quote:Originally posted by joueur: The degree of sexual desire should be taken into consideration. A woman if even saw a naked guy will not be affected as a male will be.
quote:Originally posted by joueur: The degree of sexual desire should be taken into consideration. A woman if even saw a naked guy will not be affected as a male will be.
Says who??? How do you know??? Are you a man or a woman??
You are extremely misled if you are a man cause women are highly sexual also. I would rephrase that statement to be this- " The degree of sexual desire should be taken into consideration. SOME women will not be affected as a male will be because they can control their sexual attractions better than a man. We will not run up to a man we find hot and sensual and start grabbing his dick or trying to hump his leg !
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: No, because there is no indication in the religious texts that men should cover their faces, and men aren't judged by society for their looks in the same way as women are.
I would have to disagree with this newcomer; IMO men are just as scrutinized & judged on their appearance as women are in egypt.
It may not be obvious but it's there, women are more subtle about it, plus they are under more scrutiny I admit, hence we don't often hear about.
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by joueur: The degree of sexual desire should be taken into consideration. A woman if even saw a naked guy will not be affected as a male will be.
? What ? That's like saying a man and a woman are both in a rainstorm, but since the man is (usually) larger in build than the woman he will get wetter and so only he needs the umbrella the woman would not. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: women will not be affected as a male will be because they can control their sexual attractions better than a man.
Now, That is true. A woman can control her sexual attractions and that is somehow easy but no way for a man Posts: 338 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: My husband has some cousins who are niqab'd but I was shy to ask them and only one speaks English well enough to understand anyway. I was just curious, thanks for the feedback. BTW, they show hair in front of me when we're all alone, not sure if they would in front of friends or because we're family now. Thanks again.
* How does she eat in public?
Smuckers, I've seen women in restaurants in Luxor and Cairo, elegantly managing the considerable restrictions the niqab brings to eating. Hopefully, your husband's relatives will share their views with you. Some find the niqab intimadating but the women behind the veils have always been kind and warm to me. I have had many conversations in Egypt with fully covered women, on trains, on the metro, under hotel sun shades, in shops and have not had a single negative experience.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I will agree with that SWYS, the Niqab'd women I have spoken with and met and have been extremely warm and SOOO kind, much more beyond my expectations. I have the highest respect for them, truly. Thanks for your feedback and thanks to everyone else. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I disagree, I find the male face much more appealing, then again I'm not lesbian. I always wondered the same thing, why is the male figure considered so much less desirable? To whom? I don't gawk and stare at a woman the way I would a man, and believe me there is plenty about a man's legs that get my attention the same as with his arms/chest/shoulders, etc. God help me when I visit Mecca.
I believe that FGM is the male solution to cure this problem of women lusting after them . Go figure, in the west men want you to lust after them in these countries men want to punish you for it. As I see it, women have to cover up because arab men cannot seem to control their urges so it becomes our responsiblity. However, men can walk around anyway they see fit and women are either expected to not have those urges or they have been butchered to not feel them- All because of ignorance.. They would seriously have to kill me before I would wear one of those things
It is obvious (walhamdulillah) that your views are COMPLETELY different from Islaam. Just because someone is Arab doesn't give him the license to represent Islaam. However, it is unfortunate that SOME Arabs do misrepresent their religion.
Again there is a huge difference today between Culture, Race, Nationalaity and Islaam.
Sure I agree with this^.Of course my views are not the same as islam, I am not muslim. Actually I find it to be only insecure shitheads would beat their wives, only self-important ignorant scum of the earth would want their wives and daughters to lose part of their womenhood and cover them and hide them like property.
I should have clarified this that I am talking about these kind of men, cause I know many kind loving muslim men that would rather kill themselves than to hurt the woman that they love-my SH being one of them.
Women have the same rights as a man, sands.You argue frequently about the hijab in islam, and yes this is your right to do. However, I dont see this as a mans right of decision. This is personal to a woman. The niquab does nothing to hide a woman, it makes her stand out more!The whole problem is countries like saudi arabia Require woman to do this- religion is a personal choice and men shouldnt be allowed to make this decision for them nor ridicule or degrade them when they chose not to wear it.
You must have me confused with someone else. I have nevered argued about the niqab on this forum prior to yesterday.
I don't force my wife to wear the niqab. I think you missed my previous post wherein I clearly stated that my wife wore the niqab many years BEFORE we were married. The niqab for her is a PERSONAL choice for her.
I find it hard to accept women who want to show off their bodies and display themselves in a disrespectful manner. Like the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said about the signs of the Day of Judgement:
"Women will be clothed but yet still naked!"
I don't know if you have evered travelled to Europe? Everywhere you turn there is ludeness and nakeness. When are displayed like sexual objects. Topless pictures on billboard advertisements in the Metro (subway or tube stations). After about 11pm the televison is loaded with haram sex stripper programs. Phonesex adverstisements etc, etc, etc.
The way women are treated and displayed in European countries can no-way in my opinion compare to what Islaam (and I didn't say culture or Arabs) says who women should be respected and treated.
I can go on but I won't. Those who get the picture will understand my point and those who are from Europe or have visisted European countries will surely know what I am speaking of. Ask someone from Germany (I lived there for some time)asked them how many are treated there and viewed. Then come and talk to me.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: women will not be affected as a male will be because they can control their sexual attractions better than a man.
Now, That is true. A woman can control her sexual attractions and that is somehow easy but no way for a man
You should try yoga or raikii, that might help you with your problem Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by joueur: The degree of sexual desire should be taken into consideration. A woman if even saw a naked guy will not be affected as a male will be.
poppycock!
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: No, because there is no indication in the religious texts that men should cover their faces, and men aren't judged by society for their looks in the same way as women are.
Granted, I can understand the mentioning of it in religious text as a reason but it does raise the question once again as to why it is in the religious text for the woman to cover her face and not the man.
I believe that you have read many of the justifications for that in all those articles I gave you the link for. And Islam isn't alone as a religion that refers to women covering more of their body than men.
quote:As far as men not being judged by society for their appearance, are you quite certain about this? Do you think that race or obesity or even a tall man vs a short is not an obstacle for a man in society? Do you not think that men are judged by these things? Come on, be realistic.
Did I say that? No, I said that they are not judged in the same way as women. Visual judgement of women is different from that of men, even if you don't want it to be.
quote:Surly you are not implying that a woman fully covered has more opportunities because no one can tell if she is ugly or not; are you?
I mentioned "ugly" women just to make a point about visual judgement of women.
I guess it depends how you define "opportunties" whether wearing a niqab would give you more of them or not. If you are referring to opportunities in terms of work, most women who choose to wear a niqab aren't looking for a wide range of work opportunities as, if they want to work, they have their own criteria of what sort of work would suit their chosen way of life.
However, if they do find work in an environment they feel happy with, they gain the opportunity to work without harrassment or being eyed-up by male colleagues, to work without distraction from office-based gossip about the latest scandals and which fashions they should be wearing, they are often given priority for seats on public transport, treated respectfully by those around them, and helped to maintain their religious beliefs and practices. Although these may not seem important to you, they can be to a working woman who wears niqab.
My a lot has happened while I was out.
NewComer: Yes you are right that other religions talk about woman wearing modest apparel and covering their head. I personally don't know of another religion that says a woman should cover her "face".
So, you do admit that men are judge by their appearance as well as women. You just feel the judgment is different. How so?
You point out that woman choose to wear the face covering. Let's examine this. I see that in Egypt covering the face and even the head is an option. Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that all the woman who cover their face in Egypt are doing so because they choose too. Yet, from what I have seen in pictures of Egypt, most of the woman choose not to cover their face. (Is this correct?) But there are some countries that it is against the law for a woman not to cover her face. So all of the woman in these cultures have their face covered. Comparing this to Egypt we can assume that most of the women in these countries do not choose to cover their face but are FORCED to cover their face.
As far as being eyed up goes...I can pretty much guarantee that if a woman walked around here with her face covered she would be eyed upped more than a woman in normal attire. She would also be judged by her appearance.
quote:SOME women will not be affected as a male will be because they can control their sexual attractions better than a man. We will not run up to a man we find hot and sensual and start grabbing his dick or trying to hump his leg !
Don't be so coy Rumi. We "ALL" do it here in America. Heck, we have leg humping parties. It's called girls night out. We girls load in the van and head for the nearest mall and hump till our hearts desire...You can see it up and down the halls. The men seem to enjoy it and humor us by not walking away till we are done. Ain't that America? Just ask LML...she will tell you.
(Sorry but the humping comment just begged to be exploited)
quote: quote: Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: women will not be affected as a male will be because they can control their sexual attractions better than a man.
Now, That is true. A woman can control her sexual attractions and that is somehow easy but no way for a man
This is absurd. I'm with doddlebug on this....poppycock! Men here control themselves quite well. They would go to jail if they didn't. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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I can see why some may question the level of covering in the Islamic dress code, but to question the inequality in it needs a reality check.
The inequality in dress requirements between men and women is universal. Indecent exposure laws all over the world expressly discriminate between men and women. A man can walk topless in New York without breaking the law, but if a woman walks topless she goes to jail. I don't see an outcry about inequality there.
Posts: 374 | From: men gheir laff w dawaran | Registered: Sep 2007
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Don't be so coy Rumi. We "ALL" do it here in America. Heck, we have leg humping parties. It's called girls night out. We girls load in the van and head for the nearest mall and hump till our hearts desire...You can see it up and down the halls. The men seem to enjoy it and humor us by not walking away till we are done. Ain't that America? Just ask LML...she will tell you.
(Sorry but the humping comment just begged to be exploited) Leg Humping here we say " Get your leg over " But i like your's better . Posts: 110 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: My husband has some cousins who are niqab'd but I was shy to ask them and only one speaks English well enough to understand anyway. I was just curious, thanks for the feedback. BTW, they show hair in front of me when we're all alone, not sure if they would in front of friends or because we're family now. Thanks again.
* How does she eat in public?
Smuckers, I've seen women in restaurants in Luxor and Cairo, elegantly managing the considerable restrictions the niqab brings to eating. Hopefully, your husband's relatives will share their views with you. Some find the niqab intimadating but the women behind the veils have always been kind and warm to me. I have had many conversations in Egypt with fully covered women, on trains, on the metro, under hotel sun shades, in shops and have not had a single negative experience.
I suggest a reform for the munaqqabas to open another hole for the mouth to be able to eat….. Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Politically Incorrect: Ladies and gentlemen,
I can see why some may question the level of covering in the Islamic dress code, but to question the inequality in it needs a reality check.
The inequality in dress requirements between men and women is universal. Indecent exposure laws all over the world expressly discriminate between men and women. A man can walk topless in New York without breaking the law, but if a woman walks topless she goes to jail. I don't see an outcry about inequality there.
No one is talking about exposing their breast. We are talking about people being able to see your face. For a woman to be able to smile at a child, to eat an ice cream cone, to feel the sunshine, to smell a rose.
The only men I know of who cover their face are criminals or people at costume parties. It was pointed out earlier that you could tell who the woman was by their shape. If someone is inside a tent you cannot tell who they are or even if they are female or male. I don't see how living isolated from other humans makes a person closer to God. It separates the person from natural human affection.
It is ridiculous for a woman to feel that exposing her face so others can see her humanity will cause ALL men to fall into unforgivable sin. No woman is that beautiful and most men are not that shallow. If a man is to loose control of his own self and rape a woman it is not out of desire. Nor is it the fault of the woman. Rape is not an act of passion but an act of aggression.
And I am not talking about walking around in a g-string ether, that is the other extreme.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: No one is talking about exposing their breast. We are talking about people being able to see your face.
Exactly, so we are talking about degree of covering, not inequality in covering. I perfectly understand how people can question the degree. However, I was pointing out why questioning the inequality here does not hold water.
Posts: 374 | From: men gheir laff w dawaran | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: No, because there is no indication in the religious texts that men should cover their faces, and men aren't judged by society for their looks in the same way as women are.
I would have to disagree with this newcomer; IMO men are just as scrutinized & judged on their appearance as women are in egypt.
It may not be obvious but it's there, women are more subtle about it, plus they are under more scrutiny I admit, hence we don't often hear about.
LOL, I never denied that women don't judge men by their appearances! I am well aware how my own gender looks at men!
But I was meaning as a whole, in society...when I start to see adverts in Egypt asking for attractive men to fulfil work vacancies, then maybe we can say that men are looked at in the same way as women.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE] It was pointed out earlier that you could tell who the woman was by their shape. If someone is inside a tent you cannot tell who they are or even if they are female or male.
It is ridiculous for a woman to feel that exposing her face so others can see her humanity will cause ALL men to fall into unforgivable sin.
As it seems from these comments that you are only using my posts selectively to reinforce your exaggerated stereotypes about the Muslim world, I will just answer a few of your points briefly.
quote:So, you do admit that men are judge by their appearance as well as women.
As I never denied that this was the case, I will leave whoever did say that to defend their position.
quote:You point out that woman choose to wear the face covering. Let's examine this. I see that in Egypt covering the face and even the head is an option. Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that all the woman who cover their face in Egypt are doing so because they choose too. Yet, from what I have seen in pictures of Egypt, most of the woman choose not to cover their face. (Is this correct?) But there are some countries that it is against the law for a woman not to cover her face. So all of the woman in these cultures have their face covered. Comparing this to Egypt we can assume that most of the women in these countries do not choose to cover their face but are FORCED to cover their face.
Yes, it is correct that most of the women in Egypt choose not to cover their face, and that it is only a small minority who do wear a niqab, for many different reasons, some of which I tried to explain earlier.
As to the contention that some countries actually have a law that forces women to wear niqab; the only country that I know of that has any sort of regulation (I'm not sure if it actually comes to the level of being a law) about covering the face is Saudi Arabia, and as that country with 27 million people contains less than 2% of the 1.6 billion Muslim world population, I think it is a bit unrealistic to try to generalize this regulation to imply that most Muslim women outside Egypt are forced to wear it. I believe also, that the "regulations" in Saudi do not apply evenly throughout the country and are mainly related to Makkah and Madinah, which have joint populations of around 2 million.
Also, having been to Saudi Arabia and walked around Makkah and Madinah, both alone and in the company of other Muslim women, none of us wearing niqabs, and having been served in shops, stayed in hotels, visited organizations, and received medical treatment, I can say from first-hand experience that not all women in Saudi Arabia wear niqabs and any regulation that there may be is not universally enforced.
quote:As far as being eyed up goes...I can pretty much guarantee that if a woman walked around here with her face covered she would be eyed upped more than a woman in normal attire.
Having lived in the States and having worked and spent time with women there who do wear niqabs, I have seen how Americans look at women in niqab. In British English, we use the phrase "eyed-up" in the context I used it, to mean that men look at women in a way that reveals a sexual interest, and the niqabis in the States were not eyed-up in that way.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote: quote: Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE] It was pointed out earlier that you could tell who the woman was by their shape. If someone is inside a tent you cannot tell who they are or even if they are female or male.
It is ridiculous for a woman to feel that exposing her face so others can see her humanity will cause ALL men to fall into unforgivable sin.
As it seems from these comments that you are only using my posts selectively to reinforce your exaggerated stereotypes about the Muslim world, I will just answer a few of your points briefly.
No, YOU are stereotyping the whole Muslim world. I am talking about woman who cover themselves from head to toe so they are not recognizable. Don't put words in my mouth and don't even imply that I am being raciest. I have not said anything against dressing modestly or wearing the hijib.
The implication of the woman not being able to show her face in public is that even the woman's face is a sex organ. You have lowered the woman to nothing more than an object for the pleasure of a man. From this perspective it is the same as is done in a strip club, just a different expression of it.
I have no doubt that there are woman who believe that they are serving God by doing this act. What I am saying is that the idea that covering a woman's face is serving God is frankly ludicrous. It is nothing more that something imposed on woman to "keep them in their place" as some might say. In my opinion the men who encourage their woman to stay nothing more than their sex object are insecure men who are bad lovers with small penises. Also, the idea that it is the woman's job to keep the man from lusting is somewhat hypocritical. Here the man is supposed to be the stronger one, yet if he sins it is the fault of the woman. poppycock!!! (I like the word doodlebug, hope you don't mind me using it)A man secure with himself would encourage his love to be all that she can be, not keep her oppressed.
quote:LOL, I never denied that women don't judge men by their appearances! I am well aware how my own gender looks at men!
But I was meaning as a whole, in society...when I start to see adverts in Egypt asking for attractive men to fulfil work vacancies, then maybe we can say that men are looked at in the same way as women.
I was talking about how society judges men...Please read what I have wrote before making a wrong comment on it.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I have no doubt that there are woman who believe that they are serving God by doing this act. What I am saying is that the idea that covering a woman's face is serving God is frankly ludicrous.
Whether or not it's serving God is something that will be decided by God alone. I may disagree with the conclusion that covering the face is required in Islam, but I have nothing but admiration for someone who takes the trouble to do it in the face of all of this ridicule because they believe it is required.
BTW, I found the "ludicrous" characterization to be in poor taste. Just think of how you would feel if someone characterized an aspect of your religion as ludicrous.
Posts: 374 | From: men gheir laff w dawaran | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE]You have lowered the woman to nothing more than an object for the pleasure of a man.
...It is nothing more that something imposed on woman to "keep them in their place" as some might say. In my opinion the men who encourage their woman to stay nothing more than their sex object are insecure men who are bad lovers with small penises. Also, the idea that it is the woman's job to keep the man from lusting is somewhat hypocritical. Here the man is supposed to be the stronger one, yet if he sins it is the fault of the woman.
It is you who are lowering Muslim women to mindless creatures whose actions are determined by men. If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I gave you a whole list of reasons why women choose to wear the niqab. If it is too difficult for you to understand why a woman would choose to do this, that's fair enough, but to then imply that she would only have done it because it is imposed on her by a man, because that is easier for you to understand, then you are very much mistaken.
quote:I was talking about how society judges men...Please read what I have wrote before making a wrong comment on it.
My dear, when I am replying to you I will quote you, that comment was addressed, as can be seen from the quote, to VB!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote: You must have me confused with someone else. I have nevered argued about the niqab on this forum prior to yesterday.
I don't force my wife to wear the niqab. I think you missed my previous post wherein I clearly stated that my wife wore the niqab many years BEFORE we were married. The niqab for her is a PERSONAL choice for her.
I find it hard to accept women who want to show off their bodies and display themselves in a disrespectful manner. Like the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said about the signs of the Day of Judgement:
"Women will be clothed but yet still naked!"
I don't know if you have evered travelled to Europe? Everywhere you turn there is ludeness and nakeness. When are displayed like sexual objects. Topless pictures on billboard advertisements in the Metro (subway or tube stations). After about 11pm the televison is loaded with haram sex stripper programs. Phonesex adverstisements etc, etc, etc.
The way women are treated and displayed in European countries can no-way in my opinion compare to what Islaam (and I didn't say culture or Arabs) says who women should be respected and treated.
I can go on but I won't. Those who get the picture will understand my point and those who are from Europe or have visisted European countries will surely know what I am speaking of. Ask someone from Germany (I lived there for some time)asked them how many are treated there and viewed. Then come and talk to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasnt addressing your decision with your wife. If your wife chooses to wear the niquab it is her choice, I certainly am not going to judge women who wear niquab as long as it is her personal choice. What I have a problem with is men judging women who choose not to wear one as immoral or having her husband force this decision on her based on his insecurities. If she is wearing the niquab based on anything else other than her feeling inside herself that she wants to do this is a violation of her rights as as an intelligent human being.
Compare a NUN to any other religious catholic female. She wears a habit and has taken a vow of chastity and pledged herself to serve god. That was a conscious decision she made based on her inner beliefs.HER OWN DECISION(not shouting, just emphasizing). Does it mean that she will go to heaven while those women who chose to marry and have children yet are devout to god won't???? Of course not. Two different types of women, each making there own decision to follow different roads to get to the same destination.Common denominator- it was their own choice.
As far as what your saying about Europe, No I have never been there. However, I am in total agreement with you. Women are defeating the purpose of freedom of choice and equality when they purposely allow their bodies to be exploited commercially for the benefit of men. I can be modest and still be free. I dress as I wish for my comfort and to please myself. However certain forms of dress are for certain occasions. Women are judged by what we wear just as men are here. I never dated a man who looks like he just rolled of the back of a garbage truck. Nor would I date one who has to get a manicure every week,buys all his face care products from macys or has to gel and style his ass hair. Modesty and personal care in your appearance does not have to equal exploitation.
In the end its about personal choice sands, thats all. It's not about me degrading Islam, its just about perceptions and women having the rights to make their own decisions...
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: That's kind of you to care about my marriage and husbands' feelings...I have, in fact, made this statement before in front of him and others and it was (as is this discussion) merely for discussion/argument sake. We cannot deny that women have eyes and sexual needs/thoughts the same as men. Why is it only the men who are protected against seeing it? At mecca the men go around wearing less than is normally allowed, do you not think women look at the muscles and/or curves or their arms/shoulders/chest? Of course we do! We are tempted as much as anybody. I will be the first to say that I think men would cheat or have a sexual relationship out of wedlock based on sight and women based on feeling, but that still doesn't stop the women from looking and thinking. It's difficult enough for us to avoid other things haram in this life without having to be thinking, 'wow he looks very nice and masculine, ohhh oops, once more about the kaaba'. (ok that was more for drama). My point is that we have eyes and we think just as much as the men do, it's just that few will really admit it. Somewhere we were told to believe it is only the men who have impure thoughts..humph.
The degree of sexual desire should be taken into consideration. A woman if even saw a naked guy will not be affected as a male will be.
^ Therein lies the very premise of hijab and veiling in the first place. It is the very notion that men have less control over their sexual desire than women.
In fact many early Arab writings describe female sexuality as a beast that must be caged or controlled. These writings are telling and likely reflect psychological projection of the men who wrote it and in fact describe their own sexuality.
Posts: 26268 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by joueur: A woman if even saw a naked guy will not be affected as a male will be.
Could you explain what made you come to this conclusion?
Well he's either a man or a very frigid female, thats about the only excuse I could come up with for such a statement Dalia! Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE]You have lowered the woman to nothing more than an object for the pleasure of a man.
...It is nothing more that something imposed on woman to "keep them in their place" as some might say. In my opinion the men who encourage their woman to stay nothing more than their sex object are insecure men who are bad lovers with small penises. Also, the idea that it is the woman's job to keep the man from lusting is somewhat hypocritical. Here the man is supposed to be the stronger one, yet if he sins it is the fault of the woman.
It is you who are lowering Muslim women to mindless creatures whose actions are determined by men. If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I gave you a whole list of reasons why women choose to wear the niqab. If it is too difficult for you to understand why a woman would choose to do this, that's fair enough, but to then imply that she would only have done it because it is imposed on her by a man, because that is easier for you to understand, then you are very much mistaken.
quote:I was talking about how society judges men...Please read what I have wrote before making a wrong comment on it.
My dear, when I am replying to you I will quote you, that comment was addressed, as can be seen from the quote, to VB!
Politically Incorrect, There is a difference between truths and dogma in religion. Religious truths are universal, dogma is not. I,am talking about religious dogma. Here again you testifying that all who cover their face are those that want to. Why is it that no one here will admit that some and possibly most who cover their face are forced to or made to feel guilty if they do not?
Something else that is not addressed here is that these people are covered so as no one can tell who they are. How is that appropriate in society. They could conceal anything. They can rob a bank and no one could tell if they are male or female.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE]Here again you testifying that all who cover their face are those that want to. Why is it that no one here will admit that some and possibly most who cover their face are forced to or made to feel guilty if they do not?
No, my dear, it's you talking in absolutes, not me if you actually read back over what I have written. I NEVER said that ALL women choose it and that NO women are encouraged/forced to wear it, I am not that stupid, as I am probably much more aware of what goes on in the Muslim world than I guess you are.
I was trying to give another side to the picture, one that is usually not expected by those who don't wear niqabs or are not Muslims. The usual assumption is that women are made to do it by a man, and that, in today's society, with the current increase in the number of women wearing niqabs generally isn't the case. It may have been a long time ago, or in rural areas where some women tend to be more compliant, but most of the women who are starting to wear them these days in the West and the East, in increasing numbers, are educated women who made a choice, often against the wishes of their husbands/fathers/significant men in their lives.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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To understand this, we should approach some factors and the degree of responsiveness of a male and a female to all of them. Let's mention some of them; touch, sight, scent...
Posts: 338 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE]Here again you testifying that all who cover their face are those that want to. Why is it that no one here will admit that some and possibly most who cover their face are forced to or made to feel guilty if they do not?
No, my dear, it's you talking in absolutes, not me if you actually read back over what I have written. I NEVER said that ALL women choose it and that NO women are encouraged/forced to wear it, I am not that stupid, as I am probably much more aware of what goes on in the Muslim world than I guess you are.
I was trying to give another side to the picture, one that is usually not expected by those who don't wear niqabs or are not Muslims. The usual assumption is that women are made to do it by a man, and that, in today's society, with the current increase in the number of women wearing niqabs generally isn't the case. It may have been a long time ago, or in rural areas where some women tend to be more compliant, but most of the women who are starting to wear them these days in the West and the East, in increasing numbers, are educated women who made a choice, often against the wishes of their husbands/fathers/significant men in their lives.
Yes Newcomer you make a VERY VALID POINT. Most (NOT all) of the women today wear the niqab because THEY choose to. They are not forced to wear it. It is a personal choice for them.
You are also correct in stating that many of them wear the niqab in opposition of the wishes or their fathers/husbands and family members.
Many of those who are opposed to the niqab feel that their niqabi relatives:
1. Won't find husbands. 2. Won't find suitable jobs. 3. Won't be accepted in society.
And a host of other reasons. However, the opposite is true. Countries like Egypt, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabic show fully that women can choose to wear the niqab and still live EXTREMELY productive lives, both in the home and work environment.
One Egyptian niqabi wrote that her niqab does not hinder her lifestyle. She's unmarried, is a Educator (English Teacher), comes from a High Socia standard family i.e. Wealth Family. Attends the naadi for exercise and sports and dine in resturants with her girlfriends etc.
It all boils down to the individual. However, Islaam is being revived again and women are choosing to exercise their religious beliefs and that is choosing to wear niqab as thier own personal choice.
I've said this before. 10 years ago in Egypt you did not see women wearing hijab (scarves) as you to today in abundance. 10 years ago the hijab was non-existant in Egypt. I am off of the metro with my wife this week and it was at a time when school was being let out and the kids were going home. I was so happy and surpised at the amount of young girls/women covering with hijab. I would go as far as saying that 95% of them were covered mashaa Allah. I told my wife you will see (God Willing) in the next 5-10 years half of them wearing niqabs. The niqab will become a normal thing here in Egypt. I am sure of it. You can even observed them wearing niqab in the government offices now. I have seen it with my own eyes.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE]You have lowered the woman to nothing more than an object for the pleasure of a man.
...It is nothing more that something imposed on woman to "keep them in their place" as some might say. In my opinion the men who encourage their woman to stay nothing more than their sex object are insecure men who are bad lovers with small penises. Also, the idea that it is the woman's job to keep the man from lusting is somewhat hypocritical. Here the man is supposed to be the stronger one, yet if he sins it is the fault of the woman.
It is you who are lowering Muslim women to mindless creatures whose actions are determined by men. If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I gave you a whole list of reasons why women choose to wear the niqab. If it is too difficult for you to understand why a woman would choose to do this, that's fair enough, but to then imply that she would only have done it because it is imposed on her by a man, because that is easier for you to understand, then you are very much mistaken.
quote:I was talking about how society judges men...Please read what I have wrote before making a wrong comment on it.
My dear, when I am replying to you I will quote you, that comment was addressed, as can be seen from the quote, to VB!
Politically Incorrect, There is a difference between truths and dogma in religion. Religious truths are universal, dogma is not. I,am talking about religious dogma. Here again you testifying that all who cover their face are those that want to. Why is it that no one here will admit that some and possibly most who cover their face are forced to or made to feel guilty if they do not?
Something else that is not addressed here is that these people are covered so as no one can tell who they are. How is that appropriate in society. They could conceal anything. They can rob a bank and no one could tell if they are male or female.
I can see it is hard for you to understand why a woman would choose to cover her face. It has been explained by many different people an ALL of them Muslims.
No, Muslim women DON'T cover themselves up so that they can rob a bank. Again it has been explained that they cover themselves up for religious reasons. Robbing a bank goes against that theory i.e. non-religous action.
It may not be acceptable to cover your face in a non-Muslim society, however, in a Muslim society is perfectly acceptable and respected.
People who rob banks wear security or police uniforms all the time. No-one suggest that security guards or policemen/women shouldn't wear uniforms because people will imitate them and wear their uniforms to rob banks. When someone who is not a police office wears a their uniform aren't they too in fact concealing their identity?
The niqab and covering from ahead toe in a abayah or isdhal is a part of Islaam. It isn't going to to away and whether you believe it or not MILLIONS of women choose to wear the niqab, just a MILLON of women choose NOT to wear the niqab.
Our clothing define who we are or who we claim to be. You can tell a police officer, a fire figher, a paramedic, Judge, Pilot, Mailman, A Catholic Priest, a Jew, etc from their clothing. A Muslim/Muslimah too have clothing which define who they are. Yes, the niqab define and makes a statement on what type of people are behind the veil. Yes, there will be people who abuse the clothing for whatever reasons, but for those who wear it for religious reason it's purpose and intent is clear.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by joueur: The degree of sexual desire should be taken into consideration. A woman if even saw a naked guy will not be affected as a male will be.
YOU FOOL....have you ever use your brain in thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 8 | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by joueur: To understand this, we should approach some factors and the degree of responsiveness of a male and a female to all of them. Let's mention some of them; touch, sight, scent...
Why don't you just answer my question?
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Wooow Watcher you did not write anything showing you have any kind of brain. That should prompt us to ask if you actually have any kind of brain.
I don't take orders from people. I was kind and write some points for you to think of. That was enough I do not need to answer your question directly.
Posts: 338 | Registered: Oct 2007
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I didn't give you an order; I politely asked you a question because I was seriously interested in an answer. If you make a statement in a discussion, it's quite normal that you're being asked to explain your opinion ... i.e, is it based on personal experience, on things you've gathered talking to men or women, on things you've read or whatever.
If you're not able to even briefly explain a statement you've made yourself, you obviously aren't able to participate in an intelligent discussion. And your irritated reaction and evasive behaviour makes me conclude that you don't have an answer, but were just repeating things you've heard or read.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thank God that the Muslim woman have a way to protect themselves. Apparently the Muslim men are so sex crazed that even the sight of a woman's face causes them to loose all control. No wonder the husbands are afraid to let their wives be in the same room with a man. They know themselves very well.
Through out ES you can see that even the women who are happily married to Arab men are warning us against them. Apparently they got one of the very few good ones.
Has anyone considered that a better solution would be to cut the mans penis off? Isn't that the remedy for calming down the woman's sex drive. This way you can remove the focus of always having to try to keep from having any sexual desires. Then when the man marries his 4 wives he would really be doing it for their benefit, and the wives who are not really interested in sex wont have to be bothered with it. With the distraction of sex removed you can spend more time in devotion to God.
Another solution might be to pluck his eyes out. I have read on here where some are advocating cutting hands off.
Really, thanks everyone for warning me. I will have to remember to bring a body guard when I visit an Arab country. Or at least not let a Muslim man see me.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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Nice to see how much insight you gained from our discussion, of_gold, and how open-minded and tolerant you are of other's beliefs and practices Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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I also conclude that you don't have any ability to discover some facts by yourself. You need a dictation system to learn.
Posts: 338 | Registered: Oct 2007
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Your reply is quite cryptic. What does this have to do with learning or discovering facts? Your personal opinion does not necessarily equal a fact. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thank you for noticing newcomer. I can't tell you how tempted I am to cut off my clitoris, cover myself, and marry a man with 3 other wives who can take care of me. What a life of ease not having to worry about how you look or any material financial things. Just lift up your skirt a quarter of the year and pray he finishes quickly.
Silly idealistic me wants to be in love with my husband and enjoy his love making. A more difficult road, I know, but what a glorious reward. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by joueur: That opinion stems from a fact.
Yeah right.
quote:Originally posted by joueur: I think You do lift your skirit the whole year in USA or Do you usually wear skirts or something?
Errr ... we were talking about whether women get excited by the sight of a naked man or not. What does that have to do with my nationality or the kind of clothes I wear? Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: I've said this before. 10 years ago in Egypt you did not see women wearing hijab (scarves) as you to today in abundance. 10 years ago the hijab was non-existant in Egypt.
Sorry sands i disagree, I first lived in Egypt back in 1994 (13 years ago) and alot of women wore headscarfs. The whole of my husbands female married/engaged releatives all wore headscarfs. In fact the last time i visited Egypt (sadly 3 years ago) i was shocked how some women were dressed when my hubby and i went out in evening. Tight jeans/tops. I am not saying that is wrong i do feel it their choice and who are we to judge them but i felt Cairo had changed and the women had become more 'westernised' if you get my meaning.
One thing i might also add is that you said you felt happy that young girls are now wearing headscarfs, i can't understand that. If the headscarf is worn by women by choice and it is because men are unable to control themselves surely they would not be looking at young girls! Why make young girls into a sexual object?
When i taught at a private school near giza a female teacher was was giving leaflet to the children about the benefits of covering. She was sacked, the head wanted the kids to enjoy their childhoods without fear or guilt - i agree with her as did the parents.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote: I've said this before. 10 years ago in Egypt you did not see women wearing hijab (scarves) as you to today in abundance. 10 years ago the hijab was non-existant in Egypt.
Sorry sands i disagree, I first lived in Egypt back in 1994 (13 years ago) and alot of women wore headscarfs. The whole of my husbands female married/engaged releatives all wore headscarfs. In fact the last time i visited Egypt (sadly 3 years ago) i was shocked how some women were dressed when my hubby and i went out in evening. Tight jeans/tops. I am not saying that is wrong i do feel it their choice and who are we to judge them but i felt Cairo had changed and the women had become more 'westernised' if you get my meaning.
One thing i might also add is that you said you felt happy that young girls are now wearing headscarfs, i can't understand that. If the headscarf is worn by women by choice and it is because men are unable to control themselves surely they would not be looking at young girls! Why make young girls into a sexual object?
When i taught at a private school near giza a female teacher was was giving leaflet to the children about the benefits of covering. She was sacked, the head wanted the kids to enjoy their childhoods without fear or guilt - i agree with her as did the parents.
Take care
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by happybunny: One thing i might also add is that you said you felt happy that young girls are now wearing headscarfs, i can't understand that. If the headscarf is worn by women by choice and it is because men are unable to control themselves surely they would not be looking at young girls! Why make young girls into a sexual object?
When i taught at a private school near giza a female teacher was was giving leaflet to the children about the benefits of covering. She was sacked, the head wanted the kids to enjoy their childhoods without fear or guilt - i agree with her as did the parents.
Take care [/QB]
I was going to write something else in response to your post. However, I had some internet trouble and it got deleted. We (Muslims) say: Qadrullahi wa masha fa'ala.
The bottomline (IMO) is that is this, women and girls wear the niqab, head scarf, khimar or just plain cover because Allah advises them to do so and here is my Islamic Proof: "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters, and the women of the believers to draw their cloak (veils) all over thier bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgivng, Moost Merciful. Suratul Ahzab verse 59
It is a commandment from Allah to the women and especially the believing to cover themselves properly. It is a commandment from the Creator and Allah does not burden a person beyond his scope[b]. Suratul Baqarah verse 286.
I don't find it strange that you would agree that a Muslim Teacher should be fired because she was fired because she was passing ou leaflets to children telling them the [b]benefitsof covering. What I do find it strange is that Muslim agreed she should have been fired. Allah tells us: "Remind the believers, because in the Rememberance is benefit." This teacher was only doing her job as a Teacher an Educator and she was also fulfilling a responsibility of a Muslim/Muslimah as commanded by Allah Azza wa Jal.
This must have been one of those Modern Day Schools with Western Thinking where you taught and therefore the reason (Western Thinking) she fired was because Western Ideas often conflict with Islamic principles and so those who attend, teach and often time those who send thier children to those types of school often have values that are opposed to Islam or do not completely adhere to the Islamic tenants.
I find it backwards thinking that encouraging our young girls to cover properly even at a young age means that they will be sacraficing their childhood. How does wearing head scarf or khimar stop a child from playing and enjoying life as you call it? I see young girls playing (and joyfully I might add) outside my home everyday. They are able to do the same things that a young girls does who DOES NOT WEAR a head scarf.
I close with a few verses from the Holy Quran (translated):
And of mankin, there are some (hypocrite) who say: "We believe in Allah and the the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.
They (think to) decieve Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves and perceive it not!
In their heart is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease, A painful forment in theirs because they used to tell lies.
And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth." They say: "We are only peace makers."
Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not. Suratul Baraqah verses 8-12
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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