quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Do women get to have sex with there slaves in Islam too?
I don't know. Honestly, Dalia might have the answer to that one..I've never heard anything regarding this issue.
However, from the ayat I venture to say NO. This is the right that men have only, but I could be wrong.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: [qb]It's like weightlifting i.e very relaxing!
Dalia wrote:
quote:So do you think I should try shagging four men instead of doing weightlifting?
No I don't think so. If you have the right man, One would be enough inshaa Allah.
Dalia wrote:
quote:So could I consider my cleaning guy a slave? Or any other dude who works for me?
No! Maids or cleaning guys/girls can not be considered concubine..this includes any other people who work for you.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: No I don't think so. If you have the right man, One would be enough inshaa Allah.
Can you prove this? Why would you want four wives and several concubines / slaves for yourself, but deny me the right to the same?!? Do you have any evidence that it should be forbidden for me?
And can you prove from Qur'an or ahadeeth that you are allowed to have four wives for relaxation? I couldn't find the word for relaxation (istaraa7a) anywhere in the verses about polygamy ...
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: No I don't think so. If you have the right man, One would be enough inshaa Allah.
Can you prove this? Why would you want four wives and several concubines / slaves for yourself, but deny me the right to the same?!? Do you have any evidence that it should be forbidden for me?
And can you prove from Qur'an or ahadeeth that you are allowed to have four wives for relaxation? I couldn't find the word for relaxation (istaraa7a) anywhere in the verses about polygamy ...
No my response was not denying you anything.. It was a suggestion only. Maybe you have a high sex drive and have to go and get some slaves like ayisha wa allahu alim.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: off out to get me a few male 'slaves'
Don't bother Ayisha! They are fresh out at the store!
Not true..you have to have the right sources..
You've been looking in the wrong place.
Hint: They are not at City Stars or City Center either!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
The freaks come out at night..the freaks come out at night..anybody remember that song?
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: No I don't think so. If you have the right man, One would be enough inshaa Allah.
Can you prove this? Why would you want four wives and several concubines / slaves for yourself, but deny me the right to the same?!? Do you have any evidence that it should be forbidden for me?
And can you prove from Qur'an or ahadeeth that you are allowed to have four wives for relaxation? I couldn't find the word for relaxation (istaraa7a) anywhere in the verses about polygamy ...
No my response was not denying you anything.. It was a suggestion only. Maybe you have a high sex drive and have to go and get some slaves like ayisha wa allahu alim.
hhmmm so one man should be enough for a woman, but one woman or even 4 isnt enough for you? ***edited out coz I was wrong**
If a woman has a high sex drive, does that scare you?
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: off out to get me a few male 'slaves'
Don't bother Ayisha! They are fresh out at the store!
you forget im in Luxor, we dont need to bother with stores, we have the Corniche Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Also Allah allowed and still alllow for a Muslim Man to have sex with his minka yameen so the issue about having sex out of married does not apply to minka yameen.
based on this then you cant really complain so heavily about Muslim women being raped by soldiers can you, as they are captives of war and therefore 'minka yameen' to those soldiers.
See, it doesnt really work does it?
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: I see you can't show a the ayat were haveing a minka yameen is forbideen. Thank you.
Also Allah allowed and still alllow for a Muslim Man to have sex with his minka yameen so the issue about having sex out of married does not apply to minka yameen.
This is hypocritical. It does apply and is sex outside of marriage. I try not to get into conflict with you but come on, you can't really believe this. How could someone believe this?
You say:
1. You can have 4 wives 2. You can have sex with children 3. You can have sex with as many slaves as you want.
Tell me where God is in this. Does your wife know you believe this way? Is this how her dad is?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Also Allah allowed and still alllow for a Muslim Man to have sex with his minka yameen so the issue about having sex out of married does not apply to minka yameen.
based on this then you cant really complain so heavily about Muslim women being raped by soldiers can you, as they are captives of war and therefore 'minka yameen' to those soldiers.
See, it doesnt really work does it?
The right is for Muslims only not kaffireen. Also the currently Iraq has it own government that is not ran by the infidels. Therefore those who are being rape by soliders are being rape.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: I see you can't show a the ayat were haveing a minka yameen is forbideen. Thank you.
Also Allah allowed and still alllow for a Muslim Man to have sex with his minka yameen so the issue about having sex out of married does not apply to minka yameen.
This is hypocritical. It does apply and is sex outside of marriage. I try not to get into conflict with you but come on, you can't really believe this. How could someone believe this?
You say:
1. You can have 4 wives 2. You can have sex with children 3. You can have sex with as many slaves as you want.
Tell me where God is in this. Does your wife know you believe this way? Is this how her dad is?
Answer to your questions:
1. Yes she believes this. 2. When a woman in Islaam reaches the age of puberty she is allowed to be married. There are conditions and it permissible. 3. Yes, you can have sex with as many slaves as you want.
Clear proofs have beeen given.
Look up your bible and see how your God authorized concubines:
We may start off by considering some comments from the Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible:
'Concubinage was practised in many ancient cultures, especially in Mesopotamia.....where a private citizen might have one or two concubines in addition to his primary wife.....a concubine was often a slave or part of the booty of war (Judges 5:30). A man might have a concubine simply as an economical form of marriage, since no dowry or bride-price was required. A concubine could add to a man's prestige by giving him two wives and thus an increased capacity for children. Such offspring were normally delivered onto the knees of the legal wife, thus establishing their legitimacy as family members. The concubine was also another servant to add to his work force.' (Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible, 1997, Vol 1, p504).
If we look at the period of the patriarchs, we immediately must note that concubinage etc is the expected 'norm' – note Scriptures such as Genesis 22:24; 35:22; 36:12, also note how concubinage was welcomed by wives who were barren: Genesis 16:1-3; 25:5-6; 1 Chronicles 1:32. If a concubine provided children for a barren wife, those children could gain an inheritance and real prestige (but they would legally be considered the wife's children – not the concubine's).
Some Bible commentators have suggested that the Lord allowed men to have more than one wife or several concubines during the period from the Great Flood until the Old Covenant in order to build up the world's population (which had obviously been decimated by the Flood), but from the time of Moses receiving the legal package on Mount Sinai, concubinage was banned. But this is totally incorrect for two reasons:
Firstly, we should not forget that the Old Covenant was given to Israel alone!
Secondly, the Old Covenant did make provision for a man having more than one wife. Please note Deuteronomy 21:15-17 !!
We must also note that Moses himself took a second wife who was an Ethiopian woman (Numbers 12:1). Moses had already married Zipporah (Exodus 2:21). Aaron and Miriam criticized their brother for taking this second wife, but they were immediately punished by the Lord for their criticism, making it plain that Moses had done no wrong in His sight (Numbers 12:1-15). Of course, it is possible that Moses' first wife had died, but the text gives no indication of this.
Yes, my wife believe in the Quran and Sunnah and sees nothing wrong with Allah Laws.
Don't know how my Father-In-law feels about concubines we haven't talked about it. However, he does have two wives that live in harmony for the last 18 years and he has 6 children his 2nd wife was a widow with one child.
Now after reading the proof from your book. Please don't call God hypocritical:D
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Galatians 28 "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise."
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Why does Islam advocate Kanizes (Slave girls)? Is it not prostitution?
Answer:
Islam does not advocate Kanizes (Slave girls).
Islam has always been against the very existence of the institution of slavery. Nevertheless, like most of the other social phenomena, slavery too, because of its deep roots in the society, could not have been abolished by a single stroke of the ruler's pen. It needed not only the provision of settlement opportunities for these slaves but also altering the social attitudes towards them. Islam, from the very beginning aimed at altering the social attitudes of the people towards slaves and slave girls. However, we see that the roots of this institution were so deep that even after twenty-three years of education, it was still not possible to completely abolish the institution. The maximum that could have been done was to give the slaves the choice of freedom, and that is exactly what Islam did.
During this process, it was necessary not only to better the social status of the slaves in the society but also to recognize the relationship between the slaves and their masters. It is in this context, that Islam has recognized the existing sexual relationship between a master and his slave girls. It must, however, be remembered that Islam has not promoted a new relationship but has accepted and recognized an existing one. In other words, Islam did not, for the first time allow sexual relations with slave girls but only recognized an already existing relationship between a slave girl and her master to be legal, for as long as the institution of slavery existed.
You have asked whether such a relationship between a slave girl and his master could be termed as 'Prostitution' or not. I believe that this question can only be asked if a person either does not know what prostitution is or is unaware of the relationship that existed between a master and his slave girl.
Prostitution has been defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica in the following words:
the practice of engaging in relatively indiscriminate sexual activity, in general with individuals other than a spouse or friend, in exchange for immediate payment in money or other valuables.
The Oxford Advanced Learner's Encyclopedic Dictionary has defined a 'Prostitute' as:
a person who offers herself/himself for sexual intercourse for money.
Keeping these definitions in mind, nobody can term the recognition of the existing relationship between a master and his slave girls as 'Prostitution'. The Qur'an has condemned those people who used to enforce prostitution upon their slave girls. We, therefore, cannot say that the Qur'an has encouraged or opened the doors for prostitution.
However, on the other hand, one may feel that the Qur'an has opened the door for extra-marital sexual relationships (fornication/ adultery) by recognizing sexual relations between a master and his slave girl. I believe that this opinion would again evidence a person's lack of true understanding about the concept of the allowed and the disallowed sexual relationships in the eyes of Islam.
The only permanent relationship that Islam has allowed is the one, which is preceded by Nikah. The relationship between a master and his slave girl was recognized and accepted in the specific conditions of the Arab society at the time of the advent of Islam. As soon as the prevalent conditions of the society changed and the institution of slavery was completely abolished, the provision of this relationship also became redundant. However, till such time as this institution existed, the relationship, which it entailed was not considered as fornication or adultery by the society. A person could have sexual relations with his slave girl, as long as she remained his slave girl. This was not a hidden relationship. It was fully recognized and supported by the society. Because of this recognition and support, it was not and cannot be considered fornication or adultery. This relationship was given a status, which, in its roots, was not very different from the relationship between a husband and a wife. For example, both these relationships were legally and, to a great extent, morally recognized by the society; and both were declared, rather than hidden, relationships.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Title: Regarding Al-Noor 24: 32 - 33, with Special Reference to Slaves
Question:
In Surah Noor, according to the translation by Picktall, Allah Almighty says:
And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.
And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful. (Al-Noor 24: 32 - 33)
Do these verses imply that sexual relations with one's slave girls not recommended or even not allowed? Do these verses in fact take steps towards the eradication of this institution? This seems to be implied in the general rule to marry their (slaves) pious regardless of their status.
Can you also elaborate on the background of the verse referring to forcing one's slaves into whoredom? Maulana Maududi has commented on the wholesale use of slaves for prostitution by their masters to earn wealth. In fact, Abdullah ibn Ubayy's wealth was earned through these means. Muhammad Asad has commented that this refers to having sexual relations with one's OWN slaves, but to me this seems inconsistent with numerous other verses of the Qur'an. At the same time, the verse says "if they would prefer their chastity". Can you especially clarify the meaning of this verse?
Thanks
Answer:
The referred verses entail directives, which are primarily aimed at two basic targets, namely guarding one's chastity and improving the status of the slaves to pave the way of freedom for them. The directives in these verses are:
To arrange for the marriage of those who, even though they desire to be married, are living a solitary life due to their circumstances;
To arrange for the marriage of the chaste among the slaves;
Those who cannot find a match for themselves, due to their poverty, they should safeguard their chastity and save themselves from crossing the limits set by the Almighty, till the time that God improves their financial condition and, thereby, removes any hindrances in their marriage;
The slaves who desire to enter into a contract of freedom with their masters, the masters should not refuse this contract. If, while in the period of the freedom contract, the slave proves himself to be deserving of freedom and yet is unable to pay his master the contracted money, the Muslim collectivity is directed to make the payment on behalf of the slave and, thereby, buy his freedom from his master.
Masters should not force their slave girls into prostitution. If any slave girl is forced into prostitution, even though she desired to live a chaste life, then the blame of her prostitution would be on her master, rather than herself.
The phrase 'if they desire chastity' is to express the great abhorrence of the act of forcing the slave girls into prostitution. It does not mean that if the slave girls do not desire to live a chaste life, then their masters may run a brothel through them. Another example of such phrase (as 'if they desire chastity') is where the Qur'an has admonished the Israelites in the following words:
"Do not sell my verses at a paltry price" (Al-Baqarah 2: 41)
The implication of the referred verse is simply that God's directives are not saleable commodities. It does not mean that you may sell of my directives, if you get a good price in return.
The verse, as should be clear from the above explanation, is prohibiting the masters from running brothels through their slave girls.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Title: Concept of Female Slaves in the Qur'an
Question:
I have recently started reading Quran with its translation and there are a few issues that disturb me. Firstly, the concept of slaves in Quran is a very disturbing one, especially considering how our religion promotes freedom and submission to Allah only. Secondly. Where Quran mentions the prohibition of illegal sexual intercourse, the only exceptions are with a person's wife or SLAVES/ CAPTIVES that their right hand possesses. Don't you think this again is a violation of basic human rights?
I understand that what I am asking may be considered blasphemic, but I am honestly looking for an answer to such questions and I also understand that my knowledge of Islam is limited. Please guide me.
Thanks
Answer:
I can tell that you are only trying to understand and that your question is not meant to be a criticism against the Almighty nor against His Divine Revelation. The Almighty knows this better than anyone. Therefore, I feel that you have nothing to worry about in this regard, Inshallah.
You write:
"Firstly, the concept of slaves in Quran is a very disturbing one, especially considering how our religion promotes freedom and submission to Allah only."
We must remain conscious of the fact that the Qur'an was revealed in an environment in which slavery was accepted as a normal social custom. This custom was around for so long that everybody accepted it. Had you and I been living there at the time, we too would have seen nothing wrong with it. Therefore, it should be cleared up at the outset that the Qur'an neither created this practice nor encouraged it in any way, shape or form. It only accepted that this has been deeply rooted in that society and would not be eradicated easily. So, a simple demand to free all slaves was unrealistic. Besides, the slaves; many of which were elderly poor people, had nowhere to go and would therefore probably end up becoming beggars and only further the burden upon society. As such, a gradual approach had to be taken for the eradication of this vice. Please remember that the steps toward this taken by the Qur'an would have been seen as abnormal to the people of the time, as keeping slaves feels to you and I. It should be recognized that slavery was a social phenomenon of an international nature, Islam could not have completely abolished slavery, while the world culture remained the same.
So let us take a look at the approach by the Qur'an toward eradicating this custom. It is well known that the Qur'an declared from the very beginning that freeing slaves is amongst a believer's acts of virtues which illustrate most beautifully, his compassion and kindness toward fellow humans. It commended and encouraged this while condemning those who were against it:
"But he has made no effort on the uphill path. And what will make you know the uphill path? It is freeing a slave, or giving food on a day of hunger, to the orphan near of kin, or to the poor person down in the dust - then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patient perseverance, and enjoin kindness and compassion." - Al Balad 90:12-13
It goes yet further by declaring that those who see any goodness in their slaves should free them and even if the slaves do not have the ability to pay for their own freedom, they should be helped towards it. Furthermore, people were forbidden from treating their slaves inhumanely and forcing them into prostitution:
"And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if you are aware of any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you. Force not your slave-girls to prostitution merely that you may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, while they would actually like to remain chaste. And if one forces them, then, after being compelled, Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful (to these slaves)." - Al Nur 24:33
Alms were only to be for certain good purposes, among which freeing slaves is again one of them:
"The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the slaves and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and for the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise." - Al Tawbah 9:60
If a person committed a sin, freeing a slave was a noble form of expiation or atonement or penance:
"Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which you deliberately make. For expiation is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith you feed your own families, or the clothing of them, or the liberation of a slave, and for him who does not find the means should fast for three days. This is the expiation for the oaths you have sworn. But keep your oaths. Thus Allah clarifies unto you His verses in order that you may be grateful." - Al Ma'idah 5:89
Prisoners of war were not to be taken as slaves but rather released as a favour or for a ransom. Historically speaking, enslaving prisoners of war was a primary mode through which a free man was made a slave, by abolishing this mode, Islam closed the doors for Muslims to add to the existing slave population in the world:
"So when you meet the rejecters in battle, smite their necks until you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favour or let them be ransomed until the war lays down its armour. That (is how it shall be); and if Allah had pleased He could have punished them (without you), but (He did not do so in order) that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never allow their deeds to be worthless." - Muhammad 47:4
From the Seerah of the Prophet (pbuh), we know that he worked in accordance to the Qur'anic verses, freeing slaves and also providing the best example of how compassionately they should be dealt with. He (pbuh) would advise people to use terms like "my son" and "my child" rather than "my slave" when referring to them. He wanted them to be considered as part of the family and thus be treated well. For this reason, the Prophet (pbuh) took the ill-treatment of slaves very seriously as can be seen from many narrations such as the following:
Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported: "When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him (i.e. that slave). I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you." (Sahih Muslim, Book 15, Hadith number 4088)
Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet (pbuh) said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names? You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity and if you do so, then help them.' (Sahih Bukhari Book 2, Hadith number 29)"
Abdullah Ibn Umar narrated that a man came to the Prophet (pbuh) and asked: "Messenger of Allah! How often shall I forgive a servant?" He gave no reply, so the man repeated what he had said, but he still kept silent. When he asked a third time, he replied: "Forgive him seventy times daily." (Abu Dawud, Book 36, Hadith number 5145)
The Prophet (pbuh) was narrated to have said; "He who slaps his slave or beats him, the expiation for it is that he should set him free" (Sahih Muslim, Book 15, Hadith number 407)
Considering all of this, I really cannot see how the Qur'an displays a "disturbing concept" in regards to slaves. Actually, I reckon that the Qur'an provided the best groundwork toward the actual abolition of slavery itself. Had the Qur'an decided to declare slavery forbidden immediately rather than gradually removing it while giving a set of rules for their better treatment in the mean time, then it would have caused various problems on different levels. In the world at the time, there were such a huge number of slaves that releasing them would have left them without food, money, jobs and care. Many of them were already very vulnerable and would therefore never have been able to cope with such a thing. The societies would never have been able to provide for them all and they may as a result have turned to illegal means to earn a living (e.g. brothels may have been opened etc). Thus, there was wisdom behind the decision to abolish slavery gradually rather than immediately.
You write:
"Secondly, where Quran mentions the prohibition of illegal sexual intercourse, the only exceptions are with a person's wife or SLAVES/ CAPTIVES that their right hand possesses."
Having explained what the social customs were at the time, it should be understood that sexual intercourse with one's slave was considered part of the norm. The slaves too saw nothing wrong in this. In fact, before the advent of Islam the slaves were considered no more than their master's possessions and therefore absolutely anything could be done with them. In other words, they could even take their slaves' lives when and as they pleased. Islam removed such vices and raised them to the position of fellow humans with similar rights. However, as long as slavery was not completely removed, having sexual relations remained part of the master-slave relationship.
I hope this enables you to get a better grasp and appreciation of the issue.
Regards,
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *: Title: Slavery in Islam
Question:
Why does Islam advocate Kanizes (Slave girls)? Is it not prostitution?
Answer:
Islam does not advocate Kanizes (Slave girls).
Islam has always been against the very existence of the institution of slavery. Nevertheless, like most of the other social phenomena, slavery too, because of its deep roots in the society, could not have been abolished by a single stroke of the ruler's pen. It needed not only the provision of settlement opportunities for these slaves but also altering the social attitudes towards them. Islam, from the very beginning aimed at altering the social attitudes of the people towards slaves and slave girls. However, we see that the roots of this institution were so deep that even after twenty-three years of education, it was still not possible to completely abolish the institution. The maximum that could have been done was to give the slaves the choice of freedom, and that is exactly what Islam did.
During this process, it was necessary not only to better the social status of the slaves in the society but also to recognize the relationship between the slaves and their masters. It is in this context, that Islam has recognized the existing sexual relationship between a master and his slave girls. It must, however, be remembered that Islam has not promoted a new relationship but has accepted and recognized an existing one. In other words, Islam did not, for the first time allow sexual relations with slave girls but only recognized an already existing relationship between a slave girl and her master to be legal, for as long as the institution of slavery existed.
You have asked whether such a relationship between a slave girl and his master could be termed as 'Prostitution' or not. I believe that this question can only be asked if a person either does not know what prostitution is or is unaware of the relationship that existed between a master and his slave girl.
Prostitution has been defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica in the following words:
the practice of engaging in relatively indiscriminate sexual activity, in general with individuals other than a spouse or friend, in exchange for immediate payment in money or other valuables.
The Oxford Advanced Learner's Encyclopedic Dictionary has defined a 'Prostitute' as:
a person who offers herself/himself for sexual intercourse for money.
Keeping these definitions in mind, nobody can term the recognition of the existing relationship between a master and his slave girls as 'Prostitution'. The Qur'an has condemned those people who used to enforce prostitution upon their slave girls. We, therefore, cannot say that the Qur'an has encouraged or opened the doors for prostitution.
However, on the other hand, one may feel that the Qur'an has opened the door for extra-marital sexual relationships (fornication/ adultery) by recognizing sexual relations between a master and his slave girl. I believe that this opinion would again evidence a person's lack of true understanding about the concept of the allowed and the disallowed sexual relationships in the eyes of Islam.
The only permanent relationship that Islam has allowed is the one, which is preceded by Nikah. The relationship between a master and his slave girl was recognized and accepted in the specific conditions of the Arab society at the time of the advent of Islam. As soon as the prevalent conditions of the society changed and the institution of slavery was completely abolished, the provision of this relationship also became redundant. However, till such time as this institution existed, the relationship, which it entailed was not considered as fornication or adultery by the society. A person could have sexual relations with his slave girl, as long as she remained his slave girl. This was not a hidden relationship. It was fully recognized and supported by the society. Because of this recognition and support, it was not and cannot be considered fornication or adultery. This relationship was given a status, which, in its roots, was not very different from the relationship between a husband and a wife. For example, both these relationships were legally and, to a great extent, morally recognized by the society; and both were declared, rather than hidden, relationships.
You or the author of the article didn't produce a single ayaat saying that having or owning a minka yameen is forbidden in Islaam.
The author wrote a nice piece but didn't bring a single shred of evidence from the Quran abandoning or forbidden slave girls, NOT one ayat. Why?
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
How would you go about getting your slave girls now? Are you going to buy them?
Posts: 1879 | From: Going to Graceland | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Human Right is a valuable thing in Islam. Allah allows Muslims to take female captives of unbelievers' army during wars. It will not be fair if Muslims let females with no Food, or Housing or anything... The Fair solution is to take them and provide them with all means of living in exchange they should work for these services. It is not allowed to mistreat a captive It is not allowed to force a female captive into sex with her owner because that is a human abuse. It is only allowed if she accepted it and there is no banning factor.
In fact, I know There were a lot of captive females who embraced Islam when they find that Kind treatment of muslim owners. They would not expect such treatment. So they embraced Islam.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Also Allah allowed and still alllow for a Muslim Man to have sex with his minka yameen so the issue about having sex out of married does not apply to minka yameen.
based on this then you cant really complain so heavily about Muslim women being raped by soldiers can you, as they are captives of war and therefore 'minka yameen' to those soldiers.
See, it doesnt really work does it?
The right is for Muslims only not kaffireen. Also the currently Iraq has it own government that is not ran by the infidels. Therefore those who are being rape by soliders are being rape.
No sands, you have also quoted that in Judges 5:30 there were concubines and slaves as 'booty of war' so thats the same isnt it, from their books. Governments have nothing to do with it. If its ok for you then its ok for them, Islam is fair and likes justice doesnt it?
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quote:Originally posted by Alchemist: How would you go about getting your slave girls now? Are you going to buy them?
" ... She may originally be a prisoner of war, and a Muslim may obtain a concubine from the ruler or commander if he took part in fighting in jihad, or if he buys her from her owner. She becomes permissible for him by virtue of his ownership ..."
quote:Originally posted by Alchemist: How would you go about getting your slave girls now? Are you going to buy them?
" ... She may originally be a prisoner of war, and a Muslim may obtain a concubine from the ruler or commander if he took part in fighting in jihad, or if he buys her from her owner. She becomes permissible for him by virtue of his ownership ..."
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:No sands, you have also quoted that in Judges 5:30 there were concubines and slaves as 'booty of war' so thats the same isnt it, from their books.
You'll have to ask Undercover and Freshsoda if concubines are still valid in Christianity.
Please Freshsoda, Undercover or any other Christian can you confirm that a man has the right to still own slave girls according to Christianity? Or has his law be abrogated with the new law that Jesus Christ brought according to the New Testament?
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
Clear proofs have beeen given.
Look up your bible and see how your God authorized concubines:
Secondly, the Old Covenant did make provision for a man having more than one wife. Please note Deuteronomy 21:15-17 !!
Actually sands I see no proof from the bible where God has sanctified a second marriage or having sex with slaves.
Just because something was practiced by man does not mean it was blessed by God. From the beginning God created one woman for one man, Eve for Adam.
In fact the following verses shows God to be displeased with man for taking multiple wives.
Gen 6:1 ¶ And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 ¶ And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Now I have noted Deuteronomy 21:15-17 and pasted it below so there will be no mistake as to what it says.
It is a description as to what to do if you have two wives and you hate one of them. Not a passage to condone the practice.
He says that the first born son of the fist wife, even if she is the hated one will get "double portion" of all that he hath.
This was the case except in the situation of Ismail and Isaac where God gave the inheritance to Isaac. Maybe because Ismail was the son of a slave.
Deu 21:15 ¶ If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, [both] the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
Deu 21:16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit [that] which he hath, [that] he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, [which is indeed] the firstborn:
Deu 21:17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated [for] the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he [is] the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn [is] his.
quote: Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: We must also note that Moses himself took a second wife who was an Ethiopian woman (Numbers 12:1). Moses had already married Zipporah (Exodus 2:21). Aaron and Miriam criticized their brother for taking this second wife, but they were immediately punished by the Lord for their criticism, making it plain that Moses had done no wrong in His sight (Numbers 12:1-15). Of course, it is possible that Moses' first wife had died, but the text gives no indication of this.
Now after reading the proof from your book. Please don't call God hypocritical:D
Again NO proof is shown here that Moses had two wives at one time. It does not state that he took a second wife as you stated in your post. Read for yourself, and PLEASE don't put words in Gods mouth.
Num 12:1 ¶ And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
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posted
^^^ are you claiming that Moses did not have two wives at that same time and what about king David and his concubine. I think you overlooked that issue.
How can you say the verse here does not allow for a 2nd wife? Was Mose committing a crime when he took the second wife and then God clearered him in the verses below:
quote:We must also note that Moses himself took a second wife who was an Ethiopian woman (Numbers 12:1). Moses had already married Zipporah (Exodus 2:21). Aaron and Miriam criticized their brother for taking this second wife, but they were immediately punished by the Lord for their criticism, making it plain that Moses had done no wrong in His sight (Numbers 12:1-15). Of course, it is possible that Moses' first wife had died, but the text gives no indication of this
Why did you not make reference to them?
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posted
Sands, I looked up the scriptures you gave me to look up and I posted it. It does not say he took a second wife. You also acknowledged that it was possible that Moses first wife had died. I would add that it was probable or she would of been mentioned.
This was from your post:
(Numbers 12:1). Moses had already married Zipporah (Exodus 2:21). Aaron and Miriam criticized their brother for taking this second wife, but they were immediately punished by the Lord for their criticism, making it plain that Moses had done no wrong in His sight (Numbers 12:1-15). Of course, it is possible that Moses' first wife had died, but the text gives no indication of this
This is what is acctually says:
Num 12:1 ¶ And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
What comment do you have about the scriptures in Genesis where God saw the men taking multiply wives and said that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth?
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posted
Basically I don't have any comment about Genesis for it is not the book which I follow. I only used reference from your book for YOU not for me.
I don't read the bible. As I have not need to. I have the Quran the last and final message to mankind. That i.e the Quran is sufficient for me.
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So for me it has proven your belief that God blesses having sex with multiple wives and unlimited slaves to be wickedness.
So what does the Quran say about it?
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So for me it has proven your belief that God blesses having sex with multiple wives and unlimited slaves to be wickedness.
So what does the Quran say about it?
I have given you my proof and beliefs according to Islaam. I thought that was clear.
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The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
If you take a look at the Qur'an as a whole and how it describes the relationship between spouses, I see that men and women are supposed to give each other love, protection, tranquility etc., that they are "garments for each other" and that there is "love and mercy between them". I wonder how the scholars of the above mentioned fatwas manage to believe that a husband screwing around without his wife's approval will promote love, peace and companionsip between a couple, a healthy family life and a better society.
For me it's crystal clear that God's directions and recommendations about love, justice, fairness etc. clearly contradict those man-made rules which claim that men are superior beings and should have unlimited control over women, while viewing women as being created to bear children and give sexual pleasure to men, but not as human beings with similar rights and with a body, brain and emotions.
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The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
Why do you turn anything into Misogynnistic and patriarchal accustaion? Will you like if I did the same with what you say?
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Good answer.
So for me it has proven your belief that God blesses having sex with multiple wives and unlimited slaves to be wickedness.
So what does the Quran say about it?
I have given you my proof and beliefs according to Islaam. I thought that was clear.
I am asking you what the Quran says. Not what the Hadiths say.
If you read the post 90% was Quran no need to repost it. You can refer to Suratul Nisa (The Chapter titled: "Women".
In a nutshell owning and possessing slave girls is permitted and having sexual intercourse with them is lawful even if you don't want to marry them.
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quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Why do you turn anything into Misogynnistic and patriarchal accustaion? Will you like if I did the same with what you say?
Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.
I don't *turn* anything into something misogynistic, I am pointing out blatant misogynism when I see it. I am deeply saddened and sickened when I read stuff like the above mentioned fatwas. If you have no problem with speaking about women as if they are cattle (and all that in God's name, btw), then fine. I'm glad you're able to sleep with a clear conscience. However, some of us feel that speaking up against injustice is necessary. Sorry, if that bothers you.
Ok, let's turn this around for the sake of argument. I'll take some passages of the fatwa and swap "man" and "woman". Please read carefully and let me know what this sounds like to you:
Question: Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a woman to have sexual relations with slave boys. Is this so? If it is then is the woman allowed to have relations with him as well her husband? Also, is it true that a woman can have sexual relations with any number of slave boys and with her own husband also? I have read that Umm Ali had 17 slave boys and Umm Umar also had many. Surely if a woman were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the husband's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the husband has got any say in this matter?
Answer: Praise be to Allaah.
Islam allows a woman to have intercourse with her slave, whether she has a husband or she is not married. ...
What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave men whom you own. ...
Al-Tabari said:
Allaah says, “And those who guard their chastity” i.e., protect their private parts from doing everything that Allaah has forbidden, but they are not to blame if they do not guard their chastity from their husbands or from the male slaves whom their rights hands possess. Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84
...
The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses. Al-Umm, 5/43.
The husband has no right to object to his wife owning male slaves or to her having intercourse with them. And Allaah knows best.Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
Why do you turn anything into Misogynnistic and patriarchal accustaion? Will you like if I did the same with what you say?
Joueur you are a Muslimah can you share you woman views on this issue with the forum inshaa Allah?
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Good answer.
So for me it has proven your belief that God blesses having sex with multiple wives and unlimited slaves to be wickedness.
So what does the Quran say about it?
I have given you my proof and beliefs according to Islaam. I thought that was clear.
I am asking you what the Quran says. Not what the Hadiths say.
If you read the post 90% was Quran no need to repost it. You can refer to Suratul Nisa (The Chapter titled: "Women".
In a nutshell owning and possessing slave girls is permitted and having sexual intercourse with them is lawful even if you don't want to marry them.
There is need to re-post it because I am not Muslim and I cannot tell by what you have posted which is from the Quran and which is Hadith.
So if you would please show me what the Quran says specifically I would appreciate it. Thanks.
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“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[al-Nisa’ 4:3]
What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave women whom you own. And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”
[al-Ahzaab 33:50]
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).
Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.
But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers” [al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31]
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The Quran had come as a light and beacon for mankind, to 'regulate' social relations and to guide the believing men & women with the following verses:
"Tell the believing men that they shall subdue their eyes, and to maintain their chastity. This is purer for them...." (24:30)
"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary...." (24:31)
"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments..." (33:59)
"You shall encourage those of you who are single to get married..." (24:32)
"Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace..." (24:33)
"The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes..." (24:2)
The above verses are just a 'sample' of the moral laws which regulate human social behaviour.
Yet, with all these clear verses, we are AMAZED as how todays sectarian Muslims have turned GOD's system into one which not only 'allows' multiple sex partners, but actually ENCOURAGES fornication and sex out of wed-lock!
In todays sectarianism, we see that men have the following licence:
To have sex with AS-MANY women as possible if they are 'slaves' or 'war-captives'.
This blasphemy towards GOD and His messenger has made a mockery of the true teachings of the Quran and has made 'in-valid' all the verses which were revealed to regulate human society!
Arab & Muslim men think that GOD has given them such a privilege because He knows that they are 'men' and thus need to have their sexual desires fulfilled by more than one women.
It is also 'ironic' that these sectarians make fun of the West and call them 'infidels' for having sex with women outside wed-lock. The 'hypocracy' of the situation is that they have more sex with more women under the LIE that GOD's perfect system authorized this.
"They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?" (7:28)
In this article, we will adress the issue of 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum' (those whom your right hands possess) whom we will PROVE does not mean servants or war captives.
"Those who listen to the utterance so as to follow the BEST of its goodness thereof; those are the ones whom The GOD has guided and those are the people of understanding" (Quran 39:18)
1. What is the 'licence' given for 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum'?
"And they maintain their chastity. Only with their spouses OR those whom thier 'right hand posseses' (Ma Malakat Aymanuhum), do they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed." (23:5-6)
This is really the fundamental issue, that the Quran in the above verse (and other verses) ALLOWS a man to have sexual relations with a certain category of women...But just exactly WHO are these people with whom sexual relations is allowed!
2. Are these people 'servants' who work in our homes, and whom we can have sex with?
Let us first see what the word used for servants in the Quran.
The word used for servants in the Arabic language and in the Quran is 'Abd'. Here are a few verses from the Quran where 'Abd' is used:
"And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your servants (Ibadikum) and your female servants; if they are poor, The GOD will make them free from want out of His grace; and The GOD is Ample-giving, Knowing." (Quran 24:32)
"If Thou dost punish them, they are thy servants (Ibadak); if Thou dost forgive them, thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise." (Quran 5:118)
"Verily those whom ye call upon besides The GOD are servants (Ibadun) like unto you: call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are truthful!" (Quran 7:194)
And in the following verse, GOD has forbidden messengers to have people serve them instead of Him:
"It is not meet for a mortal that The GOD should give him the Book and the wisdom and Prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my servants(Ibaad) rather than The GOD's; but rather: Be servants of the Lord because of your teaching the Book and your reading it." (Quran 3:79)
So, if the Quran clearly has a word for 'servants', then that rules out 'Ma Malakat Aymankum'.
3. Is this word used for war-captives?
This is the PRIME argument used by the sectarians. That 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum' are 'war captives' whom they have captured and thus can sell and trade in them, and can have sex with them as they wish.
The word in the Quran for 'Captives' is 'Asra'. Here are a few verses using this word consistently:
"And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive (Asartum) another part." (Quran 33:26)
"And they feed, for the love of The GOD, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive (Aserun)." (Quran 76:8)
"After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist against them, in guilt and rancor; and if they come to you as captives (Asra), ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them..." (Quran 2:85)
Well, unfortunately for the sectarians, there is already a word for 'Captives' and it is NOT 'Ma Malakat Aymanunkum'!
4. How does one have 'sex' with Ma Malakat Aymanukum?
Now that we have elimintaed 'Servants' & 'Captives', below is a clue that may lead us to the correct nature of this relationship:
"Those among you who cannot afford to WED believing women, then from the believing young girls from among those whom 'your right hands posses' (Ma Malakat Aymanukum). GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. WED them with permission from their guardians, and before you marry them pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are taken in WEDLOCK, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that you practice self-restraint. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (Quran 4:25)
Hold on a minute! Has not anyone seen this verse before?
In the clearest possible words, GOD is telling us that those who wish to 'have sex' with these women (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) MUST marry them!
In-fact, the Quran lays out some rules for such a marriage:
1. Consent of their parents/guardians;
2. Paying them their dowry.
This does not quite sound like the 'jump-on-them' when you feel like teachings that have been spread by the sectarians!
This talks about a MARRIAGE with its rules and regulations ...
5. Who are these people?
Perhaps now we can get to the heart of the matter: 'Who are these people'?
Clue # 1: These people can be LIVING in our Homes!
"O you who believe, permission must be requested by those 'whom your oaths posses' (Malakat Aymanukum) and the children who have not attained puberty. This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise." (24:58)
Clue # 2: These people are DEPENDANT on us financially!
"He cites for you herein an example from among yourselves: Do you have from amongst those whom 'your oaths posseses' (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) as partners to the provisions We have provided for you?. To the level where you fear them as you fear yourselves?. We thus explain the revelations for people who understand." (30:28) - See also 4:36
Clue # 3: They are an 'Exception' to regular marriage restrictions.
"Also prohibited are the women who are already married, except those whom your oaths posses' (Ma Malakat Aymanukum). These are GOD's commandments to you..." (4:24)
Summary:
1. The term 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum' refers to females only (4:24); ??2. These are females who are living in a man's 'houshold' (24:58); ??3. These are females who are 'dependant' on us financially (4:36); ??4. These are females who have family or guardians (4:25); ??5. These are females who are the 'Exception' to marrying a married woman (4:24).
Our understanding is that 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum' are widowed women who may be living under the roof and financial support of a man (her family, or the brother or relative of the deceased) and thus are described by the term 'what your OATHS posses' (i.e. due to the responsibility).
Marriage to such women is allowed in the Quran under slightly different terms & conditions than other women.
quote: “And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
This says it is: "nearer to prevent you from doing injustice"
It does not say that there is no injustice in doing this.
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quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Why do you turn anything into Misogynnistic and patriarchal accustaion? Will you like if I did the same with what you say?
Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.
I don't *turn* anything into something misogynistic, I am pointing out blatant misogynism when I see it. I am deeply saddened and sickened when I read stuff like the above mentioned fatwas. If you have no problem with speaking about women as if they are cattle (and all that in God's name, btw), then fine. I'm glad you're able to sleep with a clear conscience. However, some of us feel that speaking up against injustice is necessary. Sorry, if that bothers you.
Who spoke about women as a cattle? Why do you get it as it is? Why can't you enlarge your scope and try to get things like what the person intends to say? Why do you need to understand things according to your own standards and not according to people in general? Why do you insist to look at the world from one dark side? Try to put yourself in the place of other people to feel what they think without paying attention to your own opinion.
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