quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: [Our understanding is that 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum' are widowed women who may be living under the roof and financial support of a man (her family, or the brother or relative of the deceased) and thus are described by the term 'what your OATHS posses' (i.e. due to the responsibility).
Marriage to such women is allowed in the Quran under slightly different terms & conditions than other women.
See that's why those people who wrote the article are called Free-Thinkers and NOT Muslims.
They're twisted free-thinking people that's all.
Not a single scholar from Ahlul Sunnati wa Jamaat would agree with that article.
Anyway good try Dalia..I think you need to go back to the gym today or get a hold of some of them slave men, or get shagged..LOL Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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joueur, don't you think it is treating woman like cattle when you can have them as a heard? I think this is what she meant.
For a man to say It is his right to have 4 wives and sex with as many slaves as he chooses is not considering the feelings of the woman.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: joueur, don't you think it is treating woman like cattle when you can have them as a heard? I think this is what she meant.
For a man to say It is his right to have 4 wives and sex with as many slaves as he chooses is not considering the feelings of the woman.
Of_Gold you are going on the premise that the 4 wives are against Islaam. Obviously, if they are co-wives they aren't. They are in agreeance with Islaam and they understand the right of the man to have slaves girls. The Muslimah knows her rights and the rights she has over her husband and the right he has over her. There is no conflict there.
The conflict is for the non-believers not the Muslimeen.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Sorry Sands,,But if you think that slavery is allowed in Islam then its consider distorted view,,And since you are still learning Arabic and new converted to Islam then you need to learn more and more,,Specially about (Elm Al Monasbat)..
Slavery in Islam (Submission)
Slavery is a very old practice that was gradually abolished in Islam (Submission). Many people out of ignorance or out of biased attack Islam (Submission) for its stand on slavery, distorting and misrepresenting the true stand of Islam (Submission). In this article we will see the great humane position of Islam on slavery.
The central issue of slavery and equality is the concept of human dignity. In Islam, God has conferred honor and dignity on all human beings irrespective of their race, gender, age, social status and beliefs. In (17:70) God says, “ We have honored the children of Adam , and provided them with rides on land and in the sea. We provided for them good provisions, and we gave them greater advantages than many of our creatures.”
Together with human dignity and honor comes freedom to live, the right to be respected on an equal basis before the law and to enjoy equal social treatment. Islam (Submission) stresses the equality of mankind as God created man from a common source and the only allegiance and obedience is to God, the Almighty creator. Islam has never condoned any form of discrimination. The only thing that sets men apart is their righteousness.
[49:13] "O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant."
Slavery has been gradually abolished by Islam, it did not come by decree or injunction but rather in the form of total management principles which were applied during the early periods of Islam and still applicable today if necessary.
Slavery has long been practiced before the coming of Islam (Submission). In the pre-Islamic Egyptian, Jewish, Greek and Roman societies , slavery was in full use in different aspects. Aristotle subscribed to the idea that men were born not to be equal as some will become master due to their superior brain power and intellectual capacity while others will become slaves.
The approach taken by Islam (Submission) is full of wisdom and at the same time provides a package of pro-active measures to eliminate this practice. It is a gradual but effective approach which combines several affirmative measures. The main strategy is:
To narrow down the sources of slavery with a view to eliminating it all-together; and OPENING a wide avenue for slaves to gain independence.
People became slaves because of criminal actions, unpaid debts, gambling, kidnapping, piracy, irresponsible parents who sold their children into slavery, being descendants of slaves, prisoners of war and voluntary submission to be a slave in order to get out from the miseries of life such as acute poverty. These were effectively reduced by Islam.
The provision of slavery through wars was no longer important after the Islamic civilization redefined the mode of interaction between nations -- from power struggle to peaceful and productive coexistence. Indirectly but effectively Islam has closed this source of slavery.
Islam (Submission) opened all the doors to free the slaves by setting up rules which greatly facilitated the emancipation of slaves:
The initiative of Islam in promoting independence for slaves was carried out in the following ways:
(1) Encouraging the masters and the Muslim societies at large to help in freeing the slaves. The act of freeing the slave is considered a noble one which is highly valued by God. The slaves themselves entered into an agreement with the master to buy their independence by paying certain amounts of money. The society was encouraged to help in providing the freedom money.
[24:33] “Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. ………”
(2) Making the act of freeing the slave a part of punishment for any criminal act as well as for non-conformity of the Islamic rituals. There are several verses in the Holy Quran which specifically mentioned the requirement of freeing the slave as a way of meeting the punishment for wrongdoing. See 4:92, 5:89 and 58:3
(3) Using Charity money as a financial source to free the slave.
[9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves , to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
[2:177] “Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves ; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.”
[90:10-13] Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves .
Finally we can say that Islam found the slavery system already existing and put forward a plan to abolish it.
No slaves or Free the slaves:
Some people question why God in the Quran did not prohibit slavery and instead commanded and rewarded the freeing of the slaves.
God, The Almighty, knows that slavery is a social disease that will persist as long as humans are present on earth. If the order in the Quran is to prohibit slavery, it would be a noble command but since ONLY the believers in the Quran would be the ones following the Quran, the command would not help slavery outside Islam (Submission.) Every Muslim would then free his slaves and remind the other Muslims not to have slaves any more and their duty stop at that. The command in the Quran to FREE THE SLAVES , does not stop at the Muslims or Islam but extend to all the slaves wherever they are. A muslim (Submitter) would therefore free any slaves he might have had and after that turns to any other slaves in any location and of any religion to free, as commanded by God in the Quran. In other words, the command to free the slaves is far more reaching and far more effective than the mere order to stop having slaves.
Van Denburg, a non-Muslim historian says, "Many regulations have been made by Islam, showing how noble was the feeling of the Prophet Muhammad and his followers towards slaves. In those regulations, we find that the merits of Islam are contrary to all the systems used until recently by nations, who claim to be most civilized and developed."
Islam never became a force nor a party that promoted and condoned slavery. A balanced analysis of this issue would recognize the wisdom of Islam in managing the heinous practice of slavery and effectively putting an end to it.
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Mr. Misho..I'm not a new convert. Alhamdulillah I've been a Muslim and practicing for more than 25 years.
I know Mr. Misho you rather take an apologetic view for Islaam whereas I do not.
Again you fail to show a single verse in the Quran which forbids the minka yameen or commonly refered to as "Malakat Aymanukum".
[70:30] (They have relations) only with their spouses, or what is legally theirs -
[23:6] Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs, do they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed.
You argument is for slavery..this is not the issue for Malakat Aymanukum.
People like Bilal ibn Rabah (RA) was a slave he was NOT a Malakat Aymanukum.
Show me a single ayat where the owning of Malakat Aymanukum is forbidden and no longer valid according to the manhaj of Ahlulu Sunnati wa Jamaat please.
I don't want to hear good feeling stories and why somone thinks or feels. Support your position with clear ayaats in which Allah Azza wa Jal tells us that Malakat Aymanukum are forbidden and no longer valid in Islaam.
Inshaa Allah I will wait for those ayaats.
BTW the ayats that you mentioned that it is better to free the slaves. Yes I agree with that because Allah said so..but Allah did not say it is forbidden to still own them.
Don't confuse the argument with slavery..we are talking about Malakat Aymanukum.
Again for the 100th time just one clear ayaat forbidding Malakat Aymanukum. Just one!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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What is the situation of the female captives during wars who had no housing, Food ,Drink or anyone to care for them. If you did not consider them Milk al yameen, What do you consider them ?
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quote:Originally posted by *Misho*: Slavery has been gradually abolished by Islam, it did not come by decree or injunction but rather in the form of total management principles which were applied during the early periods of Islam and still applicable today if necessary.
No those are the fantasies of Misho. Sorry Misho but what you describe is NOT the picture of Islam. It is the picture YOU have of Islam in your head. I suggest you start reading carefully to get the real picture. Historians centainly do not agree with you. Islam had nothing to do with the abolishion of slavery. The reason there are no more slaves in Islam is because the kafirs are more powerful and they do not let you.
The Executive Director of Islamic “Human Rights” confessed: “it was ok to take slaves”. Please see this link and learn that slavery in Islam has not ended yet. http://www.lnsart.com/Sudan%20Slave%20Story.htm
quote:Originally posted by *Misho*: The approach taken by Islam (Submission) is full of wisdom and at the same time provides a package of pro-active measures to eliminate this practice. It is a gradual but effective approach which combines several affirmative measures.
Islam (Submission) opened all the doors to free the slaves by setting up rules which greatly facilitated the emancipation of slaves
Islam never became a force nor a party that promoted and condoned slavery. A balanced analysis of this issue would recognize the wisdom of Islam in managing the heinous practice of slavery and effectively putting an end to it.
Oh dear! How much ignorance is prevailing among the Muslims! Why you are so reluctant to read the history of your own religion? Muhammad attacked the Jews of Medina and Kheibar and after killing the men he took their women and children and sold them as slaves. He even allowed Muslim men to sleep with women captured in war as “their right hand possessions”. Omar and Ali enslaved hundreds of thousands of Iranians and sold them in the markets of Mecca and Medina. Aisha had thousands of slaves. Where is that “method” to abolish slavery that you are talking about? Can you be more specific please? Can you show me a verse from the Quran that prohibit that? Why do you what to fool yourself? Why do you want to lie to yourself? Muslims would practice slavery even today openly if they did not fear the reaction of the Westerners. In Sudan they are doing it right now. The Saudi Arabia is the biggest Market of young girls purchased from Iran that is now reduced to a poor third world country and other Islamic nations. The market of sex slaves in oil rich Arab countries is a multi billion dollar market. If Muhammad introduced a "method" I would like to know why he and his Sahaba (close followers) did not follow? What is that method and why it failed?
Slavery was taken for granted throughout Islamic history, as it was, of course, in the West as well up until relatively recent times. Yet while the European and American slave trade get stern treatment attention from historians (as well as from reparations advocates and guilt-ridden politicians), the Islamic slave trade, which actually lasted longer and brought suffering to a larger number of people, is virtually ignored. (This fact magnifies the irony of Islam being presented to American blacks as the egalitarian alternative to the “white man’s slave religion” of Christianity.) While historians estimate that the transatlantic slave trade, which operated between the sixteenth and nineteenth centuries, involved around 10.5 million people, the Islamic slave trade in the Sahara, the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean areas began in the seventh century and lasted into the nineteenth, and involved 17 million people.
And when pressure came to end slavery, it moved from Christendom into Islam, not the other way around. There was no Muslim William Wilberforce or William Lloyd Garrison. In fact, when the British government in the nineteenth century adopted the view of Wilberforce and the other abolitionists and began to put pressure on pro-slavery regimes, the Sultan of Morocco was incredulous. “The traffic in slaves,” he noted, “is a matter on which all sects and nations have agreed from the time of the sons of Adam...up to this day.” He said that he was “not aware of its being prohibited by the laws of any sect” and that the very idea that anyone would question its morality was absurd: “No one need ask this question, the same being manifest to both high and low and requires no more demonstration than the light of day.”
However, it was not the unanimity of human practice, but the words of the Qur’an and Muhammad that were decisive in stifling abolitionist movements within the Islamic world. Slavery was abolished only as a result of Western pressure; the Arab Muslim slave trade in Africa was ended by the force of British arms in the nineteenth century.
Besides being practiced more or less openly today in Sudan and Mauritania, there is evidence that slavery still continues beneath the surface in some majority-Muslim countries as well -- notably Saudi Arabia, which only abolished slavery in 1962, Yemen and Oman, both of which ended legal slavery in 1970, and Niger, which didn’t abolish slavery until 2004. In Niger, the ban is widely ignored, and as many as one million people remain in bondage. Slaves are bred, often raped, and generally treated like animals.
A shadow cast by the strength and perdurability of Islamic slavery can be seen in instances where Muslims have managed to import this institution to the United States. A Saudi named Homaidan Al-Turki, for instance, was sentenced in September 2006 to 27 years to life in prison, for keeping a woman as a slave in his home in Colorado. For his part, Al-Turki claimed that he was a victim of anti-Muslim bias. He told the judge: “Your honor, I am not here to apologize, for I cannot apologize for things I did not do and for crimes I did not commit. The state has criminalized these basic Muslim behaviors. Attacking traditional Muslim behaviors was the focal point of the prosecution.” The following month, an Egyptian couple living in Southern California received a fine and prison terms, to be followed by deportation, after pleading guilty to holding a ten-year-old girl as a slave. And in January 2007, an attaché of the Kuwaiti embassy in Washington, Waleed Al Saleh, and his wife were charged with keeping three Christian domestic workers from India in slave-like conditions in al-Saleh’s Virginia home. One of the women remarked: “I believed that I had no choice but to continue working for them even though they beat me and treated me worse than a slave.”
All this indicates that the problem of Islamic slavery is not restricted to recent events in the Sudan; it is much larger and more deeply rooted. The United Nations and human rights organizations have noted the phenomenon, but nevertheless little has been done to move decisively against those who still hold human beings in bondage, or aid or tolerate others doing so. The UN has tried to place peacekeeping forces in Darfur, over the objections of the Sudanese government, but its remonstrations against slavery in Sudan and elsewhere have likewise not resulted in significant government action against the practice. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have also noted the problem, but as HRW observes, “the government of Sudan has stonewalled on the issue of slavery, claiming it was a matter of rival tribes engaging in hostage taking, over which it had little control. That is simply untrue, as myriad reports coming out of southern Sudan have made abundantly clear.” For Islamic slavery to disappear, a powerful state would have to move against it decisively, not with mere words, and accept no equivocation of half-measures. In today’s international geopolitical climate, nothing could be less likely.
So as you see it is important that we do not allow Islam to spread with lies and then find by surprise that slavery is permissible in Islam after all.
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Well Sands,,The matter is not about something being prevented clearly in quranic verses or allowed clearly,,Its about that how Allah wanted people to raise up socially in proper way step by step.
If the matter not prevented clearly does not make it allowed by the way you think:-
(1) as long as Allah encourages for it by clear words in all of this verses to free the slaves.
(2) By deep looking at sunna you will find clearly that most movments are toward free slaves in every event like the verses above ordered.
(3) What is the consequenses if you already did this NOW (dont forget that we are talking about another age of human history while the slavery was allowed in everywhere)???,,Who on earth would like or accept to be a slave???,,From another prespictive you will find obviously that you are forcing someone to live with you under your rules and s/he not free to do anything you wouldnt want him or her to do???,,Isnt that consider injustice which is applied on a human soul???,,Would you like that to be applied on you or your sister or your daughter???
quote:Don't confuse the argument with slavery..we are talking about Malakat Aymanukum
Secondly and main thing that iam not confuse slavery with the word (Malakat Aymankum),,Both actually are the same thing,,A slave man/woman is the same thing,,They are both including in (Ma Malkat Aymanukum) according to Arabic,,Just tell me from any Moo'gam the meaning of both words in arabic (Malakat) & (Aymanakum) ???
If you looked for it,,You will find that we are talk about the same thing.
No those are the fantasies of Misho. Sorry Misho but what you describe is NOT the picture of Islam. It is the picture YOU have of Islam in your head.
Sorry UnderCover,,Its non of your business whether its the picture I have of Islam in my head or not,,Niether you nor anyone else will going to tell me How I should see or practice my faith.
However,,If my words disturbing you,,Dont read them or go to read for Ali Sina as you seem comfortable more with his views,,Have a nice time,,And send my hello to Ali sina if you do mailing him. Posts: 712 | Registered: Sep 2006
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No those are the fantasies of Misho. Sorry Misho but what you describe is NOT the picture of Islam. It is the picture YOU have of Islam in your head.
Sorry UnderCover,,Its non of your business whether its the picture I have of Islam in my head or not,,Niether you nor anyone else will going to tell me How I should see or practice my faith.
However,,If my words disturbing you,,Dont read them or go to read for Ali Sina as you seem comfortable more with his views,,Have a nice time,,And send my hello to Ali sina if you do mailing him.
coward ))) rund rund rund ..lol
Posts: 366 | From: some day | Registered: Dec 2007
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No those are the fantasies of Misho. Sorry Misho but what you describe is NOT the picture of Islam. It is the picture YOU have of Islam in your head.
Sorry UnderCover,,Its non of your business whether its the picture I have of Islam in my head or not,,Niether you nor anyone else will going to tell me How I should see or practice my faith.
However,,If my words disturbing you,,Dont read them or go to read for Ali Sina as you seem comfortable more with his views,,Have a nice time,,And send my hello to Ali sina if you do mailing him.
Thanks God you stood up for yourself.
... and you did it in funny way. Everyone knows that cover is spammer.
She is probably 4th wife of some fat ugly non-religious dude from Pakistan.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Question: Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a woman to have sexual relations with slave boys. Is this so? If it is then is the woman allowed to have relations with him as well her husband? Also, is it true that a woman can have sexual relations with any number of slave boys and with her own husband also? I have read that Umm Ali had 17 slave boys and Umm Umar also had many. Surely if a woman were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the husband's needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the husband has got any say in this matter?
Answer: Praise be to Allaah.
Islam allows a woman to have intercourse with her slave, whether she has a husband or she is not married. ...
What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave men whom you own. ...
Al-Tabari said:
Allaah says, “And those who guard their chastity” i.e., protect their private parts from doing everything that Allaah has forbidden, but they are not to blame if they do not guard their chastity from their husbands or from the male slaves whom their rights hands possess. Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84
...
The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses. Al-Umm, 5/43.
The husband has no right to object to his wife owning male slaves or to her having intercourse with them. And Allaah knows best.
I dont see what the problem is Dalia, this is acceptable to me Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ayisha have you converted to Islam to marry your husband or it was primarily because you really love Islam, and you were enlightened by it before marriage to him?
You sound too rebellious for some reason.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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No those are the fantasies of Misho. Sorry Misho but what you describe is NOT the picture of Islam. It is the picture YOU have of Islam in your head.
Sorry UnderCover,,Its non of your business whether its the picture I have of Islam in my head or not,,Niether you nor anyone else will going to tell me How I should see or practice my faith.
However,,If my words disturbing you,,Dont read them or go to read for Ali Sina as you seem comfortable more with his views,,Have a nice time,,And send my hello to Ali sina if you do mailing him.
coward ))) rund rund rund ..lol
What do you mean run? You did not have to change your nickname to say what you have.
If someone is coward and running it's you for doing that. Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Ayisha have you converted to Islam to marry your husband or it was primarily because you really love Islam, and you were enlightened by it before marriage to him?
You sound too rebellious for some reason.
I reverted to Islam on 26th July 2002 through my own choice and knew no muslims at that time. Alhamdulillah. I believe Quran is the true and final Word of God.
I met my husband in July 2004 and we married in Oct 2004, Alhamdulillah
Does that answer your question?
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The history of Islam is full of slavery. You deny all of them. Yet you have no other document to show a different version of the history. The fact is that Muslims were a bunch of poor, ignorant people. They had no slaves. They were working as labors for the Jews of Medina who owned that city 2000 years prior to the advent of Islam and at least 1500 years before the arrival of the Arabs’ who mostly came after the flood of Yemen (A. D. 450 or 451). All the slaves were made when they raided people and captured them. Hundreds of thousands of Iranians were enslaved and were sold in the markets of Mecca and Medina. Firouz who courageously killed Omar in a mosque before killing himself was an Iranian free man who was reduced into slavery. He was so embittered that he killed that evil Khalifa knowing perfectly that he will lose his life too. Now tell me how Firouz ended up becoming the slave of the Muslims in Medina if Muhammad prohibited slavery?
Now let us talk about the “right hand possessions”.
The verse 4:19 that says the consent of the woman must be sought for marriage does not apply to slaves girls. According to the Quran, your right hand possessions are yours to enjoy and you need not marry them. The slave girls are the right hand possessions and they have no rights to reject their masters. In the case of the marriage their consent must be sought but not in the case of having sex with them. This is clear from the following Hadith.
Volume 3, Book 46, Number 718: Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:
I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Bani Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."
In this Hadith Muhammad discourages “coitus Interruptus” but not rape of the captured women in war. Did these women whose husbands, brothers and fathers murdered consented to open their legs for the Muslim men? Did Muhammad ask the Muslims to seek the consent of the women before having sex with them? No! All he was concerned about was “coitus interruptus” and that “No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence." Forget about the stupidity of this claim. Think about its barbarity and its inhumanity.
In fact the following Hadith erases every doubt on this question. This is the sha’ne nodul of the verse 4:24
Muslim Book 008, Number 3432: Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).
Therefore it is clear that sex with slaves do not require marriage.
Do we see anywhere Muhammad telling his followers to seek the consent of their captives? Can the captives not consent freely? Pay attention that these women were forced to have sex with Muslim men when they actually had to mourn the loss of their loved ones. None of that mattered to your beloved messenger. In fact he himself set the example. Did you read the story of Safiyah? Muhammad demanded to have sex with her in the same day that he killed her husband, relatives and many loved ones. Muhammad previously beheaded her father when he raided the Bani Nadir. http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/safiyah.htm
Also Muhammad has sex with Mariah the Coptic slave that was given to her by the King of Abyssinia and Rayhanah the Jewish girl of Bani Qurayzah after killing all her mail relatives. These were just two women who remained slaves and never marries to Muhammad. Yet the prophet of Allah had not qualms sleeping with them. Did they consent?
What kind of man would kill all the loved ones of a young woman and then have sex with her in the same day? I leave the answer to the conscience of the readers.
Iran was a great empire. But when we fought against Nebuchadnezar we did not rape people nor looted them. Cyrus liberated the captives of that evil king and told them to go to their holy land build their own temple and worship THEIR OWN god. Read the book of Ezra chapter 1. Iranians wrote the first charter of Human Rights, where freedom of belief, of women, of choice of residence, of speech became law. This document is still available in coniferous writings over a stone cylinder. Cyrus lived 1100 years before Muhammad.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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So what made you to convert Ayisha? Why were you interested in Islam and what triggered such need on your behalf?
Islam is religion of Peace. Peace within.
If I would interview you about your conversion for instance, would you be able to show your peace, content and happiness with your Faith from within - without being rebellious?
I cant see the videos as im on dial up though so i will have to 'ad lib'
well lovingmylife it was actually 911 that made me look at Islam as it did a lot of people. I was not in 'need' though as you seem to imply, I just wanted to understand what religion could give people so much 'faith' to kill and die like that.
I started by reading childrens books on Islam from my local library and as I lived in a small village with no muslims there wasnt a great deal else. To my complete surprise they talked of Jesus and Moses and other prophets in the same way as I understood them to be prophets of God.
Intrigued I bought a copy of Quran at Gatwick Airport on my way to Egypt. It had no Arabic and no comentary it was just the 'translation of the meaning of the Holy Quran' without 'added' bits.
I was not very far through when I had to start looking in other places as this simple, relatively small 'book' was having an effect on me. I went on the internet to learn more. I learnt about science in Quran among other things.
But what did stick out as glaringly obvious was this WAS no doubt a Book from The Creator. It held everything I had believed for so long and never had a 'name' for or a 'religion' for.
I have always believed Jesus was a prophet, it never made any sense to say he was God or a son of God. When I heard a Copt say one day when passing a Church with a statue of Mary, 'Mother my God' it did not make any sense, how could God have a Mother, a son, this is The Creator of the Universe we are talking about, not a 'man'. Men have sons and mothers, God doesn't. So I knew 'Christianity' was not right for me.
I have also always believed that this wonderful universe is something 'created' as it works perfectly, too perfect to be chance. It all works on Mathematics. Also the things 'in' creation have always had me in awe, like birth, a rose petal, a tree, an ant, sunsets! All awesome stuff, and have you seen the Hubble telescope pics and videos??? Subhan Allah!! This is all from Allah. I had a vague concept of 'God' before but Islam expanded and defined it. I am unable to properly explain the vastness, the Might, the total EVERYTHING that Allah is. But He is certainly not a MAN and has nothing human about Him.
Sorry lovingmylife I feel I have slipped off topic a bit, you see it HAS changed my life so much for the better. I used to pray to God before and actually EXCUSE myself for disturbing Him with my silly problems, but I always got an answer. Now I know without doubt He listens and we dont need to pray 'through' someone to get to Him. He isn't too busy for ANY of us when we need Him.
Anyway back to your questions lovingmylife. Do I feel passion for the small things? Yes very much. Today I saw the most beautiful sunset and I could have cried I felt so 'full' up. When I watch the birds here in Luxor, just before Maghrib everyday, all flock to their trees at once with lots of shouting between them for bed-space. When I see a flock of birds flying up the Nile in a V shape, then all suddenly turn like they all know exactly when to do it. When I see a new baby, human or animal. When I see new leaves appear in Spring. When I think about the human brain being able to gather, process, store and retrieve information faster than the fastest computers. When I am always greeted with Asalamu Alaikum wherever I go. yes I feel emotion and passion lovingmylife and I dont know how you get that I am 'rebellious'
I am very happy and content with my beliefs.
your turn
hey do I get paid for this interview??
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Who spoke about women as a cattle? Why do you get it as it is?
Dear Joueur,
speaking about "owning", "distributing" and "having sexual intercourse with" women, while noting that they have no right to object IS speaking about women as if they were cattle. It is disgusting and derogatory, and I am sorry that you are not able to see this and put the blame on my supposedly distorted perspective.
And please don't think I'm being hypothetical here! There are many, many women in this world who live in war-torn countries and experience violence and rape on a daily basis. Aren't we mocking those women and their very real suffering if we are seriously discussing the *right* of people to have sex with female war captives???
Jouer, have you ever spoken to or read accounts of women (or men) who have been raped? By their fathers, their husbands, strangers, colleagues, friends, or in war? Have you ever honestly and deeply contemplated how it might feel if a person forces him-/herself on you?
Aren't we mocking those people and the hurt and damage that has been done to them, if we claim a woman simply has no right to say no to her husband or her *master*? Or if we keep promoting the view that a man is a helpless victim of his desires and it's the woman's responsibility to not raise any sort of desire in any man?
Do you know that this is exactly the sort of attitude that makes rape victims NOT report the crime done to them, because they will invariably be blamed in some way? It's exactly the sort of attitude that -- once deeply enough ingrained in a society -- will lead to many perpetrators never having to account for their crimes and many victims suffering in silence.
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Why can't you enlarge your scope and try to get things like what the person intends to say?
What, in your opinion, did I misunderstand? And what exactly do you think the person intended to say?
quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Why do you need to understand things according to your own standards and not according to people in general? Why do you insist to look at the world from one dark side? Try to put yourself in the place of other people to feel what they think without paying attention to your own opinion.
Please don't patronize me!
I've studied the site those fatwas came from quite closely. I have often spoken out on here about how scary and horrible I find many of the views presented on there. I don't think we should get into this again, since there are many threads on here discussing this already. But if you read any old thread on this you will find that I'm not only voicing my own opinion, I'm also pointing out with examples and proofs WHY I think many fatwas on this site are completely flawed: for example using false facts, weak ahadeeth while ignoring verses of the Qur'an in order to make their point; referring to *scientific facts* that can be proven wrong by anyone with a mind to read and understand, disguising personal opinions as facts etc.
Besides -- since this is what his thread is orginally about -- there is a terribly double standard regarding men's and women's sexuality. The scholars are creating all sorts of loopholes for men so that they can enjoy as much sex with as many women as they wish, claiming *men's nature* demands this. ("The most disturbing thing for a man is his sexual impulse." / Moh. Sal. Al-Munajjid)
Women's sexual needs, however, need rigid control according to the scholars on this site. Several fatwas encourage female circumcision "as a means to reduce women's desire". Sheikh Ibn Uthaymeen, a late grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, claims that women are *perfecting* themselves when they reduce their desire through circumcision. Another fatwa praises female circumcision for *taking away excessive libido from women*.
So what I see there is that men's sexuality is seen as something positive and also as something that needs to be catered to by any means ... wifes are not allowed to refuse their husbands in bed; a man can marry up to four wives if his desire for sexual variety is strong; if those four wives are still not enough he can have sex with an unlimited number of female slaves and so on ...
Women's sexuality, on the other hand, is not seen as something positive. According to those scholars, women should not only be physically mutilated in some cases in order to decrease their libido; they also need to be closely watched and hidden from public as much as possible, since even the glimpse of a female hand or face might cause some men to commit fornication.
I have wondered for a long time how those scholars can create such contradictory rulings. If men's libido is so ever-present, strong, overwhelming, important etc. -- why then would you want to decrease and restrict women's libido? It doesn't make sense ... if men have such a strong sex drive, they would want to have women with an equally strong sex drive, no? (I see a similar contradiction in Egypt, btw. Women are supposed to be chaste, some of them are mutilated in order to "protect their honor", i.e. make sure they aren't able to enjoy sex; while men are swallowing Viagra like candy and often go to prostitutes.)
But indeed, that was my personal point of view, and it took me a long time to realize that all the people who support the above mentioned theories simply don't care about women and their needs. Women are supposed to sleep with their husbands whenever those want to, for example, the concept of marital rape is unknown to those *religious authorities*. The only *excuses* a woman is allowed in order to not follow her husbands's call to bed are menstruation or serious sickness.
Sorry, but statements like this strip a woman of all humanity! All of us -- men as well as women -- are complex beings, influenced by a number of factors. There are multiple reasons a woman might not be in the mood to sleep with her husband or vice versa. Saying a woman (or a female slave, for that matter) is not allowed to refuse sex with her husband (or master) means that the feelings of the woman, her physical and mental wellbeing are of no concern for whoever issued this fatwa. Again, this issue has been discussed in many threads on here; you can do a search on "marital rape" etc. and you will find them.
Those are the opinions of the sheikhs of the above mentioned site regarding women. If you see nothing wrong with them and still feel I am halluzinating and speaking of a misogynism that doesn't exist, I suggest we stop all further debate at this point.
Allaah has made men superior to women
men excel women because they have more powers of reason and religious commitment
men are better than women, because the masculine is honour and perfection, whereas the feminine naturally has something lacking physically.
they are superior in physical nature, attitude, status, obedience to the commands of Allaah, spending, taking care of interests, and virtue, in this world and in the Hereafter
men are better than women in and of themselves
Part of the greatness of men’s rights over women is that sharee’ah almost commanded women to prostrate to men
Men’s religion is more complete
Men are more intelligent and have a better ability to distinguish right from wrong.
Men have the advantage of being more wise and more capable of management
The position of judge requires a high level of intelligence, insight and reason, and women have less of these qualities than men
Women are imperfect
The husband is the master (sayyid) according to the Book of Allaah
her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.
The husband is physically stronger and is more wise than the wife.
he is stronger and more able to earn a living
he is more perfect in rational thinking than her in most cases
a woman is like a slave or prisoner of her husband, and she cannot go out of his house except with his permission, whether her father, her mother or anyone else tells her to do that, according to the consensus of the imams.
It is not permissible for her to rebel against him or to withhold herself from him, rather if she refuses him and persists in doing so, he may hit her
Whether the husband wants to discipline his wife, or forgive her, or take another wife, or divorce her, this is all up to him to choose. Let the woman beware of incurring her husband’s wrath because this will lead to Allaah’s being angry with her.
The Hanafis mentioned four situations in which a husband is permitted to discipline his wife by hitting her. These are: not adorning herself when he wants her to; not responding when he calls her to bed and she is taahirah (pure, i.e., not menstruating); not praying; and going out of the house without his permission.
Going out of the house without the husband’s permission is a haraam action; Allaah has even forbidden women who are revocably divorced (first or second talaaq) from going out of their houses
she does not have the right to visit (even) her sick father except with the permission of her husband, and he has the right to prevent her from doing that… because obedience to the husband is obligatory
The husband is usually the one who initiates intercourse, and the woman is the one who is sought. So usually it is he who pursues her, so it is appropriate that she should ask his permission before observing a naafil fast, because he may want to have intercourse with her.
Men’s desire is greater than women’s, hence it is permissible for a man to marry up to four wives. This does not apply in the case of women. Hence men are less able to be patient in refraining from intercourse than women are. This is why women are required to ask permission to fast, and it is why a strong warning is issued to women not to refuse intercourse when their husbands call them. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
That fatwa site is also the one I read something on a long time ago about a Muslim girl and tight jeans
The girl asked the ruling about when she wore tight jeans and was travelling on the bus she got 'hot', she also said she had not been 'cut'.
The reply was for her to get circumcized and went on to say all the 'benefits' of female circumcision and quoted a number of hadith at her (NOTHING FROM QURAN).
Joueur, do you think that 'fatwa' was right??
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: That fatwa site is also the one I read something on a long time ago about a Muslim girl and tight jeans
The girl asked the ruling about when she wore tight jeans and was travelling on the bus she got 'hot', she also said she had not been 'cut'.
The reply was for her to get circumcized and went on to say all the 'benefits' of female circumcision and quoted a number of hadith at her (NOTHING FROM QURAN).
That was not from Islam-QA, I think it was from this discussion:
If I remember correctly (can't bear watching that video again) he didn't even quote ahadeeth at her, he just spoke about the danger of uncircumcised "spinsters" in Egypt, that he does not want them to be *aroused* and that they needed to be controlled by their mothers and by mutilating them.
I have always wondered what kind of advice he would gave given to a young man with tight Jeans asking the same question.
posted
It was definately one I read, not listened to, and I have searched for it many times but cant find it. It was on some 'fatwa' site though maybe about 4 years or so ago
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by joueur ( Hocus Pocus): Dalia, I have replied to this patriarchal accusations and your reply was that you have no interest in talking. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?
Hello?!? You were saying that there is no such thing as a patriarchal interpretation of Islam while I was just pointing out some very patriarchal interpretations in the same thread. So if you deny that those statements are patriarchal and injust, if you see absolutely nothing wrong with writing things like "Men are superior to women" (and claiming God said this!!!) -- how would we be able to have a conversation?
I'm going for a run now, maybe afterwards I can get my head around this.
And, btw, you haven't answered my question.
Please read carefully and let me know what this sounds like to youPosts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
OMG Dalia would you please go back to the gym and work out..you were so relax then..
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Oh goody an interview
I cant see the videos as im on dial up though so i will have to 'ad lib'
well lovingmylife it was actually 911 that made me look at Islam as it did a lot of people. I was not in 'need' though as you seem to imply, I just wanted to understand what religion could give people so much 'faith' to kill and die like that.
I started by reading childrens books on Islam from my local library and as I lived in a small village with no muslims there wasnt a great deal else. To my complete surprise they talked of Jesus and Moses and other prophets in the same way as I understood them to be prophets of God.
Intrigued I bought a copy of Quran at Gatwick Airport on my way to Egypt. It had no Arabic and no comentary it was just the 'translation of the meaning of the Holy Quran' without 'added' bits.
I was not very far through when I had to start looking in other places as this simple, relatively small 'book' was having an effect on me. I went on the internet to learn more. I learnt about science in Quran among other things.
But what did stick out as glaringly obvious was this WAS no doubt a Book from The Creator. It held everything I had believed for so long and never had a 'name' for or a 'religion' for.
I have always believed Jesus was a prophet, it never made any sense to say he was God or a son of God. When I heard a Copt say one day when passing a Church with a statue of Mary, 'Mother my God' it did not make any sense, how could God have a Mother, a son, this is The Creator of the Universe we are talking about, not a 'man'. Men have sons and mothers, God doesn't. So I knew 'Christianity' was not right for me.
I have also always believed that this wonderful universe is something 'created' as it works perfectly, too perfect to be chance. It all works on Mathematics. Also the things 'in' creation have always had me in awe, like birth, a rose petal, a tree, an ant, sunsets! All awesome stuff, and have you seen the Hubble telescope pics and videos??? Subhan Allah!! This is all from Allah. I had a vague concept of 'God' before but Islam expanded and defined it. I am unable to properly explain the vastness, the Might, the total EVERYTHING that Allah is. But He is certainly not a MAN and has nothing human about Him.
Sorry lovingmylife I feel I have slipped off topic a bit, you see it HAS changed my life so much for the better. I used to pray to God before and actually EXCUSE myself for disturbing Him with my silly problems, but I always got an answer. Now I know without doubt He listens and we dont need to pray 'through' someone to get to Him. He isn't too busy for ANY of us when we need Him.
Anyway back to your questions lovingmylife. Do I feel passion for the small things? Yes very much. Today I saw the most beautiful sunset and I could have cried I felt so 'full' up. When I watch the birds here in Luxor, just before Maghrib everyday, all flock to their trees at once with lots of shouting between them for bed-space. When I see a flock of birds flying up the Nile in a V shape, then all suddenly turn like they all know exactly when to do it. When I see a new baby, human or animal. When I see new leaves appear in Spring. When I think about the human brain being able to gather, process, store and retrieve information faster than the fastest computers. When I am always greeted with Asalamu Alaikum wherever I go. yes I feel emotion and passion lovingmylife and I dont know how you get that I am 'rebellious'
I am very happy and content with my beliefs.
your turn
hey do I get paid for this interview??
Ayisha, this is very beautiful story, good for you!
How your family reacted when you told them you converted?
Do you feel you are same person with different habits or you feel you totally changed spiritually, mentally, emotionally and in all levels?
How Islam changed you? ( if that's the case )
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My family were great. I have 3 grown up kids who have open minds. They all went to school in 'inner city' with Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and Christians so they knew more about Islam than I did. Although they have all said after a time that they thought it was a 'phase' . We dont often discuss Islam and I certainly dont push it on them, they ask and I answer as best as I can. I have seen their characters change over the last 5 and half years though, they wont know that
My parents are both dead sadly as I know my mum would have loved Islam.
I think I am the same person, I cant change who I am. Of course I now have different 'habits' in my dress and what I feel 'comfortable' with now. I dont wear low cut tops or short skirts anymore, that kind of thing, well I will for my husband I dont feel I have to have 'approval' of other people anymore because I dont care how they think I look or act.
I think what has changed in me is that I am 'certain' about something. I wont be told what I have to believe and I will fight for my right to have my own mind. I will not follow something blindly. I had a long, loveless marriage and I now know I dont 'need' that love from a man, dont get me wrong I love my (new) husband to bits and he loves me the same, but if he said to me that I had to beleive a certain way to 'be muslim' I couldnt do that, I would forsake my marriage to believe what I do.
I now have someone/something that I can rely on 100% never to let me down.
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I now have someone/something that I can rely on 100% never to let me down.
That really is beautiful, I think I have only ever relied on myself 100% although I am learning to trust God more with this I'm not there 100% yet.
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I dont see what the problem is Dalia, this is acceptable to me
Alright, great. What about those:
a slave boy does not have the right to refuse his mistress’s requests unless he has a valid excuse. If he does that he is being disobedient and she has the right to discipline him in whatever manner she thinks is appropriate and is allowed in sharee’ah.
Allaah is Most Wise in the laws that He decrees for his slaves, but this wisdom is only apparent to those who seek it and believe that Allaah is All Wise, and looks at the interests that are served by the laws of Allaah which no woman can see unless she ponders the matter, especially when there are those who attack those laws because they go against what they think are right and wise.
With regard to your question about it being permissible for a mistress to be intimate with her slave boy, the answer is that that is because Allaah has permitted it. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts) Except from their wives or (the slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame” [al-Mu’minoon 23:6; al-Ma’aarij 70:30]
That is subject to the condition that she has acquired him in a proper manner, and that the slave boy has not been given by his mistress in marriage to another woman to whom he is still married. The reason why this is permitted is that this slave boy belongs to her, either because she has paid money to buy him or she has fought for the sake of Allaah (and acquired him among the war booty).
Shaykh al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The reason for which people may be taken as slaves is if they are kaafirs who are waging war against Allaah and his Messenger. If Allaah grants victory to the mujaahid Muslims, who are offering their souls, their wealth and all their resources and everything that Allaah has given them so that the word of Allaah might prevail over the kuffaar, then these kuffaar may become slaves, unless the imam chooses to let them go or to ransom them if that serves the interests of the Muslims. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: During the time the Quran started to be revealed the majority had slaves and concubines. Islam brought new laws on how to treat those slaves, to treat them as a 'brother', as one of you.
Islam couldnt do away with slavery in one night (or verse) so it gave laws in how to treat them and to free them also.
It would have been disaster to free all slaves in one go as they would starve to death. Slaves became 'workers' or 'servants' and were given rights. Including rights to freedom.
Islam is against slavery and Alhamdulillah it is now almost none existant in the world, although not completely.
No Muslim of today should 'own' slaves. It is not of Islam.
Anyone trying to keep Islam in the dark ages, like sands, has an agenda which is not of Quran and not of Islam.
Allah gave Muslim men of the time an allowance of up to 4 wives, but also said one is better for you. Most men have gone into a fuzzy daze after reading you can have 4 and the part about one being better for you does not get into thier brain cell after this.
Islam allows NO concubines.
I have to ask where is your proof from Quran that there is not such than as mink yameen (what your right hand possess)?
I will use your logical that the above verse in not abrograted. So bring forth the proof/adaleel/evidence to say that having captive of wars is no longer valid please.
Ayisha wrote:
quote:Islam couldnt do away with slavery in one night (or verse) so it gave laws in how to treat them and to free them also.
And after 23 of preaching Islam and after Allah said that today I have peferected your religion, completed my favor on you and choosen Islaam as your way of life..when did Allah say Slavery is abolished in the Quran before that..again please show us.
Verses that raise the status of slaves to that of equals
002.177 YUSUFALI: It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves;
002.221 YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
Freeing slaves
004.092 YUSUFALI: Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave.........
005.089 YUSUFALI: Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom......
058.003 YUSUFALI: But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered,- (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other...........
024.033 YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
There are also many many hadith on the subject that im sure you will find of benefit
How did anything in your post change the fact that they are still allowed to have as many concubines as they choose?
Enlighten the world with the truth about the man claiming to be reported in the Bible, going aginst everything Jesus teaches with regard to marrying one wife, and any sex outside the marriage is adultery.
How can a religion claim to be against adultery then state its ok to have sex with your slave *as long as she is a believer*
I'm happy people are beginning to see the biggest con man in history for who he is: a womanizer who uses Allah to justify his behavior.
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posted
Concerning the above post^^^^ is see you didn't post a link to that filth you just post. As usual it is from a kaffir souce with smell a lot like Shia (which is kufr also).
I may be time to find more filth from your pervert books the Old and New Testaments once again is see. At least those stories you can refute that come from your perverted books.
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So if you deny that those statements are patriarchal and injust, if you see absolutely nothing wrong with writing things like "Men are superior to women" (and claiming God said this!!!) -- how would we be able to have a conversation? 
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