posted
Is God human or does God have human attributes?
According to ahl al-sunnah wa l-jamaah God has Eyes, face, hands and fingers and site verses in Quran and hadith to prove that.
038.075 YUSUFALI: (Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
055.027 YUSUFALI: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.
These hadith are actually taken to mean God has 2 eyes, although it does not say that in any of them:
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 553: Narrated Ibn Umar:
Once Allah's Apostle stood amongst the people, glorified and praised Allah as He deserved and then mentioned the Dajjal saying, "l warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him. No doubt, Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed."
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 241: Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:
Allah's Apostle stood up amongst the people and then praised and glorified Allah as He deserved and then he mentioned Ad-Dajjal, saying, "I warn you of him, and there was no prophet but warned his followers of him; but I will tell you something about him which no prophet has told his followers: Ad-Dajjal is one-eyed whereas Allah is not."
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 504: Narrated 'Abdullah:
Ad-Dajjal was mentioned in the presence of the Prophet. The Prophet said, "Allah is not hidden from you; He is not one-eyed," and pointed with his hand towards his eye, adding, "While Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a protruding grape."
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 505: Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "Allah did not send any prophet but that he warned his nation of the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). He is one-eyed while your Lord is not one-eyed, The word 'Kafir' (unbeliever) is written between his two eyes."
""Fingers: The prophet said: "The hearts of the children of Adam are all between the two fingers of the fingers of al-Rahman, like a single heart; he turns them how He chooses..." recorded in Sahih Muslim, chapter on Qadar and other sources"" Unfortunately i cannot find that hadith.
So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
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Why wouldn't God have all those things you mentioned? Humans were made in his ''image'' (Of course there may another explanantion for image.)If He doesn't have any of those I sure wouldn't want to look at Him very long. Of course if one believes in the ''invisible'' aspect of God then there isn't anything to discuss. This way no further conversation need be sought after.
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posted
thanks for your reply grumman. So you dont see anything odd or wrong in thinking God is like us in human form?
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Thank you PI, that is also my personal view. However the book I have here which was given to me when I started my Islamic studies says this is actual fact that Allah has eyes, hands, fingers and a face.
The book is:
Tawhid of Allah's Most Beautiful Names & Lofty Attributes
Under the title it says:
The Belief of Ahl Al-Sunnah wa l-Jamaah
It is written by:
Muhammed ibn Khalifah al-Tamimi who is the associate professor at the Islamic University of Medinah.
Next to the part that says hands, face, eyes and fingers it says 'dhatiyyah' and actually says 'stated below is a proof for each of the attributes mentioned above' then it gives the verses and hadith i mentioned.
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posted
Allah has all of the attributes which He describes Himself with in the Quran.
A wonderful book to read along with Shaykh's Muhammad ibn Khalifah Al Tamimi (may Allah preserve him) is (and I'll say it again): Aqeedatul Wasitiyah or Aqeedah Tahawiyah book books talks about the attributes (sifat) of Allah and Allah says he has hands..We don't know what His hands tabaraka ta'ala look like but there is no doubt He azza wa jal has hand, eyes and any other attribute which He has stated in the Quran.Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: We don't know what his hands look like but there is no doubt He azza wa jal has hand, eyes and any other attribute which He has stated in the Quran.
Just to make sure that what I said is clear, I was answering the specific question:
quote:do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
(emphasis added)
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posted
^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: ^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
so this means nothing?
042.011 YUSUFALI: (He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).
It is easier for humans to think of God as another like them as we cannot comprehend exactly 'what' God is, but I think its a big mistake to even try to comprehend what He is, our minds dont reach that level.
Sands does He have a long white beard too? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Sands does He have a long white beard too? [/QB]
Read again, again and if you have to over AGAIN:
1. Aqeedatul Wasitiyah: available at Darus Salaam bookstore in English 2. Aqeedatul Tahawiyah: As far as I know only available in the Arabic language 3. Usool Sunnah: Available Online for free. Just look up Imam Ahmed bin hambal (RA) and Usool Sunnah insha Allah
Then you will have the anwer to your questions BEFORE you meet my Lord Allah.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: could you give me that in English please
Refere to my post above yours..I edited so that others may benefit as well.
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posted
so for those who dont know the secret language
Principles of Islamic faith Islamic Belief Foundation of the Sunnah
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posted
Allah has two hands. Both of His hands are busy.
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 515:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The Right (Hand) of Allah Is full, and (Its fullness) is not affected by the continuous spending night and day. Do you see what He has spent since He created the Heavens and the Earth? Yet all that has not decreased what is in His Right Hand. His Throne is over the water and in His other Hand is the Bounty or the Power to bring about death, and He raises some people and brings others down." (Hadith No. 508)
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: so for those who dont know the secret language
Principles of Islamic faith Islamic Belief Foundation of the Sunnah
LOL when you go into the book store you can't ask for the book with possible the exception of Foundations of the Sunnah using the English title of the books.
You have to ask for them by the Secret languge(Arabic) titles..LOL
If you went into the book store and asked for Islamic Belief they wouldn't know who or what book you are referring to..LOL
In this case you will do best if you mentioned the books in the Secret Lanaguge (Arabic) names which I have posted.
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posted
Yes sands but I needed to know what it said in MY language before I go and ask in the secret language.
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A common point of disagreement between Muslims and Christians is the Christian belief that God does take on a human form and actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God. Yet, Christians do not believe that God in his essential nature is man, but only became man at the Incarnation. Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him.
Furthermore, according to the NT God actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1, 14
Hence, God in his essential nature is immaterial, invisible and spaceless. Yet, God assumed visible form and actually took on a physical body at the Incarnation of Jesus Christ without this effecting his invisible, immaterial divine nature:
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9
This is precisely the point that Muslims refuse to accept. Muslims think it inconceivable that their god, Allah could or would assume a visible form or actually become man.
Yet, interestingly both the Quran and hadiths affirm that Allah actually has a visible form and that Allah actually moves from place to place. Here is a sampling of Quranic passages affirming that Allah has a visible body:
The Quran Gives A Visible Form To Allah
By the Star when it goes down,- Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: He was taught by one Mighty in Power, Endued with Wisdom: FOR HE APPEARED (in stately form); While he was in the highest part of the horizon: THEN HE APPROACHED HIM AND CAME CLOSER, And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer; SO DID HE (God) CONVEY THE INSPIRATION TO HIS SERVANT- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey. S. 53:1-10 (Yusuf Ali's translation)
This passage clearly states that Muhammad saw Allah approaching him in visible form. Muslims have claimed that the person whom Muhammad saw was the Angel Gabriel. This interpretation will not work since the passage claims that the person that appeared to Muhammad was Muhammad's sovereign as indicated by the last part of the sentence, "TO HIS SERVANT." Unless Muslims want to claim that Muhammad is the servant of Gabriel, there is no avoiding the inescapable conclusion that the person whom Muhammad saw in visible form was none other than Allah himself.
Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger, Endued with Power, with rank before THE LORD OF THE THRONE, With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust. And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed; And without doubt HE SAW HIM IN THE CLEAR HORIZON. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen. Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed. S. 81:19-25
Again, the person whom Muhammad saw is none other than the Lord of the Throne, i.e. Allah. There is no other referent in the context of the passage and therefore the burden of proof is upon the Muslims to show that Muhammad did not see Allah visibly, but rather the Angel Gabriel. Noted Islamicist, F.E. Peters comments on the preceding Suras, specifically 53:1-12:
"None of the pronouns is identified in these verses, though there is little doubt that the recipient of the vision was Muhammad. Who was seen is less clear, and if Muhammad's being referred to as his 'servant' in verse 10 suggests that is God Himself, the Muslim tradition preferred to understand that it was Gabriel in all the other instances, chiefly because later in his own career Muhammad, as we shall see, had unmistakably come to the same conclusion. But there is no other mention of Gabriel in the Meccan suras, and it appears far more likely that God Himself first appeared to Muhammad 'on the high horizon' and then on a second occasion by the lotus tree near the 'garden of the dwelling' to show him 'the signs of his Lord.' Muhammad was clearly earthbound when he had his first experience, but where the latter vision took place, whether in a known locality in Mecca or, as is often thought, in some heavenly venue, is not further indicated. Neither is there anything to suggest that it was on either of these occasions that Muhammad received the words of the Quran.
"If Sura 53:1-18 seems to say that Muhammad believed that on two distinct occasions he had a vision of God, who thereby prompted him and showed to him His signs, the second vision is referred to only in briefing in passing. (Quran 81:19-27)
"Although verse 10 appears to refer back to the same vision 'on the high horizon' mentioned in 53:7-9, the Muslim commentators saw in the first three verses of this passage from Sura 81 an unmistakable reference to Gabriel. But there is abundant evidence that Muhammad not only did not identify Gabriel as the agent of revelation until his Medina days, but that while at Mecca he was criticized for the fact that God had not sent an angelic messenger: 'They said: "If your Lord had so pleased, He would certainly have sent down angels; as it is, we disbelieve your mission".' (Quran 41:14)
"Muhammad's earliest response did not encourage them to think that there was in fact an angel in God's revelation to him:
They say: 'You to whom the Reminder is being sent down, truly you are jinn-possessed! Why do you not bring angels to us if you are one of those who posses truth?' We do not send down the angels except when required, and if they came, there would be not repsite. (Ibid., 15:6-8)
And before you as well the Messengers we sent down were but men, to whom We granted inspiration. And if you do not understand that, ask the people who possess the Reminder. (Ibid., 16:43) (F.E. Peters, Muhammad and the Origins of Islam [State of University Press New York, Albany 1994], pp. 142-143)
The next set of hadiths clearly say that Allah appeared visibly and literally touched Muhammad:
Narrated AbdurRahman ibn A'ish Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: I saw my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious in the most beautiful form. He said: What do the Angels in the presence of Allah contend about? I said: Thou art the most aware of it. He then placed HIS PALM between my shoulders and I felt its coldness in my chest and I came to know what was in the Heavens and the Earth. He recited: 'Thus did we show Ibrahim the kingdom of the Heavens and the Earth and it was so that he might have certainty.' (6:75) Darimi reported it in a mursal form and Tirmidhi also reported. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 237- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was detained one morning from observing the dawn prayer (in congregation) along with us till the sun had almost appeared on the horizon. He then came out hurriedly and Iqamah for prayer was observed and he conducted it (prayer) in brief form. When he had concluded the prayer by saying As-salamu alaykum wa Rahmatullah, he called out to us saying: Remain in your places as you were. Then turning to us he said: I am going to tell you what detained me from you (on account of which I could not join you in the prayer) in the morning. I got up in the night and performed ablution and observed the prayer as had been ordained for me. I dozed in my prayer till I was overcome by (sleep) and lo, I found myself in the presence of my Lord, the Blessed and the Glorious, in the best form. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What these highest angels contend about? I said: I do not know. He repeated it thrice. He said: Then I saw Him put HIS PALMS between my shoulder blades till I felt the coldness of His fingers between the two sides of my chest. Then everything was illuminated for me and I could recognize everything. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What do these high angels contend about? I said: In regard to expiations. He said: What are these? I said: Going on foot to join congregational prayers, sitting in the mosques after the prayers, performing ablution well despite difficulties. He again said: Then what do they contend? I said: In regard to the ranks. He said: What are these? I said: Providing of food, speaking gently, observing the prayer when the people are asleep. He again said to me: Beg (Your Lord) and say: O Allah, I beg of Thee (power) to do good deeds, and abandon abominable deeds, to love the poor, that Thou forgive me and show mercy to me and when Thou intendst to put people to trial Thou causes me to die unblemished and I beg of Thee Thy love and the love of one who loves Thee and the love for the deed which brings me near to Thy love. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: It is a truth, so learn it and teach it. Transmitted by Ahmad, Tirmidhi who said: This is a hasan sahih hadith and I asked Muhammad ibn Isma'il about this hadith and he said: It is a sahih hadith. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 245; ALIM CD-ROM Version)
The Quran also applies human qualities and characteristics to Allah:
quote:A common point of disagreement between Muslims and Christians is the Christian belief that God does take on a human form and actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God. Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him. Yet, Christians do not believe that God in his essential nature is man, but only became man at the Incarnation.
When I read the above quote I couldn't help but crack up i.e. start laughing..it is so silly and they i.e Undercover and Freshsoda called us i.e. Muslims brainwashed and belonging to a cult..Jesus Christ!
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Muhammad, misunderstood what the term "Son of God" meant with respect to Christianity. He thought of it only in terms of sexual reproduction, i.e. that God fathered a child through sexual intercourse with Mary. Therefore he spoke out against it.
Muhammad was unable to distinguish between the Christian belief in Jesus as the Son of God and the Arab Pagan belief in idols as offspring of God, i.e., Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, (these were idols worshipped around Mecca as daughters of the supreme God - or Allah). Muhammad misunderstood that Christians in no way consider Jesus - the Son of God, in the same way the Arab Pagans understood their idols.
Muhammad's misconception of the Sonship of Christ is another proof that the Quran was not revealed to him by God, but rather it was built upon Muhammad's own concepts and ideology.
Because of Muhammad's misunderstanding, Islam places limits on God's power.
Muslims believe that the Quran - their Word of God - is eternal. The Quran also calls Jesus the Word of God. Since Muslims believe that the Quran is eternal, yet is able to enter into the limitations of time and space, and become available in book form, could not Jesus as the Word of God, be made manifest in human form? If on earth, Muslims believe that the uncreated Word of God - i.e., the Quran - is found as a book making it both uncreated and created, then cannot the uncreated Word of God be revealed as a human, if God willed it? That God has willed this is revealed in the testimony of the Gospels - God's eternal self-expression, His Word, His Son, has entered human form as Jesus the Messiah.
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quote:Because of Muhammad's misunderstanding, Islam places limits on God's power.
The Quran says: Allah, Huwa a'la kulli shayin Qadeer
Translation: Allah, He is all powerful over everything.
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The incarnation is actually God becoming a human being so that we could understand or know Him and how to relate to Him better. It was a part of God's revelation of who He is to us. In Islam and all other religions, man is trying to reach up to God. However, in the Bible, God is trying to reach down to us as human beings and reveal Himself to us in a way that will enable us to relate to Him the way He wants us to relate to Him.
To understand the incarnation, you first have to understand the Biblical concept of Allah.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QB] Is God human or does God have human attributes? ]
Did you want a Islamic reference or others as well?
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posted
is there something wrong with your 'f' key or does that read right?
reference for what or what??
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Sands does He have a long white beard too?
Read again, again and if you have to over AGAIN:
1. Aqeedatul Wasitiyah: available at Darus Salaam bookstore in English 2. Aqeedatul Tahawiyah: As far as I know only available in the Arabic language 3. Usool Sunnah: Available Online for free. Just look up Imam Ahmed bin hambal (RA) and Usool Sunnah insha Allah
Then you will have the anwer to your questions BEFORE you meet my Lord Allah. [/QB]
So these are your beliefs sands? in these books?
Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah
35. "Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings."
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: ^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Sands does He have a long white beard too?
Read again, again and if you have to over AGAIN:
1. Aqeedatul Wasitiyah: available at Darus Salaam bookstore in English 2. Aqeedatul Tahawiyah: As far as I know only available in the Arabic language 3. Usool Sunnah: Available Online for free. Just look up Imam Ahmed bin hambal (RA) and Usool Sunnah insha Allah
Then you will have the anwer to your questions BEFORE you meet my Lord Allah.
So these are your beliefs sands? in these books?
Aqeedatut-Tahaawiyyah
35. "Anyone who describes Allah as being in any way the same as a human being has become an unbeliever. All those who grasp this will take heed and refrain from saying things such as the unbelievers say, and they will know that He, in His attributes, is not like human beings."
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: ^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
[/QB]
Yes, dear Ayisha I support that statement 100%!
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You have said that you think God has hands, face, eyes and fingers like humans do but the Islamic Belief that you claim you follow says He is not like humans
incase you didnt notice they contradict each other so which is it sands?
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: which one sands?
You have said that you think God has hands, face, eyes and fingers like humans do but the Islamic Belief that you claim you follow says He is not like humans
incase you didnt notice they contradict each other so which is it sands?
He is my position:
quote:Allah has all of the attributes which He describes Himself with in the Quran.
A wonderful book to read along with Shaykh's Muhammad ibn Khalifah Al Tamimi (may Allah preserve him) is (and I'll say it again): Aqeedatul Wasitiyah or Aqeedah Tahawiyah book books talks about the attributes (sifat) of Allah and Allah says he has hands..We don't know what His hands tabaraka ta'ala look like but there is no doubt He azza wa jal has hand, eyes and any other attribute which He has stated in the Quran.
Furthermore, it was a typo (which the sandman is known to do OFTEN).
There is nothing like unto Him Azza wa Jal.
Thank you for pointing out my typo. Inshaa Allah my position is clear.
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posted
I took that from Aqeedatul Tahawiyyah sands. It is still not clear whether you think God has hands, face, eyes, and fingers like humans do and you have replied to this same question 3 times now.
Do you understand the question?
Do you think God has hands face eyes and fingers like humans do
I dont see any typo, either you do or you dont, you have replied twice that you do, is that where you claim is a typo?
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Sands stated clearly Allah is not having features of Human ( hands, eyes, face, fingers ).
How many times someone needs to say it? 56?
THIS is the only CLEAR statement sands made in this subject
quote:^^ yes that is how I understood your post PI.."As humans do!"
and I can understand why YOU would see that as opposite to what it says on account of your lack of understanding anything written.
Now dont get into THIS 'debate' unless you have something to offer the thread besides more of your hateful attacks, ok?
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Its YOU who does not have the ability to understand that sands had CLEARLY stated that he DOES think that God has hands, face, eyes, and fingers LIKE HUMANS DO and now he is backtracking and saying 'typo', fine what TYPO??? and is his opinion still the same?
Your lack of comprehension and ability to focus on the issue in question is shinning brightly again today. I didnt say sands argued I said it was not clear NOW what his position was. Im sure you dont have to speak for him do you, its bad enough HIM not being able to answer a straight question without you and your inability to read and understand getting in the way.
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posted
I'm glad you started this thread Ayisha. Whenever I read the Koran, I wonder about these physical attributes that are associated with the image of GOD. However, I believe that there are many creatures in this world that have hands, face,eyes, and fingers, so it's very difficult to imagine what God, subhanu we Ta3ala is like.
Having said that I don't understand why some religions are so fixated about how God looks like. Who cares, is it really important?
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: A common point of disagreement between Muslims and Christians is the Christian belief that God does take on a human form and actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God. Yet, Christians do not believe that God in his essential nature is man, but only became man at the Incarnation. Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him.
Furthermore, according to the NT God actually became man in the person of Jesus Christ without ceasing to be God:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:1, 14
Hence, God in his essential nature is immaterial, invisible and spaceless. Yet, God assumed visible form and actually took on a physical body at the Incarnation of Jesus Christ without this effecting his invisible, immaterial divine nature:
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9
This is precisely the point that Muslims refuse to accept. Muslims think it inconceivable that their god, Allah could or would assume a visible form or actually become man.
Yet, interestingly both the Quran and hadiths affirm that Allah actually has a visible form and that Allah actually moves from place to place. Here is a sampling of Quranic passages affirming that Allah has a visible body:
The Quran Gives A Visible Form To Allah
By the Star when it goes down,- Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: He was taught by one Mighty in Power, Endued with Wisdom: FOR HE APPEARED (in stately form); While he was in the highest part of the horizon: THEN HE APPROACHED HIM AND CAME CLOSER, And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer; SO DID HE (God) CONVEY THE INSPIRATION TO HIS SERVANT- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey. S. 53:1-10 (Yusuf Ali's translation)
This passage clearly states that Muhammad saw Allah approaching him in visible form. Muslims have claimed that the person whom Muhammad saw was the Angel Gabriel. This interpretation will not work since the passage claims that the person that appeared to Muhammad was Muhammad's sovereign as indicated by the last part of the sentence, "TO HIS SERVANT." Unless Muslims want to claim that Muhammad is the servant of Gabriel, there is no avoiding the inescapable conclusion that the person whom Muhammad saw in visible form was none other than Allah himself.
Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger, Endued with Power, with rank before THE LORD OF THE THRONE, With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust. And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed; And without doubt HE SAW HIM IN THE CLEAR HORIZON. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen. Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed. S. 81:19-25
Again, the person whom Muhammad saw is none other than the Lord of the Throne, i.e. Allah. There is no other referent in the context of the passage and therefore the burden of proof is upon the Muslims to show that Muhammad did not see Allah visibly, but rather the Angel Gabriel. Noted Islamicist, F.E. Peters comments on the preceding Suras, specifically 53:1-12:
"None of the pronouns is identified in these verses, though there is little doubt that the recipient of the vision was Muhammad. Who was seen is less clear, and if Muhammad's being referred to as his 'servant' in verse 10 suggests that is God Himself, the Muslim tradition preferred to understand that it was Gabriel in all the other instances, chiefly because later in his own career Muhammad, as we shall see, had unmistakably come to the same conclusion. But there is no other mention of Gabriel in the Meccan suras, and it appears far more likely that God Himself first appeared to Muhammad 'on the high horizon' and then on a second occasion by the lotus tree near the 'garden of the dwelling' to show him 'the signs of his Lord.' Muhammad was clearly earthbound when he had his first experience, but where the latter vision took place, whether in a known locality in Mecca or, as is often thought, in some heavenly venue, is not further indicated. Neither is there anything to suggest that it was on either of these occasions that Muhammad received the words of the Quran.
"If Sura 53:1-18 seems to say that Muhammad believed that on two distinct occasions he had a vision of God, who thereby prompted him and showed to him His signs, the second vision is referred to only in briefing in passing. (Quran 81:19-27)
"Although verse 10 appears to refer back to the same vision 'on the high horizon' mentioned in 53:7-9, the Muslim commentators saw in the first three verses of this passage from Sura 81 an unmistakable reference to Gabriel. But there is abundant evidence that Muhammad not only did not identify Gabriel as the agent of revelation until his Medina days, but that while at Mecca he was criticized for the fact that God had not sent an angelic messenger: 'They said: "If your Lord had so pleased, He would certainly have sent down angels; as it is, we disbelieve your mission".' (Quran 41:14)
"Muhammad's earliest response did not encourage them to think that there was in fact an angel in God's revelation to him:
They say: 'You to whom the Reminder is being sent down, truly you are jinn-possessed! Why do you not bring angels to us if you are one of those who posses truth?' We do not send down the angels except when required, and if they came, there would be not repsite. (Ibid., 15:6-8)
And before you as well the Messengers we sent down were but men, to whom We granted inspiration. And if you do not understand that, ask the people who possess the Reminder. (Ibid., 16:43) (F.E. Peters, Muhammad and the Origins of Islam [State of University Press New York, Albany 1994], pp. 142-143)
The next set of hadiths clearly say that Allah appeared visibly and literally touched Muhammad:
Narrated AbdurRahman ibn A'ish Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: I saw my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious in the most beautiful form. He said: What do the Angels in the presence of Allah contend about? I said: Thou art the most aware of it. He then placed HIS PALM between my shoulders and I felt its coldness in my chest and I came to know what was in the Heavens and the Earth. He recited: 'Thus did we show Ibrahim the kingdom of the Heavens and the Earth and it was so that he might have certainty.' (6:75) Darimi reported it in a mursal form and Tirmidhi also reported. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 237- ALIM CD-ROM Version)
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was detained one morning from observing the dawn prayer (in congregation) along with us till the sun had almost appeared on the horizon. He then came out hurriedly and Iqamah for prayer was observed and he conducted it (prayer) in brief form. When he had concluded the prayer by saying As-salamu alaykum wa Rahmatullah, he called out to us saying: Remain in your places as you were. Then turning to us he said: I am going to tell you what detained me from you (on account of which I could not join you in the prayer) in the morning. I got up in the night and performed ablution and observed the prayer as had been ordained for me. I dozed in my prayer till I was overcome by (sleep) and lo, I found myself in the presence of my Lord, the Blessed and the Glorious, in the best form. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What these highest angels contend about? I said: I do not know. He repeated it thrice. He said: Then I saw Him put HIS PALMS between my shoulder blades till I felt the coldness of His fingers between the two sides of my chest. Then everything was illuminated for me and I could recognize everything. He said: Muhammad! I said: At Thy service, my Lord. He said: What do these high angels contend about? I said: In regard to expiations. He said: What are these? I said: Going on foot to join congregational prayers, sitting in the mosques after the prayers, performing ablution well despite difficulties. He again said: Then what do they contend? I said: In regard to the ranks. He said: What are these? I said: Providing of food, speaking gently, observing the prayer when the people are asleep. He again said to me: Beg (Your Lord) and say: O Allah, I beg of Thee (power) to do good deeds, and abandon abominable deeds, to love the poor, that Thou forgive me and show mercy to me and when Thou intendst to put people to trial Thou causes me to die unblemished and I beg of Thee Thy love and the love of one who loves Thee and the love for the deed which brings me near to Thy love. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: It is a truth, so learn it and teach it. Transmitted by Ahmad, Tirmidhi who said: This is a hasan sahih hadith and I asked Muhammad ibn Isma'il about this hadith and he said: It is a sahih hadith. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 245; ALIM CD-ROM Version)
The Quran also applies human qualities and characteristics to Allah:
So basically you are trying to tell us that the Koran is saying the truth? lol Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Is God human or does God have human attributes? So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
I can add another question, what was God doing before He created the universe? Try to figure out.
God is infinite and in everywhere, althought he spoke to Adam, Abraham/Ibrahim and Moses and they heard him which appeared his limitation to one place but still infinite In Exodus 33:20 God said "No one may see me and live" also Quran sura 7:143 quite the same meaning, so how God would be able to communicate with Humans by his heavenly nature, is there any way to communicate with humans and humans can live after that??
The human characteristics which attributed to God is to make it possible for humans to understand who is God because man is limited in his understanding; God and Moses were speaking to each other as if they were two human beings as in bible and Quran as well Sura 20:10-24 but it was in a way that Moses could understand and his weak human body could stand infront God, voice of God heard through a tree or fire as what happened to Moses this suppose to mean that God has the power to speak through anything tree, fire or even human.
If God's voice was heard to a human, it means God can speaks like us and if he speaks sure his speaking would be wisdom,light,truth…does this mean God have mind like us? If God creates his creatures by mind to think how the creator can't have?
Is God dead? Sure not otherwise God could be an Idea in our minds but not exist in real and if God is not dead it means he is living so the conclusion that God is exist, has mind and able to speaks, living not dead and this is by the way the definition if trinity creed in simple which is a hight level understanding to the minds who says God is one and stop thinking more.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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Jesus is seen in Christianity in the same way that the Qur'an is seen in Islam. Muhammad is seen in the same way that we see the Apostle Paul.
Jesus is the revelation of God, an expression that demonstrates who God is and what He is like. Even the Qur'an calls Him the "Word of Allah" (Kalamatullah), which is also what the Bible calls Him.
You see, God wanting to reveal Himself to us and be in a loving relationship with us, lowered Himself to become like us so that it would easier for us to relate to Him and know who He is. Jesus was and is that physical human form of God. As the Bible describe it, "God put on mankind like a garment." He put on a physical body, because many times we are limited as human beings to the physical world around us, and cannot fully understand the spirit world that God is a part of. He became like us so that we would be capable of understanding and relating to Him just like we would a loving Father. Because we know what Jesus is like, we have a better way of knowing who God really is and how to be able to relate to Him.
posted
...maybe God is a chick Posts: 2757 | From: YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT I CHOOSE TO SHOW, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE YOU JUST DONT KNOW | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I think Aiysha by somehow struggling to link her Christianity background with Islam but unfortunately Islam came to smash the core of Christianity faith and to remain on the top while other faiths considered blasphemy to Islam. So to accept Islam in which a complete religion to previous ones is a big deceives and illusion, anyway that's her choice.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: I think Aiysha by somehow struggling to link her Christianity background with Islam but unfortunately Islam came to smash the core of Christianity faith and to remain on the top while other faiths considered blasphemy to Islam. So to accept Islam in which a complete religion to previous ones is a big deceives and illusion, anyway that's her choice.
fresh, the only 'struggle' I think im having is in finding and pinning down The Truth, thats all im after. I have no problems 'linking' my Christian background to Islam, its all there in Quran anyway.
You say Islam came and smashed the core of Christianity in reference to me and how im seeing Islam, but the 'core' of Christianity as you see it is Jesus being either the son of God or God himself, or both, I never believed that anyway when I WAS a Christian, so thats not it
I fully accept Islam with no problems, but the Islam in Quran, not the man-made Islam that the masses seem to follow.
I didnt start this thread because i dont know the answer, it was to get other peoples ideas after I had read it in a book a long time ago when I had not been a convert very long. At least one member here follows this 'sect' of Islam which I find totally alien to Islam itself.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Fresh you raised some brilliant questions here and just what I was looking for!
quote:Originally posted by freshsoda:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Is God human or does God have human attributes? So, do we take from this that God does have eyes, fingers, hand and face as humans do?
I can add another question, what was God doing before He created the universe? Try to figure out.
God is infinite and in everywhere, althought he spoke to Adam, Abraham/Ibrahim and Moses and they heard him which appeared his limitation to one place but still infinite In Exodus 33:20 God said "No one may see me and live" also Quran sura 7:143 quite the same meaning, so how God would be able to communicate with Humans by his heavenly nature, is there any way to communicate with humans and humans can live after that??
The human characteristics which attributed to God is to make it possible for humans to understand who is God because man is limited in his understanding; God and Moses were speaking to each other as if they were two human beings as in bible and Quran as well Sura 20:10-24 but it was in a way that Moses could understand and his weak human body could stand infront God, voice of God heard through a tree or fire as what happened to Moses this suppose to mean that God has the power to speak through anything tree, fire or even human.
If God's voice was heard to a human, it means God can speaks like us and if he speaks sure his speaking would be wisdom,light,truth…does this mean God have mind like us? If God creates his creatures by mind to think how the creator can't have?
The bit I made bold is very well put.
We are human and God is not, we are created and God is not. We cannot possibly comprehend 'what' God IS so in our limited minds we have to 'make' Him 'similar' to a human being, a man. This is WRONG, God is NOT a man. God describes himself in HUMAN words that WE can understand, as human words is all we have. God 'communicates' in 'our' way to 'us'.
quote:Is God dead? Sure not otherwise God could be an Idea in our minds but not exist in real and if God is not dead it means he is living so the conclusion that God is exist, has mind and able to speaks, living not dead and this is by the way the definition if trinity creed in simple which is a hight level understanding to the minds who says God is one and stop thinking more.
Is God dead? I asked a similar question to a vicar when I was a child, he laughed.
'God made man in His image' is THE most misleading statement ever! This one statement forces you to think of God in terms of 'man' because we KNOW what WE look like, so we make God a 'man' like us. If that statement was 'God made man in the image of a monkey' we would all be worshipping monkeys as being the image of God, they do have hands, face, eyes and fingers too.
God is NOTHING LIKE ANYTHING HE CREATED. To think of Him in terms of 'man' limits Him, He is beyond limits. He only needs 'say' BE and it IS, but is this 'say' as in how WE 'say' something? No, because that makes Him a man again!
There is no way on this earth I can believe God has fingers, hands, eyes and face in terms of how we 'think',ie. as humans do. We will never be able to comprehend 'what' God IS and we shouldnt be trying to 'make' Him 'human'.
I think this is one of the reasons some Christians think of Jesus as God, or the son of God or both, but 'human'. I never could 'click' with the explanation of the trinity, fresh, so please dont try to explain it Honest I have heard it a million times and it wont go in, but i can see HOW this has happened if we are 'forced' into thinking we are made in God's image just by that one statement.
So is God dead or alive? there we make Him human again. Does 'alive' mean 'living'? Something thats 'living' eventually 'dies'. Attributes of creation and not created.
Im going a bit 'deep' here I think I better stop
Hubby says I think too much
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Thanks Mr Egypt. There is something in here that I am having difficulty with and would appreciate your input please.
"To imagine Allah in a certain form is not correct. The safest way for a Muslim is to believe in all the attributes of Allah is without adding any interpretation. To negate the attributes of Allah altogether or to compare Him to someone is a deviation from the right path. Our Lord is unique and without any equal at all."
So we are not to imagine Allah in any form, ok I get that.
"Whosoever questions us and says, ‘Do you believe God has a face?’, the answer is: ‘We believe it contrarily to the belief of the innovators; and His words ‘And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will abide forever’ (Qur’an 55:27) are a proof of it.’"
Here I am starting to get confused This is saying we believe He has a face but we believe that 'contrarily to the innovators', what does that mean?
"If anybody says, ‘You do not deny that God’s words ‘from what Our hands have made’ and His words, ‘before him whom I have created with My two hands’ are metaphorical", the answer is: The rule of the Word of God is that it is to be interpreted literally and truly, and a thing is not transferred from its literal meaning to a metaphorical one, except by proof."
So we are to take hands and face as their 'literal' meaning, as hands and face that 'we know' of like humans
"We therefore affirm these attributes of Allah (swt) and realize that
"There is nothing like unto Him" (Qur’an 42:11), that
"There is none comparable to Him" (Qur’an 112:4)"
Now based on what I have quoted so far that God has hands and face, the first sentence here 'affirms' that, but the following 2 say there is nothing like him etc. Something contradicts here as we are saying 'yes He has hands and face' but then we say 'there is nothing like Him', if He has hands and face then there IS something like him. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Thanks Mr Egypt. There is something in here that I am having difficulty with and would appreciate your input please.
"To imagine Allah in a certain form is not correct. The safest way for a Muslim is to believe in all the attributes of Allah is without adding any interpretation. To negate the attributes of Allah altogether or to compare Him to someone is a deviation from the right path. Our Lord is unique and without any equal at all."
So we are not to imagine Allah in any form, ok I get that.
"Whosoever questions us and says, ‘Do you believe God has a face?’, the answer is: ‘We believe it contrarily to the belief of the innovators; and His words ‘And the Face of your Lord full of Majesty and Honour will abide forever’ (Qur’an 55:27) are a proof of it.’"
Here I am starting to get confused This is saying we believe He has a face but we believe that 'contrarily to the innovators', what does that mean?
"If anybody says, ‘You do not deny that God’s words ‘from what Our hands have made’ and His words, ‘before him whom I have created with My two hands’ are metaphorical", the answer is: The rule of the Word of God is that it is to be interpreted literally and truly, and a thing is not transferred from its literal meaning to a metaphorical one, except by proof."
So we are to take hands and face as their 'literal' meaning, as hands and face that 'we know' of like humans
"We therefore affirm these attributes of Allah (swt) and realize that
"There is nothing like unto Him" (Qur’an 42:11), that
"There is none comparable to Him" (Qur’an 112:4)"
Now based on what I have quoted so far that God has hands and face, the first sentence here 'affirms' that, but the following 2 say there is nothing like him etc. Something contradicts here as we are saying 'yes He has hands and face' but then we say 'there is nothing like Him', if He has hands and face then there IS something like him.
But Ayisha as I said above, there are many creatures in this world that have hands and faces, so God subhanu we ta3ala, could have these qualities but in a unique form that we have never seen before.
Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Undercover: [QB] Jesus is seen in Christianity in the same way that the Qur'an is seen in Islam. Muhammad is seen in the same way that we see the Apostle Paul.
Jesus is the revelation of God, an expression that demonstrates who God is and what He is like. Even the Qur'an calls Him the "Word of Allah" (Kalamatullah), which is also what the Bible calls Him.
QUOTE]
Lol so in your opinion the Koran is once again saying the truth? Don't you see? You keep walking into the same trap! Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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If on earth, Muslims believe that the uncreated Word of God - i.e., the Quran - is found as a book making it both uncreated and created, then cannot the uncreated Word of God be revealed as a human, if God willed it? That God has willed this is revealed in the testimony of the Gospels - God's eternal self-expression, His Word, His Son, has entered human form as Jesus the Messiah.
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Hubby says I think too much
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This is saying we believe He has a face but we believe that 'contrarily to the innovators', what does that mean?
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