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Through the New Testament it is made very clear that Jesus is indeed God, revealed as The Word of God.
John the Baptist, a prophet chosen of God, bore witness to Jesus's prior existence, that He was from the beginning. He took upon Himself a human body to make known truth and redeem mankind.
John 1:1-5 Before anything else existed, there was Christ, with God. 2 He has always been alive and is himself God. 3 He created everything there is--nothing exists that he didn't make. 4 Eternal life is in him, and this life gives light to all mankind.
NIV John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
NIV John1:9-15 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'" 16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
The Almighty Designer became part of His Creation, confined by time, space and age to rescue and give to mankind the gift of Eternity with Him. The Word as a human being came in the fulfilment of promises made. The Word of God, Jesus, carried out and accomplished for us our Redemption, which was planned in Genesis at the beginning.
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Ayisha, simply whatever your mind makes you imagine to be Allah, He isn't Allah. Nothing like Him. 016.074 SHAKIR: Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know.
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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Exactly Dalia, im glad there is someone here with a brain who doesnt try to twist what I say.
Mr Egypt i dont imagine Allah to be anything but a Force or Power, you need to discuss the human factors with sands and LML who see Him with hands etc. I alreasy KNOW that which you are pointing out as Dalia said, that was my whole point in this thread.
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Read the verse Ayisha: Therefore do not give likenesses to Allah; surely Allah knows and you do not know. so don't say He has face like humans but He has a face. say He has eyes but don't say like humans or anything else.
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Mr Egypt, read what I said and read what sands said. It was sands who claimed 'like humans do' NOT ME. Are all you people BLIND? Am I typing in a totally alien language?
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Mr Egypt, you did not read the thread properly.
You are trying to convince Ayisha of the very same thing she said before:
I have read the thread from the start Dalia so don't assume things here, I am not debating Ayisha on this , I am giving her my personal view as she didn't start this thread because she doesn't know the answer but to get other people views on the subject
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Mr Egypt, read what I said and read what sands said. It was sands who claimed 'like humans do' NOT ME. Are all you people BLIND? Am I typing in a totally alien language?
I have a question for you Ayisha, just curious. Did you ever imagine the likeness of God when you were Christian ?
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No Mr Egypt as I was aware then also that God is nothing like anything in His creation. I was fully aware He was not a 'man' or in the form of a human with any human likeness whatsoever.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: No Mr Egypt as I was aware then also that God is nothing like anything in His creation. I was fully aware He was not a 'man' or in the form of a human with any human likeness whatsoever.
Does the bible give such description to God ?
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The doctrine of the Trinity begins with the assumption that the true God is not totally comprehensible to man because God is not totally comprehensible to man. Any god we could fully understand and explain would be no greater then what we are. But although God is not FULLY comprehensible to man He is comprehensible to man as much as He has revealed Himself to us. The inescapable truth is that God will and must always be greater than our finite capacity to understand fully or to explain exhaustively.
Our failure or understand or explain fully the Trinity or any other aspect of God is not due to some defect in God or in His revelation but rather the result of the fact that God is infinite and we are finite and our abilities and intellects are limited.
If the Trinity were fully understandable, this in itself, would be an indication that it is erroneous. Christians are not ashamed that the Trinity is difficult to comprehend, that we are left with unanswered questions, because the Trinity is a mystery and we boast in it, 1Cor 1:31.
But to say the Trinity is not totally understandable or explainable does not mean that it is irrational, illogical, or unknowable at all. We simply that God is beyond man's ability to understand or explain exhaustively and beyond man's understanding not contrary to it. We can have limited but true knowledge of God. Jer 9:23,24; Dan 11:32; Jn 17:3; Gal 4:8,9; 1Jn 4:4-8; 5:18-21.
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Proof from the Qur'an and Sunnah that the Attributes of Allah are to be taken literally
As for the Qur'an:
Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.” (Az-Zukhruf: 3)
As for the Sunnah:
1). On the authority of Abi Yunus Saleem bin Jabeer, Mawlah of Abu Hurayrah that he said, “I heard Abu Hurayrah reciting the verse, “Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts..” until, “surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing” (Annisa’a: 58) He said, “I saw the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) put his hand on his ears and eye.” Abu Hurayrah (radhiallahu ‘an) said, “I saw the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) recite this verse and do that.” (Abu Dawood, Ibn Khuzaymah, Ibn Habban, At-tabarani, Ibn Mindah) Ibn Yunus said, that Al-Muqre’e said, “Surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing, means that Allah sees and hears.” Abu Dawood said, “And this is a refutation of the Jahmees.” In this hadeeth we see that the attributes of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) are to be taken literally. This doesn’t mean that Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) is similar to the creation, He is above that. As Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) said, “there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees” So He affirms hearing and seeing to himself, while negating that it is like any creation.
2). On Ubaydallah bin Maqsim that he was looking at Abdullah bin ‘Umar talking about how the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) talked and said, “Allah (Azza Wa Jal) will take the heavens and earth with his hands and will say, “I am Allah” and he will straighten his fingers and then constrict them, and then say, “I am the King” when I looked to the pulpit I saw it shaking because of something moving under it, to the point that I said it will not fall with the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ) standing on it” (Muslim) From this we see the affirmation of Allah clenching and straightening his fingers without comparing it to that of the creation.
3). In a long hadeeth on the authority of Abdullah bin Mas’ood (radhiallahu ‘an) that the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said in the end of this hadeeth, “The slave asks Allah to enter him into Jannah, Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Would you be happy if I gave you from Jannah similar to the earth and what is in it?” The slave says, “Do you mock me and you are the Mighty Lord”—the narrator then says that Abdullah bin Mas’ood then laughs, and then says, “Why don’t you ask me why I am laughing?” They said, “Why did you laugh?” Ibn Mas’ood said, “The Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) laughed, then said to us, “Why don’t you ask me why I am laughing?” We said, “Why are you laughing of Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam)?” He (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, “Allah laughs when this person says, “Do you mock me and you are the Mighty Lord?” (Ahmad, Abu Awanah, Abu Yahla, Ashaashe, Attabarani, Al hHkim) This hadeeth shows the literalness of Allah’s laughing.
4). On the authority of Jabir (radhiallahu ‘an) that the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) used to increase in saying, “Oh changer of the hearts, make my heart firm on your religion.” Some of the Sahaba said to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam), “Do you fear for us after we believed in you, and what you brought?” He said, “Indeed the heart is between 2 fingers from the fingers of Allah (Azza Wa Jal)” he said like this, and Abu Ahmad moved his fingers. (Abu Ya’lah, Tabare, Addarqatne, ibn Minda) This shows the literalness of Allah’s fingers.
5). On the authority of Hammad bin Salama that he said, “The fingers have been affirmed on the authority of Anis bin Malik on the Prophet when Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) said, “And when his Lord appeared to the mountain.” He said, “Like this” And he showed a piece of his little finger. My father said that Mu’adh related this to us, and Hameed Attaaweel said to him, “What do you want from this oh Abu Muhammad--- or, does this confirm the fingers?” He said so he hit him in his chest with a powerful blow and said, “And who are you oh Hameed? And what are you oh Hameed? Anis bin Malik relates this to me on the authority of the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) and you say, “What do you want from this?!”
6). On Abbas (radhiallahu ‘an) that he said, “A Jew passed by the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) and the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said to him, “Oh Jew, tell us something.” So the Jew said, “What do you say Abu Qasim about when Allah takes the heavens on this, the earth on this, the water on this, the mountains on this, and all of the creation on this.” And Abu Ja’far Muhammad bin Assilt pointed to his little finger for the first one then to the next finger until he reached the thumb. And Allah revealed, “No just estimate have they made of Allah, such as is due to Him.” (Tirmidhee classified it as strange but authentic, Ahmad, Ibn Khuzama and others) And Abdullah said in “Assunnah” I heard my father may Allah have mercy on him say, “Yahya bin Sa’eid told us of the hadeeth of Sufyan on Al ‘Amash on Mansoor on Ibraheem on Abeed on Abdullah on the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) that he said, “Indeed Allah holds the heavens on his fingers.” My father may Allah have mercy on him said, “Yahya showed us with his fingers, going from finger to finger until he reached the last one.” (Bukhari and Muslim) These affirm that Allah has fingers, as well as their literalness, without comparing them to the fingers of the creation.
7). Harith bin Suwayd said, “I entered on Abdullah while he was sick, he gave us two talks, one about himself, and the other a hadeeth on the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) where he said, “Allah is happier with repentance of his slave than a person who is in the desert, and with him is his animal which has all his food and drink, so he sleeps, and when he wakes he finds his animal gone, then he looks for it and finally stops from thirst and says, “I will return to my former place and sleep until I die.” So he puts his head down to die, and when he wakes he sees his animal with his food and drink still on it. So Allah is happier with the repentance of his slave, than this man would be with finding his animal.” (Bukhari and Muslim) And this hadeeth affirms the attribute of happiness to Allah, and shows its literalness.
8). Abu Razeen (radhiallahu 'an) said, "The Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, "Our lord laughs from His slaves' desperateness although His relief is near." I said, "Oh Messenger, the Lord laughs?" He said, "Yes." I said: "We will never miss out on goodness from a lord who laughs" (Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Ateyalsee, and others) From this we know that the companion understood the attribute of Allah laughing and its literalness, and it shows good and mercy.
9). On Jabir (radhiallahu ‘an) in the long hadeeth about the Prophet’s (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) Hajj, from the speech on Arafah he said, “And indeed I left for you something of which you will not be misguided if you held to it, the Book of Allah, and you ask from me, so what will you do?” They said, “We bear witness that you gave us the message and advised us.” So he said while pointing his index finger to the sky, “Oh Allah bear witness, Oh Allah bear witness.” three times. (Muslim) This hadeeth proves that Allah is above the heavens with the pointing of the Prophet towards the sky.
Source: الأشاعرة في ميزان أهل السنة لفيصل الجاسم
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.” (Az-Zukhruf: 3)
The majority of World's Muslims are non-Muslims who can't understand or read Arabic. If the Quran is so universal for all the world, then why does one have to learn arabic to understand the religion?
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says, “Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you may understand.” (Az-Zukhruf: 3)
The majority of World's Muslims are non-Muslims who can't understand or read Arabic. If the Quran is so universal for all the world, then why does one have to learn arabic to understand the religion?
Just because SOME Muslims don't take the time to learn the language in which Allah spoke is not the fault of Allah. Arabic is the language in which the Quran was revealed and it the language in which the deen has been preserved in.
Again Allah said that He made the Quran in Arabic so that we will understand it. There are millions of people's whose mother tongue is NOT Arabic, however, they have taken the time to learn the language of Arabic both written and spoken.
When Islam spreaded in the past, so did the language of Arabic, however, this is not the case today and many make themselves dependent on translations verses taking the time to learn and study Arabic. Egypt was not a Arabic speaking country prior to Islaam. However, today the Arabic is the spoken language of the country walhamdulilah. The same holds true for many countries prior to their people accepting of Islam.
The issue for Muslims is to learn the original language in which the Quran was revealed. When they do not learn the Arabic lanaguage and those people will be limited to the Islamic information which has been preserved in the Arabic language because they will only be dependent of books that have been translated. Many of the scholars of the past book's have not even been translated. The amount of information that is available in the English language is extremely limited in comparsion to the Arabic language which the Quran and ahadeeth were written in.
Again if Muslims today fail to do so i.e. learn the language of Arabic then it doesn't mean that the Quran or Islaam will cease to be understood. Each individual is responsible for his/her own soul. Which paths that they take they will ultimately be responsible for their actions.
Even people like you undercover if you take the time to learn Arabic, even you will see Islaam in a different light wa Allahu Ta'ala Al Alim.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Whe Islam spreaded in the past so did the language of Arabic. Egypt was not a Arabic speaking country prior to Islaam. However, today the Arabic is the spoken language of the country walhamdulilah. The same holds true for many countries prior to their people accepting of Islam.
The hadith no. 5751 (Mishkat, Vol. 3) reports the Prophet saying:
"Love the Arabs for three reasons because (1) I am an Arab (2) the Holy Koran is in Arabic and (3) the tongue of the dwellers of paradise shall also be Arabic."
"(O Prophet) tell people if you really love Allah, follow me, and if you act like this, then Allah will love you, too, and He will forgive your sins." (The House of Imran, III: 30)
Thus, to be a Muslim, a non-Arab believer has to live as an Arab to qualify for Allah's love and pardon. All Muslims must learn the Arabic language to be able to recite the Quran and to offer prayers, adopt Arabic names and conform to Islamic (read Bedouin Arab) culture. This is naked Arab imperialism in the guise of religion.
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posted
sands again you use the word 'proof' and provide none.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: No Mr Egypt as I was aware then also that God is nothing like anything in His creation. I was fully aware He was not a 'man' or in the form of a human with any human likeness whatsoever.
Does the bible give such description to God ?
As a non-trinitarian, there is a verse out of Genesis in which its stated that Adam was created out of the likeness of the Creator himself and non-human animals don't resemble the Creator.
Mr. Egypt are you afraid to open the Bible or Torah and look to see if this description is there?
Or are you just asking in order to create an arguement?
Posts: 1455 | From: debtville | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Mr Egypt, you did not read the thread properly.
You are trying to convince Ayisha of the very same thing she said before:
I have read the thread from the start Dalia so don't assume things here, I am not debating Ayisha on this , I am giving her my personal view as she didn't start this thread because she doesn't know the answer but to get other people views on the subject
Logic lesson for mr. egypt.
Your opinion is different than Ayisha's doesn't mean your opinion is the "answer" and since Ayisha disagrees with your opinion doesn't mean she is wrong or doesn't have a right to her opinion.
Also other people's views even if they did match your own opinion doesn't meant prevailing or popular opinion makes popular opinion fact.
Fact isn't democratically voted in, fact is proven with evidence and logic. Most often reviewed by a panel of "experts" and not trolls on an internet forum.
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Whe Islam spreaded in the past so did the language of Arabic. Egypt was not a Arabic speaking country prior to Islaam. However, today the Arabic is the spoken language of the country walhamdulilah. The same holds true for many countries prior to their people accepting of Islam.
The hadith no. 5751 (Mishkat, Vol. 3) reports the Prophet saying:
"Love the Arabs for three reasons because (1) I am an Arab (2) the Holy Koran is in Arabic and (3) the tongue of the dwellers of paradise shall also be Arabic."
"(O Prophet) tell people if you really love Allah, follow me, and if you act like this, then Allah will love you, too, and He will forgive your sins." (The House of Imran, III: 30)
Thus, to be a Muslim, a non-Arab believer has to live as an Arab to qualify for Allah's love and pardon. All Muslims must learn the Arabic language to be able to recite the Quran and to offer prayers, adopt Arabic names and conform to Islamic (read Bedouin Arab) culture. This is naked Arab imperialism in the guise of religion.
The hadeeth above is Daeef (WEAK) and is not authentic.
Thats your opinion about naked Arab imperialism.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: You say Islam came and smashed the core of Christianity in reference to me and how im seeing Islam, but the 'core' of Christianity as you see it is Jesus being either the son of God or God himself, or both, I never believed that anyway when I WAS a Christian, so thats not it
You say you never believed that when you was Christian, it means you wasn't a Christian but it was only label, the core of Christianity is the redemption of Jesus on cross not only the title son of God which Quran failed to change it from Christian's minds because it's matching the logic, when the angel came to Mary, informed her, God would send a gift to her a (boy) his name would be Messiah as per bible and Quran sura 3:45
" The angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter "
Have you Noticed the words " Allah giveth…a word from him…his name is ISA" Logically because the boy hadn't an earthy father ,his name came from God directly,so people simply called him son of God regardless of what he did or said after that ,that's the story as you know and if you can call him other than son of God or Son of Mariam your help will be appreciated.
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I TIMOTHY 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Anthropomorphism is the attribution of uniquely human characteristics and qualities to nonhuman beings, inanimate objects, or natural or supernatural phenomena. Animals, forces of nature, and unseen or unknown sources of chance are frequent subjects of anthropomorphous. The term is derived from two Greek words, anthropos, meaning human, and morphe, meaning shape or form. ...
It is a common and seemingly natural tendency for humans to perceive nonhuman animals or inanimate objects as having human characteristics, one which some suggest provides a window into the way in which humans perceive themselves. Common examples of this tendency include naming cars or begging machines to work. It is also probably true that humans have a natural tendency to deny common traits with other species, most particularly apes, feeling that humans are unique and "special." This tendency may be described as anthropomorphophobia and has been referred to as Anthropodenial by primatologist Frans de Waal, author of Our Inner Ape and other books and articles.
In religions and mythologies
In religion and mythology, anthropomorphism refers to the perception of a divine being or beings in human form, or the recognition of human qualities in these beings. Many mythologies are almost entirely concerned with anthropomorphic deities who express human characteristics such as jealousy, hatred, or love. The Greek gods, such as Zeus and Apollo, were often depicted in human form exhibiting both commendable and despicable human traits. Anthropomorphism in this case is sometimes referred to as Anthropotheism.
In Biblical literalism
Numerous sects throughout history have been called anthropomorphites, including a sect in Egypt in the 4th century, and a group in the Roman Catholic Church in the 10th century, who literally interpreted Genesis chapter 1, verse 27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."
In Hinduism
The ten avatars of the Hindu supreme god Vishnu possess both human and divine forms and qualities, although their degrees of divinity vary. In Vaishnavism, a monotheistic faith, Vishnu is omniscient and benevolent, in contrast to gods of the Greek and Roman religions. See Conceptions of God in Hinduism.
Opposition to anthropomorphism
Many religions and philosophies have condemned anthropomorphism for various reasons. Some Ancient Greek philosophers did not approve of, and were often hostile to their people's mythology. These philosophers often developed monotheistic views. Plato's (427–347 BCE) Demiurge (craftsman) in the Timaeus and Aristotle's (384–322 BCE) prime mover in his Physics are notable examples. The Greek philosopher Xenophanes (570–480 BCE) said that "the greatest god" resembles man "neither in form nor in mind." (Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies V xiv 109.1-3). The similarity of these philosophers' concepts of god to the concepts found in the Bible facilitated the incorporation of much pre-Christian Greek philosophy into the Medieval Christian world view by the Scholastics, most notably Thomas Aquinas. Anthropomorphism of God is condemned by Islam, since Muslims feel that God is beyond human limits of physical comprehension. This conception is also championed by the doctrinal view of Nirguna Brahman.
From the perspective of adherents of religions in which the deity or deities have human characteristics, it may be more accurate to describe the phenomenon as theomorphism, or the giving of divine qualities to humans, rather than anthropomorphism, the giving of human qualities to the divine. According to their beliefs, the deity or deities usually existed before humans, therefore humans were created in the form of the divine. However, for those who do not believe in the doctrine of the religion, the phenomenon can be considered anthropomorphism. In fact, Stewart Elliott Guthrie, in his book Faces in the Clouds: A New Theory of Religion (1993), theorizes that all religions are simply anthropomorphisms that originate in the human brain's tendency to over-detect the presence or vestiges of other humans in the natural world.
Interestingly, Charles Dodgson's novel Alice's Adventures in Wonderland was banned in Hunan because "animals should not use human language" and it "put animals and human beings on the same level."
quote:Originally posted by Reality_Meanie: Mr. Egypt are you afraid to open the Bible or Torah and look to see if this description is there?
Or are you just asking in order to create an arguement?
as a Muslim , I don't believe what you call the torah say and I was just curious if Ayisha believes the description of God which mentioned in it. and btw, thank you for the lesson
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