posted
Sudan: "You must convert to Islam if you want your daughter back"
Once again we see government officials complicit in the Muslim persecution of Christians.
Islamists Suspected in Abduction of Christian Girl in Sudan Hiba Abdelfadil Anglo Widow loses her job after taking time off to try to recover kidnapped daughter.
NAIROBI, Kenya, February 22 (CDN) — A Christian widow in north Sudan is agonizing over the kidnapping of her daughter eight months ago by suspected Islamic extremists in Khartoum.
“Since my daughter was kidnapped, I have been living in a state of fear and terror,” said Ikhlas Anglo, 35, a mother of two daughters.
She said her 15-year-old daughter, Hiba Abdelfadil Anglo, went missing while returning from the Ministry of Education in Khartoum on June 27, 2010. Hiba, a member of Sudan Presbyterian Evangelical Church in Khartoum, had gone to the education ministry office to obtain her transcripts for entry to secondary school.
Two days later, the family received threatening telephone calls and SMS messages from the kidnappers telling them to pay 1,500 Sudanese pounds (US$560) in order to secure her return.
“Don’t you want to have this slave back?” one of the kidnappers told Anglo from an unknown location by cell phone, she said.
Anglo and others said they believe the kidnappers are Muslim extremists who have targeted them because they are Christians, and that police are aiding the criminals. She said that when she went to a police station to open a case, police bluntly told her she must first leave Christianity for Islam.
“You must convert to Islam if you want your daughter back,” officer Fakhr El-Dean Mustafa of the Family and Child Protection Unit told Anglo, she said. Recently transferred to another station, Mustafa was not immediately available for comment.
A relative of the girl said police are fully involved in the crime, as officers had traced the phone number of the kidnappers but were reluctant to admit that to the girl’s family.
‘‘The police have a direct link with the kidnappers,’’ the relative said.
Adding to the anguish of the kidnapped girl’s family was Anglo’s dismissal from her job when she took time off to search for Hiba. Anglo said her supervisor at Asia Health Center, where she had worked for many years as a cleaner, had told her to report back to work after recovering her daughter, but after a month she was surprised to learn that she had been fired as of July 1, 2010.
“They dismissed me because I was looking for my daughter, although they have given me permission,” she said.
Christians in north Sudan are anticipating increased persecution due to a referendum that gave the right of self-determination to the people of south Sudan, the majority of whom are Christians. On Jan. 9, south Sudan voted for secession in order to establish a zone free of sharia (Islamic law). Northern Christians fear further dangers after July 9, when south Sudan will officially become an independent nation.
President Omar al-Bashir, wanted by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity in Darfur, has stated that the rights of southern citizens remaining in the north after secession will be respected. But Christians’ fears grew after he said in December that an altered constitution would be based on sharia and that Islam would be the official religion.
Nearly four months ago, police allegedly helped a Muslim businessman to seize property belonging to the Sudan Presbyterian Evangelical Church in Khartoum (See www.compassdirect.org, “Police in Sudan Aid Muslim’s Effort to Take Over Church Plot,” Oct. 25, 2010). http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/sudan/33341/
"You must convert to Islam if you want your daughter back"
How many times do imagine a terrified Infidel parent has heard those words over the past 1400 years?
“Don’t you want to have this slave back?” one of the kidnappers told Anglo from an unknown location by cell phone, she said.
Only Muslims consider children "slaves".
"The police have a direct link with the kidnappers," the relative said"
This is almost as common as the above, where the police in Dar-al-Islam are fully complicit with kidnapping of Infidel girls, and their rape and coerced conversion.
We have heard similar stories out of Egypt and Pakistan, and many other parts of the Muslim world.
Now that Sudan has lost much of its non-Muslim south to succession, it will probably be targeting its own remaining Christian and animist population more savagely than ever.
I don't know if they will accept someone "pretending" to convert to Islam. From what I have heard, anyone who is forced to convert is then watched as if by hawks for any sign of recidivism. You know, for signs of "hypocrisy", for not meaning it. Absolutely gross. Force them and then expect them to suddenly be devout. I think they then force them to take lessons in Islam etc.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Good to see you're spending your holy day of the week on a roll spreading your hate about Islam. Have a nice day. Don't forget to go to church and pretend to be pure.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Good to see you're spending your holy day of the week on a roll spreading your hate about Islam. Have a nice day. Don't forget to go to church and pretend to be pure.
Seems Vwwvv and TL are both Muslim haters on ES..They are both time wasters on ES.
Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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I've never seen anyone on ES state that they hate Muslims? Surely, marydot, you don't condone this sort of treatment of Christians in Egypt? Or is it just that should no-one mention it, 'cause it upsets some people who live in denial?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: So you call my criticism of Islam hatred
This is as silly as saying:
'stop spreading hatred about a food you don't like'
'stop spreading hatred about anyone who disagrees with your views' etc. etc.
quote:
vwvwwww or what ever ur name. why u spread hatred against the food u dont like ? there are so many people like the food u dont like . also if they agree with u and u agreed with them so u all will die coz no one will eat the food he hates .
why u spread hatred about any one disagrees with ur views? i thought u like democracy.
any way all ur posts show that u r childish and sick. u need a special treatment.
u see although im not agree with u but i will spread hatred against u and i will not eat the food u dont like as long as i like it.
if u hate Islam. there are more than a billion people love it.
so my advise for u is just concentrate only in ur life and dont involve urself in the others life. go to church and live a peaceful life. enjoy ur beliefs and ur life. and stop spreading hatred for every thing u dont like. just think about the things u like. and love humanity. Posts: 305 | From: egypt | Registered: Jul 2008
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"go to church and live a peaceful life. enjoy ur beliefs and ur life."
That will be fine, as long as she doesn't live somewhere where the Muslims suddenly decide that they want to kidnap her to force her convert, or to kill her. That's very reassuring, I'm sure. Thank you so much for your words of wisdom.
I'll ask you the same questions as I asked marydot: As you seem to regard the reporting of these facts to be indicative of a hatred of Muslims, do you therefore condone this treatment of Christians? And, do you think that reporting the forced conversion or murdering of Christians is wrong, should it just be "hushed up" for the sake of some spurious notion of peace?
Please don't come back with a tirade of insults, I'm not some kid who'll run away in tears!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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So if all Muslims are responsible for the acts of fundamentalists, are all Christians responsible for the acts of the IRA? Every wrong doing that was ever carried out in the name of Christ in Ireland?
Blatant hypocrisy.
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: That will be fine, as long as she doesn't live somewhere where the Muslims suddenly decide that they want to kidnap her to force her convert, or to kill her.
I'm pretty sure that forcing a person to adopt Islam is against Islamic teachings. If you said 'fundamentalists' then fair enough, but where you say 'Muslims' above, I don't think that's right at all.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: So if all Muslims are responsible for the acts of fundamentalists, are all Christians responsible for the acts of the IRA? Every wrong doing that was ever carried out in the name of Christ in Ireland?
Blatant hypocrisy.
Many Muslims or in fact the majority of them have strong humanistic values. Unfortunately we do not see these values coming to fruition in Islamic countries. They are nipped in the bud because the laws of Sharia and the teachings of the Quran are against them. Unfortunately Muslims blame this on the “fundamentalists”. Only when you read the Quran you realize that the culprit is not fundamentalism but Islam itself.
If Muslims commit these acts is because they find justification in Quran and the examples of their Prophet Muhammad. Muhammad was a fundamentalist himself that is why you cannot separate fundamentalism from Islam. That is why so many have failed to reform Islam. Throughout the history there have been many individuals who tried to reform the Islam, but they all failed because Quran’s teachings and Muhammad's examples are very clear. Fundamentalists win because they have the Quran on their side.
The IRA was not claiming to blow things up in the name of their religion, justifying their actions by reference to Christian scripture, etc. Nor was the IRA an international movement with a program calling for the subjugation the world under its system of law and societal mores. Islamism is. Islamists today, explain that they are acting in the name of Islam, and quote Quran copiously.
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Nor was the IRA an international movement
I wont bother with the rest of the rubbish, but the IRA are STILL to this day receiving funds from the USA, just thought I'd mention that.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I'm pretty sure that forcing a person to adopt Islam is against Islamic teachings.
It doesn't matter what YOU think. It only matters what Muhammad did and what the Quran says.
Ok. Forcing a person to adopt Islam is against Islamic teachings. Is that better?
Frankly I don't care for your tone at all. I don't debate with folk who USE CAPITAL LETTERS TO SHOUT AT ME BECAUSE I DON'T AGREE WITH THEIR POINT OF VIEW.
I'm out. Have a ball.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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Monkey, please don't put words into my mouth. It would be just silly to even suggest that all Muslims are responsible for the acts of the Fundamentalists among them. That is exactly why I am waiting for the Muslims on this board to flood the place with their posts denouncing these heinous acts! On the other hand, can you name me a Muslim country where other religions are allowed to practice normally, remembering that, above all else, Christianity is an evangelizing religion. Or maybe a nominally Christian country where Muhammadanism is banned, or even severely restricted?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Monkey, please don't put words into my mouth. It would be just silly to even suggest that all Muslims are responsible for the acts of the Fundamentalists among them. That is exactly why I am waiting for the Muslims on this board to flood the place with their posts denouncing these heinous acts!
Why? That will only open the door to a flood of 6 long copy pastes at a time by vw 'proving' anything that's said as 'false' according to her. Personally I can't be arsed, leave her to her hate campaign and yes that is exactly what it is. It's people like her that cause religious unrest and you my dear friend live in the very centre of a Muslim city in a Muslim country and you have managed not to be kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam! Obviously you don't dare go out too much OR this is only done BY the fundies, which thankfully are few here.
I will add that in the last month we have seen this country united, Christian and Muslim, together as one nation, but dear old vw has gone out her way to find the minor, no matter how small and no matter where from, reports that are still trying to drive a wedge through that unity.
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Ok. Forcing a person to adopt Islam is against Islamic teachings. Is that better?
If you're a Christian mother and want your daughter back, there's no compulsion to convert to Islam, only you won't get your daughter back if you don't. It's a totally free choice, right? Most people would do and say anything to save the life of a member of their family and pretending to be a Muslim would be a small price to pay.
As regards to the no compulsion verse in Quran, know that it later abrogated by Muhammad. And perhaps you are unaware that in the lands conquered by Muslims they offered, as Quran and Sunnah tell them to offer, only three possibilities to non-Muslims: death, conversion, or the status of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity known as that of the "dhimmi."
That third option was open, of course, only if the conquered people happened to be ahl al-kitab, People of the Book, that is Christians or Jews, or came to be treated as such at some point, as happened to Zoroastrians and, after some 60-70 million of them had been killed, even the Hindus so as to keep the Jizyah flowing.
Isn't that a form of "compulsion" in religion?
If one is forced to pay a burdensome tax, forbidden from suing Muslims at law, forbidden from repairing or building new houses of worship, forbidden from marrying a Muslim woman without converting to Islam first, forbidden from all kinds of things that add up to a condition that in many cases was nearly unendurable, isn’t that compulsion in religion? Over time, those Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians who constituted, outside of Arabia proper, the original population of the Middle East and North Africa, steadily became more and more islamized.
That certainly constitutes "compulsion in religion." The history of Islamic conquest shows that there has been, from Spain to the East Indies in space, and from the seventh century until now in time, a great deal of "compulsion in religion" by Muslim rulers on the non-Muslims they conquered. And there is to this day, with intolerable pressures put on the most helpless, such as the Mandeans in Iraq, or to a lesser extent, the Copts in Egypt, the Christians in Lebanon and in the "West Bank," and the Chaldeans and Assyrians of Iraq.
Of course in Islam there is "compulsion in Islam." It's all over the place, and not only in the Middle East. When Christian schoolgirls are decapitated in Indonesia, and thousands of churches burned, or Buddhist villagers decapitated all over southern Thailand, or Hindus beaten to death in Bangladesh, or attacked in Pakistan, or driven out by the hundreds of thousands from Kashmir, when if they converted to Islam they would be left alone, surely over time that has its effect. Not everyone can heroically withstand such persecution and threat of murder and actual murder.
That may be defined as "compulsion in religion."
In Muslim states, without the cameras of the world press whirring, forced conversions occur all the time. Ask the Christian and animist blacks in the southern Sudan, or the Hindus of Bangladesh and Pakistan, or any number of helpless non-Muslims trapped, with no one to pay attention, deep within Muslim countries.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Once again we see an Islamic supremacist blame the victims of Islamic jihad aggression for that aggression itself. Muslims bombed a Coptic church in Alexandria last month, murdering 21 people, and last Tuesday, Muslims murdered a priest - and Zawahiri has the Islamic chutzpah to say, "The first among those who are responsible for setting the situation ablaze is the leadership of the Coptic Orthodox Church under the leadership of the one called Pope Shenouda III."
And the second...maybe fourth among them, who are fanning the fires of the blaze, is yer honor, yer honor...
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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It is the intolerance of other peoples' views that cause religious unrest. Most people nowadays are atheists or agnostics, they criticize and even mock Christianity, yet Christians chose not to be offended. There are many Muslims who hate Islam but would never dare to voice their concerns for fear of being mocked, bullied or ostracised from their communities. In a free society everyone should be free to criticize any ideology he likes, we should respect all people but not all ideas.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: It is the intolerance of other peoples' views that cause religious unrest. Most people nowadays are atheists or agnostics, they criticize and even mock Christianity, yet Christians chose not to be offended. There are many Muslims who hate Islam but would never dare to voice their concerns for fear of being mocked, bullied or ostracised from their communities. In a free society everyone should be free to criticize any ideology he likes, we should respect all people but not all ideas.
Yes I agree, it is the intolerance of your views that cause unrest. I don't come here daily pasting anti Christian propaganda as you do about Islam. Yes there are bullies in ALL religions, there are bullies in ALL communities, not just Islam as you would like to show. There is immense hypocricy in them too, especially in the 3 major religions. Yes criticize away if it makes you feel better but don't try saying this is a Christian thing and that is a Muslim thing because that is so far removed from the truth it's laughable. I respect you AND your right to believe as you wish, I do not respect how you have to continually bring up what YOU see as Islam and Muslims and the belief side of things based on your disbelief.
There are Christians on this forum I have immense respect and LOVE for and there are athiests the same. They don't feel the need to continually bash me or Islam or Muslims and they are confortable in their beliefs and in mine, you don't seem to be at all.
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: I've never seen anyone on ES state that they hate Muslims? Surely, marydot, you don't condone this sort of treatment of Christians in Egypt? Or is it just that should no-one mention it, 'cause it upsets some people who live in denial?
I'm glad you have never seen this, but i have!
She goes by the name of Tigerlilly.
She is the immature Muslim harasser on ES.
The Mods have proof of this when i reported her.
Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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Title of this tread cracks me up. When you see it in the main listing it's "You must convert..." Ayisha, then "You must convert..." Marydot.
Don't take it literally vw. It's just a few pixels on a page. It isn't a direct order from God.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Title of this tread cracks me up. When you see it in the main listing it's "You must convert..." Ayisha, then "You must convert..." Marydot.
Don't take it literally vw. It's just a few pixels on a page. It isn't a direct order from God.
quote: Title of this tread cracks me up. When you see it in the main listing it's "You must convert..." Ayisha, then "You must convert..." Marydot.
That must look very interesting.
Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: It is the intolerance of other peoples' views that cause religious unrest. Most people nowadays are atheists or agnostics, they criticize and even mock Christianity, yet Christians chose not to be offended. There are many Muslims who hate Islam but would never dare to voice their concerns for fear of being mocked, bullied or ostracised from their communities. In a free society everyone should be free to criticize any ideology he likes, we should respect all people but not all ideas.
quote:There are many Muslims who hate Islam but would never dare to voice their concerns for fear of being mocked, bullied or ostracised from their communities.
I have never heard any muslim person say this.
What i have quoted of yours, don't make much sense to me!!!
Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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"I do not respect how you have to continually bring up what YOU see as Islam"
Whatever is that supposed to mean. Of course I will bring up what I see as Islam, I am not YOU, and I see things through my own eyes. Otherwise what would be the point?
"There are Christians on this forum I have immense respect and LOVE for and there are athiests the same."
They are your friends, I am sure some of them you know personally in real life. But, these persons are not even interested in religion, they do not even participate in 'Religion', and avoid to express their views for fear of offending you. I have atheists, Muslims friends too. Yet they feel free in my presence to criticize Christianity. They know I won't take offence.
In this forum 'your friends' know they will be branded as 'haters' of Egypt, Islamophobes and God knows what else, at the sligtest hint of criticism of Islam or Egypt, so they refrain from voicing their views. They are liked and loved as long as they keep their opinions to themselves. Even Tigerlilly is now branded as an Islamophobe and 'hater' of Egypt, for posting Egyptian news articles (!) Tigerlilly is a hater, I am a hater, basically everyone who disagrees with your worldview is a hater of Egypt and Islam. No wonder noone dares to post anything in this section of ES.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: In this forum 'your friends' know they will be branded as 'haters' of Egypt, Islamophobes and God knows what else, at the sligtest hint of criticism of Islam or Egypt, so they refrain from voicing their views.
Name them. And then they can speak for themselves.
Posts: 1678 | From: New Egypt Forum - http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "I have never heard any muslim person say this."
Of course you haven't. People who say things like this are being sent to mental hospitals.
I'm sure your local mental hospital would save you a bed . Go and sign yourself in, you'd fit well in there.
Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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18 posts so far, and not even Ayisha could bring herself to actually denounce the culprits!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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I dont have any friends on here, i just ramble between threads Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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""They are your friends, I am sure some of them you know personally in real life. But, these persons are not even interested in religion, they do not even participate in 'Religion', and avoid to express their views for fear of offending you. I have atheists, Muslims friends too. Yet they feel free in my presence to criticize Christianity. They know I won't take offence.
In this forum 'your friends' know they will be branded as 'haters' of Egypt, Islamophobes and ""God knows what else, at the sligtest hint of criticism of Islam or Egypt, so they refrain from voicing their views. They are liked and loved as long as they keep their opinions to themselves. Even Tigerlilly is now branded as an Islamophobe and 'hater' of Egypt, for posting Egyptian news articles (!) Tigerlilly is a hater, I am a hater, basically everyone who disagrees with your worldview is a hater of Egypt and Islam. No wonder noone dares to post anything in this section of ES""
Wrong, Of_Gold, Doro, is a very respected and much loved friend of mine and someone I would consider a good Christian. She posts in here a lot and we have argued in here often, it lessens my respect for her not one jot.
I also consider TL a friend and respect her immensely.
quote:originally posted by ourluxor: 18 posts so far, and not even Ayisha could bring herself to actually denounce the culprits!
I denounce it and them, happy now?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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ourluxor, There are lots of clashes between muslims and christians.
I will say that Both are ignorant and do not understand their religion.
Our God is one. The message is one.
If My daughter is kidnapped by a christian gang and they told me to become christian and get my daughter back. I will tell them I am christian however I am a muslim.
True christian ( who does not believe in Jesus as a deity) is a muslim and believer and Once He discover the message of Muhammed He will get that It is the same like the message of Isa to worship God alone without partners.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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AGREE WITH U ONCE UPON TIME. a Muslim cant force another person to embrace Islam. because all muslims know that .one of the main conditions to be a muslim is to BELIEVE in ur heart and act like what u believe .
so if u say i am a Muslim that doesnt mean u became a muslim.
and im sure if u force me to say im christian that doesnt mean u won and i became a christian .
so u should believe in ur heart and see that in ur actions. who can control any person`s heart but himself. Posts: 305 | From: egypt | Registered: Jul 2008
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So glad to hear that your faith is strengthened after reading my 'anti-Islamic stuff'. Please write to the Saudis, the United Arab Emirate, Iran and many other Islamic countries and tell them to stop blocking sites with 'anti-Islamic' content, so that everyones' knowledge of Islam improve and their faith strengthen just like you. Spread the news among your Muslim brothers and sisters so all of them may strengthen their faith. Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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"a Muslim cant force another person to embrace Islam. because all muslims know that"
all Muslims know that?
"Sanao Menghwar and his wife, a Hindu couple residing in Karachi, Pakistan, were traumatized one November evening in 2005, when upon returning from work they discovered that all their three daughters were missing. After two days of futile searching, they found out that their daughters had been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam. The police arrested three Muslim youths in connection with the crime, who were later granted bail by a court because they were minors. The girls remain missing.
“Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamped papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,” says Laljee, a Hindu resident of Karachi. “Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger — they fear victimization,” he added.
Many Hindu girls meet similar fates in Pakistan. They are abducted, forced to convert to Islam and forced to marry a Muslim man while their parents are denied the right to see or talk to them. “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs (infidels)?” remarked Maulvi Aziz, the cleric representing a Muslim kidnapper in another case that was taken to the court.
When a Hindu girl is converted to Islam, hundreds of Muslims take to the streets and chant religious slogans. The cries of the parents fall on deaf ears of the authorities. The unfortunate girls are then threatened that if they recant Islam they would be executed as apostates. Often lawyers avoid taking up these cases, fearing a backlash from the extremists."
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: a Muslim cant force another person to embrace Islam.
Again, it doesn't matter what *you* think but what Muhammad said and done.
"When Muhammad and his followers were about to attack Mecca to subjugate it to Islam, his adherents arrested Abu Sufyan, one of Mecca's inhabitants. They brought him to Muhammad. Muhammad told him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to realize that there is no God but the only God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "I do believe that." Muhammad then said to him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul." The 'Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: "Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword." Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim." (Ibn Hisham, "The Biography of Muhammad" (Part 4, Page 11)
It is also mentioned and attested to by contemporary scholars such as Dr. Buti in his book, "The Jurisprudence of Muhammad's Biography", p. 277. He repeated it on page 287 because such stories incite the admiration of the Buti and bring him joy. Yet Dr. Buti feels that some people will protest, especially liberals and the civilized international society, who believe that faith in a certain creed ought not to be imposed by the threat of death. Therefore, he said (p. 287) the following: "It may be said, 'What is the value of a faith in Islam which is a result of a threat? Abu Sufyan, one moment ago, was not a believer, then he believed after he was threatened by death.' We say to those who question: 'What is required of an infidel or the one who confuses other gods with God, is to have his tongue surrender to the religion of God and to subdue himself to the prophethood of Muhammad. But his heartfelt faith is not required at the beginning. It will come later."' This is God in Islam, my dear friends—a God who is satisfied with the testimony of the tongue of a person who is under the threat of death. But "the heartfelt faith" will come later! The important thing is to increase the number of Muslims either by threat or by propagation! Dr. Buti was more than frank, and we would like to thank him for that, yet we would like to tell him that Christianity rejects the testimony of the mouth if it does not stem from faith that is rooted in the heart first.
The story of Abu Sufyan reveals clearly that Muhammad does not care much about the faith of the heart, especially at the beginning, as Dr. Buti suggests. What is really important is that professing faith is a natural response to the threat of death. The threat is very clear: Testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God or you will be beheaded. The story concludes: Abu Sufyan professed the testimony of "truth" immediately! In his book, "The Biography of the Apostle", part 4, Ibn Hisham says (page 134): "Muhammad sent Khalid Ibn al-Walid to the tribe of the children of Haritha and told him: 'Call them to accept Islam before you fight with them. If they respond, accept that from them, but if they refuse, fight them.' Khalid told them: 'Accept Islam and spare your life.' They entered Islam by force. He brought them to Muhammad. Muhammad said to them: 'Had you not accepted Islam I would have cast your heads under your feet"' (refer to page 134, and also see Al Road Al Anf, part 4, pp. 217, 218. You will find thttp://www.hraicjk.org/forced_conversion_and_prophet_muhammad.htmlhe same incident).
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Look how many Westerners convert to Islam to make their Egyptian husbands happy, on paper they are a Muslim... in their heart they may not be.
do u have any examples for what u said ?
i never forced my wife to convert to Islam and will never do.
my best mate married to a German girl and never forced her to convert.
another friend is going to get married soon from an American girl and he never forced her to . convert . we are all happy.
all what happens is our wives asking us Questions and we answer and also books about Islam are every where . if they like what Islam says then they say we want to be Muslims and if not so no one allowed to force his wife to embrace Islam coz that is against Islam.
Posts: 305 | From: egypt | Registered: Jul 2008
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Again, it doesn't matter what *you* think but what Muhammad said and done.
And THAT is where yours and many others problems lie and why I said you're doing ibn Kathir and Bukhari a great favour. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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