quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "a Muslim cant force another person to embrace Islam. because all muslims know that"
all Muslims know that?
Yes all 'Muslims' know that.
There is no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Look how many Westerners convert to Islam to make their Egyptian husbands happy, on paper they are a Muslim... in their heart they may not be.
do u have any examples for what u said ?
i never forced my wife to convert to Islam and will never do.
my best mate married to a German girl and never forced her to convert.
another friend is going to get married soon from an American girl and he never forced her to . convert . we are all happy.
all what happens is our wives asking us Questions and we answer and also books about Islam are every where . if they like what Islam says then they say we want to be Muslims and if not so no one allowed to force his wife to embrace Islam coz that is against Islam.
Did I say 'forced to convert?' No, I said look how many Westerners convert to please their partners.
Do I have examples, yes Plenty, but I doubt the only one you may know to would be happy if I plastered her life all over the WWW for all and sundry to see. But I am sure if you ask outright she will tell you if she still reads these threads!
I should also mention I know an English guy who on paper is a Muslim as her married an Egyptian lady... he told me over a bacon sandwich and a beer.
I also know of a couple of other western dudes who are on paper Muslim.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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These hadiths about Muhammad are consistent with the explicit or implicit teachings of the Quran. With all these evidences and by what we find in the Quran, we can conclude for example that killing the apostates is very much in sync with what Quran teach.
We have SO many authentic hadiths that depict Muhammad in a certain way. Many of these ahadith berate the same story from different narration chains, from believers that couldn't have known each other.
The books of Bukhari are not one person’s opinion. They are collections of thousands of tips. And since we have thousands of hadiths like this, it really does not matter even if some of them are not true. We get the picture of Muhammad when we read ALL of them.
These are the ONLY sources of information about Muhammad available to us. We know about Socrates because Plato wrote about him. So far no own has questioned what Plato said, nor has called him a liar. But if people start doubting Plato, call him a liar who fabricated stories and passed them as truth, (basically what you say about the biographers of Muhammad) then we cannot be sure that Socrates existed.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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I know what Bukhari collection is and 'authentic' on whose authority? a man? many men?
yes of course it does matter if some are not true, what kind of ridiculous statement is that?
From the original collection of Bukhari, who was born 200 years after Muhammed died, less than 1% are considered at all close and the majority of those are abu hurairah a well know liar and story teller.
We don't need these as 'the ONLY sources of information about Muhammed' he's not God, we have Quran which clearly states THAT is what you follow and clearly states NOT to follow any other HADITH but that, yes it says the word Hadith as well.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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"There is no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error."
Here is what Islamic scholars say about this verse:
“The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut , 1983, p. 269.]
“Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims.”[ibid p. 270]
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "There is no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error."
Here is what Islamic scholars say about this verse:
“The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut , 1983, p. 269.]
“Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims.”[ibid p. 270]
ROFLMAO Don't you have a life at all?
Carry on, I can see it's your purpose in life, enjoy. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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37 posts further on and only Ayisha can denounce the murderers and kidnappers. Thank you Ayisha, although I always knew you would! Anyone else?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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"True christian ( who does not believe in Jesus as a deity) is a muslim and believer and Once He discover the message of Muhammed He will get that It is the same like the message of Isa to worship God alone without partners."
Once Upon a Time, if you truly believe this utter nonsense; then you have even less understanding of Christianity than I had originally imagined!
There is, indeed, one God! The three facets of the one and only God have been discussed on here many times, and as such I do not intend to do so again now. As I have written before "There are none so blind as them that WILL NOT see, nor as deaf as those that WILL NOT hear".
A Christian will only ever gain a relationship with the true God because of His unbounded love for us. Whereas your Muhammad would take us back to the Old Testament ways where we hope to gain that relationship and the everlasting life by keeping certain rules!
Although many of his new rules replicate those of the Jews, Muhammad had some different ones recorded in the Quran as well. The whole concept doesn't work. I pity your life of uncertainty!
"vwwvv, I am glad of what you post. The more you try to post anti Islamic stuff, Islam gets stronger.."
And, do you really believe that Islam gets stronger because kafirs, and whatever else the unbelievers are known as, are being informed of the atrocities which are carried out in Islam's name? (Are you taking some sort of dope, perhaps?) Are you able to bring yourself to condemn the killers and kidnappers, I wonder, even though you seem to believe that their actions strengthen Islam? Perhaps even, in that case, you believe that they are actually doing Allah's will?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: ex muslim, bit like those fanatical ex smokers.
Although I am not an ex-Muslim, it is true that ex-Muslims become the strongest opponents of Islam once they leave it.
There is a fundamental difference between Muslims leaving Islam and the Christians leaving their religion. Most born and raised Christians when leaving Christianity, become critical of the Church and the Bible but still respect Christ. The person of Jesus as is reported in the Bible, is a loving person and free from any blemish. Many Christians also cannot get rid of Christianity because their God is the God of love. At least this is what they are being told and this is the idea they have of their God.
Muslims on the other hand when they learn the fallacies of Islam and discover the real face of Muhammad, they hate that religion and despise its founder. Muslim dissidents hate intensely Muhammad.
A man who wishes to emulate Muhammad in this day and age is a man that should be locked in jail. Those who follow truly the example of the Prophet of Islam are dangers to society. One can be a good Christian and still be a good person. But one CANNOT be a good Muslim, follow all those hate mongering teachings of Muhammad, and be a good human being at the same time.
Christianity still has spiritual lessons to give. It can still be a source of guidance and inspiration to its followers. The same cannot be said about Islam. Quran is replete with intolerance, violence, discrimination and hate for the enemies of Islam.
That is why Christianity has survived the age of enlightenment and has been able to adapt itself, to the changing world. Islam would not survive the light of reason. Islam's answers to criticism has been imprisonment, and execution. In Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan you can even lose your life if you are found with a Bible, let alone books that are critical of Islam.
All these things about Islam and Muhammad never discussed among the Muslims. How could they? Muhammad created such an atmosphere of terror that any whisper of doubt was dealt with mercilessly.
But now Muslims can talk about these issues. They can question what was taboo. They can even criticize and reject Islam and live to see the next day. This is new! The Internet has provided a unique opportunity for the Muslims that was unthinkable since the inception of Islam and that is to question it.
The Internet is going to make a revolution. This would be the revolution of minds. Muslim countries cannot prevent their subjects from using the Internet. For 1400 years ignorance was safeguarded by Mullahs. Today the Mullahs are powerless. They can no longer control the minds. One enlightened mind is more powerful than a billion ignorant ones.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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OurLuxor, Do you think I condone the killing and kidnapping in sudan or in Egypt or any where based on religion or color or nationality or any thing?
If you have a doubt that I condone killing or torturing or crimes, I consider this a bad insult.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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It would be a very bad insult indeed, if you did not give us all the impression, by your own words, that this may be the case!
Please re-read the last paragraph of my last post, and your post from which the quotation is taken. What other interpretation can be put on your words? Couple this to the fact that, even now, you will not condemn the perpetrators of these acts, and what else are your readers supposed to elicit from your own writing? It isn't in my nature to go around insulting people, especially without a good reason.
Here we are 44 posts after I asked the question, and out of all the Muslims who have read this thread, only Ayisha (bless her) has felt able to condemn the villains. Are the others in accordance with what has transpired, or are they fearful of putting their heads above the parapet, or do they just not feel the need to answer a question from an "unbeliever"? None of us can read the minds of others, we can only form our own opinions etc. on what people say, write or do.
I apologise, unreservedly, if I have understood "I am glad of what you post. The more you try to post anti Islamic stuff, Islam gets stronger" in regard to vwwvv's original post, to be anything other than that which you intended. Perhaps you could elucidate further?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: ex muslim, bit like those fanatical ex smokers.
Although I am not an ex-Muslim, it is true that ex-Muslims become the strongest opponents of Islam once they leave it.
You should go and read some Islamic forums in order to see same applies for some ex-Christians.
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: ex muslim, bit like those fanatical ex smokers.
Although I am not an ex-Muslim, it is true that ex-Muslims become the strongest opponents of Islam once they leave it.
Ah sorry, must have been vwvwvw that was muslim for 30 years before turning to Christianity. As it wasnt you I wont waste time finding the post.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:The more you try to post anti Islamic stuff, Islam gets stronger
You are most welcome to write your proofs that Islam is a true religion, post them and let everyone read and learn the truth. What can be better than that? You have the opportunity to use this forum to promote Islam and help, not only the former Muslims, but everyone to know that Islam is a true religion of God.
We have to respect people and their rights to believe in anything they choose, but not what they believe. I must respect your right to believe in Islam, but this does not mean I must respect Islam. Same goes for Christianity. We must respect the right of atheists to criticize and, if they wish to "mock" or joke about Christianity.
We hear a lot that we must respect people’s beliefs. That is baloney. We don’t have to respect any belief, not even our own. We must always question beliefs.
Furthermore do Muslims respect the beliefs of others? Why is it that they insult the Jews, the Christians and kill the Baha’is, the Sikhs, the Ahmadis and the Hindus wherever they are the majority and have the upper hand? Isn’t the Sura Fatiha that Muslims recite daily an insult to non Muslims? Forget the Muslims; did Muhammad respect the belief of the people of his time? Why did he break into Ka’ba and destroyed that temple? Wasn’t that a sacrilege of the religion of the Arabs? He could start his own mosque elsewhere, why did he have to assault and insult the deities of the people? He set the example for other Muslims to follow and as the result his followers are as intolerant as he was. They constantly fight with each other, call one another heretics and kill one another. Do you know that more Muslims have been killed in the hands of fellow Muslims in sectarian fights than they have been killed in wars in the hands of non-Muslims? This killing is still going on.
When Muslims ask others to respect their faith, they should take a closer look at how they respect the faiths of others. Muslims enjoy a lot more freedom and rights in non-Muslim countries than they grant other religions in Islamic countries. Islamists say that lawmakers who oppose the Sharia must be killed. Is this how you respect people’s belief? You ask for respect when you give none.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:The more you try to post anti Islamic stuff, Islam gets stronger
If Islam is a religion of peace, why its history is not peaceful? Do you see how easy it is to disprove Islam?
Christianity, Crusades, witch hunts, burning at the stake, I could go on.
Glad I got that before you edited it OUT! Proof that you already KNOW that Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Laura: ^^^ Plagiarizing Shaytan
No. that is reason and common sense. Plagiarizing Shaytan would be to quote verses that call for the maiming, killing or subjugating of unbelievers.
Confucius said “Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself.” Jesus said, "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31.
This is satanic: "Unless you go forth, Allah will punish you with a grievous penalty." sura 9:39
These are the teachings of a demon who wants to create hate among us humans and destroy us. He is helpless and powerless but he can lie and he can deceive and he can use the fools to do his demonic work.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Laura: ^^^ Plagiarizing Shaytan
No. that is reason and common sense. Plagiarizing Shaytan would be to quote verses that call for the maiming, killing or subjugating of unbelievers.
Which are easy to find in Torah, yet you don't direct your hatred to Jews for their Holy Book
quote:Confucius said “Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself.” Jesus said, "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31.
So this is what you would have others do to you? Or can you not practice what you preach>
quote:This is satanic: "Unless you go forth, Allah will punish you with a grievous penalty." sura 9:39
Do you not see yourself as 'going forth' in the cause of what you perceive to be God? Why is that wrong for Muslims and fine for you? Should we all be stagnant and not move forward?
quote:These are the teachings of a demon who wants to create hate among us humans and destroy us. He is helpless and powerless but he can lie and he can deceive and he can use the fools to do his demonic work.
Sounds more like what you are doing. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Christianity, Crusades, witch hunts, burning at the stake, I could go on.
..and in doing so they were in absolute defiance of the teachings of Christ.
When a Muslim wages war in the name of Allah, or kill apostates he is doing so in strict adherence and allegiance to the teachings and example of Muhammad. Jesus never fought a war, Muhammad waged over sixty wars. With the exception of Uhud and Khandaq (Trench), all of them were incursions..this is like a criminal accused of more than three scores of armed robberies, murders and assassinations plead innocence on the ground that in two occasions he had to fight back in self defense when his victims turned against him.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Did I say 'forced to convert?' No, I said look how many Westerners convert to please their partners.
quote:
both of them are lying on themselves and live a fake life. if my wife will convert to please me then i dont want to be with a liar . but if she want to convert for the sake of GOD and she recognized that is the right decision to take and really believe . i will help her. and if she doesnt believe then i will celebrate her feasts and occasions with her. coz i respect and believe in all the holy books.
Posts: 305 | From: egypt | Registered: Jul 2008
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You say I spread “hate”. Can you show me where I spread hate? Is quoting verses from Quran spreading hate? Is trying to destroy racism or religious intolerance hate mongering? Is fighting against Nazism spreading hate against Germans? I am fighting Islamic fundamentalism because it IS spreading hate. It is absurd to say that I spread hate. All you have to do is to demonstrate that I am wrong and the teachings of Quran are teachings of tolerance and universal love. Can you do that?
We should study the Quran and take out those teachings that promote the hatred of the Jews, the Christians and the atheists. You can fight against terrorism motivated by religious frenzy only by knowing what Quran teaches and reforming it.
To quote Ali Sina:
Of course Muslims are not all terrorists. I am a born Muslim and I am not a terrorist either. None of my family members and friends is terrorist. There are many saints among Muslims. I am not talking about Muslims. I am talking about the teachings of Quran that call for violence. Many of those teachings can supply admonition for the terrorists. They can find justification for their acts of terrorism, violence and hate. Look at these verses of Quran and click on the hyperlined numbers to read them in their “context”. You say that these verses are misunderstood, then let us change them so no one can misunderstand them.
These are the very verses that the Taliban uses to commit their crimes. These are the verses that Khomeini kept quoting to murder hundreds of thousand of people in Iran. These are the verses that inspired the terrorists to destroy the WTC and the Pentagon. If they are misinterpreted and misunderstood by so many Muslims, let us delete them from the Quran. How can one say Islam is a religion of peace while there are so many verses in Quran that call for killing, maiming and crucifying the unbelievers? The average Muslim does not know these teachings. Most of them are very good people. But those who follow these teachings of Quran become Khomeinis and Bin Ladens. This is what we have to aviod.
Do you know how many women do not report violence against them in Islamic countries because they cannot produce a male witness other than their male assaulter? Furthermore as a defender of Islam you should agree with the Prophet who said, “women are deficient in intelligence"
I doubt you are that kind of woman. I suspect you are quite a liberated woman who likes her independence and the equality that the secular West has bestowed upon her. I imagine you are going to university and aspire to become a professional, to work and contribute to the world. In that case you already live the reformed Islam. What I propose is let us make these changes in the Quran so no Taliban or Hezbollah can abuse the teachings of Quran and justify his crimes by quoting the violent verses of that book. Why do you want keep unto a book that you don’t like to follow?
I think I explained this several times. There is not just one but millions of Muslims who are exemplars for goodness. Many of them I know personally and love them dearly. My fight is not against Muslims but against what Quran preaches. Muslims are victims. They are like patients and the violence prescribed in Quran is the disease. I want to eradicate the disease not kill the patients. Good people will do good and evil people will do evil but as Steven Weinberg says "For good people to do bad things, it takes religion". Unfortunately many verses of Quran encourage good people to do bad things and that is why we should get rid of them.
I do not spread hate but love. If you take away that prejudice from your eyes you would see that there many hate messages laden in Quran that any decent human being would want to get rid of them. Would you call those who fought against Nazism hate mongrels? Would you say those who opposed the South African apartheid prejudiced? Are those who fight against human right abuses, bigotry and hate, hateful people? If so I am guilty as charged.
My whole purpose in writing is to help my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters to wake up from their slumber and realize that Islam needs to be reformed and that the teachings of Quran in this day and age are not conducive to any good. Those teachings are responsible for our backwardness, poverty and miseries. Muslims are the main victims of these antiquated beliefs.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Confucius said “Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself.” Jesus said, "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31.
So this is what you would have others do to you? Or can you not practice what you preach>
I practice what I preach. I respect the right of atheists, Muslims and Christians to criticize my faith. I do not call them names for doing so. I treat them as I would like to be treated.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Well People it's been awhile since I posted in this forum.
Let me state that people who quote from the quran should not be called "Haters" or "Not following Christ" etc. The quran is a hard book to follow BECAUSE of all the verses in it that promote violence against others.
I live in a community with lots of muslims....I truly believe that they don't really understand whats in the Quran because they would not think of attacking others because of opinion. I have never disrespected them over their choice of following a mad man like muhammad who promoted that women are less then men and you need 2 women witness for every male witness, Forcing people to pay taxes for not being killed by militant muslims etc.
Sadly people seem to love attacking people on these forums who ask simple questions to muslims or posts verses from the Quran that jives with the "peace" that islam is.
I was talking with a Afghanistan man who claimed he was not a muslim any longer....I never thought of asking him why he turned from Islam. All I can say is that there is people seeking truth and sadly Islam is not about truth it's about intimidation and threats...Hence the reason why muslims are quick to attack others who are not believing in the confusing nonsense found in the Quran. You hope more muslims read and study the quran so they realize why a man named muhammad benefited from fooling people into following him.
All his wives, slaves and wealth he got from islam shows he was all about himself. The Hadiths are even harder to stomach then the suras. Really when Men and women will be in markets in Heaven for muslims to pick and choose which person they want, you know muhammad had issues.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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For the light of the truth to shine, it is necessary that the clouds of lies dissipate.
If the gardener neglects the garden, weeds will suffocate the flowers. Someone must tell the truth.
You can never reform Islam. It is firmly built on lies. You can only demolish it by exposing those lies and by telling the truth.
Reforming Islam is an exercise in futility. It is impossible and it will frustrate the efforts of those who try it. There can’t be a moderate Islam just as there is no such thing as healthy disease or sensible insanity. Islam is extreme. To fight Islamic extremism you have to fight Islam.
Islam was a dream of a psychopath. His insane dream materialized because he believed in it. He passed his raving ideas to others who mindlessly believed and perpetuated them to this day. We can stop this insanity by having a different dream – the dream of unity of mankind. Believe in it and pass it on and strive to achieve it with religious fervor. Have faith in its realization and confidence that we will be victorious. Reality starts in our minds. Only believers will succeed. Those who have faith will win.
You ask me why I am so passionate. It is because I am aware of the power of faith. We are waging a war against the insanity of a billion misinformed souls who religiously believe in a lie and are willing to kill and die for it. We can’t afford to doubt. We can’t vacillate and falter. Only if you believe in our success and are motivated, can you motivate others.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Jihadists fight their Jihad with swords and bombs.
Ali Sina fights 'his' Jihad with his pen.
It is said that the pen is mightier than the sword. Who do you think will win?
Ali Sina: I think truth is not revolutionary at all. Truth is just stating the obvious. The fact that you and most other people find this site truthful is because it states the obvious. There is nothing revolutionary in saying sun is bright, water is wet, fire is hot, ice is cold, etc. Then why the truth about Islam sounds so revolutionary? It is because we have been fed with lies. Those of us who are born Muslims are fed with lies from day one and the rest are told the truth that may hurt the sensitivity of others must not be told. Since Muslims have petal like delicate skins, they scream and will not hesitate to kill you if you hurt their sensitivity, no one tells the truth and this lie has been perpetuated to such an extent that now stating the obvious sounds like a revolutionary act.
Most concepts that today sound truisms, were once deemed to be revolutionary and even heretical. Today, we all know for a fact that the Earth is round and it is going around the Sun, that sky is not a dome and at least the majority of us know that the world was not created 6,000 years ago. Yet all these truisms were once revolutionary and heretical claims. They sounded revolutionary because of the predominance of lies. Once the truth is given a chance, it will always destroy the lies, just as the light of the dawn destroys the darkness of the night. Now that we have the freedom to speak, the days of Islam are numbered. Islam cannot stand the truth. It will melt like ice under the heat of the sun. The hotter it is, the faster the ice will melt. This site is hot. Very hot!
Many good intentioned people advise me to tone down. What does that mean? Do they want me to tell only half the truth lest saying it all may be shocking? I leave that advise to others. I tell all the truth, naked and and unaltered. Is it ugly? Is it shocking? Well, that is the truth. If it is hard to swallow, take it one bite at a time.
posted
I like the sound of this Ali Sina guy...Im going to find some more of his stuff to read before I sleep!
Posts: 314 | From: australia | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Which are easy to find in Torah, yet you don't direct your hatred to Jews for their Holy Book
I don't direct my 'hatred' towards Jews because they don't call me names or insult me when I criticize their faith, and I appreciate this fact. I will not stop posting about Islam until some Muslims like yourself 'get it'. The day I will be able to freely speak my mind in an Islamic country will be the day I will stop criticizing Islam.
I must say I have much more respect for once_upon_a_time than I have for people like you. He has never attacked me or insulted me for stating my opinion. His replies are always respectful. Indeed Muslims like once_upon_a_time give other Muslims a good name.
As regards to Torah, those tales of violence in the Old Testament are not teachings. They are stories of what allegedly happened. There are no teachings of violence in the Old and New Testament. Whereas violence in Islam is enjoined upon all Muslims till eternity and jihad is regarded as the most meritorious act.
Nor did the Crusaders start the war. Muslims attacked first and the Crusaders responded. We must thank them. If they had not fought and destroyed the Muslims, today the modern world would not exist. Muslims wants Vatican to condemn the killing of Muslims that happened 1000 years ago. Have Muslims issued any apology for all the killings perpetrated by Muhammad, his rightly guided caliphs and 1400 years of killing? Over 280,000,000 is estimated that were killed by Muslims.
Violence is not part of the teaching of Jesus but the Church adopted it after being attacked by Muslims. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunt were all inspired by Islam. Just as today the blasphemy laws that persecute those who speak against Islam is inspired by Islam.
Could thirty years ago anyone imagine that in 2010 the Dutch government would prosecute a Dutch citizen for speaking against Islam? If Muslims have it their way, those who criticize Islam will be beheaded in the west by the court order. We must stop this nefarious influence of Islam on our culture and thinking.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: ourluxor, There are lots of clashes between muslims and christians.
I will say that Both are ignorant and do not understand their religion.
Our God is one. The message is one.
If My daughter is kidnapped by a christian gang and they told me to become christian and get my daughter back. I will tell them I am christian however I am a muslim.
True christian ( who does not believe in Jesus as a deity) is a muslim and believer and Once He discover the message of Muhammed He will get that It is the same like the message of Isa to worship God alone without partners.
Once upon a time, I am a true Christian and I see the message of Muhammed pbuh, His message is not the same. It is different. If you would understand Christianity then you would see the difference. Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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I have read quite a few Christian v Muslim threads on here....seems the Christians want the Muslims to get the divinity of Christ (which Ive always struggled with) and even tho Muslims want their religion to be seen as peaceful in its purest form the practice and quotes don't always appear that way. Maybe Muhammed was onto something with Christ being more prophet with an amazing message of sacrifice to expose the corruption of his time which the Muslims could dwell on more rather than the jihad bent?
Posts: 314 | From: australia | Registered: Jul 2010
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Personally, It's the message of Jesus that I would like to be understood, not the deity.
If everyone would follow the teachings of Jesus, including governments, the world would be a different place.
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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If you were to ask the average person what Jesus' preached - even the average Christian - you'd no doubt hear something about love: "Jesus taught about love. He said we should all love each other." This perception of Jesus' teaching isn't wrong, but, love was not the core of his proclamation. And, to be sure, his preaching about love didn't get Jesus crucified. Neither the Romans nor the Jewish authorities would have been particularly bothered by a Jewish prophet who ran around telling people to love God and people. Quite a few Jews would have been distressed over the thought of having to love their enemies, however. But the Romans - the obvious enemies -- wouldn't have crucified someone whose main crime was telling Jews to love them and turn the other cheek! The core of Jesus' message must have been more contentious, indeed, more scandalous, than a call to love.
Whatever Jesus preached, it got people excited. Even the demons were riled up. And Jesus' message angered most of the religious leaders he encountered. In the end, it got him killed on a Roman cross. So what exactly was this inspiring, challenging, goading, and apparently subversive message of Jesus all about?
What Jesus actually proclaimed, first and foremost, in the Gospel of Mark: "Now after John was arrested, Jesus came to Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news'" (Mark 1:14-15). Here, in a nutshell, is the message of Jesus: the kingdom of God.
if we want to understand the message of Jesus, not to mention his whole ministry, including his death and resurrection, then we must grapple with what he says about the kingdom of God. Gordon Fee, one of the wisest of New Testament scholars, once said in a lecture on Jesus: "You cannot know anything about Jesus, anything, if you miss the kingdom of God . . . . You are zero on Jesus if you don't understand this term, For this was, indeed, the core of his message.
So when Jesus proclaims that the kingdom of God has come near, he doesn't mean that a place is approaching like the giant comet in the movie Deep Impact, but that God's own royal authority and power have come on the scene. "God's reign is at hand. God's power is being unleashed," Jesus says. "Turn your life around and put your trust in this good news."
Of course Jesus' announcement of God's reign didn't come in a vacuum. It was both consistent with and a fulfillment of a central theme in the Hebrew prophets.
See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them as their God; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them; and he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away. (Revelation 21:3-4)
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"Luk 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
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