quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: We have no hand in creating ourselves. Allah choose man to have more muscles and choose women to have womb. What's wrong in that?
But what do muscles have to do with intelligence? Muhammad said that women are deficient in intelligence. Also the Quran says that men are superior to women, it does not say that men are superior in some things and women in others.
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: We have no hand in creating ourselves. Allah choose man to have more muscles and choose women to have womb. What's wrong in that?
But what do muscles have to do with intelligence? Muhammad said that women are deficient in intelligence. Also the Quran says that men are superior to women, it does not say that men are superior in some things and women in others.
It is not a general rule. check the context, the meaning and the situation of the say!
It is 'Prophet Muhammed Peace be upon him' not 'Muhammed'.
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quote:It is 'Prophet Muhammed Peace be upon him' not 'Muhammed'.
The use of this blessing/supplication after Muhammad's name infers an acknowledgment that Muhammad is indeed a true prophet. Christians do not believe this.
"Lo! Allah and His angels pray upon the prophet. Oh ye who believe, pray on him and salute him with peace."
Would it be proper for me as a Christian to ask you to begin referring to Jesus only as "The Lord Jesus Christ"? The use of the term Lord, among other things also infers that He is one and the same as the Almighty God of the Hebrew Old Testament. Knowing that this is a violation of your Islamic belief, it probably would be a waste of my time asking you to do this.
Also, since Christians believe that Jesus is God Incarnate, i.e. the Lord God who came to this earth by becoming man, it would be an insult to add "peace be upon him" after the name of Jesus who is the GIVER — not the recipient — of all peace. It would be just as inappropriate for a Christian to to ask for peace upon Jesus, as it would be for a Muslim to say or write "... Allah (pbuh)". Doing so, would be giving Jesus explicitly less honor than he deserves, i.e. it would be dishonoring him publically.
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posted
Apart from The texts in the bibles that you are misunderstanding, can you convince me that Prophet Jesus is a son of God or God incarnate or even a God?
Do not use copy and paste in your answer.
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How could Jesus be "a" God? There is only one God, and Jesus is His human form. I cannot, and would never even try, to convince you that Jesus is God in human form, this is a task which only God can accomplish. When He does, you will realise that you have thus far wasted your life in trying to keep the orders of Muhammad! As far as misunderstanding Biblical texts; these are not set in stone (please excuse the pun). The Bible does indeed contain all the truths which man needs for his life here and hereafter, but God (by His indwelling Holy Spirit) interprets to each one as he has need. It's NOT a book to be blindly obeyed, like the Quran!
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What do you mean by blindly obeying? Who do you know among muslims 'blindly obeys' Quran?
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Any Bible, they are just ink on paper! The important part is that which God illuminates for you. He is not confined to a set of written down words, the words are only any use if they lead us to a better understanding of, or a deeper relationship with the living God.
Your question "What do you mean by blindly obeying?" is a bit of a turn up for the books, if you don't mind me saying! How can someone who truly believes that the Arabic words in the Quran represent the unerring word of the Creator God NOT blindly obey them? I'm sorry if I seem to be answering your question with another, it's just that I thought that it would be patently obvious to any reader with the slightest inkling of religion in general. As for knowing Muslims who "blindly obey" the Quran, I would have thought that all Muslims would be doing their best to live their life according to the dictates of the Quran. Have I been misled by Ayisha, and the other "Quran Only" folk on here, not to mention almost every commentator whom I have ever read or heard speak on this subject. Does the Quran not have the "way" (to be taken by the faithful) written within it? I'm astounded!
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Once upon a time... Will you believe the Quran?
Sura 3:45 (Al-Imran) - "The angels said to Mariam (Mary): 'Allah bids you rejoice in a Word from Him. His name is al-Masih (Messiah), Isa the son of Mariam . He shall be noble in this world and in the next, and shall be favored by Allah.'"
quote: Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Sura 19:19 (Mariam) - "'I am the messenger of your Lord,' he replied, 'and have come to give you a holy son.'"
Sura 10:34 (Yunus) - "Say: Can any of your partners (associate-gods) produce a creation, then reproduce it? Allah produces a creation, then reproduces it."
Sura 3:49 (AI-Imran) - (Jesus is speaking) "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay, I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by Allah's leave, it shall become a living bird. By Allah's leave, I shall give sight to the blind man, heal the leper and raise the dead to life." It is only the Lord Jesus Christ who can do such things and by the Quran's own standard this identifies Jesus as the one with divine power and authority.
Jesus Christ is the only prophet in the Quran who does not confess his sins. There is a tradition in the Hadith (the record of the Prophet Mohammed's sayings and actions not recorded in the Quran) that says:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's messenger as saying, "There is none among the sons of Adam who is born but not touched by Satan at the time of his birth. So he cried loudly because of Satan's touch. But this is not the case with Mary and her son." (Agreed upon)
[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son ."
Sura 4:171 (Al-Nisa) - "Al-Masih (Messiah), Isa (Jesus) the son of Mariam, was no more than Allah's apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mariam, and a spirit proceeding from Him." Jesus is the Spirit of God (Ruhull-llah) and the Word of God. Moses is called God's spokesman in the Quran, and Abraham is called the friend of God while Muhammed is called the messenger of God - only Jesus Christ is called the Spirit and Word of God.
quote: Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus Christ is pronounced holy and sinless in Islam, but the Prophet Muhammed often confessed his sins - Suras 40:55; 47:19; 48:2.
Muhammed's own confession in Sum 46:9 (Al-Ahqaf) - "Say, I am no prodigy (marvel or special one) among the apostles; nor do I know what will he done with me or you. I follow only what is revealed to me, and my only duty is to give plain warning." Prophet Muhammed confessed his own inability to know the end of his work or to know the fate of his followers.
Sura 3:55 (Al-Imran) - "Allah said, Isa (Jesus), I am about to cause your term on earth to end and lift you up to Me. I shall take you away from those who disbelieve and exalt your followers above them till the Day of Resurrection."
God says that the followers of Jesus will be exalted until the Day of Resurrection! Has that day come yet? NO. Therefore according to the Quran, Jesus is worthy of being followed and his followers are honored by God just as Jesus is.
quote:Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Sura 3:55 says "I am about to cause your term on earth to end." The Arabic here says, "Inim wuta wafika" which literally means, "I will cause you to die." Also in Sura 19:33 (Mariam) Jesus is quoted as saying, "So peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life."
Praise be to the one God, the Quran even bears testimony to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ!
Sura 57:27 (Al-Hadid) - "We sent other apostles, and after those Isa the son of Mariam. We gave him the Gospel and put compassion and mercy in the hearts of his followers. "
Look at how the followers of Jesus are regarded by Allah. Compassion and mercy in our hearts as followers of Jesus Christ!
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Once upon a time... Will you believe the Quran?
Sura 3:45 (Al-Imran) - "The angels said to Mariam (Mary): 'Allah bids you rejoice in a Word from Him. His name is al-Masih (Messiah), Isa the son of Mariam . He shall be noble in this world and in the next, and shall be favored by Allah.'"
quote: Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Sura 19:19 (Mariam) - "'I am the messenger of your Lord,' he replied, 'and have come to give you a holy son.'"
Sura 10:34 (Yunus) - "Say: Can any of your partners (associate-gods) produce a creation, then reproduce it? Allah produces a creation, then reproduces it."
Sura 3:49 (AI-Imran) - (Jesus is speaking) "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay, I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by Allah's leave, it shall become a living bird. By Allah's leave, I shall give sight to the blind man, heal the leper and raise the dead to life." It is only the Lord Jesus Christ who can do such things and by the Quran's own standard this identifies Jesus as the one with divine power and authority.
The Holy son is Mary's SON. It is not saying son of GOD
Jesus could only do the things by Allahs leave, NOT on his own
I will leave out the next part as it's nothing to do with Quran and quotes a known liar, so is irrelevant
quote:[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son ."
Sura 4:171 (Al-Nisa) - "Al-Masih (Messiah), Isa (Jesus) the son of Mariam, was no more than Allah's apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mariam, and a spirit proceeding from Him."
Again, son of Mary, not son of God. Granting MARY a holy son and a blessing from God to Mary. He was NO MORE THAN an apostle, a blessing from God.
quote:Jesus is the Spirit of God (Ruhull-llah) and the Word of God. Moses is called God's spokesman in the Quran, and Abraham is called the friend of God while Muhammed is called the messenger of God - only Jesus Christ is called the Spirit and Word of God.
Can you give references please.
quote: Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Because in the beginning there was ONLY God, He is the first and the last.
quote:Jesus Christ is pronounced holy and sinless in Islam, but the Prophet Muhammed often confessed his sins - Suras 40:55; 47:19; 48:2.
seeing as the last time the people took to worshipping the messenger, this time it was clear he was a MAN and not a GOD to be worshipped.
quote:Muhammed's own confession in Sum 46:9 (Al-Ahqaf) - "Say, I am no prodigy (marvel or special one) among the apostles; nor do I know what will he done with me or you. I follow only what is revealed to me, and my only duty is to give plain warning." Prophet Muhammed confessed his own inability to know the end of his work or to know the fate of his followers.
Of course he did, because no one knows the future but GOD Himself!
quote:Sura 3:55 (Al-Imran) - "Allah said, Isa (Jesus), I am about to cause your term on earth to end and lift you up to Me. I shall take you away from those who disbelieve and exalt your followers above them till the Day of Resurrection."
Yes of course, but bear in mind that those who disbelieved were not those who disbelieved he was God/son of God, which he wasn't until long after his ascention.
quote:God says that the followers of Jesus will be exalted until the Day of Resurrection! Has that day come yet? NO. Therefore according to the Quran, Jesus is worthy of being followed and his followers are honored by God just as Jesus is.
Yes, and muslims do follow him, but the way it was before his ascention and the way we are told to in the rest of the verses from the book you seem to now believe enough to think you are proving that he was the son of God. That book warns that what you have now as 'Christianity' is false.
quote:Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Sura 3:55 says "I am about to cause your term on earth to end." The Arabic here says, "Inim wuta wafika" which literally means, "I will cause you to die." Also in Sura 19:33 (Mariam) Jesus is quoted as saying, "So peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life."
Praise be to the one God, the Quran even bears testimony to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ!
Yayy she believes, Doro accepts Quran to be TRUTH at last!
quote:Sura 57:27 (Al-Hadid) - "We sent other apostles, and after those Isa the son of Mariam. We gave him the Gospel and put compassion and mercy in the hearts of his followers. "
Look at how the followers of Jesus are regarded by Allah. Compassion and mercy in our hearts as followers of Jesus Christ!
Yes! but those that accept him as SON OF MARIAM are his followers, the MUSLIMS!!
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posted
We learned lots of wrong stuff when we were children. When children go to the church, they teach them that Jesus peace be upon him is a god or a son of God. when they grow up they find themselves surrounded by such thoughts. It is not easy to correct these misconceptions.
The same goes to some Sufi mosques, some people teach illogical stuff about God. They teach them about good spirits coming around the tombs and lots of nonsense.
Our God is unique one God with no sons or partners. This is what you feel even before reading Any TEXT from Any book. When you read the Quran, you find the same thoughts that you acquire by nature. Islam is the religion of nature.
Let's free up our mind from brain washing and start correct our way of thinking about God.
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: The same goes to some Sufi mosques, some people teach illogical stuff about God. They teach them about good spirits coming around the tombs and lots of nonsense.
Don't believe in Jinn then?
There is a lot of ENERGY in Egypt and that can be felt by a lot of people and certainly in or around the temples, your ancestors were more educated in the NATURE arts than you are today so they knew where to build those temples. It is fact that the earth has energy spots.
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posted
Once upon a time, you have still not answered my questions, let me post them again:
It's not a discrimination to say that women are incapable of performing the above listed tasks and leading people?
It's not a discrimination to say that "masculinity is more perfect" and that women are "lacking in reason and religious commitment"?
What, according to you, is it then?
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: complete the Hadith you have just mentioned to understand the meaning of the hadith in complete.
Why should I? It is not me who took part of the hadith out of context, it is the author of the book that YOU recommended. The same author who says that women are less capable than men and that masculinity is supposedly more perfect than femininity. He took only that part of the hadith because it supported exactly what he wants to make us believe – that women are somehow inferior than men, that they are lacking in reason and religious commitment and that this is the reason there have been no female messengers.
The author of this book clearly has an agenda and a very misogynist attitude. Why are you trying to make us believe that this is not the case?
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: The same goes to some Sufi mosques, some people teach illogical stuff about God. They teach them about good spirits coming around the tombs and lots of nonsense.
And in Bukhari etc. we find many hadith speaking about jinns in the bathroom and other such stuff. I don't see much of a difference there.
I find your Sufi-bashing sad and irritating. It is not up to you to decide who is a Muslim or not.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The Holy son is Mary's SON. It is not saying son of GOD
Jesus could only do the things by Allahs leave, NOT on his own
Ayisha, When I look at the following verse I understand that it says that no one can partner with God, that only God produces a creation, then reproduces it.... What do you understand it to say?
quote: "Can any of your partners (associate-gods) produce a creation, then reproduce it? Allah produces a creation, then reproduces it."
Then in this verse Jesus CLEARLY says that I(Jesus) will make the likeness of a bird and breathe life into it and that I(Jesus) will give sight to the blind man, and I(Jesus) will heal the leper and raise the dead to life... As you pointed out it also says "By Allah's leave" (what the heck does that mean any way? When Allah leaves Jesus will do these things?)
quote:Sura 3:49 (AI-Imran) - (Jesus is speaking) "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay, I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breathe into it and, by Allah's leave, it shall become a living bird. By Allah's leave, I shall give sight to the blind man, heal the leper and raise the dead to life."
Anyway you look at it either God took Jesus as a partner or Jesus is God.
Please show me where Muhammad(pbuh) or any other man created a bird, healed the sick or raised the dead.
quote:[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
Jesus Christ is pronounced holy and sinless in Islam, but the Prophet Muhammed often confessed his sins - Suras 40:55; 47:19; 48:2.
Quote from Ayisha: "seeing as the last time the people took to worshipping the messenger, this time it was clear he was a MAN and not a GOD to be worshipped."
OK, You are telling me that the man who said the following is a liar? Do all Muslims believe that this is a lie? Do you believe that there are other men who never sinned? If so show where you get this information because the Bible says that "ALL men have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
Am I also to understand that Muhammad(pbuh) sinned so no one would worship him? Was this successful?
quote: Abu Huraira reported Allah's messenger as saying, "There is none among the sons of Adam who is born but not touched by Satan at the time of his birth. So he cried loudly because of Satan's touch. But this is not the case with Mary and her son." (Agreed upon)
I will take a portion at a time to review because I don't have time to do it all at once and it is easier to read a little at a time.
@Once upon a time: "Let's free up our mind from brain washing and start correct our way of thinking about God." Yes, Yes! I agree with you.... When will you start to free your mind... Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Jesus is the Spirit of God (Ruhull-llah) and the Word of God. Moses is called God's spokesman in the Quran, and Abraham is called the friend of God while Muhammed is called the messenger of God - only Jesus Christ is called the Spirit and Word of God.
Can you give references please.
Here Moses is chosen to take Gods message and words to the people: 7.143 He said: “O Moses! I have chosen you over people for My messages and words, so take what I have given you and be among the thankful”
Here Abraham is called Allah's friend: 004.125 Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.
Here it it implyed that that Muhammad(pbuh) is God's messenger even if there are those who disbelieve: 13:43 They who disbelieve say: Thou art no messenger (of Allah). Say: Allah, and whosoever hath knowledge of the Scripture, is sufficient witness between me and you.
...and here Jesus is called "God's word which is bestowed on Mariam and a spirit proceeding from God:
Sura 4:171 (Al-Nisa) - "Al-Masih (Messiah), Isa(Jesus) the son of Mariam, was no more than Allah's apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mariam, and a spirit proceeding from Him."
Now the following is what the Bible says about God's word:
quote:Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him , and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jhn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
quote:Jesus could only do the things by Allahs leave, NOT on his own
Jesus could only do the things by "Allahs" leave because he is in perfect union with him. In his mortal body, he voluntarily gave up his functional prerogatives as God.
Yet because Jesus is God in essence he is capable of doing everything that "Allah" himself does, such as give life to whomever desires.
"So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For WHATEVER the Father does, THAT THE SON DOES LIKEWISE. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, SO ALSO THE SON GIVES LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL.’" John 5:19-21
"Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; whoever comes TO ME shall not hunger, and whoever believes in ME shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I WILL NEVER CAST OUT. FOR I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, THAT I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING OF ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME, but RAISE IT UP on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, AND *I* WILL RAISE HIM UP on the last day.’" John 6:35-40
"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the graves will hear HIS VOICE and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." John 5:28-29
In these passages Jesus reiterates the point that he is able to do whatever the Father can do. Jesus expressly states that he has the power to resurrect the dead both spiritually and physically. The dead, according to Jesus, will hear his voice and come out of their graves, something which the Holy Scriptures say God alone can and does perform.
Christ also asserts that he is self-existent, that he has life within himself, which implies that he needs nothing outside of his own Being to sustain him. Again, Jesus claims something that no creature, no finite mortal can ever say.
"The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, JUST AS they honor the Father." John 5:22-23
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]Muhammed's own confession in Sum 46:9 (Al-Ahqaf) - "Say, I am no prodigy (marvel or special one) among the apostles; nor do I know what will he done with me or you. I follow only what is revealed to me, and my only duty is to give plain warning."
ME: Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) confessed that he does NOT know what will happen with him or us.
AYISHA: Of course he did, because no one knows the future but GOD Himself!
Yet, Here Jesus is revealing that he does know that he will die and be raised up to life again:
19:33 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
AYISHA: "Of course he did, because no one knows the future but GOD Himself!" Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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"A UN spokesman confirmed that workers had been killed at the mission, but he said the situation on the ground was still confusing and it was difficult to 'ascertain facts'."
I hold the pastor responsible as well as the others for these murders, he knew exactly what he was doing.
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Muslims have the free will to restrain themselves when offended, if they so choose. Had they done that, Jones and Sapp would already be a forgotten sideshow.
The willingness to riot and to murder was already in place here; two Florida pastors did not create that.
And the utter and obvious lack of connection between the UN office and one Florida congregation ultimately shows the Quran desecration was a pretext, as it so often is, even in fabricated local cases that lead to rampaging mobs' abusing non-Muslims.
That too, will likely get lost in the discussion, which has tended to take the automatic, violent reaction of Muslims for granted, thereby tacitly excusing them from responsibility after being "provoked."
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posted
@ Once upon a time, According to the Quran you should read the Bible.
Here is says that you stand for nothing until you observe the Bible.
quote:Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book, you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."
Here it says for you to have faith in the Bible and if you deny the scriptures then you have strayed far from the truth :
quote:Sura 4:136 (Al-Nisa) - "0 believers, have faith in Allah and His Apostle, in the Book He has revealed to His Apostle, and in the Book He formerly revealed (Bible). He that denies Allah, His angels, His Scriptures, His apostles, and the Last Day, has strayed far from the truth."
This tells Muhammad(pbuh) if he has doubt to ask those who read the Bible.
quote: 10:94-95 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.
The following verse says that Christians rule in accordance with God's revelations in the Gospel and those who do not rule in accordance with God's revelations are the wicked.
quote: [5:47] The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.
This says that the Quran stands gardian over the Bible.
quote:Sura 5:48 (Al-Maida) - "And to you We have revealed the Book with the truth confirming what was revealed before it in the other Books, and standing as a guardian over it."
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Writes Hugh Fitzgerald:
Muslims have the free will to restrain themselves when offended, if they so choose. Had they done that, Jones and Sapp would already be a forgotten sideshow.
A PASTOR, a religious LEADER should have shown a bit more restraint before INCITING HATRED don't you think?
quote:The willingness to riot and to murder was already in place here; two Florida pastors did not create that.
They incited it by showing their hate and contempt for another religions holy book.
quote:And the utter and obvious lack of connection between the UN office and one Florida congregation ultimately shows the Quran desecration was a pretext, as it so often is, even in fabricated local cases that lead to rampaging mobs' abusing non-Muslims.
That too, will likely get lost in the discussion, which has tended to take the automatic, violent reaction of Muslims for granted, thereby tacitly excusing them from responsibility after being "provoked."
The utter and obvious lack of connection between the inside job of 911 while accusing al qaeda the US went after saddam hussein. Suppose thats different though as they're all muslims anyway. Is that turn around from the Bible, should we blame and try that book next?
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Is a crazy man in one country who burns the Quran responsible for crazy men in another country cutting off peoples heads???
Is a woman responsible for being raped?
Is a wife responsible for the infidelity of her husband?
Seems to me that we cannot control the actions of others, if we could I would have certainly not allowed the Quran burning and head cutting to be posted in this thread where I was enjoying a perfectly good discussion with myself... Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Apart from The texts in the bibles that you are misunderstanding, can you convince me that Prophet Jesus is a son of God or God incarnate or even a God?
Do not use copy and paste in your answer.
I answered your request. Where are you ??? Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: A PASTOR, a religious LEADER should have shown a bit more restraint before INCITING HATRED don't you think?
It is one thing to incite hatred against an ideology and quite another to incite hatred against people
The fact that religious leaders across the Muslim world incite violence against PEOPLE doesn't concern you? The pastor said he burned the Quran because of 9/11. BUT, he did not attack or harm any Muslim. With this act he probably wanted to show how intolerant Muslims are.
Iranian security forces burned hundreds of Bibles a few months ago. It is worth recalling in light of this event. But Christians aren't going crazy over this and start killing innocent people. http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2010/s10060047.htm
And note this Pastor did not seize the Quran he burned from Muslims, as these books in Iran were seized from their rightful owners.
posted
^ Then they have strayed far from the truth.
Sura 4:136 (Al-Nisa) - "0 believers, have faith in Allah and His Apostle, in the Book He has revealed to His Apostle, and in the Book He formerly revealed (Bible). He that denies Allah, His angels, His Scriptures, His apostles, and the Last Day, has strayed far from the truth."
...and they stand for nothing.
Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book, you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Apart from The texts in the bibles that you are misunderstanding, can you convince me that Prophet Jesus is a son of God or God incarnate or even a God?
Do not use copy and paste in your answer.
I answered your request. Where are you ???
Did you misunderstand my question? or Was I unclear? I asked to prove jesus to be a god without using bible or quran texts as you and other christians do not understand them correctly. Did You do so?
I can prove to you that God has no father or mother or children without using Quran or any texts.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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U.S. pastor defiant:'Hold Islam accountable'
Florida pastor Terry Jones has not apologised for a Koran burning stunt last month that led to the murders of up to 20 people in northern Afghanistan yesterday.
Mr Jones, who ignored international warnings that his actions would undoubtedly lead to violent reprisals, said the blame laid at the feet of the attackers.
He said: ''We demand action from the United Nations. Muslim dominated countries can no longer be allowed to spread their hate against Christians and minorities.'
Among those murdered were Norwegian, Romanian, Swedish and Nepalese nationals.
Mr Jones, a former furniture salesman, was quick to respond to accusations that blood was on his hands over the killings.
he said: 'They must alter the laws that govern their countries to allow for individual freedoms and rights, such as the right to worship, free speech, and to move freely without fear of being attacked or killed.'
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Apart from The texts in the bibles that you are misunderstanding, can you convince me that Prophet Jesus is a son of God or God incarnate or even a God?
Do not use copy and paste in your answer.
I answered your request. Where are you ???
Did you misunderstand my question? or Was I unclear? I asked to prove jesus to be a god without using bible or quran texts as you and other christians do not understand them correctly. Did You do so?
I can prove to you that God has no father or mother or children without using Quran or any texts.
Actually you asked for someone to prove Jesus to be God without using the Bible... You said nothing about the Quran so I expected you to believe what the Quran has to say.
Have you ever read the Bible? Your opinion is of no relevance in this discussion. Please back up what you say with scripture or verses from the Quran or Hadith. Thank you.
I would like to have an honest, open discussion. If your intention is to strut around stroking your ego by boasting what you can do, without ever doing it, then I don't have much use for your view. I wrote several post with verses from the Quran that received NO comments except from vw. If you feel I don't understand, explain yourself because at the moment I'm not impressed by either your boasting or derogatory comment.
Now if you would like to have an intelligent discussion with references to back up your views, then I'm all ears.
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ok Doro. Sorry If you see me this way. There is no where in Quran saying that Prophet Jesus is a god or a son of God or even a god's incarnate.
The arguments may be around the word "spirit" that I have explained the meaning of it here and discussed it with you ( may be? ) in this Religion discussion section.
Which bible do you want me to read? and why? there are lots of versions. I have read bits but not all. Have you read the entire Quran?
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Have you read The book I have posted on the beginning of this thread, Doro? An honest answer is appreciated. I am still reading that book.
Ayisha, Sorry to say. Jinn has no connection with the tombs that some sufi worship. I do not say that sufis are non muslims but I say they need to correct their path to pure monotheism.
Dalia, Sorry I did not forgot about you. I am thinking of a way to explain the points you have misunderstand. Have you finished reading that book ?
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vwwwv, do you have another username here? I think you have once called me that I am living in denial? Where are you from? are you from germany? and what is your bad experience with muslims and Islam? Do tell us.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Dalia, Sorry I did not forgot about you. I am thinking of a way to explain the points you have misunderstand.
I have not misunderstood anything. It is very clear to me what the author of the book is saying.
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The Bible does not teach that God has a father or a mother. God is spirit that became flesh is what the Bible teaches.
Jesus is God, and He has always been God. There was a never a time when He became God, for God is eternal. But Jesus has not always been man.
By saying that God became man we certainly do not mean that He turned into a man, in the sense that He stopped being God and started being man. Jesus did not give up any of His divinity in the Incarnation, as is evident from many verses. Rather, as one early theologian put it, "Remaining what He was, He became what He was not."
Christ "was not now God minus some elements of His deity, but God plus all that He had made His own by taking manhood to Himself."
It is also essential to know that Christ does not have a sinful nature, and neither did He ever commit sin - even though He was tempted in all ways (Hebrews 4:15). Thus, Jesus is fully and perfectly man, and has also experienced the full range of human experience. We have a Savior who can truly identify with us because He is man, and who can also truly help us in temptation because He has never sinned. This is an awesome truth to cherish, and sets Christianity apart from all other religions.
Jesus has always been God and will be God forever. But Jesus will also be man forever. Why did Jesus become man, and why will He be man forever? The book of Hebrews says that it was so that Christ could be an adequate Savior who has all that we need.
"He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people" (2:17).
First, notice that Jesus became man so that He could die for our sins. He had to be human in order to pay the penalty for humans. Second, this verse says that because Jesus is human like us, He is able to be a merciful and faithful high priest. His humanity enables Him to more fully sympathize with us and identify with us. He can sympathize and be a faithful high priest and know what we are going through not just because He was once on earth as a man, but because He continues forever as that same man.
Both natures of Jesus, are represented in Scripture as constituting "one thing," that is, as united in one Person.
We read in John 1:14, "And the word became flesh and dwelt among us." Here we see the two natures: the Word (His deity) and flesh (humanity). Yet we also see that there is one Person, for we read that the Word became flesh. "Became" requires that we acknowledge a unity of the two natures such that they are one thing--that is, one Person.It does not mean "turned into" flesh, for that is against the Scriptural teaching on the distinctness of the natures.
By virtue of the union of the natures in one Person, the things that are true of and done by only one of Christ's natures, are nonetheless true of and done by the Person of Christ. In other words, things which only one nature does can be considered to have been done by Christ Himself. Likewise, things that are true of one nature but not the other are true of the Person of Christ as a whole. What this means, in simple terms, is that if there is something that only one of Christ's natures did, He can still say, "I did it."
We have many instances in Scripture which demonstrate this. For example, Jesus says in John 8:58, "...before Abraham was born, I am." Now, Christ's human nature did not exist before Abraham. It is Christ's divine nature that eternally exists before Abraham. But since Christ is one Person, He could say that before Abraham was, He is
Another example is Christ's death. God cannot die. We never speak of Christ's death as the death of God. But humans can die, and Jesus' human nature did die. Thus, even though Jesus' divine nature did not die, we can still say that the Person of Christ experienced death because of the union of the two natures in the one Person of Christ. By virtue of union with Jesus' human nature, his divine nature somehow tasted something of what it was like to go through death. The person of Christ experienced death,
The union of Christ's deity and humanity in one Person makes it such that we have all that we need in the same Savior. Because Jesus is God, He is all-powerful and He cannot be defeated. Because He is God, He is the only adequate Savior. Because He is God, believers are safe and can never perish; we have security. Because He is God, we can have confidence that He will empower us for the task that He commands us for. And because He is God, all people will be accountable to Him when He returns to judge the world.
Because Jesus is man, He has experienced the same things that we do. Because He is man, He can identify with us more intimately. Because He is man, He can come to our aid as our sympathetic High Priest when we reach the limits of our human weaknesses. Because He is man, we can relate to Him--He is not far off and uninvolved. Because He is man, we cannot complain that God does not know what we are going through. He experienced it first-hand.
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Ok Dalia. you do not agree that Women have less muscles than men. The author of the book must have made a mistake about that.
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vwwwv, are you saying God is Jesus ? or jesus is God's incarnate? Have you seen jesus telling you about that?
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quote:vwwwv, are you saying God is Jesus ? or jesus is God's incarnate? Have you seen jesus telling you about that?
Below are some of his statements made while on earth:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.
"The Father and I are one." Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?" They replied, "We're stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God."
After washing their feet, he put on his robe again and sat down and asked, "Do you understand what I was doing? You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and you are right, because that's what I am. And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other's feet."
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. From now on, you do know him and have seen him!" Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"
Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask." Jesus told her, "Your brother will rise again." "Yes," Martha said, "he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day." Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."
Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” “Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”
This Messiah would be born a human son, but have a higher nature Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
This was a radical statement coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet -- especially calling a human being “Mighty God”; but one that God fulfilled centuries later in Christ.
A couple hundred years later, but still more than half a millennium before Jesus walked the earth, more was predicted about the Messiah’s divine nature Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
“Son of Man” was the primary title Jesus used for Himself -- and this passage shows that this was a clear and strong claim of deity. And in Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, He also included the unmistakable phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself (Mark 14:62). His listeners got the point, refused to believe it, and added it to their reasons to try to kill Him.
The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”
Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.
Jesus accepted worship from His disciples Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”
In a Jewish culture, only the one true God can be worshiped; their actions show that they acknowledged Jesus as being divine. And Jesus didn’t correct them or say, “Don’t you realize that I’m just a mortal prophet? Stop worshiping me!” Rather, He accepted their worship, knowing He really was God in human flesh.
Thomas’ response to the resurrected Jesus John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"
This disciple realized, because of Jesus’ resurrection, who Jesus really was -- and humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship.
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Ok Dalia. you do not agree that Women have less muscles than men. The author of the book must have made a mistake about that.
The hadith does not say that women are inferior in muscles only, it specifically states that women are inferior in intelligence too.
The Quran says: “men have a degree (of advantage) over them” 2:228 ; that the witness of woman is worth half of that of man 2:282; that women inherit half of their male siblings, 4:11-12; that a man can marry two or three or four women 4:3; that if a women becomes captive in a war, her Muslim master is allowed to have intercourse with her 33:50; that if a woman is not submissive to her husband she will enter Hell 66:10; that women are “tilth” for their husbands (to cultivate them) 2:223; that men are in charge of women, (as if women were minors who could not take care of themselves) that they must be obedient to their husbands or be admonished (verbally abused), banished from the bed (psychologically abused) and beaten (physically) 4:34.
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posted
Vwwvv,please stop taking Quranic verses out of context. It would be as if I kept posting that Jesus advocated stoning by saying 'cast the first stone'. If you must quote, give the background and rationale.
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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Ok Dalia. you do not agree that Women have less muscles than men. The author of the book must have made a mistake about that.
Why are you trying to divert from the subject, and why do you insist on talking about muscles? I didn't say anything in regards to women and muscles, nor is there any mentioning of muscles in the excerpt I quoted. Of course men have more muscles than women, but I also wrote in an earlier response to you that this is entirely irrelevant in regards to the points I raised. Please re-read my posts and try to understand what I was saying.
quote:
1) The role of Messenger requires a great many tasks to be performed: addressing men and women, meeting people in secret and openly, moving throughout the land, confronting liars and establishing proof against them and debating with them, preparing and leading armies, and going through the sufferings of war. All of that is suitable for men but not for women.
2) The role of Messenger demands that the Messengers should be in charge of those who follow him, so he issues commands and prohibitions to his followers, and he rules and judges among them. If a woman were instructed with such tasks, she would not be able to do them properly, and there would be people who would refuse to follow and obey her.
3) Masculinity is more perfect, as we have explained above. Hence Allah has given the role of responsibility to men over women. … And the messenger said that women are lacking in reason and religious commitment.
quote:It's not a discrimination to say that women are incapable of performing the above listed tasks and leading people?
It's not a discrimination to say that "masculinity is more perfect" and that women are "lacking in reason and religious commitment"?
quote:Originally posted by Stephie_ELH: Vwwvv,please stop taking Quranic verses out of context. It would be as if I kept posting that Jesus advocated stoning by saying 'cast the first stone'. If you must quote, give the background and rationale.
Instead of mindlessly repeating the out of context mantra, feel free to put the verses that I posted in their right context. You will see that the meaning of the verses does not change.
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Quran 4.34 : Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Quran 4.11 : Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.
Quran 2.228 : Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Quran 2.282 : O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other
Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. 4:3
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posted
4.34; the correct translation is not scourge ; there is a lot of controversy regarding the translation anyway. The most logical is actually 'to separate', because, after talking and no interaction, it is the next logical step. Esp. if you look at other verses about mercy and consultation between spouses. 4.11; If you look at the responsibilities of males vs. females, that is actually fair. Women keep all of their share: whereas men have to provide for his mom, sisters, wife, kids and the vulnerable in his family. Also, that is in the absence of a will. 2.282 women are more vulnerable than men. Women have rights as men do but men do not have to deal with consequences as women do. (i.e a pregnant woman is more vulnerable than an expectant father) 4.3 if you read the whole verse, it makes it clear that it is nearly impossible to deal with them equitably so the restrictions are pretty danged hard to meet, to the point of prohibition
Trying to find fault with a faith, while doing half-assed 'research' on Islamophobe websites is just insulting to those of us who actually looked into it properly.
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34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). 35 If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things. 36 Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;-
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