quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: David said, “Surely I have been a sinner from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Ps. 51:5)
not literally.
quote:Jesus had a sinful physical nature but His human birth was like our new birth—born of the Spirit.
His human birth was the same as our human birth, born of a woman in the same way we all are.
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posted
Jesus had a sinful physical nature yet he was sinless. Jesus’ sinlessness points to the absence of sin in his life. It describes a lack of something, namely, sin. Jesus was without sin, but not without temptation. It is precisely because Jesus was sinless that he experienced the full weight of temptation.
Jesus assumed our fallen humanity. Though he never sinned personally… he experienced, of necessity, many of the effects of sin which permeate the world and plague human beings. He completely identified with our fallen humanity, and through his life, death, and resurrection, lifted humanity into the very life and love of God.
A mediator stands in the gap between two parties. In order to do this well, the mediator must fairly represent both parties.
The central affirmation of the Christian faith is that God has entered into our fallen world – in-the-flesh – in the person of Christ Jesus. Through the incarnation, God fully identifies with our fallen human situation – our human limitations, human weaknesses, human temptations, human emotions, and human suffering.
In Christ, the union between God and humanity is complete, irreversible, and transformative. This union does not destroy or abolish our humanity, but rather, heals, redeems, and transforms it.
God’s union with humanity in Jesus is permanent. The resurrected and ascended Jesus remains fully human, albeit a glorified human. What, then, is the current ministry of the glorified man, Christ Jesus? The biblical authors refer to Jesus’ present ministry as “intercession” or “mediation” on our behalf (see Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25).
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, Jesus did die.
He was the only one who over came death.
but he is not walking around now and there is apparently no body and he was 'ascended' to God the same as Enoch was.
But he did Ayisha.
Who did what? Jesus ascended to God. According to you he died on the cross and was risen, after that he was ascended to God. Enoch didn't suffer any death, he ascended.
quote: Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book, you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."
Sura 4:136 (Al-Nisa) - "0 believers, have faith in Allah and His Apostle, in the Book He has revealed to His Apostle, and in the Book He formerly revealed (Bible). He that denies Allah, His angels, His Scriptures, His apostles, and the Last Day, has strayed far from the truth."
quote:As a Muslim, you are told to have faith in the Bible. The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. How do you reconcile this?
Quran says he is not the son of God and corrects those misconceptions.
Doro, you are trying to use a book you don't believe in to prove Jesus is the son of God when in that very book it tells you Jesus was a messenger from God, not His son and also tells you where people went wrong in following and worshipping the messenger as a god.
The Quran goes extreemly out of its way to say that Jesus is not more than a messenger to the point where it appears that someone just put that in as an after thought. The very discription of Jesus in the Quran shows that there was no one who was like Jesus.
In the Quran, only Jesus: -Was born of a virgin -Was without sin -Was called the word of God -Was conceived by the spirit of God -Healed the sick -Gave sight to the blind -Raised the dead -Created life from dirt -Testified of himself -In one place he did not see death -In another he died and rose again -He is alive and in heaven with God -He alone is called "Messiah" (The Quran does not define the title of "Messiah" but when you look in Jewish text we find that Messiah and Son of God were synonymous)
From the Quran alone we see that Jesus was clearly unlike any other man who has ever lived.
The Quran also says for Muhammad(pbuh) to consult Christians for the truth. As a Muslim you are suppose to adhere to the beliefs in the Bible. I simply show verses from the Quran that you choose to ignore. You believe that God made a mistake before and corrected it in the Quran. I believe that God does not make mistakes.
The Quran also says that if you deny the Bible then you have gone far from the truth.
Why do you think that the Quran is in such conflict about these things?
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: "If you want a religion that makes sense, choose a religion other than Christianity.... but if you want life... this is the one!"
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, Jesus did die.
He was the only one who over came death.
but he is not walking around now and there is apparently no body and he was 'ascended' to God the same as Enoch was.
But he did Ayisha.
Who did what? Jesus ascended to God. According to you he died on the cross and was risen, after that he was ascended to God. Enoch didn't suffer any death, he ascended.
quote: Sura 5:68 (Al-Maida) - "Say: 'People of the Book, you stand for nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord."
Sura 4:136 (Al-Nisa) - "0 believers, have faith in Allah and His Apostle, in the Book He has revealed to His Apostle, and in the Book He formerly revealed (Bible). He that denies Allah, His angels, His Scriptures, His apostles, and the Last Day, has strayed far from the truth."
quote:As a Muslim, you are told to have faith in the Bible. The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. How do you reconcile this?
Quran says he is not the son of God and corrects those misconceptions.
Doro, you are trying to use a book you don't believe in to prove Jesus is the son of God when in that very book it tells you Jesus was a messenger from God, not His son and also tells you where people went wrong in following and worshipping the messenger as a god.
The Quran goes extreemly out of its way to say that Jesus is not more than a messenger to the point where it appears that someone just put that in as an after thought. The very discription of Jesus in the Quran shows that there was no one who was like Jesus.
In the Quran, only Jesus: -Was born of a virgin -Was without sin -Was called the word of God -Was conceived by the spirit of God -Healed the sick -Gave sight to the blind -Raised the dead -Created life from dirt -Testified of himself -In one place he did not see death -In another he died and rose again -He is alive and in heaven with God -He alone is called "Messiah" (The Quran does not define the title of "Messiah" but when you look in Jewish text we find that Messiah and Son of God were synonymous)
From the Quran alone we see that Jesus was clearly unlike any other man who has ever lived.
The Quran also says for Muhammad(pbuh) to consult Christians for the truth. As a Muslim you are suppose to adhere to the beliefs in the Bible. I simply show verses from the Quran that you choose to ignore. You believe that God made a mistake before and corrected it in the Quran. I believe that God does not make mistakes.
The Quran also says that if you deny the Bible then you have gone far from the truth.
Why do you think that the Quran is in such conflict about these things?
"born without sin" can be taken 2 ways, considering he was born of a virgin then there was no 'sin' of the sexual act to make him.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: The Quran also says for Muhammad(pbuh) to consult Christians for the truth.
reference please
quote:As a Muslim you are suppose to adhere to the beliefs in the Bible.
As a muslim I am to accept the previous revelations from God which is the Torah of Moses and the 'Gospel GIVEN to Jesus'.
quote: I simply show verses from the Quran that you choose to ignore.
I ignore NO verse from Quran, I may choose to refute and refuse YOUR translation o misinterpretation of them.
quote:You believe that God made a mistake before and corrected it in the Quran. I believe that God does not make mistakes.
Excuse me? I do NOT believe that God EVER made any mistakes! I do believe that PEOPLE make mistakes and God sent a later message to correct those PEOPLE in their following His message and to warn what those mistakes were, like worshipping a man or thinking that God had a son! God NEVER makes mistakes, people make mistakes and try to correct GOD!
quote:The Quran also says that if you deny the Bible then you have gone far from the truth.
I do not deny the Torah given to Moses or the Gospel given to Jesus. Show me the Gospel of Jesus, not the gospel 'according to' Mark, Matthew, Luke and John or the 'new religion of man worship' according to Paul.
quote:Why do you think that the Quran is in such conflict about these things?
Quran is not in conflict, people are.
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Ayisha, People who are born into the traditions of their family and culture have a difficult time to think outside of what was taught since childhood. This is not the case with you. You seek the truth. I am asking you to take a reasonable look at what the book that you believe in is actually saying, and not what traditions dictate.
I have done this and I know that you understand that I had motivation to do this with an open mind. The difference between you and I is that I already knew the Bible.
Now the Quran is said to be the very word of God yet it was delivered by an angel. So in other words God sent his word through one messenger(Gabriel) to another messenger who then told it to others who then wrote it down.
The Bible on the other hand was written by holy men of God as they were moved by the holy ghost. In other words God himself wrote the Bible through these men. The Bible tells of God's word....Jesus.
Another thing written in the Quran is that the Quran is to stand guardian over the Bible. If the Bible has been corrupted as Muslims claim then the Quran did not do its job of guarding the Bible.
quote: Sura 5:48 (Al-Maida) - "And to you We have revealed the Book with the truth confirming what was revealed before it in the other Books, and standing as a guardian over it."
You nor anyone else has addressed the verses that I have posted from the Quran in previous post. From my most recent post you made one comment which was not what the post said anyway. (sorry, I was writing this when you posted the post above so I hadn't read it when this posted)
Why are these verses that I have posted ignored?
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: The Quran also says for Muhammad(pbuh) to consult Christians for the truth.
reference please
10:94-95 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.
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quote:As a Muslim you are suppose to adhere to the beliefs in the Bible.
As a muslim I am to accept the previous revelations from God which is the Torah of Moses and the 'Gospel GIVEN to Jesus'.
The gospel is not given to Jesus... The gospel tells of Jesus. The Torah prophesies of Jesus.
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posted
Many verses in the Qur'an make clear that the Gospel is given to Jesus - but Jesus was born over a thousand years [about 1400] after Moses. For Allah to speak to Moses and say that the people can find the unlettered prophet mentioned in the Gospel is a strong anachronism since the Gospel is not available to Moses and will not be available for another 1400 years.
The obvious problem is that since the Gospel has not yet been revealed at Moses' time, nobody was able to find anything in this nonexisting gospel. Muhammad was indeed unlettered, i.e. not well educated in the earlier scriptures, and this is a quite obvious blunder which is hard to reconcile with divine authorship, let alone with the direct speech of God in response to Moses.
A second problem surfaces when we focus on the phrase "the unlettered prophet". Nowhere in the Torah or the Gospel is there any mentioning of an unlettered prophet.
There are prophecies about future prophets, particularly about "the prophet like Moses", but the Qur'an gives one and only one distinctive characteristic by which we may recognize which prophecy is meant and this characteristic is that the prophet is refered to as unlettered. But that is a false statement since nowhere in the Torah or the Gospel is a (future or any) prophet called "unlettered".
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: The gospel is not given to Jesus... The gospel tells of Jesus. The Torah prophesies of Jesus.
It is generally recognized that "Injil" is a Greek word, or more precisely, that it is derived from the Greek word for gospel, euangelion.
The Arabic edition of Wikipedia states:
الإنجيل كلمة معربة من اليونانية ايوانجيليون التي تعني البشارة السارة Al-Injeel is an Arabized word (derived) from the Greek Evangelion which means "the good news". (Source; accessed 28 August 2008; translation ours)
When speaking in one's own language about a book that is written in a different language, one either quotes the title in the original language (perhaps in some kind of transliteration), as the Qur'an did in case of the Torah, or translates the title into a term or phrase in one's own language, as the Qur'an did in case of the Psalms (Zabur). Injil is not an Arabic word but this name is easily recognized as being derived from the Greek word for Gospel, i.e. the author of the Qur'an did not translate the name of the book of 'Isa (Jesus), but spoke about it by using a transliteration of the original title.
Note: According to S. 5:46, the Injil was a book given to 'Isa by Allah. That means, it is not the New Testament or the Gospels contained in the NT, because those books were not given to Jesus during his life on earth, but they were written by his disciples (under divine inspiration) after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. That alone is a serious error in the Islamic understanding of what the Gospel is, but this error is not the topic of this article.[1] For this article, we are talking about the book that is allegedly given by Allah to Jesus (whether directly or through the angel Gabriel) and which bears the name Injil.
The fact that the Injil is a message/book with a Greek title implies that the book is in Greek. But here is the conflict with the other claims of the Qur'an. Greek was not the language of the people of Jesus (although it was probably understood by many of them). The common language of the Jews of Jesus' time was Aramaic. Since the time when Alexander the Great established his vast empire, Greek became the "world language" of that time (like English today) and was thus also understood by many of the Jews. However, it was not the native language of the Jews. Rather, it was the language of people who had invaded and occupied their land.
quote:The Quran also says that if you deny the Bible then you have gone far from the truth.
I do not deny the Torah given to Moses or the Gospel given to Jesus. Show me the Gospel of Jesus, not the gospel 'according to' Mark, Matthew, Luke and John or the 'new religion of man worship' according to Paul.
A sample of Jesus's words are in bold.
quote: Jhn 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
quote: Jhn 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
Jhn 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
Jhn 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jhn 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Jhn 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Jhn 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Jhn 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Jhn 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Jhn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Jhn 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].
quote:Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jhn 5:31 ¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Jhn 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Jhn 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Jhn 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
Jhn 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Jhn 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
Jhn 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Jhn 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
quote:Excuse me? I do NOT believe that God EVER made any mistakes! I do believe that PEOPLE make mistakes and God sent a later message to correct those PEOPLE
Jesus states that God has given his personal seal of approval, backing up all of Christ's words and deeds:
"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed HIS SEAL OF APPROVAL." John 6:27
"Jesus answered: ‘Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.’" John 14:9-11
Part of Jesus' claims, which God has given his approval to, includes Christ's statement that he is the final messenger. This essentially means that the Lord Jesus is God's final and only perfect commentary in relation to the things pertaining to God:
"He then began to speak to them in parables: ‘A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed. HE HAD ONE LEFT TO SEND, A SON, WHOM HE LOVED. He sent him LAST OF ALL, saying, "They will respect my son." But the tenants said to one another, "THIS IS THE HEIR. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours." So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.’" Mark 12:1-8
After sending his servants the prophets, God sent his beloved Son last of all. This indicates that Christ believed that he was not just the last spokesperson sent by God to the people, but that he was also God's beloved Son and the Heir of all things.
"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: 'Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.'" Revelation 1:17-18
The Lord Jesus claims to be the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, as well as the First and the Last. This implies that Jesus is both the source of all creation and the consummation of all things. Christ sovereignly controls and guides all creation to accomplish all he intends and desires.
In light of its Old Testament background, the title "the First and the Last" indicates that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only true God:
"This is what the LORD says - Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6
"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last." Isaiah 48:12
Muhammad denied that Jesus is the source and consummation of all things and that Christ, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, is the only true God. This means that Muhammad was not God's seal nor was he a true prophet sent by the true God.
Both the Old and New Testament emphatically state that with Christ's advent both prophecy and vision have been consummated:
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, BUT IN THESE LAST DAYS HE HAS SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:1-3
After having spoken to the people through the prophets, God has given his final revelation through his incarnation.
According to Jesus, the function of the Holy Spirit is to testify about Christ. Any prophet that does not testify about the person and work of the Lord Jesus is a false prophet. In fact, the entire focus of prophecy centers on the person of Christ:
"He commands us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as the judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:42-43
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: "born without sin" can be taken 2 ways, considering he was born of a virgin then there was no 'sin' of the sexual act to make him.
Since you reject the doctrine of inherited sin and believe all men are born without sin, why do Muslim's teach the doctrine of the Immaculate conception of Mary?
Also, Muslims believe that the whole concept of blood atonement is an invention of the Christian church. What were the Jews doing since 1500 BC on the "day of atonement"?
Muslims reject the gospel story of Jesus being a substitute for our sins, the just for the unjust. They use the illustration of a man having to pay for a speeding ticket he did not commit.
How do you explain that in the Muslim view of the cross, someone completely innocent died in Jesus place, after God made him appear to be Jesus? Was not this a Substitutionary sacrifice?
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As a muslim I am to accept the previous revelations from God which is the Torah of Moses and the 'Gospel GIVEN to Jesus'.
Jesus's words are in bold:
quote:Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Jhn 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning.
Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jhn 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Jhn 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
quote:Jhn 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me;
of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Jesus NEVER SINNED.
I never said he did but if being born is sin according to your belief then he DID and that is what baptism is all about and he was baptized.
quote:btw, The sexual act is not sinful in marriage.
I know, but Mary wasn't married to God, she was married to Joseph who was not the father of her child.
quote:Ayisha, People who are born into the traditions of their family and culture have a difficult time to think outside of what was taught since childhood. This is not the case with you. You seek the truth. I am asking you to take a reasonable look at what the book that you believe in is actually saying, and not what traditions dictate.
I do look at what the book is saying and not what any tradition dictates and I never have.
quote:I have done this and I know that you understand that I had motivation to do this with an open mind. The difference between you and I is that I already knew the Bible.
I knew the bible too and I can look at that without what traditions dictate too, you are unable to look at either because of the holds you mentioned above.
quote:Now the Quran is said to be the very word of God yet it was delivered by an angel. So in other words God sent his word through one messenger(Gabriel) to another messenger who then told it to others who then wrote it down.
The Bible on the other hand was written by holy men of God as they were moved by the holy ghost. In other words God himself wrote the Bible through these men. The Bible tells of God's word....Jesus.
This is not the words of God, it is according to you inspired writings, not the actual words of God FROM GOD. God did not speak to these men through any medium or messenger.
quote:
quote:Another thing written in the Quran is that the Quran is to stand guardian over the Bible. If the Bible has been corrupted as Muslims claim then the Quran did not do its job of guarding the Bible.
quote: Sura 5:48 (Al-Maida) - "And to you We have revealed the Book with the truth confirming what was revealed before it in the other Books, and standing as a guardian over it."
You nor anyone else has addressed the verses that I have posted from the Quran in previous post. From my most recent post you made one comment which was not what the post said anyway. (sorry, I was writing this when you posted the post above so I hadn't read it when this posted)
That verse does not say that Quran is a guardian over the Bible. I have not addressed everything as I am working while going through this and my time is a bit limited right now.
quote:Why are these verses that I have posted ignored?
Which verses? I have not kept up with this whole thread as I haven't had time, if you want to post verses that I have not 'answered' then I will try to get to them.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: The Quran also says for Muhammad(pbuh) to consult Christians for the truth.
reference please
10:94-95 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.
That is not saying question Christians for the truth.
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posted
Exd 3:13 ¶ And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you .
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quote:As a Muslim you are suppose to adhere to the beliefs in the Bible.
As a muslim I am to accept the previous revelations from God which is the Torah of Moses and the 'Gospel GIVEN to Jesus'.
The gospel is not given to Jesus... The gospel tells of Jesus. The Torah prophesies of Jesus.
Then what you have is not what was given to Jesus by God
5.46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
3.3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)
57.27 Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel;
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: The Quran also says for Muhammad(pbuh) to consult Christians for the truth.
reference please
10:94-95 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.
That is not saying question Christians for the truth.
It is telling Muhammad(pbuh) to question those who read the scripture(Christians) about what is revealed to him.... right?
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: The Quran also says for Muhammad(pbuh) to consult Christians for the truth.
reference please
10:94-95 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.
That is not saying question Christians for the truth.
It is telling Muhammad(pbuh) to question those who read the scripture(Christians) about what is revealed to him.... right?
It is telling him to ask those who read THE BOOK before him. The word in there is THE BOOK and THE BOOK started to be revealed in the Torah and the Gospel. It is saying this so he can verify that this message he is getting is for real, not so that he can check the DETAILS with them but the overall message from GOD, the revelation and the rules and regs, so this would be more fitting to the Torah than the gospel according to whoever. We are talking actual revelation, not the 'he said this according to.....' that was left after Constantine did his clear out and Paul did his thing.
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quote:I have done this and I know that you understand that I had motivation to do this with an open mind. The difference between you and I is that I already knew the Bible.
I knew the bible too and I can look at that without what traditions dictate too, you are unable to look at either because of the holds you mentioned above.
What do you mean by "I already knew the Bible too"? Please explain how you knew the Bible.
Ayisha, My dad is an atheist and my mother was Catholic. We went to an Episcopal church when I was very young... prior to school age. I did not grow up in a religious family. When I was in my teens I studied the Bible intensively(daily) for years. I also have studied other religions in college. I came to know Jesus through much research on my part, not through my up bringing. I am also willing to change according to what I find to be truth. My study of Islam has strengthed my faith in Jesus.
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quote:I have done this and I know that you understand that I had motivation to do this with an open mind. The difference between you and I is that I already knew the Bible.
I knew the bible too and I can look at that without what traditions dictate too, you are unable to look at either because of the holds you mentioned above.
What do you mean by "I already knew the Bible too"? Please explain how you knew the Bible.
Through the bible stories taught at school and through reading and long discussions with my mum who knew it inside out. Do you think I've never seen a bible before or don't own one? At one point I owned 3. My best friend in UK was a 'born again Christian' as were all her family, with them I have been to the Billy Graham televised speeches, her and 3 of her grown children are now all Muslim.
quote:Ayisha, My dad is an atheist and my mother was Catholic. We went to an Episcopal church when I was very young... prior to school age. I did not grow up in a religious family. When I was in my teens I studied the Bible intensively(daily) for years.
at bible study classes where you are taught this is what it means even though it doesn't say that?
quote: I also have studied other religions in college. I came to know Jesus through much research on my part, not through my up bringing. I am also willing to change according to what I find to be truth. My study of Islam has strengthed my faith in Jesus.
Great, my study of Quran and again the OT has strengthened my faith in GOD.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: "If you want a religion that makes sense, choose a religion other than Christianity.... but if you want life... this is the one!"
If you wrote this statement from the beginning I would've understood and not wasted my time.
No worries, I didn't expect an open mind from you.
Open mind! Good one. You're talking to me about having a mind be it open or not after stating that your religion does not make sense? Well at least I have a mind.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]Ayisha, My dad is an atheist and my mother was Catholic. We went to an Episcopal church when I was very young... prior to school age. I did not grow up in a religious family. When I was in my teens I studied the Bible intensively(daily) for years.
at bible study classes where you are taught this is what it means even though it doesn't say that?
^^^ what are you talking about?
Ayisha, owning a Bible and having Christians friends does not make you Christian anymore than owing a Quran and having Muslim friends makes you Muslim. I have posted many verses from the Quran that you have given no other explanation for than the one I give. The Quran and the Torah tell different versions of the same story. How do these conflicting stories point you to God?
@ this... Was God beginning to make sense to you until I said that my religion does not make sense?
I was actually quoting Rich Mullins in the video and it was directed to Ayisha because she is always saying that it is not logical that God would come in the likeness of sinful flesh.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, owning a Bible and having Christians friends does not make you Christian anymore than owing a Quran and having Muslim friends makes you Muslim.
I never said it did You asked how I knew the Bible, I explained through readings and discussions - from a very early age actually. I was seeing flaws in Christianity and finding unanswered questions at around age 9 or 10. Does 'knowing the Bible' mean it makes me Christian?
quote: I have posted many verses from the Quran that you have given no other explanation for than the one I give. The Quran and the Torah tell different versions of the same story. How do these conflicting stories point you to God?
Post any verses again or point me to them and I will try to answer, though I am a bit all on at the moment.
Conflicting stories? You were on this very thread trying to use Quran to 'verify' the man/god thing in the Bible, now it's conflicting? Quran is 'correcting' the alterations made by man in the Bible and is giving a true account of the prophets and what their job was. I don't necessarily mean 'written' alterations but more 'how it's been interpreted' to 'suit' certain people and how that has been passed down to today. You agree yourself that the Bible is written (authored) by 'inspired' men, the Quran is the words of God, God is the 'author' of Quran.
Quran and Islam answered many of my unanswered questions and allowed me to see the true concept of GOD and His creation and my part in it, nothing to do with any 'bible stories'
quote:@ this... Was God beginning to make sense to you until I said that my religion does not make sense?
I was actually quoting Rich Mullins in the video and it was directed to Ayisha because she is always saying that it is not logical that God would come in the likeness of sinful flesh.
I said it is not logical that the Almighty God would have a son who He allowed to die for the sins of the world so that the world can carry on sinning all it likes and still feel assured of a place in paradise because they believe God died for them!
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Another thing that I notice in the following verses is that Allah is speaking yet he says "We". Who do you feel that the "We" Allah is referring to is?
quote: 7 ( Allah said ) "O Zakariyya (Zachariah)! Verily, We give you the glad tidings of a son, whose name will be Yahya (John). We have given that name to none before (him)."
Well, I was going to use the story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac in the Bible verses Abraham sacrificing Ishmael in the Quran, but when I looked I was suprised to find that the Quran doesn't actually say that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed. So we can agree that Isaac was the son of Abraham that was to be sacrificed.
Here in the Old Testament it testifies of Jesus and says that he is an offering for sin. Does the Quran agree with this?
quote: Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 ¶ He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin , he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]Originally posted by D_Oro: Quran is 'correcting' the alterations made by man in the Bible and is giving a true account of the prophets and what their job was. I don't necessarily mean 'written' alterations but more 'how it's been interpreted' to 'suit' certain people and how that has been passed down to today. You agree yourself that the Bible is written (authored) by 'inspired' men, the Quran is the words of God, God is the 'author' of Quran.
I did not agree that the Bible is written by inspired men. I said that God wrote the Bible though Holy men.
Let me break it down again.
Quran: Allah tells the angel Gabriel(Jibril) his word then sends him as a messenger to Muhammad(pbuh) to deliver his word, who then recited this word to his followers, who then wrote it down. Kinda like if we have a very important message so we tell it to a friend we trust, who then tells it to another friend, who then tells it to other friends who then writes it down.
Bible: The Bible was written by holy men of God as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. In other words God wrote his message down through these men, he did not tell the message to these men. The holy men were God's tool, much like we would pick up a pencil to write down our thoughts. The pencil would be the tool we use to record our message.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: We can start with this.
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Another thing that I notice in the following verses is that Allah is speaking yet he says "We". Who do you feel that the "We" Allah is referring to is?
quote: 7 ( Allah said ) "O Zakariyya (Zachariah)! Verily, We give you the glad tidings of a son, whose name will be Yahya (John). We have given that name to none before (him)."
I will have to divide this as I'm too tired to figure the various quote marks!
We could be like the 'Royal' We of majesty, it could be 'We' as in God and the messenger Angels that delivered the messages. I don't feel it is relevant to 'The Message' of God so I don't pick the smaller details.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Well, I was going to use the story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac in the Bible verses Abraham sacrificing Ishmael in the Quran, but when I looked I was suprised to find that the Quran doesn't actually say that it was Ishmael that was sacrificed. So we can agree that Isaac was the son of Abraham that was to be sacrificed.
No, Genesis says 'only' son, which at that time was Ishmael and shows it was before Isaac was born. genesis also confirms Hager was Abraham's 'wife', which we have discussed before, and that Ishmael was his son.
quote:Here in the Old Testament it testifies of Jesus and says that he is an offering for sin. Does the Quran agree with this?
quote: Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 ¶ He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin , he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
I don't see the name Jesus in there, could be talking about anyone, is Jesus' grave with the wicked? No Quran will not agree with this, our sins are our own and no man can bear the burden of another's sin. 17.15 Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning). Torah also agrees with this and God's word does not change.
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posted
The Bible show very clearly that the mother of Ismael, Hagar (Hajira in Islam), was never the wife of Abraham, but only his slave woman.
It was only because Sarah herself could not bear children that she "took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife" (Genesis 16.3).
The expression clearly means that she gave Hagar to her husband to cohabit with him and not as a second wife as Muslims often claim the verse implies, but rather in all that is said before and after this text, Hagar is regarded as nothing more than the mistress of Sarah. "Go into my maid", Sarah urged (Genesis 16.2). When Hagar conceived and looked in contempt upon Sarah, Abraham responded, "Behold, your maid is in your power; do to her as you please" (Genesis 16.6). When Hagar was in the wilderness and an angel appeared to her, he called her "Hager, maid of Sarai" (Genesis 16.7) and told her "Return to your mistress and submit to her" (Genesis 16.9).
A Muslim tradition confirms that Hagar was only a servant in Abraham's household whom Sarah gave to him solely to bear him a son:
"Then he called Hajar who was the most trustworthy of his servants and he bestowed her (Hajar) on her (Sarah) and gave her clothes; subsequently Sarah made a gift of her (Hajar) to Ibrahim who cohabited with her and she bore Ismail who was the eldest of his children. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 1, p. 41)".
Quite clearly Hagar never was regarded as the wife of Abraham but only as the maid of his wife Sarah. Thus it was quite proper for God to speak of Isaac as Abraham's only son, namely his only legitimate son of his wife Sarah, more particularly as Ismael had many years parted from him (Genesis 21.14) with his mother Hagar.
The Jewish Scriptures make it quite plain that it was Isaac. God said to Abraham:
"Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you. Genesis 22.2
In the same way the Christian Scriptures also positively identify the son whom Abraham was commanded to sacrifice as Isaac. The following two passages prove the point:
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named". Hebrews 11.17-18.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? James 2.21
In all these passages it is quite plainly stated that Abraham offered up Isaac on the altar, yet in the only passage in the Quran where the sacrifice is covered, there is no mention of the identity of the son. Thus there is a double testimony in the Bible, both from the Jewish and Christian Scriptures that the son to be sacrificed was Isaac, whereas there is no such testimony in the Qur'an that it was Ishmael.
Although for purposes of expediency today the Muslim world unanimously acknowledges Ishmael as the sacrificial son, there was much dispute in the early days of Islam on the subject with many renowned commentators accepting that it was Isaac. A Muslim writer candidly admits:
"The Quran did not mention the name of the sacrificial son, and hence Muslim historians disagree in this regard." (Haykal, The Life of Muhammad, p. 25).
No such disagreement has ever existed in Judaism and Christianity. It is universally believed without dissent that it was Isaac. It is only in Islamic history that one finds confusion regarding the identity of the son who was commanded to be sacrificed. The omission of the name of the son in the Qur'an is a strange anomaly if it was supposed to be Ishmael.
When the promise of Isaac came to Abraham and Sarah, Ishmael had already been born, and the mention of Sarah at this point as Abraham's only wife is a clear testimony that Hagar was not one of his wives. The only such woman mentioned is described as the single wife of Abraham and she is expressly described as the mother of Isaac.
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: The Bible show very clearly that the mother of Ismael, Hagar (Hajira in Islam), was never the wife of Abraham, but only his slave woman.
It was only because Sarah herself could not bear children that she "took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife" (Genesis 16.3).
The expression clearly means that she gave Hagar to her husband to cohabit with him and not as a second wife as Muslims often claim the verse implies, but rather in all that is said before and after this text, Hagar is regarded as nothing more than the mistress of Sarah. "Go into my maid", Sarah urged (Genesis 16.2). When Hagar conceived and looked in contempt upon Sarah, Abraham responded, "Behold, your maid is in your power; do to her as you please" (Genesis 16.6). When Hagar was in the wilderness and an angel appeared to her, he called her "Hager, maid of Sarai" (Genesis 16.7) and told her "Return to your mistress and submit to her" (Genesis 16.9).
Gen 16.3 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.NIV
Gen 16.3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.KJV
Gen.17.16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Gen 17.16 is recognizing Ishmael as the son of Abraham as God is saying he will ALSO have one from Sarah.
Hagar is clearly the wife of Abraham and Ishmael is clearly the first born son of Abraham and until Isaac was born Ishmael was clearly the ONLY son of Abraham. This does not mean that Hagar stops being the hand maiden of Sarah but being the hand maiden of Sarah also does not mean she was not the wife of Abraham.
The original Hebrew also says WIFE so you can bring any of the 25 English 'versions' of these translations to say whatever you like but Hagar was Abraham's wife like it or not.
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]Ayisha, My dad is an atheist and my mother was Catholic. We went to an Episcopal church when I was very young... prior to school age. I did not grow up in a religious family. When I was in my teens I studied the Bible intensively(daily) for years.
at bible study classes where you are taught this is what it means even though it doesn't say that?
^^^ what are you talking about?
Ayisha, owning a Bible and having Christians friends does not make you Christian anymore than owing a Quran and having Muslim friends makes you Muslim. I have posted many verses from the Quran that you have given no other explanation for than the one I give. The Quran and the Torah tell different versions of the same story. How do these conflicting stories point you to God?
@ this... Was God beginning to make sense to you until I said that my religion does not make sense?
I was actually quoting Rich Mullins in the video and it was directed to Ayisha because she is always saying that it is not logical that God would come in the likeness of sinful flesh.
Let's state the facts here and not run around in circles. Do you believe Christianity as a religion makes sense or not? If yes, continue on believing and if no then how do you describe a person who believes in something that does not make sense?
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quote:I have done this and I know that you understand that I had motivation to do this with an open mind. The difference between you and I is that I already knew the Bible.
I knew the bible too and I can look at that without what traditions dictate too, you are unable to look at either because of the holds you mentioned above.
What do you mean by "I already knew the Bible too"? Please explain how you knew the Bible.
Ayisha, My dad is an atheist and my mother was Catholic. We went to an Episcopal church when I was very young... prior to school age. I did not grow up in a religious family. When I was in my teens I studied the Bible intensively(daily) for years. I also have studied other religions in college. I came to know Jesus through much research on my part, not through my up bringing. I am also willing to change according to what I find to be truth. My study of Islam has strengthed my faith in Jesus.
How has studying Islam strengthened your faith in Jesus Doro??? Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Even though the bible does mention that Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham for "wife", it is clear that she is regarded NOT as a wife but as a slave. Sarah gave Abraham her servant to sleep with to produce a son since she could not. That Sarah followed the custom of the people of the day did not make it legal in God's eyes. This is clear from two things:
(a) God does not refer to Hagar as Abraham's "wife". Of course, we read in Gen. 17:15 that God addressed Sarah directly as Abraham's "wife", later in the same chapter (verse 12) God Himself called Hagar Abraham's "bondwoman". The point is that if Sarah's action was legally binding in God's eyes, He would most definitely had called Hagar the "wife" of Abraham, rather than a "bondwoman". Guess what he called Ishmael in the same relationship? "And also the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."
(b) Again, Hagar did not protest this fact when she was asked about her plight in the wilderness, for she did not brag about being a wife of Abraham, but in humility confessed that Sarah was her "mistress" (not "mate") - Gen. 16:8; "Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hand" (verse 19).
So, when you read and make inferences, it helps to clearly see the big picture - for it is not what men make of an issue that matters, but rather what and how God sees a matter.
Compare and contrast the LANGUAGE the bible uses to describe Hagar:
Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac
Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called
Now, the sending away from home attests to the fact that God did not recognise Sarah's action of marrying Hagar to Abraham as legal. How do you send your own "wife" away - if she was really, legally your "wife"?
When God mentions Abraham's ONLY son, He is refering to the the Child of the Covenant/Child of promise, the one Abraham waited 25 yrs for. God's promise of a son to Abraham was to be through Sarah:
Gen 17: 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
God clearly acknowleges the fact that Ishmeal is Abraham's son too but He clearly delineates Isaac as the only son of Abraham that He recognized, the one through whom He would establish His Covenant with man.
When God talks about "thine only son Isaac" in Gen 22, He uses that phrase to emphatically state without the question of a doubt that He is refering to Isaac and Him only.
Notice that four years after Ishmael was born, God appeared to Abraham and asked him to "walk before Me and be thou perfect" (Gen. 16:16-17:1).
The promise to Isaac through Abraham has come to all the world through Jesus Christ - for it was He actually that was the real Seed prophecied about from Gen. 3:15 - "the Seed of the woman". Remember Gal. 3:16 that clearly identifies Christ as the Seed. God's purpose (even before Ishmael was born) was that Isaac was to be the seed to whom the covenant appertained (Gen. 17:19).
Of Ishmael we read: "And he will be a wild man; and his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren" (Gen. 16:12).
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quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Even though the bible does mention that Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham for "wife", it is clear that she is regarded NOT as a wife but as a slave. Sarah gave Abraham her servant to sleep with to produce a son since she could not. That Sarah followed the custom of the people of the day did not make it legal in God's eyes. This is clear from two things:
Hagar was given as a wife, she was the maid of Sarah but she was the wife of Abraham and bore his first child that was fully and totally accepted by God as his 'seed'.
quote:(a) God does not refer to Hagar as Abraham's "wife". Of course, we read in Gen. 17:15 that God addressed Sarah directly as Abraham's "wife", later in the same chapter (verse 12) God Himself called Hagar Abraham's "bondwoman". The point is that if Sarah's action was legally binding in God's eyes, He would most definitely had called Hagar the "wife" of Abraham, rather than a "bondwoman". Guess what he called Ishmael in the same relationship? "And also the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed."
THY SEED. And verse 12 does not come LATER than verse 15.
quote:(b) Again, Hagar did not protest this fact when she was asked about her plight in the wilderness, for she did not brag about being a wife of Abraham, but in humility confessed that Sarah was her "mistress" (not "mate") - Gen. 16:8; "Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hand" (verse 19).
God came to HER to help HER and the SEED of Abraham, she wouldn't brag about anything, do you think God didn't KNOW who she was?? This woman didn't try lying to God like sarah did, God knew perfectly well who she was and that she was the mother of Abrahams first born SON.
ps. 'mate' to Hagar would be Abraham, not Sarah
quote:So, when you read and make inferences, it helps to clearly see the big picture - for it is not what men make of an issue that matters, but rather what and how God sees a matter.
You are making inferences not me. Hagar was the mother of Abrahams first son and at the point of sacrifice was his ONLY son, the reward for which was a son with Sarah.
quote:Compare and contrast the LANGUAGE the bible uses to describe Hagar:
Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac
Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called
So now God gave Torah in English did He? Try the Hebrew, it's MAID and she was the MAID of Sarah and the WIFE of Abraham. It was Sarah's jealousy that forced her to tell Abraham to cast the woman out, not GOD telling him to do this. Try the Hebrew, it might help instead of twisting up words to suit you.
quote:Now, the sending away from home attests to the fact that God did not recognise Sarah's action of marrying Hagar to Abraham as legal. How do you send your own "wife" away - if she was really, legally your "wife"?
God didn't send her away, God sent her BACK.
quote:When God mentions Abraham's ONLY son, He is refering to the the Child of the Covenant/Child of promise, the one Abraham waited 25 yrs for. God's promise of a son to Abraham was to be through Sarah:
Gen 17: 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
God clearly acknowleges the fact that Ishmeal is Abraham's son too but He clearly delineates Isaac as the only son of Abraham that He recognized, the one through whom He would establish His Covenant with man.
BULL, do you think God is stupid?? How can you say that He CLEARLY recognizes Ishmael as the SON of Abraham and at the same time claim that God called Isaac his ONLY son? God knows full well what ONLY means, it means there is no other. The time when Abraham had an ONLY son was BEFORE Isaac was born.
quote:When God talks about "thine only son Isaac" in Gen 22, He uses that phrase to emphatically state without the question of a doubt that He is refering to Isaac and Him only.
Clearly recognizes Ishmael as his son but calls the 2nd son his ONLY son? That's not even a convincing twist on words, very disappointing.
I wont waste any more time with the rest, clear for anyone with half a brain to see.
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If Hagar hadn't been 'sent away' there wouldn't have been a Zamzam that came out of nowhere in the middle of the Arabian desert, nor would the Kaaba have ever been created to exist till eternity for the people belonging to the 'nation' (obviously Muslims) to visit in their annual pilgrimage.
Allah had a reason for this 'sending away' thing, as He knows better, its all in the books..those of Abraham and Moses. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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It is amazing how overzealous some Muslims have been in their attempts to prove that Ishmael, not Isaac, was that son considering the Quran never mentions the name of the sacrificial child.
Muslim scholar, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf of the Zaytuna Institute, candidly admits that:
... This was the child that Abraham was given, and there is a difference of opinion about who that child was. The majority of the later scholars say it was Ismail, many of the early scholars said it was Ishaq. It should not be a point of contention for the believers, it's not the point of the story. Both are valid opinions. (Shaykh Yusuf, There is No Calamity if there is Certainty;)
Al-Tabari, considered to be one of the premiere Islamic historians, lists the divergent views held amongst the Muslim umma (community) in regards to this very issue:
"The earliest sages of our Prophet's nation disagree about which of Abraham's two sons it was that he was commanded to sacrifice. Some say it was Isaac, while others say it was Ishmael. Both views are supported by statements related on the authority of the Messenger of God. If both groups of statements were equally sound, then - since they both came from the Prophet - only the Quran could serve as proof that the account naming Isaac is clearly the more truthful of the two." (2: p. 82).
All the following quotations are found in al-Tabari (2: pp. 82-86)
The account naming Isaac comes down to us through Abu Kurayb - Zayd b. al-Hubab - al-Hasan b. Dinar - 'Ali b. Zayd b. Jud'an - al-Hasan - al-Ahnaf b. Qays - al-'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib - THE PROPHET in a conversation in which he said, "Then we ransomed him with a tremendous victim." And he also said, "HE IS ISAAC."
According to Abu Kurayb - Ibn Yaman-Mubarak - al-Hasan-al-Ahnaf b. Qays-al - 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib: The quote, "Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim," refers to Isaac.
According to al-Husayn b. Yazid al-Tahhan - Ibn Idris - Dawud b. Abi Hind - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The one whom Abraham was ordered to sacrifice was Isaac.
According to Ya'qub - Ibn 'Ulayyah - Dawud - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The victim was Isaac.
According to Ibn al-Muthanna - Muhammad b. Ja'far - Shu'bah - Abu Ishaq - Abu al-Ahwas: A certain man boasted to Ibn Mas'ud, "I am so-and-so son of so-and-so, son of the noble elders." And 'Abdallah said,"This is Joseph b. Jacob, son of Isaac the victim of God, son of Abraham the Friend of God."
According Ibn Humayd - Ibrahi, b. al-Mukhtar - Muhammad b. Ishaq - 'Abd al-Rahman b. Abi Bakr - al-Zyhri - al-'Ala' b. Jariyah al-Thaqafi - Abu Hurayrah - Ka'b: When God said, "Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim," He was speaking of Abraham's son Isaac.
According to Ibn Humayd - Salamah - Muhammad b. Ishaq - 'Abdallah b. Abi Bakr - Muhammad b. Muslim al-Zuri - Abu Sufyan b. al-'Ala' b. Jariyah al-Thaqafi, the confederate of Banu Zuhrah - Abu Hurayrah - Ka'b al-Ahbar: The son whom Abraham was commanded to sacrifice was Isaac.
According to Yunus - Ibn Wahb - Yunus - Ibn Shihab - 'Amr b. Abi Sufyan b. Usayd b. Jariyah al-Thaqafi: Ka'b said to Abu Hurayrah, "Should I tell you about Isaac, the son of the prophet Abraham? Abu Hurayrah said, "Certainly." So Ka'b gave the following account:
"When Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac, Satan said ‘By God! If I cannot deceive the people of Abraham with this, I shall never be able to do it.’ So when Abraham went out with Isaac to sacrifice him, Satan visited Abraham's wife, Sarah, in the shape of a man whom Abraham's people knew, and asked her, ‘Where is Abraham going so early with Isaac?’ She said, ‘He went off early on some errand.’ Satan said, ‘No, by God! That is not the reason he left so early.’ Sarah asked, ‘Then what is the reason?’ He said, ‘He took him out early to sacrifice him.’ Sarah said, ‘There is no truth to that, he would not ... sacrifice his own son.’ Satan said, ‘By God it is true.’ Sarah said, ‘And why would he sacrifice him?’ He replied, ‘He claims that his Lord ordered him to do it.’ Sarah said, ‘If his Lord ordered him to do that, it is best that he obey.’ Then Satan left Sarah and went to Isaac, who was walking with his father, and said, ‘Where is your father taking you so early?’ Isaac answered, ‘He is taking me on some errand of his.’ Satan said, ‘No, by God, he is not taking you out on an errand. He is taking you out early to sacrifice you.’ Isaac said, ‘My father would not sacrifice me.’ Satan told him, ‘Certainly he would.’ Isaac asked, ‘Why?’ Satan told him, ‘He claims that his Lord ordered him to do it.’ Isaac answered, ‘By God! If the Lord told my father to do that, he should certainly obey him.’ So Satan left him and went on to Abraham, saying, ‘Why are you taking your son out early?’ Abraham said, ‘I am taking him on an errand.’ Satan answered, ‘By God, you took him out early only to sacrifice him.’ Abraham asked, ‘Why would I do that?’ Satan said, ‘You claim that your Lord ordered you to do it.’ Abraham said, ‘By God, if my Lord orders me to do that, I will surely do it.’ When Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him, God stayed his hand and ransomed him with a ‘tremendous victim.’ Abraham said to Isaac, ‘Arise, my little son, for God has released you.’ And God said to Isaac, ‘I will grant you any prayer you choose to make now.’ Isaac said, ‘My God! I pray to you that I be granted this, that you grant entry into Paradise to any worshipper, past or present, who encounters you and does not make anything a partner with you’."
According to 'Amr b. Ali - Abu 'Asim - Sufyan - Zayd b. Aslam - 'Abdallah b. 'Ubayd b. 'Umayr - his father: Moses said, "O Lord! Why are you addressed as ‘O God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?’" God answered, "Abraham never considered anything at all equal to Me, but put Me above all things; Isaac was generous to Me in the matter of the sacrifice and in other matters; and as for Jacob, the more tribulations I inflicted upon him the more good thoughts he thought about me."
According to Ibn Bashshar - Mu'ammal - Sufyan - Zayd b. Aslam - 'Abdallah b. 'Ubayd b. 'Umayr - his father: Moses asked God, "O Lord! Why did you give Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob what you gave them?" And God's answer was the same (as that given above).
According to Abu Kurayb - Ibn Yaman - Isra'il - Jabir - Ibn Sabit: He was Isaac.
According to Kurayb - Ibn Yaman - Sufyan - Abu Sinan al-Shaybani - Ibn Abi al-Hudhayl: The victim was Isaac.
According to Abu Kurayb - Sufyan b. 'Uqbah - Hmaza al-Zayyat - Abu Ishaq - Abu Maysarah: Joseph told the king to his face, "You wish to eat with me when I, by God, am Joseph son of Jacob the prophet of God, son of Isaac the victim of God, son of Abraham the friend of God."
According to Abu Kurayb - Waki' - Sufyan - Abu Sinan - Ibn Abi al-Hudhayl: Joseph said to the king... The same (rest of the) account is roughly the same.
According to Musa b. Harun - 'Amr b. Hammad - Asbat - al-Suddi - Abu Malik and Abu Salih - Ibn 'Abbas and Murrah al-Hamdani - Ibn Mas'ud and some of the companions of the Prophet: Abraham was instructed in a dream to "carry out your promise that if God granted you a son by Sarah you would sacrifice him."
According to Ya'qub - Husahym - Zakariya' and Shu'bah - Abu Ishaq - Masruq: When God said, "The We ransomed him with a tremendous victim," that was Isaac.
Finally, Tabari himself:
"As for the above-mentioned proof from the Quran that it really was Isaac, it is God's word which informs us about the prayer of His friend Abraham when he left his people to migrate to Syria with Sarah. Abraham prayed, ‘I am going to my Lord who will guide me. My Lord! Grant me a righteous child.’ This was before he knew Hagar, who was to be the mother of Ishmael. After mentioning this prayer, God goes on to describe the prayer and mentions that he foretold to Abraham that he would have a gentle son. God also mentions Abraham's vision of himself sacrificing that son when he was old enough to walk with him. The Book does not mention any tidings of a male child given to Abraham except in the instance where it refers to Isaac, in which God said, ‘And his wife, standing by laughed when we gave her tidings of Isaac, and after Isaac, Jacob’, and ‘Then he became fearful of them’. They said. ‘Fear not!’ and gave him tidings of a wise son. Then his wife approached, moaning, and smote her face, and cried, ‘A barren old woman’. Thus, wherever the Quran mentions God giving tidings of the birth of a son to Abraham, it refers to Sarah (and thus to Isaac) and the same must be true of God's words ‘So we gave him tidings of a gentle son’, as it is true of all such references in the Quran." (Ibid., p. 89).
In another volume, al-Tabari states:
... That ram remained in custody with God until He let it go AS ISAAC'S RANSOM ... (The History of Al-Tabari: General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood, translated by Franz Rosenthal [State University of New York Press (SUNY), Albany, 1989], Volume 1, p. 310; capital emphasis ours)
In Musnad Ahmad, Number 2658, we are told:
The messenger of God said that Gabriel took Abraham to Jamra al-Aqabah (the upper Jamrah, the pillar or place for stoning) and then Satan appeared to him. Then he stoned Satan with seven stones so he fainted him to faint. Then he came to the middle Jamrah, and Satan again appeared to him. He again stoned him with seven stones causing Satan to faint. He then came to the lower Jamrah, and Satan again appeared to him. Again he stoned Satan, causing him to faint once again. Now when Abraham wanted to slaughter his son Isaac, he said his father, "Father, tie me so I don’t get afraid and my blood splash all over you when you slaughter me." So he took him and he tied him up, and then he took the knife. And when he wanted to slay him a voice called from behind him, "O Abraham, the vision has been fulfilled."
Here's a rough translation of the Arabic text, which we post here for those interested in reading it for themselves:
حدثنا يونس أخبرنا حماد عن عطاء بن السائب عن سعيد بن جبير عن ابن عباس أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إن جبريل ذهب بإبراهيم إلى جمرة العقبة فعرض له الشيطان فرماه بسبع حصيات فساخ ثم أتى الجمرة الوسطى فعرض له الشيطان فرماه بسبع حصيات فساخ ثم أتى الجمرة القصوى فعرض له الشيطان فرماه بسبع حصيات فساخ فلما أراد إبراهيم أن يذبح ابنه إسحاق قال لأبيه يا أبت أوثقني لا أضطرب فينتضح عليك من دمي إذا ذبحتني فشده فلما أخذ الشفرة فأراد أن يذبحه نودي من خلفه أن يا إبراهيم قد صدقت الرؤيا
The Tafsir attributed to Ibn Abbas states regarding S. 37:102:
(And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him) when his son was old enough to strive for Allah and obey Him; it is also said that this means: when his son was old enough to walk with him in the mountains, ((Abraham) said) to his son Ishmael; and it is also said: to his son Isaac: (O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee) I am commanded in a dream vision to sacrifice you. (So look, what thinkest thou) what do you say? (He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded) of sacrificing me. (Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast) in the face of this sacrifice. (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn 'Abbâs; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)
And the two Jalals write in reference to S. 37:107:
Then We ransomed him, the one whom he had been commanded to sacrifice, namely, Ishmael or Isaac - two different opinions - with a mighty sacrifice, [a mighty] ram from Paradise, the same one that Abel had offered as sacrifice: Gabriel, peace be upon him, brought it and the lord Abraham sacrificed it as he cried, Allāhu akbar, 'God is Great'. (Tafsir al-Jalalayn; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)
According to Muslim writer al-Massoudy, Ibn Abbas and Akrama debated each other over the identity of the son:
"Akrama asked: ‘Who was supposed to have been slain?’
Abdallah answered: ‘Ishmael!’
‘Why?’ asked Akrama.
Ben Abbas answered: ‘Because how can God pass the good news of Isaac's birth to Abraham, then order that he be killed?’
‘I can bring you proof from the Koran that Isaac was supposed to have been slain’. Said Akrama, ‘Thus will thy Lord prefer thee and teach thee the interpretation of events, and perfect His grace upon thee and upon the household of Jacob as He perfected it upon thy fathers, Abraham and Isaac. Lo! Thy Lord is All-Knowing and All-Wise’. (Joseph 6).
‘God's blessing to Abraham was by choosing him, and saving him’, said Akrama, ‘and to Isaac by redeeming him from slaying’." (3: pp. 52-53).
Also,
As the Kur'an verse above quoted does not state which son was to have been sacrificed, many Muslim theologians refer the intended sacrifice to Isma`il ... But it may be said that the oldest tradition - al-Tha`labi expressly emphasises the ashab and tabi`un, i.e. the Companions of the Prophet and their successors from `Umar b. al-Khattab to Ka`b al-Ahbar - did not differ from the Bible on this question. (Gibb and Kramers, A Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, p. 175)
In Mishkat Al-Masabih, Book 14, chapter 4, section 3, we are told:
Muhammad b. al-Muntashir told of a man who vowed to sacrifice himself if God rescued him from his enemy. He consulted Ibn 'Abbas who told him to consult Masruq, and when he consulted him he replied, "Do not sacrifice yourself, for if you are a believer you will kill a believing soul, and if you are an infidel you will hasten to hell; but buy a ram and sacrifice it for the poor, FOR ISAAC WAS BETTER THAN YOU AND HE WAS RANSOMED WITH A RAM." He told Ibn 'Abbas and he replied, "This is the decision I wanted to give you." Razin transmitted it. (Mishkat Al-Masabih English Translation With Explanatory Notes by Dr. James Robson, Volume I [Sh. Muhammad Ahsraf Publishers, Booksellers & Exporters, Lahore-Pakistan, Reprint 1990], p. 733; bold and capital emphasis ours)
The translator has a footnote which reads:
3. This agrees with the story in the Old Testament which says that Abraham was preparing to sacrifice Isaac, whereas the usual Muslim version is that it was Ishmael.
Qadi 'Iyad Ibn Musa al-Yahsubi, in his Kitab Ash-shifa bi ta'rif huquq al-Mustafa (Healing by the recognition of the Rights of the Chosen One), wrote:
It is said that when Ibrahim was thrown into the fire and tested, he was sixteen years old. When Ishaq was tested by the sacrifice, he was seven years old. When Ibrahim sought proof in the star, the moon and the sun, he was fifteen months old. (Muhammad Messenger of Allah: Ash-shifa of Qadi 'Iyad, translated by Aisha Abdarrahman Bewley [Madinah Press, Inverness Scotland, U.K. 1991; third reprint, paperback], p. 53; bold emphasis ours)
The great Muslim commentator al-Baidawi also believed that the child of sacrifice was Isaac. In his comments on S. 12:46, al-Baidawi states:
As He perfected it formerly on thy fathers: by appointing them as messengers. Some say (that God perfected his blessing) on Abraham by taking him as a ‘friend’ (khalil) and by saving him from the fire (into which the unbelievers had cast him), and (he perfected it) on Isaac by delivering him from the sacrifice and by ransoming him with a great victim (for the sacrifice) ... (Helmut Gätje, The Qur'an and Its Exegesis [Oneworld Publications, Oxford 1996], p. 107;)
The Tafsir attributed to Ibn Abbas states regarding S. 37:102:
(And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him) when his son was old enough to strive for Allah and obey Him; it is also said that this means: when his son was old enough to walk with him in the mountains, ((Abraham) said) to his son Ishmael; and it is also said: to his son Isaac: (O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee) I am commanded in a dream vision to sacrifice you. (So look, what thinkest thou) what do you say? (He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded) of sacrificing me. (Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast) in the face of this sacrifice. (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn 'Abbâs; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)
And the two Jalals write in reference to S. 37:107:
Then We ransomed him, the one whom he had been commanded to sacrifice, namely, Ishmael or Isaac - two different opinions - with a mighty sacrifice, [a mighty] ram from Paradise, the same one that Abel had offered as sacrifice: Gabriel, peace be upon him, brought it and the lord Abraham sacrificed it as he cried, Allāhu akbar, 'God is Great'. (Tafsir al-Jalalayn; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)
According to Muslim writer al-Massoudy, Ibn Abbas and Akrama debated each other over the identity of the son:
"Akrama asked: ‘Who was supposed to have been slain?’
Abdallah answered: ‘Ishmael!’
‘Why?’ asked Akrama.
Ben Abbas answered: ‘Because how can God pass the good news of Isaac's birth to Abraham, then order that he be killed?’
‘I can bring you proof from the Koran that Isaac was supposed to have been slain’. Said Akrama, ‘Thus will thy Lord prefer thee and teach thee the interpretation of events, and perfect His grace upon thee and upon the household of Jacob as He perfected it upon thy fathers, Abraham and Isaac. Lo! Thy Lord is All-Knowing and All-Wise’. (Joseph 6).
‘God's blessing to Abraham was by choosing him, and saving him’, said Akrama, ‘and to Isaac by redeeming him from slaying’." (3: pp. 52-53).
Also,
As the Kur'an verse above quoted does not state which son was to have been sacrificed, many Muslim theologians refer the intended sacrifice to Isma`il ... But it may be said that the oldest tradition - al-Tha`labi expressly emphasises the ashab and tabi`un, i.e. the Companions of the Prophet and their successors from `Umar b. al-Khattab to Ka`b al-Ahbar - did not differ from the Bible on this question. (Gibb and Kramers, A Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, p. 175)
In Mishkat Al-Masabih, Book 14, chapter 4, section 3, we are told:
Muhammad b. al-Muntashir told of a man who vowed to sacrifice himself if God rescued him from his enemy. He consulted Ibn 'Abbas who told him to consult Masruq, and when he consulted him he replied, "Do not sacrifice yourself, for if you are a believer you will kill a believing soul, and if you are an infidel you will hasten to hell; but buy a ram and sacrifice it for the poor, FOR ISAAC WAS BETTER THAN YOU AND HE WAS RANSOMED WITH A RAM." He told Ibn 'Abbas and he replied, "This is the decision I wanted to give you." Razin transmitted it. (Mishkat Al-Masabih English Translation With Explanatory Notes by Dr. James Robson, Volume I [Sh. Muhammad Ahsraf Publishers, Booksellers & Exporters, Lahore-Pakistan, Reprint 1990], p. 733; bold and capital emphasis ours)
The translator has a footnote which reads:
3. This agrees with the story in the Old Testament which says that Abraham was preparing to sacrifice Isaac, whereas the usual Muslim version is that it was Ishmael.
Qadi 'Iyad Ibn Musa al-Yahsubi, in his Kitab Ash-shifa bi ta'rif huquq al-Mustafa (Healing by the recognition of the Rights of the Chosen One), wrote:
It is said that when Ibrahim was thrown into the fire and tested, he was sixteen years old. When Ishaq was tested by the sacrifice, he was seven years old. When Ibrahim sought proof in the star, the moon and the sun, he was fifteen months old. (Muhammad Messenger of Allah: Ash-shifa of Qadi 'Iyad, translated by Aisha Abdarrahman Bewley [Madinah Press, Inverness Scotland, U.K. 1991; third reprint, paperback], p. 53; bold emphasis ours)
The great Muslim commentator al-Baidawi also believed that the child of sacrifice was Isaac. In his comments on S. 12:46, al-Baidawi states:
As He perfected it formerly on thy fathers: by appointing them as messengers. Some say (that God perfected his blessing) on Abraham by taking him as a ‘friend’ (khalil) and by saving him from the fire (into which the unbelievers had cast him), and (he perfected it) on Isaac by delivering him from the sacrifice and by ransoming him with a great victim (for the sacrifice) ... (Helmut Gätje, The Qur'an and Its Exegesis [Oneworld Publications, Oxford 1996], p. 107; )
Abraham and Isaac were shadows of the things that were to come, pointing to the Father and Son's willingness to sacrifice themselves in the greatest display of love the world has ever seen; the Father's willingness in sacrificing his eternal love, with the Son giving up his own life on behalf of fallen humanity:
"For God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8 R.S.V.).
"... For God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins." (1 John 4:8b-10 R.S.V.).
This is indeed the greatest love story the world has ever known:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16 R.S.V.).
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quote:BULL, do you think God is stupid?? How can you say that He CLEARLY recognizes Ishmael as the SON of Abraham and at the same time claim that God called Isaac his ONLY son?
The Bible is very clear:
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son ..." (Hebrews 11:17, R.S.V.).
* Isaac was the only *promised* child of Abraham, a fact which the Quran agrees with (cf. Genesis 17:15-21; Surah 11:69-73, 37:112-113, 51:24-30). Ishmael was never a promised child.
* Isaac was conceived miraculously to a barren mother and a very aged father, with the Quran likewise agreeing (cf. Genesis 17:15-17, 18:9-15, 21:1-7; Galatians 4:28-29; Surah 11:69-73, 51:24-30). Ishmael was conceived normally without the need of any miraculous intervention.
* God promised that it would be Isaac's descendants who would inherit the land given to Abraham. (Genesis 13:14-18, 15:18-21, 28:13-14). Ishmael had no part in the inheritance and promise given to Isaac through Abraham.
It is for these reasons that Isaac is called Abraham's only son since God himself reckoned him as the child of promise and blessings, an honor never bestowed upon Ishmael.
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Indeed no way you'll get anything about an Ishmael being the father of the Jews and or Christians..just doesn't work.
So you'll have to believe your Bibles I guess.. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sarah could've been a pain in da azz with all her nagging about that bastard boy Ishmael, so this probably made Abraham think of getting rid of the kid..now for sure he wouldn't waste his beloved legit boy Isaac, would he ? huh ?? would he ?? Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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All who confess Christ are not Christians. Few of them are. Just as all Abraham's seed aren't partakers of the promise, only an election, for It's a promise, not the physical union of a man and his wife producing a child in a certain lineage. That'd be works. But this is a promise attainable through faith.
The promise was foretold to Abraham, and God's elect foreordained before the foundation of the world.
"Neither because they're Abraham's seed are they all children: but in Isaac shall your seed be called."
Not in the rest of the Jews but through Isaac. Through Isaac came Christ. He was Abraham's Seed. The Seed of Abraham were all born of sex, natural men. "The second Adam is the Lord from heaven," (I Corinthians 15:47).
It was Abraham's faith that God recognized not his fertility which was works he could accomplish without God. He tried that with Hagar. The product, Ishmael, was rejected as heir to his natural inheritances and the promises of God. Lucifer tried to inherit the kingdom of Michael by hybreeding the Serpent and his seed with Adam's race.
Do you remember what Jesus had to say about two people [a man, and a woman] becoming one, when married?
"God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS CAUSE SHALL A MAN LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND CLEAVE TO HIS WIFE; AND THEY TWAIN SHALL BE ONE FLESH: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh." Mark 10:6-8
When a man and a woman gets married, they become one flesh until death do them part. Therefore, when God spoke to Abram, He was also speaking to Sarai.
For example:
When God promised Abram that he was going to have a son from his own bowels, Sara was automatically prepared to conceive a child at the same time, if she believed it. It was not based on her understanding it, or not, because God could not prepare one to become fertile without automatically preparing the other one also!
"And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him [Abram], saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." Genesis 15:4
Also, it is similar to when God would call Adam to come meet with Him in the garden of Eden. Eve automatically came too because she knew God was talking to the both of them.
It is very obvious that Sara did not believe at first that she could have a child of her own bowels, because she had been barren all her life, and then she gives her handmaid to Abram to give birth to a child in her place. So eventually Abram gave into temptation.
Abram developed urges to mate again, as a result of believing in God's promise that he would become fertile again, but his wife was unwilling to mate because of her old age and unbelief. So Abram carried out his wife's proposal, and violated the Covenant of God.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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"And he will be a wild man; and his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren"
This sounds as if it could be another prophecy, but relating to someone who would be born much later, and who isn't mentioned again in the Bible!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by this: Let's state the facts here and not run around in circles. Do you believe Christianity as a religion makes sense or not? If yes, continue on believing and if no then how do you describe a person who believes in something that does not make sense?
this, It makes perfect sense to me but others may see it as not logical. Christianity is spiritual, God is a spirit. You cannot view it as what would be reasonable to a fleshly minded man. For instance one might think that it is logical to fight your enemies, yet Jesus teaches to love your enemies. So if you think that it is logical to fight your enemies then of course you would think that it is illogical to love them and do good to them.
quote: 2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Jesus, The King of the Jews, came lowly riding upon an ass. To the Jews this cannot logically be their King because they look for their King to come with great wealth and sit on a throne to rule on Earth but Jesus clearly says that his kingdom is not of this world.
What is logic?
Is it logical that as we stand perfectly still on this Earth to think that the Earth is spinning at dizzying speeds, or that in a solid piece of wood the atoms are in constant motion?
Jesus was a carpenters son. He never held an office, wrote a book, lead an army, and he only taught for three years, yet where ever he went he drew huge crowds. Can you imagine? At one time there was a multitude around him and a woman touched the hem of his garment, he turned and said "who touched me". A disciple in disbelief said "you see the multitude thronging you and you say who touched me?" His response "I perceive that virtue has gone out of me". The women believed that if she could just touch the hem of his garment then she would be made whole, and she was. Jesus told her that her faith has made her whole... what do you think, logical?
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: If Hagar hadn't been 'sent away' there wouldn't have been a Zamzam that came out of nowhere in the middle of the Arabian desert, nor would the Kaaba have ever been created to exist till eternity for the people belonging to the 'nation' (obviously Muslims) to visit in their annual pilgrimage.
Allah had a reason for this 'sending away' thing, as He knows better, its all in the books..those of Abraham and Moses.
The well was in the wilderness at Beershebah and is still there, not in the Arabian desert but North Sinai. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: The well was in the wilderness at Beershebah and is still there, not in the Arabian desert but North Sinai.
Zamzam is more lucrative and makes more sense, don't believe anything that's been tampered with.. Posts: 3219 | From: Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone. | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Do you believe Christianity as a religion makes sense or not?
To me it makes perfect sense. What is there in Christianity that does not make sense to you?
If the Word of God is in the universe, which is a body, and has entered into it in its every part, what is there surprising or illogical in saying that He has entered also into human nature?
If it were unfitting for Him to have embodied Himself at all, then it would be unfitting for Him to have entered into the universe, and to be giving light and movement by His providence to all things in it, because the universe, as we have seen, is itself a body. But if it is right and fitting for Him to enter into the universe and to reveal Himself through it, then, because humanity is part of the universe along with the rest, it is no less fitting for Him to appear in a human body, and to enlighten and to work through that. And surely if it were wrong for a part of the universe to have been used to reveal His Divinity to men, it would be much more wrong that He should be so revealed by the whole !
Is it perhaps, because humanity is a thing created and brought into being out of non-existence that you regard as unfitting the manifestation of the God in our nature? If so, it is high time that you spurned Him from creation too for it too, has been brought out of non-being into being by the Word. But if, on the other hand, although creation is a thing that has been made, it is not unsuitable for the Word to be present in it, then neither is it unsuitable for Him to be in man. Man is a part of the creation, and the reasoning which applies to one applies to the other.
All things derive from the Word their light and movement and life, as the Gentile authors themselves say, "In Him we live and move and have our being." (See Acts 17. 28) Very well then. That being so, it is by no means unbecoming that the Word should dwell in man. So if, as we say, the Word has used that in which He is as the means of His self-manifestation, what is there ridiculous in that? He could not have used it had He not been present in it; but we have already admitted that He is present both in the whole and in the parts.
quote:Originally posted by this: Let's state the facts here and not run around in circles. Do you believe Christianity as a religion makes sense or not? If yes, continue on believing and if no then how do you describe a person who believes in something that does not make sense?
this, It makes perfect sense to me but others may see it as not logical.
Then why did you post that quote that christianity as a religion does not make sense? What did you want the reader to understand?
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: What is logic?
Is it logical that as we stand perfectly still on this Earth to think that the Earth is spinning at dizzying speeds, or that in a solid piece of wood the atoms are in constant motion?
It has nothing to do with logic. It is a scientific theory.
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Jesus was a carpenters son. He never held an office, wrote a book, lead an army, and he only taught for three years, yet where ever he went he drew huge crowds. Can you imagine? At one time there was a multitude around him and a woman touched the hem of his garment, he turned and said "who touched me". A disciple in disbelief said "you see the multitude thronging you and you say who touched me?" His response "I perceive that virtue has gone out of me". The women believed that if she could just touch the hem of his garment then she would be made whole, and she was. Jesus told her that her faith has made her whole... what do you think, logical?
I think if he existed and what you wrote happened then he must've been an interesting and influential man. Christianity certainly was and remains influential and that does not mean it is logical.
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