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Is it true that mankind today has reached such a level of progress that they have no need of the Messengers and their teachings? Are humans capable today of guiding themselves without referring to the methods set out by the Messengers? This comprehensive work which is full of clear proofs and evidences from the pure teachings of Islam, is an essential reading for all Muslims and seekers of truth.
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Religious morality does not seem ethical any more. And what we consider to be moral is not so for religions. Polygyny, slavery, animal sacrifice, marriage with the minors, etc are not immoral in Islam. But it is immoral for women to travel alone, not wear hijab or enter in an elevator alone with a stranger.
Whether you are moral because of this fear and greed or because you find satisfaction in leading a moral life, depends on your maturity and spiritual awareness
The religious morality is not divinely ordained. It is the morality of the ancient people, their sages and (in the case of Islam) their charlatans. We do not need the morality of the ancient man just as we do not need his technology, science or medicine. The morality of the ancient man must be buried with his bones. Modern humans must chart their own morality. Morality must evolve just as human knowledge and his awareness evolves.
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vwwvv- Please separate the immorality and evil ASSOCIATED with Islam with its actual nature. If you read the book of Islam on its own as it was meant to be accepted, there is no marriage to children, polygyny is restricted to the point of prohibition and slavery is discouraged, again to the point of prohibition. Wearing hijab, the rulings about travel and stupid rulings about elevators, speech and other misogynistic twaddle are all corruptions taken from politically motivated fairy tales. It is like Christianity, the purest form that is the most peaceful and loving has been corrupted beyond recognition...
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Stephie_ELH: vwwvv- Please separate the immorality and evil ASSOCIATED with Islam with its actual nature. If you read the book of Islam on its own as it was meant to be accepted, there is no marriage to children, polygyny is restricted to the point of prohibition and slavery is discouraged, again to the point of prohibition. Wearing hijab, the rulings about travel and stupid rulings about elevators, speech and other misogynistic twaddle are all corruptions taken from politically motivated fairy tales. It is like Christianity, the purest form that is the most peaceful and loving has been corrupted beyond recognition...
she can't separate it.
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: As a matter of fact, reading the Quran in its original Arabic often makes the Quran seem even more harsh and intolerant.
Quran is taken on the path the heart leads it. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:If you read the book of Islam on its own as it was meant to be accepted, there is no marriage to children, polygyny is restricted to the point of prohibition and slavery is discouraged, again to the point of prohibition.
If you had read the history of your own religion you would have known that Muhammad attacked the Jews of Medina and Kheibar and after killing the men he took their women and children and sold them as slaves.
He even allowed Muslim men to sleep with women captured in war as “their right hand possessions”. Omar and Ali enslaved hundreds of thousands of Persians and sold them in the markets of Mecca and Medina. Aisha had thousands of slaves. Where is that method to abolish slavery that you are talking about?
Can you be more specific? Can you show me a verse from the Quran that prohibit that? Muslims would practice slavery even today openly if they did not fear the reaction of the Westerners. In Sudan they are doing it right now. The Saudi Arabia is the biggest Market of young girls purchased from Iran that is now reduced to a poor third world country and other Islamic nations. The market of sex slaves in oil rich Arab countries is a multi billion dollar market. If Muhammad introduced a "method" I would like to know why he and his Sahaba (close followers) did not follow? What is that method and why it failed?
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Many societies throughout history have practised slavery, and Muslim societies were no exception.
It's misleading to use phrases such as 'Islamic slavery' and 'Muslim slave trade', even though slavery existed in many Muslim cultures at various times, since the Atlantic slave trade is not called the Christian slave trade, even though most of those responsible for it were Christians.
Islam's approach to slavery added the idea that freedom was the natural state of affairs for human beings and in line with this it limited the opportunities to enslave people, commended the freeing of slaves and regulated the way slaves were treated
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"Quran is taken on the path the heart leads it."
Could you elaborate on that please? I only ask, because I believe that the Muslims see it as an "instruction book", as far as I can tell, and I wonder what difference the state of the "heart" should have on straightforward instructions. After all, to hear is to obey, is it not?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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(They say): "Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower." ( Aal-e-Imran, Chapter3,Verse8)
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Allah made it not but as a message of good news for you and as an assurance to your hearts. And there is no victory except from Allah, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. ( Aal-e-Imran, Chapter3, Verse126)
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Sorry, Once, but if that was meant as an answer to my plea to "elaborate"; it hasn't! If anything, it has further muddied the waters.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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I would agree with that, Once. But the quote from Ayisha...."Quran is taken on the path the heart leads it."....would suggest to me that any particular passage can be understood in several ways, depending on how the reader feels, or what he needs, at that particular time. This would surprise me enormously, as I have been led to believe that the Quran is not to be interpreted, the words only being accepted and acted upon as they appear?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: I would agree with that, Once. But the quote from Ayisha...."Quran is taken on the path the heart leads it."....would suggest to me that any particular passage can be understood in several ways, depending on how the reader feels, or what he needs, at that particular time. This would surprise me enormously,
Why would it surprise you when we see vw doing just that every day?
quote:as I have been led to believe that the Quran is not to be interpreted, the words only being accepted and acted upon as they appear?
What do you think ibn Kathir et al have done if not interpret it according to something outside of it?
How do you think you get some people saying it's a religion of peace and others claiming we have to kill Christians if it's basically an instruction book?
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Like many non-Muslims, vw plainly believes that Muhammad made the whole thing up for his own personal benefit! But you, (who seem to believe that it came direct from Allah) are a Muslim, and I'm certain that I've read where you say that Quran, as the Word of Allah, is not to be messed with (or words to that effect). Surely this is where the "hear and obey" mantra comes from? Or am I wrong again?
"How do you think you get some people saying it's a religion of peace and others claiming we have to kill Christians if it's basically an instruction book?"
I would say, because someone is "messing" with the instructions written in Quran! The pertinent question would then be "Which view is right?" Is Allah the bloodthirsty hater of his creation, who requires all men to be as slaves, or is He the peaceful, loving God which so many Muslims claim.
If it's the latter; then Allah is making a right hash of that which God gave us in the perfection of the New Covenant of salvation by faith in the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Jesus. It wasn't broke, so why try to fix it?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:How do you think you get some people saying it's a religion of peace and others claiming we have to kill Christians if it's basically an instruction book?"
If someone were to ask me, do you believe that Islam is a religion of peace? my answer would not be "Yes" or "No."
Rather, my response would be, "First tell me what you mean when you say ‘Islam,’ for it is a term that is used in different ways." If by "Islam" we mean the religion that is practiced by more than a billion people around the world, I could reasonably answer with a qualified "Yes," because it is a religion of peace for many people (though not for all).
But if by "Islam" we mean the religion taught by Muhammad, I would have to respond with a resounding "No." At this point Muslims will be saying to themselves, "What does this infidel mean? There is only one Islam, perfectly preserved in the Holy Qur’an from the time it was given to Prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel."
However much like the idea that the Quran has been perfectly preserved, the idea that Islam has only one face is completely false. There has always been a psychological crisis in Islam, and if I were to diagnose it as having a particular mental illness, I would probably argue that it suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder. Islam has never been able to decide whether it wants to live in peace with unbelievers, or to pile their severed, unbelieving heads into a giant pyramid.
The reason that Islam suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder is that its founder also suffered from this disorder. I don’t mean this to be taken literally, of course. It is only meant to describe a peculiar phenomenon that went on in Muhammad’s head. When Muhammad first began receiving his "revelations," Muhammad was humble, devout in many ways, and, in general, a fine moral example. In essence, he was like the many fine examples of dedicated Muslims we see in the world today. He preached a religion of peace, and the hadiths we have from this period reflect his peaceful temperament.
Then something happened. Muhammad fled Mecca and moved to Medina, where his political power rapidly increased. Soon he and his followers began raiding caravans to support the fledgling religion. What followed can only be described as a reign of terror for those who refused to submit to Islam. Both men and women were slaughtered for writing satirical poems against Muhammad, and those who left the Islamic faith were exterminated. One woman was murdered in the dark for writing a poem against Muhammad; after she was slain, Muhammad declared that "Two goats won’t butt their heads about her." Hundreds of Jews were beheaded (after surrendering) for standing against Muhammad, and their wives and children were sold into slavery. A blind man who was reportedly more than a hundred years old had his head split open for saying that, if he could only see, he would throw a handful of dust at Muhammad. When a man named Uqba was about to be killed by Muslims and showed concern for his family by asking, "But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?" Muhammad answered by telling the doomed man that Hell would take care of them.
There are, of course, far more examples of violence than the ones listed here, but these should be sufficient to provide a picture of Muhammad’s idea of how Muslims should treat those who refuse to submit to Islam. Was Islam a religion of peace for the 600-900 Jewish men and boys whose heads were piled into trenches after they had surrendered? Was Islam a religion of peace for the woman who was stabbed to death in the midst of her five children? Was it a religion of peace for anyone who dared to speak out against Muhammad? No, it wasn’t. When Muhammad finally had a band of dedicated followers who would obey his violent commands without question, Islam was not a religion of peace.
Notice that I have approached this question regarding the nature of Islam using a basic historical analysis. Discussions about Islam typically revolve around certain verses in the Qur’an, but such discussions are often fruitless. The reason for this is that the Qur’an is very inconsistent in its approach towards unbelievers, due in large part to Muhammad’s own inconsistency. In conversations about Islam, a Muslim may argue that, according to the Qur’an, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256). A critic may reply with a very different passage:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection (9:29).
To this the Muslim replies, "Yes, it says to fight those who do not believe, but it is referring to unbelievers who attack Islam." Thus, according to many Muslims, Islam fights, but only in self-defense. So who’s right? The solution to the debate can be found in a historical examination of Islam. It is true that Muslims are only permitted to attack when threatened, but history shows what the early Muslims considered a threat. Anything other than complete submission to Islam was regarded as a threat to Islam, and so anything other than complete submission was met with extreme hostility. Even poetry and song lyrics, when used against Muhammad, were enough to warrant a sentence of death.
Hence, the verses in the Qur’an that teach Muslims to live in peace should be examined within the historical context of Muhammad’s life, for it is this life that sheds light on an apparently ambiguous message. This historical context also sheds light on modern aspects of Islam, which ultimately derive from the life of its founder.
I’m very happy that most Muslims are willing to live in peace with their neighbors. Yet we have to be honest here. Benevolent Muslims aren’t peaceful because they are following the example set by Muhammad. They are peaceful because they’ve chosen to do what’s right, and because they are willing to live far better lives than Muhammad himself lived. (excerpt from David Wood's The two faces of Islam)
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Like many non-Muslims, vw plainly believes that Muhammad made the whole thing up for his own personal benefit! But you, (who seem to believe that it came direct from Allah) are a Muslim, and I'm certain that I've read where you say that Quran, as the Word of Allah, is not to be messed with (or words to that effect). Surely this is where the "hear and obey" mantra comes from? Or am I wrong again?
vw (and many others) use other things 'outside' what God revealed to try to understand what God revealed. That which is outside what God revealed is from man and not God, it matters not a jot WHO that man is claimed to be. Islam is in what God revealed and IN what God revealed he said it was complete, fully detailed and easy to understand for those that 'give thought'. If it is complete then none of the verses IN there abrogate any other in there, if it is fully detailed then it needs nothing 'outside' of it added to it and if it is easy to undertand 'for those that give thought' then you have to use 'thought' when reading it. Nowhere in there does it lead you off to look elsewhere, in fact it warns you from looking elsewhere. In MY reading of Quran I have no doubt whatsoever that it is from God, not man, hence I 'reverted/converted' on reading it.
"I'm certain that I've read where you say that Quran, as the Word of Allah, is not to be messed with"
That can be taken 2 ways, No I don't think the word of God can be messed with in that I don't take it lightly and think of God as less than me and 2, the words should not be messed with as in 'changed' about or taken out of context of the WHOLE.
quote:"How do you think you get some people saying it's a religion of peace and others claiming we have to kill Christians if it's basically an instruction book?"
I would say, because someone is "messing" with the instructions written in Quran! The pertinent question would then be "Which view is right?" Is Allah the bloodthirsty hater of his creation, who requires all men to be as slaves, or is He the peaceful, loving God which so many Muslims claim.
I suppose you could say both as HE is the ONLY one in total control. We are talking about the Creator here, whatever you choose to label Him as. Back in Torah there were all the rules and regs and we were told we were created to worship HIM. There was a more mellow part of the message with Jesus and a final warning with Quran, a reminder to mankind who is boss and who we will return to, that there is no way out of that. The reminder (Quran is called that IN it) is basically that, reminding us there is only one worthly of worship and reminding us of the rules and regs but there is still a choice as we were given that as humans. The rules are clearly there and no it's actually not killing everyone that wont convert, quite the contrary, the punishment (after death, by God) for killing someone is as if you had killed all mankind. There are clearly defined rules there for those that give thought of a way this life should be lived and how you should interact with others. Also a great deal of Quran is what was PAST, reminders, various prophets and their dealings and various peoples reactions and where they went wrong, we are to learn FROM those parts. The 'we hear and obey' is throughout Quran for not questioning what God revealed, we obey it, but it also tells of those who say this but DON'T, as in the hypocrites among those there with Muhammed and of course among us.
quote:If it's the latter; then Allah is making a right hash of that which God gave us in the perfection of the New Covenant of salvation by faith in the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Jesus. It wasn't broke, so why try to fix it?
1, there is One God, in Arabic that is Allah, in English it is God, in French it is Deus (I think) in German it is Gott and in Aborigine it is Uknatu. The 'salvation by faith' is broken as your faith is in Jesus, not God. The faith, the worship the everything in the message (in it's entirity) is to have faith in GOD ALONE and not His messengers. You feel comfort with your faith, and that's great, but you also KNOW that what you have is NOT the whole of what came from God or even Jesus, you KNOW it was changed and sorted through in 325ad and you KNOW that many of its books were removed, they are being discovered up to now. You know all this yet you still blinker yourself to a small portion of what God has revealed and negate the rest, the real stuff which proves those close to Jesus never thought of him as God or any more a son of than you are. You KNOW Christianity as you have it now was born long after Christ 'ascended' and you KNOW that Paul is one who 'lead the different path' so to speak. If you really wanted to know the truth of what God revealed you would be delving a lot deeper to see WHY God had to reveal Quran and what the warnings are about what Jews and Christians did wrong, which muslims are SUPPOSED to learn from.
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quote:If it is complete then none of the verses IN there abrogate any other in there.
This doesn't solve anything.
With abrogation Quran is a violent book.
Without abrogation Quran is at best a confusing and ambiguous book. For example, are the people of scriptures believers in God or not? How do we know? Can they live in peace or they should be fought? Can they live without the fear of the Muslims or should they pay tribute for their safety? Are their religions going to be accepted or not?
Even if we accept that none of the verses in the Quran abrogate any other, you are still left with a book full of contradictory verses. Definitely the verses written in Medina contradict those written in Mecca. Which ones should we take?
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Muhammad was not the only person in Arabia, who had claimed to be the Prophet of God. .
Existence of several Prophets at the same time in the same country shows that Prophethood has nothing to do with Allah; God would not have sent so many Prophets to the Arabs at the same time. These men were, obviously, self-designated Prophets. Muhammad won because he adopted national approach
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Ayisha, you say that I KNOW all these things you rabbit on about! I'll tell you what I KNOW.
I KNOW THAT MY REDEEMER LIVETH!
You can throw the Bible away, and the Quran. They are pieces of paper. But Jesus lives!
You can shout it all you like, but you do KNOW even though you don't WISH to know.
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quote:The 'salvation by faith' is broken as your faith is in Jesus, not God.
And Jesus is what? A manifestation of God. The only man in the history of mankind who trumped death. And because of that, we have the hope of eternal life if we believe and trust in Him.
What assurances do you have that Muhammad is a real messenger of God? None, except a violent, confused book. As a Muslim you have No Assurance of Salvation.
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quote:The 'salvation by faith' is broken as your faith is in Jesus, not God.
And Jesus is what? A manifestation of God. The only man in the history of mankind who trumped death. And because of that, we have the hope of eternal life if we believe and trust in Him.
What assurances do you have that Muhammad is a real messenger of God? None, except a violent, confused book. As a Muslim you have No Assurance of Salvation.
What was Jesus, he was a prophet of God, a messenger of God. No not the only man to have trumped death, read more OT there were others 'ascended' and other 'sons of God' and other 'only begotten sons of God', read your history. You have NO assurance of eternal life in Heaven, you believe in hell so there are those who will have eternal life in hell, you have NO assurance that you wont be there at least for a stint. The assurance I have of Muhammed being a messenger of God is in the book he recited from Him. As a muslim I know I have to work for my salvation with God, not with a man I keep claiming is 'alive and the living God'. As a Muslim I am not so arrogant to think I can cause unrest, spread lies and be a general pain in the arse while at the same time claiming to be a follower of Jesus and still think I am 'saved' just by believing a man is God. As a muslim I know God is logical and He sent messengers with messages and every one is about ONE GOD and I dont think I can rape, murder, kill, steal, etc etc and because I believe in a man I will be assured a place in heaven.
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Ayisha, whether I WISH to know or not is entirely irrelevant. I don't know any of the things you mention as being fact, whether they are or not!
The cry of "no compulsion in religion" which the Muslims keep on coming up with, is something of a mis-statement where Christianity is concerned.
When a person knows he/she is convicted of sin, the conviction is imparted only by God's Holy Spirit. The ONLY remedy for sin is God's unbounded love as shown in the sinless life, the agonising death, and the victorious resurrection of Jesus.
Therefore, I'm hesitant to say, there actually IS compulsion in religion, as (at the point of that spiritual conviction) there is really only one option, and the penitent is compelled by God to accept the salvation He offers in Jesus. Thus, bending one's will to God is the only way to escape an eternity of separation from Him.
Being in His presence is Heaven, and Heaven starts for the believer when he/she accepts that free offer of redemption and the resulting communion with God which only He can give.
"You have NO assurance of eternal life in Heaven"
I beg your pardon, madam Ayisha, but I and untold millions before me actually DO HAVE that assurance. Just because Muhammad is not able to offer the same to his followers, in no way impacts on the experience of those who follow what actually IS the religion of truth!
Edited to add....
I can just imagine you stamping your foot while saying, "You have NO assurance of eternal life in Heaven". It just tickled me!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As a muslim I know I have to work for my salvation with God, not with a man I keep claiming is 'alive and the living God'.
Ayisha, All of us sin not matter how hard you try to do good works. The punishment for this sin is death or eternal separation from God. Our righteousness is as filthy rags to God. The Bible says that if you do not obey every jot and tittle you are guilty of breaking the whole law. In other words if you are counting on your works for salvation you have already lost. I would never want to be judged by the law. You are judged by even your thoughts and mind. If we worry or lust or hate then we have sinned, we are all guilty before God.
Isn't it true that the Quran says that Jesus is alive with God. Jesus over came death, he died and rose from the dead. He is the only one who has done this. Jesus never had to ask for forgiveness of sin because he never sinned... he is the only one who never sinned...
Some things you really should acknowledge and accept because you are Muslim and believe what the Quran says. It's not a battle, it's a search for the truth, for all of us. Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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Hell is eternity in the presence of God without a mediator.
Heaven is eternity in the presence of God, with a mediator.
The Bible affirms the omnipresence of God. God is infinite. With regard to space He is not contained in his creation, or limited by its dimensions in any way. He is immense, having no “no-go” areas from which he is excluded.
Sinners are said to depart from God's presence
Even though God's omnipresence is affirmed the Bible freely uses language about people departing from, or being sent away from God's presence. This is Cain's fear, as God's face will then be hidden from him (Gen. 4:14).
In addition to the language of being removed from God's presence we can add that of separation. Here we are confronted with Isaiah's famous words (Isa. 59:2), “but your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.”
It is a spiritual separation that we experience because of our sin, not a strictly local separation. The language of drawing near and departing from God's presence isn't a matter of physical distance but of his relationship to us. Our sin creates an ethical distance not a geographical one. We know in a limited way from our own experience that we can be in the same room as someone physically, but if we have fallen out with them it is like we are a million miles apart. So Isaiah says that on account of Israel's sins God had hidden his face from them.
Is God present in Hell? We have to say that he is. Firstly, because Scripture affirms that he is. Was God present at the cross when Christ was forsaken? He was spatially as present in Jerusalem then as he is today. Nevertheless in a way that we cannot comprehend but which is the cause of all our hope in time and eternity, we believe that the Son of God knew all the torments of a condemned sinner, and all the relational distance that guilty sinners will receive. His experience of being forsaken was not imagined (Mark 15:33-34). In that cry of dereliction he knew abandonment, as Christ the only true and perfect covenant keeper, bore the full weight of the covenant curses in the place of his people (Gal. 3:10-14).
What are the punishments of sin in the world to come?
A. The punishments of sin in the world to come, are everlasting separation from the comfortable presence of God, and most grievous torments in soul and body, without intermission, in hell-fire forever. (emphasis added)
Hell is not spatial separation from God, it cannot be because God is omnipresent. No, Hell is separation from the comfortable presence of God. It is the unshielded experience of the presence of God in his holiness and justice, and the absence of his mercy and grace.
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quote:I would never want to be judged by the law. You are judged by even your thoughts and mind. If we worry or lust or hate then we have sinned, we are all guilty before God.
This is also a point that Jesus frequently made in verses such as these:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ BUT I TELL YOU that *anyone* who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:21-22
"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ BUT I TELL YOU that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28; cf. 5:29-48
The typical rabbinical style of teaching was to quote extensively from learned teachers, who provided the basis of authority for one's own teaching. But Jesus did exactly the opposite. He began, ‘You have heard that it was said the men of old…’ and quoted the Mosaic Law; then he continued, ‘But I say to you…’ and gave his own teaching. Jesus thus equated his own authority with that of the divinely given Torah. It's no wonder that Matthew comments, ‘When Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he taught as one who had authority, and not as their scribes’ (Matt 7:28-29).
Jesus' use of ‘amen’ expresses his authority. The expression frequently attributed to Jesus, ‘Truly, truly I say to you,’ is historically unique and is recognized on all hands to have been used by Jesus to preface his teaching ... Ben Witherington in his acclaimed study of the Christology of Jesus explains the significance of Jesus' use of the phrase ‘Amen, I say to you’:
It is insufficient to compare it to ‘thus says the Lord,’ although that is the closest parallel. Jesus is not merely speaking for Yahweh, but for himself and on his own authority.... This strongly suggests that he considered himself to be a person of authority above and beyond what prophets claimed to be. He could attest to his own truthfulness and speak on his own behalf, and yet his words were to be taken as having the same or greater authority than the divine words of the prophet. Here was someone who thought he possessed not only divine inspiration... but also divine authority and the power of direct divine utterance. The use of amen followed by ‘I say unto you’; must be given its full weight in light of its context — early Judaism.
"That Witherington's analysis is correct is evident from the complaint of the orthodox Jewish writer Ahad ha' Am: ‘Israel cannot accept with religious enthusiasm, as the Word of God, the utterances of a man who speak in his own name — not "thus saith the Lord," but "I say unto you." This "I" is in itself sufficient to drive Judaism away from the Gentiles forever.’"
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Ayisha, whether I WISH to know or not is entirely irrelevant. I don't know any of the things you mention as being fact, whether they are or not!
Then either you have never looked for truth or you have no interest in it.
quote:The cry of "no compulsion in religion" which the Muslims keep on coming up with, is something of a mis-statement where Christianity is concerned.
No idea what you mean here.
quote:When a person knows he/she is convicted of sin, the conviction is imparted only by God's Holy Spirit. The ONLY remedy for sin is God's unbounded love as shown in the sinless life, the agonising death, and the victorious resurrection of Jesus.
disagree
quote:Therefore, I'm hesitant to say, there actually IS compulsion in religion, as (at the point of that spiritual conviction) there is really only one option, and the penitent is compelled by God to accept the salvation He offers in Jesus.
disagree
quote:Thus, bending one's will to God is the only way to escape an eternity of separation from Him.
of course!
quote:Being in His presence is Heaven, and Heaven starts for the believer when he/she accepts that free offer of redemption and the resulting communion with God which only He can give.
so you are in heaven now?
quote:"You have NO assurance of eternal life in Heaven"
I beg your pardon, madam Ayisha, but I and untold millions before me actually DO HAVE that assurance.
and that arrogance that goes with it.
quote: Just because Muhammad is not able to offer the same to his followers, in no way impacts on the experience of those who follow what actually IS the religion of truth!
Muhammed offered nothing. Your problem is that because you cannot imagine the nature of God and His message so you worship a man, you think we do too. Muhammed's ONLY duty was to deliver the message from God.
quote:Edited to add....
I can just imagine you stamping your foot while saying, "You have NO assurance of eternal life in Heaven". It just tickled me!
That's only in your imagination, the same place you are convinced of a place in heaven no matter what atrocities you commit. You make me smile, not stamp my feet. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I'll have to get back to you, Ayisha. We're off to the Meridien to watch the tourists!
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As a muslim I know I have to work for my salvation with God, not with a man I keep claiming is 'alive and the living God'.
Ayisha, All of us sin not matter how hard you try to do good works. The punishment for this sin is death or eternal separation from God
Doro, we all sin yes, and we all DIE. In death we will meet God, we will be DEAD, no LIFE.
quote: Our righteousness is as filthy rags to God. The Bible says that if you do not obey every jot and tittle you are guilty of breaking the whole law.
Then according to that jesus DID sin as he DID break the law you speak of, could it be that the law you think of is NOT quite the law that makes it all work? Jesus said that nothing will pass from the law and you claim it's all past and he in some way renewed it all so we can carry on stealing and committing as many sins as we wish but he has already paid for this? It makes no sense at all. So all those pedophile priests are all ok, murderers are all ok, as long as the 'believe' that Jesus DIED for all our sins? No sense at all.
quote: In other words if you are counting on your works for salvation you have already lost.
You can't make that decision, only God can make that decision and the number 1 rule that must not be broken is the very first commendment, Thou shall have no other Gods but ME.
quote:I would never want to be judged by the law. You are judged by even your thoughts and mind. If we worry or lust or hate then we have sinned, we are all guilty before God.
But you will be judged by the laws of God and yes its to warn about exactly that. You are saying the most hateful sick minded of the human race are all assured a place in heaven for wearing a cross and believing jesus died so they can continue being hateful lustful arseholes? No sense.
quote:Isn't it true that the Quran says that Jesus is alive with God. Jesus over came death, he died and rose from the dead. He is the only one who has done this. Jesus never had to ask for forgiveness of sin because he never sinned... he is the only one who never sinned...
No he is NOT the only one that has ever done this! Read OT please. He was not the only begotten son, there were others, he was not the first born son, there were others, he is not the only one ascended, there were others before him.
quote:Some things you really should acknowledge and accept because you are Muslim and believe what the Quran says. It's not a battle, it's a search for the truth, for all of us.
I accept what God says and in Quran He warned very clearly that the Christians gave Him a son, He also warned very clearly that Jesus was a messenger and prophet from Him, just like Moses, Abraham, Muhammed and all the others and He also warns to make no distinction among ANY of them.
Yes it is a search for truth but I don't sit stagnant in my search just reading the one thing which many here seem to do going round the same blurb which makes no sense.
Sorry Doro, this has never made sense to me and it never will, it is illogical and there is too much proof out there that this is not how it was. When I read Quran it made complete sense of it all, Alhamdulillah!
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:you are convinced of a place in heaven no matter what atrocities you commit
Once we accept Jesus Christ's atonement, we are under obligation to do his will, a person cannot be under grace and commit attrocities. Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:He also warned very clearly that Jesus was a messenger and prophet from Him, just like Moses, Abraham
And we all know how much trustworthy is Muhammad, the man who said "God is a plotter" and the "best deceiver".
Jesus warned us "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit."
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24 RSV)
"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 RSV)
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1 RSV)
"test everything; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21 RSV)
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
Hi Ayisha, back from the Meridien, and a lovely smoked turkey and cheese baguette with chips! Now to business.
"so you are in heaven now?"
I'm starting with this as I don't think your prior comments require (or deserve) answers. Here's a Muslim type of answer for you... Yes and No. We've been through this on several occasions, but as I have the "patience of Job", I'll try to get it across to you again. The Christian is the dwelling place of God's Holy Spirit here on earth, it is through the medium of the Christian that God does much of His work, and so He uses His Spirit within us to guide us in the path which He wants us to tread. Sometimes it coincides with our natural inclinations, and we find it easy. But sometimes it goes against that which we would prefer as "natural" beings. Nevertheless, when we are specifically doing His will, we are at one with Him by the Spirit directing our spirit, and thereby almost in the same state as we will be in Heaven. That is why the hymnwriter was inspired to write "Oh what a foretaste of Glory Divine!" It's as near to Heaven as anyone can get in the flesh.
"and that arrogance that goes with it."
I'm sad that you see it as arrogance. I've got to point out that the Muslim is a good deal more arrogant: in refusing God's love and redemption, as foretold in the scriptures previous to the New Testament, and actually throwing it back in His face!
"Muhammed offered nothing. Your problem is that because you cannot imagine the nature of God and His message so you worship a man, you think we do too. Muhammed's ONLY duty was to deliver the message from God."
I don't have to imagine the nature of God, He shows it to me every single day!!!! And I wish that you'd get away from telling us that we "worship a man", when you know that we don't! We worship God in that man. I'm quite sure that you don't worship Muhammad. But I'm equally convinced that most of your fellows do. How many of them step into or out of a room with the same foot that Muhammad did? They imitate as many of his mannerisms as possible, including (in Luxor anyway) marrying the rich old lady! When someone insults his name, they are threatened with death, at the very least. To speak against him is considered as blasphemy. And you tell me Muslims don't worship him? Give over!
"That's only in your imagination, the same place you are convinced of a place in heaven no matter what atrocities you commit. You make me smile, not stamp my feet."
I certainly smiled as I imagined you stamping while emphasising the word "NO". Insh'Allah, the only atrocities I'll ever commit will be in my poor composition. (My old English Master, Beaky, will be turning in his grave at the poverty of my prose.)
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Hi Ayisha, back from the Meridien, and a lovely smoked turkey and cheese baguette with chips!
sounds delicious! will read the rest tomorrow, eyes not working now. It's a bugger reducing the coffee intake, can't stay awake long now Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Hi Ayisha, back from the Meridien, and a lovely smoked turkey and cheese baguette with chips! Now to business.
"so you are in heaven now?"
I'm starting with this as I don't think your prior comments require (or deserve) answers. Here's a Muslim type of answer for you... Yes and No. We've been through this on several occasions, but as I have the "patience of Job", I'll try to get it across to you again. The Christian is the dwelling place of God's Holy Spirit here on earth, it is through the medium of the Christian that God does much of His work, and so He uses His Spirit within us to guide us in the path which He wants us to tread. Sometimes it coincides with our natural inclinations, and we find it easy. But sometimes it goes against that which we would prefer as "natural" beings. Nevertheless, when we are specifically doing His will, we are at one with Him by the Spirit directing our spirit, and thereby almost in the same state as we will be in Heaven. That is why the hymnwriter was inspired to write "Oh what a foretaste of Glory Divine!" It's as near to Heaven as anyone can get in the flesh.
Thank you for explaining it.
quote:"and that arrogance that goes with it."
I'm sad that you see it as arrogance. I've got to point out that the Muslim is a good deal more arrogant: in refusing God's love and redemption, as foretold in the scriptures previous to the New Testament, and actually throwing it back in His face!
Strange how people see things isn't it.
quote:"Muhammed offered nothing. Your problem is that because you cannot imagine the nature of God and His message so you worship a man, you think we do too. Muhammed's ONLY duty was to deliver the message from God."
I don't have to imagine the nature of God, He shows it to me every single day!!!! And I wish that you'd get away from telling us that we "worship a man", when you know that we don't! We worship God in that man. I'm quite sure that you don't worship Muhammad. But I'm equally convinced that most of your fellows do. How many of them step into or out of a room with the same foot that Muhammad did? They imitate as many of his mannerisms as possible, including (in Luxor anyway) marrying the rich old lady! When someone insults his name, they are threatened with death, at the very least. To speak against him is considered as blasphemy. And you tell me Muslims don't worship him? Give over!
in the same way those of the christian faith do many odd things I can only say this is not from Islam.
quote:"That's only in your imagination, the same place you are convinced of a place in heaven no matter what atrocities you commit. You make me smile, not stamp my feet."
I certainly smiled as I imagined you stamping while emphasising the word "NO". Insh'Allah, the only atrocities I'll ever commit will be in my poor composition. (My old English Master, Beaky, will be turning in his grave at the poverty of my prose.)
composition is fine, very good in fact, Beaky would be proud. Glad made you smile though
So, what where the new batch of tourists like? Did you listen to the welcome meeting speech?? Have you heard any of those? Scary, surprising some come back!
My bessie mate arrives tomorrow, dead excited Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Actually we were a bit late, so missed the newcomers. There are quite a few in there though, quite encouraging. We haven't seen or heard a welcome meeting for a long time, I'd struggle to keep my gob shut, I think!
Enjoy your time with your mates. God bless.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Actually we were a bit late, so missed the newcomers. There are quite a few in there though, quite encouraging. We haven't seen or heard a welcome meeting for a long time, I'd struggle to keep my gob shut, I think!
Friend of mine was in the other hotel bit up from that one a while back when the welcome meeting was being done. She was gobsmacked, they were told to keep to the hotel arranged tours as going 'out there' alone 'you can be killed' and even though the hotel arranged tours are more expensive they are safer and that was said by an Egyptian tour leader BEFORE the revolution. No wonder first timers don't dare leave the hotels!
I like to sit outside Oasis on Monday or Weds evenings and watch the caleche prosession with freshies on board all awe stuck
quote:Enjoy your time with your mates. God bless.
I will thanks, she's bringing me 3 new cross stitch kits, Bisto and Salad cream dead excited God bless you too Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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1) The role of Messenger requires a great many tasks to be performed: addressing men and women, meeting people in secret and openly, moving throughout the land, confronting liars and establishing proof against them and debating with them, preparing and leading armies, and going through the sufferings of war. All of that is suitable for men but not for women.
2) The role of Messenger demands that the Messengers should be in charge of those who follow him, so he issues commands and prohibitions to his followers, and he rules and judges among them. If a woman were instructed with such tasks, she would not be able to do them properly, and there would be people who would refuse to follow and obey her.
3) Masculinity is more perfect, as we have explained above. Hence Allah has given the role of responsibility to men over women. … And the messenger said that women are lacking in reason and religious commitment.
(p.128)
How lovely and inspiring. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
You read also in the book that there are women who are prophets ( not messengers) in the book. The example of that is The mother of Moses.
The point is that whoever does good stuff whether male or female gets rewards from Allah. A man can lift 10 KG can be equal to a woman who will lift 2 KG. The balance of Allah is fair. In some situation, males are better than females. In some others females are better.
It is not a discrimination. Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:The balance of Allah is fair. In some situation, males are better than females. In some others females are better.
If the balance of Allah is fair, then why the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire are women? Moroever Allah send women to hell for the most trivial things like displeasing their husbands.
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)."
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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Are you saying Allah was unfair and discriminative when Allah created men with more muscles? Are you saying that Allah was unjust to choose a male messenger( example Muhammed alayhi alasalat wal salam) as a prophet and messenger and did not choose a woman?
vwwww
complete the Hadith you have just mentioned to understand the meaning of the hadith in complete.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri On 'Id ul Fitr or 'Id ul Adha Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, "O people! Give alms." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He replied, "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray."
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
It is pretty rude answering a question with another question. Why do you avoid answering mine?
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Are you saying Allah was unfair and discriminative when Allah created men with more muscles?
That's entirely irrelevant in regards to the point I raised.
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Are you saying that Allah was unjust to choose a male messenger( example Muhammed alayhi alasalat wal salam) as a prophet and messenger and did not choose a woman?
I am saying that we simply don't know if there were female messengers and prophets or not. According to the Qur'an, there were many messengers sent to many nations and only a few of them are being mentioned by name.
And I'm saying that it is stupid and discriminating to say women couldn't be messengers because they are not as perfect as men, or not able to perform the abovementioned tasks.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: 3) Masculinity is more perfect, as we have explained above. Hence Allah has given the role of responsibility to men over women. [/QB]
This is not against the Quran:
Q.4:34 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded;
The superiority of men over women is also ratified in another verse of Quran where it says: “and men are a degree above them (women)”. Q.2:228
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
the hadith is clear now. It is a warning to women who curse frequently and who are ungrateful to husbands.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:the hadith is clear now. It is a warning to women who curse frequently and who are ungrateful to husbands.
However, there is no mention of men going to suffer any consequence for their mistreating of their wives. As a matter of fact, men are instructed to punish their disobeying wives, verbally, sexually and even physically.
Posts: 1365 | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
We have no hand in creating ourselves. Allah choose man to have more muscles and choose women to have womb. What's wrong in that? whether there are a female messengers or not, What is the point? In my opinion, in certain nations, A woman messnger can be the best. in some other nations, a woman messenger will not succeed.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:the hadith is clear now. It is a warning to women who curse frequently and who are ungrateful to husbands.
However, there is no mention of men going to suffer any consequence for their mistreating of their wives. As a matter of fact, men are instructed to punish their disobeying wives, verbally, sexually and even physically.
There are lots of other hadith telling men to treat wives gently and politely. Also in Quran, there are lots of verse about that.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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