Nazanin, 17, was sentenced to death by hanging for defending herself against three rapists.
A young girl who defended herself and her chastity against three male assailants who intended to kidnap and rape her causing injury to one of them who later died in hospital was condemned to death by hanging in an Islamic court in Iran. Nazanin who has seen no more than 17 Springs, all of which under the tyrannical rule of the Mullahs is now facing execution for trying to defend herself and her honor.
No where in the world and under no law self defense is considered to be a crime, but in the tyrannical mullacracy of Iran if a woman does not resist rape she will be stoned as adulterer and if she does she will be hanged.
Nazanin, this young innocent girl, was assaulted by three criminal men in the city of Karaj while walking home in the midday last March (2005). To defend herself she pulled out a knife and stabbed one of her assailants. The knife penetrated the ribs of her attacker who later died in the hospital. The attacks on women in Iran is so frequent that many are forced to carry a concealed weapon for self defense. Unfortunately the Islamic law does not even allow women the right to self defense.
Despite the fact that she had been acting in self defense, as shown by the evidences presented and the testimony of eyewitnesses, Nazanin was sentenced to death by hanging. In the last court hearing she told the judge “I only defended myself and the honor of my family”. She repeated this several times. Her words fell of deaf ears and the all male jury who like their misogynist prophet thought it is outrageous for a woman to stand for her rights and defend her dignity and honor, swiftly ordered her execution.
The travesty of justice in Islamic Republic of Iran is beyond description. Please send this news to all the newspapers big and small. Please do not allow this crime go unnoticed. This girl is an innocent flower in the hands of ferocious beasts. Do not allow them to nip her young life in the bud. Let us together provoke an outcry so loud that the ruling thugs in Iran can’t ignore.
These criminals have no shame and don’t give a hoot to world outcry and condemnation. Nonetheless it is our duty as humans not to remain silent.
Please ask your newspaper to report this story.
Please write to your MP and urge the Parliament in your country to condemn the Islamic regime of Iran for their misogyny, human rights violations and crime against humanity.
Please complain to the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner. tb-petitions@ohchr.org and ask them to pressure Iran to free Nazanin.
You have to state your name, nationality and address to the all the above if you want your complaint be taken seriously.
A few years ago the son of one of the Mullahs shot and killed a policeman. He walked free by giving a few thousands of dollars to the family of the victim.
“Evil triumphs when good people do nothing”.
Will you give a few minutes of your time to save this precious girl’s innocent life? She has not much time as executions in Iran are swift. Please show your humanity and act now.
posted
These fundamentalist Muslims are idiots. Removing them from any power position is a worthy goal for any decent person. To try to apply some 7th century social ethic to the modern world is the height of ignorance. It is not God they represent, but rather the other side.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
To stab a would be attacker in the chest with a knife is NOT "reasonable defense" even in English law. What was this girl doing carrying a knife in the first place. There is more to this case that is not obvious, and I reserve jugement.
A girl does not carry a knife to protect herself with unless she "expects" to be attacked. Why would she do this, and do you know any girls who carry knives on them?
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: To stab a would be attacker in the chest with a knife is NOT "reasonable defense" even in English law. What was this girl doing carrying a knife in the first place. There is more to this case that is not obvious, and I reserve jugement.
A girl does not carry a knife to protect herself with unless she "expects" to be attacked. Why would she do this, and do you know any girls who carry knives on them?
What a f-ed up response. Girls and young women are held up to unrealistic expectations of virtue and chastity in the Islamic world. What kind of young girl carries around a knife? One who lives in a society where SHE will be to blame if she's raped!
She was in a no-win situation...and any man who tries to rape a woman deserves to be stabbed in the chest and more.
Posts: 38 | From: New York City | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The US permits various types of weapons to be carried. No one is really required to explain what kind of assailant they may be protecting themselves from. With right to carry permits for handguns, job description, such as travelling salesperson, may be considered as further evidence of need, but may not be considered as a demonstration of LACK of need. In other words, I have one. Knives in the US are regulated differently, as are firearms and other weapons, from state to state. Most states do not allow butterfly knives to be carried. Many have a law against switchblades. I always carry a knife, usually more than one. Not because of fear of attack but because I almost ALWAYS have to cut something. Twine, line, an apple, a stick, the belly of a fish...the list goes on and on. I think if you "expect" to be attacked, because of your neighborhood or because of specific threats, carrying a stun gun, knife, handgun, or pepper spray would be a GOOD IDEA, and I recommend that. However, I must add that the single greatest danger in arming oneself is not that you will hurt your assailant, but that they will manage to get the weapon away from you before you can use it. Peace!
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
As Usual, Islamism or political Islam rears it's ugly head.
Islamsism hates women. Women are nothing but walking vaginas pretty much.
Unfortunately, my beloved Egypt is going the route Iran has gone. Only the Egyptian people will regret it.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: this is truely sad....
we need likes of Alija Izetbegovic, and Amr khaled in this world
I doubt that those would help to change the double standards and hypocrisy that leads to cases like this – quite the opposite.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: this is truely sad....
we need likes of Alija Izetbegovic, and Amr khaled in this world
I doubt that those would help to change the double standards and hypocrisy that leads to cases like this – quite the opposite.
can u clarify Dalia, just for noting I don't believe a word of what Fran says and I am pretty sure that there is something that wasn'
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven: this is truely sad....
we need likes of Alija Izetbegovic, and Amr khaled in this world
I doubt that those would help to change the double standards and hypocrisy that leads to cases like this – quite the opposite.
can u clarify Dalia, what double standard you are talking about?
it worth noting that I don't believe a word of what Fran says and I am pretty sure that there is something that wasn't mentioned here I don't find any defend from the Iranian side .. they just killed her because she caused the death of her rapist , this can't be in any religion and sure not in islam !! No culture will accept this nor a human would and this can't be true, I would like to hear the other side opnion what the iranian government says May be it is another fairy tale from Fran
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: can u clarify Dalia, what double standard you are talking about?
You don't see any double standard in the story?
I was referring to the double standard that punishes women while letting men get away without any punishment. This is nothing new, it has existed the world over and will exist; but it's more prevalent in some countries than others. Unfortunately many Muslim countries have a bad record when it comes to how men and women are treated legally and socially.
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: it worth noting that I don't believe a word of what Fran says and I am pretty sure that there is something that wasn't mentioned here I don't find any defend from the Iranian side ..
Yes, it is true. I read this story a little while ago already and wanted to post it here but couldn't find any article in English.
The Iranian regime is one of dictatorships and human rights violations are the norm there, but I think that's common knowledge anyway.
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: they just killed her because she caused the death of her rapist , this can't be in any religion and sure not in islam !! No culture will accept this nor a human would and this can't be true, I would like to hear the other side opnion what the iranian government says May be it is another fairy tale from Fran
I'm very surprised you're so outraged about this. No, unfortunately it's not a fairy tale and unfortunately cases like this are not unusual at all.
You should be outraged at those that twist and abuse Islam in order to justify such outrageous verdicts.
Weren't you the one who argued in the thread about stoning how virtually impossible it would be to actually stone people for fornication because of the witness rule etc? Remember sonomod said that in practice the laws are bent and twisted and re-interpreted – usually to the disadvantage of women?! You pushed this aside, implying that would be a very rare case. You're doing the same now by suggesting this story can't possibly be true while those of us who inform ourselves about what's going on in the world know that, sadly, this story is not an exception.
posted
well I think that female has rights and it was taken by them but not from the religion, I truely don't know wether this story is right or wrong but if it is right then it is the most barbaric story I ever heard of, and it can't be related to islam at any level, but my problem is that I can't trust Fran as a source of information, at any level I was ordered by the quran to investigate the information sources "O'believers if a fornicate informs you with a news, you have to investigate wether it is right or wrong so you don't judge people with ignorance" anyhow I will try to get to the information and as I told you I can't imagine it is truth, can I ask you Dalia a question what was told to you about Egypt before you come and how did you find Egypt, can u answer this frankly
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Egyptian_Patriot: As Usual, Islamism or political Islam rears it's ugly head.
Islamsism hates women. Women are nothing but walking vaginas pretty much.
Unfortunately, my beloved Egypt is going the route Iran has gone. Only the Egyptian people will regret it.
I don't think Islamisms or even Political Islam is at fault here.
Its misgony, male hate and envy of women.
Instead of the Iranian government going after her attackers/rapists and defending Islams guilding principles they blame the victim instead.
Happens in the west all the time, a abused wife's husband finally gets around to killing her, she defends herself and actually wins the fight. If she lost, she'd be dead, her husband and killer would be arrainged on manslaughter one charges and then later plea to manslaughter two be given 5-6 years and only spend 2-3 years in medium security prison. He gets out, moves to another state (a red state) files for custody of the children, gets it and then goes on to deliver daily beatings on his kids like he did to his wife. Sometimes he even gets child support from the maternal grandparents, the people he took the children away from!
If the wife wins the fight and her husband dies. She is arraigned on murder one charges, then a pile of republican "right to life" lobbying group is hired to put pressures on the prosecuting attorney to get the death penalty logged against the surviving woman. She is convicted sentenced 25 years to life and dies in prison from inadequate health care and recieves hate mail from abortion clinic terrorists in the last 6 months of her life.
So its not religion, but extremism, misgony.
And Iran rather blame the victim and all women when they can't protect the public from their main political platform.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Nazanin, 17, was sentenced to death by hanging for defending herself against three rapists.
A young girl who defended herself and her chastity against three male assailants who intended to kidnap and rape her causing injury to one of them who later died in hospital was condemned to death by hanging in an Islamic court in Iran. Nazanin who has seen no more than 17 Springs, all of which under the tyrannical rule of the Mullahs is now facing execution for trying to defend herself and her honor.
No where in the world and under no law self defense is considered to be a crime, but in the tyrannical mullacracy of Iran if a woman does not resist rape she will be stoned as adulterer and if she does she will be hanged.
Nazanin, this young innocent girl, was assaulted by three criminal men in the city of Karaj while walking home in the midday last March (2005). To defend herself she pulled out a knife and stabbed one of her assailants. The knife penetrated the ribs of her attacker who later died in the hospital. The attacks on women in Iran is so frequent that many are forced to carry a concealed weapon for self defense. Unfortunately the Islamic law does not even allow women the right to self defense.
Despite the fact that she had been acting in self defense, as shown by the evidences presented and the testimony of eyewitnesses, Nazanin was sentenced to death by hanging. In the last court hearing she told the judge “I only defended myself and the honor of my family”. She repeated this several times. Her words fell of deaf ears and the all male jury who like their misogynist prophet thought it is outrageous for a woman to stand for her rights and defend her dignity and honor, swiftly ordered her execution.
The travesty of justice in Islamic Republic of Iran is beyond description. Please send this news to all the newspapers big and small. Please do not allow this crime go unnoticed. This girl is an innocent flower in the hands of ferocious beasts. Do not allow them to nip her young life in the bud. Let us together provoke an outcry so loud that the ruling thugs in Iran can’t ignore.
These criminals have no shame and don’t give a hoot to world outcry and condemnation. Nonetheless it is our duty as humans not to remain silent.
Please ask your newspaper to report this story.
Please write to your MP and urge the Parliament in your country to condemn the Islamic regime of Iran for their misogyny, human rights violations and crime against humanity.
Please complain to the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner. tb-petitions@ohchr.org and ask them to pressure Iran to free Nazanin.
You have to state your name, nationality and address to the all the above if you want your complaint be taken seriously.
A few years ago the son of one of the Mullahs shot and killed a policeman. He walked free by giving a few thousands of dollars to the family of the victim.
“Evil triumphs when good people do nothing”.
Will you give a few minutes of your time to save this precious girl’s innocent life? She has not much time as executions in Iran are swift. Please show your humanity and act now.
An 18-year-old Iranian woman who killed a man that she said tried to rape her has been sentenced to death for murder, according to a press report on Saturday.
The woman identified only as Nazanin claimed self-defense during her trial after she stabbed a man to death in March 2005, the Etemad newspaper reported.
It said that Nazanin, who was 17 at the time, had been out with her niece and their boyfriends on a road west of Tehran when two men started harassing them and then tried to rape them after the boyfriends had run away.
"I committed murder to defend myself and my niece, I did not mean to kill him. I did not know what to do because nobody came to help us," the paper quoted her as saying during her trial.
In January 2005, after seven years of legal wrangling, the Iranian judiciary acquitted a woman who killed a senior police officer that she said had attempted to rape her on the Gulf island of Kish.
The European Union and international human rights groups have been pressuring Iran to stop executing those under age 18, and the UN General Assembly has adopted a non-binding resolution denouncing the practice of executing minors in Iran.
Iran's ultraconservative judiciary has responded to critics by saying that minors are not executed in the Islamic republic. It has also proposed a law that would prohibit the death penalty or flagellation for those who were minors at the time of the crimes.
According to Iranian law, a boy can be executed from the age of 15, and a girl from the age of nine. However, the execution is carried out when the offender is over 18 years old.
The Iranian press reported that a disabled man had been executed in public on Friday, the first of the year. At least 81 people were executed in Iran last year, according to an AFP tally based on press reports and witnesses. Amnesty International says that at least 159 people were executed in Iran in 2004.
Capital offenses in Iran include murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy, blasphemy, serious drug trafficking, repeated sodomy, adultery or prostitution, treason and espionage.
posted
Look at the difference in the two articles above.
While ME times is actually very lax and appears to be favoring the Iranian courts version of events.
The first article finds its an Islam issue and perpetuates alot of the cultural stereotypes.
This is what caught my attention the most in the ME times article:
According to Iranian law, a boy can be executed from the age of 15, and a girl from the age of nine. However, the execution is carried out when the offender is over 18 years old.
Not only is that Iranian law against Islam's Sharia laws, but also weighs a heavier punishment on a female.
Can you believe anyone could execute a 9 year old child?
This is one of the issues I have with the Final Prophet's (PBUH) marriage to Aycha, due to her age of marriage some idiots consider this the age of maturity.
Not fair!
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
How can any woman say she was "only defending herself" when she had not even been raped, and she is alive and he is dead? The fact of the matter is that she only said that she was attacking herself against three assailants, who had not even touched her incidentally, there were no apparent signs of any wounding to her person, and she is quite clearly lying through her teeth. She murdered a man she only "thought" was going to attack her. If every woman killed a man every time she "thought" such thoughts then there would be a huge rise in the murder figures.
So, it is quite unfair to pull the Islam card in this case, try the race card next time. You might have more success, my dears. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I do apologise I have inserted the word "attacking"where it should have been "defending" herself.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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Should a woman *wait* until she has been physically harmed before she is *allowed* (legally and/or morally) to defend herself? It's kind of alarming to read that....
How much blood exactly, or how much penetration, should she allow before she can stop an attack?
If some guy came after me in *any* threatening manner, I would do any and everything I could to defend myself.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: How can any woman say she was "only defending herself" when she had not even been raped, and she is alive and he is dead? The fact of the matter is that she only said that she was attacking herself against three assailants, who had not even touched her incidentally, there were no apparent signs of any wounding to her person, and she is quite clearly lying through her teeth. She murdered a man she only "thought" was going to attack her. If every woman killed a man every time she "thought" such thoughts then there would be a huge rise in the murder figures.
So, it is quite unfair to pull the Islam card in this case, try the race card next time. You might have more success, my dears.
well in islam if she there is no witness that she had killed him for another reason and the evidence support what she is saying she is free, whoever if the evidence doesn't support what she said she can't be senetenced to death but she should take some penelty according to the evidence and her claims, otherwise "i.e. a witness and evidence" she should be sentenced to death, and so is the way for a male there is no kind of differentiation here.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Islam as a religion has no business deciding what happens to the woman. Thats like the Methodist church deciding what happens to a criminal. This is really 'nutty' stuff. The civil authorities need to handle this case and Islam needs to worry about peoples souls , not what crimes they have committed.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: can I ask you Dalia a question what was told to you about Egypt before you come and how did you find Egypt, can u answer this frankly
I'm not sure I understand your question ...
I talked to people who lived in Egypt before I went to Cairo and if I remember correctly it was very much as I expected it to be – except for the harrassment issue which had not been mentioned to me and was much worse than I could have imagined. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I am not talking about the Egyptain people, can you tell me what is the impression of your deutch friends whom never visited Egypt when u told them you live in Egypt, I guess they wonder about the camels, don't they ? I only wanted to prove that the truth is different than what you hear, you will never thought of Egyptians the way u do unless u visited here or you have a very good describtion about the people behavior here. Dalia I wanna ask about the harrasments, don't u think thst may be it is because u don't understand us and u still puzzled by the Egyptian behavior, unlike euoropian's we can look at people in the streets, it seems very strange in europe to do this that every body I just gazed at smiles at me and says hello, I never meant anything but here in Egypt we can look at each other while walking I try not to do this anymore because i think it is a bad habbit of course I am just estimating, can u tell more about the harrassment you have seen
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: Dalia I wanna ask about the harrasments, don't u think thst may be it is because u don't understand us and u still puzzled by the Egyptian behavior, unlike euoropian's we can look at people in the streets, it seems very strange in europe to do this that every body I just gazed at smiles at me and says hello,
In otherwords in the west we are friendly in one manner, we say hello.
In Egypt the way of expressing friendliness is by asking a woman to share her loins?
I don't understand you bibo1978, not at all.
don't u think thst may be it is because u don't understand us and u still puzzled by the Egyptian behavior
This comment to me indicates that by being foreign she is forcing men to harrass her.
I am not puzzled by Egyptian behavior.
Dalia goes about her daily business as an unescourted obviously foreign woman in a city filled with young men who consider all western women fluzzies.
When I am in Cairo I am escourted by at least 4 relatives half of them male in-laws. No stupid prick is going to come up to me and make some misgonist "construction worker" come on. They know that if they do, their teeth will be punched out.
Because foreign women in Cairo don't have male relatives in Cairo to call upon to defend her honor, these amms consider her fair game.
So do foreign women need to 'adopt' macho hooligans like my male in-laws to avoid being harrassed?
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
you totally got me wrong sonomod when I even wasn't addressing you, what I have been told from some of my foriegn friend is that when they came egypt they simply was puzzled by our behavior becuase simply because they didn't understand the culture for example a friend of mine was puzzled with the praying becuase it starts by the prayer call then people start moving slowly and they started moving to do ablution and the start praying slowly .. it was difficult to understand unless u try .. don't you think .. that was my point. I didn't say a word about by being a foriegner she is forcing people to haress her, I didn't even do this implicitly .. I dunno from where did u got the idea ..!!!
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: you totally got me wrong sonomod when I even wasn't addressing you, what I have been told from some of my foriegn friend is that when they came egypt they simply was puzzled by our behavior becuase simply because they didn't understand the culture for example a friend of mine was puzzled with the praying becuase it starts by the prayer call then people start moving slowly and they started moving to do ablution and the start praying slowly .. it was difficult to understand unless u try .. don't you think .. that was my point. I didn't say a word about by being a foriegner she is forcing people to haress her, I didn't even do this implicitly .. I dunno from where did u got the idea ..!!!
You are being manipulative.
Dalia lived in Cairo for 2.5 years. She has a much better idea of the mindset of Egyptians than you could fathom.
You basically assumed Dalia's understanding of Egyptians. And gave her the usual rating of kaffirs being entirely ignorant.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: I am not talking about the Egyptain people, can you tell me what is the impression of your deutch friends whom never visited Egypt when u told them you live in Egypt, I guess they wonder about the camels, don't they ?
What the hell are you talking about???
Germans don't think that Egyptians still ride camels, how did you come up with this warped idea?
Usually when I tell people back home that I live in Cairo they are very interested and ask lots of question – and definitely not about camels, LOL! I'm usually asked what life in Cairo is like and about the political situation. Lately, for example, I've often been asked about the last elections in Egypt ...
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: only wanted to prove that the truth is different than what you hear, you will never thought of Egyptians the way u do unless u visited here or you have a very good describtion about the people behavior here.
Well, you just proved that it's obviously you who has preconceptions and twisted ideas about others!!!
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: Dalia I wanna ask about the harrasments, don't u think thst may be it is because u don't understand us and u still puzzled by the Egyptian behavior, unlike euoropian's we can look at people in the streets, it seems very strange in europe to do this that every body I just gazed at smiles at me and says hello, I never meant anything but here in Egypt we can look at each other while walking I try not to do this anymore because i think it is a bad habbit of course I am just estimating, can u tell more about the harrassment you have seen
Don't patronize me or belittle me, Bibo. I can differentiate very well between staring and harrassment. I get stared at all day long by men, women and children, and while you could call this harassment of some sort that's not what I meant,
By harrassment I mean obtrusive staring, remarks, sexual offers and sometimes being groped by strangers on the street.
quote:can u tell more about the harrassment you have seen
I've written about this so many times (for example here) that I don't want to repeat myself. Do a search on this board for "harrassment" or "sexual harrassment" and you will find that it's the number one problem for most foreign women living here.
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: what I have been told from some of my foriegn friend is that when they came egypt they simply was puzzled by our behavior becuase simply because they didn't understand the culture for example a friend of mine was puzzled with the praying
I'm not a tourist, bibo!
Yes, people are often puzzled or overwhelmed when they first come to Egypt which is not surprising because almost everything is completely different.
However, people who live here know at least the basics about Egyptian society. Expats in Cairo don't get puzzled when coming across people praying ... or by seeing a guy in a gallabeya holding a sheep while riding a donkey in the middle of Ahmed Orabi ...
posted
Whilst I agree entirely with Horemheb, one ought to take into consideration that this is not a crime that took place in Egypt, America or Tinbukto. It took place in Iran, perpetrated by an Iranian woman, born and bred in the country. She would have been fully conversant with the expections on her as a Muslimma and the requirements of an Islamic (Sharia) legal system.
If we take the view this she is being unfairly treated, then we are saying that Iran is not a civilised country, and that America and the rest of the world is!!
This woman, unfortunate though she is, knows fully that she lives in a theocracy whereby the clergy are the law, and everything else that is important. She is a citizen of that system, and plays by those rules, and is governed by those rules.
By any criteria, it is NOT necessary to defend onself by "UNREASONABLE FORCE" That is to say whichever society, "civilised" or not it is not a personal right to defend ones honour by killing another individual. She could quite easily have fought off her attacker, and there would have been signs of this struggle, and as she was a knife toting Mulima (instead of a gun-toting Dude in America)why did she not stick it in his leg, kick him in the groin or poke his eyes out with her fingernails BEFORE plunging a knife into his heart?
Why did she have to stick it straight into his heart knowing that it would kill him? The reason is obviously clear from the evidence available, she intended to kill him,and wanted to kill him. She was NOT merely defending herself (which she would have the right to do if reasonable force were used).
Even in America, she would not have got away with this, nor would she have got away with it in the UK. Remember Mr. Martin who shot and killed a would-be attacker? He was found guilty of manslaughter because he used "unreasonable force" He could not be found "unguilty" simply because there were reasonable grounds for his distress and fear at the time. If the UK had the death penalty, he might have been executed if this happened a few decades ago. The UK does not have the death penalty, but Iran does. Are people suggesting that Iran abolishes the death Penalty because they dont like to see offenders executed, and its OK to kill people that might injur one's "honour". Death and "honour" do not equate with one another I have to say. If "honour" were of paramount importance over death, then there would be an awful lot of dead people around.
Honour killings are frowned upon by the World Human Rights Watch. One does not have the right to kill for the sake of honour. At least Iran appears to be on track with the Human Rights Organisations on this issue, despite some confused criticisms in the previous posts, and for once they appear to be doing the right thing!! It seems that Iran is damned if they do and damned if they dont.
Lets just be honest and say that the criticism of Iran to impose this sentence on a woman is a FEMINIST argument. If it were a man sentenced for the same offence (viz defending "his" honour) the boot would be on the other foot - would it not???? Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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well Dalia you are not the only german here, I have a german friend and he is a working in a highly rated industrial company in alexandria, he is living in egypt for more than two years now and he had told me that people think this way about Egypt back at his home, they don't even believe that we have any industrial technology actually this man was an ex-employee of intercontenential the tyre manfacturers company, anyhow the man confirmed to me that people where amazed back in Bavaria when he told them that in Egypt they have some kind of urban lifestyle, this man barely contact Egyptains outside work frame, but he told me that he didn't think of Egypt the way it is, and he still don't understand many of our behaviors and he told me that the one thing he likes most is driving because in egypt he can do things that would be putten to jail if he do the same back in Germany.. I am not talking out of no where .. there were a few foriegners that I met and have an idea of Egyptian people and there habits and sometimes they where staying here for a longtime more than six months and still don't know anything because they don't want to mingle or they are afriad from us believe it or not, some did know about the situation here and they were either living here for a long time and have mingled with people or they were from some specific countries like Greece or Italy, I dunno why are u upset from what I have said, so what, you know everything about Egypt more than I do, where is the problem I truely was addressing a situation I had seen and am a witness of .. I only asked you so that you might tell me that you know better like your second post, just I wanted to figure out how it is like with you. I read the previously posts and I am sorry for this behavior and as a man, but I feel ashame of that truely, anyhow I wanna ask didn't you met a person whom never harassed you? do u get harassements everyday ? one more thing didn't u get harassments outside Egypt "back in germany" or in other country that you have visited .. Are u dealing well now with such situations?
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: well Dalia you are not the only german here, I have a german friend and he is a working in a highly rated industrial company in alexandria, he is living in egypt for more than two years now and he had told me that people think this way about Egypt back at his home, they don't even believe that we have any industrial technology actually this man was an ex-employee of intercontenential the tyre manfacturers company, anyhow the man confirmed to me that people where amazed back in Bavaria when he told them that in Egypt they have some kind of urban lifestyle, this man barely contact Egyptains outside work frame, but he told me that he didn't think of Egypt the way it is, and he still don't understand many of our behaviors and he told me that the one thing he likes most is driving because in egypt he can do things that would be putten to jail if he do the same back in Germany.. I am not talking out of no where .. there were a few foriegners that I met and have an idea of Egyptian people and there habits and sometimes they where staying here for a longtime more than six months and still don't know anything because they don't want to mingle or they are afriad from us believe it or not, some did know about the situation here and they were either living here for a long time and have mingled with people or they were from some specific countries like Greece or Italy, I dunno why are u upset from what I have said, so what, you know everything about Egypt more than I do, where is the problem I truely was addressing a situation I had seen and am a witness of .. I only asked you so that you might tell me that you know better like your second post, just I wanted to figure out how it is like with you. I read the previously posts and I am sorry for this behavior and as a man, but I feel ashame of that truely, anyhow I wanna ask didn't you met a person whom never harassed you? do u get harassements everyday ? one more thing didn't u get harassments outside Egypt "back in germany" or in other country that you have visited .. Are u dealing well now with such situations?
bavaria?
Are you sure that is still a place?
I see it all the time on my mother's antique plates.
I thought modernity lay waste to a name like Bavaria.
*Just kidding Germans. Bavaria is a name known from quality craftmanship. Hikes the price and value of antiques. But its still very preserved in German culture in the here and now.
Actually I wonder how many Turks are making the Bavarian collectables that my grandchild will collect in future years....... Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: If we take the view this she is being unfairly treated, then we are saying that Iran is not a civilised country, and that America and the rest of the world is!!
I don't think that is what it means if we say she's being unfairly treated. America has the death penalty and I certainly don't agree with that. I have worked for years in the criminal justice system here, and know full well the law is not always applied fairly.
I was thinking in more human terms -- that it is human nature to defend yourself from attack.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: By any criteria, it is NOT necessary to defend onself by "UNREASONABLE FORCE" That is to say whichever society, "civilised" or not it is not a personal right to defend ones honour by killing another individual. !!
What's the definition of unreasonable force? Here in the US, because a woman is generally not as strong physically, she is not legally obligated to respond with *like force* when her attacker is a male (and stronger). Fists against fists in this situation would not do the woman any good.
Self-defense courses here in the US teach a woman if a man tries to rape her to thrust her car keys in his eyes, or in his throat. Or to hit him full force with the palm of her hand on his nose, driving that bone into his brain. We are taught to do anything we can to stop an attack. If a woman does something like that, and does it hard enough, there's definitely a chance she could kill the guy.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Why did she have to stick it straight into his heart knowing that it would kill him? The reason is obviously clear from the evidence available, she intended to kill him,and wanted to kill him. She was NOT merely defending herself (which she would have the right to do if reasonable force were used).
Well, in an attack situation, unless we are professional fighters, I don't think we'd really *know* what we'd do, how fear would control us, or anger, or the desire to protect a relative. I also don't think we as readers have enough evidence to summarily judge her actions.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: and its OK to kill people that might injur one's "honour". Death and "honour" do not equate with one another I have to say.
Did I miss the part where she stopped the attack and asked him to answer her under oath whether his intent was *merely* rape or was he going to kill her too? If someone is coming at you violently, what do you do?
quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Lets just be honest and say that the criticism of Iran to impose this sentence on a woman is a FEMINIST argument. If it were a man sentenced for the same offence (viz defending "his" honour) the boot would be on the other foot - would it not????
I think getting raped is *much* more than a mere attack on honor. It is a horrible violent attack that scars victims emotionally for life, sometimes physically for life. And in that culture, the woman seems to suffer even more for being the victim of that particular crime. I don't think we should hang on the word *honor* just because a 17 year old used it to defend her actions.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Please complain to the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner tb-petitions@ohchr.org and ask them to pressure Iran to free Nazanin.
You have to state your name, nationality and address to the all the above if you want your complaint be taken seriously. ============================
I am going to write a letter today and I will send it to the above address. If anything else I can do, please let me know. To whom else can I send it? What else we can do?
Talk is cheap. Instead of arguing, talking, analyzing, siding with one person or another, this young Iranian woman is waiting for her final days. It is our duty to help her in the way we can help. We know the truth. This is not the first case of cruelty and injustices against women all over the world. No matter what - laws for females were not applied justly, in your heart you all know that! She is the victim of that injustice.
I would like to know who else is interested to write the letter, we must do something and act, we can't afford to be ignorant. Nothing will change if we don't act we must fight for women's rights all over the world.
If you intend to write a letter, please let me know. I am just curious to see how many people are willing to do something and help another human being.
Posts: 989 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I am appalled to hear about a 17-year-old Iranian woman, named Nazanin, who was recently sentenced to death for merely protecting herself. Nazanin is a peaceful Iranian citizen who, along with her niece, was about to be assaulted by a group of misogynists who know no mercy. She stabbed one of the men's hand, but they still attempted to rape her. Eventually, she stabbed one of them in the ribs, which resulted in his death.
Her right to defend herself from sick rapists was irrelevant to the court. The reason for this is unknown to me and beyond any human comprehension. Why should the victim be punished? This is immoral. This is sick. This is frustrating. This is illogical.
For more information on this matter, please visit:
The international media does not seem to be interested in this matter. They want to entertain, not inform, and it’s not longer a dirty little secret. They want to inform people about stolen baby penguins, KFC chicken abuses and a bird that attempted to destroy a domino set being killed.
Respected Commissioner of Human Rights:
I'm not necessarily a pro-Bush, anti-Muslim person, and even if I am, it is irrelevant here. What I can assure you of is that I am a soldier of truth.
Yes, the Guantánamo prison and the Iraqi war are abuses of human rights. People I directly know have been affected by US foreign policy. However, please do not forget Nazanin either. Cases like hers should make everyone, regardless of faith or political stance, stand together as a single humanity against evil. We should not shake our heads and do nothing about it. I urge you to do all you can to pressure Iran from executing Nazanin. I promise you that it can be done, and I am willing to do everything in my power to help her and others sharing her plight.
With all due respect, Respected Commissioner, may I ask what you would do if you had a daughter placed in this situation? Would you have not done all what was in your power to save her from this injustice? The very thought of seeing my daughter (should I have one someday) treated this way horrifies me.
We humans have a tendency to be selfish and only think of our own loved ones. However, as the Commissioner of Human Rights, you have placed yourself in an important position that requires great responsibility. This is why I am sure you will take swift courses of action with regards to Nazanin's case.
Kind sir, I beg of you to do all you can to stop this insanity. This is not a request. I’m pleading from the bottom of my heart.
Thank you kindly for your time.
(This is a letter sent to the OHCHR by one reader)
Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: I have a german friend and he is a working in a highly rated industrial company in alexandria, he is living in egypt for more than two years now and he had told me that people think this way about Egypt back at his home, they don't even believe that we have any industrial technology actually this man was an ex-employee of intercontenential the tyre manfacturers company, anyhow the man confirmed to me that people where amazed back in Bavaria when he told them that in Egypt they have some kind of urban lifestyle, this man barely contact Egyptains outside work frame, but he told me that he didn't think of Egypt the way it is, and he still don't understand many of our behaviors and he told me that the one thing he likes most is driving because in egypt he can do things that would be putten to jail if he do the same back in Germany..
I am not talking out of no where .. there were a few foriegners that I met and have an idea of Egyptian people and there habits and sometimes they where staying here for a longtime more than six months and still don't know anything because they don't want to mingle or they are afriad from us believe it or not, some did know about the situation here and they were either living here for a long time and have mingled with people or they were from some specific countries like Greece or Italy
I usually stay clear of expats like this – people who have been sent to Egypt by their companies, enjoy the relatively luxurious lifestyle they can have here and show very little interest in Egypt and Egyptians. I can't relate to people who go to live in a country and don't bother to learn the language and have no interest in getting immersed in the culture.
As for Bavaria ... many people there live in the countryside and are in general more conservative than in other parts of Germany, so it's very well possible that people your friend talked to didn't know that much about Egypt. (I'm generalizing here, of course, so I hope no Bavarians reading this will feel offended. )
quote:I read the previously posts and I am sorry for this behavior and as a man, but I feel ashame of that truely, anyhow I wanna ask didn't you met a person whom never harassed you?
Of course I have, otherwise I wouldn't have decided to stay in Cairo. People I work or hang out with don't engage in this kind of behaviour towards women; my male Egyptian friends are upset and ashamed at the behaviour of some of their countrymen as well.
quote:do u get harassements everyday ?
Almost every day. Some days I'm lucky and only get one or two comments, but on some days it's very annoying.
quote:one more thing didn't u get harassments outside Egypt "back in germany" or in other country that you have visited .. Are u dealing well now with such situations?
No, I never got sexually harassed on the street in Germany, this kind of behaviour is socially unacceptable there.
As for other countries – I did occasionally get comments on the street when I lived in Manhattan but they were not as sleazy as in Cairo and not as derogatory.
I got harrassed quite a lot in Tunisia and Morocco but in Egypt it was worst. I also heard from friends who extensively travelled around the Middle East that they found the harassment to be worst in Egypt. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ~Sharon Stone~: Please complain to the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner tb-petitions@ohchr.org and ask them to pressure Iran to free Nazanin.
You have to state your name, nationality and address to the all the above if you want your complaint be taken seriously. ============================
Katajun Amirpur portrays some of the leading personalities of a new Islamic feminism in Iran. An informative article taken from a 1999 issue of the German academic magazine "Orient".
Young Iranian woman The Islamic Republic of Iran does not have a reputation as a particularly women-friendy country. But when a religious Islamic government took over power in 1979, many laws instated during the Shah's rule granting women equal rights were abolished.
A new role for Islamic women was propagated which argued that rather than equality, the new Islamic woman preferred a position subordinate to men. Women who thought differently were denigrated as westernized and unreligious.
An emancipatory women's movement nonetheless emerged, which was based on Islamic arguments for equality. Shortly after the revolution, for example, Shahin Tabataba'i, who emerged as the official representative of Iranian women at international conferences, wrote articles concerning the role of women.
She argued for a new interpretation of Koran verses concerning women. In the early years of the movement, women's arguments for equality did not go as far as they do today; a real strengthening of the Islamic emancipation movement has only occurred in recent years.
But contrary to popular opinion, women were not completely without influence following the revolution. They were never excluded from gainful employment, and employment was generally considered a prerequisite to the demand for political rights because this ensured women's economic independence from men.
In addition, no significant change in the quality of their education was found. As Moghadam has shown, the continued participation of women in the public sphere undermined the idea of a theocratic and male-dominated society.
Women in Teheran demonstrating in favour of Khatami In the early years, however, many women accepted legal provisions that cemented their inequality, despite the economic and intellectual possibilities available to them to defend against such measures.
And the state maintained an attitude summed up by the Tehran Cultural Studies and Research Institute as follows: "Obviously, the apparent and quantitative equality is not the only goal of socio-cultural advancement of women. After the Islamic revolution in Iran, the attempt to obtain quantitative equality of women with men in educational centers, offices and factories, in and of itself, is no longer the criterion of progress."
But women of the 1990s who argue for emancipation from within Islamic traditions expect more than this. They demand the same rights as men, and they do not believe that nature has granted women a status subordinate to men.
For Islamic feminists, the reasons for women's inequality today are not to be found in the Koran, but in the fact that men have thus far interpreted the Koran. And men's interpretation of the Koran has served their own interests. Islamic feminists thus demand a new interpretation.
Shahla Sherkat is the editor-in-chief of Zanan, the most important Iranian women's journal. Sherkat is a 42-year-old psychologist who worked for the partly state-funded journal "Zan-e ruz" from 1980 until 1990, when she was dismissed due to differences with the editors of that publication.
They could not agree on how to address gender-specific topics. She founded her own journal because she believed that women like herself could create a new movement in Iranian society. Zanan, first published in February of 1991, addresses women's issues exclusively because, according to Sherkat, there are so many problems specific to women that no space remains for other topics.
In contrast to most other women's journals in Iran, Zanan's is an independent voice; it is not tied to the state or to any specific political fraction, and the women who publish it have no family ties to important public figures.
In her journal, Sherkat publishes articles expressing the view that it is not the Koran that prevents women from gaining a better legal status, but instead patriarchal common law.
Journal articles address laws concerning divorce, marriage, and inheritance, unequal blood-money (diye), the political rights of women, their role in spreading Islam, the permission women need from their husbands to travel, the women candidates for Parliament in March 1996 and the participation of women in the election, the marriage of minors, and the question of whether women can become president.
Zanan publishes comprehensive reports on women ministers of state and the one woman cabinet member in Iran. Shahla Sherkat organizes roundtables to discuss the legal disadvantages of women, and Zanan's "legal advisor," the lawyer Mehrangiz Kar, instructs readers on their rights in her column entitled "Amuzesh-e hoquq-e zan" (Lessons on the Rights of Women). The journal also attends to the topic of "What have we accomplished this year?" in an annual report.
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I think that they should punished the guy that tried to rape her. This is what bothers me about the Middle East is that a woman gets punished for everything and the man always looks like a rose and does not get punished. A woman gets raped, she gets killed, and if she defends herself, she gets killed. Either way, she can't win! What is she to do, just let a man rape her, not be there, or defend or herself? Geez! Cut the women some slack!
Posts: 935 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Mike, It is really not funny when a girl goes through this. Her life is on the line, so it's really not good to make jokes about this.
Posts: 935 | Registered: Mar 2006
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concernedforwomen , aside from carpet bombing iran, there's not much else iran is good for except humor.
I mean, I suppose kim jongs north korea's nightmare of experimenting on people, might be slightly ahead on the countries hell bent for hades list, but iran runs a close second.
-------------------- The ground at Calvary's Cross is level Posts: 1172 | Registered: Apr 2006
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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You can say that again Mike!!
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