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This is a digitally colorized, marker-ink portrait of Juba al-Mauri, who is one of the characters from my novelette The Sultan of Finback Isle. Hailing from the mountainous highlands of Morocco, he belongs to an ancient ethnic group in the area known as the Mauri, whose name would evolve into our term “Moorish”. Although he wants more than anything else to help his own decimated people survive in the modern age, his search for profit has brought him into the employment of the story’s antagonist Ibrahim Fawal, a Moroccan-American Chief of Police in Los Angeles who is of Arabic ethnicity and treats Juba with more than a slight dabble of racial prejudice. Also, Juba’s very good with his shotgun, the stock (handle) of which you can see sticking out from behind his back here.
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A mother Tyrannosaurus rex escorts her hatchlings in her jaws through the misty jungle of Late Cretaceous North America, circa 67 million years ago. Much like a mother crocodile, she is every bit as gentle and doting a parent as she is a ferocious apex predator.
I’ve always been partial to the idea of tyrannosaurids and other theropod dinosaurs taking good care of their young, as portrayed in The Lost World: Jurassic Park for example. Not only would it be consistent with their living relatives, birds and crocodilians, but it gives their personalities more dimension than simply having them be savage brutes all the time.
By the way, please do check out the different coloring technique I used for this artwork. Normally I use strong black outlines like you would see in most comic books, but this time I wanted outlines that “blended” in better with the colors, which I achieved by lowering the opacity of my outline (or “inks”) layer halfway.
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It is 218 BC during the Second Punic War, and the army of Carthage under Hannibal Barca is undertaking their arduous trek through the Alps into Italy where the Roman menace awaits. Among the Carthaginian army's most remarkable assets are its African war elephants, descended from a population residing along the scrubby coastline of northwestern Africa that will ultimately become extirpated sometime after the Romans seize control of the region from Carthage.
If you're wondering why the soldiers here are portrayed with different skin colors, that's because they're supposed to be intermixed between Carthage's Phoenician founders from the area of modern Lebanon and native Africans. The guys driving the elephants would be native recruits. At the height of its power, Carthage's empire would include not only the Northwest African coast but also several islands in the Mediterranean as well as the southern part of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal).
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This character’s heritage would be based on a variety of ethnic groups residing in the Upper Nile Basin of South Sudan, many of which subsist on cattle husbandry and horticulture as part of their traditional way of life. One example of the cultures I looked to for inspiration was the Shilluk (or Chollo), whose kingdom spread along the White Nile beginning in the 16th century under the leadership of the demigod-like prophet Nyikang. Other nations in the Upper Nile region include those of the Dinka, Nuer, Zande, and Acholi peoples.
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This sketchy portrait represents a woman of the Jomon culture, which occupied Japan in prehistoric times until 300 BC. The people seem to have subsisted as hunter-gatherers with a particularly fondness for fish and other seafood, the abundance of which allowed them to settle down in permanent villages. They even had time to make pottery with elaborate patterns and weave cloth made from the bark of the mulberry tree. In the end, however, their culture ended up subsumed by that of the Yayoi people, the latter most probably evolving into modern ethnic Japanese.
I was actually a little unsure how dark-skinned I should make the Jomon woman in this sketch. Apparently, DNA extracted from one 3,800-year-old Jomon female specimen showed she had “moderately dark” skin and thin “curly” or “frizzy” hair, both characteristics seldom associated with modern Japanese, but then the sculpted reconstruction they did of her made her look more like a standard Japanese woman in terms of complexion and hair texture. This depiction is therefore based more on how the woman’s probable appearance was described in the text of these reports.
UPDATE: Here's a colored version with a skin tone and overall appearance that is supposed to be intermediate between the Negrito and Melanesian people on the one hand and the "Sundadont" peoples of Southeast Asia on the other.
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If common sense hadn't told you already, it is generally not a good idea to pet a raptor without their permission. The same could be said of anyone who wears this design on their shirt!
Come to think of it, a shirt design like this could come in handy for sending a much-needed message against sexual assault.
You can purchase your own shirt with this design here.
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This prehistoric warrior is wielding a knife fashioned from a big predator’s serrated tooth. It may appear like primitive weaponry, but you still wouldn’t want to have her stabbing you with it.
Some of the inspiration for this came from the character of Nat-ul, the female love interest in Edgar Rice Burroughs’s prehistoric fantasy novel "The Eternal Lover". Despite the unabashedly sexist period in which the story would have been written, Nat-ul in it is quite formidable with her knife (for example, early on she uses it to slay one of her male abductors).
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Our heroine lies perched atop a rocky precipice overlooking a jungle-swathed valley, gazing down to inspect the treacherous terrain she is about to claim as her new hunting ground.
The pterosaur soaring overhead would be a fictional species I created for this illustration, since it would obviously be taking place in a fantasy world.
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The Egyptian Queen Nefertari is shakin' it!
I don't plan on getting too deep into "Inktober" this year, as many of my black marker pens have dried up over the years, but I still wanted to play with ink at least once this month.
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Siamraptor suwati prowls across a fallen log “bridge” overhanging a river in the jungle of Early Cretaceous Southeast Asia between 125 and 113 million years ago. Named for being uncovered in Thailand (once Siam), Siamraptor was not a “raptor” like Velociraptor but rather one of the carcharodontosaurs, the same group of meat-eating dinosaurs as Giganotosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus. Nonetheless, it would have grown significantly smaller than either of those dinosaurs, with its body length being estimated at twenty-six feet (or eight meters).
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This is my depiction of Bodhidharma, an Indian monk from the 5-6th century AD who is credited with introducing the Chan (or Zen) tradition of Buddhism to China. He can also be considered the founder of the martial arts school known as Shaolin Kungfu, since it was he who began the Shaolin monks’ training to improve their physical as well as mental conditions. In Chinese, Bodhidharma is also known by the name Putidamo.
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This is my big fan art for Genndy Tartakovsky’s new animated series Primal, the first five episodes of which premiered on the week of October 7th in 2019. These two would be the protagonists Spear and Fang, who are respectively a caveman and a dinosaur who are each the last surviving members of their family. Together, they must struggle to survive in a harsh prehistoric fantasy world populated with a variety of hostile creatures and beings. It’s been an intense first season and I’m eager to see the second as soon as it comes out!
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In the hills of North Africa, within sight of the Atlas Mountains, a Numidian horseman squares off against a Roman legionary. I didn’t have any particular historical war in mind when I drew this, but confrontations like this must have taken place in abundance during the Jugurthine War (named after the Numidian king Jugurtha) between 112 and 106 BC.
In retrospect, I think I drew the Roman guy’s shield too small, but I sorta like the posing here nonetheless.
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I wanted to draw something to celebrate Halloween (even though it’s not really my favorite major holiday), so I created this necromancer character. She came out awfully seductive for someone whose line of work involves raising the dead.
Fun fact: the concept of the zombie comes from Haitian folklore. Originally they were simply corpses reanimated through witchcraft, although raising zombies is not an official practice of the Haitian Vodou faith. I don’t think they were supposed to eat brains or other pieces of human flesh like modern pop-culture zombies though.
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This Egyptian Pharaoh is decked out for the battlefield, with his attire including the blue khepresh crown of war and a cuirass of bronze scale armor. Most ancient Egyptian warriors would have worn little armor due to the hot climate of their homeland, but the Pharaohs themselves were among the few exceptions to that rule as they led their armies into battle.
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On the savannas of East Africa circa 200,000 years ago, an early Homo sapiens woman stands off against a hungry descendent of the saber-toothed cat Machairodus kabir. Which will prevail in this confrontation? The brute strength and agility of the big feline, or good ol’ human ingenuity?
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This African-American woman is balancing herself during a yoga session. Is she simply meditating, or could she be warming up for her martial arts practice?
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This would be a woman from ancient Numidia, a kingdom in North Africa that straddled the area between northeastern Algeria and western Tunisia. I wanted her design to mix elements of native African culture with that of the “classical” Mediterranean cultures the Numidians would have interacted with, such as the Greeks, Romans, and Phoenicians. That’s why she has both a Greek-style chiton and a hairstyle inspired by those of Punu women from the Central African country of Gabon.
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Deep in the jungle, our heroine is fighting her way out of the coiling clutches of a hungry giant python.
The theme of a woman struggling against a giant snake has become almost a classic one in the jungle-girl genre of art, so I wanted to do my own take on it. Unlike some of the women in other artists’ portrayals, however, my woman is more than capable of fending the ophidian titan off!
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In Greek mythology, Europa was a princess from the Phoenician city of Sidon (in what is now Lebanon), although her father Agenor was of Egyptian origin and her mother Telephassa (or alternately Argiope) was a daughter of the god of the Nile. While Europa and her maidens were out gathering flowers by the sea, the god Zeus appeared to her as a beautiful white bull who had her ride him over to the island of Crete, where together they had three sons (one of whom would become King Minos, the man who commissioned the infamous Minotaur's Labyrinth).
As you might be able to guess, the myth of Europa is the source of our name for the subcontinent of Europe (as well as one of the planet Jupiter's moons)...which is ironic since neither of her parents were supposed to be of European descent! Ah, well, that's Greek mythology for you.
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This portrait would depict a princess from the city of Ife (or Ile-Ife), which was founded sometime before the 11th century AD and retains sacred significance to the Yoruba people of Nigeria. Her hairstyle is drawn from one of the terracotta sculptures recovered from this city.
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This feisty young princess wouldn't be content idling around her parent's palace and looking pretty. Instead, she'd rather go on daring adventures with a big sword for protection.
The sword, by the way, is inspired by a 17th century design from the kingdom of Benin, located in what is now Nigeria (not to be confused with the modern nation called Benin, which has territory overlapping that of a separate West African kingdom called Dahomey).
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why do you portray north africans as niger-congo people ? do you have any genetic or historical evidence for this ? Or it's just for fun (i hope) ?
Posts: 218 | From: Europe | Registered: Jun 2019
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: why do you portray north africans as niger-congo people ? do you have any genetic or historical evidence for this ? Or it's just for fun (i hope)?
Genetic Evidence
"North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia"
Source: On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier
"In this study we analyzed 295 unrelated Berber-speaking men from northern, central, and southern Morocco to characterize frequency of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and to refine the phylogeny of its subclades: E1b1b1b1-M107, E1b1b1b2-M183, and E1b1b1b2a-M165. For this purpose, we typed four biallelic polymorphisms: M81, M107, M183, and M165.A large majority of the Berber-speaking male lineages belonged to the Y-chromosomal E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup. The frequency ranged from 79.1% to 98.5% in all localities sampled. E1b1b1b2-M183 was the most dominant subclade in our samples, ranging from 65.1% to 83.1%. In contrast, the E1b1b1b1-M107 and E1b1b1b2a-M165 subclades were not found in our samples. Our results suggest a predominance of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup among Moroccan Berber-speaking males with a decreasing gradient from south to north."
Source: Phylogeography of E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and analysis of its subclades in Morocco
Anthropological Evidence
"The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998)."
"Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000)."
Source: The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
"On the remains of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians: "The Phoenicians had nothing in common with the official Jewish type: brachycephal, aquiline or Hittite nose, and so on [...] skulls presumably Phoenician, have been found west of Syracuse [...] but these skulls are dolichocephalic and proganthous, with Negroid affinities"
"Other bones discovered in Punic Carthage, and housed in the Lavigerie Museum, come from personages found in special sarcophagi and probably belonging to the Carthaginian elite. Almost all the skulls are dolichocephalic."
Source: Source: Eugene Pittard "Les races et L' histoire."
"The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors"
Source: Charles Picard "Daily Life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal"
"The race which gave birth to the Moroccans can be no other than the African negroes because the same black type [...] is found all the way to Senegal upon the right bank of the river without counting that it has been recognized in various parts of the Sahara [...] and from there comes black Moors who still have thick lips as a result of negro descent and not from intermixture [...] As to the white, bronze, or dark Moors, they are no other than the near relations of black Moors with whom they form the varieties of the same race; and as one can also see among the Europeans, blondes, brunettes, and chestnuts, in the midst of the same population so one may see Moroccans of every color in the same agglomeration without it being a question of their being real mulattos."
Source: “Sur des races noires indigènes qui existaient anciennement dans l’afrique septentrionale”
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste."
Source: (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990)
Documented Evidence
"North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India
"Mauri, the inhabitants of Mauritania. This name is derived from their black complexion"
Source: A classical dictionary: containing a copious account of all proper names mentioned in ancient authors, with the value of coins, weights, and measures used among the Greeks and Romans, and a chronological table (1822) by John Lemprière
Coat of Arms of Sardinia. As with the heraldry of families named with variants of Mori or Moor, several countries in Europe have flags and coat of arms with the heads of Moors on them. Military historian, Yaacov Lev in the article , “Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt” (1987) wrote of Nasir Khusroes of the 11th century who speaks of the "20,000" Masmuda men that made up part of the Fatimid troops in Egypt in his time saying, “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords”
Source: (from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365)
"The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and the Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, the Moors, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China (Southeast Asia), and Masin, the islands in the seas between China (Southeast Asia) and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China (Southeast Asia), Kabul, and those shores."
Source: Al-Jahiz (776-869): Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh (Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites)
“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib
Source: Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178
"Now the real fact, the fact which dispenses with all hypothesis, is this: the Berbers are the children of Canaan, the son of Ham, son of Noah." Down this line came Berr who had two sons, Baranis and Madghis al-Abtar. All Berber tribes descended from one or the other of these brothers and were classified as either Baranes or Botr"
Source: Histoire I, 173–185
Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” also translated "a Moor with his crisp hair"
Source: Book 6 of "The Epigrams"
"Long ago, after Noah, Blacks inhabited our country: they went up as far as Morocco until from Syria came the first white conquerors: they were light skinned men with grey eyes."
Source: La tradition chez les Ida Aghzeinbou
Posts: 340 | From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2019
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
I wouldn't waste too much breath on Nass. Suffice to say, he's one of the Amazigh nationalist trolls from ForumBiodiversity. I have elected to ignore him here.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep: @Ballberith
I wouldn't waste too much breath on Nass. Suffice to say, he's one of the Amazigh nationalist trolls from ForumBiodiversity. I have elected to ignore him here.
Oh, don't worry! I am more accustomed to dealing with people like him. I just wanted to see how he responds to all of this irrefutable evidence, if you get what I mean. Posts: 340 | From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2019
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Nassbean
Banned by a New World Black
Member # 23084
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: why do you portray north africans as niger-congo people ? do you have any genetic or historical evidence for this ? Or it's just for fun (i hope)?
Genetic Evidence
North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia
Source: On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier
In this study we analyzed 295 unrelated Berber-speaking men from northern, central, and southern Morocco to characterize frequency of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and to refine the phylogeny of its subclades: E1b1b1b1-M107, E1b1b1b2-M183, and E1b1b1b2a-M165. For this purpose, we typed four biallelic polymorphisms: M81, M107, M183, and M165.A large majority of the Berber-speaking male lineages belonged to the Y-chromosomal E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup. The frequency ranged from 79.1% to 98.5% in all localities sampled. E1b1b1b2-M183 was the most dominant subclade in our samples, ranging from 65.1% to 83.1%. In contrast, the E1b1b1b1-M107 and E1b1b1b2a-M165 subclades were not found in our samples. Our results suggest a predominance of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup among Moroccan Berber-speaking males with a decreasing gradient from south to north.
Source: Phylogeography of E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and analysis of its subclades in Morocco
Anthropological Evidence
The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).
Source: The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
On the remains of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians: "The Phoenicians had nothing in common with the official Jewish type: brachycephal, aquiline or Hittite nose, and so on [...] skulls presumably Phoenician, have been found west of Syracuse [...] but these skulls are dolichocephalic and proganthous, with Negroid affinities
"Other bones discovered in Punic Carthage, and housed in the Lavigerie Museum, come from personages found in special sarcophagi and probably belonging to the Carthaginian elite. Almost all the skulls are dolichocephalic."
Source: Source: Eugene Pittard "Les races et L' histoire."
"The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors"
Source: Charles Picard "Daily Life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal"
"The race which gave birth to the Moroccans can be no other than the African negroes because the same black type [...] is found all the way to Senegal upon the right bank of the river without counting that it has been recognized in various parts of the Sahara [...] and from there comes black Moors who still have thick lips as a result of negro descent and not from intermixture [...] As to the white, bronze, or dark Moors, they are no other than the near relations of black Moors with whom they form the varieties of the same race; and as one can also see among the Europeans, blondes, brunettes, and chestnuts, in the midst of the same population so one may see Moroccans of every color in the same agglomeration without it being a question of their being real mulattos."
Source: “Sur des races noires indigènes qui existaient anciennement dans l’afrique septentrionale”
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste."
Source: (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990)
Documented Evidence
"North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India
Mauri, the inhabitants of Mauritania. This name is derived from their black complexion
Source: A classical dictionary: containing a copious account of all proper names mentioned in ancient authors, with the value of coins, weights, and measures used among the Greeks and Romans, and a chronological table (1822) by John Lemprière
Coat of Arms of Sardinia. As with the heraldry of families named with variants of Mori or Moor, several countries in Europe have flags and coat of arms with the heads of Moors on them. Military historian, Yaacov Lev in the article , “Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt” (1987) wrote of Nasir Khusroes of the 11th century who speaks of the "20,000" Masmuda men that made up part of the Fatimid troops in Egypt in his time saying, “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords”
Source: (from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365)
"The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and the Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, the Moors, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China (Southeast Asia), and Masin, the islands in the seas between China (Southeast Asia) and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China (Southeast Asia), Kabul, and those shores."
Source: Al-Jahiz (776-869): Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh (Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites)
“Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib
Source: Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178
"Now the real fact, the fact which dispenses with all hypothesis, is this: the Berbers are the children of Canaan, the son of Ham, son of Noah." Down this line came Berr who had two sons, Baranis and Madghis al-Abtar. All Berber tribes descended from one or the other of these brothers and were classified as either Baranes or Botr
Source: Histoire I, 173–185
1st c. A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” also translated "a Moor with his crisp hair"
Source: Book 6 of "The Epigrams"
Long ago, after Noah, Blacks inhabited our country: they went up as far as Morocco until from Syria came the first white conquerors: they were light skinned men with grey eyes.
Source: La tradition chez les Ida Aghzeinbou
You don't even understand what you're posting ....smh : first of all aterians are a middle and upper paleolithic people and they have never been berbers or part of the berber genome at their time there were "black" populations all over the world so taking them to prove that NAs were black is a weak argument I asked for "ancient berbers" (so when history began) not extremely old populations. E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup is a berber haplogroup specific of north africa and most of modern north africans have this haplogroup ....so what's your point ? thanks for contradicting yourself.
Again you show here your ignorance because genetically iberomaurusians are not considered as a black population :
quote:Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources.
and guess what ? a recent study has just proved that there is a genetic continuity since the iberomaurusian era :
quote:An international team of scientists has for the first time performed an analysis of the complete genome of the population of North Africa. They have identified a small genetic imprint of the inhabitants of the region in Palaeolithic times, thus ruling out the theory that recent migrations from other regions completely erased the genetic traces of ancient North Africans The study was led by David Comas, principal investigator at UPF and at the Institute of Evolutionary Biology (IBE: CSIC-UPF) and it has been published in the journal Current Biology." “ We see that the current populations of North Africa are the result of this replacement but we detect small traces of this continuity from Palaeolithic times, i.e., total replacement did not take place in the populations of North Africa”, reveals David Comas, full professor of Biological Anthropology at the Department of Experimental and Health Sciences (DCEXS) at UPF. “We do not know whether the first settlers 300,000 years ago are their ancestors, but we do detect imprints of this continuity at least since Palaeolithic times, since 15,000 years ago or more” he adds
plenty of NAs today are almost half iberomaurusian as you can see here (just one example because the number of pics are limited here) :
none of them look black or biracial.
Now about these carthaginians ...lmao wtf is that your source is an old book from 1924 (https://www.amazon.fr/races-lhistoire-PITTARD-Eugene/dp/B003WVFYUU) and dolichocephalic isn't a specific negroid trait it's found all over the world. Reality about carthaginians is this :
Also in ancient times the word "Aethiops" was used by greco-roman scholars to describe any black population and they never used it for north africans.
About moroccans I didn't find any information about your source and I'm a french speaker...probably a very old and biased source but what he's saying is right some black populations have been natives to some part of the sahara and miscegenation happened a lot of times and this phenomena was amplified by the trans-saharan slave trade as you can see here :
quote:Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012).However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century. The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods , such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations.
quote:A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages. " " The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago
Also I've never denied that there were some blacks in NA ...there are multiple mentions of blacks mercenaries in the carthaginian armies or in south tunisia for example but they were not berbers or viewed as such and they were a very tiny minority like today.
As for archeological documents and testimonials :
from herodotus's trip in egypt -->
quote:After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race.
so clear distinction between "ethiopians" and egyptians.
quote:The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
quote:The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
Arrian, Indica 6.9
quote:As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
Strabo, Geography 15.1.13
quote:Black people resided not in the Nile valley but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun.
Xenpohanes (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8)
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians .
Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
The word "mauri" was an ethnonym used for north-west africans and comes from the punic word "mahurim" which means "westerners" (because they lived west of carthage) (https://www.persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0037-8984_1903_num_4_1_7671) so It had nothing to do with "black" or dark skin also don't confuse it with another term "blackamoor" which was an artistic movement.
I can post thousands of evidence like these ones but i will finish this answer by showing a genetic study who show that guanches ( who were isolated from most foreign invasions) were identical to modern north africans :
quote:Our results show that the Guanches were genetically similar over time and that they display the greatest genetic affinity to extant Northwest Africans, strongly supporting the hypothesis of a Berber-like origin
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
@ Baal Todah rabba 4 linx 2 Dana's blog! I see she explained why she left ES. Ah well.
Anyway the archaeology, genetics, and anthropology of the Maghreb and adjacent regions, from the Pleistocene to now, has been extensively covered on ES these past 15 years.
Nassbean has a partial point. Though of course it's absolutely wrong in general. Herm art and mosaics show black types of classical era iMazighen have a distinctive enough set of features differing from the imaginative negro stereotype which is not in the least universal south of the Tropic of Cancer.
A fantasy artist is certainly free to render whatever. It's up to the viewer to realize fantasy from reality. Just as the astute reader discerns obviously biased propaganda from a less loaded presentation.
Bias is obvious when an entire forum's membership is deemed monolithic in outlook and disparagingly labeled Afrocentric forgetting that the mainstream is in fact >85% Euro in ethnicity and thus Eurocentric in outlook.
@ T-hotep Sorry to take your thread off topic but this is where the blackless Maghreb, Masriq, Tropical North Africa (i.e. Sahara) nonsense was broached. Both of the unbalanced viewpoints miss the fact of near timeless N Afr diversity and contacts.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ok, look at the OP Kel and RP coastals rendered in THIS thread. Only the Numidian's hairstyle and face 'tats' look innaccurate or unlikely when compared to a Roman frieze of such cavaliers. As for his Numidian woman, Brandon carefully details the assembled elements of an admitted pastiche that never existed anywhere outside his imagination.
quote:Originally posted by Nassbean: why do you portray north africans as niger-congo people ? do you have any genetic or historical evidence for this ? Or it's just for fun (i hope) ?
which picture of his are you referring to?
check out his the website to see where he's coming from
A showcase for the art and writing of Brandon Pilcher. Dinosaurs, ancient history, and strong and sexy heroines await ye!
To an extent Black females are the same type regardless of the region because that is the type he finds to be sexy. So the historical part is a layer laid on top of the sexual fantasy making it educational at the same time.
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You're not doing a proper job here. You are posting photos with information
from Ibiza Spain, from Phoenicians who originated in Lebanon and colonized other parts the Levant, North Africa and Spain across the Mediterranean between 1500 BC and 300 BC.
instead look at the Capsian culture of the Mesolithic and Neolithic Maghreb Maghreb
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ario: Ah ha ha.. tyrannocuck deleted my posts..
Uncalled for! For those unaware cuck (cuckold - a man who stands by other men using his wife for sex) is a slur used by yte supremacists, especially when fishing for recruits. Everyone knows wewuzkangs is race bait. This poster is about hate directed at blx and yte perceived race traitors.
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/30/us/white-supremacist-woman-reeve/ She went from a liberal non-voter to burning books with white supremacists. Here's why she finally left the movement . . . . In the fall of 2016, Samantha's indie-rock-loving boyfriend changed. He started lifting weights and making jokes she didn't understand. When she finally Googled them, she discovered they were based on an elaborate, violent, white supremacist fantasy called the "Day of the Rope," in which people of color, Jews, gays and the "race traitors" who helped them, are murdered.
"I couldn't believe it," Samantha said. "We both knew so many people that fit that description." Her boyfriend reassured her they were just jokes. But then, she says, he looked her in the eye and said that he was a fascist, and that he couldn't be with anyone who wasn't. . . . . . "Like it starts as a joke where you laugh nervously. Then you kind of stop laughing, 'cause you're used to it," she said. "And then you start to post it yourself, because you want to be a part of that. And it's this really quick, quick descension into that." . . . . She became an interviewer for Identity Evropa, testing whether new applicants were fluent in white power ideology and screening out Jews and people of color. She told herself that she wasn't racist, just "pro-white." . . . . The alt-right emerged from the same parts of the internet as violently misogynist groups like incels, or involuntarily celibate men. . . . . ... there's no single leader who dictates the culture and doctrine. Instead that's created and enforced by largely anonymous people on message boards and in chat rooms, each one trying to one-up the others
Joanna Schroeder has a warning for parents of teen and tween white boys: If you don't pay attention to their online lives, the white supremacists will.
"They've studied the way that our young men interact online, and they have looked at what these boys need," she said. "And they have learned how to fill those needs in order to entice them into propaganda."
"I know my kids understand Hitler, but as I scrolled through his [social media] I saw more memes that joked about the Holocaust and joked about slavery," Schroeder said. The impact, she said, seemed to be "desensitizing our kids to things we should be sensitive to." . . . . ... she was jolted when she heard her elder son talking about being "triggered."
"You'll hear this from your conservative uncle, and you may also hear this from a kid that's getting a lot of alt-right messaging online — that everyone's too sensitive today," she said. "That is entryway kind of terminology. It's not racist. No, it's not. But it's often used against people who are calling out racism or sexism or homophobia."
Other terms she tells parents to listen for include
quote:• snowflake; • kek, a form of "lol" that sometimes refers to an ironic white nationalist 'religion'; • cuck; • chad; • femenoid; • beta; • "Blood and Soil," • and the numbers 14 or 88, for their association with Hitler and Nazism.
The words may not appear obviously racist or sexist in themselves, but they have been co-opted by extremists and, in some cases, taken on new meanings (https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/09/28/us/hate-symbols-changing-trnd/) . . . . "I wanted parents to know," she said. "To pay attention, because this particular group of boys is being targeted and these parents have no idea." . . . . ... memes begin to normalize ideals that are repugnant, she says. And those ideas can seem to have merit as teens go through the struggles of growing up.
"First boys are inundated by memes with subtly racist, sexist, and homophobic, anti-Semitic jokes and being kids, they don't see the nuance and they repeat and share," Schroeder said. "Then they are shunned in school or socially." . . . . After the deadly 2017 Unite the Right protests in Charlottesville, Virginia, • Twitter suspended alt-right and white nationalists accounts. • Reddit began putting threads that had white nationalist or alt-right propaganda under "quarantine" in 2017. • And Discord, an app designed initially for communication between gamers, has begun purging white nationalist content.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Good lord. Ive had posts removed within 8 hrs. Jari got banned lickety kite for exposing Arab racial nationalism. Take some dang screenshots to save for admin, delete what needs deleting, and bumrush this sucka head first out the door. One set of rules for all regardless of race.
posted
While we are waiting for the Ario situation to be sorted out...
It’s a battle for predatory supremacy in Late Cretaceous North America as these Dakotaraptor steini take on a mighty Tyrannosaurus rex.
As the viewer might guess, this scene was very much inspired by the iconic conclusion to the climax in Jurassic Park. It’s also a tribute to older dinosaur depictions wherein packs of dromaeosaurids (most commonly Deinonychus) would gang up on larger dinosaurs to take them down. It could simply be my perception, but somehow I haven’t seen as many of those scenes in more recent paleoart. I miss those days.
posted
This character would be an Egyptian gladiatrix who fights for the entertainment of Roman audiences. The design isn’t necessarily meant to be all that historically accurate, but given that female gladiators are known from Roman records (albeit not commonly) and that Egypt was among the Roman Empire’s most economically important provinces, the existence of a character like her shouldn’t be beyond possibility.
By the way, I wanted to try out a “cel-shading” approach (like you see in hand-drawn animation) with this piece, which is why the highlights and shaded areas have sharper edges than in most of my other work.
posted
Hey Bruce, I loved your art, it's so beautiful! Would you consider participating in a project on European history as well? I want to start a business in Germany, pretty much based on publishing and translating history books with illustrations. Well, it's not an active project yet and I'm still looking for a commercial property in Germany as the base of my own publishing house but I'd love to have contact with talented illustrators before I begin. So, if you are interested please contact me!
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Here would be a character of mine Itaweret, an ancient Egyptian priestess from my novel-in-progress Priestess of the Lost Colony. This isn't how she dresses in the novel itself, of course, but I wanted to have a little fun with her by drawing her in a modern hip-hop fashion style.
posted
If that asteroid had never struck the Earth sixty-six million years ago, what would the mighty Tyrannosaurus rex have evolved into? Maybe it'd have even stronger jaws and even smaller arms?
I'm actually not 100% sold on the scenario of tyrannosaurids gradually losing their forelimbs if they were to survive to the present day (those arms, while relatively short, would have still been quite muscular and so might have retained some function), but from an aesthetic standpoint, shorter arms does help visually distinguish this hypothetical descendent of T. rex from its Cretaceous ancestor.
quote:You don't even understand what you're posting ....smh : first of all aterians are a middle and upper paleolithic people and they have never been berbers or part of the berber genome at their time there were "black" populations all over the world so taking them to prove that NAs were black is a weak argument I asked for "ancient berbers" (so when history began) not extremely old populations.
I don't understand what i'm posting?!! Are you absurd? The Aterians are the very foundation of early North African cultures and who the Amazigh would eventually be! The Amazigh practically descends from these people! Sure they died out, like most prehistoric cultures, but they are important enough to be mentioned! Also, how is it a weak argument to use the Aterians as representatives of Ancient North Africans! I mean what's weak about using the first people to settle North Africa?!! By the way, I love how you blatantly admit that most of the World’s population in some Prehistoric periods were dark skinned via “Black” and resembled “tropical Africans”! That such relieving news! I thought I was going to have to waste time explaining this simple concept to you. I guess we can put to rest the “Eurasian Backflow” creating a “racial” demographic shift in North Africa since the people of the Levant, Anatolia, Mesopatamia, and Arabia would be what we consider “Black” back then, huh?
"They were clearly a Negroid people, said Sir Arthur, with wide faces flat-noses and long large heads."
Source: 1932 NY Times “BONES OF CANNIBALS A PALESTINE RIDDLE” (Discovery of the Natufians)
“..one can identify Negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in Natufian latest hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and Macedonian first farmers, probably from Nubia via the unknown predecessors of the Badarians and Tasians...."
Source: (Angel 1972. Biological Relations of Egyptian and Eastern Mediterranean Populations.. JrnHumEvo 1:1, p307
"Ofer Bar-Yosef cites the microburin technique and “microlithic forms such as arched backed bladelets and La Mouillah points" as well as the parthenocarpic figs found in Natufian territory originated in the Sudan."
Source: Bar-Yosef O., Pleistocene connections between Africa and SouthWest Asia
"From the Mesolithic to the early Neolithic period different lines of evidence support an out-of-Africa Mesolithic migration to the Levant by northeastern African groups that had biological affinities with sub-Saharan populations. From a genetic point of view, several recent genetic studies have shown that sub Saharan genetic lineages (affiliated with the Y-chromosome PN2 clade; Underhill et al. 2001) have spread through Egypt into the Near East, the Mediterranean area, and, for some lineages, as far north as Turkey (E3b-M35 Y lineage; Cinniogclu et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004), probably during several dispersal episodes since the Mesolithic (Cinniogelu et al. 2004; King et al. 2008; Lucotte and Mercier 2003; Luis et al. 2004; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Semino et al. 2004; Underhill et al. 2001). This finding is in agreement with morphological data that suggest that populations with sub-Saharan morphological elements were present in northeastern Africa, from the Paleolithic to at least the early Holocene, and diffused northward to the Levant and Anatolia beginning in the Mesolithic…This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations...”
Source: (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005)
“In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demie diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
“A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype.”
Source: Ricaut et al 2008. Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Popion Hum Bio 80:5 535-64
“Many human craniofacial dimensions are largely of neutral adaptive significance, and an analysis of their variation can serve as an indication of the extent to which any given population is genetically related to or differs from any other. When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of the academic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.”
Source: A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
"Distance analysis and factor analysis, based on Q-mode correlation coefficients, were applied to 23 craniofacial measurements in 1,802 recent and prehistoric crania from major geographical areas of the Old World. The major findings are as follows: 1) Australians show closer similarities to African populations than to Melanesians. 2) Recent Europeans align with East Asians, and early West Asians resemble Africans. 3) The Asian population complex with regional difference between northern and southern members is manifest. 4) Clinal variations of craniofacial features can be detected in the Afro-European region on the one hand, and Australasian and East Asian region on the other hand. 5) The craniofacial variations of major geographical groups are not necessarily consistent with their geographical distribution pattern. This may be a sign that the evolutionary divergence in craniofacial shape among recent populations of different geographical areas is of a highly limited degree. Taking all of these into account, a single origin for anatomically modern humans is the most parsimonious interpretation of the craniofacial variations presented in this study."
Source: (Hanihara T. Comparison of craniofacial features of major human groups. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):389-412.)
“The early colonists of Babylonia were of the same race as the inhabitants of the Upper Nile.”
Source: “PreHistoric Nations” (1869)
"First there is the Eurafrican...In ancient times, this type is found in Mesopotamia and Egypt and may be compared with the Ombe Capelle skull. It is possibly identical with men who lived in the high desert west of the Nile in paleolithic times.." (-Penniman, T.K. "A Note on the Inhabitants of Kish.."
Source: Excavations at Kish, 1923-33 Vol 4. pp 65-72)
"Another impression that arose on the first examination was that the Eridu skulls showed a marked prognathism .. Keith's interesting conclusions-that the skulls of the ancient Sumerians were relatively narrow, that they were dolichocephalic, a large-headed, large-brained people, approaching or exceeding in these respects the longer-headed races of Europe, and that the men's noses were long and wide-is applicable to some of the 'Ubaid dead of the latter half of the third and the beginning of the second millennium B.C."
Source: Cambridge Ancient Hist, Vol 1, Part I, 1970, p. 348; 358
"The body was that of a forty-year old woman with a height of about 1.6 meters, who was of a more modern racial type than the classic 'Mechtoid' of the Fakhurian culture (see pp. 65-6), being generally more gracile, having large teeth and thick jaws bearing some resemblance to the modern 'negroid' type."
Source: (Beatrix Midant-Reynes, Ian Shaw (2000). The Prehistory of Egypt. Wiley-Blackwell. pg. 82)
“based on the statuaries and steles of Babylonia, the Sumerians were “of dark complexion (chocolate colour), short stature, but of sturdy frame, oval face, stout nose, straight hair, full head; they typically resembled the Dravidians, not only in cranium, but almost in all the details.”
Source: “A Study in Hindu Social Polity”
The second study concerns physical examination of Sumerian skulls. Buxton and Rice have found that of 26 Sumerian crania they examined 22 were Australoid or Austrics. Further According to Penniman who studied skulls from other Sumerian sites, the Australoid Eurafrican, Austric and Armenoid were the "racial" types associated with the Sumerians. Here is Penniman's description of the Austric type found at Sumer:
"These people are of medium stature, with complexion and hair like those of the Eurafrican, to which race they are allied with dark eyes, and oval faces, broad noses, rather feeble jaws, and slight sinewy bodies."
Source: “Tracing the Origin of Ancient Sumerians”
“Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, “are comparatively modern in Arabia,” they have “appropriated the reputation of the old race,” and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”
Source: Traditions Superstitions and Folklore, Charles Hardwick , Manchester A. Ireland and Company
“The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia.”
Source: Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity
“Among these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full, rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious, gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”
Source: Memoirs Arabs of Central Iraq; Their History, Ethnology and Physical C haracters, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4
“There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.”
Source: The Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization, p.61 2007
“In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these.”
Source: the Handbook of the Territories which form the Theatre of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies, First Edition, Compiled in the Companies Head office at 214 Oxford Street
Some of these quotes, although outdated, are still useful and credible, especially when there are updated materials that follows by. But, that's neither here nor there.
quote:E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup is a berber haplogroup specific of north africa and most of modern north africans have this haplogroup ....so what's your point ? thanks for contradicting yourself.
My point is that this so-called “Berber” haplogroup has its origins in Eastern Africa and is associated with other “Africans”, you dunce!
“Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct exodus from Africa into Europe believed to have appeared first in the Horn of Africa about 26,000 years ago and scattered to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afro-asiatic languages.”
“The highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is noted in Northeast Africa region in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer sub-clades like M281, V6 or V92.”
I made no contradiction, I meant what I meant, but apparently you can’t handle the information laid before you, so you have to resort to attacks.
quote:Again you show here your ignorance because genetically iberomaurusians are not considered as a black population
Wrong! The Iberomaurusians originated from “North Africa” and indirectly “Inner Eastern Africa!'' They were not Backflows or significantly more “Eurasian” than “African”!
“The Iberomaurusian arose independently in North Africa with no presently known cultural antecedents. Its epicenter may have been in Algeria, from where it spread westwards into Morocco and east into Libya and Cyrenaica. The earliest dates for Tamar Hat and slightly 40 younger ages from Grotte des Pigeons, Taforalt and Kehf el Hammar (36), and much younger dates from Libya and Cyrenaica are consistent with this scenario. They imply a cultural break around 25,000 cal. yBP.”
“It is surprising that we observe a high proportion (36.5%) of sub-Saharan African ancestry in 596 Taforalt. First, present-day North Africans do not have as high sub-Saharan African ancestry as 597 the Taforalt individuals (Fig. 2B+S12). This may be attributed to more recent events, such as the 598 historical Arab expansion. Also, the periodic expansion of the Saharan desert played a major role 599 in limiting gene flow between North and sub-Saharan Africa throughout time. For example, a 600 previous study of ancient Egyptian genomes shows that the genetic affinity with the Near East 601 was even stronger in the first millennium BCE in Egypt (5). Importantly, our Taforalt individuals 602 predate the most recent greening of the Sahara by several millennia (84). Thus, we may speculate 603 that the sub-Saharan African ancestry in Taforalt derived from the gene pool of pre-LGM North 604 Africans, who belong to the Middle Stone Age (MSA) cultures (10).”
Source: Pleistocene North African genomes link Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African human pop, Krause 2018
Pay no mind to the assumption the article is making about the Ancient Egyptians, this is just a little bit of cherry picking. It’s pretty clear that the analysis done in 2017 in Abusir-El Meleq, “Northern” Middle Egypt was heavily flawed, especially since they only three mummified remains out of a total of one hundred fifty mummies. All three mummies, by the way, were dated in the late 1st Millennium BCE. Let's evaluate this.
Study implied that ancient Egyptians came from the Asia, and that "sub-Saharan" Africans are recent due to the Islamic slave trades: “Schuenemann et al.1 seemingly suggest, based largely on the results of an ancient Study implied that ancient Egyptians came from the Asia, and that "sub-Saharan" Africans are recent due to the Islamic slave trade: “Schuenemann et al.1 seemingly suggest, based largely on the results of an ancient DNA study of later period remains from northern Egypt, that the”ancient Egyptians” as an entity came from Asia and that modern Egyptians “received additional sub-Saharan African admixtures in recent times” after the latest period of the pharaonic era due to the “trans-Saharan slave trade and Islamic expansion..” There are alternative interpretations of the results but which were not presented as is traditionally done, with the exception of the admission that results from southern Egyptians may have been different. The alternative interpretations involve three major considerations: 1) sampling and methodology, 2) historiography and 3) definitions as they relate to populations, origins and evolution.” Tiny sample sizes: “The whole genome sample size is too small (n=3) to accurately permit a discussion of all Egyptian population history from north to south.”
Other DNA data show substantial African affinity: “Results that are likely reliable are from studies that analyzed short tandem repeats (STRs) from Amarna royal mummies5 (1,300 BC), and of Ramesses III (1,200 BC)6; Ramesses III had the Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7. Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African”- a point worth repeating.”
Arbitrary definition of some DNA haplogroups as ‘Asian’ problematic: “Conceptually what genetic markers are considered to be “African” or “Asian” .. For example, the E1b1b1 (M35/78) lineage found in one Abusir el-Meleq sample is found not only in northern Africa, but is also well represented in eastern Africa and perhaps was taken to Europe across the Mediterranean before the Holocene (Trombetta, personal communication). E lineages are found in high frequency (>70%) among living Egyptians in Adaima9. The authors define all mitochondrial M1 haplogroups as “Asian” which is problematic. M1 has been postulated to have emerged in Africa10, and there is no convincing evidence supporting an M1 ancestor in Asia: many M1 daughter haplogroups (M1a) are clearly African in origin and history10. The M1a1, M1a2a, M1a1i, M1a1e variants found in the Abusir el-Meleq samples1 predate Islam and are abundant in SSA groups10, particularly in East Africa.”
So called “sub-Saharan” patterns in place from the beginning in Egypt and are not merely the product of the ‘slave trade.’ “Furthermore, SSA groups indicated to have contributed to modern Egypt do not match the Muslim trade routes that have been well documented11 as SSA groups from the great lakes and southern African regions were largely absent in the internal trading routes that went north to Egypt. It is important to note that “SSA” influence may not be due to a slave trade, an overdone explanation; the green Sahara is to be considered as Egypt is actually in the eastern Sahara. SSA affinities of modern Egyptians from Abusir El-Meleq might be attributed to ancient early settlers as there is a notable frequency of the “Bushmen canine”- deemed a SSA trait in Predynastic samples dating to 4,000 BC9 from Adaima, Upper Egypt. Haplogroup L0f, usually associated with southern Africans, is present in living Egyptians in Adaima9 and could represent the product of an ancient “ghost population” from the Green Sahara that contributed widely. Distributions and admixtures in the African past may not match current “SSA” groups12.”
Definition of ‘African’ stereotypical, even as strangely, authors exclude many actual African samples near Egypt from the data “Schuenemann et al.1 seem to implicitly suggest that only SSA equals Africa and that there are no interconnections between the various regions of Africa not rooted in the slave trade, a favorite trope. It has to be noted too that in the Islamic armies that entered Egypt that there were a notable number of eastern Africans. It is not clear why there is an emphasis on ‘sub-Saharan’ when no Saharan or supra-Saharan population samples--empirical or modelled are considered; furthermore, there is no one way to be “sub-Saharan.” In this study northern tropical Africans, such as lower and upper Nubians and adjacent southern Egyptians and Saharans were not included as comparison groups, as noted by the authors themselves.”
And here's the kicker, the Geneticists acknowledge this….
"In their paper, the researchers acknowledged that “all our genetic data were obtained from a single site in Middle Egypt and may not be representative for all of ancient Egypt.”
quote:and guess what ? a recent study has just proved that there is a genetic continuity since the iberomaurusian era
And guess what?! Your own quote says that this prehistoric genetic continuity is small in modern North Africans!
“They have identified a small genetic imprint of the inhabitants of the region in Palaeolithic times”
Also, showing me a bar graph estimating some random guy’s DNA results isn't really telling me anything, especially since many geneticists don't take in consideration the “mixture” of what makes North Africans “North African” and they hypocritically lump geopolitical regions like the Middle East or parts of the Middle East with North Africa, while excluding regions in Africa with a significant genetic impact! Overall there's no breakdown of what makes up these ancestral populations, thus making your point moot!
quote:none of them look black or biracial.
Riiiight....
Portrait of an amazigh woman (Imilchil, Morocco), Kate Peters
Two imazighen girls during the filming of Zaïna: Rider of the Atlas (Morocco, 2005), P. Demange
Imazighen men (2010, Imilchil, Morocco), Abdelhak Senna
Imazighen isawiyen/chaoui men from Khenguet Sidi Nadji, Biskra, Algeria, F. Castel
Amazigh man from M'Sila Algeria, Fayez Nureldine
Portrait of an amazigh woman from the High Atlas, Morocco, Alan Keohane
Amazing portrait of an amazigh elder woman from Ourika Valley, Morocco, @boublouhs
Amazing photo of a group of imazighen men from Ouazzane, Morocco, @ojrober
Awww, how cute! Your now moving the goalposts! You dismissed the evidence above as outdated, while you yourself continue to use materials and resources that are also considered outdated! That’s adorable! “It's wrong because I say so!” Right?! You must be screaming inside, because you have to lay your eyes on the testimony of the same people who gave you the “Mediterranean” race a century ago! Your Worldview is being dismantled into pieces as we speak, when you glimpse your eyes on that cursed word and eventually is forced to read out every instance of each quote, while concluding that the Ancient remains of these North African folk, from which you probably descend, are “Negroes” of “Negroid” affiliations! That's got to give you a headache doesn't it? You were so hyped over the fact that the Ancients could have looked like you, weren't you? Also, in older anthropological analysis on Human remains, Dolichocephalic crania was seen as being a "Negroid" characteristic, despite it being a common characteristic in most of the World population. But even then, Anthropologists would decidedly labeled Eastern Africans, some West Africans and Central Africans, South Asians, Malays, Pacific Islanders, and even indigenous Americans as “Mediterranean”. Oh the irony of it all! Personally, i’m not obsessed with phenotypes. Nay quite to the contrary, I understand the dynamic and complexity of racial terminologies, unlike you! You know, it's really funny that you decided to attack me over the age and credibility of one of my sources, while blatantly ignoring all of the other quotes detailing the remains of Ancient North Africans in recent times!
“The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).”
“Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).”
Source: The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
"Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste."
quote:Reality about carthaginians is this:
Reality isn't your thing my friend. Anyone with some basic knowledge of the Phoenicians would know that they had colonies across the Mediterranean, not just parts of North Africa! It's obvious that the remains of the discovered “Phonecian” boy was likely from the Phoenicians colonies in the Mediterranean Sea or possibly the Iberian Peninsula. Regardless, it doesn't change anything, as the remains of the “Phoenician” was not buried in the Phoenicians homeland, the Levant, and again the Geneticists selected a small sample of remains to represent both the Phoenician and Carthagian population, an extremely small sample! Just one! So your point is moot!
quote:also here some coins depicting famous carthaginian figures :
Ok, you showed two minted coins of the Punic God, Melqart. This isn't telling me what the average Carthaginian or even the average Phoenician looked like! The Phoenicians are already known to have influenced populations across the Mediterranean, but what is less known is that they were influenced by various groups too, preferably the inhabitants of the Nile Valley (the Egyptians) and the inhabitants of the Aegean (the Greeks). The Phoenicians borrowed minted coins or commissioned the production of minted coins in their colonies and foreign lands. They adapt such coins in a wide variety of ways common in the Mediterranean, but their adaption is undoubtedly Greek in nature! To say that these coins represents the average North African is like me saying that these coins represents the average Lesbos Islander: https://www.icollector.com/GREEK-COINS-ISLAND-OF-LESBOS-Twelfth-billon-about-520-480-B-C-Bi-0-90-g-Head-of-an-African_i8744782
I mean, the inhabitants of Lesbos designed coins of Blacks, does that mean that the average person on the island were Blacks?!!
quote:How they portrayed their gods:
So your showing me how the locals of Ibiza, Spain portrayed their “Hellenized” Phoenician Gods? Ok! Speaking of Ibiza….
“The origin of the Punic population of Ibiza has been a much debated issue, not only in the field of anthropology, but in archaeology as well. The establishment of rural settlements and the apparent demographic growth throughout the island, especially from the 4th century BC onwards, has been mainly recognised as the result of a colonization process involving a large-scale immigration of people. The material culture from this period seems to indicate that the probable origin of these immigrants was the area of the Central Mediterranean, especially Carthage. This paper compares measurements from Ibizan skulls dating from between the sixth and second centuries BC with craniometric data from modern American populations by employing the forensic discriminant functions of the FORDISC 2.0 (Ousley and Jantz, 1996) computer program. In spite of the method’s limitations, the results seem to suggest the presence of several individuals of North African and sub-Saharan ancestry in Punic Ibiza.”
Speaking of which, can you explain to me why the Greeks portrayed their three most important Gods, Hera, Aphrodite, and Hermes as Blacks, since the Phoenicians portrayed some of their Gods as Whites?
Do you have information about where these sarcophagus are from? Not that it matters anyway, I just want to make sure what i’m looking at. Especially because of quotes like these….
“Leucosyri, to distinguish them from the people from beyond Taurus, which bear also the name of Syrians, but who, compared to the cistauric populations, are to have the dye browned by the heat of the sun, while those do not have it, difference which gave place to the denomination of Leucosyri.”
Strabo Geography 12:3:
“....the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or White Syrian, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."
Strabo Geography 16:1:2
"Long ago, after Noah, Blacks inhabited our country: they went up as far as Morocco until from Syria came the first white conquerors: they were light skinned men with grey eyes."
Source: La tradition chez les Ida Aghzeinbou
If you didn't know, the Greeks often differentiated the inhabitants of the Levant in terminologies like Melanosyri (Black Syrians) and Leucosyri (White Syrians). The Melanosyri were seen as the aboriginal inhabitants of the Levant, while the Leucosyri were seen as the newcomers or immigrants of the Levant. The Greeks considered the Phoenicians to be the Melanosyri.
quote:How italians portrayed hannibal:
Sir, there are no visible representations of Hannibal Barca or even his kin. The infamous bust found in Capua, Italy was mistakenly taken to be Hannibal. Multiple scholars have promoted this bust as being the only depiction of the “Enemy of Rome”, but there isn't any real evidence to suggest this. People blindly believe that this bust is Hannibal, without considering the following….
“This bust was found in Capua, Italy and is promoted as being Hannibal. The primary issue is not that this isn’t an image of Hannibal (most likely). The issue is that they completely ignore ancient historical perspectives to paint the viewer a picture. Francis Pulzky, a noted iconographer says that this is not a sculpture of Hannibal but simply”….
“the ideal representation of a hero.”
-Francis Pulzky
So the bust is not Hannibal, especially if it was found in a foreign country!
Now the official position of one of the primary researchers on this topic is from Colonel Hennebert, and he says:
“There exists no really authentic portrait of Hannibal.”
quote:Also in ancient times the word "Aethiops" was used by greco-roman scholars to describe any black population and they never used it for north africans.
The Greek word "Aethiops" was a vague term applied to any “Black” population, but often with an unofficial geopolitical context! The Greeks first applied the word to the inhabitants of the Levant and parts of Asia Minor, this eventually changed when the Levant began to experience demographic change. They then applied it to parts of the Nile Valley and the Sahara, realms where the Greeks didn't have a clear geographic definition for! Overall, they often used Aethiopia to describe all of the inhabitants of Northern Africa, parts of the Middle East, and South Asia, thus the region why Libya, parts of Mesopotamia, and Arabia was considered Western Aethiopia and Southern Iran and India was considered Eastern Aethiopia. So yes, the Greeks and Romans did use the term to describe North Africans, while limiting the term to other Blacks from undefined geographical borders! Historically the borders of undefined” Aethiopia was Southern Libya and Southern Egypt. Also, for you to say that the Greeks and Romans never applied the term to North Africans, when the Nubians, an unmistakable Black African population in North Africa was described as being Aethiopian is really historically dishonest to say the least. Practically all Aethiopians mentioned by the Greeks were from North Africa, so how can you say that the Greeks and Romans never applied it to North Africans!
quote:About moroccans I didn't find any information about your source and I'm a french speaker...
Well, you probably didn't even know where to begin your research. Here is an article in relation to the above quote, that speaks about 19th Anthropologists racial classification of North Africans, in the French tongue of course.
“Oh, it's outdated and racist against North Africans!” You know, i’m not surprised that you are so concerned over old quotes like these because these are the type of resources that gets people hooked on. Though, I must admit that I only picked up this little quote a while back. I can't remember what the website was called, but the quote also reappears on one of Quora’s threads about the Moors. What surprises me is that you seem to not see extremely old quotes like these….
"The blacks are more numerous than the whites. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and the Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, the Moors, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China (Southeast Asia), and Masin, the islands in the seas between China (Southeast Asia) and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China (Southeast Asia), Kabul, and those shores."
Source: Al-Jahiz (776-869): Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh (Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites)
Hmmm, I wonder why? Maybe it just to clear, especially if it by a self described Black man and one of Islamic Golden Age’s greatest Scholars!
quote:but what he's saying is right some black populations have been natives to some part of the sahara and miscegenation happened a lot of times and this phenomena was amplified by the trans-saharan slave trade as you can see here :
No dude, he’s saying that Moroccans were originally a majority Black people and they became increasingly mixed over time! He’s detailing Blacks in the Sahara because they are distinct and relatively isolated, but also widespread! He’s describing the spectrum within North Africans and the various features are present among them! That's why he says that Dark Moors are another variation of the same race! He’s not of the allusion that the Whites that are present among the North Africans are aboriginal to the region! And they weren't a product of Slavery! You see, people like you always want to talk about how North Africans are diverse and that the region was was always exclusive, but you never want to shed any light on Black North Africans, maintaining that they were always “Slaves” and that their history was mostly a product of Slavery. You people would talk about the Trans Saharan Slave Trade and it's significant impact on North Africa, if it had such a major impact on the inhabitants of the inhabitants of North Africa, but continually remain silent about the Eurasian Slave Trade. You deny any demographic shift ever happened in North Africa, unless it fits your narrative in putting yourselves in North African history, which is why you go all the way back to prehistory to leech on the Paleolithic inhabitants of the Near East and North Africa, failing to realize that none of these people even looked like you in the first place. You see, when it comes to North African history everyone, including North Africans themselves, are in denial to things that involved recent demographic decline caused by an influx of Eurasian “immigrants”, but are so accepting to a recent influx of Sub Saharan “immigrants”, oh I mean Slaves, since you probably of the assumption that people South of Sahara never migrated out of Africa or North of the Sahara and were prone to be brought in chains. You rather believe North Africans were always light and became dark through intermixing with their “Black” Slaves. But, when to mixing in general, the irony is that there really wasn't mixing; or its just that people put too much emphasis on it in discussions such as this. What most people do not know is that parts of North Africa, preferably the area of Northwest Africa(Morocco/Algeria) was sparsely populated in Ancient and Medieval times. People are quick to forget that Iberian Muslim converts from were expelled and flooded the coastal part of Northern Africa. Non-Black immigrants soon outnumbered the aboriginal inhabitants. To give you an example Christian renegades (Spanish, Italian, French, Albanian, etc. who would eventually convert to Islam) and the medieval slave trade had a major impact on places like Tlemcen, Oran, Bejaia (Bougie - Kabyle central) and especially Alger. Jacques Heers argues in "Les barbaresques" (2001, pg 227) at the time of Turkish rule in Algeria, 50% of the population in the capital was composed of European/Christian slaves (even Italian slaves by the seventeenth century). Saqalibas from the Balkans were also well represented. Besides, Arab excursions displaced many of the ancestral populations of the Maghreb between the 12th-15th centuries. Its a huge Eurocentric myth that Africans/blacks were the largest amount of slaves during that period when sources like this state….
"Except for the Zanj (Swahili Slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab World...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus...In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third."
So there you have it, Blacks during the period of the Moors (Crusades) were a minority when it came to the Slave Trade. However, when it came to White/Europeans, they were literally EVERYWHERE in the Muslim world as Slaves to a point where Slavonic people from Eastern European were associated with Slaves. Thus the word “Slave” comes from Slav which you should already know. But more importantly, according to this article MILLIONS of white Christian Europeans were enslaved and flooded Northern Africa.
A million Europeans enslaved
An American historian says that more than a million Europeans were enslaved by North African slave traders between 1530 and 1780, a time of vigorous Mediterranean and Atlantic coastal piracy.
The number of white European slaves is only a fraction of the trade that brought 10 million to 12 million black African slaves to the Americas over a 400-year period, historian Robert Davis says, but his research shows the slave trade was more widespread than commonly assumed. The impact on Europe’s white population was significant.
“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature — that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” said Mr. Davis, an Ohio State University professor.
“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”
In a new book, “Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800,” Mr. Davis calculates that between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates called “corsairs” and forced to work in North Africa during that period.
The raids were so aggressive that entire Mediterranean seaside towns were abandoned by frightened residents. “Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe.
“Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”
The pirates, sailing from such cities as Tunis and Algiers, raided ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children, he says. They were put to work in quarries, in heavy construction and as oarsmen in the pirates’ galleys.
Mr. Davis calculated his estimates using records that indicate how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.
“It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”
The Translator of Leo Africanus, Robert Brown mentioned -
"The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states.”
Source: (Brown, 1896, p. 203)
According to Robert Davis Tripoli, was “occasionally reportedly crowded with large numbers of Greek slaves."
Source: (Davis, 2003, Christian Slaves Muslim Masters, White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800.p. 112)
So there you have it. European Slaves played a big role in the demographic shift in an already sparsely populated region of the World. Anyone, denying the impact of the European slave trade on Northwest Africa is only being in denial. Not only that you also have the fact that a large amount of Muslim Converts in Iberia were expelled to North Africa.
“By 1614 every last Morisco was gone, and Islam disappeared from the Iberian Peninsula. Going from over 500,000 people to zero in 100 years can only be described as a genocide. Indeed, the Portuguese Dominican monk, Damian Fonseca, referred to the expulsion as an “agreeable Holocaust”. The effects on Spain were grave. Its economy suffered greatly, as a large part of the labor force was gone, and tax revenues dropped. In North Africa, Muslim rulers attempted to provide for the hundreds of thousands of refugees, but in many cases, were unable to do much to help them. The Moriscos of North Africa spent centuries trying to assimilate into society, but still kept their unique Andalusian identity.”
“To this day, neighborhoods in major North African cities boast of their Morisco identities and keep alive the memory of Muslim Spain’s glorious past. They remind us of the illustrious history of the Iberian Peninsula, as well the tragic story of their expulsion from their homes in the one of the greatest genocides Europe has ever seen.”
The expulsion of Muslims from Spain was so bad that some considered it genocide and it is still felt today. But hey... Let the Eurocentrics tell it and the Northwest African population always looked the way they did. This is why we start seeing pale skinned Berbers in large frequencies around the 15th and 16th century. This is where we see the bulk of the Eurasian admixture. It's clear that Blacks were far than being a minority in Ancient times as you can see here….
“subsaharan population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste."
Source: (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990)
quote:Also I've never denied that there were some blacks in NA
Oh, I was never of the assumption that you thought Blacks didn't have a place in North African History, rest assured. Oh no, you just think that we were just in the background serving you and your mixed race Ilk, contributing little if anything to the region, and never rising beyond the limits of Slavery and Servitude. We were just there as you people say, small and influentially insignificant. See, people like you think your giving us a bag of trinkets, trying to find a false balance between “Afrocentrists” in general and the extreme fringe of Eurocentrism, “Nordicists”. Basically saying cliche things like “North Africans are neither Black or White”, or “Some were Black, some were White, and others were in-between”, and “North Africans have always looked this way”, all the while establishing your olive skinned selves as the greatest representatives of all North Africans, but maintaining the darker and Black North Africans as being nothing but descendants of Slaves. Yeah no, Ancient North Africans weren't “mixed” and they certainly didn't look anything like you.
quote:...there are multiple mentions of blacks mercenaries in the carthaginian armies or in south tunisia for example but they were not berbers or viewed as such and they were a very tiny minority like today.
Well, if that be the case, then you should be able to identify these “Black” Soldiers that were recruited in the Carthaginian, Roman, and Arab armies then. Maybe you will be able to explain why a handful of Mediterraneans, Northern Europeans, and and Middle Easterners made no mention of these “Black” Soldiers ethnic or national background and assume that they were “Berbers”....
How about Alfonso X, the ruler of Castile, Galacia and Leon during the 13th century. Let's see what group of people he these Black foot-soldiers in?
"All the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired… their black faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was like (as black as) a cooking pan."
Oh my, this can't be correct, it seems that he described the “Black” foot soldiers as Moors. Gee, I wonder why he would confuse these Black guys as Moors and say the Moors were Black? Probably an exaggeration statement.
What about the Seafaring “White” Danes (Vikings)? Let's see how they described the Moors….
"They attacked Nekur off the coast Morocco. There was fierce fighting with the Moors but in the end the Vikings were victorious, and many of the "Blue-men," as they called Moors, were ultimately carried off prisoners to Ireland, where we hear of their fate the Fragments of Irish Annals.”
Source: Cambridge Medieval History
Hmmm, this is strange. Why would the Vikings call the Moors “Blue Men”? I wonder….
“These were the blue men [fir gorma], because Moors are the same as negroes; Mauritania is the same as negro-land (literally, the same as blackness).”
Source: Early sources of Scottish history, A.D. 500 to 1286
“Norse sagas describe Africans as "Blaumenn" (blue men)”
“Negroids and some "Moors" were called "blue-men" in early Irish-Norse Chronicles”
Well maybe this was only the troops, let's see how they described the Medieval Moroccan population….
"After this the Lochlanns (Danes) passed over the whole country, and they plundered and burnt the whole country and they carried off a great host of them as captives to Erin and these are the blue men of Erin, for Mauri is the same as black (Nigri) man and Mauritania is the same as blackness. Long indeed were these blue men in Erin…"
Source: Early Intercourse Between the Franks and Danes, Transactions of the Royal Historical Society 1, pp. 18-61
Oh my! Well, they were quite serious when they described the Moors as Black. But how does this fit in today's scholarship? They probably discredit such narratives anyway. Let's see, shall we….
Coat of Arms of Sardinia. As with the heraldry of families named with variants of Mori or Moor, several countries in Europe have flags and coat of arms with the heads of Moors on them. Military historian, Yaacov Lev in the article , “Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt” (1987) wrote of Nasir Khusroes of the 11th century who speaks of the "20,000" Masmuda men that made up part of the Fatimid troops in Egypt in his time saying, “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords”
Source: (from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365)
I wonder why would these modern Scholars say such a strange thing? There probably all delirious.
Corippus, a Byzantine in Book I, 245 of Johannidus, Book 1, 245, speaking of Moors in the area of North Africa who he felt had "faces of a horrible black color" stated, “Maura videbatur facies, nigro colore horrida” Michell, G.B. (1903, Jan.). The Berbers. Journal of the Royal African Society, 2(6), (pp. 161-194). He also refers to some Moorish captives as "black as crows."
"The Moors have bodies black as night, while the skin of the Gauls is white..."
Source: The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation by Steven A. Barney, published 2007. p. 386
Moors are so named because “they are black, and their blackness comes from the heat of the sun”….
Source: (9.2.121-23)” (Ramey, L., 2008)
Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “woolly hair like a Moor” also translated "a Moor with his crisp hair"
Source: Book 6 of "The Epigrams
"A striking proof that the word Moor was, as among the Germans at this time, exactly equivalent to negro, is not only its use as applied to the curly-haired, thick-lipped Aaron in Titus Andonicus, but also the constant interchange of the two words as applied to the equally unmistakable negro Eleazar, in Lust's Dominion."
Source: Elmer E. Stoll, Shakespearean scholar
Well, all of these quotes seems to maintain that the Moors were Blacks! But these are all descriptions of the commoner, clearly the Moorish elites and rulers weren't described in such a way….
Description of Yusuf ibn Tashfin, the Eleventh century Sultan of Almoravid Dynasty:
According to medieval Arabic writers, Yusuf was of average build and stature. He is further described as having "had a clear brown complexion and he had a thin beard. His voice was soft, his speech elegant. His eyes were black, his nose was hooked, and he had fat on the fleshy portions of his ears. His hair was curly and his eyebrows met above his nose."
Even Wikipedia agrees with this stuff! That's it, I give up!
Oh, I almost forgot! Here is a little something about the Carthaginians recruitment of “Black” Soldiers….
“To what extent Carthaginians employed Negro slaves is doubtful. Punic cemeteries have yielded numerous skulls of a negroid character, and there were some very dark-skinned Africans, perhaps negroes, in the Carthaginian army which invaded Sicily early in the fifth century B.C. Frontinus tells us that as prisoners they were paraded naked before the Greeks soldiery in order to bring the Carthaginians into contempt. On the other hand, as the Carthaginians customarily enslaved prisoners of war and the victims of their piracy, two sources of supply which they must have found very fruitful, they were far from being dependent on Africa for slave labour. It is unlikely that they hesitated to enslaved as many Berbers as they required, nor were so brutal a people likely to have drawn the line at doing the same to their own peasantry. The evidence of negro blood, is, however, significant and it seems probable that they imported slaves from the Fezzan. It was a likely source, for the Garamantes cannot have hunted the Troglodyte Ethiopians except to enslave them. The slave trade with the Fezzan may have been important to the Carthaginians, but there are no grounds for assuming that it was.”
Source: The golden trade of the Moors: West African kingdoms in the fourteenth century, By E. W. Bovill, Robin Hallet, pp. 21-22
“In the Punic burial grounds, negroid remains were not rare and there were black auxiliaries in the Carthaginian army who were certainly not Nilotics. Furthermore, if we are to believe Diodorus(XX, 57.5), a lieutenant of Agathocles in northern Tunisia at the close of the fourth century before our era overcame a people who skin was similar to the Ethiopian. There is much evidence of the presence of 'Ethiopians' on the southern borders of Africa Minor. Throughout the classical period, mention is also made of peoples belonging to intermediate races, the Melano-Getules, or Leuco-Ethiopians in particular in Ptolemy.”
Source: General History of Africa: Ancient civilizations of Africa By G. Mokhtar, Unesco. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa, p. 427
quote:As for archeological documents and testimonials : from herodotus's trip in egypt -->After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race. so clear distinction between "ethiopians" and egyptians.
“Race”, as we understand it today, was not the same to the Ancients. Ancients like the Greeks, thought of race as being limited to your regional background and your nationality. The idea of “race” however, was not subjected to just your complexion or particularly features indiscriminately in some cases. Herodotus is making a distinction between the Egyptians and Aethiopians “racially”, but his people's version of race is based on regional associations and doesn't have much to do with the absolute appearance of the two “groups”. He’s saying that there were Aethiopian rulers of Egypt and that's about it. He did not detail on how both of these two groups were any different. The historical records shows how both the Egyptians and Aethiopians were described and how deeply connected they were with each other….
“There can be no doubt that the Colchians are an Egyptian race. Before I heard any mention of the fact from others, I had remarked it myself. After the thought had struck me, I made inquiries on the subject both in Colchis and in Egypt, and I found that the Colchians had a more distinct recollection of the Egyptians, than the Egyptians had of them. Still the Egyptians said that they believed the Colchians to be descended from the army of Sesostris. My own conjectures were founded, first, on the fact that they are black-skinned and have woolly hair, which certainly amounts to but little, since several other nations are so too. But further and more especially on the circumstance that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians, are the only nations who have practised circumcision from the earliest times”.
Source: Herodotus, The History of Herodotus By written 440 B.C.E. (Translated by George Rawlinson, Publication date 1909)
The Ancient Egyptians were said by the Greek historian Herodotus to be “melanchroes with curly hair”. The meaning of the Greek word melanchroes in recent times has been contested and redefined to mean dark or tanned or olive skinned Caucasians. Tan by definition is a pale tone of brown. The name is derived from tannum used in the tanning of leather. The first recorded use of tan as a color name in English was in the year 1590. But, if we examine the word in the manner in which the ancient Greeks used it, we are left with no doubt that the word melan (Black) chroes means “Dark Brown” or “Black”, not “Tan” or “Gold”. The root word for melanchroes is melas or melan, which “Black”, from mid 19th century, melas, melan equals “Black”. Melanchroes - dark brown or black pigment found in animal bodies, 1832, Modern Latin, with chemical suffix - in (2); first element from Greek melas (genitive melanos) "black," probably from a PIE root *melh- "black, of darkish color" (source also of Sanskrit malinah "dirty, stained, black").
Even with first hand accounts by actual Greek eyewitnesses (who cannot be confused with or labeled “Afrocentrics”), is scrutinized and reinterpreted by racially biased people today. As if these men did not have eyes to see and did not understand what they were writing descriptively….
Dr. Sally Ann Ashton on the controversial interpretation of the words “woolly and melanchroes”:
“Many readers will be familiar with another quote from Herodotus (Histories 2:104) that makes reference to the appearance of the people of Kemet having dark skin (melanchroes) and curly (often translated as “woolly” on account of the word “oleos”)”.
“The use of a term to describe the hair that includes the word for wool would suggest that the hair of the ancient Egyptian people was textured and different from that of the Greeks.”
The fact that the term melanchroes covers a variety of dark skin colours as pointed out by Lloyd, supports that argument that the people of ancient Kemet were indigenous African people, and that they represented the variance that we find amongst African people today”.
quote:The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
Huh, funny. From, what's being said, Manilius is describing the Aethiopians as being darker than the Indians, and the Indians being darker than the Egyptians, ok, that's fine. No news there. The Aethiopians were always denoted to being the darkest people of all of Mankind and especially more darker than the Egyptians. I mean they weren't wrong, just look at the Nilotic peoples of South Sudan, who are the most probable representatives of the Greeks Aethiopians. However, sadly for you, you fail to realize that he is no way saying that the Egyptians weren't Black! Only confirming that they are lighter compared to the Aethiopians and Indians. Why this obsession with using strawman arguments to make your points, you do understand that most Blacks aren't literally “Black”, but comes in almost all shades of “Brown”, without “racial” intermixture of course. Anyway, I did a little research on this quote and it seems that Manilius was listing all the Blacks of his day. Without the above two of his listing are inaccurately distorted. Here’s is the entire quote in it’s accuracy….
“Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos progenerat; tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis iam propior mediumque facit moderata tenorem. Phoebus harenosis Afrorum pulvere terris exsiccat populos, et Mauretania nomen oris habet titulumque suo fert ipsa colore.”
“The Ethiopians stain shadows shape the world pouring men nations; India, choking less breadth; Egyptian Nile floating earth a polished and well-watered fields are heavy bodies already more midst of a moderate wording. Sun sandy powder African countries up people and call Mauritania the title of the mouth has a very color of his own mind.”
Apparently Manilius also listed the fairest of people in the World.
“Idcirco in varias leges variasque figuras dispositum genus est hominum, proprioque colore formantur gentes, sociataque iura per artus materiamque parem privato foedere signant. flava per ingentis surgit Germania partus, Gallia vicino minus est infecta rubore, asperior solidos Hispania contrahit artus. Martia Romanis urbis pater induit ora Gradivumque Venus miscens bene temperat artus, perque coloratas subtilis Graecia gentes gymnasium praefert vultu fortisque palaestras, et Syriam produnt torti per tempora crines.”
“For this reason various laws and various shape the arrangement of the kind of men, individual colors forming peoples, the rights of the limbs sociataque and materials to be a match for a private treaty with him who is sealed. Blonde huge rise in Germany and delivery; France is at hand, stained with shame to take the less, Spain solids drastic nature of the limbs. He put on the mouths of the father of the city of Mars by the Romans, Venus is very well Gradivus, mix the limbs, and by the subtle colors of Greeks He prefers a strong expression of exercise training Syria and tortured by the time they discover their hair.”
Source: MANILIUS ASTRONOMICON 4.711-730
Manilius seems to place the Egyptians complexion between the Indians and the Saharans (North Africans), while he places the Greeks complexion between the Syrians (most likely the Northern Syrians) and the Romans. This seems to establish that the Ancient Egyptians were far from being “ Fair” or “Swarthy” and were much closer to the Aethiopians complexion than the Greeks, therefore they were still Black. Only a couple shades lighter than their Aethiopian and Indian counterparts, but a couple shades darker than their Syrian, Greek, and Romab counterparts. Basically they were the third darkest people in the World. Here is Manilius list of the darkest and lightest nations in the World in order….
“Aethiopes, India, Aegyptia, Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, Graecia, Roma, Hispania, Gallia, Germania” By the way, I got this information from these two threads….
quote:The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically. Arrian, Indica 6.9
Again, a differentiation is made, but he is not establishing the Egyptians as being a “Fair or rather an “Olive” skinned hue. I hope your not one of these people who thinks that the fair skinned Punjabis were the ones being described as the average Northern Indian skin tone or thinks that all North Indians are fair skinned. That's even worse!
Examples of Manilius’s Eastern Aethiopians….
“North India”
Man sitting alongside the Ganges River, Garhmukteshwar, Uttar Prades
“South India”
Man from India at Brihadishvara temple, Tamil Nadu
Examples of Manilius’s Western Aethiopians….
“Egypt”
Upper Egyptian man at west bank, Luxor, Egypt
“Aethiopia”
Sudanese man in Wadi Halfa, Sudan
quote:As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians. Strabo, Geography 15.1.13
"I assert that the ancient Greeks, in the same way as they classed all the northern nations with which they were familiar as Scythians, etc., so, I affirm, they designated as Ethiopia the whole of the southern countries toward the ocean."
Source: Strabo, Geography 1.2.26, The Geography of. Strabo published in Vol. I of the Loeb Classical Library edition , 1917
quote:Black people resided not in the Nile valley but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun. Xenpohanes (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8)
Undoubtedly a mistranslation. The Translator most likely replaced the Greek word “Aethiopes”, or Aethiopians with “Black”. On the plus side, here is an interesting quote by the same man….
“the Ethiopians as black, and the Persian troops as white compared to the sun-tanned skin of Greek troops.”
Source: Xenophanes of Colophon: Fragments, Xenophanes, J. H. Lesher, (2001)
quote:It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians . Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,
I was afraid something like this would happen. There's not a lot of information about this quote authenticity, as it appears sadly. However, that's not to say most of the quote is distorted! Lucky for you, I made a thread a month ago on Egyptsearch Reloaded in response to this mysterious description. Here is what was found….
Tukuler take of the quote:
He’s most likely describing the skin cline that is apparent in Northeast Africa, which is Indigenous by the way. Here's an example of what he might be talking about….
So not much reliable in disproving the Ancient Egyptians were Black, sorry!
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
quote:The word "mauri" was an ethnonym used for north-west africans and comes from the punic word "mahurim" which means "westerners" (because they lived west of carthage) (https://www.persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0037-8984_1903_num_4_1_7671) so It had nothing to do with "black" or dark skin also don't confuse it with another term "blackamoor" which was an artistic movement.
So your just going to ignore what I previously posted as being the etymology of “Moor”? Alright fine. Let's look at the Greek word “Mauros” and it's true meaning….
μαύρος
Noun μαύρος = black, raven, Negro, nigger αράπης = nigger, black, Arab, Negro Νέγρος = Negro, nigger, black
Adjective μαύρος = black, colored, sable, pitchy, coloured σκοτεινός = dark, obscure, dingy, murky, shady, black μαυρισμένος = black άσχημος = ugly, nasty, unsightly, seamy, homely, black άγριος = wild, feral, fierce, savage, ferocious, black δυσοίωνος = sinister, ominous, inauspicious, portentous, pessimistic, black
Verb μουτζουρώνω = black, smudge, smut αμαυρώνω = darken, tarnish, stain, black δυσφημώ = disparage, discredit, vilify, defame, denigrate, black
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"North African, Berber, late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India"
For you this may seem as an exciting victory, but article actually establishes that the Amazigh were Black. This is the article’s first sentence, by the way….
“The ancient Maures [Moors] were indeed had skin complexions black as coal or brown as wood or tree bark complexion(s) and color(s)”
The Website seems to be heavily embedded in the topic of the Moors. Here are a couple of their articles that breaks down the racial element associated with the Moors, enjoy!
By the way, the term “Blackamoor”, “Blackamoore”, “Blackamore”, and “Blackmoor” derives from the old phase “Black as a Moor”.
quote:here famous moorish king:
Now, what gives you the idea that King Juba II isn't Black? Because he has wavy to straight hair? The guy’s features practically gives it away and debunks your fantasy of “Mediterranean” North Africa!
Bust of Juba II
You see, during the Greco-Roman era many people across the Mediterranean were “Hellenized” and eventually “Romanized” in most aspects of their culture. The elites in North African societies were great admirers of Greco-Roman or regional “Mediterranean” cultural influences, partially because they were subjected to regional “Mediterranean” rule by the Seafaring Phoenicians. They adopted wardrobes of the Mediterraneans and even hairstyles, which again explains Juba’s haircut. Despite this particular look, Juba still displays peculiar features that is not typically “Roman” in nature to a certain degree, particularly wide nostrils and blubber lips. Even though his bust can't display what kind complexion he really had, the description of his people by foreign visitors however can….
Procopius of Caesarea differentiating the Maurentanians from White settlers.
“And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are mennot black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.”
Source: History of the Wars, Books III.xxv.3-9; IV.vi.10-14, vii.3, xi.16-20, xiii.26-29
quote:I can post thousands of evidence like these ones
Well that's fine. I’ll just post a million more sources debunking and contradicting your “evidence”.
quote:but i will finish this answer by showing a genetic study who show that guanches ( who were isolated from most foreign invasions) were identical to modern north africans : Our results show that the Guanches were genetically similar over time and that they display the greatest genetic affinity to extant Northwest Africans, strongly supporting the hypothesis of a Berber-like origin
Only one problem, the Guanches were not predominantly North African in origin nor were they the only ones on the Islands….
“Pope Eugene IV Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands January 13, 1435”
“Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church.”
“Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade. At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.”
Here is a nice quote by another Egyptsearch member detailing something similar to this….
quote:On this site we have discussed the East African origin of Berber language speakers going back many years. But beyond that the issue has always been the sampling locations of populations along the coasts of North Africa as the epitome of all North Africans at any time depth. And because of the exposure of these populations to non African gene flow over time, that has become the basis of the "sub saharan" vs "north African" genetic divide due to skewed sampling. Of course the U6 DNA lineages, being the most dominant in Northwest Africa, have been assigned a "Eurasian" origin, therefore, there has always been an issue on geographic labels for ancient African DNA. So until the assignment of these labels to these ancient lineages changes and we get better aDNA from Africa, there is no "indigenous" non SSA African genetic lineages in North Africa..... This is precisely why I refrain from using the term especially when it comes to ancient African DNA. Until we find more aDNA from Africa at greater time depths than currently available, we will not be able to get a proper picture of the population movements and patterns of North African history. It is obvious that the Sahara has had an impact on this history, but the idea that "indigenous" Africans did not and have not settled in and traveled across the Sahara, albeit in relatively small numbers, does not make sense. Yet this is what this whole "eurasian back migration" theory imposes on North African history. And the only way to find these ancient signs of small sized population sites around various oases across the Sahara and North Africa is to do greater DNA sampling outside of the extreme coasts of North Africa and to find more of these ancient settlement sites near oases, lakes and springs. Not only that but there are significant settlement sites in the Central and Southern sahara that are hardly ever used when it comes to ancient or contemporary North African DNA. Just because North Africa has been sparsely populated since the last wet phase, doesn't mean that no "indigenous African" lineages were not present. Of course the only exception to the rule of sparse populations in North Africa is the Nile Valley which would have supported much larger population settlements as we see from Ancient Egypt and predynastic population settlement patterns. But even here that whole false dichotomy of 'sub saharan' vs non existent 'north African indigenous' DNA still exists.”
How this fits into Canary islanders goes more into how and when the first settlers arrived in the islands. Currently it is theorized that the canary Islands were settled somewhere around 1000 BCE from the nearby African coast. The only reason this was in question, is because the currents in the area do not provide a direct route to the islands. But otherwise it shouldn't be a shock that this is the case. And therefore the DNA of the Canary island first settlers falls into generally the DNA of North Western Africa as part of "Berber" DNA even though Berber as a language is not a DNA lineage.
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