quote:The study says that proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan.
you ignore the specific data...
* haplotypes IV is a typical southern haplotypes, being almost absent in A (1.2%), (delta)
* but preponderant in B (27.3%) and C (39.1%). (Upper Egypt and Nubia)
* Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab haplotypes, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt
* Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan populations, shows a southern geographical distribution in Egypt.
* Haplotype XI [very important in Ethiopia] also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) (Upper Egypt and Nubia)
compared to the north (11.7% in A)
This study like most of your material has been discussed many times before on this site (search for Ausar's A SOUTHERN EGYPTIAN's astute comments on it)
It is agreed that it is actually surprising that the basic Egypto-Nubian affinity, and contrasting distinction with the Asiatic north is still in tact even after thousands of years of Asian incursion.
quote:This does not prove the Egyptians were black Africans.
Lol. You cited the study. It doesn't prove much of anything, except the relationship between upper Egyptians and Nubians. That you pretend not to see this, and cite the study for what it says about "Zarian Bantu" ROTFL!, shows how pathetically desparate your act is becoming.
Tell us...what unique insights you glean (via stormfront) from this study about the Maori of New Zealand? The Inuit of Canada? The Sherpa of Nepal? If you can't see what's there (the Nubian Egyptian relationship), then at least amuse us by telling us more about what's not.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 13 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Lol. You cited the study. It doesn't prove much of anything, except the relationship between upper Egyptians and Nubians. That you pretend not to see this, and cite the study for what it says about "Zarian Bantu" ROTFL!, shows how pathetically desparate your act is becoming.
There was a relationship between Lower Nubians and Upper Egyptians but again they shared much more in common with Lower Egyptians (probably Lybians) than with southern Sudanese.
quote:So we can sum it up this way... There are 4 clines:
In fact B + C (upper egypt and lower nubia) cluster closely whereas A does not, this is significant because the these are contiguous geography within one country, and yet the delta is genetically distinct, and does NOT cluster with Upper Egypt or Lower Nubia.
There is nothing offensive about mulatto and secondly southern Europeans are not mulattos, so are Near Easterns.
You are really talking out of complete sheer of ignorance.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
You are so biased and lost in your view that AE were mulatto, raceless, african but not black people that you can't even make a coherent statement without contridicting your prior statements.
Guys arguing with him is futile and null. Its like you guys going to war with nuclear weapons and him throwing rocks. Not only does he have no grounds to stand on,but he can't even be logical enough to comprehend the incongruence of his dismantled and irrational thought process and arguments. Honest its like he's arguing with himself.
So just one more time orinx(sp) tell me how we have only pure blacks and whites range from pale to brown. I guess white is the human prototype.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: It's your concept, not mine. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Goes for Spanish Bulls, Latin trolls too.
You need to shut the hell up.
It's your war against the white man who you hate so much. Not mine. As you said this actually applies to you, fight with the sword you created or die by it.
This actually goes for all humans...
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
posted
ooh. don't be sad, we like all people. esp. trolls. now, just google up some of those lost Berbers and Cline D data so we can all keep laughing. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Keino: You are so biased and lost in your view that AE were mulatto, raceless, african but not black people that you can't even make a coherent statement without contridicting your prior statements.
You are biased with your Blackcentric bullshit.
Blacks had a part in ancient Egypt but the majority of the population were brown Africans, people who weren't black and weren't white either.
Now go hunt the white man who you despise so much.
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: You know you guys are really funny posting pictures of starving people with no food or homes. Americans always like to show other people's missery.
Take a trip to Yemen and i can assure you will see similar looking women (not the starving ones of course).
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
Pretty girls! They would fit into most black african countries not just Ethiopia, or the rest of the horn of Africa; they will also fit nicely into the western black population without anyone noticing. They resemble many people in my countries! Now tell me how western black are mulattoes...LOL
You need to get a grip on the reality of black people.
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: You need to shut the hell up.
It's your war against the white man who you hate so much. Not mine. As you said this actually applies to you, fight with the sword you created or die by it.
This actually goes for all humans...
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
You are so redundant in your empty rhetoric! No one here from my point of view have a problem with any people namely white. We are just stating the facts that many WHITE egyptolgist have stated and proven that AE's origin is black and as a whole they were what we call today Black. Herodotus and many other WHITE scholars share of view. I guess they hate themself too. FACTS are facts whether or not you or I like them. How facts are manipulated is another thing. You are fighting a losing battle, but alteast you're going down with your intellectually bankrupt ship! LMAO!
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: You are biased with your Blackcentric bullshit.
Blacks had a part in ancient Egypt but the majority of the population were brown Africans, people who weren't black and weren't white either.
Now go hunt the white man who you despise so much.
Michael Jackson's music video, "Remember The Time" is a perfect depiction of the various black types in Ancient Egypt. you should watch the video, its very good!
quote:Originally posted by Keino: You are so redundant in your empty rhetoric! No one here from my point of view have a problem with any people namely white. We are just stating the facts that many WHITE egyptolgist have stated and proven that AE's origin is black and as a whole they were what we call today Black. Herodotus and many other WHITE scholars share of view. I guess they hate themself too. FACTS are facts whether or not you or I like them. How facts are manipulated is another thing. You are fighting a losing battle, but alteast you're going down with your intellectually bankrupt ship! LMAO!
I honesty pitty you!
Ok so you actually say that you're white?
Most whites would not like this kind of racism against them but i'm not speaking for them.
Why are you guys so angry about the fact that Egypt was a "mulatto" civilization with a lighter north and darker south?
There were few "white" Egyptians but a lot of mulatto (Berbers and Asiatics in the north) just as it is today.
The black Upper Egyptians mostly came from pre-historic Sahalian populations like the ones in southern Libya and southern Algeria.
Edit: The own Egyptians used to paint themselves in Brown, the Nubians in Black and the Berbers as light skinned.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
posted
No one ever gets angry here but you. And it's odd that you would get angry over European "mulatto civilisations" since that's your (crude) term. I guess that's all a part of the hypocrisy.
When you get mad and hurl profanity after failing to support your arguments it makes us think you are trying to get banned on this board as a way out. Trolls sometimes force the issue that way.
Now....have you come up with any answers to the questions earlier posted?
quote:Originally posted by Keino: You are so biased and lost in your view that AE were mulatto, raceless, african but not black people that you can't even make a coherent statement without contridicting your prior statements.
Guys arguing with him is futile and null. Its like you guys going to war with nuclear weapons and him throwing rocks. Not only does he have no grounds to stand on,but he can't even be logical enough to comprehend the incongruence of his dismantled and irrational thought process and arguments. Honest its like he's arguing with himself.[/B]
I agree. As this discourse continuous, Orionix ideas just seems to keep on disintegrating. By his own definition, a mulatto is the ofspring of a white man and a black woman. But then, just a few moments ago, he said there was NO black Egyptians. Now keep mind that earlier, he had to admit that Egyptians were black, with the southern origins of the civilization. So now, he has decided to go back to Upper Egyptians not being black, but being brown mulattos. If Egypt didn't have black people, and if we were to go by his own definition, how then could there be mulattos?
The other senario that can come from his logic, is that there never was a tropical African race in the horn of Africa or Sahara. The first Africans, meaning the first humans, were "spontaneously" mulattos. The mulattos of the Sahara and east Africa would have then moved to the Nile Valley, and viola...we have the majority mulatto race in the Nile Valley. Again, according to Orionix, there never was a black Egyptian race. The only pure race for Orionix, appears to be the Near Eastern. In this instance, it would appear that Human origin was in Asia. East and North Africans, and Southern Europeans would be the derivative of this race. See how completely screwed up his argument is? The guy isn't obviously familiar with the origins of Nile Valley settlers. As a result, there is simply no expression of coherency in his comments.
Oops, he has had a change of mind: now, there is a black Egyptian population after all. Well, how about that!
quote:Orionix: The black Upper Egyptians mostly came from pre-historic Sahalian populations like the ones in southern Libya and southern Algeria.
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 13 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: [B]No one ever gets angry here but you. And it's odd that you would get angry over European "mulatto civilisations" since that's your (crude) term. I guess that's all a part of the hypocrisy.
You are an Idiot. There is nothing crude about mulatto.
North Africans are indeed intermediate between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans.
quote:When you get mad and hurl profanity after failing to support your arguments it makes us think you are trying to get banned on this board as a way out. Trolls sometimes force the issue that way.
The only troll here is you.
You really try to convince me that the ancient Egyptians were some dominant race of black Africans from whom the Greeks stole their culture from.
Without mentioning the switching between different screen names to support your argument.
One thing is for sure, you are a sick person.
If it was my board you could make sure that the door would already slam in your face.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
posted
Orionix, one thing you might want to try is anger management therapy. Certainly trolling here doesn't seem to be working. Your condition seems to be worsening in fact.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Orionix, one thing you might want to try is anger management therapy. Certainly trolling here doesn't seem to be working. Your condition seems to be worsening in fact.
You sound like Ausar. I think you are him but i'm not sure though.
Believe me i'm the last one to get emotional on an Afrocentric Internet forum.
quote:You sound like Ausar. I think you are him but i'm not sure though.
Believe me i'm the last one to get emotional on an Afrocentric Internet forum.
Three times you have posted my name,and I have said nothing to you. People are free to express whatever opinion or belief they wish on this forum. This forum does not ascribe to any view and what people post here don't necessarily represent my views as moderator of the forum.
Please leave my name out of your posts! Do it again and I will deleate your posts! This is the last time.
At one time you even took quotes from supercar and affixed them to my name. You have plagized,used profanity, and slandered my name. ya ibn Kalb ya khawaga !!!!!!
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Keino
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Orionix, one thing you might want to try is anger management therapy. Certainly trolling here doesn't seem to be working. Your condition seems to be worsening in fact.
Guys I thihk Orionix is only like 15 or so. This argument style is very immature and juvenile. He can't even stay focused on objective facts. He is using immature Ego defense mechanisms: 1)Acting out= unacceptable feelings and thoughts are expressed through actions (ie verbal tantrums). 2)Dissociation= temporary drastic change in personality, thought, memory, or motor behavior to avoid emotional stress. 3)Denial- Avoidance of the awareness of some painful reality. 4)Rationalization= Proclaiming logical reasons for actions actually performed for other reasons.
quote:Please leave my name out of your posts! Do it again and I will deleate your posts! This is the last time.
Go head, delete my posts. Who fucking cares.
quote:At one time you even took quotes from supercar and affixed them to my name. You have plagized,used profanity, and slandered my name. ya ibn Kalb ya khawaga!!!!!!
First of all you better watch out your tone of language.
I don't know you but i can shut your site down and believe me there are people who know how do it and how to get your IP out and everything. Don't make things bad for yourself.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 14 November 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 14 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: First of all you better watch out your tone of language.
I don't know you but i can shut your site down and believe me there are people who know how do it and how to get your IP out and everything. Don't make things bad for yourself.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 14 November 2004).]
Is this a threat? You are one sick little boy. Go to bed before your parents ground you! NOW!
quote:Originally posted by Keino: He is using immature Ego defense mechanisms: 1)Acting out= unacceptable feelings and thoughts are expressed through actions (ie verbal tantrums). 2)Dissociation= temporary drastic change in personality, thought, memory, or motor behavior to avoid emotional stress. 3)Denial- Avoidance of the awareness of some painful reality. 4)Rationalization= Proclaiming logical reasons for actions actually performed for other reasons.
Dude i can feel your boredom and lonliness. I think you watched too many movies. Go drink some coffee or something.
Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N and African-specific lineages and therefore cluster together in a multidimensional scaling plot between Near Eastern (Yemenis do not cluster with other NE) and sub-Saharan African populations.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).]
Quite simple and plain all that says it that both Ethiopians and Yemenis(at least those tested) share a common ancestry, but yet anyone with a pair of eyes can see both are somatically distinct from one another. Ethiopians, according to autosomal DNA, cluster with sub-Saharan populations. Haplogroups M and N were the first two haplogroups to leave Africa, meaning M and N are in realty African, not Eurasian specific. haplogroups M and N split off from superhaplogroup L3, which also contains sub-Saharan L3 lineages. That study you cited had several errors, inclusing the belief that Amhara migrated from Arabia when they DID NOT.
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: I think the Amhara is the dominant ethnc group.
Most of the people of the horn of Africa are just brown. Their phenotype is quite distinct from other sub-Saharan Africans.
Oromo are numerically dominant, not Amhara and Somalis are quite jet black and most sub-Saharans are the same color, not the sterotypical blackest black=true sub-Saharan.
posted
I would like to say that cushitic and kushite are two different things,and i know this for sure,when you see a country with a large mulatto group,that country must had to start out mostly black,it is never the other way around,if you look at india and some other places.
Posts: 2688 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Orionix: [QUOTE]Originally posted by rasol: [b]Lol. You cited the study. It doesn't prove much of anything, except the relationship between upper Egyptians and Nubians. That you pretend not to see this, and cite the study for what it says about "Zarian Bantu" ROTFL!, shows how pathetically desparate your act is becoming.
There was a relationship between Lower Nubians and Upper Egyptians but again they shared much more in common with Lower Egyptians (probably Lybians) than with southern Sudanese.
A differs from B + C but not as significatly as B + C differ from D.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 13 November 2004).][/B][/QUOTE]
I LIKE how you did that,and you are right,the early lower nubians had things in common with africans south of egypt,not lower egypt,but many lower nubians intermarry over the years,so you have to look at the date of that study,or what time period that study was done for,was it 3000 b.c. because it will show it has more things in common with black africans or 300 a.d. when many lower nubians were mixed but many still would look basically black while other would not but they would still call themsevles black,see folks have a agenda you know.
by the way there were blacks in lower egypt as well but it was quickly something else later,and there were only some left.
[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 14 November 2004).]
posted
Kenndo I don't know if you are being facetious or not, but the data in question tells us about the relationship between Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia, clines B and C, although other groups are mentioned in the study there is not cline data. Read the cline data, not just the commentary:
ex: Haplotype XI [very important in Ethiopia] also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) (Lower Nubia and Upper Egypt) compared to the north (11.7% in A)
This particularity shows strong affinity (almost identical) between Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia and genetic "distinction" in the Delta. It also infers, but does not supply data, that Africa as far interior as Ethiopia would share affinity with Nubia and Upper Egypt...however, no data for that.
This study is used by people (usually eurocentrically) who don't actually read the data, or simply don't know how to.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: It also infers, but does not supply data, that Africa as far interior as Ethiopia would share affinity with Nubia and Upper Egypt...however, no data for that. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 November 2004).]
Thought Writes:
Y Chromosome analysis (PN2 Clade) CLEARLY links African Rift Valley populations from Syria to Kenya. The root of the sub-clade E-M78, which is the only sub-clade found in high frequincies outside of Africa appear in its highest frequincies in Somalia, Kenya and among the Oromo of Ethiopia. This data is consistent with population movement FROM East Africa in conjunction with the early Holocene wet phase to North Africa and the Near East.
quote:Originally posted by S.Mohammad: Quite simple and plain all that says it that both Ethiopians and Yemenis(at least those tested) share a common ancestry, but yet anyone with a pair of eyes can see both are somatically distinct from one another. Ethiopians, according to autosomal DNA, cluster with sub-Saharan populations. Haplogroups M and N were the first two haplogroups to leave Africa, meaning M and N are in realty African, not Eurasian specific. haplogroups M and N split off from superhaplogroup L3, which also contains sub-Saharan L3 lineages. That study you cited had several errors, inclusing the belief that Amhara migrated from Arabia when they DID NOT.
What you said is a subjective opinion. Ethiopians and Yemenis share a common ancestry from 3,000 years ago.
The Amhara are Semetic Ethiopians who migrated back from Yemen to Ethiopia some 3000 years ago.
1. "The occurrence of E*5 212 and E*5 204 alleles in two populations of the Mediterranean basin (Turkey and Italy) but not in West Africans can be explained by taking into account that the Ethiopian gene pool was estimated to be >40% of Caucasoid derivation (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994). In addition, more recent phylogenetic analysis based on classical protein polymorphism (Tartaglia et al. 1996) and Y-chromosome sequence variation (Underhill et al. 2000) showed that Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans and more closely associated with populations of the Mediterranean basin."
(Scacchi et al., Human Biology, 2003)
2. "The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. ... The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position."
(De Stefano et al., Ann Hum Biol, 2002)
Haplogroups M and N are Asian maternal haplogroups, not African. Only L1, L2 and L3 are African maternal haplogroups.
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: Most egyptians became mulatoo after and during the arab period.
Most Egyptians were just brown since at least since 5000 years ago. Lower Egyptians were lighter and Upper Egyptians darker.
This is exactly how they painted themselves. There is really nothing which indicates otherwise.
Genetic studies start to link the people of Upper Egypt to east Africa but it could also be the present-day Sahara, an area SW to the Egypto-Sudanese border.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 14 November 2004).]
Y Chromosome analysis (PN2 Clade) CLEARLY links African Rift Valley populations from Syria to Kenya. The root of the sub-clade E-M78, which is the only sub-clade found in high frequincies outside of Africa appear in its highest frequincies in Somalia, Kenya and among the Oromo of Ethiopia. This data is consistent with population movement FROM East Africa in conjunction with the early Holocene wet phase to North Africa and the Near East.
...which of course is why the migration of Black Africans into and out of Near East, and especially Yemen does not support "caucasoid" diffusionist mythology.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: [QUOTE]Thought Writes:
...which of course is why the migration of Black Africans into and out of Near East, and especially Yemen does not support "caucasoid" diffusionist mythology.
"Caucasoid" is not really scientific, it's social. But in general, Near Easterns are genetically more similar to Europeans than to blacks.
quote:Near Easterns are genetically more similar to Europeans than to blacks.
this statement is false due to mismatched criterion:
* "near eastern" is political-geography, * black is phenotype, * neither one is genotype. * the ancient Blacks of the Kush (now Arabia and Yemen) are both near eastern and Black.
Haplotype XI [very important in Ethiopia] also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) (Lower Nubia and Upper Egypt) compared to the north (11.7% in A)
* In this instance, there is affinity between Upper Egypt and Nubia, (and Ethiopia) while the delta region is genetically distinct. Your concept is thus falsified. Have you found the missing "D" cline data yet?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 November 2004).]
quote: Y-chromosome sequence variation (Underhill et al. 2000) showed that Ethiopians appear to be distinct from Africans and more closely associated with populations of the Mediterranean basin."
A retarded statement, that can only be made by amateurs, who patch up nuggets from different studies that don't address even population variations within one nation. Ethiopian are Africans, and so they can't be distinct from "Africans". This mindless and passive referrence to "Africans" as some homogenous group is well, just junk or crackpot science!
quote:Originally posted by rasol: Orionix: Where is your specific haplotypic data for mystery cline D?
Or are you admitting to having been caught attempting to fabricate data when the actual data [b]completely contradicts you?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 November 2004).][/B]
Cline D is southern Sudan. Upper Egyptians had nothing to do with southern Sudanese.
Y-haplotype 11 (XI) is not African, it's Asian found in Eurasia in the highest frequencies.
Y-chromosomes, inherited paternally, are made up of African Groups I, II and III and Asian Groups IV-X; European lineages are all variations of these Groups. In the more common Jobling/Tyler-Smith nomenclature, we have prominent European haplogroups 1, 2, 3, 9, 21, 22 and 25; Asian haplogroups 4, 10, 12, 16 and 28; and African haplogroups 6, 7 and 8. African-specific lineages are virtually absent in Europe, while Asian-specific ones are concentrated in the Northeast.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 14 November 2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: [B] Cline D is southern Sudan.
then where is your data?
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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supercar
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: Cline D is southern Sudan. Upper Egyptians had nothing to do with southern Sudanese.
That is what you said earlier, and yet you still haven't given the data for Cline D, which supports your earlier statement about A not being as distinct from B&C, as D is. Thus, you haven't answered what was asked of you.
quote:Orionix: Y-haplotype 11 (XI) is not African, it's Asian found in Eurasia in the highest frequencies.
This is not what was said in your earlier reference. So let's reiterate:
Haplotype XI [very important in Ethiopia] also shows a preponderance in the south (in C, 30.4%; B, 28.8%) (Lower Nubia and Upper Egypt) compared to the north (11.7% in A)
You are becoming notorious for contradicting yourself with data that you present.
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: We don't have a recent study about southern Sudan but previous studies indicate a genetic distance between Upper Nubia and Lower Nubia.
Don't address the issue raised but instead, resort to:
"previous studies indicate a genetic distance between Upper Nubia and Lower Nubia.": Crackpot scholarship.
quote:Originally posted by Orionix: Cline D is southern Sudan. Upper Egyptians had nothing to do with southern Sudanese.
Y-haplotype 11 (XI) is not African, it's Asian found in Eurasia in the highest frequencies.
Y-chromosomes, inherited paternally, are made up of African Groups I, II and III and Asian Groups IV-X; European lineages are all variations of these Groups. In the more common Jobling/Tyler-Smith nomenclature, we have prominent European haplogroups 1, 2, 3, 9, 21, 22 and 25; Asian haplogroups 4, 10, 12, 16 and 28; and African haplogroups 6, 7 and 8. African-specific lineages are virtually absent in Europe, while Asian-specific ones are concentrated in the Northeast.
[This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 14 November 2004).]
Sight Writes:
Haplotype V (E-M81) XI (E-M78) and IV (E-M2) constitute the PN2 Clade which is GROUP III. Your confusing terminology specific to this paper with GENERAL terminology. The PN2 clade is of Sub-Saharan origin.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
ooh. don't be sad, we like all people. esp. trolls. now, just google up some of those lost Berbers and Cline D data so we can all keep laughing. 
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