posted
The fact that you're talking about people who were already enslaved vs. people with both and ethnic and nationalistic sense of pride with a whole different history in a different scenario
notwithstanding,
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Yonis
How is it false pride?
Answer: Slavery in Somalia
quote: None of my people were any kunta kinte Even if europeans managed to enslave a bunch of my people i doubt they could hold them as slaves more than five (5) years (i'm being generous here) let alone 400 years, picking cotton day in and out with no reward. There is no way, our nature is very different.
Another example of False Pride
^Yes.
Don't worry about Yonis.
He applauded the Indians who would rather die than stay slaves.
I personally agree with Supercar's response; it's totally the better way to stay the storm and change the game/system.
Also, this ignores the slow process: originally, slavery was just endentured survitude, which Africans and Europeans were free to have servants.
One of the first Americans was a man from Africa with white servants.
Some one posted the article some time ago.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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In any case i think it's sad that some africans were shiped here and there and used as property, i personally would have done my best to stop this tragic event if i had the power but unfortunatly im born in the 20th century and there's nothing i could do about this tragedy, so i guess we have to live with it, and maybe revenge in the future when the power balance shifts. Untill then lets live and let live..
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Those Egyptians in the pictures are not mixed, they are Native Africans just like their ancestors in Anicent Kemet [/QB][/QUOTE]
Go and meet them.
I tell you those are identical to many of my own family.
If you see the picture of my own family, you will call them pure black, but they are not.
Posts: 1090 | From: Merowe-Nubia | Registered: May 2005
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Some think: certain Africans are of certain natures.
I think: in certain circumstance any one will go loose control of themselves. %)
"[...]Sengbe's picture hangs in many public buildings and black colleges in the United States. An account of his gallant deeds appears in many history books. His portrait features on the five-thousand-leones bank note in Sierra Leone. http://www.swagga.com/amistad.htm
A Few Revolts
1526 According to Aptheker, and others, the first documented enslaved African rebellion in the Western Hemisphere, was at the Spanish settlement of San Miguel de Gualdape where enslaved Africans rebelled against their conditions in the fall of 1526.
1537 The first documented enslave African rebellion in Mexico, occurred in 1537; this was followed by the establishment of various runaway enslave African's settlements called "palenques.".
1600 In Brazil, in a sugar cane region near the Atlantic ocean known as Pernambuco, a group of 40 enslave Africans rebelled against their master. They killed all the white employees and burned the houses and plantation. They headed to a very hostile area in the mountains, known as Palmares, because of its abundance of palm trees. In this place an African community was born which lasted for over 100 years. It was divided into eleven fortified sites. There, a population estimated to be about 20 000 free Africans created a new religion and a common language to bring together at least six different African cultures. It is argued that they organized the first socialist society in world. They also mobilized an army that could take over Pernambuco, if they wanted to. They defeated seven attacks from Brazilian military forces and from a Dutch army that had invaded and occupied that region for some years. They ignored a proposal of peace and freedon for all, from the king of Portugal. Zumbi of Palmares, today a hero for Brazilian blacks, was the name of an young acolyte who grew up and became the greatest leader of this African community. Also in this community"
Back to Kemet...
As any most populations change in terms of physical appearance, 'mixed' or un-'mixed', mainstream scientists consider the Beja of Sudan to be the closest population that bears resemblance to the AE
quote:The Beja they consider themselves one of the many Nubian tribes, not Ancient Egyptians.
Regards,
They probably look more like AE than you since you have too much Arab blood and you are too light as a consequence..
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:The Beja they consider themselves one of the many Nubian tribes, not Ancient Egyptians.
Regards,
They probably look more like AE than you since you have too much Arab blood and you are too light as a consequence..
The AE were not as dark as the Beja, they looked like Obama, sun tanned. Their ladies almost like Jeramiah Wright
And please don't bring pictures of the 18th dynasty , they had many Nubian intermixing.
Plus I am a direct descendants of the AE, while the Beja even if they look more like the AE, but they are not their direct descendants, most probably
Posts: 1090 | From: Merowe-Nubia | Registered: May 2005
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posted
meninarmer /Masonic Rebel - I think that you missed Yonis2’s earlier point. I think he was saying that AA’s general tolerance for, and submission to slavery for so long, indicates a general weakness of mind and character not found in all Africans. The implication being, that AA’s are an embarrassment to some Africans. Also not said, but implied: Is that it is galling to have these same people now turn around, and presume to be the voice and face of Black People especially Africans. Yonis2, if I got anything wrong, please correct me.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Some here keep on saying you have nothing to do with the culture of AE, therefore even if you are people are direct descendants of AE. yOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THEM Because 1-You don't live by their culture 2-You have intermixed with other races.
Than they say that southern Sudanese, BEJA, Somalians, and even some mentioned AA, have more right to this civilization
Although they are not direct descendants, may be related racial groups, and defintely neither they live according to Ancient Egyptian culture.
I like them to live in Egypt FOR A YEAR SINCE THEY LOVE ITS HISTORY and know its people inside out, their festivities, their style, dealing with their boss and than tell me if those current Egyptian are not related to AE, more than other group in the world.
posted
Damn AMR1 you really are an ignorant self hater! "The rest of Africa is not my business and I have no relation to them". Explains your wilful and dedicated ignorance of the true history of AE. You may love the (white and Arab manufactured) history but you are woefully ignorant of it.
And I see how dishonest the "no race" posters are, they will say black/white are "subjective terms" but then use them as distinct parameters with which to say who is not "white" or "black" LOL
Yonis2 don't let your anger cause you to resort to demean blacks in the "new world".
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: We see Jeramiah Wright or Obama, Haille Perry as anything but black, for us to be black, you have to be a pure negroic person with negroic features or leaning to almost literally black colour.
Who are the "We" you refer to and exactly why should the rest of us care?
And exactly who are you to define what is or what isn't "Black"? Has Black Africa made you it's spokesperson without having told the rest of us?
It seems to me that African Americans have as much right to call themselves Black as you do.
You can call yourself anything you like but don't impose your criteria of identity on me or our history in North Sudan and Egypt, North Africa, or Abyssinia or Al Andulus.
The rest of Africa is not my business and I have no relation to them, you can do whatever you like with it, it has its own people, if they like your criteria of African American, it is their business. I don't like your criteria of identification and I am sure my people don't like it either.
Weren't you the one who started this foolish thread talking about who is or who isn't "Black"?
Here's a better question for you; how can a Negro who is a tad darker than Barak Obama, and has a wife that is lighter, speak on the "Blackness" of African Americans?
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: You brain drained Black Arabs kill me with your obsession with AAs. Yonis for one, has bigger, dried up lips and Blacker skin than most AAs I know (his face looks like a fat black prune), yet somehow is offended by his own "Blackness". It goes with out saying that AMR1's Arab bias is at the root of his infatuation with lighter skinned people than himself, so I'd let him slide. He merely submits to Arab peer pressure and is willfully submissive to their ideology, which is why he takes the comments of a handful of Africans and caricatures the entire continent while imposing his distorted concepts on AAs and other continental Africans as if we/they need to adhere to them.
Damn if feels good to be West African LOL .
All we have is
Normal(enter ethnicity)=Black Red =Red bone Weak =Yellow bone/recessive looking Negro Red Ear =Arab/Berber White/Pink =European
posted
Wolofi, don't fall in the same trap as AMR1 of essentializing. I know and have interacted with west Africans who have similar reactionary views as he, whether on colorism, history of AE, Pan Africanism etc. We should not view these kind of thinking as "black Arab", "African" or "AA" they are simply the result of colonial mis-education. Remember we were all colonised wether by Arab or Euro.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: meninarmer /Masonic Rebel - I think that you missed Yonis2’s earlier point. I think he was saying that AA’s general tolerance for, and submission to slavery for so long, indicates a general weakness of mind and character not found in all Africans. The implication being, that AA’s are an embarrassment to some Africans. Also not said, but implied: Is that it is galling to have these same people now turn around, and presume to be the voice and face of Black People especially Africans. Yonis2, if I got anything wrong, please correct me.
No Mike, I did not miss Yonis's point. I dismissed it as being irrelent, counterproductive, as well as, incorrect. If Yonis or other AFricans believe African Americans were totally submissive then it indicates a lack of knowledge of African-American history. It also disregards the rise of many American slave revolts, and the rise of many AA militant leaders. In South Africa, it was the combination of insuregency and economic embargo that brought an end to apartheid. AAs played a major role in (1) pressuring to get Mandela freed, and (2)getting the economic embargoes in place against SA. Likewise, AAs who disregard the complexity of African societies would be equally incorrect.
The fact that some Africans may feel "embarrassed" by AAs is also as irrelevent as the number of AAs who unquestionably feel embarrassment of some of their African brethren (?). It works both ways and regardless of their assumptions of one another, in the end, both fractions are weakened and present the same millennium old achilles heel and fatal peccadillo; division. How else could a small group of whites/arabs, out numbered 1000:1 begin to conquer such a huge continent, or take dominion of it's most precious countries, South Africa, Israel, Sudan, Egypt.
For one small fraction of Africans to believe they alone can withstand the well planned "coordinated" assault on Africa is simply nonsensical and wishful thinking. Not to mention a continuation of a millennium old mindset that continues to offer an easy avenue for exploitation for those who fully understand and nuture this weakness...and so, Africa finds itself surrounded, infiltrated, and if unable to find solidarity, following the path of Ancient Egypt.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: meninarmer /Masonic Rebel - I think that you missed Yonis2’s earlier point. I think he was saying that AA’s general tolerance for, and submission to slavery for so long, indicates a general weakness of mind and character not found in all Africans. The implication being, that AA’s are an embarrassment to some Africans. Also not said, but implied: Is that it is galling to have these same people now turn around, and presume to be the voice and face of Black People especially Africans. Yonis2, if I got anything wrong, please correct me.
No Mike, I did not miss Yonis's point. I dismissed it as being irrelent, counterproductive, as well as, incorrect. If Yonis or other AFricans believe African Americans were totally submissive then it indicates a lack of knowledge of African-American history. It also disregards the rise of many American slave revolts, and the rise of many AA militant leaders. In South Africa, it was the combination of insuregency and economic embargo that brought an end to apartheid. AAs played a major role in (1) pressuring to get Mandela freed, and (2)getting the economic embargoes in place against SA.
The fact that some Africans may feel "embarrassed" by AAs is also as irrelevent as the number of AAs who unquestionably feel embarrassment of some of their African brethren (?). It works both ways and regardless of their assumptions of one another, in the end, both fractions are weakened and present the same millennium old achilles heel and fatal peccadillo; division. How else could a small group of whites/arabs, out numbered 1000:1 begin to conquer such a huge continent, or take dominion of it's most precious countries, South Africa, Israel, Sudan, Egypt.
For one small fraction of Africans to believe they alone can withstand the well planned "coordinated" assault on Africa is simply nonsensical and wishful thinking. Not to mention a continuation of a millennium old mindset that continues to offer an easy avenue for exploitation for those who fully understand and nuture this weakness...and so, Africa finds itself surrounded, infiltrated, and following the path of Ancient Egypt.
Actually Yonis views are similar to a lot of West Indian blacks who think we are more "rebellious" than AA because there were more slave revolts over here. Professor John H Clarke and others addressed this misperception already. It's a view the Caribbean intelligencia promotes along with the notions that we are more hard working than AA who only complain about racism etc these same negros will ally with whites over AA (see "Identity Formation Among West Indans in America" by Percy Henzen).
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: It's called superstition, your view is no different than those who hallucinate and illusion things when voodoo dancing.
LOL and falling face first to the ground to pray, circling the Kaaba and throwing rocks at Iblis LOL!!!!!!
You have a point here Yonis Posts: 343 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote: Please, dont insult our pride by making us a subject of some invisible "Dutch, Arab, or WASP masters", we are not slaves. We don't need your condenscending attitude, most of us might be poor but keep your history to yourself, since we have our pride and are no cattle of anyone.
This is an Perfect example of False Pride
How is it false pride? None of my people were any kunta kinte. Even if europeans managed to enslave a bunch of my people i doubt they could hold them as slaves more than five (5) years (i'm being generous here) let alone 400 years, picking cotton day in and out with no reward. There is no way, our nature is very different.
WHOA that was a fucked up statement *raising eyebrow*
Why would you make such a deplorable statement?
Posts: 343 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: meninarmer /Masonic Rebel - I think that you missed Yonis2’s earlier point. I think he was saying that AA’s general tolerance for, and submission to slavery for so long, indicates a general weakness of mind and character not found in all Africans. The implication being, that AA’s are an embarrassment to some Africans. Also not said, but implied: Is that it is galling to have these same people now turn around, and presume to be the voice and face of Black People especially Africans. Yonis2, if I got anything wrong, please correct me.
No Mike, I did not miss Yonis's point. I dismissed it as being irrelent, counterproductive, as well as, incorrect. If Yonis or other AFricans believe African Americans were totally submissive then it indicates a lack of knowledge of African-American history. It also disregards the rise of many American slave revolts, and the rise of many AA militant leaders. In South Africa, it was the combination of insuregency and economic embargo that brought an end to apartheid. AAs played a major role in (1) pressuring to get Mandela freed, and (2)getting the economic embargoes in place against SA.
The fact that some Africans may feel "embarrassed" by AAs is also as irrelevent as the number of AAs who unquestionably feel embarrassment of some of their African brethren (?). It works both ways and regardless of their assumptions of one another, in the end, both fractions are weakened and present the same millennium old achilles heel and fatal peccadillo; division. How else could a small group of whites/arabs, out numbered 1000:1 begin to conquer such a huge continent, or take dominion of it's most precious countries, South Africa, Israel, Sudan, Egypt.
For one small fraction of Africans to believe they alone can withstand the well planned "coordinated" assault on Africa is simply nonsensical and wishful thinking. Not to mention a continuation of a millennium old mindset that continues to offer an easy avenue for exploitation for those who fully understand and nuture this weakness...and so, Africa finds itself surrounded, infiltrated, and following the path of Ancient Egypt.
Actually Yonis views are similar to a lot of West Indian blacks who think we are more "rebellious" than AA because there were more slave revolts over here. Professor John H Clarke and others addressed this misperception already. It's a view the Caribbean intelligencia promotes along with the notions that we are more hard working than AA who only complain about racism etc these same negros will ally with whites over AA (see "Identity Formation Among West Indans in America" by Percy Henzen).
No offense, but I actually agree with Carribeans on this(save for barbados people)Afro Americans have a proclivity to be very lazy and defeatest minded and more so than the Carribeans. The greatest African American leader of which I have full and utmost respect for *Marcus Moses Garvey* was Jamaican.
Remember, Europeans wanted specific passive mostly "Muslim" slaves for the United States so I can see how someone could say the African American gene pool is weaker because that was done on purpose by the slavers. It shouldn't be taken as an offense actually. Also many of the African American ancestors willingly put themselves in slavery just to kill some revolting Africans in the New World that they had previous quams with in Africa.
I can see this in most African Americans(not all) nature as to how they always want to mix and be as light skinned as possible and hating the darker skin African Americans and how they have such disdain for being from African descent or even learning about Africa in general.
There was a poster that used to come here named "Wally" and that piece of sh/it tried to make a dichotomy between "Sophisticated Africans" and "Bush Negroes". He of course is one of these pitiable Africans I am afraid. No healthy minded person of African descent would have ever said something so disgusting as that.
Posts: 343 | Registered: Feb 2008
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Paul Robeson was a famous African-American athlete, singer, actor, and advocate for the civil rights of people around the world. He rose to prominence in a time when segregation was legal in the United States, and Black people were being lynched by racist mobs, especially in the South.
Born on April 9, 1898 in Princeton, New Jersey, Paul Robeson was the youngest of five children. His father was a runaway slave who went on to graduate from Lincoln University, and his mother came from an abolitionist Quaker family. Robeson's family knew both hardship and the determination to rise above it. His own life was no less challenging.
"Robeson was a great athlete as a student at Rutgers University where he won letters in four sports - football, baseball, basketball and track. He was one of the greatest actors and greatest singers of all time. He was also a great scholar who mastered over twenty languages, including the languages of East and West Africa - and made a significant contribution to the study of African history, linguistics, music and folklore."
Statement by Leslie O Harriman (Nigeria) April 10, 1978
"I discovered that ...African languages -- thought to be primitive because monosyllabic -- had exactly the same basic structure as Chinese. I found that Chinese poems which cannot be rendered in English would translate perfectly into African. I found that the African way of thinking in symbols was also the way of the great Chinese thinkers ...I found that I, who lacked feeling for the English language later than Shakespeare, met Pushkin, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Lao-tze, and Confucius on common ground."
"In my music, my plays, my films, I want to carry always this central idea -- to be African." - Paul Robeson, 1934
posted
Wolofi, did you think about your post before you sent it? Where is the proof of this superior genes in Caribbean blacks? The very thought would seem credulous, not to mention unsubstantiated by history and facts.
What do you know of the Caribbean to think we don't accept colonial values of light skin, stereotype Africans and accept Garvey? Do you not think it rather silly to think one set of blacks appreciate hard work, Garvey and blackness over another? Think about it.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Paul Robesson was also an anti-Garvey communist, this is not an attack on him being AA. And no surprise that ANC would honor him as they were taken over by white communists and purged the Africanists. And like all good black communists, as soon as the cold war was over, they became black capitalists and neo-liberalists, with the same dogmatic fervour. So it seems kind of hypocritical for them to honor Robeson.
Kind of off track but I had to say it. LOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
None of these diminishes the high level of his achievements, and his dedication and personal sacrifice for Africa and African-Americans alike.
“Every artist, every scientist, must decide now where he stands. He has no alternative. There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights. There are no impartial observers. Through the destruction, in certain countries, of the greatest of man’s literary heritage, through the propagation of false ideas of racial and national superiority, the artist, the scientist, the writer is challenged. The struggle invades the formerly cloistered halls of our universities and other seats of learning. The battle front is everywhere. There is no sheltered rear.”
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Some here keep on saying you have nothing to do with the culture of AE, therefore even if you are people are direct descendants of AE. yOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THEM Because 1-You don't live by their culture 2-You have intermixed with other races.[/QB]
quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: None of these diminishes the high level of his achievements, and his dedication and personal sacrifice for Africa and African-Americans alike.
“Every artist, every scientist, must decide now where he stands. He has no alternative. There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights. There are no impartial observers. Through the destruction, in certain countries, of the greatest of man’s literary heritage, through the propagation of false ideas of racial and national superiority, the artist, the scientist, the writer is challenged. The struggle invades the formerly cloistered halls of our universities and other seats of learning. The battle front is everywhere. There is no sheltered rear.”
We will have differing views on Robeson's place in history. I think how the world is organised today warrants a serious revision of all those blacks (including King) who rejected Garvey's philosophy. A revision of their proper place as black leaders with sufficient insight and vision, since the philosophy and world they envisioned did not materialise, and from looks of it never will. In other words history confirmed Garvey, mocked Robeson et al.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Yonis's attacks were pretty blunt, and that doesn't even need pointing out.
I may or may not have directly responded earlier, but posted information for the uninformed.
quote:Originally posted by Nay-Sayer:
quote:Originally posted by AMR1: You can call yourself anything you like but don't impose your criteria of identity on me or our history in North Sudan and Egypt, North Africa, or Abyssinia or Al Andulus.
The rest of Africa is not my business and I have no relation to them, you can do whatever you like with it, it has its own people, if they like your criteria of African American, it is their business. I don't like your criteria of identification and I am sure my people don't like it either.
Weren't you the one who started this foolish thread talking about who is or who isn't "Black"?
Here's a better question for you; how can a Negro who is a tad darker than Barak Obama, and has a wife that is lighter, speak on the "Blackness" of African Americans?
Negro please...
Don't give a nigga a hard time cuz he married a person with a different or even lighter skin color.
I know plenty of ignant [black] hefas who verbally denigrate the 'black race', and I know a couple men that have white (not just light) women that make sure to try their best to patronize black.
One of 'em did me a favor.
Stop that simpleton talk.
quote:Originally posted by Wolofi: Damn if feels good to be West African LOL .
posted
Garvey is one of my personal heroes. He influenced many blacks of the past, as well as today. He had tremendous natural charisma and leadership skills.
Likewise, Robeson influenced people such as, Louis Farrakhan, Sydney Poitier, Malcohm X. He literally shattered the White supremacist stereotypes of the time, in not one, but all major overall categories. Like Ali, Robeson transcended beyond race.
In many ways, both Robeson and Garvey shared a common message. They both challenged Africans and African Americans to grow up, to transcend Jim Crow/colonialism politics, and to finally take their places on the liberation side of the world stage.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: Garvey is one of my personal heroes. He influenced many blacks of the past, as well as today. He had tremendous natural charisma and leadership skills.
Likewise, Robeson influenced people such as, Louis Farrakhan, Sydney Poitier, Malcohm X. He literally shattered the White supremacist stereotypes of the time, in not one, but all major overall categories. Like Ali, Robeson transcended beyond race.
In many ways, both Robeson and Garvey shared a common message. They both challenged Africans and African Americans to grow up, to transcend Jim Crow/colonialism politics, and to finally take their places on the liberation side of the world stage.
Which of them was it who had the great idea?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
^ Never heard or read about the UNIA (Universal Negro Improvement Association)?
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: Garvey is one of my personal heroes. He influenced many blacks of the past, as well as today. He had tremendous natural charisma and leadership skills.
Likewise, Robeson influenced people such as, Louis Farrakhan, Sydney Poitier, Malcohm X. He literally shattered the White supremacist stereotypes of the time, in not one, but all major overall categories. Like Ali, Robeson transcended beyond race.
In many ways, both Robeson and Garvey shared a common message. They both challenged Africans and African Americans to grow up, to transcend Jim Crow/colonialism politics, and to finally take their places on the liberation side of the world stage.
Which of them was it who had the great idea?
IMO, they both did, but alone, they were incomplete. Had Garvey, Robeson, DuBois, Carver, and Booker T. Washington combined, they would have been a supreme team, and virtually unstoppable.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
^ Dont be silly. It was and remains Garvey in a universal and Pan African context.
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
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Again, the history is little bit more complicated. Robeson's role in Emperor Jones did more to propagate the noble savage stereotype; also I think Old Man River had its fair share of stereotypes. Look, I am not saying Robeson was not anti-colonial (actually he was more anti-capitalist which is not necessarily the same thing), but I think we have to look critically at all our heroes especially the ones on the left and appreciate the differences.
It is important because I will contend that not all fought for the same thing. Our academia is dominated by the left and they like to gloss over the serious contradictions of certain black historical leaders whether Dubois, King or CLR James etc. But read Race First by Professor Tony Martin, it's a good look at the Garvey movement and the different black personalities and how they reacted to Garvey. I think Malcolm X was more influenced by the Garveyite Carlos Cooks and John H Clarke. To me Ali was a great boxer, nothing else. Far cry from his rebellious youth he is now a celebrity, even presents America now at the 2000 Olympics, this is just sad. It seems "uncle tom" George Foreman won in the end. Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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The Impact of Marcus Garvey by John Henrik Clarke
When Marcus Garvey died in 1940 the role of the British Empire was already being challenged by India and the rising expectations of her African colonies. Marcus Garvey's avocation of African redemption and the restoration of the African state's sovereign political entity in world affairs was still a dream without fulfillment.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, the United States would enter, in a formal way, what had been up to that date strictly a European conflict. Marcus Garvey's prophesy about the European scramble to maintain dominance over the whole world was now a reality. The people of Africa and Asia had joined in this conflict but with different hopes, different dreams and many misgivings. Africans throughout the colonial world were mounting campaigns against this system which had robbed them of their nation-ness and their basic human-ness. The discovery and the reconsideration of the teachings of the honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey were being rediscovered and reconsidered by a large number of African people as this world conflict deepened.
In 1945, when World War II was drawing to a close the 5th Pan-African Congress was called in Manchester, England. Some of the conventioneers were: George Padmore, Kwame Nkrumah, W.E.B. Dubois, Nnamdi Azikiwe of Nigeria, and Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya. Up to this time the previous Pan-African Congresses had mainly called for improvements in the educational status of the Africans in the colonies so that they would be prepared for self-rule when independence eventually came.
The Pan-African Congress in Manchester was radically different from all of the other congresses. For the first time Africans from Africa, Africans from the Caribbean and Africans from the United States had come together and designed a program for the future independence of Africa. Those who attended the conference were of many political persuasions and different ideologies, yet the teachings of Marcus Garvey were the main ideological basis for the 5th Pan-African Congress in Manchester, England in 1945.
Some of the conveners of this congress would return to Africa in the ensuing years to eventually lead their respective nations toward independence and beyond. In 1947, a Ghanaian student who had studied ten years in the United States, Dr. Kwame Nkrumah returned to Ghana on the invitation of Joseph B. Danquah, his former schoolmaster. Nkrumah would later become Prime Minister. In his fight for the complete independence for the Gold Coast later to be known as Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah acknowledged his political indebtedness to the political teachings of Marcus Garvey.
On September 7, 1957, Ghana became a free self-governing nation, the first member of the British Commonwealth of Nations to become self-governing. Ghana would later develop a Black Star Line patterned after the maritime dreams of Marcus Garvey. My point here is that the African Independence Explosion, which started with the independence of Ghana, was symbolically and figuratively bringing the hopes of Marcus Garvey alive.
In the Caribbean Islands the concept of Federation and Political union of all the islands was now being looked upon as a realizable possibility. Some constitutional reforms and changing attitudes, born of this awareness, were improving the life of the people of these islands.
In the United States the Supreme Court's decision of 1954, outlawing segregation in school systems was greeted with mixed feelings of hope and skepticism by African-Americans. A year after this decision the Montgomery Bus Boycott, the Freedom Rides and the demand for equal pay for Black teachers that subsequently became a demand for equal education for all, would become part of the central force that would set the fight for liberation in motion.
The enemies of Africans, the world over were gathering their counter-forces while a large number of them pretended to be sympathetic to the African's cause. Some of these pretenders, both Black and White, were F.B.I. and other agents of the government whose mission it was to frustrate and destroy the Civil Rights Movement. In a different way the same thing was happening in Africa. The coups and counter-coups kept most African states from developing into the strong independent and sovereign states they had hoped to become.
While the Africans had gained control over their state's apparatus, the colonialist's still controlled the economic apparatus of most African states. Africans were discovering to their amazement that a large number of the Africans, who had studied abroad were a detriment to the aims and goals of their nation. None of them had been trained to rule an African state by the use of the best of African traditional forms and strategies. As a result African states, in the main, became imitations of European states and most of their leaders could justifiably be called Europeans with black faces. They came to power without improving the lot of their people and these elitist governments continue until this day.
In most cases what went wrong was that as these leaders failed to learn the lessons of self-reliance and power preparation as advocated by Marcus Garvey and in different ways by Booker T. Washington, W.E.B Dubois, Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X. Africa became infiltrated by foreign agents. Africans had forgotten, if they knew at all, that Africa is the world's richest continent, repository of the greatest mineral wealth in the world. They had not asked themselves nor answered the most critical question. If Africa is the world's richest continent, why is it so full of poor people? Marcus Garvey advocated that Africans control the wealth of Africa. He taught that control, control of resources, control of self, control of nation, requires preparation, Garveyism was about total preparation.
There is still no unified force in Africa calling attention to the need for this kind of preparation. This preparation calls for a new kind of education if Africans are to face the reality of their survival.
Africans in the United States must remember that the slave ships brought no West Indians, no Caribbeans, no Jamaicans or Trinidadians or Barbadians to this hemisphere. The slave ships brought only African people and most of us took the semblance of nationality from the places where slave ships dropped us off. In the 500 year process of oppression the Europeans have displaced our God, our culture, and our traditions. They have violated our women to the extent that they have created a bastard race who is confused as to whether to be loyal to its mother's people or its fathers people and for the most part they remain loyal to neither. I do not think African people can succeed in the world until the hear again Marcus Garvey's call: AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS, THOSE AT HOME AND ABROAD.
We must regain our confidence in ourselves as a people and learn again the methods and arts of controlling nations. We must hear again Marcus Garvey calling out to us: UP! UP! YOU MIGHTY RACE! YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU WILL!
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
^You forget the time. In those days, movies with blacks were whites with black face. Jews played most of the native american roles also. Remember the Jew named, Al Jolson? Their stereotypes were far worst then anything Robeson did. The FACT is, Robeson often rewrote many of his script to remove blatant racist lines and actions. No other black in the ENTIRE WORLD was doing this.
Robeson also rewrote the lines to Old Man River. Check out the Temptations remake of it.
In many ways, Robeson was as much as an intellectual as DuBois, with the difference being Robeson was so talented in many more areas.
I've read Tony Martin's book years ago, and I've read everything from or about Garvey also.
Muhammad Ali was very much more then a mere boxer. Ali transcends sports. If it were not for him, athletes today would not be commanding their multi-million dollar paychecks. On his return, Foreman did nothing but a second rate Ali impersonation. He too, owes everything to Ali and he has admitted to as much. Check out any major sports event where Ali is present. The action will stop and all the athletes stop to pay their respects to him. Ali told the man he wasn't going to fight their war. For this, he sacrificed his greatest years of boxing by being banned for not going to Vietnam. Many blacks of the time did not have this kind of courage.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: The Impact of Marcus Garvey by John Henrik Clarke
When Marcus Garvey died in 1940 the role of the British Empire was already being challenged by India and the rising expectations of her African colonies. Marcus Garvey's avocation of African redemption and the restoration of the African state's sovereign political entity in world affairs was still a dream without fulfillment.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, the United States would enter, in a formal way, what had been up to that date strictly a European conflict. Marcus Garvey's prophesy about the European scramble to maintain dominance over the whole world was now a reality. The people of Africa and Asia had joined in this conflict but with different hopes, different dreams and many misgivings. Africans throughout the colonial world were mounting campaigns against this system which had robbed them of their nation-ness and their basic human-ness. The discovery and the reconsideration of the teachings of the honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey were being rediscovered and reconsidered by a large number of African people as this world conflict deepened.
In 1945, when World War II was drawing to a close the 5th Pan-African Congress was called in Manchester, England. Some of the conventioneers were: George Padmore, Kwame Nkrumah, W.E.B. Dubois, Nnamdi Azikiwe of Nigeria, and Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya. Up to this time the previous Pan-African Congresses had mainly called for improvements in the educational status of the Africans in the colonies so that they would be prepared for self-rule when independence eventually came.
The Pan-African Congress in Manchester was radically different from all of the other congresses. For the first time Africans from Africa, Africans from the Caribbean and Africans from the United States had come together and designed a program for the future independence of Africa. Those who attended the conference were of many political persuasions and different ideologies, yet the teachings of Marcus Garvey were the main ideological basis for the 5th Pan-African Congress in Manchester, England in 1945.
Some of the conveners of this congress would return to Africa in the ensuing years to eventually lead their respective nations toward independence and beyond. In 1947, a Ghanaian student who had studied ten years in the United States, Dr. Kwame Nkrumah returned to Ghana on the invitation of Joseph B. Danquah, his former schoolmaster. Nkrumah would later become Prime Minister. In his fight for the complete independence for the Gold Coast later to be known as Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah acknowledged his political indebtedness to the political teachings of Marcus Garvey.
On September 7, 1957, Ghana became a free self-governing nation, the first member of the British Commonwealth of Nations to become self-governing. Ghana would later develop a Black Star Line patterned after the maritime dreams of Marcus Garvey. My point here is that the African Independence Explosion, which started with the independence of Ghana, was symbolically and figuratively bringing the hopes of Marcus Garvey alive.
In the Caribbean Islands the concept of Federation and Political union of all the islands was now being looked upon as a realizable possibility. Some constitutional reforms and changing attitudes, born of this awareness, were improving the life of the people of these islands.
In the United States the Supreme Court's decision of 1954, outlawing segregation in school systems was greeted with mixed feelings of hope and skepticism by African-Americans. A year after this decision the Montgomery Bus Boycott, the Freedom Rides and the demand for equal pay for Black teachers that subsequently became a demand for equal education for all, would become part of the central force that would set the fight for liberation in motion.
The enemies of Africans, the world over were gathering their counter-forces while a large number of them pretended to be sympathetic to the African's cause. Some of these pretenders, both Black and White, were F.B.I. and other agents of the government whose mission it was to frustrate and destroy the Civil Rights Movement. In a different way the same thing was happening in Africa. The coups and counter-coups kept most African states from developing into the strong independent and sovereign states they had hoped to become.
While the Africans had gained control over their state's apparatus, the colonialist's still controlled the economic apparatus of most African states. Africans were discovering to their amazement that a large number of the Africans, who had studied abroad were a detriment to the aims and goals of their nation. None of them had been trained to rule an African state by the use of the best of African traditional forms and strategies. As a result African states, in the main, became imitations of European states and most of their leaders could justifiably be called Europeans with black faces. They came to power without improving the lot of their people and these elitist governments continue until this day.
In most cases what went wrong was that as these leaders failed to learn the lessons of self-reliance and power preparation as advocated by Marcus Garvey and in different ways by Booker T. Washington, W.E.B Dubois, Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X. Africa became infiltrated by foreign agents. Africans had forgotten, if they knew at all, that Africa is the world's richest continent, repository of the greatest mineral wealth in the world. They had not asked themselves nor answered the most critical question. If Africa is the world's richest continent, why is it so full of poor people? Marcus Garvey advocated that Africans control the wealth of Africa. He taught that control, control of resources, control of self, control of nation, requires preparation, Garveyism was about total preparation.
There is still no unified force in Africa calling attention to the need for this kind of preparation. This preparation calls for a new kind of education if Africans are to face the reality of their survival.
Africans in the United States must remember that the slave ships brought no West Indians, no Caribbeans, no Jamaicans or Trinidadians or Barbadians to this hemisphere. The slave ships brought only African people and most of us took the semblance of nationality from the places where slave ships dropped us off. In the 500 year process of oppression the Europeans have displaced our God, our culture, and our traditions. They have violated our women to the extent that they have created a bastard race who is confused as to whether to be loyal to its mother's people or its fathers people and for the most part they remain loyal to neither. I do not think African people can succeed in the world until the hear again Marcus Garvey's call: AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS, THOSE AT HOME AND ABROAD.
We must regain our confidence in ourselves as a people and learn again the methods and arts of controlling nations. We must hear again Marcus Garvey calling out to us: UP! UP! YOU MIGHTY RACE! YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU WILL!
While Booker T.Washington advocated self relaince for the black man, W.E.B. DuBois did not, but rather, integration. It was DuBois who worked along with whites to trap Garvey and set him up for mail fraud and ultimately, deportation.
Garvey wasn't perfect. He lacked many of the skills he required to run the Black Star Ship company he started. He trusted no one to delegate to, so he attempted to do it all himself. Perfect example of the need to consolidate resources. Had Garvey joined forces with Robeson, he would have been much better prepared by having someone in which to offload some of his responsibility. That someone could not have been DuBois, because DuBois was Pro-Integraton and not for leaving America to return to Africa which is part of the reason he helped set Garvey up.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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With respect, and to his memory, Robeson was, in the main, revered as a theatrical actor with a talent capacity for operatic singing.
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
You're clearly a great admirer of Robeson. I can respect this, but it is true that he did accept the racist lines in Old Man River and played stereotypical roles in productions such as Emporer Jones.
It would be naïve to think he would unite with Garvey since he was a communist, two different programs. You say you read everything on Garvey yet you accept the paranoid, egocentric, pre Martin characterisations of him found in works like Cronon et al. Martin debunked all of this. No man is perfect yes, but we should not make up faults but go where the documentation lead us.
Also it wasn't Dubois alone that helped to undermine Garvey but the entire civil rights leadership at the time, their descendants today are still playing their buffer role. You and I will also disagree on Ali. He refused to fight the "white man's war", at least so he stated. Yet today, none can deny he is a far cry from his early militant anti-establishment persona. In other words he has been co-opted by the system. Maybe if he was in full control of his mental faculties he woudlnt have allowed the white media to turn him from a militant black figure into a kind of toy, a lovable funny, former great boxer.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by AMR1: Some here keep on saying you have nothing to do with the culture of AE, therefore even if you are people are direct descendants of AE. yOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO THEM Because 1-You don't live by their culture 2-You have intermixed with other races.
^Just havin laughs, what a freakin hypocrite. [/QB]
Mind you, u say to us Nubians and Egyptians, while you yourself who wants to claim our ancestors civilization don't have noting with their culture. Neither do the people of South Sudan and Ethiopia who may be related to AE, but defintely don't adhere or live based on the culture of the AE either.
remember ancient Egyptians are a result of libyans, ethiopians and levant tribes settling in Egypt, ten thousand years ago, all those groups are their relatives. In the last 2500 years it was migration from the North that influenced Egypt racial make up, more. Unlike migration that occured over 10 thousand years ago.
Posts: 1090 | From: Merowe-Nubia | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: None of these diminishes the high level of his achievements, and his dedication and personal sacrifice for Africa and African-Americans alike.
“Every artist, every scientist, must decide now where he stands. He has no alternative. There is no standing above the conflict on Olympian heights. There are no impartial observers. Through the destruction, in certain countries, of the greatest of man’s literary heritage, through the propagation of false ideas of racial and national superiority, the artist, the scientist, the writer is challenged. The struggle invades the formerly cloistered halls of our universities and other seats of learning. The battle front is everywhere. There is no sheltered rear.”
We will have differing views on Robeson's place in history. I think how the world is organised today warrants a serious revision of all those blacks (including King) who rejected Garvey's philosophy. A revision of their proper place as black leaders with sufficient insight and vision, since the philosophy and world they envisioned did not materialise, and from looks of it never will. In other words history confirmed Garvey, mocked Robeson et al.
My point exactly..COONS never win!! They, like Martin Luther King and others were shortsighted whores.
Posts: 343 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: The Impact of Marcus Garvey by John Henrik Clarke
When Marcus Garvey died in 1940 the role of the British Empire was already being challenged by India and the rising expectations of her African colonies. Marcus Garvey's avocation of African redemption and the restoration of the African state's sovereign political entity in world affairs was still a dream without fulfillment.
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, the United States would enter, in a formal way, what had been up to that date strictly a European conflict. Marcus Garvey's prophesy about the European scramble to maintain dominance over the whole world was now a reality. The people of Africa and Asia had joined in this conflict but with different hopes, different dreams and many misgivings. Africans throughout the colonial world were mounting campaigns against this system which had robbed them of their nation-ness and their basic human-ness. The discovery and the reconsideration of the teachings of the honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey were being rediscovered and reconsidered by a large number of African people as this world conflict deepened.
In 1945, when World War II was drawing to a close the 5th Pan-African Congress was called in Manchester, England. Some of the conventioneers were: George Padmore, Kwame Nkrumah, W.E.B. Dubois, Nnamdi Azikiwe of Nigeria, and Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya. Up to this time the previous Pan-African Congresses had mainly called for improvements in the educational status of the Africans in the colonies so that they would be prepared for self-rule when independence eventually came.
The Pan-African Congress in Manchester was radically different from all of the other congresses. For the first time Africans from Africa, Africans from the Caribbean and Africans from the United States had come together and designed a program for the future independence of Africa. Those who attended the conference were of many political persuasions and different ideologies, yet the teachings of Marcus Garvey were the main ideological basis for the 5th Pan-African Congress in Manchester, England in 1945.
Some of the conveners of this congress would return to Africa in the ensuing years to eventually lead their respective nations toward independence and beyond. In 1947, a Ghanaian student who had studied ten years in the United States, Dr. Kwame Nkrumah returned to Ghana on the invitation of Joseph B. Danquah, his former schoolmaster. Nkrumah would later become Prime Minister. In his fight for the complete independence for the Gold Coast later to be known as Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah acknowledged his political indebtedness to the political teachings of Marcus Garvey.
On September 7, 1957, Ghana became a free self-governing nation, the first member of the British Commonwealth of Nations to become self-governing. Ghana would later develop a Black Star Line patterned after the maritime dreams of Marcus Garvey. My point here is that the African Independence Explosion, which started with the independence of Ghana, was symbolically and figuratively bringing the hopes of Marcus Garvey alive.
In the Caribbean Islands the concept of Federation and Political union of all the islands was now being looked upon as a realizable possibility. Some constitutional reforms and changing attitudes, born of this awareness, were improving the life of the people of these islands.
In the United States the Supreme Court's decision of 1954, outlawing segregation in school systems was greeted with mixed feelings of hope and skepticism by African-Americans. A year after this decision the Montgomery Bus Boycott, the Freedom Rides and the demand for equal pay for Black teachers that subsequently became a demand for equal education for all, would become part of the central force that would set the fight for liberation in motion.
The enemies of Africans, the world over were gathering their counter-forces while a large number of them pretended to be sympathetic to the African's cause. Some of these pretenders, both Black and White, were F.B.I. and other agents of the government whose mission it was to frustrate and destroy the Civil Rights Movement. In a different way the same thing was happening in Africa. The coups and counter-coups kept most African states from developing into the strong independent and sovereign states they had hoped to become.
While the Africans had gained control over their state's apparatus, the colonialist's still controlled the economic apparatus of most African states. Africans were discovering to their amazement that a large number of the Africans, who had studied abroad were a detriment to the aims and goals of their nation. None of them had been trained to rule an African state by the use of the best of African traditional forms and strategies. As a result African states, in the main, became imitations of European states and most of their leaders could justifiably be called Europeans with black faces. They came to power without improving the lot of their people and these elitist governments continue until this day.
In most cases what went wrong was that as these leaders failed to learn the lessons of self-reliance and power preparation as advocated by Marcus Garvey and in different ways by Booker T. Washington, W.E.B Dubois, Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X. Africa became infiltrated by foreign agents. Africans had forgotten, if they knew at all, that Africa is the world's richest continent, repository of the greatest mineral wealth in the world. They had not asked themselves nor answered the most critical question. If Africa is the world's richest continent, why is it so full of poor people? Marcus Garvey advocated that Africans control the wealth of Africa. He taught that control, control of resources, control of self, control of nation, requires preparation, Garveyism was about total preparation.
There is still no unified force in Africa calling attention to the need for this kind of preparation. This preparation calls for a new kind of education if Africans are to face the reality of their survival.
Africans in the United States must remember that the slave ships brought no West Indians, no Caribbeans, no Jamaicans or Trinidadians or Barbadians to this hemisphere. The slave ships brought only African people and most of us took the semblance of nationality from the places where slave ships dropped us off. In the 500 year process of oppression the Europeans have displaced our God, our culture, and our traditions. They have violated our women to the extent that they have created a bastard race who is confused as to whether to be loyal to its mother's people or its fathers people and for the most part they remain loyal to neither. I do not think African people can succeed in the world until the hear again Marcus Garvey's call: AFRICA FOR THE AFRICANS, THOSE AT HOME AND ABROAD.
We must regain our confidence in ourselves as a people and learn again the methods and arts of controlling nations. We must hear again Marcus Garvey calling out to us: UP! UP! YOU MIGHTY RACE! YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU WILL!
While Booker T.Washington advocated self relaince for the black man, W.E.B. DuBois did not, but rather, integration. It was DuBois who worked along with whites to trap Garvey and set him up for mail fraud and ultimately, deportation.
Garvey wasn't perfect. He lacked many of the skills he required to run the Black Star Ship company he started. He trusted no one to delegate to, so he attempted to do it all himself. Perfect example of the need to consolidate resources. Had Garvey joined forces with Robeson, he would have been much better prepared by having someone in which to offload some of his responsibility. That someone could not have been DuBois, because DuBois was Pro-Integraton and not for leaving America to return to Africa which is part of the reason he helped javascript:void(0) Coolset Garvey up.
^^^YEEEEEP!!!!! You hit it right on the nose.
Posts: 343 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben08: [q] You're clearly a great admirer of Robeson. I can respect this, but it is true that he did accept the racist lines in Old Man River and played stereotypical roles in productions such as Emporer Jones.
What's not to respect? A slave's son who obtained his law degree with honors. Acknowledged as one of the greatest singers in history Acknowledged as one of the greatest black actors in history Learned to speak 20 languages His achievements would be considered monumental even by today's standards. Robeson was the JACK JOHNSON of his era and areas of athletics, acting, singing, and black activistism.
It would be naïve to think he would unite with Garvey since he was a communist, two different programs. You say you read everything on Garvey yet you accept the paranoid, egocentric, pre Martin characterisations of him found in works like Cronon et al. Martin debunked all of this. No man is perfect yes, but we should not make up faults but go where the documentation lead us.
You lack a real sense of the black politicial climate of the time. Robeson WAS NOT a communist, although like many blacks of the era (as well as today), engaged many Jewish communists. If you think Denzel Washington, Barack Obama, or Spike Lee aren't encountering Russian Jews during their careers, you'd better take a deeper look. It's very difficult (if not impossible) to be a singer, actor, politician, businessman, Movie/Song producer, and not run into and have to deal with Jewish communists, even today. Even Berry Gordy had to approach these Jews to obtain funding to produce, Lady Sings The Blues. He had to turn over Motown to do it. If you've read Tony Martin's book, he does a fair job of skimming thru this connection, but does not discuss the socialist leanings of these Jews. Likewise, it is very difficult to obtain business loans and fund enterprise without dealing with the Jews who are mainly Marx socialist/communists as Israel is today. It is no mystery that Garvey had many difficulties running Black Star. He was but one man. How can only one man create a 1 million+ organization, do all the planning, run the books of the business, handle the logistics of harboring, repair, maintenance, and staffing of a ship alone. All while Campaign for funding, etc. and at the displeasure of the powerful white and Jewish (and Negro) elements who worked overtime to bring him down. Garvey himself admitted this in HIS BIO. First hand feedback on lessons learned. He stated he only wish he had had more people he could depend on and delegate to.
From Garvey's Jamaica BIO;
Such fame among negroes was too much for other race leaders and politicians to tolerate. My downfall was planned by my enemies. They laid all kinds of traps for me. They scattered their spies among the employees of the Black Star Line and the Universal Negro Improvement Association. Our office records were stolen. Employees started to be openly dishonest; we could get no convictions against them; even if on complaint they were held by a Magistrate, they were dismissed by the Grand Jury. The ships' officers started to pile up thousands of dollars of debts against the company without the knowledge of the officers of the corporation. Our ships were damaged at sea, and there was a general riot of wreck and ruin. Officials of the Universal Negro Improvement Association also began to steal and be openly dishonest. I had to dismiss them. They joined my enemies, and thus I had an endless fight on my hands to save the ideals of the association and carry out our program for the race. My negro enemies, finding that they alone could not destroy me, resorted to misrepresenting me to the leaders of the white race, several of whom, without proper investigation, also opposed me.
With robberies from within and from without, the Black Star Line was forced to suspend active business in December, 1921. While I was on a business trip to the West Indies in the Spring of 1921, the Black Star Line received the blow from which it was unable to recover. A sum of $25,000 was paid by one of the officers of the corporation to a man to purchase a ship, but the ship was never obtained and the money was never returned. The company was defrauded of a further sum of $11,000. Through such actions on the part of dishonest men in the shipping business, the Black Star Line received its first setback. This resulted in my being indicted for using the United States mails to defraud investors in the company. I was subsequently convicted and sentenced to five years in a Federal penitentiary. My trial is a matter of history. I know I was not given a square deal, because my indictment was the result of a "frame-up" among my political and business enemies. I had to conduct my own case in court because of the peculiar position in which I found myself. I had millions of friends and a large number of enemies. I wanted a colored attorney to handle my case, but there was none I could trust. I feel that I have been denied justice because of prejudice. Yet I have an abundance of faith in the courts of America, and I hope yet to obtain justice on my appeal.
Also it wasn't Dubois alone that helped to undermine Garvey but the entire civil rights leadership at the time,
This is partially correct, but akin to saying, Bush isn't responsible for the Iraq war. DuBois's and the NAACP Funders set BuBois to the task. The communists behind the NAACP did not favor a Return To Africa, or Negro Self Reliance movement. their descendants today are still playing their buffer role. You and I will also disagree on Ali. He refused to fight the "white man's war", at least so he stated. Yet today, none can deny he is a far cry from his early militant anti-establishment persona. In other words he has been co-opted by the system. Maybe if he was in full control of his mental faculties he woudlnt have allowed the white media to turn him from a militant black figure into a kind of toy, a lovable funny, former great boxer. [/q]
Once again, you should more closely examine the era. Prior to Ali, boxers were quiet, complacent, and often exploited. The great Joe Louis sets a perfect example. When inducted, He volunteered to join the Army during WW-II, fought exibition matches and donated the proceeds to the US Army war fund. These proceeds totalled millions of dollars. http://www.fighttoys.com/Louis%20war%20poster.htm
He fought Nazi Germany's Max Schelling as a symbolic representation of America's "melting pot". After the war, the US repaid him for his patriotic effort by hitting him with back taxes. As a result, in spite of Kennedy later receding the debt, Joe Louis died penniless accepting charitty and pats on the head by whites as a greeter in Las Vegas.
Ali upset this whole picture of black fighters and blacks in general being complacent to the white man. Unlike Sonny Liston, Joe Louis, Floyd Patterson, and many other blacks of the time, Ali brought back the boldness and confidence of Jack Johnson and completely complimented the Black Pride movement of the time. This was a tremendous transitionary period for the black race. Ali became the best known person around the globe. This is how legends and myths are made. In 5000 years they'll speak of Ali in the same matter people speak of Hercules.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
You know, these things have a way of losing essence. Are we talking about personal achievements or contributions to black liberation? Because I can appreciate the personal achievements of people like Dubois, but as an integrationist of the communist persuasion, I can't respect Robeson for his amazing short sightedness and stance against Garvey. And if he was, as you imply, only pandering to show business Jews that would make him just as much a traitor as Dubois, in my book. But I don't think he was merely playing a communist role, his philosophy was consistent with the communist movement. But you know, this kind of apologia is typical of the black left today; it might be an embarrassment for some since Marxism is so completely discredited, now we are told that everybody who adhered to the philosophy (from King to Mandela) weren't really communists. LOL If the Soviet Union had won they would be falling over themselves to claim who was the best communist.
"Garvey wasn't perfect. He lacked many of the skills he required to run the Black Star Ship company he started. He trusted no one to delegate to, so he attempted to do it all himself"
The quote you posted does not support the typical caricature of Garvey as an egocentrist running everything by himself. What it proves was that he did have others running the business but they turned out to be spies and saboteurs. Why fault him for firing them? Unless you have evidence to contrary that they were unfairly treated and Garvey was really a paranoid conspiracy nut. He was his own defence because his lawyer wanted him to plead guilty; have you read his son's response to the PBS slander/documentary? In any event whether he represented himself or not wouldnt change the outcome since it was a Stalinist show trial. I can't see the fault anywhere.
And the point I was trying to make with Dubois not being the only one was that the Garvey Must Go Campaign actually included the entire anti-Garvey left, and I don't think you can't exonerate Robeson because he was one of those not in the forefront. As for Ali, I don't measure the greatness of a black man by his ability to get multimillion dollar deals etc. And his previous boldness and black assertiveness aside, what you fail to address is just how far he has come to a being a lovable, non-threatening, celebrity to the point where he can now represent America at the Olympics. What has changed? Certainly not America?
Now I am not trying to convice you of anything I have stated only presenting my views on all of them.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by akoben08: [q] You know, these things have a way of losing essence. Are we talking about personal achievements or contributions to black liberation? Because I can appreciate the personal achievements of people like Dubois, but as an integrationist of the communist persuasion, I can't respect Robeson for his amazing short sightedness and stance against Garvey. And if he was, as you imply, only pandering to show business Jews that would make him just as much a traitor as Dubois, in my book. But I don't think he was merely playing a communist role, his philosophy was consistent with the communist movement. But you know, this kind of apologia is typical of the black left today; it might be an embarrassment for some since Marxism is so completely discredited, now we are told that everybody who adhered to the philosophy (from King to Mandela) weren't really communists. LOL If the Soviet Union had won they would be falling over themselves to claim who was the best communist.
Who says they haven't won. Most of the Russian communists have migrated to Israel, Europe, and the US. They remain socialist as is most of Europe, Canada, and Israel. Isn't Israel, a socialist country, the US's number 1 ally? Do we not provide this communist state with 100s billions of dollars annually? Isn't communist China on the US's, most favored trading partner list? Isn't NAFTA promoting free trade between the US and socialist Canada? It's very likely the internet service you are using is controlled by socialist zionists. The monetary system you utilize is controlled by the same. The TV and movie programs you watch are developed, produced by these socialist or zionist supporting them. Are you sure they lost the cold war? From an economic or control view, it certainly doesn't appear so.
"Garvey wasn't perfect. He lacked many of the skills he required to run the Black Star Ship company he started. He trusted no one to delegate to, so he attempted to do it all himself"
The quote you posted does not support the typical caricature of Garvey as an egocentrist running everything by himself.
The word, egocentric is your word. Please don't attempt to skew the original wording by introducing non-applicable descriptors that were not originally implied. I previously stated Garvey could not delegate because he had no one he could trust. His BIO comfirms this. There is no evidence that Garvey was either capitalist, socialist, or communist. Had he succeeded in his return to Africa movement, it's a strong possibility the new government might have started out with strong socialist elements, since agriculture and industry take time to kick start and become sustainable.
What it proves was that he did have others running the business but they turned out to be spies and saboteurs. Why fault him for firing them? Unless you have evidence to contrary that they were unfairly treated and Garvey was really a paranoid conspiracy nut. If Garvey was paranoid, it was well justified. He was being assaulted from every direction. Garvey and Idi Amin has much in common. He was his own defence because his lawyer wanted him to plead guilty; have you read his son's response to the PBS slander/documentary? In any event whether he represented himself or not wouldnt change the outcome since it was a Stalinist show trial. I can't see the fault anywhere.
His trial was a sham. The cards had been stacked for reasons discussed previously. Later, DuBois voiced regret about his role in it, and for having been manipulated.
And the point I was trying to make with Dubois not being the only one was that the Garvey Must Go Campaign actually included the entire anti-Garvey left, and I don't think you can't exonerate Robeson because he was one of those not in the forefront. Robeson WAS NOT a communist. In those days, EVERYONE who opposed the American way was labeled Communist/Socialist with maybe the exception of Jack Johnson who never took a political stance. Due to the times, many blacks were approached and explored the IDEAS of socialism since capitalism was used to explot them. The elements of communism in black communities in the 30,40,50, and 60s was so pervasive, it prompted the US to mint one of the 1st black coins, The Booker T. Washington, and George W. Carver silver half dollars. The coins were sold to the black community with the proceeds of the sale used by the FBI/CIA to combat communism in the black community. Regardless of this, it would have not stopped Garvey from accepting help from a Robeson. Robeson was as much of a target for counterintelligence as Garvey. He too was investigated and banned from several areas. Robeson represented the kind of trust, intelligence, and influence that could have merged well into expanding Garvey's efforts in the same way that the planned merger between Malcohm X and Martin Luther King. The only prominent black leader at the time that was never banned was W.E.B. DuBois, and for obvious reasons. As for Ali, I don't measure the greatness of a black man by his ability to get multimillion dollar deals etc. And his previous boldness and black assertiveness aside, what you fail to address is just how far he has come to a being a lovable, non-threatening, celebrity to the point where he can now represent America at the Olympics. What has changed? Certainly not America?
As you recall, Ali brought the most famous fight in history to Africa. The Africans loved him. No one else had even done this, and no one else has done it as effectively since.Ali's greatness is already unquestionably in the history books. His affect on the world's black population is a historic given and as powerful as James Brown's, I'm Black and I'm Proud contribution. Revisionists are in the noise.
Now I am not trying to convice you of anything I have stated only presenting my views on all of them. [/q]
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Look, let's not get into the intricacies of Zionism and US aid to Israel to score points. The point I was trying to make was that Communism as a philosophical and economic ideology, as preached by the black left, lost. Their philosophy was that history would climax in an interracial alliance against capitalism. This has not materialised. Instead the world is as racially and ethnically divided as ever, globalisation today has at its core predator capitalism (neo-liberialism) though it has aspects of welfarism and protectionism, but this si not the same as the cold war and is not the world black Marxists predicted.
So we can go off into the philosophical foundations of Zionism and the various banking and financial interests today connected to it; but this would be just pointless exchange of info we both know already.
"I previously stated Garvey could not delegate because he had no one he could trust. His BIO comfirms this."
You are really looking to score points. Your original intent was not just to show that Garvey could not delegate because he had no one to trust, you said he wanted to do it all by himself though lacking the skills, trusted no one, and this to you is a "fault". All I am saying this that this is simplistic(and it is consistent with caricatures of him), not supported by teh quote and given the circumstances I see no "fault" here.
As for Garvey's economic philosophy, the material is there so we don’t have to speculate. Like all great men he was not dogmatic and could appreciated elements of all. But it is quite clear from the material that his state would resemble a racialist one along lines of robber barons Carnegie, Rockefeller etc, not Communist Russia. Yes capitalists see the value of socialism too.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
You keep editing your post, now I'm seeing new points being made.
"If Garvey was paranoid, it was well justified. He was being assaulted from every direction. Garvey and Idi Amin has much in common."
Then we had no disagreement on this issue. Case closed there. But why do you keep thinking Robeson would want to offer help to Garvey when he clearly did not share his philosophy?
Re Robeson and communism. First, as far as intelligence goes his naïvety in believing the promise of communism and social equality would put him in same group as Dubois. To me academic achievement is not sufficient show of intelligence. Is Condi intelligent? But your position is so similar to the black leftist apologia: all blacks designated communists by America were not really communist, they were just anti-exploitation of America plus all such philosophies were branded as communism by the FBI anyway. Yes, every anti-American philosophy was a targeted and sometimes loosely branded as "communism", but they eventually made distinctions because there were. You must admit that as hated as McCarthy was, he was right majority of times. But I can't see how you still defend Robeson against the communist tag when a look at his philosophy and life whether on inter racialism, Soviet Union and alliance with communist white Jews or whites? But this you say was all a front so I can never really prove anything to you.
I doubt there would have been any planned merger between King and Malcolm since the Jews behind King would not have forgiven Malcolm for his statements against them.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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It goes with out saying that AMR1's Arab bias is at the root of his infatuation with lighter skinned people than himself, so I'd let him slide. He merely submits to Arab peer pressure and is willfully submissive to their ideology, which is why he takes the comments of a handful of Africans and caricatures the entire continent while imposing his distorted concepts on AAs and other continental Africans as if we/they need to adhere to them. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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that was a fucked up statement *raising eyebrow*
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My point exactly..COONS never win!! They, like Martin Luther King and others were shortsighted whores.
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