Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. et al: Are lying Duplicitous Sons-of-Bitches: I take particular offense that the son-of-bitches that were responsible for the almost total destruction of people in the Americas, and the bringers of the vileness that exists there today, would now turn their attention to further spreading the lies of other Europeans in such a bare-faced way. At least the other A-holes make an attempt to dress-up their B.S.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. et al: Are lying Duplicitous Sons-of-Bitches: I take particular offense that the son-of-bitches that were responsible for the almost total destruction of people in the Americas, and the bringers of the vileness that exists there today, would now turn their attention to further spreading the lies of other Europeans in such a bare-faced way. At least the other A-holes make an attempt to dress-up their B.S.
So you're implicating Greeks and other Southern Europeans, don't carry recent Neolithic African admixture? Particularly E3b1, Benin hbs, L1, L2 lineages and some A? Which in result
The overall contributions from Asia and Africa were estimated to be around two-thirds and one-third, respectively. Simulations have shown (7) that this hypothesis explains quite well the discrepancy between trees obtained by maximum likelihood and neighbor joining.
Genes, peoples, and languages--L. Luca Cavalli-SforzaPosts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here is why: Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. et al: Are lying Duplicitous Sons-of-Bitches
Quote: Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterranean’s, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable.
Turks, like ALL other White people come from Asia. There could not be a reasonable expectation that Turks would significantly differ from other White people. Just as Africans are genetically similar, so are White people.
Quote: Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations.
Da – Kurds and Armenians ARE Turks; and the Ottoman Empire spread Turkish genes all over North Africa and the Middle East. Furthermore, Turks are the dominant force in all of those areas today – including Arabia.
Quote - There is no HLA genetic trace of the so-called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases.
This one is particularly stupid: Arians (Aryans are Persian nobles), are NOT “THE” White people, they are a TRIBE of White people. They did NOT enter Europe, and ONLY these A-holes seem to think that they did. Arians entered India and Iran; The documentation of their presence there, cannot be argued, even by an A-hole Spaniard.
Quote: Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers.
On the surface, this one looks okay. But it’s not: You know these A-holes are trying to make the case that they (Spaniards) are Iberians, because of the inclusion of Basques; who are a people who claim that they are different, but who have time-and-time again, been proven to be ordinary White people. And you just know that when they say Berber, they don't mean the "Real" ones (the Black ones), they mean the Europeans-with-a-tan that call themselves Berbers.
And BTW, that’s what this whole B.S. study is about, and why Knowledgeiskey718 posted it. It’s all about perpetuating the lie that the White people in Europe are native to the land. They are not native to the land, and never were.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Here is why: Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J. et al: Are lying Duplicitous Sons-of-Bitches
Quote: Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterranean’s, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable.
Turks, like ALL other White people come from Asia. There could not be a reasonable expectation that Turks would significantly differ from other White people. Just as Africans are genetically similar, so are White people.
Quote: Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations.
Da – Kurds and Armenians ARE Turks; and the Ottoman Empire spread Turkish genes all over North Africa and the Middle East. Furthermore, Turks are the dominant force in all of those areas today – including Arabia.
Quote - There is no HLA genetic trace of the so-called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases.
This one is particularly stupid: Arians (Aryans are Persian nobles), are NOT “THE” White people, they are a TRIBE of White people. They did NOT enter Europe, and ONLY these A-holes seem to think that they did. Arians entered India and Iran; The documentation of their presence there, cannot be argued, even by an A-hole Spaniard.
Quote: Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers.
On the surface, this one looks okay. But it’s not: You know these A-holes are trying to make the case that they (Spaniards) are Iberians, because of the inclusion of Basques; who are a people who claim that they are different, but who have time-and-time again, been proven to be ordinary White people. And you just know that when they say Berber, they don't mean the "Real" ones (the Black ones), they mean the Europeans-with-a-tan that call themselves Berbers.
And BTW, that’s what this whole B.S. study is about, and why Knowledgeiskey718 posted it. It’s all about perpetuating the lie that the White people in Europe are native to the land. They are not native to the land, and never were.
Yes I know of the controversy from both sides. But Greeks and Southern Europeans still carry these lineages, as I said. As you can see from this site below.
posted
There's absolutely nothing "black" about Greeks. Any similarities between them and Ethiopians owes to the Ethiopians being substantially "white".
This is based on 120 loci (instead of just 1 that's undergone selection):
This dendrogram is based on 182 loci:
This one's based on just 8 loci, but it still shows Greeks (Cypriots) to be fully Caucasoid:
Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
One comment: 1 or 2 frames in the film sped by a little too quickly to read.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Can't make heads or tales from this statement even after reading it several times. Is it because I am a negroid????
Ethiopians substantially white??? So the Ehtiopians are white.. . . substantially??
Nothing black about greeks??? Although genetically they carry the most African genes compared to the rest of Europe.
You are good!!!!
BTW- congrats Dr. Winters
quote:Originally posted by Debunker: There's absolutely nothing "black" about Greeks. Any similarities between them and Ethiopians owes to the Ethiopians being substantially "white".
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
That sounds about right: the founding Greek fathers were blasians.
I knew Mediterraneans were dark, but am still surprised at the statement that most mediterranean people are much darker than the shown Italian boy and about the color of the lone Italian girl.
posted
^ Alive, on a slightly different note, have you ever dated a Greek chick??? You must!!!
I had one before (Amalia her name was ). Just fantastic.
They get a bit funny if you start telling them their true history though. So you might want to keep that in mind for when you get round to sampling one or two. Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Debunker: This one's based on just 8 loci, but it still shows Greeks (Cypriots) to be fully Caucasoid:
'Caucasoid' as in 'mixed' like other populations of European extraction? Or would that be moreso?
*******************************
I'd be willing to bet it's the latter. (because I've been taught that Caucasians/Europeans were mixed peoples, and so Greeks' genetic affinity to them would fit in well with that information.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:"There's absolutely nothing "black" about Greeks. Any similarities between them and Ethiopians owes to the Ethiopians being substantially "white"."
Umm, mind telling me, or sharing with the forum, what 'white' lineages Ethiopians have? I see you ignored the West African lineage too, is that part of your plan? Is there some magical way your fantasy erases genetic lineages?
East Africans and the Ancient Egyptians have a body plan described as Extremely tropically adapted,i.e,"Super Negroid". West Africans are just tropically adapted no Extreme. East Africans retain extreme tropical adaptations, which proves they're not highly mixed and their features can't be attributed to outside influence. If you say it is, why are East Africans still extremely tropically adapted and their skin can be as extremely dark as well?
If 'Caucasoid' genes exist, explain to me why South African Lembas show no features from the Middle East though they have J haplogroup at high frequencies, so-called "Caucasoid" mixture? So to you, what makes a 'Caucasoid'? Is it Genetically or skeletally?
R1 is present at frequencies of 20% in North Cameroon. So hmm, if 'Caucasoid' genes exist where are they in these populations, who have more admixture than East Africans?
Tutsis have ABSOLUTELY no west Asian admixture, yet exhibit "so called" Caucasoid features". Why?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Me loves Mike111!!! Sock it to them A-holes. For good measure a photo of Somalian born Iman Bowie, shown here with her White pimp,...oops! sorry, her husband.
SHE IS A WHITE WOMAN, FOR GODSSAKES! CAN'T YOU TELL???
Is all about who built the goddam piramides and Great Zimbabwe, and according to these A-holes it could not have been Blacks. So 'Black as soot Africans' were simply declared White's!
posted
WITH ALL THESE ‘BLACK AS SOOT BUT WHITE EAST AFRICANS,’ CAN WE BE SURE BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS BLACK?
[U.S. Senator Barack Obama, right, walks with his grandmother Sarah Hussein Obama at his father's house in Nyongoma Kogelo village, western Kenya, during a visit in Aug. 26, 2006. Obama received a hero's welcome during an emotional family reunion at his late father's hometown in western Kenya.]
[Barack Hussein Obama Sr, father of the future president of the USA]
[Barack Hussein Obama with his father]
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
[SOMALIAN BORN AYAAN HIRSI MAGAN ALI SAT MANY YEARS IN THE DUTCH PARLIAMENT FOR THE LIBERAL VVD-PARTY, BEFORE SHE WAS DISCOVERED TO BE AN ILLEGAL ALIEN!]
Ayann Hirsi Ali originally entered the Netherlands alone as a young woman under a false name and without any papers. She was born in Somalia but also lived in Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, and Kenya before becoming an undocumented immigrant in Denmark.
Reason for Immigrating: She sought to avoid an arranged marriage her parents had been pressuring her to enter.
Accomplishments:
She rose to be one of if not the most famous member of the Dutch Parliament. She was also a fellow at The American Enterprise Institute (a conservative think tank) in Washington D.C. 2005 TIME Magazine labeled her amongst the 100 Most Influential Persons of the World. 2007 Goldwater Award from the Goldwater Institute in Phoenix, Arizona at an awards ceremony attended by Senator John Kyl from Arizona who coincidentally voted against the DREAM Act only a month prior to this. Also in attendance was U.S. Rep. John Shadegg also from Arizona who received a 100% rating from the anti-immigration hate group FAIR. Think they learned something?
Posted by Damn Mexicans at 5:44 PM Labels: People With Immigrant Roots
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: hero … and illegal alien May 14, 2006 by Allahpundit
As Chris Rock said, “Prejudice makes no sense, because whoever you hate is going to end up in your family.” Not a perfect fit for the situation here — “hate” is too strong a word vis-a-vis illegals — but not completely inapt, either. CJ is shocked that AHA’s political opponents want to throw her to the wolves. JG is not, and offers a way out. Expect the boss to chime in tomorrow or Monday, as the lure of having two pet issues in a solar eclipse will likely prove irresistible. Lefties should pounce on this story since it’s an easy gotcha against righties who take a hard line against illegal immigration. But they won’t, of course, because Hirsi Ali’s not even on their radar. That leaves it to us, and for us, it’s a catch-22 and a no-brainer: the idea of Holland banishing the model westerner to Somalia is unconscionable, which means there’s no choice but to argue, in this case, for amnesty. And why not? I have no problem with the fact that illegal aliens who serve in the U.S. military are fast-tracked for citizenship. I’d have no problem with reducing the sentence of an inmate who escaped from prison and then spent ten years doing good works before they were caught. Extraordinary service warrants extraordinary forbearance. Hirsi Ali is arguably the greatest champion of western values on the international scene right now; in refusing to tolerate Islamist intolerance, she’s … doing a job Europeans won’t do. Call it “earned citizenship.”
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
3. Schwarze Deutsche or Black Germans, found along the Danube River in Austria and Germany, in the Black Forest and, to a lesser extent, along the Rhine River, have dark hair and eyes, unlike the fairer people both north and south of them. Their descendants in America may be called either Black Dutch or Black German. The origin of their dark coloration is ancient, from the Roman army in the third and fourth centuries, C.E. The Roman army of this time period was mostly made up of German mercenary soldiers, but along the German border, the Romans preferred to station non-Germans. The army on the Danube was largely drawn from Numidian and Nubian soldiers, especially Garamante Numidians. The Garamante (called Tubu now) were Black Africans from the central Sahara. Now the Tubu live in northern Chad, eastern Niger and southern Libya. They are not usually found north of Marzuk in Fezzan or Kufra in Cyrenaica now, but in Roman times they ranged north to the central coast of Libya and to Ghadames in southern Tunisia. As well as Garamante, there were some Iranic people stationed on this frontier, especially Sarmatians (called Ossets now) and Scythians (Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible) from southern Russia and the Ukraine (Ashkenaz, the old Hebrew for Scythia, has been used for Germany in modern Hebrew by Ashkenazic Jews trying to ingratiate themselves with Germans and Austrians or trying to hide their Khazar ancestry). These African and Iranic soldiers left many descendants who tend to have black, heavy hair and dark eyes even yet.
Beethoven and Hitler are two famous examples of this group (Peanuts). It is interesting to imagine Hitler's reaction to someone telling him he probably got his heavy, black hair from Black African ancestry. Since this was so long ago, with population movement and inter-marriage, all Europeans must have some ancestry from these Black African soldiers. In sixty generations, a person could leave 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants with just two children per person each generation so long as no descendants married each other. Obviously, after a time, many descendants will marry each other, but still it works out statistically that most people from that long ago who left descendants at all are ancestors of everyone in Europe today. The tendency for people to stay in their own community explains why we can see the effects along the Danube and in the Black Forest in the people with black hair and dark eyes but do not see it far away like Iceland. The concentration is far greater at the point of origin, but the dispersion radiates out to everywhere given enough time.
++++++++++++++++++++ Source: ODR.org
Garamante in Germany... From: Mike and Gloria Nassau (gnassau@bellsouth.net) You may not know this sender.Mark as safe|Mark as unsafe Sent: Sun 1/27/02 12:39 PM To: teutoni@hotmail.com
Dear Bill Kreiner,
Very interesting question. I don't know where I picked that up, likely partof theBlack American rewriting of history in the sixties ("Black Consciousness"movement). I put Garamantes and Roman in as search terms in Googlehttp://google.comand found a lot of things.
See:http://www.ancienthistory.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/1024/news/35.html The foremost expert on the Garamantes in the Anglophone world appears to beDavid Mattingly, see:http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/data/indiv/area/idmes/MATTINGLY,David.htm
There is an email address for him there. I guess we could ask him. The following references are from http://www.ucd.ie/~classics/africa.htm under "Military" :
D.Cherry, Frontier and Society in Roman North Africa (1998) C.M.Daniels, The Garamantes of Southern Libya (1970) C.Daniels, The Frontiers: Africa. in: J.Wacher (ed), The Roman Empire(1987) E.W.B.Fentress, Numidia and the Roman Army. BAR Int. 53 (Oxford 1979) R.G.Goodchild, Le limes Tripolitanus. Journal of Roman Studies 40(1950)30-8. M.Janon, Remarques sur la frontière de Numidie.in: V.A.Maxfield, andM.J.Dobson, Roman Frontier Studies 1989 (1991) 482-484. Y. Le Bohec, La Troisième Légion Auguste (1989) Y. Le Bohec, Le auxilia (1992) B.D.Shaw, Soldiers and society: the army in Numidia (1983) M.Speidel, The Roman Army in North Africa. Journal of Roman Archaeology 5(1992) P.Trousset, Le camp de Gemellae sur le mimes de Numidie d'après les fouillesdu colonel Baradez (1947-1950). In: J.Fitz (ed), Limes. Akten des XI.Internationalen Limeskongresses (1977) 559-577. P.Trousset, Signification d'une frontière: nomades et sedentaires dans laszone du limes d'Afrique. In: W.S. Hanson, L.J.F.Keppie, Roman FrontierStudies 1979. BAR 71(iii) (1980) C.M.Wells, The problems of Desert Frontiers. Chairman's Notes on theSession. in: V.A.Maxfield, and M.J.Dobson, Roman Frontier Studies 1989(1991) 478-481. C.R.Whittaker, Frontiers of the Roman Empire. A Social and Economic Study(1997) esp. Chapters 1-3
The funny thing is that that has been out there since I published "Melungeons and Other Mestee Groups" (see:http://www.multiracial.com/readers/nassau.html ) in 1994. (search for Garamante). This is the version put on-line by the Multiracial Activist, which is the easiest to search, part of http://www.multiracial.com/issues/issues-melungeon.html
No one else has ever questioned it. I would now question the predominance of Garamantes among the Numidian and Nubian (Black)soldiers of the Roman army. The Black presence on the German frontier of the Roman Empire I believe is real, though perhaps overstated. My wife is of Black German ancestry, all four of her grandparents came to America from Germany. She has black hair, brown eyes and lobeless ears, as well as a dark complection. Nassau is her maiden name, I took it when we married. I think the lobeless ears are almost absolute proof of Black African ancestry. I have naturally flat feet and keloid scars, both of which prove non-European ancestry, both likely from Black African ancestors.
Mike
>> A Touch Of Gray <teutoni> wrote:> >
Hi Mr. Nassau:>>
I recently came across a few articles posted by you regarding "Schwarze Deutsch" people. My ancestors come from the Black Forest region of Germany,and were referred to as "Schwarz." My father has a swarthy complexion, black hair, and dark eyes. He was born in a German section of Hungary, since his ancestors migrated from the Black Forest to what is now Hungary during the 1700s. To my knowledge, they only interacted with other Germans while intheir new home.>> Your article is the first place I have ever seen mentioned anything about black troops having been stationed in this region and along the Danube River during Roman times. I was totally unaware of the Garamantes' presence there and there having been a black population in Vindobona, as well as their total absorption into the population. Can you site me any sources which describe this? Can you give me any more details on the subject? I am quite interested in learning more about this. I post on a message board called Racial Myths, and your article might be of interest.
>> Sincerely,>> Bill Kreiner
+++++++++++++++++++++
(*) Bronze figurine of a Moorish cavalrymanRoman, probably 2nd or 3rd century AD
'My initial response is to the contextualisation of the figure in Roman Britain. I would like to know more about the relative cosmopolitan make up of society at that time and the influence on the UK gene pool. Visually the figure is reminiscent of Rastafarians with its apparent dreadlocked hair and beard. I would like to see more information, perhaps an exhibition on the range and variety of hairstyles within African cultures and their meanings. That this figure was a cavalryman demonstrates there was a high level of military competence in Africa at the period which this figure represents.' Stuart Taylor, of English/Caribbean/Black British origin
This bronze figurine, originally seated on a horse, shows a Moor from the Roman province of Mauretania in North Africa. He has distinctive dreadlocks, a drooping moustache and a full beard. His eyes appear very lifelike because they are inlaid with silver. He wears leather boots and a short cloak over a tunic, and he holds his round shield in front of him. His right hand, now broken, would probably have held a spear.
Moorish cavalrymen rode without bridles and as early as the second century BC they were famous for their nimble horsemanship. They were deployed as specialist units in the Roman army, and a detachment is clearly depicted in one of the sculpted battle scenes on Trajan's Column in Rome (erected about AD 113). There they are shown fighting alongside Roman troops in the Emperor Trajan's Dacian Wars (AD 101-105).
An altar inscription tells us that one of these Moorish units, the numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum, was in Britain from the third to the fourth century AD. They were based at the fort of Aballava (Burgh-by-Sands) at the western end of Hadrian's Wall, and were probably brought over by the Emperor Septimius Severus (reigned AD 193-211), himself a North African.
K.R. Dixon and P. Southern, The Roman cavalry (London, Routledge, 1992)
A. Hyland, Equus: the horse in the Roman (London, Yale University Press, 1990)
P.A. Holder, The Roman army in Britain (London, Batsford, 1982)
A. Hyland, Training the Roman cavalry (Stroud, Glos., Sutton Publishing, 1993)
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Knowledgeiskey718: Umm, mind telling me, or sharing with the forum, what 'white' lineages Ethiopians have? I see you ignored the West African lineage too, is that part of your plan? Is there some magical way your fantasy erases genetic lineages?
East Africans and the Ancient Egyptians have a body plan described as Extremely tropically adapted,i.e,"Super Negroid". West Africans are just tropically adapted no Extreme. East Africans retain extreme tropical adaptations, which proves they're not highly mixed and their features can't be attributed to outside influence. If you say it is, why are East Africans still extremely tropically adapted and their skin can be as extremely dark as well?
If 'Caucasoid' genes exist, explain to me why South African Lembas show no features from the Middle East though they have J haplogroup at high frequencies, so-called "Caucasoid" mixture? So to you, what makes a 'Caucasoid'? Is it Genetically or skeletally?
R1 is present at frequencies of 20% in North Cameroon. So hmm, if 'Caucasoid' genes exist where are they in these populations, who have more admixture than East Africans?
Tutsis have ABSOLUTELY no west Asian admixture, yet exhibit "so called" Caucasoid features". Why?
You place far too much emphasis on single markers like Y-chromosomes and their frequencies. Geneticists don't agree with that approach:
"...the Y chromosome...is particularly influenced by drift. [...] Conclusions about populations on the basis of this single locus must therefore be made with caution."
" 'Genes on the mitochondrial genome or the Y chromosome don't unambiguously allow you to infer population history,' notes Andrew G. Clark, a biology professor at Pennsylvania State University. 'That's because there's a lot of stochasticity, a lot of chance, that goes on in sampling of those genomes from generation to generation...."
"Earlier we emphasized the importance of using a large number of loci in the study of human evolution. This is because...the evolution of a single gene (or mtDNA) is subject to large stochastic errors."
Using this vastly superior approach, they've found only negligible Sub-Saharan African influences in Europeans, but significant Western Eurasian influences in many East Africans.
Red = Sub-Saharan African Yellow = Western Eurasian Blue = Eastern Eurasian
Orange = Sub-Saharan African Blue = Western Eurasian Pink = Eastern Eurasian Green = Austro-Melanesian Purple = Native American
"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a 'Black' cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans."
A (blue) = Western Eurasian B (red) = Austro-Melanesian C (green) = Sub-Saharan African D (yellow) = Eastern EurasianPosts: 128 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
Could you tell me the names of these 2 studies? I've been trying to find them before. There was also one that showed African-Americans in a diagram like in the top pic. Do you know about that one?
Posts: 39 | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
First I am going to say welcome back from your Ban, Let me just say you seem to not understand that you have been refuted on everyone of your points. In another thread you refused to comment on what Rasol posted for you to read. Now you seem to me to be a person who ignores being defeated even though the evidence shown you is *Facts*, you mostly just ignore whats posted and post the same nonsense like you did when you were first posting here. It's time to be a man and admit where you are mistaken.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Above is mention made to the original Greeks and Anatolians. You’ve seen the genetic studies. Here are the images and artefacts these people left of themselves. They portray their kind as African: meaning with some combination of full facial features and often woolly hair (though I’m black and my mother and sister have straight hair as many black women do so straight hair alone in ancient images could well be African women if reinforced with other African morphologies)
quote:Originally posted by argiedude: Could you tell me the names of these 2 studies? I've been trying to find them before. There was also one that showed African-Americans in a diagram like in the top pic. Do you know about that one?
The first one is from Cavalli-Sforza et al's book The History and Geography of Human Genes.
I might have gotten a bit carried away with the LARGE pics, but I saw mention of East Africans as Whites, so I sought to have this clarified at once with pictures which actually show Somalies. When you tell Somalies they are considered whites, they repond with dismay at the wickedness of it all.
Some sites will reduce the pictures size to prevent to much scrolling.
Egmond Codfried
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
This whole thread is ridiculous. First of all, Clyde started out that Greeks were black Africans, specifically those from Classical times were black. Of course such was not the case but of course they do have black African ancestry. Such ancestry is dated to Neolithic times. Just because one has black ancestry from thousands of years ago does not mean one is necessarily, that is looks black today.
And then you have Debunked who tries to flip the script and deny that such lineages from the Neolithic such as E3b are not African.
Clyde and Debunked two sides of one dirty coin. LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This whole thread is ridiculous. First of all, Clyde started out that Greeks were black Africans, specifically those from Classical times were black. Of course such was not the case but of course they do have black African ancestry. Such ancestry is dated to Neolithic times. Just because one has black ancestry from thousands of years ago does not mean one is necessarily, that is looks black today.
And then you have Debunked who tries to flip the script and deny that such lineages from the Neolithic such as E3b are not African.
Clyde and Debunked two sides of one dirty coin. LOL
I never said the Classical Greeks were African. There were Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin, but most were probably killed off by the Dorians and Hellenes.
theez guyz old blax couldn't fite worth a **** huh
they alluz getting they azz kicked until they wiped out
total-ee x-terminated
whazzup wizzat
i thot they spozed 2 b mighty
but they mighty inferior
cawz savijez and barbers whackd them ded so e z
You are so right about the Blacks of Carthage defeating the Romans. Finally you said something intelligent. Hannibal and his soildiers did have an ez job of defeating the Romans by using superior intelligence. These blacks did indeed "wackd them ded ez" as you said.
Clyde's 'black Africans' - maine they b settin up shop
from Meso America 2 where Samurai swords clean clocks,
from down around Crete up 2 the North pole
wit Empires round the globe they were gettin so many .. dimes,
It's the adventures of Negro-willow-the-whisps everywhere but where they from,
Ask why others are there now - get how things come 2 a close,
and: "mann, a bunch of primative silly a** Barbarians easily made those knee grows N2 hoes."
lol
For real though Clyde, or anyone else, how do we know whether Hannibal was black or not? He was definitely an African and I bet of a darker hue than many of the North Africans today. But are there any accounts, descriptions, depictions or other evidence? (truly curious)
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
and I'd agree. Here is his post on the matter from African Classical History. From a real scholar.
From: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk [mailto:africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk] On Behalf Of Robin Walker Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 6:19 PM To: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk Subject: [africanclassicalhistory] On the Ethnicity of Hannibal of Carthage
Dear Group
Just as in America there is an attempt to rewrite the history of Tutankhamen to remove the Blacks from that history, a television documentary in Britain attempted to rewrite the history of Carthage to remove the Blacks from that history too.
First I present Channel Five's attempt to justify their dishonesty. Secondly, my answer is given below.
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding Hannibal Of The Alps: Revealed. Hannibal Barca was indeed born in Carthage but his appearance and ethnic background have been an endless source of speculation amongst academic s over the years. There is only one contemporary image of Hannibal. It appears on a coin which is in the possession of the British Museum. However, even that coin is not 100% positively attributed to the period. (A good photographic image of it is available at http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/hannibal-command-spain.htm). You will see from the coin that Hannibal has what appear to be Caucasian features. Similarly there is scant documentary reference to his appearance. The only ‘contemporary’ commentator wrote 100 years after Hannibal’s death and gave little regard to a physical description of the man other than his size and strength.
In the present day there is a huge ethnographic variation across the continent of Africa so to say Hannibal would have looked ‘African’ would we believe, have also been misleading. After all, Omar Sharif and Nelson Mandela are both ‘African’ but no-one would think of them as being ethnically related. From the information we have available it is possible that Hannibal’s mother may have been Spanish. This would lead us to believe that it is likely that Hannibal would have be en olive skinned. Hannibal’s army was also made up of a huge variety of races of men he picked up on his travels through Europe. All colours of skin would have been in his army.
Our overriding aim was to provide an accurate historical narrative which would relate the life of an extraordinary general. This we believe we achieved. At no time did we intend to mislead the viewers of this film into thinking Hannibal was anything other than Carthaginian. < /DIV> Thank you for your interest in Five.
I am wholly unimpressed with your treatment of the Hannibal issue.
On Hannibal’s Surus Sir Gavin De Beer, author of Hannibal: The Struggle for Power in the Mediterranean, wrote that:
Hannibal . . . rode the sole surviving elephant, an animal which may have found its way into history, for some years later Cato the Elder recorded that the elephant which fought most bravely in the Second Punic War was called Surus. This name means the Syrian, and Syria was where the Ptolemies had captured Indian elephants, some of which they must have given to Carthage. A bronze coin found in the valley of the Clanis (Chiana), on Hannibal’s route to Lake Trasimene, bears on the obverse a Negro’s head . . . and on the reverse an equally obvious Indian elephant. It is believed to have been minted at just about this time, 217 BC; and as Pyrrhus never came this way with his elephants, the coin probably bears a representation of Hannibal’s sole surviving elephant, the Indian Surus. (UK, Thames and Hudson, 1969, page 191)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Hannibal rode the sole surviving elephant • That elephant was of Indian origin • A coin exists with this Indian elephant depicted on it
On page 190 of this same book, Sir Gavin reproduces the coin.
(See Picture 1 below)
It was from the British Museum and the caption reads as follows:
Bronze coin from the Chiana valley, c.217 BC, showing (obverse) a Negro’s head, and (reverse) an Indian elephant, perhaps Hannibal’s Surus.
There are however three weaknesses in Sir Gavin De Beer’s account • He is remarkably reluctant to identify the Negro • He erroneously gave the impression that there is only one such coin • He did not comment on the Phoenician or Punic character under the elephant
Elsewhere in the same book (pages 104-105) Sir Gavin takes to task those “modern commentators who were ignorant of the differences between the bush and the forest varieties of African elephants.” He continues: < FONT face="Times New Roman"> Polybius’s account has been completely vindicated; the heights at the shoulder of the three elephants are approximately 7 feet 9 inches for the African forest elephant, 9 feet 6 inches for the Indian elephant, and 11 feet for the African bush elephant. The size of the Indian elephant made it possible to mount howdahs or ‘castles’ on its back, containing archers. The African forest elephant was too small . . . Indian and African elephants have been depicted on coins and mosaics, and the following differences between them are so clear-cut that they can easily be distinguished. The African forest elephant differs from the Indian in the following features: 1, the ear is enormous, whereas the Indian elephant’s ear is small; 2, the back has a concave dip between a high point over the shoulder and a nother high point over the hind quarters, whereas the back of the Indian elephant is an unbroken convex dome from front to rear; 3, the hind quarters are almost flat, whereas the Indian elephant’s hind quarters project backwards at a fairly sharp angle; 4, the head is carried high, while the Indian elephant carries its head low; 5, the forehead is flat, instead of showing the Indian elephant’s concave profile; 6, the trunk is marked by transverse ridges, instead of being smooth; 7, the tip of the trunk has two ‘fingers’ instead of only one as in the Indian elephant; 8, the upper part of the front edge of the hind leg is masked by a fold of skin forming a skirt, whereas the front edge of the hind leg of the Indian elephant is uncovered right up to the groin.
Keith Hart, a veterinarian, wrote a recent article for the journal Amphora: Volume II, entitled On Hannibal and Elephants. Part of the paper reads as follows:
Syria (now Iraq) once harbored the largest Asian subspecies (now extinct) hunted by the pharaohs 3,000 years ago. It is possible that the Ptolemies in Egypt were still able to obtain Syrian elephants in Hannibal’s time, and this may have been the original source of Hannibal’s one surviving animal. In any case, while the majority of Hannibal’s elephants were probably of North African origin, at least one may have been an Asian elephant. It is highly likely that the surviving elephant, emerging from the Apennines with the great Carthaginian on his back, was none other than Surus. Pliny the Elder tells us that he was not only the bravest of the elephants but that he also had one broken tusk. Scullard suggests that this eleph ant, which could have been a large, male, Asian elephant from Syria, was a gift from Ptolemy to his ally, the great Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barca (174). Hannibal was Hamilcar’s son and may have formed a relationship with Surus from childhood . . . I visualize Hannibal riding Surus into Etruria at the head of a bedraggled but victorious army. Scullard sheds one final light on the scene by turning our attention to Etrurian bronze coins issued around 217 B.C. when Hannibal passed through (176). The coin s clearly depict an Asian elephant. As Scullard points out, the coins could have nothing to do with Pyrrhus and his Asian elephants, who failed to reach as far north as Rome. The only other reasonable explanation is that the coins depict Surus, as he passes through Etruria and disappears into the mists of history. (US, American Philological Association, Volume 2, Issue 2, Fall 2003, page 6)
From this data, it is impossible to confuse an Indian with either variety of the African elephant.
Conclusion One: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal has the wrong type of elephant depicted on it. The caption associated with your coin reads:
Coin from Cartago Nova AR quarter shekel, (1.58g) c. 215 BC, Male head (of Hannibal?) left. / African elephant walking to right, dotted border
(See Pictures 2a and 2b below)
On the Carthaginian Origin of the Coins P. Raffaele Garrucci, author of Le Monete Dell’Italia Antica, reproduces 5 coins found in Italy. O n page 58, he wrote the following:
11-14. Museo Kircheriano. Testa di moro con anello all’orecchio volta a d. R. Elefante asiatico con la squilla al collo stante, volto a destra. I bronzi che portano questi tipi si distinguono fra loro per quattro diverse lettere alfabetiche . . . 15. Nella collezione Strozzi. Questa monetina ha i tipi predetti e per lettera distinctiva . . . (Rome, 1885)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Coins 11-14 are in the Museo Kircheriano • Coin 15 is in a private collection • The coins are distinguished by different Phoenician or Punic characters written on them (See Appendix) • The elephants are described as “asiatico” - meaning Indian in origin
On plate T. LXXV of the same book are reproductions of these coins.
(See Picture 3 below)
Conclusion Two: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal does not contain any Phoenician or Punic characters. There is thus nothing to connect your coin with Carthage other than conjecture.
On the Peopling of Carthage Stephane Gsell, author of the voluminous Histoire Ancienne de L’Afrique du Nord, wrote that:
Plusieurs crânes, recueillis dans les cimetières, offrent des caractères propres aux nègres. (Volume IV, Franc e, Librairie Hachette, 1920, pages 173-4)
In the same book we read that:
On ne paraît pas avoir recontré jusqu’à present à Carthage, non plus qu’à Sidon, le type dit sémitique, fréquent chez les Juifs at les Arabes; face longue, en ovale régulier, nez mince at aquiline, crâne allongé et très renflé au-dessus de la nuque. (page 177)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Craniometric remains typical of Negroes have been found in Carthaginian cemeteries • Craniometric remains typical of Semites have not been found in Carthaginian cemeteries Eugène Pittard, an anthropology professor, reported in his Race and History: An Ethnological Introduction to History, that:
Other skeletal remains found in Punic Carthage and deposited in the Lavigerie Museum are from specimens discovered in private tombs that very likely belonged to the Carthaginian elite. The skulls are nearly all dolichocephalic. (UK, Kegan Paul reprint edition, 2003, page 335)
As an example:
Those who have visited the Lavigerie Museum at Carthage . . . will remember the magnificent sarcop hagus of the priestess of Tanit discovered by Père Delattre. This sarcophagus, the most highly decorated and artistic of those found, and whose outer image probably represents the goddess herself, must have been the coffin of a very great ecclesiastical personage. And the woman it contained exhibited Negroid characters. She was an African by race! (page 334)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Craniometric remains typical of the Carthaginian elites were dolichocephalic. Dolichocephaly (i.e. having a long skull) is generally typical of tropically-adapted populations
Conclusion Three: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal contains a Caucasian face. This is not consistent with the known anthropological facts.
In Closing North Africa today cannot be used to discuss North Africa in ancient times. The Arabians who are there today conquered North Africa after 639 AD. The light-skinned Berbers are descended from the Vandal conquest of the fifth century AD and the Roman conquest of Carthage in 146 BC. As Carthage was founded in 814 BC it therefore contained no Arabians nor White Berbers.
In North Africa today Negro Berbers still exist such as the Harratin and the Chouchen. They are descended from the earliest inhabitants of North Africa. Their ancestors (called “Libyans”) were the numerically dominant population in Carthage from the elite down to the commoners.
The coin that you claim is Hannibal • Has a face that is inconsistent with the k nown anthropological and historical facts • Contains an elephant that is of the wrong type • Lacks Phoenician or Punic writing
On the other hand I have shown that there are six different coins associated with Hannibal and all of them show him to be a Negro.
How did you manage to make a historical documentary and be totally oblivious of the key evidence?
Robin Walker
Appendix 1 It is not at all obvious that the people of Spain two thousand years ago were uniformly olive skinned nor were they uniformly of Caucasian appearance. The Annals of Human Genetics (Volume 67: Issue 4, July 2003) carried an interesting article entitled Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean by S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J. Bertranpetit and D. Comas. In the article, they revealed the following data:
Out of 23 different L sequences in Iberia, two were also found in NW Africa (as well as in sub-Saharan Africa), and 7 others were found in sub-Saharan Africa (in a dataset comprising 1,158 individuals from 20 populations; Graven et al. 1995, Pinto et al. 1996; Watson et al. 1996; Mateu et al. 1997; Rando et al. 1998; Krings et al. 1999; Pereira et al. 2001; Brehm et al. 2002) but not in NW Africa. Treating the set of L sequences in Iberia as if it were a population reveals genetic distances from some W African populations, such as the Senegalese and Yoruba, that are slightly smaller than those between L sequences in Iberia and NW Africa. Thus, it may be the case that gene flow from NW Africa is not entirely responsible for the presence of L sequences in Iberia.
These authors are surprised by the presence of sub-Saharan genetic material in Iberia that they, of course, ca nnot comfortably explain. What this evidence implies, however, is that claiming Hannibal to have been Spanish of Half-Spanish is simply not a good enough get-out clause to remove his Negro ancestry.
Here's Robin's site. It's worth visiting if you haven't seen it:
posted
BTW. Anyone knows where Vin Diesel is at with Hannibal the movie? Seem there was a lot of static about why Vin was playing Hannibal since he was not black.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: BTW. Anyone knows where Vin Diesel is at with Hannibal the movie? Seem there was a lot of static about why Vin was playing Hannibal since he was not black.
Seems as if you're trying to start some "static" here on ES.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
Not you too!! Are you implying that I am NOT black.
This is so rediculous its not even funny. Hey Horus you fooled everyone. This is the first time in my life I am fighting to recognized as Black. Jeeeeeeze.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Ladies and Gentlemen, this character and the story that has unfolded over the past couple weeks is FIRST CLASS PROOF that being "Black", pseudo-scientific as it is does go beyond just skin colour. In fact, I am quite sure that my skin is Brown in colour.
xyyman is really yman.
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin, but most were probably killed off by the Dorians and Hellenes.
yup
u sed it
savijes and barbers ded dem niggas
so how mighty culd thay b
mighty inferior
according to you
thay culdnt fite 4 shi it
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Ima Trollman: heh heh
winter washington and dat ouger man
theez guyz old blax couldn't fite worth a **** huh
they alluz getting they azz kicked until they wiped out
total-ee x-terminated
whazzup wizzat
i thot they spozed 2 b mighty
but they mighty inferior
cawz savijez and barbers whackd them ded so e z
You are so right about the Blacks of Carthage defeating the Romans. Finally you said something intelligent. Hannibal and his soildiers did have an ez job of defeating the Romans by using superior intelligence. These blacks did indeed "wackd them ded ez" as you said.
.
Posts: 9 | From: Under the Bridge | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
and I'd agree. Here is his post on the matter from African Classical History. From a real scholar.
From: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk [mailto:africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk] On Behalf Of Robin Walker Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 6:19 PM To: africanclassicalhistory@yahoogroups.co.uk Subject: [africanclassicalhistory] On the Ethnicity of Hannibal of Carthage
Dear Group
Just as in America there is an attempt to rewrite the history of Tutankhamen to remove the Blacks from that history, a television documentary in Britain attempted to rewrite the history of Carthage to remove the Blacks from that history too.
First I present Channel Five's attempt to justify their dishonesty. Secondly, my answer is given below.
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding Hannibal Of The Alps: Revealed. Hannibal Barca was indeed born in Carthage but his appearance and ethnic background have been an endless source of speculation amongst academic s over the years. There is only one contemporary image of Hannibal. It appears on a coin which is in the possession of the British Museum. However, even that coin is not 100% positively attributed to the period. (A good photographic image of it is available at http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/hannibal-command-spain.htm). You will see from the coin that Hannibal has what appear to be Caucasian features. Similarly there is scant documentary reference to his appearance. The only ‘contemporary’ commentator wrote 100 years after Hannibal’s death and gave little regard to a physical description of the man other than his size and strength.
In the present day there is a huge ethnographic variation across the continent of Africa so to say Hannibal would have looked ‘African’ would we believe, have also been misleading. After all, Omar Sharif and Nelson Mandela are both ‘African’ but no-one would think of them as being ethnically related. From the information we have available it is possible that Hannibal’s mother may have been Spanish. This would lead us to believe that it is likely that Hannibal would have be en olive skinned. Hannibal’s army was also made up of a huge variety of races of men he picked up on his travels through Europe. All colours of skin would have been in his army.
Our overriding aim was to provide an accurate historical narrative which would relate the life of an extraordinary general. This we believe we achieved. At no time did we intend to mislead the viewers of this film into thinking Hannibal was anything other than Carthaginian. < /DIV> Thank you for your interest in Five.
I am wholly unimpressed with your treatment of the Hannibal issue.
On Hannibal’s Surus Sir Gavin De Beer, author of Hannibal: The Struggle for Power in the Mediterranean, wrote that:
Hannibal . . . rode the sole surviving elephant, an animal which may have found its way into history, for some years later Cato the Elder recorded that the elephant which fought most bravely in the Second Punic War was called Surus. This name means the Syrian, and Syria was where the Ptolemies had captured Indian elephants, some of which they must have given to Carthage. A bronze coin found in the valley of the Clanis (Chiana), on Hannibal’s route to Lake Trasimene, bears on the obverse a Negro’s head . . . and on the reverse an equally obvious Indian elephant. It is believed to have been minted at just about this time, 217 BC; and as Pyrrhus never came this way with his elephants, the coin probably bears a representation of Hannibal’s sole surviving elephant, the Indian Surus. (UK, Thames and Hudson, 1969, page 191)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Hannibal rode the sole surviving elephant • That elephant was of Indian origin • A coin exists with this Indian elephant depicted on it
On page 190 of this same book, Sir Gavin reproduces the coin.
(See Picture 1 below)
It was from the British Museum and the caption reads as follows:
Bronze coin from the Chiana valley, c.217 BC, showing (obverse) a Negro’s head, and (reverse) an Indian elephant, perhaps Hannibal’s Surus.
There are however three weaknesses in Sir Gavin De Beer’s account • He is remarkably reluctant to identify the Negro • He erroneously gave the impression that there is only one such coin • He did not comment on the Phoenician or Punic character under the elephant
Elsewhere in the same book (pages 104-105) Sir Gavin takes to task those “modern commentators who were ignorant of the differences between the bush and the forest varieties of African elephants.” He continues: < FONT face="Times New Roman"> Polybius’s account has been completely vindicated; the heights at the shoulder of the three elephants are approximately 7 feet 9 inches for the African forest elephant, 9 feet 6 inches for the Indian elephant, and 11 feet for the African bush elephant. The size of the Indian elephant made it possible to mount howdahs or ‘castles’ on its back, containing archers. The African forest elephant was too small . . . Indian and African elephants have been depicted on coins and mosaics, and the following differences between them are so clear-cut that they can easily be distinguished. The African forest elephant differs from the Indian in the following features: 1, the ear is enormous, whereas the Indian elephant’s ear is small; 2, the back has a concave dip between a high point over the shoulder and a nother high point over the hind quarters, whereas the back of the Indian elephant is an unbroken convex dome from front to rear; 3, the hind quarters are almost flat, whereas the Indian elephant’s hind quarters project backwards at a fairly sharp angle; 4, the head is carried high, while the Indian elephant carries its head low; 5, the forehead is flat, instead of showing the Indian elephant’s concave profile; 6, the trunk is marked by transverse ridges, instead of being smooth; 7, the tip of the trunk has two ‘fingers’ instead of only one as in the Indian elephant; 8, the upper part of the front edge of the hind leg is masked by a fold of skin forming a skirt, whereas the front edge of the hind leg of the Indian elephant is uncovered right up to the groin.
Keith Hart, a veterinarian, wrote a recent article for the journal Amphora: Volume II, entitled On Hannibal and Elephants. Part of the paper reads as follows:
Syria (now Iraq) once harbored the largest Asian subspecies (now extinct) hunted by the pharaohs 3,000 years ago. It is possible that the Ptolemies in Egypt were still able to obtain Syrian elephants in Hannibal’s time, and this may have been the original source of Hannibal’s one surviving animal. In any case, while the majority of Hannibal’s elephants were probably of North African origin, at least one may have been an Asian elephant. It is highly likely that the surviving elephant, emerging from the Apennines with the great Carthaginian on his back, was none other than Surus. Pliny the Elder tells us that he was not only the bravest of the elephants but that he also had one broken tusk. Scullard suggests that this eleph ant, which could have been a large, male, Asian elephant from Syria, was a gift from Ptolemy to his ally, the great Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barca (174). Hannibal was Hamilcar’s son and may have formed a relationship with Surus from childhood . . . I visualize Hannibal riding Surus into Etruria at the head of a bedraggled but victorious army. Scullard sheds one final light on the scene by turning our attention to Etrurian bronze coins issued around 217 B.C. when Hannibal passed through (176). The coin s clearly depict an Asian elephant. As Scullard points out, the coins could have nothing to do with Pyrrhus and his Asian elephants, who failed to reach as far north as Rome. The only other reasonable explanation is that the coins depict Surus, as he passes through Etruria and disappears into the mists of history. (US, American Philological Association, Volume 2, Issue 2, Fall 2003, page 6)
From this data, it is impossible to confuse an Indian with either variety of the African elephant.
Conclusion One: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal has the wrong type of elephant depicted on it. The caption associated with your coin reads:
Coin from Cartago Nova AR quarter shekel, (1.58g) c. 215 BC, Male head (of Hannibal?) left. / African elephant walking to right, dotted border
(See Pictures 2a and 2b below)
On the Carthaginian Origin of the Coins P. Raffaele Garrucci, author of Le Monete Dell’Italia Antica, reproduces 5 coins found in Italy. O n page 58, he wrote the following:
11-14. Museo Kircheriano. Testa di moro con anello all’orecchio volta a d. R. Elefante asiatico con la squilla al collo stante, volto a destra. I bronzi che portano questi tipi si distinguono fra loro per quattro diverse lettere alfabetiche . . . 15. Nella collezione Strozzi. Questa monetina ha i tipi predetti e per lettera distinctiva . . . (Rome, 1885)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Coins 11-14 are in the Museo Kircheriano • Coin 15 is in a private collection • The coins are distinguished by different Phoenician or Punic characters written on them (See Appendix) • The elephants are described as “asiatico” - meaning Indian in origin
On plate T. LXXV of the same book are reproductions of these coins.
(See Picture 3 below)
Conclusion Two: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal does not contain any Phoenician or Punic characters. There is thus nothing to connect your coin with Carthage other than conjecture.
On the Peopling of Carthage Stephane Gsell, author of the voluminous Histoire Ancienne de L’Afrique du Nord, wrote that:
Plusieurs crânes, recueillis dans les cimetières, offrent des caractères propres aux nègres. (Volume IV, Franc e, Librairie Hachette, 1920, pages 173-4)
In the same book we read that:
On ne paraît pas avoir recontré jusqu’à present à Carthage, non plus qu’à Sidon, le type dit sémitique, fréquent chez les Juifs at les Arabes; face longue, en ovale régulier, nez mince at aquiline, crâne allongé et très renflé au-dessus de la nuque. (page 177)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Craniometric remains typical of Negroes have been found in Carthaginian cemeteries • Craniometric remains typical of Semites have not been found in Carthaginian cemeteries Eugène Pittard, an anthropology professor, reported in his Race and History: An Ethnological Introduction to History, that:
Other skeletal remains found in Punic Carthage and deposited in the Lavigerie Museum are from specimens discovered in private tombs that very likely belonged to the Carthaginian elite. The skulls are nearly all dolichocephalic. (UK, Kegan Paul reprint edition, 2003, page 335)
As an example:
Those who have visited the Lavigerie Museum at Carthage . . . will remember the magnificent sarcop hagus of the priestess of Tanit discovered by Père Delattre. This sarcophagus, the most highly decorated and artistic of those found, and whose outer image probably represents the goddess herself, must have been the coffin of a very great ecclesiastical personage. And the woman it contained exhibited Negroid characters. She was an African by race! (page 334)
From this data, we are specifically told that: • Craniometric remains typical of the Carthaginian elites were dolichocephalic. Dolichocephaly (i.e. having a long skull) is generally typical of tropically-adapted populations
Conclusion Three: The coin that you claim is of Hannibal contains a Caucasian face. This is not consistent with the known anthropological facts.
In Closing North Africa today cannot be used to discuss North Africa in ancient times. The Arabians who are there today conquered North Africa after 639 AD. The light-skinned Berbers are descended from the Vandal conquest of the fifth century AD and the Roman conquest of Carthage in 146 BC. As Carthage was founded in 814 BC it therefore contained no Arabians nor White Berbers.
In North Africa today Negro Berbers still exist such as the Harratin and the Chouchen. They are descended from the earliest inhabitants of North Africa. Their ancestors (called “Libyans”) were the numerically dominant population in Carthage from the elite down to the commoners.
The coin that you claim is Hannibal • Has a face that is inconsistent with the k nown anthropological and historical facts • Contains an elephant that is of the wrong type • Lacks Phoenician or Punic writing
On the other hand I have shown that there are six different coins associated with Hannibal and all of them show him to be a Negro.
How did you manage to make a historical documentary and be totally oblivious of the key evidence?
Robin Walker
Appendix 1 It is not at all obvious that the people of Spain two thousand years ago were uniformly olive skinned nor were they uniformly of Caucasian appearance. The Annals of Human Genetics (Volume 67: Issue 4, July 2003) carried an interesting article entitled Joining the Pillars of Hercules: mtDNA Sequences Show Multidirectional Gene Flow in the Western Mediterranean by S. Plaza, F. Calafell, A. Helal, N. Bouzerna, G. Lefranc, J. Bertranpetit and D. Comas. In the article, they revealed the following data:
Out of 23 different L sequences in Iberia, two were also found in NW Africa (as well as in sub-Saharan Africa), and 7 others were found in sub-Saharan Africa (in a dataset comprising 1,158 individuals from 20 populations; Graven et al. 1995, Pinto et al. 1996; Watson et al. 1996; Mateu et al. 1997; Rando et al. 1998; Krings et al. 1999; Pereira et al. 2001; Brehm et al. 2002) but not in NW Africa. Treating the set of L sequences in Iberia as if it were a population reveals genetic distances from some W African populations, such as the Senegalese and Yoruba, that are slightly smaller than those between L sequences in Iberia and NW Africa. Thus, it may be the case that gene flow from NW Africa is not entirely responsible for the presence of L sequences in Iberia.
These authors are surprised by the presence of sub-Saharan genetic material in Iberia that they, of course, ca nnot comfortably explain. What this evidence implies, however, is that claiming Hannibal to have been Spanish of Half-Spanish is simply not a good enough get-out clause to remove his Negro ancestry.
Here's Robin's site. It's worth visiting if you haven't seen it:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This whole thread is ridiculous. First of all, Clyde started out that Greeks were black Africans, specifically those from Classical times were black. LOL
I never said the Classical Greeks were African. There were Blacks in Greece during the Classical Period of Pelasgian origin,
Mary does this to everybody it seems.... Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Greek Art {img]http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/art/greek/10_97_5_67.jpg[/img] Modern Greeks
The claim that the Greeks are not white and or "Black" or East African in origin is absurd to the point its sad that so called "Scholars" make the claim. The above is Greek Sculpture from the classical era to the Hellenic era...and lets not even POST THEIR VASE ART...because its FAR FAR worse in showing the Greeks as lily White.
The Greeks both Modern and Ancient are whites, their literatures, customers and culture was centered around customs many of you would consider Eurocentric. Just as in the case of the Ancient Egyptians the Greeks left in their Art and writing who they were.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
Why do you say this genetic studies indicate that the Greeks are closely related to Africans. This results from the fact that the Pelasgians were Black/Africans.
Genetics prove you wrong: Arnaiz-Villena A, et al. Tissue Antigens. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.2001 Feb;57(2):118-27
Arnaiz-Villena A, et al.The correlation between languages and genes: the Usko-Mediterranean peoples. Hum Immunol. 2001 Sep;62(9):1051-61
Arnaiz-Villena A, et al.Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective. Tissue Antigens.2002 Aug;60(2):111-21
posted
The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment,and Apollonius Rhodius, says the Garamantes from Africa colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were from diverse Black tribes the: Achaeans,Kadmeans, and Leleges.Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius said the Danaans were Africans.
Are you saying that your ancestors are lying about the African roots of Greece. Please present evidence that Apollonius, Homer, Hyainus, Plutarch, Ovid,and Herodutus are lying about the African origin of Greecian civilization?
Cite evidence these Classical writers were wrong.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment,and Apollonius Rhodius, says the Garamantes from Africa colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were from diverse Black tribes the: Achaeans,Kadmeans, and Leleges.Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius said the Danaans were Africans.
Are you saying that your ancestors are lying about the African roots of Greece. Please present evidence that Apollonius, Homer, Hyainus, Plutarch, Ovid,and Herodutus are lying about the African origin of Greecian civilization?
Cite evidence these Classical writers were wrong.
This is roughly the same view Martin Bernal has. Is that the source you're using? Have you bought his linguistic book yet?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Mycenaeans were not white. Homer claimed that Mycenae was ruled by Agamemnon. In the Iliad Agamemnon is decribed as xanthos, which means brown in Greek, not white.Agamemnon is in direct descent from Epaphos, the Black ancestor of the Pelasgic house. Aeschylus in Prometheus Bound, describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" and that he originally lived in Africa. The Pelasgians were the first settlers of Greecian region.
The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment,and Apollonius Rhodius, says the Garamantes from Africa colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were from diverse Black tribes the: Achaeans,Kadmeans, and Leleges.Hyainus in Fabula, and Apollonius Rhodius said the Danaans were Africans.
Are you saying that your ancestors are lying about the African roots of Greece. Please present evidence that Apollonius, Homer, Hyainus, Plutarch, Ovid,and Herodutus are lying about the African origin of Greecian civilization?
Cite evidence these Classical writers were wrong.
This is roughly the same view Martin Bernal has. Is that the source you're using? Have you bought his linguistic book yet?
This is not the same view as Bernal He believes these people were Jews.
I have not read the linguistics book--I may buy it when it cost less. Interestingly, I have not seen any reviews of the book have you?
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
'Caucasoid' as in 'mixed' like other populations of European extraction? Or would that be moreso?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic