quote:Originally posted by ausar: Does anybody get the impression that Fawal might be a regular contributor to a racialist website. For a Tunisian he seems well versed in racial politics of America. It almost seems like he is superimposting a Tunisian identity upon himself to validate his views and fit into Egyptsearch. Either way, he should be able to support his views without deception and simply stand upon his own views.
He seems to me like he could be a Tunisian immigrant in America.
Ausar, is it common for lighter-skinned Maghrebians to feel superior to blacks the way Fawal evidently does? It certainly seems to me that a lot of people in the Mediterranean basin region have issues with black people and having black ancestry.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote: Flynn's work is sound. He has shown CLEARLY that IQ is not genetic. He has shown that the IQ of blacks, over the past 30 years has risen as economic conditions improved and they gain a full 5 points relative to whites, hence it is not 85 which is an outdated number and it's above 90.
James Flynn comes very close to being disingenuous in his conclusions.
Here is an extract from Reason Magazine concerning his debate with Charles Murray:
quote: Nevertheless, Flynn noted, in the US the tendency is for the black/white IQ score gap to widen with age. According to Flynn, the average IQ for black four-year olds is 95.4, which drops to 89.4 at age 14 and widens further to 83.4 by age 24.
...why don’t [psychometricians] agree on whether the gap is closing or not? The difference turns on how they slice the data. Murray prefers to look at test scores by birth cohorts, e.g., how the scores of white and black 18-year olds stack up to one another. Those data show no closing of the gap on tests administered since the late 1970s. It remains at about 15 IQ points. Flynn looks at test scores in the year they are administered without taking account of differences in age, e.g., how blacks and whites of every age who took in the test in 1985 compare. Flynn found that the black/white IQ score gap narrowed by 5.67 points between 1972 and 2002. Thus the IQ gap has fallen from 15 points to about 10 ten points.
In fact, what Flynn did to claim a closing of the IQ gap was to choose a lower starting score for negroes than is actually accepted in the science or supported in the recorded data. He asserts the average IQ for negroes in 1970 was 80 or a bit less. He can do this and get away with it by the means cited above, but it is marginally unethical. All the data from all reputable sources tells us the average then, thirty or forty years ago, was the same as it is now, and the same as Flynn reports in that same study by the age of 24: an average IQ of 85 or a bit less, as he concedes above as quoted in Reason.
There has been no closing of the IQ gap. That is impossible because intelligence is heritable. Whites who are born with low IQs inherited their low IQs and there is nothing they can do about it; negroes born with high IQs inherited their high IQs and they cannot unlearn it. On average though, Whites are born with higher IQs than negroes.
Posts: 131 | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by mr Identity aka the Stalking Mangina: ^ you really need to get over your silly paranoia
^folks, the irony.
Let go like you and Jews?
quote:just debate him with facts and sound argument. Why does it matter if he is Arab or white? He could be Jewish [your favorite white group ] as alot of Jews argue this way too.
That's an interesting question: my favorite white group ... but then upon thought and recollection i surmise i don't have a favorite white group -- i'm just cool with *cool* white people.
And why - you ask - does it matter what identity this poster is to me?
Well really, o Stalking one, ausar's questions shouldn't matter because if it didn't matter it shouldn't matter what ethnicity you claim to be. But i only afford respect to those who show the same respect to me -- dude did attack what he thinks we all are with the "afrocentrist" red herring.
I just stated that in my experience people from the West LOVE to pose as some other ethnicity to mess with people: mostly they like to mess with blacks the whole idea of race controversy while posing as ebonics speaking black people or poor english speaking people from somewhere, notably around Africa or India/East Asia.
Untill they get caught in the act.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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If you feel "stalked" why do you keep replying? Admit it Jeeves, you get off thinking you are being stalked by men. LOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Ausar, is it common for lighter-skinned Maghrebians to feel superior to blacks the way Fawal evidently does? It certainly seems to me that a lot of people in the Mediterranean basin region have issues with black people and having black ancestry.
I have a theory that this racism developed in the 20th century somehow because of white supremacist imperialism.
quote:Sultan Abul-Hasan was well known for his ostentatious ways and his presumption to vie with the mightiest monarchs and adopt their customs in exchanging gifts with their peers and counterparts and dispatching emissaries to distant kings and far frontiers. In his time the king of Mali was the greatest of the kings of the Sudan and the nearest to his kingdom in the Maghrib. Mali was 100 stages distant from the southern frontiers of his realms
quote:It would be more accurate to say the Nordic race. Other white races have not uniformly shown this discrimination. The Mediterranean race in particular has never manifested the same amount of race feeling. The Arabs have tended to receive the Negro almost on terms of equality, partly on religious grounds; it seems probable that the decadence of the Arabs is largely due to their miscegenation.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Ausar, is it common for lighter-skinned Maghrebians to feel superior to blacks the way Fawal evidently does? It certainly seems to me that a lot of people in the Mediterranean basin region have issues with black people and having black ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I have a theory that this racism developed in the 20th century somehow because of white supremacist imperialism.
I've had a similar feeling of truth (i get 'feelings' that i now know always turn out to be truths) for a while now.
In part i just think that it was simple rationalizing of a 'bad act' on simple minded people.
To many less conscious folk in the past sacrifice of *other people* was almost nothing:
Timbuktu's new ruler on page 107 of Timbuktu: the Sahara's Fabled City of Gold by Mark De Villiers & Sheila Hirtle, Sonni Ali from the city of Gao, was said to have put to death thirty virgins like that <<spaps fingers>> because in leaving their homes for the first time they didn't make the 9 kilometer trek to his base.
Back to racism: i everyone needs to be aware of the illogical nature of anachronisms. There are no absolutes. Some things stay the same and some things change.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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There has been no closing of the IQ gap. That is impossible because intelligence is heritable. Whites who are born with low IQs inherited their low IQs and there is nothing they can do about it; negroes born with high IQs inherited their high IQs and they cannot unlearn it. On average though, Whites are born with higher IQs than negroes.
1)If so, then explain why the average twin differential for Jensen's(1974) monozygotic twin study was 6.0 points. The cultures/environments in which the twins grew up were uniform Euro cultures.
2) In fact, approximately 12% of the Jensen twin subjects registered differentials of more than 14 points--with some as high as 20 points.
3)Sure, cognitive abilities are heritable but not necessarily directly from immediate parents. The parents of Einstein were just individuals of ordinary intelligence and his children all turned ot be just average types.
4)Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation". Examples are India(81), Iran(Persia)[83], Mexico[Incas and Mayas][83], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia)[83], Greece(the source of Western civilisation)94. Guatemala(78), Honduras(83).
5)In Europe--Lynn(1974) pointed out that Italian and Portugese migrants to the U.S. some 50+ years ago averaged 83 points on IQ tests. Scandinavians scored at the U.S average.
6) The point is that while cognitive abilities(g factor) are heritable, the cultural/learning environment plays a decisive role-- which explains why white middle class people are fanatical about getting their children into the "right" schools.
7) If "intelligence" was purely heritable, explain IQ test results are regularly normed--and this applies to Europe where testing is done only on Europeans.
8)Here are some other scores: Israel(94), Brazil(85), Ireland(95), Cambodia(87), and Pakistan(81).
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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4)Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation". Examples are India(81), Iran(Persia)[83], Mexico[Incas and Mayas][83], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia)[83], Greece(the source of Western civilisation)94. Guatemala(78), Honduras(83).
lamin - Are you really that simple? Of the examples that you gave; in which country does the original people still survive as a unique people?
Simple_2 - What does all of the best performing countries have in common, and what does all of the poor performing countries have in common.
Hint; Wealth/Poor - ya I know that Mexico is actually a wealthy country, but average Mexicans never see that money.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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JARED (white nationalists) : Well I think in some cases you have outright discrimination that prevents them from getting ahead. My only point is that if you're talking about Asians as a groupãif society, if environment, if that's the thing, or the key element, or whether or not they were working on a degree when they came to the United States, you would not find aggregate differences in IQ of Japanese in Japan as opposed to whites in the United States. And in fact you find the same IQ differences if you're talking about the Japanese in the United States as opposed to Japanese in Japan. You have an average IQ of 103, 104, as opposed to the average white that's 100. You see these differences reflected in the different fields in which they choose to be occupied.
TIM(Anti Racists): Except that a three to four point IQ difference is considered statistically insignificant by those who do IQ testing. I'd also point out that if we're going to talk about IQ, because it seems to me the main argument that's made by white nationalists regarding IQ is that not the difference between Asians and whites, which they will usually argue are there but are quite small, the difference between whites and blacks. Yet what's fascinating is that a few years ago after "The Bell Curve" came out, which was this very mainstream, bestselling book, supposedly mainstream, it certainly did well, which argued the same point, that there was, that IQ was very substantial in terms of likely economic livelihood and success and education and jobs and income and everything and argued that IQ was very much related to biology and race in particular. What's fascinating is that two years after, three years after the book came out, researchers at Washington University in St. Louis, using the very same longitudinal database that Murray and Herrnstein used for their research, which had demonstrated this persistent IQ gap between whites and blacks, looked at the same data and were able to take what Murray and Herrnstein didn't mention in their book from the data, which was that when African Americans in the US go to college, they raise their IQ four times faster than whites who go to college and in the process close the average IQ gap between whites and blacks in half in just four years. That would not be possible if IQ was fundamentally related to biology and yet it is exactly what the very database that Murray and Herrnstein used, actually demonstrated the average gap, which used to be back in the old studies, fifteen points between whites and blacks. Some evidence now suggests the average prior to college is only ten points. The college experience in four years cuts it down to half, or about five points, which, again, is statistically insignificant and which demonstrates the importance of access, opportunity, and environment on IQ scores. That could not happen, and it did, that could not happen, if IQ was fundamentally a biological concept.
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lamin - Are you really that simple? Of the examples that you gave; in which country does the original people still survive as a unique people?
Since I assume that peoples from all geographical regions are cognitively on par absent environmental influences, I don't see the relevance of your question.
So let's hear what you actually assume/believe.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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^ You prefaced your statement with: Quote - Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation"
Obviously, areas didn't produce civilization; people did. And those people are long gone.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Obviously, areas didn't produce civilization; people did. And those people are long gone.
.
Come on Mike, let's be serious now. The word "areas" is used metaphorically here. Get it? It's like saying: "Kenya produces many outstanding distance runners". Get it?
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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lamin - You asked the question: I was merely pointing out; that your question could not yield a sensible answer, because your question itself was based on a nonsensical premise.
That is: all of the areas that you used as examples i.e. India, Iran(Persia), Mexico[Incas and Mayas], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia), Greece (the source of Western civilisation). Guatemala, Honduras.
All have totally new; Caucasian or Caucasian-mix populations. So how is a parallel to be drawn, between what the original populations achieved, and what the new (Caucasian or Caucasian-mix) populations achieved, when the only similarity is in location?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mike, the point is that if you assume that all human groups--on average-- have equal cognitive capacities then any group that lived in Persia, India, Mesopotamia, Mexico, etc. at the time that those areas witnessed technologically advanced(relatively) civilisations--then the results would have been the same.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Variance in behavior among humans has only been demonstrated to be cultural.
This is a complete fallacy and ties in with the philosophy of tabula rasa, or the idea that the human mind is a completely blank slate from birth, and must be shaped from socialization...........
Talk about a long-winded and overly redundant post.
The problem here is that your own source contradicts you and doesn't associate intelligence with any particular "behavioral trait".
"In reality, there is no universal agreement on the definition of intelligence, even among those who study it for a living."
and:
Are behaviors inbred, written indelibly in our genes as immutable biological imperatives, or is the environment more important in shaping our thoughts and actions? Such questions cycle through society repeatedly, forming the public nexus of the "nature vs. nurture controversy," a strange locution to biologists, who recognize that behaviors exist only in the context of environmental influence. Nonetheless, the debate flares anew every few years, reigniting in response to genetic analyses of traits such as intelligence, criminality, or homosexuality, characteristics freighted with social, political, and legal meaning.
They go on to mention the influence of genes, but not across group or "racial" lines. You misinterpret your sources as they do not support you.
You asked:
quote:Originally posted by Fawal: If "races" (i.e. groups of people genetically isolated over time, and therefore subject to the effects of mutations and adaptations to better acclimate themselves to their environment) do not exist and we are all 100% genetically identical, then why is it that sickle-cell anemia is found mostly among people of recent Sub-Saharan ancestry, while cystic fibrosis is found predominantly amongst Europeans?
1) That is not the definition of race and 2), this is a naive question as it relies on one variable to define race. If we go by this one variable (sickle-cell anemia) then certainly many Greeks and other SE Europeans would cluster with Africans rather than with Europeans.
Also, suggesting that micro-evolution continues to occur everywhere else besides Africa is begging the question. Ironically, Sforza cites that Europeans can not be described as or fit into any "racial blocs" of humanity given the shortness of their branch in his diagram/population tree, claiming that this is either due to hybridization or a slower rate of evolution.
Also see Keita and Kittles (1997)...
These assumptions (that the European ecosystem somehow begets higher intellect), as noted by Brace about Rushton is based on nothing more than anthropological naivete. Again, primates inhabited Africa AND Eurasia yet Africa is the place that produced innate human intelligence (hence, "African invention").
quote:In what way exactly did I not respond adequately? For starters, I didn't even respond to that assertion myself, I simply relayed the explanation given by the evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker in his latest book. If you have an issue with this explanation, I recommend you take it up with him
The geneticists already have:
"Without a doubt, evolutionary psychology remains handicapped by the current primitive state of behavioral genetics and by our extremely inadequate understanding of gene-environment and gene-gene interactions. It is still a subfield that is inordinately dependent upon conjecture and extrapolation. Even in this exercise, it is hindered by an inability to understand cross-culturally most of the complex behavioral phenotypes it seeks to quantify."---Jackson; Lieberman (2001)
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:That sounds like your opinion. By chance did you even read the rebuttals offered by Linda Gottfredson? Just so you know she actually had a debate with James Flynn moderated by the Cato Institute, and let me just say that at the end of it all it was really quite clear who the winner was, and it most certainly wasn't Flynn.
The above also sounds like an "opinion"..
About Nisbett:
quote:I would love to see a source for this please
quote:And furthermore I am going to ask you the exact same question that I posed to "Whatbox" : If this is all true, why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%. Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT? At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this? In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
They proved a long time ago that tests like SAT were biased with such experiments as the the urban SAT and PBS' secrets of the SAT. This is only reinforced by Flynn's latest work showing a closing of the gap as he used standardized test scores, including AFQT.
On crania and neurons:
quote:I never said anything about head size, and 200,000 more neurons is supposed to prove what exactly? Based on years of psychometric research it most certainly doesn't correlate to increased intelligence as measured through standardized testing
I mispoke actually as it's 200 million excess neurons and neurons are attributed to information processing. Intelligence actually is attributed more so now to densely packed neurons than brain size yet I had to cover you on both fronts, again showing the opposite advantage when data is leveled out in context.
quote:Sunjata as an African myself, let me just inform you that the Africans who can actually afford to migrate to The West in the first place, are those who generally come from well to do families in the first place. Case in point the Zambian born economist Dambisa Moyo. If you watch this interview with her here on the National Review; you will see that she actually comes from a family of intellectuals. Kofi Annan's family was actually part of Ghana's elite class, with both his grandfathers and uncles being tribal chiefs. Kwame Anthony Appiah's father was an affluent Ghanian politician and attorney. These people all represent an "elite" class, and most of them would be among those you find in the upper quartile of the bell curve. The upper quartile is completely irrelevant; what is of concern is the middle 50% of the bell curve form which you would derive the absolute average of the entire population. The claim that black african immigrants outperform native born whites in the west is really quite disingenuous, as it compares this small elite class against the much larger white population(composed of people from all ranks along the bell curve). A more objective assessment would be to compare the black african upper quartile with the native born white upper quartile. Also there are a little over 1 million African Immigrants (including North Africans) residing in the US, as opposed to 800 million living in Sub-Saharan Africa. The idea of taking this small population, which really only accounts for a drop in the bucket, and trying to extrapolate this as representative of the entire population is really quite nonsensical.
Your logic is flawed. Black immigrants in no way represent an elite class anymore than any other immigrant population and many of these people easily outperform immigrant Europeans. The variables are the same, unlike your selected natural-born elite class Americans. Whenever the playing field is level there always seems to be a slight advantage for Blacks and this kind of spin can't mitigate this fact since the data is clear.
On Blacks being more efficient in weeding out bad mutations:
quote: I would to see a peer reviewed source that substantiates the claim that blacks" are genetically more efficient in weeding out bad mutations given this variability."
posted
My apologies for the late response. But as I pointed out in an earlier post, I have a very busy schedule; And unlike many of the regular posters on this forum, I actually have a life. So thus my hands were tied.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:I don't, because they were answered in the links to anyone with a willing and functional mind.
I did browse through those links that you provided me, none of them answered any of the questions that I posed to you: I read arguments ranging from the excuse that "asians cheat more," to one study that claimed that IQ measures how modern an individual is (to which I then asked you: In what ways exactly are black americans less modern than white and asian americans? - and to which I am still awaiting a response), to the article pertaining to black african immigrants and educational attainment. So I will ask you just one final time, and this time I would like to get a direct answer instead of simply being directed to some obscure thread:
1)In what ways exactly are African Americans less modern than White and Asian Americans?
2)Why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%?
3)Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT?
4)At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this?
5)In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
quote:Answer: it all has to do with perception.
When basic survival is front and center, that is what people get primarily concerned with. They have a lot of kids and easily get over weight if possible. (Don't blame me, blame Darwin).
Same thing goes for strength. When that is front and center and people feel weak they flock to things they feel represent strength: they build muscle, buy or make weapons, are emotional and negative, flock to gangs or to guys in gangs, etc -- they don't read books, lol, that's an evolutionary step further. First thing's are first.
Some stress maybe good for tests, but ability to focus and concentrate is better for learning or getting smarter.
I'm guessing that this vauge, and highly convoluted explanation is somehow meant to answer the questions that I posed to you above. What then is it that accounts for the differences in terms of life outcomes between Jewish Americans and African Americans given that anti-semetism is almost just as bad as anti-black racism?Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:"Compared mean IQ test performance and response styles to cognitive demands of the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) among 23 Black children (aged 7-10 yrs) who had been adopted by middle-class White families (i.e., transracially adopted) and 23 age-matched Black children who had been adopted by middle-class Black families (i.e., traditionally adopted). Findings indicate that while the traditionally adopted Ss received normal IQ scores, transracially adopted Ss showed nearly 1 standard deviation Full-Scale Scoring advantage over them. A multiple analysis of variance (MANOVA) indicated significant differences in the styles of responding to test demands demonstrated by the 2 groups of Ss, which were conceptualized as contributors to the difference in average test score observed between them. Multivariate analysis of the helping behaviors adopted mothers exhibited when helping their children solve a difficult cognitive task revealed significant differences between Black and White mothers, which were conceptualized as culturally determined. White adopted mothers tended to release tension by joking, grinning, and laughing, while Black adoptive mothers more often released tension in less positive ways such as scowling, coughing, and frowning. White adoptive mothers were more likely than Black adoptive mothers to provide positive evaluations of their children's problem solving efforts. It is concluded that the ethnicity of the rearing environment exerts a significant influence on children's styles of responding to standardized intelligence tests and on their test achievement."
This I will admit is interesting! By chance do you have a link to the entire study? I would like to see the sample sizes that they used to obtain these results.
quote:the children fathered by black American G.I.s in postwar Germany and brought up by their German mothers have the same I.Q.s as the children of white American G.I.s and German mothers. The difference, in that case, was not the fact of the children’s blackness, as a fundamentalist would say. It was the fact of their Germanness—of their being brought up in a different culture, under different circumstances. “The mind is much more like a muscle than we’ve ever realized,” Flynn said. “It needs to get cognitive exercise. It’s not some piece of clay on which you put an indelible mark.” The lesson to be drawn from black and white differences was the same as the lesson from the Netherlands years ago: I.Q. measures not just the quality of a person’s mind but the quality of the world that person lives in.
You know, judging by how often this unreplicated 1961 Eyferth study gets cited in 2009, you’d have to say that one side in this debate is a little short on evidence. It's not as though African American G.I.s have stopped fathering half German children. Let me highlight the two main errors with that study: 1)Between 20 and 25% of the ‘black’ fathers were actually North African. 2)At the time, the US Army screened out low IQ applicants with its preinduction Army General Classification Test. The rejection rate was 34% for African Americans, compared to 3% for White Americans(you will need JSTOR access to view that paper).
quote:"An experiment by Tizard and colleagues compared black and white orphans who had all been raised in the same highly enriched institutional environment. At four or five years of age, white children had IQs of 103, black children had IQs of 108, and children of mixed race had IQs of 106."
That study has never been peer reviewed. For starters neither Jack nor Barbara Tizard(there were two, a husband and wife team) were trained psychometricians. Tizard produced results that no-one else seems to have produced, and which were very convenient for his particular ideological position(I've read before that he was a communist). This seems to me to be grounds for caution, if not suspicion. Psychometrics is one of the few scientific fields (other than paleontology!) where the possibility of outright fabrication of data has to be taken very seriously.
quote:"British blacks from Africa are a more educated group as a whole than are whites in the United Kingdom"
Can you read? I specifically explained to you all why that study is not objective. They are comparing a small cognitive elite(Black African Immigrants) against the much larger native-born white population, instead of comparing it against the native-born white cognitive elite.
quote:"A study by Witty and Jenkins (1934) identified 63 children in a sample of black Chicago schoolchildren with IQs of 125 or above and 28 with IQs of 140 or above. On the basis of their self reports about ancestry, the investigators classified the children into several categories of Europeanness. The children with IQs of 125 or above, as well as those with IQs of 140 or above, had slightly less European ancestry than the best estimate for the American black population at the time.
That study is thoroughly discussed in the comments section of this link.Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Bond (1924) early last century pointed out that the average IQ scores of African Americans from several northern states were higher than those for whites from many southern states
quote:In the United States, when matched for IQ with Whites, American Blacks have been shown to demonstrate superior “Working Memory ”
quote:African American children learn as well as white children, but that they may also exceed white children in their ability to transfer learned abilities to real tasks; further highlighting the need for better education for this group.
quote:The results indicate that when blacks and whites are tested cross-culturally that blacks may outperform whites.
In order for me to to effectively comment on these studies, I need for you to provide for me links to the actual peer reviewed sources. I did a google search for all those quotes, and oddly enough the only websites that carried any actual information in regards to them were Africa Resource and other similar "black" sites. That first study in particular done by Horace Mann Bond in 1924 is very old. Has that study even been replicated in the modern era?
quote:Research has shown that IQ test scores tend to correlate negatively with scores of practical intelligence (Sternberg, 2001, 2004). Practical intelligence can be described as a person’s ability to apply learned skills and knowledge to everyday, real life tasks; or how to handle challenging situations. There is currently a lot of evidence demonstrating IQ tests to be unable to gauge a person’s overall potential or aptitude for learning (see Bradshaw, 2001; Siegel, 1989; Sternberg & Grigorenko, 2002a). What this means essentially is that a person who scores unusually high on an IQ test may not be an especially great learner (Sternberg, 2001). In fact, high scoring individuals may actually be demonstrating deficits in other areas; particularly in areas involving adaptive behavior or “practical intelligence” (See Sternberg, 2001).
Robert Sternberg is nothing more than a far-left hack! You can find a detailed refutation to his 2001 paper here. This paper(the refutation that is) incidentally won the MENSA 2005 Excellence in Research Award.
quote:A key category is that of "caste-like" minorities who are regarded by themselves and others as inferior, and who, if they are immigrants, are not voluntary immigrants. This category includes the Harijans in India, the Buraku and Koreans in Japan, and the Maori in New Zealand.
quote:Ogbu notes that where IQ tests have been given, "the children of these caste-like minorities score about 10-15 points . . . lower than dominant group children ."
Yes I'm quite aware of this. These findings were published in his paper "Minority Education and Caste: The American System in Cross-Cultural Perspective" in the 1970s. In that paper he also argued that blacks and non-asian minorities should not be expected to perform as well as asians and whites unless they got at least as much psychic and emotional support from schools and society as whites and Asians were presumably getting(how exactly asian-americans are afforded any more special treatment as compared to other minorities is still a mystery to me ).In order to redress this school reformers therefore began to promote multicultural education (afrocentrism ) . Curricula that celebrated the cultures of racial-ethnic minorities would make minority students feel more welcome, more respected, and more engaged in their studies. At the college level, the effort to promote full and effective academic engagement has included providing ethnic housing and cultural centers, conducting separate orientation and awards ceremonies, adding college majors that focus on ethnicity, and instituting speech codes that forbid students and faculty from expressing views that individuals from racial-ethnic minorities might find offensive. Such efforts to compensate for presumably missing emotional as well as material resources has changed education in many ways, but it has done little to narrow the racial IQ gaps. Furthermore, John Ogbu also did a final book shortly before his death entitled "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" in which he chronicles the poor academic performance of african american students at an upscale Cleveland magnet school. At this school the average african american gpa was 1.9 compared to 3.45 for their white classmates. At the end of his research Ogbu concluded that the students poor academic performance wasn't due to socioeconomics, school funding, or racism, but instead attributed it to their fear of being accused of "acting white"(obviously in denial of over 100 years of psychometric research ).
quote:JACK KAPLAN:
The argument that IQ tests are valid measures of intelligence rests ultimately on the mathematically complex subject of statistical factor analysis, and therefore cannot be fully understood by people who lack technical training. But common sense should convince any reasonable person that something is fishy.
A typical intelligence test asks a variety of questions, many of which are of the type one learns to answer in school. For example, if you take a Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale test, probably the leading IQ test currently in use, you will be asked to define words; to answer factual and comprehension questions; and to do simple arithmetic problems.
An old version of the test, no longer in use, includes the following questions: what is the meaning of the word "reluctant"?; name three kinds of blood vessels; why does the state require people to get a license before they get married?; a coat that normally sells for $600 is reduced by 15 percent during a sale---what is the price of the coat?
Maybe I am missing something, but it seems perfectly plain to me that the likelihood of answering such questions correctly is heavily affected by, among other things, the quality and quantity of the education one receives as well as by one's intelligence.
In fact, it seems obvious to me that how well a person does on an IQ test depends on a variety of factors besides intelligence: education, reading habits, experience with and attitudes toward taking tests, upbringing, and mental and physical health, to name a few.
Intelligence is difficult to define precisely, but we can all agree that it refers to intellectual ability as opposed to intellectual achievement. No one, so far as I know, thinks that physical ability can be reliably measured by having people tested on a variety of physical skills--running, jumping, swimming, doing push-ups, etc.--and then doing a factor analysis of the results. Why should intellectual ability be any different?
Count me among those who regard the study of intelligence as more pseudo-science than science.
Department of Mathematics Quinnipiac College Hamden, Connecticut
And this is supposed to prove what exactly? This is the opinion of one man who is a mathematician by profession; he's not a psychologist, he's not a geneticist, he's not a neuroscientist. This is what actual science has to say on the matter:
"Brain regions controlling language and reading skills were virtually identical in identical twins, who share exactly the same genes, while siblings showed only 60 percent of the normal brain differences. This tight structural similarity in the brains of family members helps explain why brain diseases, including schizophrenia and some types of dementia, run in families. We were stunned to see that the amount of gray matter in frontal brain regions was strongly inherited, and also predicted an individuals IQ score, said Paul Thompson, the studys chief investigator and an assistant professor of neurology at the UCLA Laboratory of Neuro Imaging. The brains language areas were also extremely similar in family members. Brain regions that were found to be most similar in family members may be especially vulnerable to diseases that run in families, including some forms of psychosis and dementia." LINK
"A substantial body of literature from twin, family and adoption studies documents significant genetic effects on human intelligence. Heritability estimates range from 40 to 80% and meta-analyses suggest an overall heritability of around 50%" Dick et al, (2006) "Association of CHRM2 with IQ: Converging Evidence for Genes Influencing Intelligence." Behavioral Genetics. LINK
"Data from more than 8000 parent-offspring pairs, 25,000 sibling pairs, 10,000 twin pairs and adoption studies provide evidence that genetic factors play a substantial role in the variation of general intelligence, with heritability estimates ranging from 40 to 80%" --Burdick et al, Cognitive variation in DTNBP1 influence general cognitive ability. Human Molecular Genetics, 2006, Vol 15, No. 10.
Intelligence tests predict school performance fairly well, at least in American schools as they are now constituted. Similarly, achievement tests are fairly good predictors of performance in college and postgraduate settings.--Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns Report of a Task Force established by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association Released August 7, 1995 LINK
Recent research has begun to explore what seem to be still more direct measures of neural processing. Although there are various physiological candidates that may account for some degree of what we see as g, two are especially salient: nerve conduction velocity (NCV) and myelination. See the March 2009 New Scientist article on this: "By comparing brain maps of identical twins, which share the same genes, with fraternal twins, which share about half their genes, the team calculate that myelin integrity is genetically determined in many brain areas important for intelligence. This includes the corpus callosum, which integrates signals from the left and right sides of the body, and the parietal lobes, responsible for visual and spatial reasoning and logic (see above). Myelin quality in these areas was also correlated with scores on tests of abstract reasoning and overall intelligence (The Journal of Neuroscience, vol 29, p 2212)." LINK
For a summary of the neurobiological correlates with 'g' see Thompson & Gray's summary: LINK
It is also linked to cortical thickness: "In healthy adults, greater intelligence is associated with larger intracranial gray matter and to a lesser extent with white matter. Variations in prefrontal and posterior temporal cortical thickness are particularly linked with intellectual ability." Cerebral Cortex 2007 17(9):2163-2171
The differences are seen in children's brain development: "The researchers found that the relationship between cortex thickness and IQ varied with age, particularly in the prefrontal cortex, seat of abstract reasoning, planning, and other "executive" functions. The smartest 7-year-olds tended to start out with a relatively thinner cortex that thickened rapidly, peaking by age 11 or 12 before thinning. In their peers with average IQ, an initially thicker cortex peaked by age 8, with gradual thinning thereafter. Those in the high range showed an intermediate trajectory (see below). While the cortex was thinning in all groups by the teen years, the superior group showed the highest rates of change." LINK
Note that the general intelligence factor or 'g' is strongly predictive of academic performance. See the recent paper headed by Ian Deary: "Deary took the analysis a step further however and did a little latent variable modeling. As the IQ test had three components/subtests (verbal, nonverbal, quantitative), he correlated a latent g factor with a latent academic factor using the following subtests: English, English Literature, Math, Science, Geography, French (n=12519). The correlation between the latent factors was .81. That is: 66% of the variance in latent (general) academic achievement can be explained by latent cognitive ability---measured 5 years previously. Take home message: While general cognitive ability and academic achievement are not isomorphic, the former is necessary for the latter, while the converse is not necessarily true. Spearman suggested this more than a century ago, and, to quote the last sentence in Deary's work, These data establish the validity of g for this important life outcome. Ian J. Deary, Steve Strand, Pauline Smith and Cres Fernandes: Intelligence and educational achievement LINK
This is the case internationally: "International cognitive ability and achievement comparisons stem from different research traditions. But analyses at the interindividual data level show that they share a common positive manifold. Correlations of national ability means are even higher to very high (within student assessment studies, r = .60-.98; between different student assessment studies [PISA-sum with TIMSS-sum] r = .82-.83; student assessment sum with intelligence tests, r = .85-.86). Results of factor analyses indicate a strong g-factor of differences between nations (variance explained by the first unrotated factor: 94-95%)." The g-factor of international cognitive ability comparisons: the homogeneity of results in PISA, TIMSS, PIRLS and IQ-tests across nations Heiner Rindermann *
At a macro level this is very important to economic performance: "In longitudinal analyses with various samples of nations, education and cognitive abilities appear to be more important as developmental factors for GDP than economic freedom. Education and intelligence are also more relevant to economic welfare than vice versa, but at the national level the influence of economic wealth on cognitive development is still substantial." "Relevance of education and intelligence at the national level for the economic welfare of people" Intelligence Volume 36, Issue 2, March-April 2008, Pages 127-142Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Research on the assimilation of immigrants has raised the topic of the extent to which the socioeconomic attainments of the second generation differ from mainstream (i.e., the third-and-higher generation) Americans. We investigate this issue for African Americans using the Current Population Survey from 1994 to 2004. Our results indicate that the schooling and wages of second-generation African American women exceed those of the third-and-higher generation African Americans. Furthermore, second-generation African American women do not face a direct racial socioeconomic disadvantage at least in the sense that their schooling and wages are also greater than the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white women. Although years of schooling among second-generation African American men is on average as high as for the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white men, and the wages of second-generation African American men lag behind those of the third-and-higher non-Hispanic white men even after controlling for basic demographic characteristics. Second-generation African American men have higher wages than the third-and-higher generation African American men, but the wages of second-generation African American men are about 11% less than the third-and-higher generation non-Hispanic white men after controlling for schooling and other basic demographic characteristics. The theoretical implications of these findings for theories of the assimilation of African Americans are discussed.
no further questions
And btw, these were for the most part copied and pasted from the exact posts i linked to (it wouldn't have been necissary to read the entire thread as you kept implying.
quote:how exactly asian-americans are afforded any more special treatment as compared to other minorities is still a mystery to me
So, according to you Native and African Americans are in exactly the same cultural boat as any immigrants and minorities anywhere, such as descendants of Arab, Italian, Jewish, Chinese and Japanese American immigrants who come over here? Correct?
Just so we're clear.
quote:In what ways exactly are African Americans less modern than White and Asian Americans?
Economically.
Not only that, but alot of the black middle class has been there for barely a generation if that and could very well retain cultural ties. The Flynn affect is very real and in my observation we (black Americans) tend to culturally resemble Southerners. From a genetic standpoint. But maybe there are genetic causes for Southern, black and earlier IQ test takers as well as psuedo-scientific "fastly evolving" genes that explain the Flynn affect more properly than shifts between cultural mediums.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote: What then is it that accounts for the differences in terms of life outcomes between Jewish Americans and African Americans given that anti-semetism is almost just as bad as anti-black racism?
The comparison of African-Americans and Jewish Americans compares a unique
Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything elsw. Jews to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Fawal: I'm guessing that this vauge, and highly convoluted explanation is somehow meant to answer the questions that I posed to you
Nope; actually, that's what all the citations i posted at the bottom of the page [from the links] were supposed to be for, but if you say you fail to grasp their relevence to your questions i won't disagree. The rant was simply meant to get your mind going.
The point was and is that people under basic stresses and anxieties (such as feeling in un safe / un sure and/or 'weak' and powerless) tend to not end up being as informationally versed and developed as people not under such duress feeling safe and secure.
I thought you might not understand however, which is why i've already stated no further questions. Purhaps half-sigma can help you.
For now my opinion is curious -- accepting, but skeptical. Jews and Chinese American immigrants are more informationally versed than black Americans? Ok. This, some suppose, has a genetic basis to it. Sure (here i'm skeptical).
Gene expression for me holds the keys to the answer.
So, i'm done, but everyone can feel free to continue to post information you will perhaps enlighten me with (in terms of my healthy skepticism).
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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I am interested in knowing why Blacks excel in sports which takes a high amount of cognitive abilities.
Professional athletes and especially those involved in team sports must operate within highly dynamic and multi-dimensional situational contexts (Vickers, 2007) requiring a very complex set of cognitive skills (see Kioumourtzoglou et al, 1998; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
Athletes must be able to make split-second decisions under the pressures of competition (Vickers, 2007). Hundreds of times in the course of a basketball game, for instance, a player is faced with a decision that must be made rapidly, to shoot or pass, for example, and if to pass, to which teammate.
The player has to take in a complex, rapidly changing situation, and doing this requires a highly specialized and practiced kind of perceptual processing (Huciński et al, 2007; Apostolidis et al 2004; Wyżnikiewicz-Kopp, 1977;Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
There is a large amount of propositional information the players must apply to the scene to appropriately “take in” the situation. Some players are better at recognizing situations than others. Thus, players with similar physical abilities do not always respond in physically or behaviourally similar ways to similar situations, because their cognitive abilities and responses are different (Huciński et al, 2007; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
In view of the diversity and variability of motor stimuli, basketball demands particular cognitive abilities to be able to adjust one’s internal states to diverse situations, or to think tactically (Huciński et al, 2007).
Besides decision making and perceptual skills there are also the basic properties that structure the game. For example, who is in the game? Of those in the game, who is a teammate and who is an opponent? This information is not literally contained in a perceptual or image-like representation of the situation. There are also more global properties of the game, such as the score, the time left on the time clock, the time left in the game, the coach's game plan and/or latest instructions, and what defense the opposition is playing. Second, there are specific properties of individual players: height, jumping ability, speed, shooting ability, and so forth. Third, there are more transient properties: who is guarding whom, what position each player is playing, who is having a good game and who isn't, who is shooting well, who is in foul trouble, etc. So sports which blacks dominate takes extreme amounts of cognitive abilities.
What do you have to say Fawwass?
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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Currently, whites have the monopoly of science. They can release pseudo science and have it accepted into the mainstream. African-Americans must venture into this field and have our psychologists refute Rushton and all of those like him. We also need to have Black Supremacist psychologists write books opposite of Race, Evolution, and Behavior. White kids perform better than African-Americans because Blacks are subconsciously taught they are inferior. White people teach that they are the fathers of History, Mathematics, and science. They teach that Hippocrates is the father of medicine when Imhotep a black man produced medical scripts predating Hippocrates existence. Whites people also teach they invented the Pythagoras theorem when it was used in Egypt FIRST! When you never get recognition for your amazing accomplishments you start to fail academically because you have become a tree with no roots.
I still can’t believe you have whites telling us blacks we are inferior. I laugh at such a bizarre idea considering we are the fathers of medical sciences and mathematical principles. We are the original inventors of the disciplines that helped to bring the world into the technological age and yet somehow we are intellectually inferior? HAHAHHA!
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ChairmanofBA: IQ tests don't really mean anything. They don't measure musical, creativity, and artistic abilities.
To me, IQ tests don't at all evaluate that genius that is responsible for getting us from the stages of hunting meat and foraging plants for food to where we are now.
It's an appreciative and adaptive genius that can be seen in people like musicians and artists.
The genius that said, these aren't stone and wood, these are instruments (smoothing/grinding tools, hunting tools, weapons, etc), is the same mind that said these animals and berries aren't just meals, they're renewable resources. It's the same mind that came up with speech / language and when the time came writing. The same one that came up with ceramics, adhesives, medicines, etcetera.
There are those students who are mentally fit/knowledgable, but what of those who are constantly discovering or on the verge of discovering things that are chapters ahead because they not only have taken their time in getting a good understanding/grasping but are good at things like seeing patterns and / or making connections?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: There has been no closing of the IQ gap. That is impossible because intelligence is heritable. Whites who are born with low IQs inherited their low IQs and there is nothing they can do about it; negroes born with high IQs inherited their high IQs and they cannot unlearn it. On average though, Whites are born with higher IQs than negroes.
1)If so, then explain why the average twin differential for Jensen's(1974) monozygotic twin study was 6.0 points. The cultures/environments in which the twins grew up were uniform Euro cultures.
2) In fact, approximately 12% of the Jensen twin subjects registered differentials of more than 14 points--with some as high as 20 points.
3)Sure, cognitive abilities are heritable but not necessarily directly from immediate parents. The parents of Einstein were just individuals of ordinary intelligence and his children all turned ot be just average types.
4)Explain why the IQ of AAs is on the average higher than those of areas that Europeans claim produced "civilisation". Examples are India(81), Iran(Persia)[83], Mexico[Incas and Mayas][83], Iraq(Ancient Mesopotamia)[83], Greece(the source of Western civilisation)94. Guatemala(78), Honduras(83).
5)In Europe--Lynn(1974) pointed out that Italian and Portugese migrants to the U.S. some 50+ years ago averaged 83 points on IQ tests. Scandinavians scored at the U.S average.
6) The point is that while cognitive abilities(g factor) are heritable, the cultural/learning environment plays a decisive role-- which explains why white middle class people are fanatical about getting their children into the "right" schools.
7) If "intelligence" was purely heritable, explain IQ test results are regularly normed--and this applies to Europe where testing is done only on Europeans.
8)Here are some other scores: Israel(94), Brazil(85), Ireland(95), Cambodia(87), and Pakistan(81).
Good points all lamin. Flynn showed that scores of many whites back in the 1950s and 1960s would be deemed as "dumb" or "below par" today. It it were purely heritable, changes at the magnitudes that have taken place would not exist. Jews for example did poorly on Army intelligence tests during WWI. Today their scores far outstrip supposedly pacesetting 'Aryans'.
And let us not forget that Asians are superior. All the "Aryan" talk doesn't mean diddly. Asians are kicking their asses thoroughly.
The Asian-white gap is actually bigger than it appears because of the practice of lumping numerous groups under the 'Asian" banner including native Hawaiians, Samoans, and other Pacific Islanders, plus S.E Asians like Hmong refugees and others deemed to fit. Asian scores are also underreported due to the large number of Asian immigrants that are just learning English. When apples to apples are compared - native born, East Asians versus whites in the USA, the IQ score gap between whites and Asians widens in favor of Asians. Indeed Asians surpass whites on several counts. Racists for example like to point out the lack of blacks in Advanced Placement classes, but when the finger is redirected at whites, you find that (quote)
"Asian-American high school students complete Advanced Placement courses at triple the white rate. Whites are strikingly behind Asians in their commitment to taking these academically rigorous courses... (Thernstrom A. (2004) No Excuses: p. 92).
"The Asian presence [in higher education] is striking. Roughly 4 percent of Americans today are of Asian background. And yet Asian Americans made up 27 percent of the 2000-2001 freshmen class at MIT, 25 percent at Stanford, 24 percent at Cal tech.. 17 percent at Harvard, 15 percent at both Brown and Yale.... [etc etc.] They are far more likely to graduate from college- a startling fact. In 2000, a majority (54 percent) of Asian Americans ages 25-29 had a bachelor's degree or more as compared to with just a third (34 percent) of whites. The 20-point Asian-white graduation rate gap us even larger than the 16-point black-white gap. The Asian success story in graduate education is equally impressive. For example, Asian-American students now make up one-fifth of all the medical students in the United States, five times their share of the population as a whole. Given the enormous prestige and high income of doctors, this is a stunning achievement... [At the leading law schools] Asians currently account for 10 to 20 percent of the law students at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, COrnell, Northwestern, Berkeley, UCLA, and the University of Southern California." (Thernstrom, 2004: p. 85).
Nationwide data at the K-12 level such as NAEP scores often underreports Asian superiority, due to small sample sizes, lack of reporting data, lumping in Pacific Islanders, etc. Because to these problems, in many such assessments Asian students at the lower K-12 levels appear similar to whites, but the small datasets mask clear Asian advantages. In areas where there is more data, such as at the high school level in Math, this superiority is clear. (quote):
"Asian-American twelth-graders outscored whites by an average of about 10 points on the four mathmetics assessments conducted between 1990 and 2000." (Thernstrom A. (2004) No Excuses. p. 86).
Asians are a remarkable 2.5 times more likely than their white classmates to qualify for admission to high- end and selective, top-tier college systems like the University of California system. Asians are also more disciplined. They watch less TV than whites and do more homework. For example, (quote):
"only a quarter of white students in middle school spend more than an hour daily on schoolwork, but half of all Asian-American children do so. By the twelfth grade, the difference is even starker. Less than a quarter of whites, but 53 percent of Asians, report doing over an hour of homework every day.."
Note that research finding again: {quote}
"The 20-point Asian-white graduation rate gap us even larger than the 16-point black-white gap."Posts: 124 | From: Zurich | Registered: May 2009
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WHITE boys are virtually BOTTOM of the class in a shock new British schools report, we can reveal today.
They do WORSE in their GCSEs than children from almost EVERY other group in the country.Caribbean, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, black African and Chinese pupils-as well as girls from any background-are all well ahead of them according to latest research by government education
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
quote: IQ tests don't really mean anything. They don't measure musical, creativity, and artistic abilities.
Howard Gardner's theory might give comfort to some who don't want to drill blacks to overtake whites in standardized tests, like Asians eventually did, but obviously IQ tests mean something, even if you want to argue they are biased and environmental.
quote: Your IQ is not your destiny according to recent studies and it is also not need for success.
Maybe so, but then why is Asia the fastest developing nonwhite region? They are a success in terms of development comparable to Africa lags behind.
quote: White kids perform better than African-Americans because Blacks are subconsciously taught they are inferior.
Agreed. So instead of diverting to Gardner's theory of seven or eight intelligences to avoid IQ tests why not do like Japanese who were below whites once and now they score above them (Amos Wilson, Awakening The Natural Genius in Black Children, 1991).
quote: And let us not forget that Asians are superior.
With language like this are you saying blacks are inferior?
quote:It's an appreciative and adaptive genius that can be seen in people like musicians and artists.
^ what rubbish. This is what white liberalism has done to blacks.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote: Maybe so, but then why is Asia the fastest developing nonwhite region? They are a success in terms of development comparable to Africa lags behind.
This is a blatant false statement and you are forgetting how Europeans underdeveloped Africa. Africa is home to some of the fastest growing cities and Bontswana has an equal living standard to Turkey and Mexico.
quote: Agreed. So instead of diverting to Gardner's theory of seven or eight intelligences to avoid IQ tests why not do like Japanese who were below whites once and now they score above them (Amos Wilson, Awakening The Natural Genius in Black Children, 1991).
We perform better than Asians in some areas. Africans are more educated than Asians.
posted
Mexico is in Americas and when I said Asia I was referring to the well known Asian Tigers and China not so much Turkey. In any event I don't think anyone will argue Asia (East Asia) is ahead of Africa in terms of economic development.
However, in your rush to show "THE WORLD'S FASTEST GROWING ECONOMY" you fail to realize the distinction between growth and development. You can have impressive economic growth, especially if you have abundance of natural resources that are exploited by a local elite and MNCs, but the people can still be left out of that boom. In fact this was a feature of colonialism and it is a feature of neocolonialism today. I remember reading an article in New African where Angola was growing at 10 or more a year, but few would argue that development is taking place.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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I realize Mexico is in America I made the comparison between Botswana and Mexico to show how Africa s improving. I also made the comparison to Turkey to show that Botswana was on par with some European countries. Africa despite being colonized is showing improvement in several areas.
China, was never colonized, enslaved, raped, and robbed the way Africa was. China was never forced to have rival tribes live amongst each other. No one has ever assimilated their native cultures it was Europeans who underdeveloped Africa.
Why did you ignore my info about Blacks outdoing Asians?
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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OMG, if Botswana is an example of Africa improving then I feel so sorry for you. Yes Europeans underdeveloped Africa, but the British left Singapore as a god dam swamp, I guess Lee Yuan Yu(?) had a choice to complain like you or develop the people and country and guess what he did? As for China not being colonized, enslaved, raped, and robbed the way Africa was, how long does it take for human agency to kick in and for history to stop being a determinant? As African leaders mess things up further with their proxy wars for whites, Swiss bank accounts and austerity economic measures that do nothing to develop the people but pauperize them, don't you think Walter Rodney's book gets more and more irrelevant? Or is Africa doomed forever by history? I guess I'm asking do you believe in free will or is history (like genetics for some) an irreversible determinant?
quote:We perform better than Asians in some areas....Why did you ignore my info about Blacks outdoing Asians?
Because blacks performing better than Asians in some areas has nothing to do with my point: Asia today is more developed than Africa.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Botswana is an example of Africa improving. You restating my position in a sarcastic overtone does absolutely nothing to debunk the notion. Botswana has become more economically more successful under black rule than when they were under white rule. You have yet to refute this or even challenge it. After receiving independence Botswana has had one of the fastest growth rates per capita in the world. It has the fourth highest gross national income in Africa and has a living standard equal to Mexico and Turkey. It also has a higher living standard than Botswana is economically sound and after the cure for AIDS is released it will surpass several small European countries. Singapore gained independence from Britain in 1965 and never went through what Africa went experienced. Africans were enslaved, beaten, killed, and robbed from. When Europeans left the citizens were giving no training in running a country. They were left disenfranchised and totally unfit to run a government. Europeans never enslaved Singaporeans and colonization *AND* slavery is to blame for most of Africa’s problems. The colonial powers had did not care about the indigenous people and treated them less than human. Whites left while giving the native people who they dehumanized no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure. Rodney’s book is not irrelevant its one of the most important books an African read because he proves why Africa is in the condition it’s in. You could place some blame on Africa’s condition to African leaders but they are simply mimicking their colonial masters who exploited and subjugated their citizens. Many territorial conflicts on the continent are because of Europeans establishing artificial borders ignoring cultural diffrences amongst native population. Africa is not doomed by history one day ever African nation shall be a super-power after all it’s Africans who invented the disciplines that brought the world into the technological age. You said Africa was more underdeveloped than Asia(Which I don't deny). You shifted the blame on Africans when automatically intimates you believe in black intellectual inferiority (which I find hilarious). Blacks academically outperforming Asians destroys that myth. It disproves Africa being in it's current condition because of genetic predisposition to intellectual inferiority because we are outdoing both whites and Asians.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote: Botswana is an example of Africa improving. You restating my position in a sarcastic overtone does absolutely nothing to debunk the notion.
If you use one country in Africa to conclude that the continent is improving, whats to stop someone from doing the same with, say, the DRC is an example of Africa not improving?
The rest of your post are the same old tired arguments that leaves no room for human agency, lifes complexities and choice. Which is probably why you couldn't answer: how long does it take for human agency to kick in and for history to stop being a determinant?
quote: It disproves Africa being in it's current condition because of genetic predisposition to intellectual inferiority because we are outdoing both whites and Asians.
First I didn't advance the genetic argument and second I said Asia is more developed than Africa, successful African immigrants in the *US* don't change this fact.
quote: Whites left while giving the native people who they dehumanized no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure.
This is so simplistic and patronising you must be a white liberal or "Doug M" he lives to insult Africans like this.
Africans inherited the colonial school system, secondary schools and various universities. It was not a case where Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless. In fact this is a racist stereotype.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Brandon, my acessment of fawal is mainly due to his familiarity with racial debates in America. Most immigrants tend to focus upon their own community instead of issues in America. Only very assimilated communites;general second generation tend to focus on racial phenomenon. I doubt that many Tunisians have settled in America to have second generation like other Arabic speaking populations like Egyptians(mostly Christians),Iraqis,Syrians or Lebanese.
Alot of his familiarity with the subject made me suspect he could be a writer from right-wing blogs that specialize in the whole iq-race debate. Either way its immaterial considering he articulated his arguements in a orderly fashion.
I cannot speak for Magrebians,however, many do seem to have issues with darker skinned African populations. Many fo the ''white'' Berber groups tend to distance themselves away from the continent as a whole and even connect themselves to southern Europeans. This is all from my personal observation. The same also seems to apply to many modern Egyptians regardless of hue.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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So, this is a black intelligence thread and its centered around how well "sovereign African governments" are doing half a Century after Africa acheived "independence" and how well African Americans do in Western "intelligence quotient" tests.
Weaksauce.
quote:Bogle: but how long does it take for human agency to kick in and overshadow history
Good question, though i'm not sure the "history" which you speak of is at all yet *history*.
I would say the developing machinations at work then are in full fledged affect now.
As for people overcoming certain circumstances, that is a good question.
Some phenomena, like a certain drought at an inconveniant time for a government (such as, facing the threat of losing control over resources, political instability, both, war, etc) that cause entire Empires to weaken, can be overcome in several decades -OR- overcome in a couple centuries -OR- NEVER overcome until the rise of a NEW EMPIRE.
Any debate over whether it is the people or empire that is inadequate is itself inadequate. A better discussion is focused on how people do in a given empire and how we could get a desired outcome.
quote:Bogle: what rubbish.
I disagree.
I say the people that create and discover great uses for things and great wisdoms that other people cop for generations are more genius than someone who is able to learn those wisdoms.
The encyclopedic storing of symbols is to humans as being a vagina is to Stalking Manginas and as having claws and teeth is to the lion.
When i'd first heard about race-intelligence debates i'd quickly analyzed things, laughed, and moved on as there were other things that were more worth learning.
As i began to explore the net and see just how many people have a passionate belief that other people just can't think, i (stupidly) began to become more interested (waste of time) as i thought that such propaganda must be eliminated as it could hurt black confidence.
Meanwhile i didn't notice that me myself having encountered such propaganda and yet still having a well above average IQ.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Is it just me or whenever this queer posts its like reading Foucault on speed! Jeeves, I'm afraid only your fellow Bohemian queer folks know what you are trying to say.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Why you guys even bother to address the idiot Kemp in matters as mundane as this is beyone me!
All the idiot has is his stupid Bell Curve studies which were DEBUNKED long time ago!!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:I would say the developing machinations at work [then]
i.e. as in the West for those of you who are challenged ... but could still score above average on IQ test.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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I find it interesting that "neonazi connections" can be made with Murray & Herrnstein's "The Bell Curve". This is interesting because one author is a Jew and the book claims Ashkenazis are the most intelligent. Hence Fawal and others point to the Jewish list of Nobel Peace Prize Laureates as a supposed example of Jewish exceptionality. Bell Curve is proof that white Jews are cut from the same tree as white nords or Berbers.
In 1994 Richard Herrnstein, a Jew, and his non-Jewish co-author, Charles Murray, came out with a controversial book, The Bell Curve, hell-bent on again resurrecting in new form the old racist and classist argument that intelligence is hereditary in that some "races" are inherently smarter -- and some, conversely, stupider -- than others. But the authors are especially particular about Jewish superiority. "Ashkenazic Jews of European origins," they say, "test higher (for intelligence) than any other ethnic group." Such Jews "constantly show their disproportionate level of success, usually by orders of magnitude, in various inventories of scientific and artistic achievement." OTHER JEWISH CONTRIBUTIONS TO MODERN RACIST CURRENTSPosts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:If you use one country in Africa to conclude that the continent is improving, whats to stop someone from doing the same with, say, the DRC is an example of Africa not improving?
The only problem is overall Africa is improving because more democratic elections have been taking place. This website has an overview of other areas Africa is improving in you should look into it.
The rest of your post are the same old tired arguments that leaves no room for human agency, lifes complexities and choice. Which is probably why you couldn't answer: how long does it take for human agency to kick in and for history to stop being a determinant?
What to you mean by human agency? Anyways, I foresee Africa surpassing Asian and European in one hundred years.
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First I didn't advance the genetic argument
Understood. I stand corrected.
quote: and second I said Asia is more developed than Africa, successful African immigrants in the *US* don't change this fact.
I never tried to refute this fact because I agree with it. I misunderstood your argument to begin with. I thought you were trying to advance the argument that blacks were mentally inferior. On that one dispute I concede. Now if you believe that Africa's current condition is due to "innate mental inferiority" I will refute that but only if you subscribe to that belief.
quote:
This is so simplistic and patronising you must be a white liberal or "Doug M" he lives to insult Africans like this.
I'm not insulting Black people at all I was presenting an argument.
quote: Africans inherited the colonial school system,
We had out own school systems before Europeans entered Africa.
quote: secondary schools and various universities.
Africa had schools before European invaders.
quote: It was not a case where Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless. In fact this is a racist stereotype.
It was like that. Europeans destroyed our schools and universities and set up their own colonial schools that taught from a Eurocentric perspective. They did leave the people ignorant of true history which is needed for blacks succeed.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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Also Boogle what do you think about Botswana having the fastest growing economy in the world from 1966 to 2001? China came next followed by Singapore.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote: The only problem is overall Africa is improving at least more democratic elections are being hold.
Democratic elections are not a sign of economic improvement as there can be development without democracy e.g. Singapore, Asian Tigers, China and democracy without people development e.g. South Africa.
quote: What to you mean by human agency?
Human beings are cognitive beings, not machines, hence they can choose the life they live.
quote: We had out own school systems before Europeans entered Africa.
That's not the point. You said whites left without giving Africans training in economic and political infrastructure, which is not true.
quote: Europeans destroyed our schools and universities and set up their own colonial schools that taught from a Eurocentric perspective.
And now you contradict yourself. Before you said Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless, you said "It was like that". Now you say it was not like that. LOL
quote:They did leave the people ignorant of true history which is needed for blacks succeed.
Before you said it was no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure. But I can understand your contradictions as you are trying to reconcile your outdated Walter Rodney thesis with contemporary realities facing Africa.
quote:Also Boogle what do you think about Botswana having the fastest growing economy in the world from 1966 to 2001? China came next followed by Singapore.
I already told you economic growth means nothing. It's economic development that count. China and Singapore are industrial nations, Botswana just a big diamond mine for white people.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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^folks, the irony.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
] as alot of Jews argue this way too.
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) . Curricula that celebrated the cultures of racial-ethnic minorities would make minority students feel more welcome, more respected, and more engaged in their studies. At the college level, the effort to promote full and effective academic engagement has included providing ethnic housing and cultural centers, conducting separate orientation and awards ceremonies, adding college majors that focus on ethnicity, and instituting speech codes that forbid students and faculty from expressing views that individuals from racial-ethnic minorities might find offensive. Such efforts to compensate for presumably missing emotional as well as material resources has changed education in many ways, but it has done little to narrow the racial IQ gaps. Furthermore, John Ogbu also did a final book shortly before his death entitled "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" in which he chronicles the poor academic performance of african american students at an upscale Cleveland magnet school. At this school the average african american gpa was 1.9 compared to 3.45 for their white classmates. At the end of his research Ogbu concluded that the students poor academic performance wasn't due to socioeconomics, school funding, or racism, but instead attributed it to their fear of being accused of "acting white"(obviously in denial of over 100 years of psychometric research 
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