quote:Democratic elections are not a sign of economic improvement as there can be development without democracy e.g. Singapore, Asian Tigers, China and democracy without people development e.g. South Africa.
I never said more Democratic elections taking place in Africa was a sign of economic improvement.
quote: Human beings are cognitive beings, not machines, hence they can choose the life they live.
Thanks for bringing that concept to my attention but like I said in the original post I see African nations surpassing Asian and European nations in one hundred years.
quote: That's not the point. You said whites left without giving Africans training in economic and political infrastructure, which is not true.
You're correct. Africans were given very little and inefficient training in economic and political infrastracture.
quote: And now you contradict yourself. Before you said Africans were left country-in-hand illiterate and clueless, you said "It was like that". Now you say it was not like that. LOL
There was no contradiction. Africans were left clueless of there history and there accomplishments. And Europeans set up schools to misseducate Africans.
quote:
Before you said it was no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure.
I stand by what I originally said. Africans were given little to no training in the maintenance of economic and political infrastracture. Again, there were no contradictions.
Whites set up schools to keep blacks ignorant.
quote:But I can understand your contradictions as you are trying to reconcile your outdated Walter Rodney thesis with contemporary realities facing Africa.
Walter Rodney thesis may be old but it remains valid just like Diop's black Egypt theory that was once ridiculed by white "scholars".
quote: Before you said it was no training for the maintenance of economic of political infrastructure.
quote: I already told you economic growth means nothing. It's economic development that count. China and Singapore are industrial nations, Botswana just a big diamond mine for white people.
Understood. Now why do you believe Africa is in it's current condition? Why do you believe they aren't industrious?
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote: I never said more Democratic elections taking place in Africa was a sign of economic improvement.
Then why do you bring up democratic elections in a debate about economic development in Africa?
quote: I see African nations surpassing Asian and European nations in one hundred years.
How sad.
quote: There was no contradiction. Africans were left clueless of there history and there accomplishments. And Europeans set up schools to misseducate Africans.
Yes there is a contradiction. First you said nothing was left for them, then you said "very little and inefficient training", now you switch from training in government and economics to them not teaching us about our history! Are you serious?!! Why would they do that?!?! Of course the colonials are going to leave a colonial school system in place so as to administer a system [the colonial infrastructure] that was imposed by them. Stop whining please, as this was the case in Asia too. Europeans left colonial school system to train natives to administer the system they left. What we do with it after they left is up to us. Are you going to blame Europeans for African governments sticking to Eurocentric curricula and not following what Diop etc advocated?
quote: I stand by what I originally said. Africans were given little to no training in the maintenance of economic and political infrastracture.
You are starting to resort to dishonesty, sure sign you are desperate. Initially you said NO training was given.
quote: Walter Rodney thesis may be old but it remains valid just like Diop's black Egypt theory that was once ridiculed by white "scholars".
He is irrelevant today. Rodney, like all good Marxists, thought all society would, based on Hegelian dialectics, inevitably become Marxist. But according to Rodney Europeans intervened and stunted that process to Marxist development in Africa. Of course this is a very Eurocentric view of development, but you black leftys never realise this. Oh well.
quote: Understood. Now why do you believe Africa is in it's current condition? Why do you believe they aren't industrious?
A myriad of reasons, but leadership plays a big role. European predator capitalism is a given, they are looking out for their interests and no one is going to feel sorry for you and cut you some slack. This is where our leadership should have stepped in and looked out for our own interests. Unfortunately they have been more interested in Swiss bank accounts, white wives and pleasing whites.
As I said Singapore was a swamp and they turned it around with good leadership. Your favorite example Botswana cannot compare. It is still a primary producing country because the only thing whites want from it are diamonds and the small black elite are happy to keep the country as mono cash crop exporter. It is no model of development for anyone.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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I have already addressed that Tizard study in one of my earlier posts above.
quote:They proved a long time ago that tests like SAT were biased with such experiments as the the urban SAT and PBS' secrets of the SAT. This is only reinforced by Flynn's latest work showing a closing of the gap as he used standardized test scores, including AFQT.
You know I find it really quite surprising that as a black person yourself, that you would use the tired and lame excuse put forward by many white liberals that the SATs somehow are racist and culturally biased, because basically what they are saying is that black people aren't capable of learning at the same level that other people are. Vocabulary, Writing Ability, Grammar, Reading Comprehension, Improving Sentences, Logical Reasoning, Spatial Inferences, Data Interpretation, Arithmetic, and Basic Algebra comprise 95% of the SAT. Are you then conceding to the idea that blacks in general are lacking as far as these skills are concerned? Moreover in 2005 the College Board has completely revised the old SAT releasing a newer version that is now racially and socioeconomically blind (no longer do words like "regatta" or "wicket" appear) but still the trends remain: asians first followed by whites and other minorities with blacks dead last. Why is this?
I have already provided you with links that deal with Linda Gottfredson's rebuttal to Flynn's hypothesis. Furthermore, the Flynn Effect rests on the supposition that IQ is entirely environmental, if you read the studies that I have posted above in bold you will quickly see that this is not in keeping with the most recent neurobiological findings.
quote:Your logic is flawed. Black immigrants in no way represent an elite class anymore than any other immigrant population and many of these people easily outperform immigrant Europeans. The variables are the same, unlike your selected natural-born elite class Americans. Whenever the playing field is level there always seems to be a slight advantage for Blacks and this kind of spin can't mitigate this fact since the data is clear.
And as far as that statement about how "whenever the playing field is level there always seems to be a slight advantage for blacks," I drew reference to John Ogbu's final book "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" in one of my posts above. In that book, the playing field was level and still the blacks underperformed.
Hardly! Read the entire source! Nowhere in that study does it state that blacks are genetically predisposed to "weeding out" harmful mutations. Incidentally though, it should be noted that recent science has shown that many "negative" mutations that result in several genetic diseases such as Tay-Sachs, Canavan disease, Gaucher's disease, Niemann-Pick disease, Mucolipidosis type IV, and other lipid storage disorders and sphingolipid diseases, do in fact correlate with high intelligence, and others are known to cause neurons to grow an increased number of connections to neighboring neurons(these diseases are found predominantly amongst Ashkenazic Jewish populations). See: Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews? Steven Pinker - Jews, Genes and Intelligence A Jewish Gene for Intelligence? Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:And btw, these were for the most part copied and pasted from the exact posts i linked to (it wouldn't have been necissary to read the entire thread as you kept implying.
If this is somehow meant to imply that I purposefully skipped over that citation, I didn't. If you look at the order in which I addressed your quotes you will see that I addressed them in order relevance, not in the order to which you stated them. I simply missed that citation accidentally. That study that you posted is from the paper The Socioeconomic Attainments of Second-Generation African Americans. If you read that entire paper IN CONTEXT you will realize two things: 1) The study deals with second generation African Americans, i.e. the children of immigrants and not blacks who have lived here since the founding of this country. 2) The study is discussing wages and how higher educated african americans are paid more then those that do not have a higher education. They found that those with higher degrees don't really have a disadvantage when compared with whites or hispanics. In other words, the excuse that so many of you love to use about "the white man holding you down," is moot.
quote:Economically.
Not only that, but alot of the black middle class has been there for barely a generation if that and could very well retain cultural ties.
Point taken as far as white americans are concerned, however I completely disagree with this assessment when applied to asian americans. Most Asians who first immigrated to the US were in a similar or worse condition as american blacks economically speaking. The prosperity that you see amongst many of them today is simply due to the fact that many of them excelled.
quote:The Flynn affect is very real and in my observation we (black Americans) tend to culturally resemble Southerners.
If you choose to cling to that notion religiously then by all means be my guest. In contemporary differential psychology, the Flynn Effect is still hotly debated territory; and I have already cited several studies that put Flynn's hypothesis in limbo. Furthermore there really isn't any use in debating a religious fanatic, because the true believer will never be convinced regardless of how much evidence you give them.
quote:But maybe there are genetic causes for Southern, black and earlier IQ test takers as well as psuedo-scientific "fastly evolving" genes that explain the Flynn affect more properly than shifts between cultural mediums.
You have not given me any studies validating the assertion that early Northern Blacks, scored higher than Southern Whites. You quoted a very old study by Horace Mann Bond and I asked you to provide me with the entire peer reviewed study so that I may access it. Notice that unlike yourself, whenever I quote a study, I always cross-reference so that you all may validate them.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:The comparison of African-Americans and Jewish Americans compares a unique
Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything elsw. Jews to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority.
quote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EGLkvPfCbU
OH CRY ME A RIVER!!! First of all let me just make it perfectly clear, this world is composed of over 6 billion people, and most of us really couldn't give a f*ck about black americans pining over slavery. And secondly, blacks weren't by any means the only people who suffered. There is no group of people on the face of this earth who weren't enslaved at one point or another. Blacks weren't the only ones who were lynched during Jim Crow(in 1915 you had the lynching of Leo Frank a Jewish engineer, which was the catalyst behind the formation of the Anti-Defamation League). They weren't the only ones who had to endure segregation. Asians had to endure the Asian Exclusion Act, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Japanese American Internment and not to mention working under virtual slave-like conditions in the construction of the Trans Continental Railroad. Jews have had to deal with over 2000 years of antisemetism. And furthermore if you have even bothered to do a little research you would know that the Irish, Germans, Jews, Italians, Spaniards, Hispanics, Slavs, and Greeks(i.e. non Anglo-Saxons), were not considered to be "white" at different points in american history(in the case of Jews it was not until after World War II). So as far as I am concerned, that excuse about racial discrimination really doesn't hold any merit.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Then why do you bring up democratic elections in a debate about economic development in Africa?
I believed it was a debate about the overall progression of Africa.
quote:How sad.
W
What's so sad about it? Do you think it's not a viable approximation? Or is it the lengthy amount of time.
quote:Yes there is a contradiction. First you said nothing was left for them,
I have never stated “nothing” was left for them. I did say they were left disenfranchised and totally unfit to run a government which I stand by.
quote: then you said "very little and inefficient training", now you switch from training in government and economics to them not teaching us about our history!
I never switched because a combination of these factors left Africa in its current condition.
quote: Are you serious?!! Why would they do that?!?!
I never said they had a reason to do so. I am saying Africa is in its current condition because they did not do so.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:IQ tests don't really mean anything. They don't measure musical, creativity, and artistic abilities.
I have highlighted some of the most recent scientific studies that completely knock down that position, and still you persist in expressing this antiquated view. So I will post them again:
Intelligence tests predict school performance fairly well, at least in American schools as they are now constituted. Similarly, achievement tests are fairly good predictors of performance in college and postgraduate settings.--Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns Report of a Task Force established by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association Released August 7, 1995 LINK
Note that the general intelligence factor or 'g' is strongly predictive of academic performance. See the recent paper headed by Ian Deary: "Deary took the analysis a step further however and did a little latent variable modeling. As the IQ test had three components/subtests (verbal, nonverbal, quantitative), he correlated a latent g factor with a latent academic factor using the following subtests: English, English Literature, Math, Science, Geography, French (n=12519). The correlation between the latent factors was .81. That is: 66% of the variance in latent (general) academic achievement can be explained by latent cognitive ability---measured 5 years previously. Take home message: While general cognitive ability and academic achievement are not isomorphic, the former is necessary for the latter, while the converse is not necessarily true. Spearman suggested this more than a century ago, and, to quote the last sentence in Deary's work, These data establish the validity of g for this important life outcome. Ian J. Deary, Steve Strand, Pauline Smith and Cres Fernandes: Intelligence and educational achievement LINK (Actual Study) LINK (Commentary)
quote:Your IQ is not your destiny according to recent studies and it is also not need for success.
quote:I am interested in knowing why Blacks excel in sports which takes a high amount of cognitive abilities.
Professional athletes and especially those involved in team sports must operate within highly dynamic and multi-dimensional situational contexts (Vickers, 2007) requiring a very complex set of cognitive skills (see Kioumourtzoglou et al, 1998; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
Athletes must be able to make split-second decisions under the pressures of competition (Vickers, 2007). Hundreds of times in the course of a basketball game, for instance, a player is faced with a decision that must be made rapidly, to shoot or pass, for example, and if to pass, to which teammate.
The player has to take in a complex, rapidly changing situation, and doing this requires a highly specialized and practiced kind of perceptual processing (Huciński et al, 2007; Apostolidis et al 2004; Wyżnikiewicz-Kopp, 1977;Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
There is a large amount of propositional information the players must apply to the scene to appropriately “take in” the situation. Some players are better at recognizing situations than others. Thus, players with similar physical abilities do not always respond in physically or behaviourally similar ways to similar situations, because their cognitive abilities and responses are different (Huciński et al, 2007; Horgan and Tienson, 1992).
In view of the diversity and variability of motor stimuli, basketball demands particular cognitive abilities to be able to adjust one’s internal states to diverse situations, or to think tactically (Huciński et al, 2007).
Besides decision making and perceptual skills there are also the basic properties that structure the game. For example, who is in the game? Of those in the game, who is a teammate and who is an opponent? This information is not literally contained in a perceptual or image-like representation of the situation. There are also more global properties of the game, such as the score, the time left on the time clock, the time left in the game, the coach's game plan and/or latest instructions, and what defense the opposition is playing. Second, there are specific properties of individual players: height, jumping ability, speed, shooting ability, and so forth. Third, there are more transient properties: who is guarding whom, what position each player is playing, who is having a good game and who isn't, who is shooting well, who is in foul trouble, etc. So sports which blacks dominate takes extreme amounts of cognitive abilities.
First of all, that part about sports requiring a large amount of cognitive ability is your opinion and that of the author of this article on Africa Resource. And secondly as far as the studies are concerned, I agree with them wholeheartedly. If you read this thread you would realize that I also expressed the view that blacks may have a genetic predisposition to excel in athletics. But a distinction must be made - the cognitive skills needed to dribble a ball, are not the same as the executive cognitive faculties needed to comprehend quantum thermodynamics; they are not the same as those required to understand the principles underlying game theory, or to understand numerical and symbolic computation, etc. - many of which are needed to be a productive member of the modern day capitalist world. Many of this was addressed in the study I posted above entitled "Why g matters."
quote:What do you have to say Fawwass?
How so very mature of you. Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:We also need to have Black Supremacist psychologists write books opposite of Race, Evolution, and Behavior.
By this statement I am guessing that you are implying that all the researchers that I cited are somehow "white supremacist." Produce evidence that all of these people are "white supremacist":
quote:Imhotep a black man produced medical scripts predating Hippocrates existence.
Here are two forums frequented by actual egyptologists: Egyptologists' Electronic Forum In The Hall of Maat That first forum is private, so you first need to email the forum moderator to request access. Ask the actual experts on those forums if Imhotep was a black african, and see what they tell you.
quote:Whites people also teach they invented the Pythagoras theorem when it was used in Egypt FIRST!
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
That Africa Resource article shows that African Immigrants are more educated(as in have more degrees) than Asians yes, however it does not prove that Africans are more intelligent(as measured through IQ or "g") than Asians. As far as the GCSE results, I have already beaten that to death: the immigrant groups each represent a distinct cognitive elite. The results that you posted above shows THE AVERAGE for each group. The United Kingdom is a very homogeneous country; there are almost no minorities outside of the industrial centers of London, Manchester and Leeds. Comparing the large white population(92%) against the much smaller immigrant populations and trying to extrapolate and say that this proves that blacks are more intelligent than whites is statistically inaccurate.
I won't bother to comment on Botswana because I think Bogle has done an adequate job on that already.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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First of all this has absolutely nothing to do with “crying a river” because you asked why Jewish Americans outperformed African-Americans. I am fully aware that all groups of people have been enslaved but disregarding the slavery that is taking place in select regions of Africa our enslavement happened most recently. Also none-blacks being lynched was a minority and doesn’t have much to do with anything. Blacks were denied RIGHTS and current whites indirectly benefited from slavery by having less competition for schools, admissions, jobs, and government programs. Sure there have been some programs set up to reconcile this discrimination but they haven’t been in effect for to long. The Asian exclusion act prevented Asians from entering America. That’s all! That’s not a law that will affect you for generations to come. And Japanese building the railroads does not even begin to compare with the horrible conditions blacks went through. Jews had to deal with 2000 years of anti-Semitism and the holocaust but guess what? They get over billions of dollars a year because of it which has aided in there progression. The Irish, Germans, Jews, Italians, Spaniards, Hispanics, Slavs, and Greeks never faced the kind of discrimination blacks faced. Don’t even try to make the comparison.
Posts: 27 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Why you guys even bother to address the idiot Kemp in matters as mundane as this is beyone me!
All the idiot has is his stupid Bell Curve studies which were DEBUNKED long time ago!!
First of all I am not "Kemp," and despite what many of you may believe, I am not a racist either. And secondly if you actually took the time to read through all of those studies that I posted above in bold, you would notice that absolutely none of them came from "The Bell Curve." Now I have read through many of those articles in that link you have provided and many of them are claiming that IQ is environmental and not genetic: This is not in keeping with the most recent scientific research(discovered in March of this year)!
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:By this statement I am guessing that you are implying that all the researchers that I cited are somehow "white supremacist." Produce evidence that all of these people are "white supremacist":
quote: Here are two forums frequented by actual egyptologists: Egyptologists' Electronic Forum In The Hall of Maat That first forum is private, so you first need to email the forum moderator to request access. Ask the actual experts on those forums if Imhotep was a black african, and see what they tell you.
So since your internet buddies think Egypt wasen't black it wasen't? Yawn!
German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens: "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin." (Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13)
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
quote: There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem; See: The Pythagorean theorem: a 4,000-year history by Eli Maor See Also: The Myth of Egyptian Pi Irrational Numbers and Pyramids
Your correct they were not the first to discover the Pythagorean theorem but there is evidence they introduced it to the Greeks.
quote: have highlighted some of the most recent scientific studies that completely knock down that position, and still you persist in expressing this antiquated view. So I will post them again:
Intelligence tests predict school performance fairly well, at least in American schools as they are now constituted. Similarly, achievement tests are fairly good predictors of performance in college and postgraduate settings.--Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns Report of a Task Force established by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association Released August 7, 1995 LINK
Note that the general intelligence factor or 'g' is strongly predictive of academic performance. See the recent paper headed by Ian Deary: "Deary took the analysis a step further however and did a little latent variable modeling. As the IQ test had three components/subtests (verbal, nonverbal, quantitative), he correlated a latent g factor with a latent academic factor using the following subtests: English, English Literature, Math, Science, Geography, French (n=12519). The correlation between the latent factors was .81. That is: 66% of the variance in latent (general) academic achievement can be explained by latent cognitive ability---measured 5 years previously. Take home message: While general cognitive ability and academic achievement are not isomorphic, the former is necessary for the latter, while the converse is not necessarily true. Spearman suggested this more than a century ago, and, to quote the last sentence in Deary's work, These data establish the validity of g for this important life outcome. Ian J. Deary, Steve Strand, Pauline Smith and Cres Fernandes: Intelligence and educational achievement LINK (Actual Study) LINK (Commentary)
IQ test do not measure musical, creativity, artistic abilities and other areas blacks excel in. As far as intelligence tests predicting school performance fairly well you have some explaining to do.
Why are blacks outpreforming whites in school performance?
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
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ChairmanofBA, as far as I am concerned you really shouldn't be discussing this issue of blacks and intelligence; because you really do not help the case for many intelligent-minded blacks.
quote:I never said they were white supremacist.
I never said that you said that they were white supremacist, I merely articulated that you were implying that they were with your snide remark that blacks should have their own black supremacist psychologists publish "pseudo-science" to refute Jensen and his ilk.
quote:So since your internet buddies think Egypt wasen't black it wasen't? Yawn!
Those people are not my "internet buddies." They are actual egyptologists and anthropologists who have actually practiced their professions for years, and are far more well versed on the issue than all of the "experts" on this forum combined.
quote:Your correct they were not the first to discover the Pythagorean theorem but there is evidence they introduced it to the Greeks.
There is no credible evidence to support the notion that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem, let alone introduced it to the Greeks. I have given you three links done by actual professionals that supports this. That link that you provided that incidentally "proves" that they influenced the Greeks is unsourced. On the other hand, all of the links that I provided you are - for every point made, there is an actual citation verifying that point.
quote:IQ test do not measure musical, creativity, artistic abilities and other areas blacks excel in. As far as intelligence tests predicting school performance fairly well you have some explaining to do.
Why are blacks outpreforming whites in school performance?
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
If you carefully read through each of my most recent posts, in contiguous order, you will see that I have addressed all of this.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:That Africa Resource article shows that African Immigrants are more educated(as in have more degrees) than Asians yes, however it does not prove that Africans are more intelligent(as measured through IQ or "g") than Asians.
This is just further evidence that IQ tests do not measure intelligence. Obtaining a degree takes a considerable amount of intelligence yet Black Africans outperform Asians. What could this possibly mean?
How can Blacks outperform Asians and whites academically yet have lower intelligence? Does obtaining a degree not take intelligence?
1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
quote: As far as the GCSE results, I have already beaten that to death: the immigrant groups each represent a distinct cognitive elite. The results that you posted above shows THE AVERAGE for each group.
Just like IQ statistics show THE AVERAGE for each groups. On average Indians, Black Africans, and Caribbeans are outperforming white Britons. Fact!
quote: The United Kingdom is a very homogeneous country; there are almost no minorities outside of the industrial centers of London, Manchester and Leeds. Comparing the large white population(92%) against the much smaller immigrant populations and trying to extrapolate and say that this proves that blacks are more intelligent than whites is statistically inaccurate.
The dominate class should be outperforming the minorities academically according to this study.
According to you high intelligence correlates with high academic performance and not the other way around. Yet Black Immigrants are outperforming the dominate group despite the disadvantage.
quote: ChairmanofBA, as far as I am concerned you really shouldn't be discussing this issue of blacks and intelligence; because you really do not help the case for many intelligent-minded blacks.
I will take your advice not for your retarded reasons though.
quote: Those people are not my "internet buddies." They are actual egyptologists and anthropologists who have actually practiced their professions for years, and are far more well versed on the issue than all of the "experts" on this forum combined.
Show me the field of their work! Here is what prominent anthropologists had to say
German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens: "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin." (Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13)
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
The following quotes are primary sources.
"Ethiopians say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony...And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian..." (Diodorus Siculus, Book III. 2. 4-3. 3)
"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations..." (Aristotle, _Problemata_ 909, 7)
"Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two." (?) (Aristotle, _Physiognomy_, 6)
So primary sources are wrong but your friends over at those other forums are correct:?
quote: There is no credible evidence to support the notion that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean TheoremI have given you three links done by actual professionals that supports this. That link that you provided that incidentally "proves" that they influenced the Greeks is unsourced. On the other hand, all of the links that I provided you are - for every point made, there is an actual citation verifying that point.
,
I reviewed your sources and it turns out your correct. Egypt did however contribute so much to the world in other ways. Like Imhotep who is the real father of medicine.
quote:
If you carefully read through each of my most recent posts, in contiguous order, you will see that I have addressed all of this.
The dominate class should be outperforming the minorities academically according to this study.
According to you high intelligence correlates with high academic performance and not the other way around. Yet Black Immigrants are outperforming the dominate group despite the disadvantage.
Anyways I am out of here reading all of this pseudo scientific nonsense while trying to complete a thesis statement so I finish off my sophomore year of high-school just isn't healthy on my intellectual endeavors..... Don't take this as me waving the white flag either I just don't want to take part in this debate because its just not healthy.
I enjoyed the debate and the learning process though
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That dim-witted jungle monkey ChairmanofBA gave up on proving white and black equality. Thanks to you Fawass he now believes Aryans are the true master race. ChairmanofBA you should drop out of school while you’re on top only 30% of African Americans receive a diploma anyways.
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quote:This is just further evidence that IQ tests do not measure intelligence. Obtaining a degree takes a considerable amount of intelligence yet Black Africans outperform Asians. What could this possibly mean?
How can Blacks outperform Asians and whites academically yet have lower intelligence? Does obtaining a degree not take intelligence?
Nowhere did I ever state that earning a degree does not require intelligence. The link that you posted to the article from Africa Resource merely states that Black African immigrants earn more degrees as opposed to other groups. As I already pointed out, this does not prove that Black Africans are more intelligent than other groups: earning a degree in art history, is not the same as earning one in theoretical physics; likewise, earning an associates degree is not the same as earning a PHD. As far as the issue of the whether or not IQ is an accurate measure of intelligence, and whether or not it has a genetic basis, I have already articulated that on the second page of this thread (all those studies I posted in bold) and via this link here highlighting the results of the most recent scientific research.
quote:Just like IQ statistics show THE AVERAGE for each groups. On average Indians, Black Africans, and Caribbeans are outperforming white Britons. Fact!
Again, as I already pointed out, the groups you are referring to comprise a very small portion of the British population; and they also represent a "cognitive elite." It is therefore statistically inaccurate to extrapolate from these minute segments of the British population and deduce that they are somehow more intelligent than the British cognitive elite.
quote:The dominate class should be outperforming the minorities academically according to this study.
According to you high intelligence correlates with high academic performance and not the other way around. Yet Black Immigrants are outperforming the dominate group despite the disadvantage.
That’s telling………………
You have obviously not read your own source. According to your link the subordinate classes in Britain are the Irish and Scots, not Black Africans. I have already addressed John Ogbu and his "caste-like" minority hypothesis, its late and right now I'm really tired. I may expand on this later today.
quote:Show me the field of their work! Here is what prominent anthropologists had to say
German Institute for Archaeology -excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. In several of the noble specimens: "The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin." (Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues", Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13)
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the "super-Negroid" body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.
"..After studying all the data, particularly after analyzing the computerized ethcings, one can certainly see that the royal mummies displayed high frequencies of African traits shared with most Africans. Thus, the royal mummies display a strong southern affinity just like other ancient Egyptians of all classes studied by Cheikh Anta Diop, Larry Angel and Shomarqa Keita." James Harris and Edward Wente, X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980)
The following quotes are primary sources.
"Ethiopians say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony...And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian..." (Diodorus Siculus, Book III. 2. 4-3. 3)
"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations..." (Aristotle, _Problemata_ 909, 7)
"Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two." (?) (Aristotle, _Physiognomy_, 6)
So primary sources are wrong but your friends over at those other forums are correct:?
I'm not getting into the entire issue regarding the race of the Ancient Egyptians for two reasons: 1) That isn't what this thread is about. 2) You obviously seem very emotionally invested in the Egyptians being Black Africans, so I really don't want to disappoint you.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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fawal quote: I'm not getting into the entire issue regarding the race of the Ancient Egyptians for two reasons: 1) That isn't what this thread is about. 2) You obviously seem very emotionally invested in the Egyptians being Black Africans, so I really don't want to disappoint you.
Hey fawal, nice touch; dismissively condescending without being overtly contradictory or argumentative; you must be an old hand at this.
But you are an intelligent (I am sure) human being, so I am interested in your true and innermost thoughts regarding this matter. So lets set the parameters and see where it goes.
The prevailing opinion here, is that the Egyptians were Africans (Black people), living in Africa, and living a fundamentally African existence in culture and technology.
This opinion is based on uninterrupted archeological data, which traces them moving up through Sudan from central Africa; and artifacts like statues and paintings (which they made themselves), and in which they clearly depicted themselves as Black people.
This evidence seems incontrovertible to people of good faith and science, but you seem to have a contrary opinion, so would you please share it, and the evidence that you have to support your contrary position.
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quote:Originally posted by fawal: There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
There is no evidence there was even a Pythagoras. Your own source says everything you read about him must be taken with a grain of salt. So how do we attribute discoveries to someone your "experts" aren't even sure existed? And your sources cant agree among themselves about whether the Egyptians even knew of the 3:4:5 right-angled triangle. Robins and Shute do not agree with your other sources.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
Must not be aware of the so-called "Moscow" papyrus. And oh yeah, the great pyramids were built with obvious care to dimensions without any mathematical insight; makes perfect sense.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Explorer - I wasn't aware that a public institution had verified the Egyptians contributions to science and technology. That certainly puts a damper on the White Greek bullsh1t. Thanks for the post.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
Must not be aware of the so-called "Moscow" papyrus. And oh yeah, the great pyramids were built with obvious care to dimensions without any mathematical insight; makes perfect sense.
Perhaps he has it they probably borrowed that information from Jewish Caucasian Greek slave pyramid-builders.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: fawal, fawal - Has anybody seen fawal?
He was here just a while ago, but now he seems to have disappeared. I wonder what happened.
I haven't gone anywhere Mike111; unlike many of the simpletons here, I actually have far more productive things to do with my life than spending 20 hours a day on egyptsearch. Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: fawal quote: I'm not getting into the entire issue regarding the race of the Ancient Egyptians for two reasons: 1) That isn't what this thread is about. 2) You obviously seem very emotionally invested in the Egyptians being Black Africans, so I really don't want to disappoint you.
Hey fawal, nice touch; dismissively condescending without being overtly contradictory or argumentative; you must be an old hand at this.
But you are an intelligent (I am sure) human being, so I am interested in your true and innermost thoughts regarding this matter. So lets set the parameters and see where it goes.
The prevailing opinion here, is that the Egyptians were Africans (Black people), living in Africa, and living a fundamentally African existence in culture and technology.
This opinion is based on uninterrupted archeological data, which traces them moving up through Sudan from central Africa; and artifacts like statues and paintings (which they made themselves), and in which they clearly depicted themselves as Black people.
This evidence seems incontrovertible to people of good faith and science, but you seem to have a contrary opinion, so would you please share it, and the evidence that you have to support your contrary position.
If you all want to debate about the race of the Ancient Egyptians then you can always start a new thread here. But my guess is that none of you will. And do you know why that is? Its because the posters here would only debate like-minded dunderheads on sites like Shifting Sands or Stormfront. None of you here would dare to duke it out and go mono-e-mono against the very same egyptologists that so many of you love to accuse of "Eurocentrism," simply due to the fact that you all subconciously know that you would have all of your arguments easily shot down. Its pathetic really. Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by fawal: There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
There is no evidence there was even a Pythagoras. Your own source says everything you read about him must be taken with a grain of salt. So how do we attribute discoveries to someone your "experts" aren't even sure existed? And your sources cant agree among themselves about whether the Egyptians even knew of the 3:4:5 right-angled triangle. Robins and Shute do not agree with your other sources.
OK, first of all where on earth did you get the fallacious idea that there isn't any evidence that Pythagoras even existed? A cursory search on the internet will yield you a wealth of information regarding Pythagoras' life and work (See here, here, and here). Secondly, whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the 3:4:5 triangle is a matter that is of yet not entirely resolved. I think you are misreading that Robins and Shute article. They are not arguing that the Egyptians did in fact know of this Pythagorean Triple, but rather are showing ways to which they may have derived it. In that article they specifically said:
quote:We do not claim that the Egyptians necessarily did use the method of calculation outlined above, although they could have, but we give it because it can readily yield any Pythagorean triple, and because of the slur, which we think to be unjustified, that the Egyptians were mathematically inept, and hampered by being harnessed to unit fractions. [34] In fact, some of the calculations in the mathematical papyri are quite complex. Moreover, it would be wrong to suppose that what survives in such student manuals represents the sum total of ancient Egyptian mathematical knowledge.
There is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem;
Must not be aware of the so-called "Moscow" papyrus. And oh yeah, the great pyramids were built with obvious care to dimensions without any mathematical insight; makes perfect sense.
The Explorer, I can tell that simple reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong point. You, like ChairmanofBA, really shouldn't be posting in a thread entitled "Blacks and Intelligence." Read your link carefully! There is absolutely nothing in that source dealing with a derivation for the Pythagorean Theorem. When you click on the heading entitled "The Pythagorean Theorem" at the top of that screen, it takes you to Problem 10. That problem has absolutely nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem, triangles, or pyramids but rather shows the derivation for the surface area of a hemisphere. Problem 14 deals with the volume of a frustum. I will repeat again (and hopefully this time it will sink in), there is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever knew of the Pythagorean Theorem. See: Mathimatics in Ancient Egypt Pyramid ConstructionPosts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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fawal - You make such a pathetic supremacist - you source your foolishness to a forum page???
I had hoped to get some enjoyment out of kicking your pale butt around these pages for a while, but you are pure ignorant bullsh1t, incapable of providing anything worthwhile to argue about.
And you don't even comprehend your own quotes.
fawal Quote: - In fact, some of the calculations in the mathematical papyri are quite complex. Moreover, it would be wrong to suppose that what survives in such student manuals represents the sum total of ancient Egyptian mathematical knowledge.
{The repository of Egyptian knowledge - the Alexandria Library - was destroyed by a fire started by Whites in 48 B.C.}
This was of course AFTER Whitie had transcribed all knowledge contained within, and carried it off to their newly conquered lands of Greece and Italy. Them being originally ignorant and illiterate Nomads, they needed to steal everything that they could get their hands on. This, because initially, they didn't know how to make anything that they had taken from the Black Europeans work!
The Berlin Papyrus
The Berlin Papyrus 6619, commonly known as the Berlin Papyrus is an ancient Egyptian papyrus document from the Middle Kingdom. This papyrus was found at the ancient burial ground of Saqqara in the early 19th century CE.
The papyrus is one of the primary sources of ancient Egyptian mathematical and medical knowledge, including the first known documentation concerning pregnancy test procedures, and is thus part of the medical papyri.
The Berlin Papyrus contains a problem stated as "the area of a square of 100 is equal to that of two smaller squares. The side of one is ˝ + Ľ the side of the other." The interest in the question may suggest some knowledge of the Pythagorean theorem, though more likely the data shows a straight forward solution of two second degree variables stated as one unknown, and not two unknowns, as reported by Scott Williams:
"100 square cubits is equal to that of two smaller squares, the side of one square is 1/2 + 1/4 of the other. What are the sides of the two unknown squares.
In modern terms we would express this as x2 + y2 = 100 and x = (3/4)y. What are x and y? A modern solution in this form might be ((3/4)y)2 + y2 = 100 implies (1 + 9/16)y2 = (25/16)y2 = 100 implies y2 =(16/25)100 = 64 implies y=8 and x= (3/4)8 = 6.
However, most translators believe the egyptians viewed this problem the way we do the simultaneous equations
x2 + y2 = 100 4x - 3y = 0 What are x and y?
Here was their solution. Assume the square of the first side (y) to be 1 cubit. Then the other side (x) will be 1/2 + 1/4. Then y2 = 1, and using Egyptian multiplication we determine x2 with 1 1/2 + 1/4 1/2* 1/4 + 1/8 1/4* 1/8 + 1/16 1/2 + 1/4 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/16 = 1/2 + 1/16
So x2 = 1/2 + 1/16. Thus, x2 + y2 = 1 + 1/2 + 1/16. Now (1 + 1/2 + 1/16)1/2 = 1 + 1/4 and (100)1/2 = 10 (we will discuss square roots later). Divide 10 by 1 + 1/4 and you get 8 (see the method of problem 24). So we get y=8. The Berlin Papyrus contains damage here so we can at best assume the solution for x was to divide 8 by 1/2 + 1/4 (as in the method of problem 24) to achieve x=6.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: OK, first of all where on earth did you get the fallacious idea that there isn't any evidence that Pythagoras even existed?
Well that's my conclusion [or Initial reaction] from your own source which says everything you read about him must be taken with a grain of salt... everything. I'm thinking "yeh kinna like Jesus Christ" here. lol
Clearly you were not being honest with your own sources which is why for instance you no longer cite Robins and Shute in your posts about the "Pythagorean Theorem" anymore but source wiki and a chat room instead. LOL.
Personally I think he did exist but like all legends what is attributed to him is perhaps mostly fable. Now I can understand you want to run to other sources after your "actual professionals" undermine you [serve you right for not reading your sources] but everything means everything.
quote: Secondly, whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the 3:4:5 triangle is a matter that is of yet not entirely resolved. I think you are misreading that Robins and Shute article.They are not arguing that the Egyptians did in fact know of this Pythagorean Triple,
I never said they said Egyptinas knew, read slowly, I said your sources don't agree that there is no evidence. Not knowing this you used them to back you your initial claim that there was no evidence Egyptians ever knew of it; but clearly Robins and Shute show that there is some, thus they don't agree with the slur, e.g. van der Waerden cited as evidence by your other source Eli.
Yes one could argue for his existence but it's inferred from available evidence, no matter how slim; Egyptian knowledge of the theorem is also inferred from evidence. Whether or not you choose to believe one line of evidence and not the other depends on your agenda, and we all know yours.
Its the same with the debate over claims of Jewish [and other white peoples] genetic genius and concomitant black inferiority: you choose to believe one side, perhaps misrepresenting your own sources here too, as clearly, you are not in a habit of reading them.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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The Explorer, I can tell that simple reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong point. You, like ChairmanofBA, really shouldn't be posting in a thread entitled "Blacks and Intelligence." Read your link carefully! There is absolutely nothing in that source dealing with a derivation for the Pythagorean Theorem. When you click on the heading entitled "The Pythagorean Theorem" at the top of that screen, it takes you to Problem 10. That problem has absolutely nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem, triangles, or pyramids but rather shows the derivation for the surface area of a hemisphere. Problem 14 deals with the volume of a frustum. I will repeat again (and hopefully this time it will sink in), there is absolutely no evidence to support the notion that the Ancient Egyptians ever knew of the Pythagorean Theorem. See: Mathimatics in Ancient Egypt Pyramid Construction
It isn't exactly a mystery that acting human is definitely not your strong suit. You could not have possibly come out of a household with a father figure, or one under the care of a human being. Do you approach every person you immediately get into contact with, with savagery? What are you fed, man; raw human meat?
Of course, the point of the link was to show that, contrary to your belief system, there is actual primary material that bespeaks the alertness of ancient Egyptians of the principle of what would eventually become the so-called Pythagorean. The site, which clearly notifies that it is 'under construction', cites *specific* primary material to this end, and it thereafter falls upon you, to simply look up the said references. Apparently, this 'evident' self-responsibility was not all too evident to you, complaining about it not going as far as spoon feeding you through the actual equations as an excuse to dismiss the evidence; fair enough then, as what follows here now, both sources that are open-minded about ancient Egyptian alertness to the so-called Pythagorean principle and those that are close-minded about it, simply reinforce what that site was linked for:
Lumpkin, Beatrice. Note: the Egyptians and Pythagorean triples. Historia Math. 7 (1980), no. 2, 186--187. SC: 01A15, MR: 81c:01004.
The author notes that some ancient Egyptian problems suggest a knowledge of certain Pythagorean triangles. For example, in the Berlin Papyrus there are problems where a given square is to be written as the sum of two squares in a given ratio. The solutions involve the fact that 62+82=102 and 122+162=202; these facts are familiar to us from our knowledge of the (3,4,5) right triangle. She also notes that the Egyptian units of measurement suggest a knowledge of the Pythagorean theorem in the special case of an isosceles right triangle. "The double remen is the diagonal of a square whose side was one cubit. By changing the units of measurement from cubits to double remens, the area of a figure would be doubled." - courtesy of http://mtcs.truman.edu/~thammond/history/PythagoreanTriangles.html
History of mathematics
The area of study known as the history of mathematics is primarily an investigation into the origin of new discoveries in mathematics and, to a lesser extent, an investigation into the standard mathematical methods and notation of the past.
Before the modern age and the worldwide spread of knowledge, written examples of new mathematical developments have come to light only in a few locales. The most ancient mathematical texts available are Plimpton 322 (Babylonian mathematics ca. 1900 BC), the Moscow Mathematical Papyrus (Egyptian mathematics ca. 1850 BC), the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus (Egyptian mathematics ca. 1650 BC), and the Shulba Sutras (Indian mathematics ca. 800 BC). All of these texts concern the so-called Pythagorean theorem, which seems to be the most ancient and widespread mathematical development after basic arithmetic and geometry. - courtesy of http://www.iwymicsa.co.za/?page=home
Even this unapologetically Eurocentric author could not help it, but at least note,...
Proof based mathematics are unquestionable.Non proof based mathematics are arguable as the mathematical problems are supported by suspicion rather than reason. If no good explanation is given then the problem cannot be credible. For example, the Pythagorean Theorem is named after the Greek Pythagoras since he proved it. This theorem was used way before by the Babylonians, the Egyptians and even the Chinese. The Cairo Mathematical papyrus, an Egyptian papyrus dating from about 300 B.C, contains forty problems; nine of them deal exclusively with the Pythagorean Theorem. The papyrus show that Egyptians not only knew that 3, 4, 5 triangle is right angled, but that 5, 12, 13 and 20, 21, 29 were right angles as well. The 3, 4, 5 triangle as a right triangle also appears in the Chớu-peď, the oldest know Chinese mathematical work, which may date back to the second millennium B.C.(Eves 65) Unfortunately, these old civilizations used suspicion and intuition instead of reason, therefore understanding was not reliable. - Prof Roypal, link: http://faculty.csuci.edu/roger.roybal/teaching/spring09/math331/project1/P1_459.pdf
Now of course, the fellow feels that since in areas like Egypt, where fragile medium has rendered survival of much of the primary academia material relatively scarce, that this must surely be indicative of what amounts to the said ancients' heavy reliance on untested "superstitious" belief apparatus that were put into undertaking practical particulars of life, like say, pyramid designing and construction thereof. It's not even as much that the ancient Egyptians didn't jot down the principles behind analytical concepts; rather, its just that we haven't been for fortunate enough to uncover a great deal of it; that's what it is. However, as several observers have noted time and again, one senses from the meager document collection that is available, that ancient Egyptian intuition into Pythagorean principle is any but mere suspicion; this link seems to follow that theme: http://www.math.washington.edu/~greenber/PiPyr.html
It notes, for example...
There is also a frequently mentioned relationship between the Great Pyramid and the number φ, which I will now discuss. The legend that the architect who designed the Great Pyramid of Khufu intentionally incorporated the Golden Mean (which is this number φ) into the proportions of that structure seems to have its roots in a misunderstanding or distortion of the writings of Herodotus. The story goes as follows: Herodotus learned from Egyptian priests that the Great Pyramid was built so that the square whose side is the height of the Great Pyramid will have an area equal to that of each of the Pyramid's faces. Based on this statement, it is not difficult to derive the famous relationship between the Great Pyramid and the number φ. The derivation makes use of the Pythagorean theorem and is described here.
This serves as one amongst others, to reiterate the point that the Great pyramid dimensions are telltale signs that these constructions were not undertaken via some mindless brainstorming sessions involving superstitious guidance concept of hit-and-miss approach to getting a workable or the designed goal, but actually via well-thought out and thought through quantitative analytical concepts.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ In the way of the ongoing theme, another source says...
One theory about the construction of the pyramids involves the use of special right triangles. The Egyptians may have used (wooden?) right triangles during the construction process to help determine the slope of the pyramid...
Pyramids and Mathematical Papyri
Problems 56 - 59 of the Rhind Mathematical Papyrus compute the seqed of a triangle. The seqed is related to the slope of the side of the pyramid. If we look at a triangular cross section, then the seqed is defined to be (1/2 base of the pyramid) / height.
It site reiterates the often observed aspect of the great pyramids, in that their designs involved calculation...a mathematical one, not superstitious; for more, see: http://math.slu.edu/escher/index.php/The_Pyramids
As for Pythagoras himself, while in the process reiterating what has already been noted, perhaps, one site put it nicely in a bundle:...
The Pythagorean Theorem is one of Euclidean Geometry's most beautiful theorems. It is simple, yet obscure, and is used continuously in mathematics and physics. In short, it is really cool.
Evidence of the theorem can be traced far back into Egyptian history with the help of the Rhind Papyrus(1788-1580 BC). The Rhind Papyrus itself claims to be a copy of an earlier work, possibly dating as far back as 2000 BC. The use of the 3-4-5 triangles(9+16=25) to construct perfect right angles, indeed seems to have been a very common practice, long ago. Unfortunately, little information predates the Greeks, so this will probably remain another mystery of the Egyptians. Traditionally, however, the theorem has been credited [in western culture] to Pythagoras of Samos. The legend has it that he was so excited by its proof that he sacrificed a bull for the occasion, even though Pythagoreans were against animal sacrifice. Unfortunately, there are only legends. The Pythagorean School, which gets its name from its founder, was a secret cult. They regarded their knowledge as something to be kept from all outsiders. Thus, they did not write things down until the cult began to lose prominence several generations later, leaving posterity with a void where the life of Pythagoras should have been. Consequently, classicists do not know if Pythagoras was actually responsible for the first proof.
How does one prove this enigma? The geometry books I have had experience with turned this rose into a briar. Unfortunately, nobody knows how "Pythagoras" originally proved the theorem, but here are three ways.
This first method is one of the ways the Pythagoreans would have proved the theorem. Unfortunately, it lacks glamour. In the following picture let ABC be a right triangle and BD be a segment drawn perpendicular to AC.
Since the triangles are similar, the sides must be of proportional lengths.
AB/AD=AC/AB, or AB x AB = AD x AC BC/CD=AC/BC, or BC x BC= AC x CD
Then, adding the two together, BC^2 + AB^2 = (AD + DC) x AC= AC^2
Guess who else made it a point to hide academic "body of knowledge" from the world outside of the circles of religious neophytes and authorities? Yeap, the ancient Egyptian scribes. Indeed, "pyramids" were not a Greek "thing" to begin with, whereas it was, with regards to Kemet. And so, it is no mystery that whatever Pythagoras and co. acquired about triangles and pyramids, comes from what they learned from the Egyptians while in ancient Egypt; no genius is required to put the two together...
Pythagoras probably also absorbed much knowledge from his travels through the ancient world, particularly Egypt and Persia. What is certainly known is that he founded the Pythagorean School in the outskirts of the Greek empire, on the southeast coast of modern Italy. - courtesy of Daniel Vikum, cs.middlebury.edu
On that note, you'll hopefully be more human-like, if or when you address me in your next reply; and I'd like to point out that those links of your's are just worthless. That link on the pyramids for instance, contains some pointless rambling by a self-admitted clueless character on the subject matter, on how the pyramids might have been built, and nothing relevant on the underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions whatsoever, which is what I alluded to. So, guess whose been struggling with his/her reading comprehension after all?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:fawal - You make such a pathetic supremacist - you source your foolishness to a forum page???
I had hoped to get some enjoyment out of kicking your pale butt around these pages for a while, but you are pure ignorant bullsh1t, incapable of providing anything worthwhile to argue about.
Typical really. Its exactly as I thought. You all would never step outside your comfort zones and actually debate all of the "issues" that are frequently raised on this forum in an actual scholarly setting. Also, if you don't mind me asking, just what exactly are the qualifications of the posters on this board? Do any of you actually have any formal training in the areas that so many of you love to pontificate? Are there any actual egyptologists here? How about archeologists? Anthropologists perhaps? Or, is it as I suspect, that the very few of you who actually have a degree have it in such "disciplines" as "Africana" or "Black Studies."
Kicking my butt? Don't make me laugh! What I find quite odd, is the fact that so many of you are so eager to deflect away from the initial topic of this thread of "Blacks and Intelligence." Am I then to assume that you all have decided to throw in the towel as far as that topic is concerned? If so, then just who exactly is kicking whose butt?
quote: And you don't even comprehend your own quotes.
fawal Quote: - In fact, some of the calculations in the mathematical papyri are quite complex. Moreover, it would be wrong to suppose that what survives in such student manuals represents the sum total of ancient Egyptian mathematical knowledge.
quote: The Berlin Papyrus
The Berlin Papyrus 6619, commonly known as the Berlin Papyrus is an ancient Egyptian papyrus document from the Middle Kingdom. This papyrus was found at the ancient burial ground of Saqqara in the early 19th century CE.
The papyrus is one of the primary sources of ancient Egyptian mathematical and medical knowledge, including the first known documentation concerning pregnancy test procedures, and is thus part of the medical papyri.
The Berlin Papyrus contains a problem stated as "the area of a square of 100 is equal to that of two smaller squares. The side of one is ˝ + Ľ the side of the other." The interest in the question may suggest some knowledge of the Pythagorean theorem, though more likely the data shows a straight forward solution of two second degree variables stated as one unknown, and not two unknowns, as reported by Scott Williams: "100 square cubits is equal to that of two smaller squares, the side of one square is 1/2 + 1/4 of the other. What are the sides of the two unknown squares.
In modern terms we would express this as x2 + y2 = 100 and x = (3/4)y. What are x and y? A modern solution in this form might be ((3/4)y)2 + y2 = 100 implies (1 + 9/16)y2 = (25/16)y2 = 100 implies y2 =(16/25)100 = 64 implies y=8 and x= (3/4)8 = 6.
However, most translators believe the egyptians viewed this problem the way we do the simultaneous equations
x2 + y2 = 100 4x - 3y = 0 What are x and y?
Here was their solution. Assume the square of the first side (y) to be 1 cubit. Then the other side (x) will be 1/2 + 1/4. Then y2 = 1, and using Egyptian multiplication we determine x2 with 1 1/2 + 1/4 1/2* 1/4 + 1/8 1/4* 1/8 + 1/16 1/2 + 1/4 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/16 = 1/2 + 1/16
So x2 = 1/2 + 1/16. Thus, x2 + y2 = 1 + 1/2 + 1/16. Now (1 + 1/2 + 1/16)1/2 = 1 + 1/4 and (100)1/2 = 10 (we will discuss square roots later). Divide 10 by 1 + 1/4 and you get 8 (see the method of problem 24). So we get y=8. The Berlin Papyrus contains damage here so we can at best assume the solution for x was to divide 8 by 1/2 + 1/4 (as in the method of problem 24) to achieve x=6.
OH MY GOD!!! This is just characteristic of the blatant distortions and downright spin tactics that have made Afrocentrists so infamous in contemporary Western Academy! Nowhere in those two quotes does it state (or imply for that matter) that the Egyptians discovered the Pythagorean Theorem! Robins and Shute specifically said that they do not claim that the Egyptians used the possible methods of calculation that they outlined (they did point out the fact that some of the calculations in Egyptian papyri are quite complex, however at present there is NO EVIDENCE to substantiate the claim that they knew it). That article that you copied and pasted out of wikipedia says that it may suggest some knowledge of the Pythagorean Theorem, though more likely the data shows a straight forward solution of two second degree variables stated as one unknown, and not two unknowns. To me Afrocentrists are like young-earth creationists: your beliefs are neither based on facts nor sound scholarship, but rather myths and fantasies - if it could be true, then it must be true.
quote: {The repository of Egyptian knowledge - the Alexandria Library - was destroyed by a fire started by Whites in 48 B.C.}
This was of course AFTER Whitie had transcribed all knowledge contained within, and carried it off to their newly conquered lands of Greece and Italy. Them being originally ignorant and illiterate Nomads, they needed to steal everything that they could get their hands on. This, because initially, they didn't know how to make anything that they had taken from the Black Europeans work!
quote:Clearly you were not being honest with your own sources which is why for instance you no longer cite Robins and Shute in your posts about the "Pythagorean Theorem" anymore but source wiki and a chat room instead. LOL.
Personally I think he did exist but like all legends what is attributed to him is perhaps mostly fable. Now I can understand you want to run to other sources after your "actual professionals" undermine you [serve you right for not reading your sources] but everything means everything.
Huh? First of all, in what way exactly did I stop citing Robins and Shute? In what way exactly were they "undermining" my position that the Egyptians did not discover the Pythagorean Theorem? You do realize that that Robins and Shute article that I linked to deals primarily with whether the irrational numbers Pi and Phi were employed in pyramid design and concludes that they weren't, right (they only touched briefly on Pythagorean Triples)? My main source for the statement that there is no evidence to substantiate the idea that the Egyptians ever discovered the Pythagorean Theorem was Eli Maor's book "The Pythagorean Theorem: A 4000 Year History." The two other links that I provided were "The Myth of Egyptian Pi" and "Irrational Numbers and Pyramids." I provided that first link of the two for the purpose of dispelling the myth that the Greeks "stole" their mathematical knowledge from the Egyptians, and the second one I provided because it dealt tacitly with the issue of the Egyptians and the Pythagorean Theorem. That is why I told you that you were obviously not reading that Robins and Shute article properly. Secondly, I linked to wikipedia in response to your completely false claim that there was no evidence that Pythagoras even existed - it had absolutely nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem. If you look carefully, you will see that that "chat room" that I linked to comes off the exact same site as the Robins and Shute article - that particular thread deals with this article which made similar exagerated claims as far as Egyptian mathematics was concerned. And finally just what other sources did I run to exactly?
quote:I never said they said Egyptinas knew, read slowly, I said your sources don't agree that there is no evidence. Not knowing this you used them to back you your initial claim that there was no evidence Egyptians ever knew of it; but clearly Robins and Shute show that there is some, thus they don't agree with the slur, e.g. van der Waerden cited as evidence by your other source Eli.
Yes one could argue for his existence but it's inferred from available evidence, no matter how slim; Egyptian knowledge of the theorem is also inferred from evidence. Whether or not you choose to believe one line of evidence and not the other depends on your agenda, and we all know yours.
Bogle, there is absolutely no evidence that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem - you will see this in my response to The Explorer below. And absolutely none of those sources that I provided contradict me. Furthermore I have no "agenda."
quote: Its the same with the debate over claims of Jewish [and other white peoples] genetic genius and concomitant black inferiority: you choose to believe one side, perhaps misrepresenting your own sources here too, as clearly, you are not in a habit of reading them.
I have not misrepresented any of my sources; the links to all the studies are there, feel free to show me however I may have erred. And secondly I don't have to prove "black inferiority" - you all prove that to the entire world everyday of your pitiful lives. Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:It isn't exactly a mystery that acting human is definitely not your strong suit. You could not have possibly come out of a household with a father figure, or one under the care of a human being. Do you approach every person you immediately get into contact with, with savagery? What are you fed, man; raw human meat?
quote:Of course, the point of the link was to show that, contrary to your belief system, there is actual primary material that bespeaks the alertness of ancient Egyptians of the principle of what would eventually become the so-called Pythagorean. The site, which clearly notifies that it is 'under construction', cites *specific* primary material to this end, and it thereafter falls upon you, to simply look up the said references. Apparently, this 'evident' self-responsibility was not all too evident to you, complaining about it not going as far as spoon feeding you through the actual equations as an excuse to dismiss the evidence; fair enough then, as what follows here now, both sources that are open-minded about ancient Egyptian alertness to the so-called Pythagorean principle and those that are close-minded about it, simply reinforce what that site was linked for
OH PLEASE!!! This has absolutely nothing to do with "spoon feeding," there was absolutely nothing on that site dealing with the Pythagorean Theorem. I saw no primary material or reference sources dealing with the theorem either (and I searched the entire site). If you knew that that site was under construction, then why did you link to it in the first place? Moreover, why did you draw reference to the Moscow Papyrus when that document has nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem?
OK, first of all I think you are mistaking a Pythagorean Triple for the actual Theorem itself. The Pythagorean Theorem is the relationship x^2=y^2+z^2. Many modern day egyptologists believe that the Egyptians may have had knowledge of Pythagorean Triples, however currently there is NO EVIDENCE that they ever derived the actual formula relating the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle to its side opposite and side adjacent. It is known that the Babylonians did, and that the Chinese did, because unlike the Egyptians who wrote on papyrus, they wrote their proofs of the theorem in stone. Many of the quotes that you provided me did not come from actual egyptologists, but rather most of them came from math departments, and many of your links are also unsourced. That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists. This book therefore represents the most recent consensus regarding whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the theorem. I would strongly recommend that you read that chapter again(scroll down to page 14 of that pdf file). Also here is the contact information for some actual egyptologists at The Chicago Orientalist Institute who will confirm for you everything that I have just posted:
I would also recommend that you view this site which shows all the known derivations of the Pythagorean Theorem in human history. None of them come from Ancient Egypt.
quote:That link on the pyramids for instance, contains some pointless rambling by a self-admitted clueless character on the subject matter, on how the pyramids might have been built, and nothing relevant on the underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions whatsoever, which is what I alluded to.
I did not link to that particular thread to show any underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions, on the contrary, I linked to that thread to show that pyramid design did not need any complex mathematical knowledge on the part of the Egyptians at all.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
The Explorer wrote: ------------------------------------- It isn't exactly a mystery that acting human is definitely not your strong suit. You could not have possibly come out of a household with a father figure, or one under the care of a human being. Do you approach every person you immediately get into contact with, with savagery? What are you fed, man; raw human meat? -------------------------------------
Folks if this isn't proof that "The Explorer" is a fruitcake I don't know what is.
"The Explorer" has posted some of the most deranged psychotic racist eurocentric things about Africans. Things that you don't even see at white supremacist sites.
Explorer do you want me to post links?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
The Explorer wrote: -------------------------------- On that note, you'll hopefully be more human-like, if or when you address me in your next reply; --------------------------------
Do you want your anti-African rantings and ravings linked?
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The Explorer, I think that instead of worrying about my domestic upbringing, you should instead worry about that of black american children
You are very slow, kid: it is not so much as being worried, as it is about bluntly stating the obvious.
quote:
This has absolutely nothing to do with "spoon feeding," there was absolutely nothing on that site dealing with the Pythagorean Theorem.
Of course, there is: it is an educational institution link referencing the *primary sources* in which it is implicated. You are simply too dense to grasp the significance of this, which as I've amply demonstrated, is nonetheless reaffirmed by both 'open-minded' and close-minded sources on the net, in academia links.
quote:
If you knew that that site was under construction, then why did you link to it in the first place?
Read above and learn, kid.
quote: Moreover, why did you draw reference to the Moscow Papyrus when that document has nothing to do with the Pythagorean Theorem?
I referenced it for the same reason one of my earlier sources referenced it. Hint: truncated pyramid of say, problem 14. You take it from there.
quote:
OK, first of all I think you are mistaking a Pythagorean Triple for the actual Theorem itself. The Pythagorean Theorem is the relationship x^2=y^2+z^2.
Moron, if the Pythagorean triple doesn't relate to the formula you just jotted down, then what does it relate to?
quote:
Many modern day egyptologists believe that the Egyptians may have had knowledge of Pythagorean Triples, however currently there is NO EVIDENCE that they ever derived the actual formula relating the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle to its side opposite and side adjacent.
Enlighten us. How do you arrive at the principle of certain versions of Pythagorean triples without having an understanding of *a model*, which makes it consistently certain that you'll get the answer to the undetermined dimension?
quote: Many of the quotes that you provided me did not come from actual egyptologists, but rather most of them came from math departments
Well, where else did you expect mathematical discipline to be dealt with, if not *math* departments, by mathematicians or the mathematical experts [like the teachers with PhD in math]? Your numb-minded rationale is akin to saying an Egyptologist, in general, ought to have more authority in a matter relating to genealogy of the ancient Egyptians over actual geneticists, which is quite moronic, to be frank.
quote:
, and many of your links are also unsourced.
For what?
quote: That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists. This book therefore represents the most recent consensus regarding whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the theorem. I would strongly recommend that you read that chapter again(scroll down to page 14 of that pdf file). Also here is the contact information for some actual egyptologists at The Chicago Orientalist Institute who will confirm for you everything that I have just posted:
I would also recommend that you view this site which shows all the known derivations of the Pythagorean Theorem in human history. None of them come from Ancient Egypt.
I strongly recommend you stop recommending matters you have no clue about, and start addressing those you're being educated on.
quote:
I did not link to that particular thread to show any underlying analytical features of the pyramid's dimensions, on the contrary, I linked to that thread to show that pyramid design did not need any complex mathematical knowledge on the part of the Egyptians at all.
Explain how the dimensions of the great pyramids were attained without mathematical knowledge. What do you know about these dimensions, for starters, or are you of the mindset that they don't have any?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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The Explorer wrote: -------------------------------- On that note, you'll hopefully be more human-like, if or when you address me in your next reply; --------------------------------
Do you want your anti-African rantings and ravings linked?
Go f*ck yo mama.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
The Explorer wrote: ---------------------------------- O CrakaCoonBuckwheat ----------------------------------
Folks, notice how he uses racial epithets meant to denigrate Africans.
Why doesn't he do that to Europeans? Or any non-African for that matter?
Explorer, why are you so docile to Euros? Why are you so frightened of them? Why do you hate Africans?
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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^dickhead, I gave you an instruction. Go do it.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by fawal: Huh? First of all, in what way exactly did I stop citing Robins and Shute?
why, by flooding your posts with Wiki and a Chat room to drown out the damaging verdict of your own source, like Eli. Now you are flooding your posts with, oh my god, Lefkowitz, Walker and Howe!?!? Are these "real professionals" too? LOL
Scrambling now to explain why you initially cited Eli et al. doesn't matter as they are already a wealth of evidence regarding your stupidity. One is of the view that everything about Pythagoras is to be taken with a grain of salt. And the other clearly shows the stupidity of the claim that there is absolutely no evidence that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem.
The first shows how pathetic you are for choosing to believe what you read on Wiki (!!!) regarding a particular subject while rejecting evidence about another. You remind me of confused Descartes: doubt everything, expect god (Pythagoras), that cannot be proven with certainty. LOL
quote: Bogle, there is absolutely no evidence that the Egyptians knew of the Pythagorean Theorem
Saying this a thousand times will not help you either. A careful reading of one of your own sources shows that some do not agree with your absolutist position on whether or not the Egyptians knew of the "Pythagorean" Theorem. You do understand I have to put Pythagorean in quotes as I cant be sure of his existence much less attribute certain "discoveries" to him as your own source says everything we read of him is to be taken with a grain of salt. .
quote: And absolutely none of those sources that I provided contradict me.
At this point it is clear you have no idea of the significance of some of your own sources in relation to your absolutist position on whether or not the Egyptians knew of the "Pythagorean" Theorem. You do understand I have to put Pythagorean in quotes as I cant be sure of his existence much less attribute certain "discoveries" to him as your own source says everything we know of him is to be taken with a grain of salt.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:OK, first of all I think you are mistaking a Pythagorean Triple for the actual Theorem itself. The Pythagorean Theorem is the relationship x^2=y^2+z^2.
Moron, if the Pythagorean triple doesn't relate to the formula you just jotted down, then what does it relate to?
LOL
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Many modern day egyptologists believe that the Egyptians may have had knowledge of Pythagorean Triples, however currently there is NO EVIDENCE that they ever derived the actual formula relating the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle to its side opposite and side adjacent.
Enlighten us. How do you arrive at the principle of certain versions of Pythagorean triples without having an understanding of *a model*, which makes it consistently certain that you'll get the answer to the undetermined dimension?
LOL
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Many of the quotes that you provided me did not come from actual egyptologists, but rather most of them came from math departments
Well, where else did you expect mathematical discipline to be dealt with, if not *math* departments, by mathematicians or the mathematical experts [like the teachers with PhD in math]? Your numb-minded rationale is akin to saying an Egyptologist, in general, ought to have more authority in a matter relating to genealogy of the ancient Egyptians over actual geneticists, which is quite moronic, to be frank.
LOL
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: [QUOTE]That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists.
Yep, the same guy that advised you to take with a grain of salt everything you read about your Pythagoras.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by fawal: That book that I cited by Eli Maor was published in late 2007 and he actually draws reference to actual egyptologists. This book therefore represents the most recent consensus regarding whether or not the Egyptians actually knew of the theorem.
LOL what a clown! Go look at his footnotes again, nothing is after the 1970s. He is merely regurgitating old information. And why doesn't your least PDF citation of Eli not include the chapter where he says "But who was this revered person [Pythagoras]? Truth is, we don't know."?
^ Maybe "real professionals" should start consulting Wikipedia on Pythagoras' life and work, yes? LOL
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
^ Bump. I just noticed that as well. You can only expect so much from him.
Fawal
quote:Those people are not my "internet buddies." They are actual egyptologists and anthropologists who have actually practiced their professions for years, and are far more well versed on the issue than all of the "experts" on this forum combined.
This guy is the real James Bond. He seems to have access to information not accessible in the academia. I mean, the position we hold are presented and cited in rather mainstream journals.
On the other hand, can your "experts" field an actual argument on this issue? How about you send the questions that were addressed to that Alcoholic poster? Close-minded prick, your understanding amounts to nothing.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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1. Chinese (+6 grades); 2. Black African (+5 grades), 3. Indian (+4.5 grades); 4. Bangladeshi (+4 grades); 5. Pakistani (+3 grades); 6. Caribbean (+2.5 grades); 7. Female (+2 grades); 8. White British Male (0)
That Africa Resource article shows that African Immigrants are more educated(as in have more degrees) than Asians yes, however it does not prove that Africans are more intelligent(as measured through IQ or "g") than Asians. As far as the GCSE results, I have already beaten that to death: the immigrant groups each represent a distinct cognitive elite. The results that you posted above shows THE AVERAGE for each group. The United Kingdom is a very homogeneous country; there are almost no minorities outside of the industrial centers of London, Manchester and Leeds. Comparing the large white population(92%) against the much smaller immigrant populations and trying to extrapolate and say that this proves that blacks are more intelligent than whites is statistically inaccurate.
Do you know why your arguments would fall? Well, it'd fall realizing that higher income African-American (who are obviously educated) tend to under perform vs. white counterparts in all classes in SAT testing.
That suggests that the "cognitive" elite (such nonsense) belonging to the African-American community see huge declines. If "intelligence" were to be inherited, in other words, it isn't inherited.
Why are their cognitively elite parents able to perform in demanding environments, but not their parents? You really need to start reading modern science onto this matter. It'd be interesting to see you quote a list of peer review sources that suggest that IQ is due to biology, rather than say, environment. Please don't post open source nonsense: get your academic friends to provide the data.
Also, when were Meghrebians so academically stunning in the West? I certainly remember the great news I remember hearing from my former Dutch and German roommates. No sympathy at all. Just a pack of child producing mutts.
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One more thing, does these studies actually assess IQ with income or wealth? Income is not a reliable indicator of mobility, wealth is. If we were to incorporate the fact that African-Americas have much lower median net worth than European Americans, the IQ (which is not invalid) disparity, would not be explainable.
The fact that this fool actually banks on the theory of races is amusing as well. You would expect evidence to that claim, but I've checked continuously, the quality of sources don't seem respectable at all.
quote:1)In what ways exactly are African Americans less modern than White and Asian Americans?
Much lower home ownership levels, at all income classes, suggesting lower financial stability. This is described in Charles Lewis Neir III - The Shadow of Credit.
quote:2)Why it is that Howard University, a predominantly black school, has a graduation rate of 54% when the University of Virginia, a predominantly white school, has one of 92%?
Have you considered socio-economic status? I mean, why do virtually all Black students who attend Harvard graduate? The rate is not very different from white counterparts either.
Those children can be considered elite at the cognitive level. However, why is there such a strong regression amongst children of the cognitive Black elites. In other words, why isn't intelligence passed onto children belonging to cognitively elite African families (as measured by income)?
This development suggests that high cognitively parents don't necessarily produce similar children. In fact, within the Black community, we're seeing lower SAT scores even at the highest SES. If intelligence was inherited, we'd expect that group to cluster with their parents rather than regress with the norm.
quote:3)Why is it that black americans consistently score the lowest on standardized test scores such as the SAT, GRE, MCAT and the LSAT?
Why do I get the idea that correlation is being presented as causality? Provide papers in a reputable genetics journal suggesting that Black-specific traits are involved in this disparity. Hell, before you do that, race must proven.
quote:4)At the school that I attend I am enrolled in course 20 (biological engineering), and out of 137 juniors only six are black; Why is this?
Environment. White kids are developed in environments that are more likely to produce science-geared students.
quote:5)In my previous post I drew reference to "Head Start," why is it that this program proved more effective in helping poor whites as opposed to poor blacks?
Race neutral programs tend to avoid the issue of racism. That is, racially biased teachers or children who were not developed to resist the more overt components on racism.
There are plenty studies in education that deals with the relationship between white educators and the black students. I'll post it in a bit as I have used it before.
The problem is, that program was bound to fail since the beginning. I don't know why even many African-Americans seem to perceive that they as people are integrated in that society. Having lived, I don't see that at all, and would argue that segregation may be the only option.
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What is the forum's position on Ancient Egypt and race? I don't see anything in the archives on this matter Instead. Direct us to the posts within those threads.
Interestingly, I see publications against Afrocentrism regarding the claim that Greeks "stole" knowledge from the Egyptians. Do the same existing suggesting that Ancient Egyptians were not tropically adapted indigenous Africans? It would be interesting to see that.
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