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Author Topic: Challenge to Negrocentric-Egyptomaniacs
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101: I grant the queen Tiye statue has something approaching the look, but this is not sustained by her actual mummy, which also has long flowy hair, by the way...    -
No matter how you twist it, turn it, flip it, alter it...etc...  

 -        -          

Akward this image shows differently,

   -                  -       

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 -  -

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Ish Geber
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Hair and the 'true negro'

"Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badrarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita.(1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)


Sampling bias and the true negro

In some Nile Valley research sampling bias persists such as drawing samples from the far north of Egypt, boscuring the region's genetic complexity. The stereotypical "true negro" type is still used to artifically separate related peoples and obscure a fuller, more accurate picture of African genetic diversity. Sampling bias appears both in DNA studies (noted by Keita) and in cranial studies (noted by Egyptologist Barry Kemp).


Keita on DNA studies drawing samples from the far north, an area with more foreign settlement and gene flow

"However, in some of the studies, only individuals from northern Egypt are sampled, and this could theoretically give a false impression of Egyptian variability (contrast Lucotte and Mercier 2003a with Manni et al. 2002), because this region has received more foreign settlers (and is nearer the Near East). Possible sample bias should be integrated into the discussion of results."(S.O.Y. Keita, A.J. Boyce, "Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation1," History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246 )

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anguishofbeing
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
This whole argument is to say the least retarded. Half the slaves mentioned were White and every single slave owner were either Wealthy or Nobility. How this advances your case is beyond me.

She wants to argue that the AEs were "racially mixed", had "middle skin tone between Negroid and Caucasian". She will then use mural paintings to prove they were different from not only "negro Kushites", but Euros and Asians as well. [Eek!] Priceless.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006790;p=1

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
 -

Ramesses II, Brooklyn Museum.

Is this your "mid skin tone between Caucasian and negro" - lioness vers. 2.0. I know you are familiar with the now famous mural thats posted on ES which shows Nubians with the same skin tone as the one above. No need to post again.
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Ish Geber
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"It is of interest that the M35 and M2 lineages are united by a mutation – the PN2 transition. This PN2 defined clade originated in East Africa, where various populations have a notable frequency of its underived state. This would suggest that an ancient population in East Africa, or more correctly it's males, form the basis of the ancestors of all African upper Paleolithic populations – and their subsequent descendants in the present day."  (--Bengtson, John D.(ed.), In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory: Essays in the four fields of anthropology. 2008. John Benjamins Publishing: pp. 3–16  


- The "Typical West African Y marker" ancestry was seen in the Nile Valley itself. In Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia it was sampled more than All Non-African lineages combined.  Y-chromosome (IV) E-M2: (1.2%) Lower Egypt, (27.3%)Upper Egypt (39.1%)Lower Nubia/Nile Valley."  

-Ethiopians share Paternal Markers A-M13, B-B60, E-M35, E-M2, E-V6, E-M78 as well as maternal markers L0,L1,L2, and L3 with Egyptians.


All undoubtedly African. Got the facts? Good!

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Ish Geber
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Two more African "Caucasians"

From the side view, as they always request.

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From now on I am going to look for differentiation in Europeans/ whites. Wether they have red hair, blond hair, brown hair, no lips, very thin lips, slightly fuller lips. Slick hair, slightly thicker hair, curls etc.... They are all different races.... Even so genetically. And must be treaded and categorized as such, no matter what they say. It must be forced upon them, simple ignore what they have to say. [Embarrassed]

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Ish Geber
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Pull out your nazi line masurement toolkit, and see how they actually dark-skinned caucasians.

 -  -


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rahotep101
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From now on let the descendants of these people:
 -

believe that the ancient Egyptian were the same as themselves...

Whereas these dubious characters:

 -

Must be intruders and impostors, and can't possibly descend from these:

 -

 -

Stands to reason, eh? Even though there's nothing to say the present day Coptic Egyptians have different genetic makeup to the ancient Egyptians on the whole. Even though ancient Egyptians with thick lips protruding as far as their noses are as common as blond Zulus.
Even though, in other words, it's next to impossible to find an ancient Egyptian who looks like this:

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Why don't we see these 'true negro' features among ancient Egyptians on a regular basis if they come from the same population?

I can see why you want to ban the words 'negro' and 'negroid' and thereby obscure things and stifle the debate. It seems quite obvious that not all dark-skinned 'black' Africans are negroids, and if closely related peoples can look so different that will take some explaining. Facial features are, after all, the result of genetics, are they not?.

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Brada-Anansi
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Rahotep
quote:
From now on let the descendants of these people: believe that the ancient Egyptian were the same as themselves... Whereas these dubious characters:
 -  -
Kinda like this guy after all you did say their descendants.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
 -
Why don't we see these 'true negro' features among ancient Egyptians on a regular basis if they come from the same population?

No, ''we'' DO see those extreme features ..
You're just blind as a bat.

 -

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argyle104
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You people are sick.

I really hope that its just a few people who are using sockpuppets talking to themselves. Even though that is crazy within itself, it still pales to the craziness of the loons, Zarahan, Sundiata, Djehuti, Ish Gebor, etc obsessing about race, looks, and acting like Africans are some kind of sideshow exhibit.


Don't you losers have a life?

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^Rahotep Hypocrite, what's taking you so long in providing
proof of 'true' whites -blond haired, blue-eyed
ancient Egyptians?

Like the true hypocrite you are, you
never apply your own model in reverse to whites.
You want to use proghathism as a 'true negro' marker
but don't likewise define 'true white' markers.
Show us some authentic blond, blue-eyed ancient
Egyptians, not Middle Easterners, not Asiatics,
but Egyptians looking like true white people, with
blond hair and blue eyes.

Don't tell us that white people vary in looks.
If you do you are a hypocrite because you deny
that blacks should inherently vary in how they look.
So let's apply your own standard consistently
across the board hypocrite. Don't run away.
Show true blond, blue-eyed white Egyptians.
Posting pictures of dark Italians or Turks will
show you up as the hypocrite you are. It won't
do, because you also deny that black people could
vary in their looks. Let's have one true negro
model and one true white model.

Apply your same hypocritical methods and let's
see what you got. Produce ancient Egyptians
looking like white Brittney Spears, or white
Robert Redford for example. They have to be
blond, and white skinned, and blue eyed which
is a clear marker of Caucasians.

 -
What's taking so long hypocrite?

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argyle104
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alTakruri wrote:
-----------------------------------
Really, no ones ever going to convince a propanda
panderer, it's their M.O. to proliferate propaganda
not to engage in rational discussion and certainly
never to admit anything other than their partyline.

And guess what? Anybody examining the issues beyond
a superficial level knows the guy's full of John Bullshit.

Who'd argue with a fool saying 2 & 2 is 22?
Well, that's exactly what some seemingly
like to do. It's easy to show 2 + 2 = 4.
Very little challenge, easier than work
on new paradigms or expanding on known
multi-disciplinary subject matter.
-----------------------------------


This forum has absolutely no intellectual value. There is no one here who posts daily or regularly that I take the time to read.


This forum has more value from a psychiatric frame. If you are a psychiatric professional, student, or just an ordinary person this forum provides a variety of specimens to observe, analyze, and diagnose pathologically.

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argyle104
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zarahan aka Djehuti,

You're one pitiful sap.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
From now on let the descendants of these people:
 -

believe that the ancient Egyptian were the same as themselves...

Whereas these dubious characters:

 -

Must be intruders and impostors, and can't possibly descend from these:

 -

 -

Stands to reason, eh? Even though there's nothing to say the present day Coptic Egyptians have different genetic makeup to the ancient Egyptians on the whole. Even though ancient Egyptians with thick lips protruding as far as their noses are as common as blond Zulus.
Even though, in other words, it's next to impossible to find an ancient Egyptian who looks like this:

 -
Why don't we see these 'true negro' features among ancient Egyptians on a regular basis if they come from the same population?

I can see why you want to ban the words 'negro' and 'negroid' and thereby obscure things and stifle the debate. It seems quite obvious that not all dark-skinned 'black' Africans are negroids, and if closely related peoples can look so different that will take some explaining. Facial features are, after all, the result of genetics, are they not?.

You are a dumb piece of ****. Since there is not such thing a the true "negro". You keep ranting on with your nazi matra.

The word negro derived from the Spanish word negra, meaning black.


Africans are not all like the woman you keep showing.

This is why you cannot respond to the posts of other pheonotypical features amongst Africans being posted here.


And before genetics, there is a result of mutation of these genes. Like local adaption of the environment and diet. As the main factors, in short biodiversity. But retarded nazis like you don't know or even understand this. So the reason why you will fine more diversity is because the continent is LARGER than europe, even in tiny Europe you will find diversity. Amongst Asians you will find lot of diversity as well, even with in the Chinese population, Indian population or Japanese you will find phenotypes based on tribe.

Furthermore, reason why the North of Egypt had a component of indigenous light skin is because of the environment, of Mediterranean. The woman you show I believe is from Congo?

Africans cluster genetically, yet look diverse. This is why people outside of Africa mutated and morphed genetically. Linked to haplo L3, L4.


Ethiopians and Khoisan share the deepest clades of the human Y-chromosome phylogeny. Semino O, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Falaschi F, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA.

Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universitŕ di Pavia, Pavia, Italy.

Abstract

The genetic structure of 126 Ethiopian and 139 Senegalese Y chromosomes was investigated by a hierarchical analysis of 30 diagnostic biallelic markers selected from the worldwide Y-chromosome genealogy. The present study reveals that (1) only the Ethiopians share with the Khoisan the deepest human Y-chromosome clades (the African-specific Groups I and II) but with a repertoire of very different haplotypes; (2) most of the Ethiopians and virtually all the Senegalese belong to Group III, whose precursor is believed to be involved in the first migration out of Africa; and (3) the Ethiopian Y chromosomes that fall into Groups VI, VIII, and IX may be explained by back migrations from Asia. The first observation confirms the ancestral affinity between the Ethiopians and the Khoisan, which has previously been suggested by both archaeological and genetic findings.


Phylogenetic tree of the Y-chromosome haplotypes and their percent frequencies in the two Ethiopian groups (Oromo and Amhara) and in the Senegalese of the present study, compared with the frequencies in the Ethiopians and Khoisan previously reported by Underhill et al.(2000). Numbering of mutations is according to Underhill et al.(2001): those examined in the present study are shown in boldface type; those inferred or reported by Underhill et al.(2000) are shown in italics. Haplotype numbers in the present study are shown in boldface type; those in italics are from Underhill et al.(2001). Group numbers refer to groups reported by Underhill et al.(2001). The frequency values in parentheses correspond to the subclassification of the haplotype defined only by the M89 mutation in the report by Underhill et al.(2000).


"In Somali males, 14 haplogroups were identified. The frequency of the clade E3b was 81.1%, including 77.6% of the haplogroup E3b1 defined by the M78 mutation. The Eurasian haplogroup K2 was found in 10.4%, and 3.0% of the Somali Y chromosomes belonged to the major clade J."


 -


Map of African areas where E3b1 cluster has been observed (the numbers of individuals are given in parentheses).10 (1) Moroccan Arabs (54), (2) Northern Egyptians (21), (3) Ethiopian Jews (22), (4) Ethiopian Amharas (34), (5) Ethiopian Wolaytas (12), (6) Mixed Ethiopians (12), (7) Ethiopian Oromos (25), (8) Somalia (224 including our Somali data), (9) Boranas (Oromos) from Kenya (seven), (10) Bantus from Kenya (28), (11) Tuaregs from Niger (22). The haplogroups or remaining paragroups are represented by different fill patterns. Lineages excluded from a haplogroup are listed within parentheses after the name of the haplogroup. The distribution of the Cushitic language in East Africa is shown in grey.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:
You people are sick.

I really hope that its just a few people who are using sockpuppets talking to themselves. Even though that is crazy within itself, it still pales to the craziness of the loons, Zarahan, Sundiata, Djehuti, Ish Gebor, etc obsessing about race, looks, and acting like Africans are some kind of sideshow exhibit.


Don't you losers have a life?

It's you and your dick sucking boy friend who are race obsessed and ignoring the diversity of African phenotypes. Calling Africans Caucasians? Ignoring studies and other facial features amongst Africans, other than the one you keep showing. [Confused] [Eek!] [Frown] [Embarrassed]

And I can spend my time how ever I like it, when I like it, dimwit!

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^Rahotep Hypocrite, what's taking you so long in providing
proof of 'true' whites -blond haired, blue-eyed
ancient Egyptians?

Like the true hypocrite you are, you
never apply your own model in reverse to whites.
You want to use proghathism as a 'true negro' marker
but don't likewise define 'true white' markers.
Show us some authentic blond, blue-eyed ancient
Egyptians, not Middle Easterners, not Asiatics,
but Egyptians looking like true white people, with
blond hair and blue eyes.

Don't tell us that white people vary in looks.
If you do you are a hypocrite because you deny
that blacks should inherently vary in how they look.
So let's apply your own standard consistently
across the board hypocrite. Don't run away.
Show true blond, blue-eyed white Egyptians.
Posting pictures of dark Italians or Turks will
show you up as the hypocrite you are. It won't
do, because you also deny that black people could
vary in their looks. Let's have one true negro
model and one true white model.

Apply your same hypocritical methods and let's
see what you got. Produce ancient Egyptians
looking like white Brittney Spears, or white
Robert Redford for example. They have to be
blond, and white skinned, and blue eyed which
is a clear marker of Caucasians.

 -
What's taking so long hypocrite?

Real whites have no lips, like these.

 -
 -

 -

 -

Like these,

 -

Not like these,

 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^Rahotep Hypocrite, what's taking you so long in providing
proof of 'true' whites -blond haired, blue-eyed
ancient Egyptians?

Like the true hypocrite you are, you
never apply your own model in reverse to whites.
You want to use proghathism as a 'true negro' marker
but don't likewise define 'true white' markers.
Show us some authentic blond, blue-eyed ancient
Egyptians, not Middle Easterners, not Asiatics,
but Egyptians looking like true white people, with
blond hair and blue eyes.

Don't tell us that white people vary in looks.
If you do you are a hypocrite because you deny
that blacks should inherently vary in how they look.
So let's apply your own standard consistently
across the board hypocrite. Don't run away.
Show true blond, blue-eyed white Egyptians.
Posting pictures of dark Italians or Turks will
show you up as the hypocrite you are. It won't
do, because you also deny that black people could
vary in their looks. Let's have one true negro
model and one true white model.

Apply your same hypocritical methods and let's
see what you got. Produce ancient Egyptians
looking like white Brittney Spears, or white
Robert Redford for example. They have to be
blond, and white skinned, and blue eyed which
is a clear marker of Caucasians.

 -
What's taking so long hypocrite?

Britney is not really white, she has brown eyes. And I do see some dark hair at the root.
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Brada-Anansi
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Ish and Zarahan you guys had your fun he been beat down compromised, turnt the hell out..show mercy?? or NOT!!.. [Big Grin]
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Ish and Zarahan you guys had your fun he been beat down compromised, turnt the hell out..show mercy?? or NOT!!.. [Big Grin]

Hummm, did I say real whites. Sorry, I meant real caucasoids.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Britney is not really white, she has brown eyes. And I do see some dark hair at the root.
^^lol..good job Ish.. Let us see now if he applies
his same stereotyping to his beloved caucasoids.
Let's see his double standards at work. How can
Brittney be white and have these varying looks,
but black people arent supposed to vary unless they
can be dismissed as "mixed"? Let's see their
hypocrisy at work.

Brada, we hve gone relatively easy on him, but by
contrast, "Rah" and his ilk are not showing any
mercy to the brothas. On forum after forum the
racist dogs are pumping out every racist slur
imaginable, and I don't just mean Stormfront. Ask
Morpheus, he'll tell ya. Nevertheless we usually
focus on credible research here on ES. Speaking
as to allegedly "mixed" Africans:

 -

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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anguishofbeing
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 -

^ true Caucasian right there.

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Calabooz '
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quote:
Britney is not really white, she has brown eyes. And I do see some dark hair at the root.
Obvious signs of her black admixture LOL

--------------------
L Writes:

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:

This forum has absolutely no intellectual value. There is no one here who posts daily or regularly that I take the time to read.


This forum has more value from a psychiatric frame. If you are a psychiatric professional, student, or just an ordinary person this forum provides a variety of specimens to observe, analyze, and diagnose pathologically. [/QB]

You have a point

but that point only has value if you can point to other forums which do have more intellectual value and people that are healthier mentally.

Unless you can point to a better way you are just going to come off as a nag.

the lost sheep need your guidance

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Djehuti
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LOL [Big Grin]

There is nothing one can do except laugh at all the insanity here and what else can you expect but insanity from a racist and thus senseless thread.

As for this "Baenra", whether or not he is Phoenician7, its obvious he is one of those distorters who loves to cite select parts of his sources while failing to show the rest.

"A brief comment on dental occlusion or malocclusion and facial types is appropriate. In general, perhaps owing to extremem wear, the dentition of ancient Egyptians (Old Kingdom) and ancient Nubians rarely exhibited dental crowding. The latter, in fact, tended to have congenitally missing teeth more reequently than supernumerary teeth (Harris and Ponitz 1996). Most modern Egyptians have good molar relationships with moderate to severe crowding, If, however the queens of the New Kingdom period (early Eighteenth Dynasty) are examined by x-ray cephalometry, many resemble modern Europeans or Americans, with maxillary, or upper jaw prognathism. This condition may be either hereditary or environmental, i.e., the result of thumb sucking or other oral habits. Queen Ahmose Nefertiry is an excellent example of this type of occlusion." (Mummies, Disease & Ancient Cultures; Cockburn, Cockburn, Reyman)

But then...

Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite. (J. Hassanali, GP Pokhariyal, "Anterior tooth relations in Kenyan Africans, Archives of Oral Biology 38 [Apr 1993] 337-42). Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/mummies.htm


"The theory that the Badarian originated in the south is, however, no longer accepted." Oxford History Of Ancient Egypt Shaw, 2003

LOL Whether the Badarian originated in the south or whether it was local still does not change the fact that the Badari like **all** cultures in Egypt like Egypt **itself** is AFRICAN.

Here is what the rest of the source says:

"The origins of the Badarian are equally problematic. It seems that the Badarian Culture did not appear from a single source although the Western Desert was probably the predominant one."

"The fact that the material culture of the Naqada culture was later found in northern Egypt with no Nubian elements would also seem to argue against any Nubian origin for the Egyptian state." Oxford History of Ancient Egypt Shaw 2003.

I find this statement by Shaw here to be a non-sequitor. He specifically says that Naqada culture was later found in northern Egypt obviously implying that the culture was earlier found in southern Egypt where it originated, as he states so elsewhere. The fact that the variant found in the north has no Nubian elements but the earlier one in the south did does not refute its Nubian origins!

Here is what Shaw also stated.

"The existence of a still earlier culture called the Tasian (Deir Tasa) has been claimed. The culture would have been characterized by the presence of calcium beakers with incised designs which are also known from contexts of similar date in Neolithic Sudan. The existence however of the Tasian as a chronologically or culturally seperated unit has never been demonstrated beyond doubt. Although most scholars consider the Tasian to be simply part of the Badarian Culture it has also been argued that the Tasian represents the continuation of a Lower Egyptian tradition which would be the immediate predecessor of the Naqada I Culture. This seems however implausible first because similarities with the Lower Egyptian Neolithic cultures are not convincing and secondly because of the Tasian's obvious ceramic links with the Sudan. If the Tasian must be considered as a seperate cultural entity then it might represent a nomadic culture with a Sudanese background and which interacted with the Badarian Culture."

Then the idiot cited:

While there is evidence for Eastern Desert influence on the Badarian culture (Majer 1992), Midant-Reynes (2000: 148, 164) convincingly argues for a strong element of Saharan culture:
“With regards to lithics, [Holmes (1989: 183)] points out that there are some similarities
with the post-Palaeolithic culture in the Sahara (an industry based on blades and flakes,in which polished axes and hollow-base arrowheads are not lacking), which means that we cannot exclude the possibility that the semicircle formed by the Bahariya, Farafra, Dakhla and Kharga oases might have been the point of origin of populations who perhaps already pursued a pastoral mode of subsistence; these people might have been pushed eastwards by increasing aridity and would eventually have settled in the region of Asyut and Tahta . . . [It] might even be suggested that the Neolithic cultures of the oases and the Faiyum could be regarded as the eastern fringes of the Sahara Neolithic groups.


Okay?? We are well aware of the Saharan region as the hearth of Egyptian cultures. Are you not aware that it was also the hearth of many cultures in Sub-Sahara?? After all, there was NO Sahara desert at that time which means no such division of African populations into "North" and "Sub-Saharan"!

The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Egypt rapidly found a method of disciplining the river, the land, and the people to transform the country into a titanic garden. Egypt rapidly developed detailed cultural forms that dwarfed its forebears in urbanity and elaboration. Thus, when new details arrived, they were rapidly adapted to the vast cultural superstructure already present. On the other hand, pharaonic culture was so bound to its place near the Nile that its huge, interlocked religious, administrative, and formal structures could not be readily transferred to relatively mobile cultures of the desert, savanna, and forest. The influence of the mature pharaonic civilizations of Egypt and Kush was almost confined to their sophisticated trade goods and some significant elements of technology. Nevertheless, the religious substratum of Egypt and Kush was so similar to that of many cultures in southern Sudan today that it remains possible that fundamental elements derived from the two high cultures to the north live on.--Joseph O. Vogel (1997)

quote:
the deepest genetic layer in North Africa seems to be mtDNA haplogroup U6, that is related with other U clades of West, Central and South Eurasia.
The U6 haplogroup has been discussed many times before and it's presence is predominantly restricted to Africa only. Funny that the U clade originated about 55,000 years ago at a time when modern humans were beginning to leave Africa, so how is U "Eurasian" when it is dated to when Eurasia was first being colonized??

quote:
“The Aterian goes back at least 145,000 years,”. European connection? Some features, such as the molars, of these 40,000-year old specimens from Romania resemble those of earlier North African hominins. Was North Africa The Launch Pad For Modern Human Migrations? 2011

Again, why are you associating Europeans with a time period when there were NO Eurasians at all, let alone Europeans?!! LMAO [Big Grin]

The rest of your nonsense was already debunked by the other guys. So I'll leave that alone. [Embarrassed]

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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Actually this is a True Caucasian..maybe they should be called "Above Mediteranian Europeans" or Blancos??

 -

 -
^^^^
The Whitest Skin, the Thinnest lips, Palest Eyes etc.

quote:
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
 -

^ true Caucasian right there.


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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
 -

^ true Caucasian right there.

No, not so. Real Caucasians have red hair and freckles with pale skin, including the very thin lips (as shown previously). And males usually have very hairy bodies.

 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Actually this is a True Caucasian..

 -

 -
^^^^
The Whitest Skin, the Thinnest lips, Palest Eyes etc.

quote:
Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
 -

^ true Caucasian right there.


Yes, lol you posted just a few seconds before I did.

Blonde and blue eyes is a relatively late mutation. The cause is lack of certain nutrition. (from what I know.)

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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^^^LOL I noticed that. Yeah if there is a True Caucasian it would be the Redhead or MC1R carriers as they have the whitest skin and features. Though if im not mistaken their hair is thicker than non Red Hair Europeans. But then again thin hair is an Asian trait.
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rahotep101
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Rahotep
quote:
From now on let the descendants of these people: believe that the ancient Egyptian were the same as themselves... Whereas these dubious characters:
 -  -
Kinda like this guy after all you did say their descendants.

My God, if you think anyone who had the misfortune to be human cargo during the years of the triangular trade looked like Clayton-Powell then you're crazy. For as start the man's mother was a mulatto, and his paternal grasdmother was also a mulatto with cherokee blood, while his grandfather was a white slave-owner of German descent, and it shows!
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
Originally posted by argyle104:

This forum has absolutely no intellectual value. There is no one here who posts daily or regularly that I take the time to read.


This forum has more value from a psychiatric frame. If you are a psychiatric professional, student, or just an ordinary person this forum provides a variety of specimens to observe, analyze, and diagnose pathologically.

You have a point

but that point only has value if you can point to other forums which do have more intellectual value and people that are healthier mentally.

Unless you can point to a better way you are just going to come off as a nag.

quote:
the lost sheep need your guidance
This comes from someone who doesn't know where Nubia/ Aswan is located. funny
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rahotep101
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These are 'true Caucasians', as this is what the indigenous people of the Caucasus look like:

 -

 -

 -

 -

What a nightmare it would be trying to find Egyptians who look like that!

 -

The idea that caucasians have to be red haired or blue eyed is nonsense.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
^^^LOL I noticed that. Yeah if there is a True Caucasian it would be the Redhead or MC1R carriers as they have the whitest skin and features. Though if im not mistaken their hair is thicker than non Red Hair Europeans. But then again thin hair is an Asian trait.

Actually they are like a different "race", due to the mutation they differ genetically and in visual appearance.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
This is a true Caucasian, as this is what the indigenous people of the Caucasus look like. It is also quite similar to what many Egyptuians look like.

 -

You are clearly a dumb ass. Not even knowing your own history. That is not the true Caucasian. Yet, you are obsessed with others.

True caucasians have red hair and freckles. And even there in that image you have posted it does not look closely to Egyptians. Especially the predecessors (of) and the ancient Egyptians. As studies on crania and limb portions have shown.

Can you quote some acient Greeks texts, on the explanation of the visual appearance of ancient Egyptians? Thanks in advance.

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Calabooz '
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quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
The idea that Caucasians have to be red hair or blue eyed is nonsense

And the idea that blacks have to have thick lips, prognathism or curly hair is equally nonsensical.

Egyptians resembled Africans. Not people of the Caucasus. Therefore they were not "Caucasians".

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Djehuti
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^ I think deep down the idiot knows that, but his white supremacy still has the best of him.

The idiot clings to the label of "caucasoid" without realizing that even many blacks in Sub-Sahara were defined as such as well.

 -

^ Note the orthognathy and pointed nose typical of Egpytians.

 -  -

The Sub-Saharan man would also be classified as "caucasoid".

And what are we to make of this actual Egyptian man from Thebes below?

 -

Or this Giza man from northern Egypt?

 -

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rahotep101
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Egyptians resembled Egyptians, who often resemble Armenians and Georgians, ergo true Caucasians. How many frekled blonde or auburn-haired Georgians have you seen? Red haired people are nowhere the majority, not even in Ireland, where dark brown hair is far more common than any other type. You probably have to go to scandinavia to find a blonde majority, although the third world rapists they are importing will no doubt shortly put pay to that. The Germans also mostly have dark hair, contrary to national stereotype.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by DaDumb1:

Egyptians resembled Egyptians, who often resemble Armenians and Georgians, ergo true Caucasians...

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

The only Egyptians who resemble Armenians and Georgians are those of Armenian and Georgian descent you idiot!! Or do you deny the influx of Caucasian peoples from the Caucasus into Egypt during the Ottoman period??!

Your knowledge of Egypt's population history is seriously lacking! I suggest you do research on the subject!! This belief of yours that modern Egyptians look the same as the ancient especially those living in northern Delta communities is ridiculous bullocks! Even the Egyptians of those communities acknowledge their own foreign ancestry!! LOL [Big Grin]

Even Ausar (a REAL Egyptian) has commented on the fact that people of the northern Delta are of obvious foreign descent not only due to their obvious physical appearance but also their accents and their surnames. For example the surname 'Abaza' is Circassian (from the Caucasus) and the Abazas trace their immigration during the Ottoman Empire! The Copts of Alexandria are a much older community however they are not indigenous either as they are the descendants of Greco-Roman colonialists as Alexandria itself was a Greek colonial city founded by Alexander! These communities received more recent input from their Greek kinsmen during the Ottoman period as well which is why many have Greek surnames such as 'Anastios'.

So all these bogus claims of yours are nothing but LIES. Get over it!

Mind you Ausar who is from southern Egypt is not the only REAL Egyptian here. There is another poster who goes by 'Multisphinx' who is from the Delta region and let's just say like Ausar he is not at all afraid to proclaim his BLACK AFRICAN identity and tell you khawagas (foreigners) off!

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rahotep101
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quote:
Originally posted by Calabooz':
quote:
Originally posted by rahotep101:
The idea that Caucasians have to be red hair or blue eyed is nonsense

And the idea that blacks have to have thick lips, prognathism or curly hair is equally nonsensical.

Egyptians resembled Africans. Not people of the Caucasus. Therefore they were not "Caucasians".

Are you sure about that?
Georgians:

 -


Egyptians:

 -

Ancient Egyptians:

 -


Clearly it would have been impossible for a Semitic Jew like Moses to be mistaken for an Egyptian, then... Not according to Exodus 2...

 -

Africans who do not have prognathism, frizzy hair or thick lips (and who are not darker than might be expected, given the climates they inhabit), are hardly blacks, are they? The Darker southern Egyptians still tend to look more like their northern compatriots in terms of phenotype than they do like sub-saharan Africans, and Egyptians are more related to each other than anyone else.

 -

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Mighty Mack
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^ Oh please!

Countless amount of research, along with the self portrayals of Dynastic Egyptians has shown the vast majority of Ancient Egyptians to be dark skinned and not light skinned. Simply because you can cherry-pick away and make some cheesy comparisons doesn't change this fact.

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Mighty Mack
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@Rahotep,

 -

Identify each image respectfully please?

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Djehuti
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And I repeat. [Embarrassed]

quote:
Originally posted by DaDumb1:

Egyptians resembled Egyptians, who often resemble Armenians and Georgians, ergo true Caucasians...

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

The only Egyptians who resemble Armenians and Georgians are those of Armenian and Georgian descent you idiot!! Or do you deny the influx of Caucasian peoples from the Caucasus into Egypt during the Ottoman period??!

Your knowledge of Egypt's population history is seriously lacking! I suggest you do research on the subject!! This belief of yours that modern Egyptians look the same as the ancient especially those living in northern Delta communities is ridiculous bullocks! Even the Egyptians of those communities acknowledge their own foreign ancestry!! LOL [Big Grin]

Even Ausar (a REAL Egyptian) has commented on the fact that people of the northern Delta are of obvious foreign descent not only due to their obvious physical appearance but also their accents and their surnames. For example the surname 'Abaza' is Circassian (from the Caucasus) and the Abazas trace their immigration during the Ottoman Empire! The Copts of Alexandria are a much older community however they are not indigenous either as they are the descendants of Greco-Roman colonialists as Alexandria itself was a Greek colonial city founded by Alexander! These communities received more recent input from their Greek kinsmen during the Ottoman period as well which is why many have Greek surnames such as 'Anastios'.

So all these bogus claims of yours are nothing but LIES. Get over it!

Mind you Ausar who is from southern Egypt is not the only REAL Egyptian here. There is another poster who goes by 'Multisphinx' who is from the Delta region and let's just say like Ausar he is not at all afraid to proclaim his BLACK AFRICAN identity and tell you khawagas (foreigners) off!

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Djehuti
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I also repeat as per the very topic of this thread:

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

I haven't seen a thread this racist and stupid since the troll Evil-Euro used to plague this forum. As al-Takruri and others have pointed out this is nothing more than a stupid strawman tactic based on Eurocentric Doctrine #1:

PHYSICAL CALIBRATION DOCTRINE: In which white anthropologists treat people as racial specimens, measuring "cephalic indices" and attempting to prove superiority of the "white" brain. Ugly racist terminology: "prognathism," "platyrhiny," "steatopygous," "sub-Egyptian." Mug-shot lineups of "the Veddan female," "Arapaho male, "Negroid type," "Mongoloid specimen" characterize this approach. Out of favor in the mid-20th-century, it has enjoyed a revisionist comeback with sociobiology and works claiming racial differentials in intelligence, such as "The Bell Curve."

It is a strawman tactic totally dependent upon the lie of the "true negro" concept and in this case the trait of full facial prognathism. It is a strawman because of the very fact that over a third of peoples in Sub-Sahara alone do not possess that trait, as if such a trait determined black African identity. It is because of such a trait or rather the lack thereof that many peoples in Sub-Sahara were classified as "Hamitic" or "caucasoid"!

The Cambridge History of Africa (Hardcover)
by J. D. Fage (Editor)
Cambridge University Press (March 30, 1979)
p.69

Skeletal remains from the Kenya Rift previously considered as 'Afro-Mediterranean' or 'Caucasoid' have now been shown to group with African Negro samples. They date within the first millennium BC and, on physical characteristics, it is suggested that they may be of proto-Nilotic stock. But it is necessary to also make comparisons with Cushitic speakers, since burials found recently in association with a Kenya Capsian-like industry from Lake Besaka in the Ethiopian Rift, dating probably to c. 5000 BC, also show negroid features, and linguistic evidence indicates long history for Cushitic in Ethiopia.


"Claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been
shown to be wrong,..
" - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.

Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa (1975)
p.53, 54

"In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range:
only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range;
60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage.....
"

Suffice to say, the most common type of prognathism among dynastic Egyptians was not full facial but alveolar progranthism which is protrusion of the dental part of the mouth.

Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite. (J. Hassanali, GP Pokhariyal, "Anterior tooth relations in Kenyan Africans, Archives of Oral Biology 38 [Apr 1993] 337-42). Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans.

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/mummies.htm

Although alveolar prognathism was prevalent enough to be the norm among dynastic Egyptians, full facial prognathism was not unusual either.

On Sekenenra Tao, last ruler of the 17th dynasty and forefather of the 18th dynasty: His entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs (full facial prognathism) that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian--that is, non-Egyptian--origin for Seqenenra and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true. If it is, the history of the family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination.

Seqenenra Tao is by far not the only exception and as there are others including those of the pyramid building era. And as Calabooz has pointed out, full facial prognathism was a trait common amongst the predynastic Badarians.

So enough of the nonsense! [Embarrassed]

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Calabooz '
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I've been paying less and less attention to Rahotep, but now he's just on ignore.

quote:
Originally posted by Siptah:
^ Oh please!

Countless amount of research, along with the self portrayals of Dynastic Egyptians has shown the vast majority of Ancient Egyptians to be dark skinned and not light skinned. Simply because you can cherry-pick away and make some cheesy comparisons doesn't change this fact.

Exactly. That was ultimately the point of AlTakuri making this thread here but of course Rahotep copped out and said he didn't want to participate. And yet here he is posting the same selective images he always has.


But in the end, I guess it's all subjective. He sees Armenoid "Caucasoids" and rational people who aren't blind see Africans with dark skin whom we would normally label black. But also as you mention, research has also prooved him wrong countless times. He just doesn't care, he'll just keep repeating the same stuff regardless of what data we provide him with

--------------------
L Writes:

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by Calabooz':
He just doesn't care, he'll just keep repeating the same stuff regardless of what data we provide him with

Hence the perfect reason to ignore him. We should set up debates more formally. For example, posting a ScribD rebuttal to Brandon's recent essay seems more appropriate than bickering with trolls, as well as does posting up new research. For instance, essays from school or self-initiated mini-projects. I have a few lined up, one of which ausar had suggested concerning indigenous African medicine.
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Baenra
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“We examined radiographs of 12 Egyptian royal mummies obtained by two of the authors (W.R. and J.E.H.) and never before published. These people were Caucasian." (” 1988 Braunstein, M.D. et al)

"The sharp nasal sills indicate a Caucasoid person" "The Remains Of Queen Weret" 12th dynasty (Brier, Zimmerman; 2000)

Noone had an explanation for the above.



quote:
Truthcentric: Where's the full citation?
In other words, you can't refute it. Funny, I don't recall you fully citing any of the studies you post. In fact, the only thing you constantly spam is the Keita chart based on 12-15 variables. Howells is based on 57 variables and worldwide comparisons so don't make me laugh.


quote:
Zaharan: He doesn't post the full citation because it has been debunked here before at ES as to his racial claims. He is spamming it across the web, even on forums like downloadpolitics.com
It hasn't been debunked, not by you, not by anyone. It says, point blank they were Caucasian and I'm sure you're not getting much sleep knowing that. Never heard of downloadpolitics, so good luck proving that fake paranoid claim. You're one to talk about spam.


quote:
Calaboz: Not sure what the heck they're basing this on- no doubt some form of bias.
Either prove its bias or just admit you're in denial based on your own bias. I accept Briers statement as factual, unlike you he's an Egyptologist and knows what he's talking about. You don't.

You've posted snippets that are outdated yet seem to think it refutes the more recent studies I posted. You also directed us to information that runs contrary to your own argument and on top of that, you argue against your own argument. Priceless.

BTW Personally, I left this debate after my last post to you due to my disgust at the hypocrisy and idiocy contained your pathetic exchange. I responded to your post as a courtesy. You (among others) are the one desperately arguing that ancient Egyptians were black/negroid while stating that black/negroid does not exist and since blacks/negroes do not exist on your own admission, ancient Egyptians could not have been blacks/negroids.

The majority of you deny the concept of race based on science and yet support what you call unscientific definitions of race when classifying the ancient Egyptians, so there is no reason for me to waste my time refuting a position that is inherently invalid by the arguers own admission.

If the two studies above described the mummies as black/negroid, every one of these Afrocentrists would have accepted it on its face as is. They were Caucasian.

The posters on this forum are slanderous, dripping of racism (some are overtly paranoid) towards anyone posting differing information. No one here abides by the very terms that they agreed to when they signed on and the moderators let it fly under the radar purposely. I am not interested in debating with people who have issues and chips on their shoulders and who at the very minimal deny what Caucasoid is. This place is the internets laughing stalk.

Seeking a well intentioned, respectable forum with higher standards, much higher standards.

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TruthAndRights
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Rahotep
quote:
From now on let the descendants of these people: believe that the ancient Egyptian were the same as themselves... Whereas these dubious characters:
 -  -
Kinda like this guy after all you did say their descendants.

If I eva...lolololol....whoii Brada yuh nuh easy...lol.... [Razz] [Big Grin]
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Baenra:
In other words, you can't refute it.

Because you don't provide the whole fucking citation, you stupid Nazi punk!

quote:
Funny, I don't recall you fully citing any of the studies you post.
I provided a lot more info about my citations than you ever did. In one case I even provided an actual link to the paper! Read my post again.

quote:
In fact, the only thing you constantly spam is the Keita chart based on 12-15 variables. Howells is based on 57 variables and worldwide comparisons so don't make me laugh.
I thought we were discussing Hanihara rather than Howells...regardless, Howells's Late Period Egyptian series has been found to be not representative of Egyptian crania:

"Howells global data set are morphologically distinct from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially in cranial vault shape and height), and thus show that this sample cannot be considered to be a typical Egyptian series."---Zakrzewski, Sonia R. "Intra-population and temporal variation in ancient Egyptian crania." In Program of the Seventy-Third Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists, 215. Tampa, FL: American Association of Physical Anthropologists, 2004.

And I love how you ignored my other citation below the Keita graph as well as my showing you that nonmetric studies like Hanihara's are not the best way to measure interpopulation affinities!

quote:
Seeking a well intentioned, respectable forum with higher standards, much higher standards.
You mean you're seeking a place full of dimwitted Nazi shitheads like you. Well, if you aren't going to continue this debate, good riddance to you!
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TruthAndRights
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Real whites have no lips, like these.

[Confused] where is his upper lip- he has none?  -

 -


Is why they do this to themSelves enuh:

 -  -  -

 -

They pay nuff money to have what we are born with Naturally (thanks to our Africanness).... [Cool]

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^way to school them Truthcen.

--------------------------

Originally posted by Calabooz:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by rahotep101:
The idea that Caucasians have to be red hair or blue eyed is nonsense

And the idea that blacks have to have thick lips, prognathism or curly hair is equally nonsensical.

^^Exactly.. exposing him for the hypocrite he is.
Note the hypocrite's double standard, how he
wants to deny black variability, while exempting
his beloved "Caucasoids"..

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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Calabooz '
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Phoenician7/Baenra,


What a cop out. Not only do you not understand that black is not a racial Classification like the term "Negroid" but that they are not synonymous. Nor do you even understand what "race" entails if you think that showing population affinities is the same as suggesting racial groups. The author of the statement made in your citation wasn't based on anything but their own beliefs. Which is why they said "presumably" Semetic; ergo, they say they were Caucasian based on their presumption/belief that they were Semtic which we know with absolute certainty to be untrue. You just run away and claim my citations are outdated even though I cited recent genetic articles and the same Harris and Wente book, although the poster at ES obviously have a greater understanding than do you. The only old article I cited was Barry and Berry. But as I said, it was supported by Zakrzewski (2011) and Harris and Wente's book. And yet you are the one using an article claiming Egyptians were Semitic. So, which is really outdated?


Truthcentric, wanna know why he didn't include the full context of the citation? Because he knows it bull:


"To the physician, the paleopathologic findings
are of great importance. In our study, there were
findings ranging from developmental anomalies to
advanced geriatric disease
. Although lunate triquetral fusion has never before been described in the ancient Egyptian population it was seen in two of the 12 mummies. These people were Caucasian, **presumably** Semetic"


So these people were of the mindset that the ancient Egyptians were "Semetic". Not only that, but their study doesn't have anything to do with biological affinities but developmental anomalies and advanced geriatric diseases! So as I said, the author(s) statement was based on their own belief as evident by their own wording.

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