posted
My reading on Ancient Egypt has linked to several related topics, the latest one being the presence of Africans in Arabia.
Given that the crossing from Eritrea/Djibouti into Yemen was the OOA migration route, it would seem that these would have been the first and original Arabians. I understand that there would have been further waves of Africans making the crossing, and that there would have been contact between Africans on both sides of the Red Sea.
However, on the question of whether today's black Yemenis are indigenous, the response is that they are the descendants of slaves.
Can anyone shed any light on/provide a link to an old thread on whether today's black Yemenis are the descendants of slaves or whether they are indigenous?
Book recommendations would also be appreciated.
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claus3600 - Your approach is wrong. Wouldn't it be far simpler to simply identify who is making the claim? I can guarantee you that their origins are far easier to trace. Once you understand their origins, then your question is answered.
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Claus, mike is right in asking who is making the claim that they are descendants of slaves.
There are several groups of black yemenis and the majority of them are accepted by other yemenis as arabs as much as any off-white yemeni. Many of them also speak south arabian languages (these languages are related to arabic but are separate languages which are indigenous to yemen. Non-black groups don't even speak these langs so that should be a big hint). There are, however, blacks called the ahdam who are despised and treated quite horribly in yemen. They seem to be a caste like the untouchables in india. I don't know what their origin is but if any black yemenis aren't arab in origin it would be only them (aside from immigrants).
Just do a google search of this forum and you should find ample info. If you see posts by Dana, those would be good to read as she's quite knowledgeable on the subject.
Bertram Thomas' book, Arabia Felix, is available in it's entirety or in 90% on google. Just search their book section. It's an old book but he speaks about his wide travels in yemen and the customs of the various arabs there (whom he describes as having black or near black color).
If you want a good summary that's quicker than reading a book of how off-whites came to be seen as representative of arabs then read this paper by Wesley Muhammad here. Seek out the works in his citations if you want more detail or verification. Tariq Berry's book the Unknown Arabs seems to have good info though i've never read it.
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Wait did you not just envoke "West Asian" Migrations to Africa on another thread?? You think these Migrations went one way?? A Magical Barrier keeping Africans from Migrating actoss the Aden Gulf and the Sinai that only allowed "West Asians" to cross..
lol
quote:Originally posted by Atemu: They are mostly descendants of slaves or they are recent immigrants.
There are thousands of Africans in Scandinavia as well, who cares.
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I think this hadith (sayings and deeds of the prophet and his companions) explains the situation well:
quote: [The Messenger of God said:] “I dreamed that I drove before me some black sheep, then I drove after them some white sheep, so that the black could not be seen among them.” And Abu Bakr said: “O apostle of God, as for the black sheep, they signified the Arabs who shall embrace the faith and increase in numbers, and the white sheep are the non-Arabs ('ajam) who shall be converted until the Arabs shall not be seen among them by reason of their numbers.” The apostle of God replied, “likewise did the angel interpret it this morning.”
posted
Atemu - Few Turk mulattoes post here anymore, or as I like to call them "Sand Niggers". There is a reason for their absence. Quite simply I don't like liars, especially liars so ignorant that they don't even know their own history.
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Southwest Arabia During the Holocene: Recent Archaeological Developments.
Abstract Recent fieldwork has considerably increased our knowledge of early Holocene settlement in Southwest Arabia. Neolithic settlement occurred within an environmental context of increased monsoonal moisture that continued during the mid-Holocene. A now well-attested Bronze Age exemplified by village- and town-scale settlements occupied by sedentary farmers developed toward the end of the mid-Holocene moist interval. The high plateau of Yemen was an early focus for the development of Bronze Age complex society, the economy of which relied upon terraced rain-fed and runoff agriculture. On the fringes of the Arabian desert, the precursors of the Sabaean literate civilization have been traced back to between 3600 and 2800 B.P., and even earlier, so that a virtually continuous archaeological record can now be described for parts of Yemen. In contrast to the highlands these societies relied upon food production from large-scale irrigation systems dependent upon capricious wadi floods. Bronze Age settlement, while showing some links with the southern Levant, now shows equal or stronger linkages with the Horn of Africa across the Red Sea. Although some regions of Yemen show breaks in occupation, others show continuity into the Sabaean period when a series of major towns grew up in response to the incense trade with the north. It is now clear that these civilizations grew up on the foundations of earlier Bronze Age complex societies.
AuthorsTeebi AS, et al. Show all Journal Community Genet. 2005;8(1):21-6.
Abstract
The Arabs in general are genetically diverse. Major factors that contributed to their diversity include the migrations of Semitic tribes from the Arabian Peninsula, the Islamic expansion in the 7th century AD, the Crusade wars and the recent migration dynamics. These events have resulted in the admixture of the original Arabs with other populations extending from east and south Asia to Europe and Africa. Their demographic features include high rates of consanguinity, a large family size and a rapid population growth. There is a high frequency of autosomal recessive disorders and increased frequencies of homozygosity for autosomal dominant traits, such as familial hypercholesterolemia and X-linked traits, such as glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency. The patterns of autosomal recessive disorders, including their mutations, may be different in various geographic locations within the Arab world. However, there are disorders that are specifically prevalent among the Arabs either uniformly or in certain locations. The Arab Genetic diseases include Bardet-Biedl syndrome, Meckel syndrome, autosomal recessive severe childhood muscular dystrophy, osteopetrosis and renal tubular acidosis, Sanjad-Sakati syndrome and others.
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quote:Originally posted by Atemu: They are mostly descendants of slaves or they are recent immigrants.
There are thousands of Africans in Scandinavia as well, who cares.
Well considering blacks ruled over Arabia for at the very least 500 years, up until the time of Prophet Muhammad s3w, these blacks could also be descendent from those Axumites. Just as they could also be remnants of the blacks who ruled over the savages in M.E. during the time of the 18th dynasty when they tore ass through the middle east and subdued the barbarians.
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LOL! Blacks have been in Arabia since day one. So I don't think that 500 years is long enough.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: LOL! Blacks have been in Arabia since day one. So I don't think that 500 years is long enough.
I am not saying Blacks have not been the M.E. east longer. But lets not be delusional or try to rewrite history. SOME of the Blacks in the M.E. today are descended from that Axumite empire. Specifically the ones in Yemen they call akhdam. They have subjugated these people and put them on the bottom of the society since the Axumite empire fell. The Arabs say it is in pay back for what the habashi peoples' forefathers did to the Arabs way back when. As I have mentioned before, Surat Al Fil in the Quran is even a testament to this history.
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Don't forget that Yemen was colonized by Iranians during the Sassanid dynasty and again during the Ottoman period. Many of the so-called off-white Yemenis are either of Iranian descent or Syrian descent. The fair-skinned elite are definitely Iranian as many of them speak an Arab dialect that is very Persian sounding.
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After I've been to China and hopefully developed my spoken fluency and literacy in Mandarin to a professional standard, I want to learn Egyptian Arabic.
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Where does that idiot typezeiss get it from that the akhdam are descendants of axumites? He's throwing around wild theories with no backing. Then he's talking about the "arabs" say. Who gives a crap what some modern arabs with no evidence and pulling theories out their ass have to say. And akhdam aren't the only black yemeni's anyway so there's no point in mentioning the akhdam.
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I only know a few words here and there. To be honest I know more French and Spanish than Arabic and I can only speak those two latter in broken form. My knowledge on Yemenis come from the mouths of actual Yemenis themselves as well as Horn Africans who have lived in Yemen.
quote:After I've been to China and hopefully developed my spoken fluency and literacy in Mandarin to a professional standard, I want to learn Egyptian Arabic.
If I only had Rosetta Stone I would be fluent in a bunch of languages by now!
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After I've been to China and hopefully developed my spoken fluency and literacy in Mandarin to a professional standard, I want to learn Egyptian Arabic.
why Egyptian Arabic? Unless you plan to only visit Egypt, that form of Arabic may not be of that much of use. Some of the old language is still present in Egyptian arabic, like for example the word Sit (lady) is still used, they also don't use the letter qaf which is so weird lol. For instance the word for heart in Arabic is Qalbi, but Egyptians say Albi. Also the letter jeem which is a j in english is a g for them. so jamal becomes gamal, jadeed = gadeed etc. It would be better to find a class that teaches modern standard Arabic and then you should either find Egyptian friends or go visit alot to develop your Egyptian dialect.
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Muhommed was a plagiarist. His words were taken from the writing of Enoch without attribution. He put his little slant to it but clearly from the works of Enoch.
quote:Originally posted by africurious: I think this hadith (sayings and deeds of the prophet and his companions) explains the situation well:
quote: [The Messenger of God said:] “I dreamed that I drove before me some black sheep, then I drove after them some white sheep, so that the black could not be seen among them.” And Abu Bakr said: “O apostle of God, as for the black sheep, they signified the Arabs who shall embrace the faith and increase in numbers, and the white sheep are the non-Arabs ('ajam) who shall be converted until the Arabs shall not be seen among them by reason of their numbers.” The apostle of God replied, “likewise did the angel interpret it this morning.”
quote:Originally posted by Confirming Truth: Muhommed was a plagiarist. His words were taken from the writing of Enoch without attribution. He put his little slant to it but clearly from the works of Enoch.
quote:Originally posted by africurious: I think this hadith (sayings and deeds of the prophet and his companions) explains the situation well:
quote: [The Messenger of God said:] “I dreamed that I drove before me some black sheep, then I drove after them some white sheep, so that the black could not be seen among them.” And Abu Bakr said: “O apostle of God, as for the black sheep, they signified the Arabs who shall embrace the faith and increase in numbers, and the white sheep are the non-Arabs ('ajam) who shall be converted until the Arabs shall not be seen among them by reason of their numbers.” The apostle of God replied, “likewise did the angel interpret it this morning.”
Oh God, you people.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all originate in the Nile valley, PERIOD. Most, if not all of those prophets mentioned i.e. David, Solomon, Enoch, Abraham, Jesus, etc. are ALL Africans, and from what I have read, at the VERY least David, Solomon, Moses and Jesus were royal family in 18th dynasty.
The idea that there was some Hebrew kingdom in Israel is a farce/lie. Historically there never was a Jewish people, its all make believe. As for the origins of the Quran, Bible etc. just look to the Book of coming fourth by day. The same source as that, is the same source as Quran and Bible, not some book of Enoch.
Read Moses and Monotheism by Freud Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt by Ahmed Osman Egyptian Gods volumes I & II by Budge Ancient Egypt, the light of the world by G. Massey The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler The invention of the Jewish people by Shlomo Sand
Underneath all the allegories these are nothing more than Astrological religions. Islam by the way does not claim to be a new religion. It claims to be a continuation of the old religion, its purpose is to correct the corruptions of the old religion and set it back on its right footing.
P.S.
Ntr are not "gods" they are divine aspects of the One God. In Islam its referred to as the 99 names of Allah. You understand that concept, you understand the ntr. Also, if speculation is right concerning the kemetic language being a pidgin language or lingua franca, it would explain why one word like ntr was used to describe any and everything "divine" be they prophets, angels or the Deity.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by claus3600: My reading on Ancient Egypt has linked to several related topics, the latest one being the presence of Africans in Arabia.
Given that the crossing from Eritrea/Djibouti into Yemen was the OOA migration route, it would seem that these would have been the first and original Arabians. I understand that there would have been further waves of Africans making the crossing, and that there would have been contact between Africans on both sides of the Red Sea.
However, on the question of whether today's black Yemenis are indigenous, the response is that they are the descendants of slaves.
Can anyone shed any light on/provide a link to an old thread on whether today's black Yemenis are the descendants of slaves or whether they are indigenous?
Book recommendations would also be appreciated.
There is no either-or answer to this question.
Some of the peoples that are black in Yemen and Arabia are descendants of slaves. Some of the people that are black in Yemen and the rest of Arabia are directly descended from indigenous and pure Arabs. Early Arabia was considered part of the Horn and the country east of the Nile and the whole peninsula extending to India and Babylonia was "Arabia". For the Greeks "Arabia" was literally the name of the area of Africa east of the Nile extending past Abyssinia as well as peninsular Arabia.
We know that there was little difference in the early historical African and Arabian populations from skeletal evidence and from archeological evidence of tombs, megaliths etc. just as we know it about Egypt from skeletal evidence in egypt, the Horn and Nubia.
Most Arabs today in Arabia are only partly Arab genetically. (Although some probably have very little.) However, the following clans in Arabia largely remain Ethiopic in appearance due to their practice of interbreeding and not having absorbed as many foreigners. They are significantly made up mostly of descendants of the ancient Arabs related to early Saharan and Nubian groups that populated East Africa and Arabia during the neolithic and Bronze age and therefore still claim an ancient African origin.
They include the Mahra/Mahri, Shahra or Shehr, Bautahara, Afariyya, Maddhij, Shamran, Tayyi, Junabah, Hudhail bin Mudrika, Kinanah, Quraysh. THey also include some of the clans of the Murad, Dawasir, Harb, Rashid, Hamida, Yafi'i as well as the Kab bin Amir Bin Zaza'a, Shihiyyan/Shihu, Uqayl bin Ka'b, al- Muntafiq bin Ka'b bin Uqayl (or Rabi'a) groups in Iraq.
There are also some groups in Central Arabia that still qualify as lesser modified Arabs.
Most other groups in ARabia have been absorbed by non-Arab peoples or vice versa.
There is no one book that talks about the subject yet. If u read the some of the old British colonialist writings on the tribes of Arabia as they saw them however, you can see they also knew that the purest Arab groups were those related to Cushitic speakers.
Most modern people of Arabia today are a mixture of peoples derived from the Levant, Turks and Persians just as the Northern Egyptians are. They are groups descended from mercenaries and slave soldiers of Iranian descent and some of Mameluk Turk and Ayyubid Turk origin that came and began interbreeding with the population.
The same ripples or waves of non-African people that flooded northern Egypt also came southward into Arabia including Syrian bedouin (an Arabized group) after the 16th century.
Of course the earliest tribes people of the Hijaz or al Harra were said by al Jahiz (9th c.) to be black people taking Byzantine concubines. Thus it is rather interesting that there are any black populations left in the area.
The same area is described (Hijaz from Mecca to the Asir) and said to have been inhabited by people of "very dark purple color" in Chinese texts in the 14th century. Mancall, 2006, Travel narratives from the age of discovery: An anthology, pp.126 -127; Waley-Cohen, 2000, The Sextants of Beijing: Global Currents in Chinese history. NY: W.W. Norton and Company.p. 48)
And at the same period Syrian al-Dhahabi a 14th century traveler also claimed it was very rare to see a fair- skinned person in this area, and that at that time such people with "fair skin" were considered to descend from captured slaves.
That suggests that the change in complexion in ARabia has been very recent - within the last several hundred years or since the 15th century. This area of Hijaz and Al Harra was at that period inhabited by the descendants of Qahtan (like the Azd, Djurhum and Harb) and Adnan (Sulaym, Rabiyya and Hawazin, etc.) i.e., the early and truly the only indigenous Arab peoples. Descendants of Abyssinian soldiers made up a very small portion of the Arab i.e. black population.
There are unquestionably also many populations in Arabia and the Persian Gulf today who are descended from recent peoples of the Central East African area brought to Arabia as slaves or slave soldiers.
Many of the Akhdam are descended from these people while others are descended from indigenous Arabs i.e. blacks.
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^ Dana is correct. It is a blanket statement to assume that all black peoples in Arabia are descendants of "slaves" or recent immigrants. To say such is an obvious lie. Arabia lies right next to Africa and shares the same latitudes as Egypt, Sudan, and the Horn.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Oh God, you people.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all originate in the Nile valley, PERIOD. Most, if not all of those prophets mentioned i.e. David, Solomon, Enoch, Abraham, Jesus, etc. are ALL Africans, and from what I have read, at the VERY least David, Solomon, Moses and Jesus were royal family in 18th dynasty.
Actually the three great so-called 'Abrahamic' religions did not originate from the Nile Valley but from Semitic religions of the area. Whatever similarities exist is due to common Afrisian origins since Semitic is a branch of Afrisian and recent influences from Egypt via the kingdom of Israel.
quote:The idea that there was some Hebrew kingdom in Israel is a farce/lie. Historically there never was a Jewish people, its all make believe. As for the origins of the Quran, Bible etc. just look to the Book of coming fourth by day. The same source as that, is the same source as Quran and Bible, not some book of Enoch.
So you disagree with the historical and archaeological fact that there was a kingdom of Israel in the Levant? Whether or not there was a Jewish ethnicity as opposed to religion is another debate, but are suggesting the historical records for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah are a lie??
quote:Read Moses and Monotheism by Freud Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt by Ahmed Osman Egyptian Gods volumes I & II by Budge Ancient Egypt, the light of the world by G. Massey The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler The invention of the Jewish people by Shlomo Sand
Underneath all the allegories these are nothing more than Astrological religions. Islam by the way does not claim to be a new religion. It claims to be a continuation of the old religion, its purpose is to correct the corruptions of the old religion and set it back on its right footing.
Again all of this is continuation of the ancient Semitic relgions whose deities are largely astronomical in nature.
quote:P.S.
Ntr are not "gods" they are divine aspects of the One God. In Islam its referred to as the 99 names of Allah. You understand that concept, you understand the ntr. Also, if speculation is right concerning the kemetic language being a pidgin language or lingua franca, it would explain why one word like ntr was used to describe any and everything "divine" be they prophets, angels or the Deity.
Last time I checked the Ntr numbered far greater than 99. As far as I'm aware of ntr is not used to describe mortal people like prophets, and I don't think the Egyptians had 'angels' either.
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quote:Originally posted by Confirming Truth: Muhommed was a plagiarist. His words were taken from the writing of Enoch without attribution. He put his little slant to it but clearly from the works of Enoch.
It is a fact that before his prophethood Muhammad was part of a religious group (I forgot the name) which takes a lot from Jewish and Christian texts. According to tradition it was a Christian monk named Bahira who may have introduced Muhammad to this even though Muhammad himself was supposedly illiterate.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Dana is correct. It is a blanket statement to assume that all black peoples in Arabia are descendants of "slaves" or recent immigrants. To say such is an obvious lie. Arabia lies right next to Africa and shares the same latitudes as Egypt, Sudan, and the Horn.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Oh God, you people.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all originate in the Nile valley, PERIOD. Most, if not all of those prophets mentioned i.e. David, Solomon, Enoch, Abraham, Jesus, etc. are ALL Africans, and from what I have read, at the VERY least David, Solomon, Moses and Jesus were royal family in 18th dynasty.
Actually the three great so-called 'Abrahamic' religions did not originate from the Nile Valley but from Semitic religions of the area. Whatever similarities exist is due to common Afrisian origins since Semitic is a branch of Afrisian and recent influences from Egypt via the kingdom of Israel.
quote:The idea that there was some Hebrew kingdom in Israel is a farce/lie. Historically there never was a Jewish people, its all make believe. As for the origins of the Quran, Bible etc. just look to the Book of coming fourth by day. The same source as that, is the same source as Quran and Bible, not some book of Enoch.
So you disagree with the historical and archaeological fact that there was a kingdom of Israel in the Levant? Whether or not there was a Jewish ethnicity as opposed to religion is another debate, but are suggesting the historical records for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah are a lie??
quote:Read Moses and Monotheism by Freud Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt by Ahmed Osman Egyptian Gods volumes I & II by Budge Ancient Egypt, the light of the world by G. Massey The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler The invention of the Jewish people by Shlomo Sand
Underneath all the allegories these are nothing more than Astrological religions. Islam by the way does not claim to be a new religion. It claims to be a continuation of the old religion, its purpose is to correct the corruptions of the old religion and set it back on its right footing.
Again all of this is continuation of the ancient Semitic relgions whose deities are largely astronomical in nature.
quote:P.S.
Ntr are not "gods" they are divine aspects of the One God. In Islam its referred to as the 99 names of Allah. You understand that concept, you understand the ntr. Also, if speculation is right concerning the kemetic language being a pidgin language or lingua franca, it would explain why one word like ntr was used to describe any and everything "divine" be they prophets, angels or the Deity.
Last time I checked the Ntr numbered far greater than 99. As far as I'm aware of ntr is not used to describe mortal people like prophets, and I don't think the Egyptians had 'angels' either.
*chuckle* oh
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Exactly!!! Simple logic. Indigenous Arabs and . . .Southern Persians must be black skin and similar to East Africans. 1. The Global UV distribution proves that 2. The map of indigenous peoples of the world prior to 1900"s shows that 3. Genetic distribution of hg-E (ie PN2) also shows clear demic diffusion.
Only an ignorant, uneducated person will suggestion otherwise.
Of course peoples of Arabia and Southern Persia are black and carry African lineage. Geographically it makes sense.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Dana is correct.. . Arabia lies right next to Africa and shares the same latitudes as Egypt, Sudan, and the Horn.
I have to agree with Mike now. Many of the rulers of the modern middle east are imposters.. . .or at least an admixture of black people and invaders.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Exactly!!! Simple logic. Indigenous Arabs and . . .Southern Persians must be black skin and similar to East Africans. 1. The Global UV distribution proves that 2. The map of indigenous peoples of the world prior to 1900"s shows that 3. Genetic distribution of hg-E (ie PN2) also shows clear demic diffusion.
Only an ignorant, uneducated person will suggestion otherwise.
Of course peoples of Arabia and Southern Persia are black and carry African lineage. Geographically it makes sense.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Dana is correct.. . Arabia lies right next to Africa and shares the same latitudes as Egypt, Sudan, and the Horn.
I have to agree with Mike now. Many of the rulers of the modern middle east are imposters.. . .or at least an admixture of black people and invaders.
obviously the people of Arabia and the Arab world are not just "black". they are descendants of many people. saying the people that first called themselves Arabs were black is not saying anything about what modern Arabs are.
All i am saying is that some of the original Arab peoples are still in the peninsula. Their ancestors are those who called themselves Arabs and said an Arab with fair skin would be "inconceivable" or probably jokingly an Arab with fair skin is "one of the 7 rare wonders of the world".
Obviously things have changed.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Southwest Arabia During the Holocene: Recent Archaeological Developments.
Abstract Recent fieldwork has considerably increased our knowledge of early Holocene settlement in Southwest Arabia. Neolithic settlement occurred within an environmental context of increased monsoonal moisture that continued during the mid-Holocene. A now well-attested Bronze Age exemplified by village- and town-scale settlements occupied by sedentary farmers developed toward the end of the mid-Holocene moist interval. The high plateau of Yemen was an early focus for the development of Bronze Age complex society, the economy of which relied upon terraced rain-fed and runoff agriculture. On the fringes of the Arabian desert, the precursors of the Sabaean literate civilization have been traced back to between 3600 and 2800 B.P., and even earlier, so that a virtually continuous archaeological record can now be described for parts of Yemen. In contrast to the highlands these societies relied upon food production from large-scale irrigation systems dependent upon capricious wadi floods. Bronze Age settlement, while showing some links with the southern Levant, now shows equal or stronger linkages with the Horn of Africa across the Red Sea. Although some regions of Yemen show breaks in occupation, others show continuity into the Sabaean period when a series of major towns grew up in response to the incense trade with the north. It is now clear that these civilizations grew up on the foundations of earlier Bronze Age complex societies.
Great Patrol - It looks like I will have to start subscribing to some of these journals. I wonder which culture in the southern Levant this Afro-Arabian civilization was tied to. The Ghassulian or Neolithic B?
Undoubtedly it will come to pass that this civilization is one of the greatest of the early AFro-Asiatic civilization from which spread early Afro-Asiatic speakers and perhaps other African cultures (Nilo-Saharan?) to the Levant and Mesopotamia.
The tides have certainly turned in respect to African historiography.
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posted
Here is a coin of the Roman Emperor Phillip The Arab, born in Arabia. Notice his beard and hair is that of a full African. During his tenure c. 244 AD, the term did not convey the present day image of white skinned or lighter skinned desert people.
quote:Originally posted by jantavanta: Here is a coin of the Roman Emperor Phillip The Arab, born in Arabia. Notice his beard and hair is that of a full African. During his tenure c. 244 AD, the term did not convey the present day image of white skinned or lighter skinned desert people.
To me this looks like a typical big-boned Roman and it was not uncommon for individual rulers in Roman portrait busts, sculpture and coins from different ethnicities to be portrayed similarly. His statue looks even more Roman.
Philip, however, was supposedly from the Banu Ghassan of the Azd a Yemeni tribe described as black both in early and medieval times, like the rest of the Azd. He was actually born in Syria.
Thus Ibn Manzour 14th century said of the Ghassan when "one speaks of them as akhdar (green) it refers to their blackness." and says "kinky hair is the kind of hair most Arabs have".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by claus3600: My reading on Ancient Egypt has linked to several related topics, the latest one being the presence of Africans in Arabia.
Given that the crossing from Eritrea/Djibouti into Yemen was the OOA migration route, it would seem that these would have been the first and original Arabians. I understand that there would have been further waves of Africans making the crossing, and that there would have been contact between Africans on both sides of the Red Sea.
However, on the question of whether today's black Yemenis are indigenous, the response is that they are the descendants of slaves.
Can anyone shed any light on/provide a link to an old thread on whether today's black Yemenis are the descendants of slaves or whether they are indigenous?
Book recommendations would also be appreciated.
Many blacks in Yemen in the Persian Gulf are from recent slaves, while many others are descended from the only pure Arabs that existed 1000 years ago - the near black and kinky haired ones. Descendants of the original black Arabs are found throughout the peninsula.
Tihama
The land of Tihama is known as Kush in the Bible and in certain later Arab texts like those of Ibn Mudjawir.
“Whether original Arabian Kushite tribes migrated into eastern Africa and gave their name to the land, or African Kushites migrated into Arabia, in the biblical view the peoples on either side of the Red Sea were regarded as of the same Kushite stock.” P. 19 The Curse of Ham David Goldenberg, 2005.
The skeletal evidence of ancient Arabia was nearly identical to that representative of populations of Nubia and ancient Egypt. lets not forget that.
Ibn Khaldun didn't call the Arabian region the second zone of Sudan for nothing. Ibn Manzour didn't say most Arabs are "dark brown" or black and "kinky haired" for nothing. Jahiz didn't say all of the tribes of the harra were black like the lava for nothing.
BTW - al-harra is a 15,000 kilometer region extending from southern Syria into Saudi Arabia past Medina.
The speakers of the Himyarite dialects who are primarily black are not descendants of slaves they are the people that brought the semitic dialects into the Near East and their dialects and culture is still clearly of ancient semitic origin.
For millenia they were the only Arabs in existence.
The Himyarites or Sabaeans were the people who became the semites and canaanites of the Hebrew texts -
“The Himyarites are mentioned in classical literature under the name of Homerites. They traced their origin to himyar, grandson of Saba and descendant of Joktan or Kahtan, one of the mythical ancestors of the Arabs. According to their traditions, they became the dominant race in Yemen about 3,000 years before the time of Mohammed… Direct descendants of the Himyarites are the tribes of Mahrah. They are black in color, medium in stature, Semitic in countenance…” (1873) The American Cyclopaedia; A popular dictionary of general Knowledge, Volume 8, p. 734)
Many of the bedouin Arabs of Jordan are also not descended from slaves but remnants of the Nabataeans and of the Harra spoken of by Jahiz, Dhahabi and others.
Many bedouin in Arabia in the north and central regions are still black
Groups like the Huwaytat still living in Sinai and Jordan claim descent from the Nabataeans i.e. Kedarites.
The phrase black Nabataeans was in use until a very late period. Complaining about the Abbasids who had taken over Islam, an early Imam named Reza (d. 9th century) wrote "the black Nabatis have undertaken their ministries".
The Nabataeans were typical of the northern Arab or so-called Adnanite Ishmaelite populations.
In early Islamic times the phrase "fair-skinned resembling like a slave" was in use among the Arabs because as Ibn Manzur and Jahiz said "the Arabs attribute fair-skin to the slaves".
However with reference again to the Yemen or southern Arabia, the real Arabs came from the Qahtan, Kahlan people (Himyarites, Azd) etc. They are represented by the Mahra and Shahara and other tribes that look similar to east Africans.
Mahra man
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In early Islamic times the phrase "fair-skinned resembling like a slave" was in use among the Arabs because as Ibn Manzur and Jahiz said "the Arabs attribute fair-skin to the slaves".
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
In early Islamic times the phrase "fair-skinned resembling like a slave" was in use among the Arabs because as Ibn Manzur and Jahiz said "the Arabs attribute fair-skin to the slaves".
this is a fair skinned man:
_________________________________________
and so is this.
And this to an Arab was also a fair-skinned man "fair-skinned resembling the slaves captured from the Syrians and Persians" Siyar al Nubhala of Al Dhahabi of Syria 14th century AD.
Fair-skinned equaled looking like a Syrian and Iranian i.e. a SLAVE- for early Arabs. As also a Byzantine blond. I am sure for the Arabs they all looked alike anyway.
BTW - Don't put words in Dhahabi's mouth.
See the difference Dummy?!
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to an Arab was also a fair-skinned man "fair-skinned resembling the slaves captured from the Syrians and Persians" Siyar al Nubhala of Al Dhahabi of Syria 14th century AD.
there are a variety of skin tones in Syria. The man above has medium light skin
there are a variety of skin tones in Iran. The man above has light skin
dana, stop being stupid none of the above three people is fair skinned to Arabs at any time, you are bullshitting to cover your ass In other words, all three are black according to the ancient writers. -and don't try to switch up with new photos, deal with these three or go back in the corner and be quiet
posted
Dana, The capital of abyan province in southern yemen is called zinjibar i.e. coast of the zinj (zanj). Do you know anything about how the capital got it's name?
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quote:Originally posted by africurious: Dana, The capital of abyan province in southern yemen is called zinjibar i.e. coast of the zinj (zanj). Do you know anything about how the capital got it's name?
Not sure how Zinjibar got its name but do know that Abyan or Abna is a name that means "Persians" and it is likely the Persians settled in that part of the Yemen who referred to the town as Zanj. Zanj was also their name for the Tzinganes or "gypsies", people of Indonesia and the early black people of Persia "followers of Azh Dhahhak/Zohakk" whom they "pushed into the sea". It is also possible that it is a port in which Africans or other blacks were brought to by the Persians settled who had been settled there since the 6th and 7th centuries.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche
to an Arab was also a fair-skinned man "fair-skinned resembling the slaves captured from the Syrians and Persians" Siyar al Nubhala of Al Dhahabi of Syria 14th century AD.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
this is a fair skinned man:
dana, stop being stupid none of the above three people is fair skinned to Arabs at any time, you are bullshitting to cover your ass In other words, all three are black according to the ancient writers. -
No, but that is your wish and hope and dream that Arabs and Berbers when referred to as "blacks" were only swarthy whites and that you could be related to Shaharazade from the Shahara tribe and not a beautiful black or near black Habeshi or Ethiopian woman.
Shahara and Keturah children whose gracile bones and refined symmetrical features are literally nowhere to be found on your Neanderdummy kind..
Tuareg - this woman is as big as you perhaps, but you certainly don't have her beautiful bronze brown color now do you.
A beautiful asmar colored woman from Eritrea whose complexion you will never possess
Jealous, Neanderwoman, go away with your lies and distortions - as you will never be like us.
By the way was that a relative you posted above with the white hair and face? Just wondering.
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Romans and Syrians i.e. people from the Levant and those who look like them are not black except in Sweden and the mind of some Afronut.
According to the Syrian writers black people were black - not Syrians. Just because ones ancestors settled in North Africa and got a little mixed with Africans doesn't make you black.
But I guess when you are very dark purple and living in Africa you can consider yourself as such, even if you've gotten a little mixed with something else.
Now we know what Chinese manuscripts meant when they said the people 300 miles surrounding Mecca spreading to Jiddah were of a "very dark purple" color.
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The Neanderdulls and many people who mixed with the Neanderdull Eurasian people have been psychologically warped when it comes to their dealings with blacks. I will have to agree with Mike on that. Such people even got to the point of killing black Arabs and kicking them out so they could put themselves in their place, mostly out of resentment and jealousy - as usual.
The Abbasid told the Hashemites the clan of Prophet to go back to the Hijaz and "resume eating lizards" and they proceeded to pretend they were the pure Arabs and all the real ones were non-existent.
This reminds me somewhat of what goes on in North Africa. Where any black Berber is now a non Berber. The distortion is really borderline psycho.
Why would Rumi say what he did if the Abbasids -mainly people of Persian,Greco-Roman and Turkish ancestry - were not holding blackness in contempt.
"You insulted (the family of the Prophet) because of their blackness (bi-l-sawad), while there are still deep black, pure-blooded Arabs. However, you are white – the Romans (Byzantines) have embellished your faces with their color. The color of the family of Hashim was not a bodily defect."
And we wonder why under the Abbasids it was written anyone who says the prophet is black should be killed. never mind the black Quraishis were existing in that time and in fact still do.
While their descendants in Iraq the Saidis are taunted with the label "abid".
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche
to an Arab was also a fair-skinned man "fair-skinned resembling the slaves captured from the Syrians and Persians" Siyar al Nubhala of Al Dhahabi of Syria 14th century AD.
Sorry but a tanned Albanian or Slovakian does not a black man make. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
In early Islamic times the phrase "fair-skinned resembling like a slave" was in use among the Arabs because as Ibn Manzur and Jahiz said "the Arabs attribute fair-skin to the slaves".
[
Yes everyone knows some of us got a little mixed up with the Neander, but it wasn't always their fault - the Neanderdull's that is. What with all that attraction to blond hair and all.
This was probably considered "white mixed with red". Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ LMAO @ the Lyinass spinning her yarn of lies.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Romans and Syrians i.e. people from the Levant and those who look like them are not black except in Sweden and the mind of some Afronut.
According to the Syrian writers black people were black - not Syrians. Just because ones ancestors settled in North Africa and got a little mixed with Africans doesn't make you black.
But I guess when you are very dark purple and living in Africa you can consider yourself as such, even if you've gotten a little mixed with something else.
Now we know what Chinese manuscripts meant when they said the people 300 miles surrounding Mecca spreading to Jiddah were of a "very dark purple" color.
Actually, during the Iron Age the Greeks themselves distinguished a recent 'Leuko-Syrian' people that moved into Syria. Leuko-Syrian literally means 'White Syrians' different from the indigenous people who were darker. After these, came various fair-skinned groups from the Mitanni to the Gimmeri (Cimmerians) to even some Sycthians and other north Iranians. It is no wonder why the Syrians proper represent the fairest i.e. 'whitest' Arabs in the entire Middle East.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LMAO @ the Lyinass spinning her yarn of lies.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Romans and Syrians i.e. people from the Levant and those who look like them are not black except in Sweden and the mind of some Afronut.
According to the Syrian writers black people were black - not Syrians. Just because ones ancestors settled in North Africa and got a little mixed with Africans doesn't make you black.
But I guess when you are very dark purple and living in Africa you can consider yourself as such, even if you've gotten a little mixed with something else.
Now we know what Chinese manuscripts meant when they said the people 300 miles surrounding Mecca spreading to Jiddah were of a "very dark purple" color.
Actually, during the Iron Age the Greeks themselves distinguished a recent 'Leuko-Syrian' people that moved into Syria. Leuko-Syrian literally means 'White Syrians' different from the indigenous people who were darker. After these, came various fair-skinned groups from the Mitanni to the Gimmeri (Cimmerians) to even some Sycthians and other north Iranians. It is no wonder why the Syrians proper represent the fairest i.e. 'whitest' Arabs in the entire Middle East.
The Greeks actually distinguished Leuko-Syrians from black Syrians or Phoenicians/Philistines/Meluch (Amalek) who were probably closely related to the people of Wadhi Medani and later Medes. I doubt whether the white Syrians they were talking about were newcomers to the area though.
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^ LOL Quit with the stupid ass lies already! Black does NOT mean tan or slightly dark white person. The ancient writers were clear what the word black or melanos or maure meant and they did not mean "tans" as many Greeks and Italians themselves had a tan complexion you dumb b|tch. Even your selective pic of a light-skinned Berber man does not represent the ancient Berbers whom the Europeans I just mentioned encountered. GTFOH, trick! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Quit with the stupid ass lies already! Black does NOT mean tan or slightly dark white person. The ancient writers were clear what the word black or melanos or maure meant and they did not mean "tans" as many Greeks and Italians themselves had a tan complexion you dumb b|tch. Even your selective pic of a light-skinned Berber man does not represent the ancient Berbers whom the Europeans I just mentioned encountered. GTFOH, trick!
piece of shit, I didn't say that black meant "tan or slightly dark white person". The man below is substanically dark not "slightly dark" asshole. He is as dark as many Africans are so cease the bull. Africans as well as non-Africans may have dark skin, live in high sun regions and appear brown for all thir lives regardless of if you want to apply this word "tan" to them, the men below are a medium brown color not a tan color as is sand and they appear this way for their whole life. Relative to themselves ancient European writers termed these people black. Similarly Barack Obama, as are many American blacks, is not that dark skinned but still regarded as "black". It is only when we discover is ancestry that we find out he is technically "mulatto" (a term that the ancient writers did not use) And the term "black" is even used by some European writers to include various non or semi African people up into later periods as well and is well documented. But to you only a "true Negro" is black
^^^ you see this, both men are substancially dark , You are trying run a silly paper bag test now and you don't even have the credentials, not to mention they would pass that test. No you don't really understand dana's motives
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Even your selective pic of a light-skinned Berber man does not represent the ancient Berbers whom the Europeans I just mentioned encountered.
That is nonsense are you going to tell us that the person above is not Black ?? (are you going to argue he's admixted?) -who with a Phoenician, Vandal or Roman many centuries prior to al-Andalus?
Originally posted by alTakruri:
^^^^ Again, as you have been shown numerous times Libyan Berbers from the tomb of Rameses III, 3000 + years ago
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: To most Americans "black" means people with dark skin, afros and broad features. To ancient writers "black" meant soley dark in complextion
like these men
Except that Romans were darker than this guy.
Sorry, Aswad doesn't mean swarthy white man. Black means black in Arabic.
Syrians said Arabs attributed their skin color "to the slaves".
You lose. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Wow - the original paint on this guy was a lot darker brown than I thought.
Wonder if that's why the Neanderdummys choose to blur these photos out.
I notice you like to post these Libyans alot Neanderwoman. Do you like dark chocolate or something, most women do. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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