Anyway, I don't know why this person is doing this constantly.
This person claims to be an African American woman of West African descent. But the patterns clearly show that this individual is lying.
At first I wondered why people reacted to this person the way they did and do. So, I gave it the benefit of the doubt. After a year I have come to the conclusion that this person indeed is a fraud, an impostor.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL And the Lyinass worm again gets busted!
It seems she is trying to 'lighten up' the Moorish invasion of Europe so to speak by making the black presence less than it really was.
Funny how the actual topic of this thread is not even about the Moorish invasion of Europe but of Moorish homelands in the Maghgreb in relation to other Africans further south, yet she manages to interject her silly lies anyway.
Hyacinthe Rigaud,
I don't know the date of this masterpiece.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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^ Thanks for clearing this up Jari. Another of the worm's lies busted.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jari argues that the armies used by the Umayyad to conquer Iberia were primarily white slaves.
The Umayyad rulers were Arabs neither white or black. They considered themselves superior to both the Christian European whites and black Africans. Some black Africans choose to convert to Islam. Coverts had secondary status to the Arab rulers, below that were Jews and Christians. By 900 al-Andulus was comprised of about 25% Muslims, the rest Christian and 5% jews.
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Silent ones were not Africans but Slavs, Germanics and Englishmen..
-The Great Upheaval: America and the Birth of the Modern World, 1788-1800 By Jay Winik
Majority of the slaves in Andalus were white.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
More from your source, Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988:
Everyone in the armies of Andalus were not slaves. In fact most were not. That is a bit of an over statement. And of those often referred to as slaves, many were mercenaries. Most of the armies in Andalus were either made up by troops of the various Berber groups, various Syrian or Arab groups or local native levies called up from the Muslim populations of various towns. And among all of these troops you had various ethnic groups. There were white Europeans who became Islamic rules, as in some of the Visigothic kings who invited in the Muslims. There were Africans from across North and West Africa. There were Arabians and Syrians along with Egyptians and other groups. The Islamic population was mixed. And texts from early on in the Islamic occupation distinguish between them very clearly:
For example the Mozaribic Chronicle of 754:
quote: Despite the expressions of horror at the invasion, what is perhaps surprising is that the chroniclers attitude to the Moors is generally even handed. Musa and one or two others are heavily criticised, but others are praised for bringing peace to the land. Perhaps this is because the chronicler does not evaluate the leaders in religious terms, but according to their contribution to political life. Nor does he question their legitimacy as governors. The chronicler also refrains from talking about the invaders religion, and does not call them Muslims, or infidels or pagans; rather he refers to them in ethnic terms: Arabs (Arabes), Moors (Mauri), Saracens (Saraceni).
Therefore the idea that people didn't recognize various ethnic groups among the Muslim invaders and just lumped them all together is pure nonsense. This is especially true considering that the mistreatment of the Berbers(Mauri) caused no end of ethnic strife in Al Andalus and much of the destruction wrought on the kingdom was due to these internal battles between the Berber groups and various other Arab/Syrian/Spanish Muslim clans along with other Berber groups. Read some of the texts from the period and you will see why the Muslims were often engaged in asking for help from Christians against other Muslims, which theoretically should be a cardinal sin in Islam. Hence the portraits showing the Christians asking Muslims for aid against other Christians and supporting the Muslims against other Muslims.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: Read some of the texts from the period and you will see why the Muslims were often engaged in asking for help from Christians against other Muslims, which theoretically should be a cardinal sin in Islam. Hence the portraits showing the Christians asking Muslims for aid against other Christians and supporting the Muslims against other Muslims.
This was borne out by Rodrigo de Vivar who collected an alliance between Christian and Muslim Iberians,while checking up on some info on the make-up of his forces I found this is from wiki but here goes.. El Cid went on to command a Moorish force consisting of Muladis, Berbers, Arabs and Malians, under Yusuf al-Mu'taman ibn Hud, Moorish king of the northeast Al-Andalus city of Zaragoza, and his successor, Al-Mustain II.
While it is possible that Malians were involved I have never heard anyone specify them as one of the power brokers in Iberia,anyone got further info?? I mean if anything wouldn't be more likely that they would be allies with the Almoravid? and isen't this the same Abu Bakr This guy^ Al Takruri
quote:BTW Yusuf ibn Tashifin completed the founding of Murakush (Marrakesh) finishing the work began by Abu Bakr ibn Umar
quote: Read some of the texts from the period and you will see why the Muslims were often engaged in asking for help from Christians against other Muslims, which theoretically should be a cardinal sin in Islam. Hence the portraits showing the Christians asking Muslims for aid against other Christians and supporting the Muslims against other Muslims.
This was borne out by Rodrigo de Vivar who collected an alliance between Christian and Muslim Iberians,while checking up on some info on the make-up of his forces I found this is from wiki but here goes.. El Cid went on to command a Moorish force consisting of Muladis, Berbers, Arabs and Malians, under Yusuf al-Mu'taman ibn Hud, Moorish king of the northeast Al-Andalus city of Zaragoza, and his successor, Al-Mustain II.
While it is possible that Malians were involved I have never heard anyone specify them as one of the power brokers in Iberia,anyone got further info?? I mean if anything wouldn't be more likely that they would be allies with the Almoravid? and isen't this the same Abu Bakr This guy^ Al Takruri
quote:BTW Yusuf ibn Tashifin completed the founding of Murakush (Marrakesh) finishing the work began by Abu Bakr ibn Umar
At various points in time, different African groups had contingents among the Islamic armies in Spain. And the West African contingent very likely became more prominent in the time of the Almoravids, even though some may have been there prior as mercenaries, auxiliaries of the Berbers or Slave troops.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Show me any where that I made such a comment that the armies used by the Umayyad were white. You are such dishonest Peice of turd its almost pathetic.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Jari argues that the armies used by the Umayyad to conquer Iberia were primarily white slaves.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Show me anywhere where I said majority of the Armies in Andalus were slaves. You have a habit of taking the word of a troll with weight when it comes to me. This is not the first time either where you tried to correct me based off a troll's rumor, you are pathetic.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Everyone in the armies of Andalus were not slaves. In fact most were not. That is a bit of an over statement.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: I found this is from wiki but here goes.. El Cid went on to command a Moorish force consisting of Muladis, Berbers, Arabs and Malians, under Yusuf al-Mu'taman ibn Hud, Moorish king of the northeast Al-Andalus city of Zaragoza, and his successor, Al-Mustain II.
While it is possible that Malians were involved I have never heard anyone specify them as one of the power brokers in Iberia,anyone got further info?? I mean if anything wouldn't be more likely that they would be allies with the Almoravid? and isen't this the same Abu Bakr
This guy^ Al Takruri
quote:BTW Yusuf ibn Tashifin completed the founding of Murakush (Marrakesh) finishing the work began by Abu Bakr ibn Umar
But seriously the name Abu Bakr is one of the names favored by WA Muslims. It's variant Bubacar may be the most common and Abubakari is the variant that mansa Gonga Musa's predecessor used. There're more.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Show me any where that I made such a comment that the armies used by the Umayyad were white. You are such dishonest Peice of turd its almost pathetic.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Jari argues that the armies used by the Umayyad to conquer Iberia were primarily white slaves.
Typical M.O. of the lyinass is to distort the words of others. Of course most people are not stupid enough to fall for it. Everyone knows the vast majority of the soldiers who invaded Iberia were not even slaves but Africans and Arabs. The vast majority of white slaves in Islamic times were found in the northern regions of the 'Near East' namely the Levant, Syria, Iraq, and Turkey. These slave soldiers were the Mamluks who later rebelled and installed themselves as rulers.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Thanks Al-Takruri but you know with this ol rebirth thing ya never know..
But the timing and the era made a nice fit of an important visitor to the court of Mali with the same name as one of the Kings of that era, we really need a thread on African royals as detailed as threads on Euro-royals..and I am not throwing stones here,just that it would be a good thing to do perhaps helping prevent mistakes like I did above.. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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More from your source, Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988: [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Silent ones were not Africans but Slavs, Germanics and Englishmen..
-The Great Upheaval: America and the Birth of the Modern World, 1788-1800 By Jay Winik
Majority of the slaves in Andalus were white.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
This is not the first time either where you (Doug) tried to correct me based off a troll's rumor, you are pathetic
Doug is only looking at the context of your remarks and making a reasonable assumption. I started off using dana's source with a book reference that talks about military slaves.
Your reply to this was: "Majority of the slaves in Andalus were white"
How can you blame Doug for assuming that when I had been discussing miltary slaves in your reply you quoted this text and your reply was "Majority of the slaves in Andalus were white". Therefore it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the majority of military slaves, the topic being discussed, were white. You made no indication that there was a change of topic to non-military slaves.
I demand you apologize to Doug for your confused unclear, topic switching replies.
The fact is that Moorish Spain was an imperialist Islamic military project employing black and white and in between soldiers lead by non-African Arabs whose culture came from Mecca, later influenced by Bagdad, this leadership who saw their ethnicity and religion as superior to people indigenous to Africa. Many Africans seeing the power of the Islamic conquest descided if you can't beat them join them and coverted to Islam. Islam is not ATR (this indigenous history is lost to the various Abrahamic invasions- see pre Isalmic Songhai tradition) This is no different than Mike and Egmond bowing down to conquerers rooted outside Africa. Yes, if you convert, there will be rewards, maybe even sainthood for those who abandon their "pagan" ways. you are walking with the religious apologists and don't realize it.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Show me anywhere where I said majority of the Armies in Andalus were slaves. You have a habit of taking the word of a troll with weight when it comes to me. This is not the first time either where you tried to correct me based off a troll's rumor, you are pathetic.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Everyone in the armies of Andalus were not slaves. In fact most were not. That is a bit of an over statement.
I am actually referring to your citation. My point being that some authors over emphasize slavery in Islamic Spain.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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You are such a worm its almost pathetic. Nothing in my citation said anything about Majority of the Andalucian Armies being slaves, hell it did not even say majority of Andalucians were slaves.
What happened is you took the words of a troll and tried to correct me on something I never said. If this were the first time I would have just chalked it up to Ignorance, but you have done this before so Im calling you out.
So..
Quote anywhere in My reference/citation where it is suggested that majority of the anducian armies were slaves since you failed to accomplish my first request.
Any more lying and snake behavior will only dig yourself deeper expose you for what you are
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Show me anywhere where I said majority of the Armies in Andalus were slaves. You have a habit of taking the word of a troll with weight when it comes to me. This is not the first time either where you tried to correct me based off a troll's rumor, you are pathetic.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Everyone in the armies of Andalus were not slaves. In fact most were not. That is a bit of an over statement.
I am actually referring to your citation. My point being that some authors over emphasize slavery in Islamic Spain.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You are such a worm its almost pathetic. Nothing in my citation said anything about Majority of the Andalucian Armies being slaves, hell it did not even say majority of Andalucians were slaves.
What happened is you took the words of a troll and tried to correct me on something I never said. If this were the first time I would have just chalked it up to Ignorance, but you have done this before so Im calling you out.
So..
Quote anywhere in My reference/citation where it is suggested that majority of the anducian armies were slaves since you failed to accomplish my first request.
Any more lying and snake behavior will only dig yourself deeper expose you for what you are
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Show me anywhere where I said majority of the Armies in Andalus were slaves. You have a habit of taking the word of a troll with weight when it comes to me. This is not the first time either where you tried to correct me based off a troll's rumor, you are pathetic.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Everyone in the armies of Andalus were not slaves. In fact most were not. That is a bit of an over statement.
I am actually referring to your citation. My point being that some authors over emphasize slavery in Islamic Spain.
Come on man.
Read our own citation. The only time it mentions blacks is in reference to slavery. Maybe you weren't paying attention when you posted it.
That is what I am talking about. Maybe you should take time and read your own citations because many of the old references on Islamic Spain often use this subtle tactic of associating blacks with slavery. And more to the point it makes the conclusion that the military slaves were the key to Umayyad power. There are other more modern sources that don't put as much emphasis on military slaves as the basis for Umayyad rule in Spain.
This has nothing to do with reacting to trolls.
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^ Guys, let's remember who the real lyingass worm is, and right now she is probably sitting back laughing at the discord she has caused. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Read our own citation. The only time it mentions blacks is in reference to slavery. Maybe you weren't paying attention when you posted it.
You are so feeble minded and set out to target me you have yet to realize that the above is NOT my citation, but was the citation of the troll I was responding to.
Simple logic dictates that my comment about the "Silent Ones" being Germanics and Slavs contradicts the notion in that citation about the Silent Ones being "Abdeed" or Blacks.
Simple logic which you obviously don't have. A brain dead fake internet radical is what you are.
quote:That is what I am talking about. Maybe you should take time and read your own citations
Maybe you should take time to realize who that citation belongs to.
quote:because many of the old references on Islamic Spain often use this subtle tactic of associating blacks with slavery.
Im one of the main people on here who sheds light on to the fact that whites and Asiatics were a main source of slave labor at least until the 18th century. Even so I clearly made the remark that "Majority of the slaves in Andalus were whites" yet your clown illiterate arse assumes I would post a citation from 1988 with some White Supremist crap that only mentions blacks when slavery is in the sentence.
quote:And more to the point it makes the conclusion that the military slaves were the key to Umayyad power. There are other more modern sources that don't put as much emphasis on military slaves as the basis for Umayyad rule in Spain.
Again try telling that to the person who provided the citation.
quote:This has nothing to do with reacting to trolls.
Just as braindead as ever, Keep digging your grave you fake, keep your head in the sand liar.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Read our own citation. The only time it mentions blacks is in reference to slavery. Maybe you weren't paying attention when you posted it.
You are so feeble minded and set out to target me you have yet to realize that the above is NOT my citation, but was the citation of the troll I was responding to.
Simple logic dictates that my comment about the "Silent Ones" being Germanics and Slavs contradicts the notion in that citation about the Silent Ones being "Abdeed" or Blacks.
Simple logic which you obviously don't have. A brain dead fake internet radical is what you are.
quote:That is what I am talking about. Maybe you should take time and read your own citations
Maybe you should take time to realize who that citation belongs to.
quote:because many of the old references on Islamic Spain often use this subtle tactic of associating blacks with slavery.
Im one of the main people on here who sheds light on to the fact that whites and Asiatics were a main source of slave labor at least until the 18th century. Even so I clearly made the remark that "Majority of the slaves in Andalus were whites" yet your clown illiterate arse assumes I would post a citation from 1988 with some White Supremist crap that only mentions blacks when slavery is in the sentence.
quote:And more to the point it makes the conclusion that the military slaves were the key to Umayyad power. There are other more modern sources that don't put as much emphasis on military slaves as the basis for Umayyad rule in Spain.
Again try telling that to the person who provided the citation.
quote:This has nothing to do with reacting to trolls.
Just as braindead as ever, Keep digging your grave you fake, keep your head in the sand liar.
You know what. I totally missed that.... LOL!
I was reading too fast.
That said my point still stands. Most of the armies in Andalus were not slaves, white or black. And you are absolutely correct that many of the Slaves in Andalus were white and specifically slavic which is the basis of the word slave.
But there was indeed a caste system of sorts by which certain groups in Andalus were treated better than others and that certainly had a lot to do with why there was so much conflict.
As for your ranting... well, just stick to the point. You could have simply said that the citation wasn't yours and been done with it. Stick to the facts man. As long as I have been on this board and having debates with trolls about Islamic Spain you certainly have not shed light on a whole lot and certainly not any light for me anyway, but I admit my mistake....
Now with that out of the way lets get back to the topic.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Next time try reading before opening your filthy mouth.
ad please what the f-k have you "shed light" on reguarding the Andalus.
This should be a future warning to everyone on the board on your snake/worm tactics.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Jari save me the insults. I mean if you really were such a heavy weight with your knowledge you wouldn't start a thread openly dedicated to a discussion of a known clown troll as some form of "real debate" and enlightening discussion. At this point all you have is 2 pages worth of diversion from the point which is the North South relationship between the Maghreb and Sudan.
Please. All you do is entertain these fools and then have the nerve to sit up there and pretend you are dropping so much "wisdom" on everyone.
Of course you can do what you like but don't pretend that entertaining trolls represents "real debate" because it isn't.
We all make mistakes so cut the crap.
Where is all this info on the topic of the thread you are supposed to be providing?
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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And on the topic again, the North South relationship between the Maghreb and Sudan was established thousands of years prior to any Arabs on African soil. That is the first point that has to be made before all others. That relationship extends back to the first inhabitants of Africa who migrated from the South to the Northern Shores of Africa and across the oceans and deserts into the rest of the world.
The primary factor determining the flow of populations in and around Northern Africa has always been the ebb and flow of the Sahara desert. And this has been called the pump that pushed populations to migrate since very ancient times. These populations that moved in and out of the regions were called by different names at different times but were all black Africans. And you still have many relics and artifacts from the Sahara itself that provides evidence for this. It is also from this backdrop that many of the later civilizations and cultures derive from. In the East you have the Nile Valley cultures that partly derived from the movement of Saharan populations to the river valleys. In the center you have the movements to the North and the creation of various settled kingdoms that have largely been covered by desert in what were once lush savannahs. In the West you have the creation of settlements like Dar Tichitt and others which flourished and were based on trade.
Trade was always a key factor in the economies and lives of these people across Africa as can be seen from East to West. In the East, there was always a North South trade that is easily seen in Egyptian artwork. The same can be presumed from the cultures of the Middle Sahara and of course the cultures of Tichitt and the Niger River Valley as well.
As a result of the expansion of the Sahara most of the populations in the Sahara became pastoral nomads. This tradition of pastoral nomadism predates any Arab arrival to the region. Pastoral nomadism is inherently mobile and often depends on trade with various settled populations for its sustenance. It is that lifestyle and the cultures that adopted it that became the basis for many later cultures that were in the region during Roman and later Arab entry into the area. These are the cultures that gave rise to the ancestors of the Tuareg, Peuhl, Fulani, Beja and other groups who are known to have traversed the area between the Sahara and the Sahel. It is also from these populations in the East that the Berber languages were born and moved to the North via the nomadic migrations.
At the time of the Arab conquest most of the economies in the region were still based on trade with the South. And this trade was particularly important in the West as it was the gold from Ghana and other areas that helped financed the rise of the Islamic empires in the regions to the North. Not to mention that much of this trade also included commodities and other stuffs to numerous to mention. But any look at the maps of the old caravan routes of the Sahara from the early to Middle Islamic eras makes it clear that trade with the south was a key to these kingdoms.
In addition to trade these caravan routes carried many distinctly African traditions found among the Africans who converted to Islam. The most strongest ties in culture are found along these routes. It is no surprise then that the groups with the strongest cultural ties to the African cultures of the Sahara are the West Africans. For example the tradition of wearing veils and indigo robes extends deep into Nigeria. This tradition is only identified with the African peoples not the "Arabs" of the North. One of the reasons for the strong relationship between the two is due to the fact that the indigo textiles originated in the cities and towns of West Africa. And this is but one example of such cultural ties. These ties not only go North to South but also East to West as well.
And since we are discussing the trade routes of the Sahara, we must also discuss camels. Africa has the largest camel population in the World. Even though the camel is not considered native to Africa, it is now dominant in desert regions to the North. And the pastoral nomadic African groups are the key players in the breeding of African camels. It is no coincidence the the main breeding centers in Africa are at and along the key junctures of the old caravan routes. Most of the key breeding areas are in the South. The biggest populations of Camels are in Somalia, Sudan and then Ethiopia. If you look at the photos of the large camel markets across North Africa you will always see a strong black African presence attesting to the role of the Southern groups in this trade.
quote: Today the dromedary is found in substantial numbers in the following African countries: Algeria, Chad, Djibouti, Egypt, Ethiopia, Kenya, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia, Upper Volta and West Sahara. It is noteworthy that the five neighbouring countries of Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Kenya and Djibouti together contain 84% of African camels and over half (60.1%) the world's camel population, while Africa as a whole contains 72%. In northern Kenya as in some other areas, however, numbers are declining, since the camel is being replaced by other domestic species.
posted
^ Wow I had no idea Ibn Rush was portrayed that way. I've always assumed he was much lighter i.e. modern stereotyped Arab. Anyway...
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You know what. I totally missed that.... LOL!
I was reading too fast.
That said my point still stands. Most of the armies in Andalus were not slaves, white or black. And you are absolutely correct that many of the Slaves in Andalus were white and specifically slavic which is the basis of the word slave.
But there was indeed a caste system of sorts by which certain groups in Andalus were treated better than others and that certainly had a lot to do with why there was so much conflict.
As for your ranting... well, just stick to the point. You could have simply said that the citation wasn't yours and been done with it. Stick to the facts man. As long as I have been on this board and having debates with trolls about Islamic Spain you certainly have not shed light on a whole lot and certainly not any light for me anyway, but I admit my mistake....
Now with that out of the way lets get back to the topic.
I hope this comes as a lesson to be careful what you read and attribute to posters but more importantly not allow trolls to confuse or distract.
To Jari, the foul language against Doug is not necessary, though I understand the frustration. The only worm here is the Lyinass troll!
By the way, abid in Arabic simply means slave and is NOT an epithet for 'black', though unfortunately it is used as such today. As you and Doug have pointed out most of the slaves during Moorish times were in fact WHITE Christian slaves some from Germany but most from Slavic eastern Europe. The ones deployed as soldiers were the Mamluks who later rebelled and banned the slave trade of their European brethren but turned the slave trade to the kafiri of Africa! And this is why ever since then slaves or abid were identified as black! The white slave presence and Mamluk rule in the north is also the reason for the presence of fair skinned 'Arabs' with light colored eyes and occasional light colored hair in the areas of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq etc. But of course later racist Western discourse would focus on black presence in the Middle East as slave ancestry only.
By the way, the Slavs of Eastern Europe were not only captured and purchased as slaves by Islamic Turks and Arabs but also by western Europeans who looked down on them as inferior 'pagans' and 'primitives'. This is why a large number of Slavs were taken as slaves into Western Europe where they were assimilated. And this is also the reason why we have the very word 'SLAVE' for a person owned as property since the word is derived from Slav as in Slavic people of eastern Europe. Funny how later Western academia also identified slave with black the same way later Islamic source identified abid with black.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Show me anywhere where I said majority of the Armies in Andalus were slaves. You have a habit of taking the word of a troll with weight when it comes to me. This is not the first time either where you tried to correct me based off a troll's rumor, you are pathetic.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Here is what a recent author writes about al-Murtada whose people never saw Alphonse contrary to your half-lying suggestions and picture spam. "Of the motley of troops that had declared allegiance to al-Murtada only his own guard composed mainly of black African soldiers, remained loyal in fighting a losing battle against the stronger and better trained Sanhaja army"!!!! p. 234 Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988.
Guess who these "black African" soldiers were?
Occident and Orient by Sandor Scheiber, 1988. P. 234
[/QB][/QUOTE]
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Silent ones were not Africans but Slavs, Germanics and Englishmen Majority of the slaves in Andalus were white.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Jari save me the insults. I mean if you really were such a heavy weight with your knowledge you wouldn't start a thread openly dedicated to a discussion of a known clown troll as some form of "real debate" and enlightening discussion.
Where did I say anywhere that I am a "Heavy Weight" of anything. This thread was started to shed light onto the relationship between Megreb and Sudan. The general subject has nothing do with debating a Troll, I only asked the troll to explain itself to test if it knew anything beyond a general google search.
quote:At this point all you have is 2 pages worth of diversion from the point which is the North South relationship between the Maghreb and Sudan.
LMAO, F-k you...
asshole did you know about the distinctive style of Architecture shared between the Sudan and Mehgreb seen no where else on Earth even in Andalucia?
2) Did you know about the intermarriage of Megrebi Berbers and Sonnike people in Aswaghast??
3) Did you know that Al Mansur sent letters to Songhai and Borneo ASKING their consent on forming a western Megreb Caliphate to counter the Ottoman Turks??
When has your arse ever talked about the kasbah and Ksar architecture styles present in the as Far North as the High Atlas region Morocco and as far south as Jenne.
As far as I know I am the only and first person to discuss and introduce this. You see Im not all hung up trying to find African culture and archtecture that resembles what your god the White man has built, I.E anything by Africans that has influenced your god the white man..is all you seem to care about. Im not hung up on trying to find Africaness in Europe, esp when Megrebi and Sudani culture and Architecture are more similar to each other than to anything in Europe including Andalucia. I have no problem with African Architecture just because it is made of Adobe and Mud rather than Stone and Marble like in Andalus.
quote:All you do is entertain these fools and then have the nerve to sit up there and pretend you are dropping so much "wisdom" on everyone.
Doug 95% of your posts in in some way a response to another poster or a troll. I might not be dropping knowledge to you because you only frequent topics that has some relation to White people and Eurocentrism.
quote:Where is all this info on the topic of the thread you are supposed to be providing?
LOL, I provided plenty of info. The only person who initially took interest in this topic was Sundjaita. So tell me why should I waste my time when majority of people are not interested in this topic.
Oh and just so you know, my hard drive Crashed about a week after I started this topic. I had info from about 3 different books, 2 PDFs, and 4 online sources all lost.
Im going to have to rerent those books, search for those PDFs and redownload them etc. Im a busy man, Sorry but this will take time, and Im not in a hurry esp when no one cares about the topic at hand. If anything Im going to post this info on my blog when I get the right sources back. Folks on Egyptsearch seem to care about Europeans and Europe rather than Africans these days.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Jari save me the insults. I mean if you really were such a heavy weight with your knowledge you wouldn't start a thread openly dedicated to a discussion of a known clown troll as some form of "real debate" and enlightening discussion.
Where did I say anywhere that I am a "Heavy Weight" of anything. This thread was started to shed light onto the relationship between Megreb and Sudan. The general subject has nothing do with debating a Troll, I only asked the troll to explain itself to test if it knew anything beyond a general google search.
quote:At this point all you have is 2 pages worth of diversion from the point which is the North South relationship between the Maghreb and Sudan.
LMAO, F-k you...
asshole did you know about the distinctive style of Architecture shared between the Sudan and Mehgreb seen no where else on Earth even in Andalucia?
2) Did you know about the intermarriage of Megrebi Berbers and Sonnike people in Aswaghast??
3) Did you know that Al Mansur sent letters to Songhai and Borneo ASKING their consent on forming a western Megreb Caliphate to counter the Ottoman Turks??
When has your arse ever talked about the kasbah and Ksar architecture styles present in the as Far North as the High Atlas region Morocco and as far south as Jenne.
As far as I know I am the only and first person to discuss and introduce this. You see Im not all hung up trying to find African culture and archtecture that resembles what your god the White man has built, I.E anything by Africans that has influenced your god the white man..is all you seem to care about. Im not hung up on trying to find Africaness in Europe, esp when Megrebi and Sudani culture and Architecture are more similar to each other than to anything in Europe including Andalucia. I have no problem with African Architecture just because it is made of Adobe and Mud rather than Stone and Marble like in Andalus.
quote:All you do is entertain these fools and then have the nerve to sit up there and pretend you are dropping so much "wisdom" on everyone.
Doug 95% of your posts in in some way a response to another poster or a troll. I might not be dropping knowledge to you because you only frequent topics that has some relation to White people and Eurocentrism.
quote:Where is all this info on the topic of the thread you are supposed to be providing?
LOL, I provided plenty of info. The only person who initially took interest in this topic was Sundjaita. So tell me why should I waste my time when majority of people are not interested in this topic.
Oh and just so you know, my hard drive Crashed about a week after I started this topic. I had info from about 3 different books, 2 PDFs, and 4 online sources all lost.
Im going to have to rerent those books, search for those PDFs and redownload them etc. Im a busy man, Sorry but this will take time, and Im not in a hurry esp when no one cares about the topic at hand. If anything Im going to post this info on my blog when I get the right sources back. Folks on Egyptsearch seem to care about Europeans and Europe rather than Africans these days.
My point is you come off spewing all sorts of vile rubbish as if you are some "guardian" of this board and holder of sacred truths when you aren't. So cut the crap and stop grandstanding like you have all the info and I am someone who needs to get your "stamp of approval" for what I post. You aren't pushing any "deep" knowledge I need to humble myself for. Like I said, all you had to do was point out the error I made and be done with it. I didn't hurl any insults at you and the fact you resort to insults in order to "correct" my mistakes shows both your immaturity and your lack of your own confidence in your own "knowledge". I have no need to insult you because that is not my reason for posting here.
All of this is because you wanted to throw all kinds of insults my way as if you are some "billy bad *ss" of knowledge on this board when you aren't.
Note again, not once have I insulted you, so if you feel that you are being insulted then that is a sign of your own weakness.
As for this topic of Maghrebian architecture I have most certainly discussed it before and you should not be pretending as if you are broaching new ground as this is the same stuff we have been rehashing with various trolls for many years now. Not just me but many other posters. So who on earth do you think you are kidding?
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Wow I had no idea Ibn Rush was portrayed that way. I've always assumed he was much lighter i.e. modern stereotyped Arab. Anyway...
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You know what. I totally missed that.... LOL!
I was reading too fast.
That said my point still stands. Most of the armies in Andalus were not slaves, white or black. And you are absolutely correct that many of the Slaves in Andalus were white and specifically slavic which is the basis of the word slave.
But there was indeed a caste system of sorts by which certain groups in Andalus were treated better than others and that certainly had a lot to do with why there was so much conflict.
As for your ranting... well, just stick to the point. You could have simply said that the citation wasn't yours and been done with it. Stick to the facts man. As long as I have been on this board and having debates with trolls about Islamic Spain you certainly have not shed light on a whole lot and certainly not any light for me anyway, but I admit my mistake....
Now with that out of the way lets get back to the topic.
I hope this comes as a lesson to be careful what you read and attribute to posters but more importantly not allow trolls to confuse or distract.
To Jari, the foul language against Doug is not necessary, though I understand the frustration. The only worm here is the Lyinass troll!
By the way, abid in Arabic simply means slave and is NOT an epithet for 'black', though unfortunately it is used as such today. As you and Doug have pointed out most of the slaves during Moorish times were in fact WHITE Christian slaves some from Germany but most from Slavic eastern Europe. The ones deployed as soldiers were the Mamluks who later rebelled and banned the slave trade of their European brethren but turned the slave trade to the kafiri of Africa! And this is why ever since then slaves or abid were identified as black! The white slave presence and Mamluk rule in the north is also the reason for the presence of fair skinned 'Arabs' with light colored eyes and occasional light colored hair in the areas of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq etc. But of course later racist Western discourse would focus on black presence in the Middle East as slave ancestry only.
By the way, the Slavs of Eastern Europe were not only captured and purchased as slaves by Islamic Turks and Arabs but also by western Europeans who looked down on them as inferior 'pagans' and 'primitives'. This is why a large number of Slavs were taken as slaves into Western Europe where they were assimilated. And this is also the reason why we have the very word 'SLAVE' for a person owned as property since the word is derived from Slav as in Slavic people of eastern Europe. Funny how later Western academia also identified slave with black the same way later Islamic source identified abid with black.
We all make mistakes. I mean some folks need to come off this attitude that they are dropping such huge nuggets of pure gold on this board and don't make mistakes themselves. That is all I am offended at. LOL!
Please.
As for distractions, my point still stands most of the muslim armies in Andalus were not slaves. And indeed Jari is correct many of the slaves in Andalus were Europeans and in fact is partly the basis of the word Slave to begin with, because of the enslavement of Slavic peoples...
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Jari save me the insults. I mean if you really were such a heavy weight with your knowledge you wouldn't start a thread openly dedicated to a discussion of a known clown troll as some form of "real debate" and enlightening discussion.
Where did I say anywhere that I am a "Heavy Weight" of anything. This thread was started to shed light onto the relationship between Megreb and Sudan. The general subject has nothing do with debating a Troll, I only asked the troll to explain itself to test if it knew anything beyond a general google search.
quote:At this point all you have is 2 pages worth of diversion from the point which is the North South relationship between the Maghreb and Sudan.
LMAO, F-k you...
asshole did you know about the distinctive style of Architecture shared between the Sudan and Mehgreb seen no where else on Earth even in Andalucia?
2) Did you know about the intermarriage of Megrebi Berbers and Sonnike people in Aswaghast??
3) Did you know that Al Mansur sent letters to Songhai and Borneo ASKING their consent on forming a western Megreb Caliphate to counter the Ottoman Turks??
When has your arse ever talked about the kasbah and Ksar architecture styles present in the as Far North as the High Atlas region Morocco and as far south as Jenne.
As far as I know I am the only and first person to discuss and introduce this. You see Im not all hung up trying to find African culture and archtecture that resembles what your god the White man has built, I.E anything by Africans that has influenced your god the white man..is all you seem to care about. Im not hung up on trying to find Africaness in Europe, esp when Megrebi and Sudani culture and Architecture are more similar to each other than to anything in Europe including Andalucia. I have no problem with African Architecture just because it is made of Adobe and Mud rather than Stone and Marble like in Andalus.
quote:All you do is entertain these fools and then have the nerve to sit up there and pretend you are dropping so much "wisdom" on everyone.
Doug 95% of your posts in in some way a response to another poster or a troll. I might not be dropping knowledge to you because you only frequent topics that has some relation to White people and Eurocentrism.
quote:Where is all this info on the topic of the thread you are supposed to be providing?
LOL, I provided plenty of info. The only person who initially took interest in this topic was Sundjaita. So tell me why should I waste my time when majority of people are not interested in this topic.
Oh and just so you know, my hard drive Crashed about a week after I started this topic. I had info from about 3 different books, 2 PDFs, and 4 online sources all lost.
Im going to have to rerent those books, search for those PDFs and redownload them etc. Im a busy man, Sorry but this will take time, and Im not in a hurry esp when no one cares about the topic at hand. If anything Im going to post this info on my blog when I get the right sources back. Folks on Egyptsearch seem to care about Europeans and Europe rather than Africans these days.
Jari I think you have lost your mind. In fact, since we are going to discuss this and you want to be crass about it, did you not quote me in either this or another thread on something about the Moors? I mean come on, I am not petty but the stuff coming out of your mouth is pretty much garbage....
If this is all you have in your arsenal of "knowledge" then please keep it to yourself because I certainly am not impressed.
Your own words are proof enough of your own ignorance. LOL!
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:As for this topic of Maghrebian architecture I have most certainly discussed it before and you should not be pretending as if you are broaching new ground as this is the same stuff we have been rehashing with various trolls for many years now. Not just me but many other posters. So who on earth do you think you are kidding?
Show me where you have ever brought up the Relationship between the kasbah and Ksar architecture style, some of the oldest which come from the Sonnike settlement of Walata.
Show Me where you talked about the Interior decoration rather than the exterior being a central theme of WESTERN AFRICANS both Berber and Sudani.
Show me where you have ever pointed out that Megrebi and Sudani culture and architecture is more similar to each other than to anything found out of Africa even Andalucia which is influenced by European and Eurasian culture unlike the indigenous Megrebi and Sudani culture.
Show me where you have ever shed light onto the fact that Al Mansur of Morocco sent letters to Borno and Songhai Sultans asking for their consent in forming a West African Caliphate??
Who ARE YOU kidding??
quote:Jari I think you have lost your mind. In fact, since we are going to discuss this and you want to be crass about it, did you not quote me in either this or another thread on something about the Moors? I mean come on, I am not petty but the stuff coming out of your mouth is pretty much garbage....
If this is all you have in your arsenal of "knowledge" then please keep it to yourself because I certainly am not impressed.
Your own words are proof enough of your own ignorance.
If I did "quote" you, which I doubt I have never denied that you have contributed valuable information on this site. My problem with you is you have a habit of attacking me by misquoting me. As I said this is not the first time you have done this so dont play stupid.
Oh, Im not here to impress you. I can care less about what impresses you or what you consider valuable information. All Im here to do is to shed new light on African history as I learn new information. Nowhere have I ever stated or tried to impress anyone or claim I am a holder of valuable knowledge.
This does however expose you, It seems YOU are the one trying to be some Super how did you say.."Billy Bad ass" dropping Nuggets of Knowledge. Your dismissal of what I provided proves this, If you truely cared about African history for its Africaness you would be happy with any new information, be it big or small on African history.
Yet if anything is not about how So and So European was influenced by So and So African culture, it won't pass your snobbish ass, "Stick it do da evil White Man", Pseudo Black Revolutionary standards..
LMFAO...
Did I not warn you that the more you speak the more you dig your own grave and expose yourself..
Anyway Im done wasting time on you..
..
getting back on topic...
....
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Jari, stop kidding yourself. I don't have to show you anything.
Obviously you have a bloated ego and swear you are dropping new knowledge on this forum when you aren't.
The fact that you swear by yourself as offering something new to this board is testament to your ego and nothing else.
So anyway why don't you get back on topic?
And if I misquoted you then just say so.
Your antics are simply those of someone who gets emotional at the slightest hint of anything which shows you have an ego that is easily bruised. Which makes sense for someone who has inflated it more than realistically justified.
Like I said I admitted my mistake and all your attempts to prop up and justify your insults are simply immature and childish.
Actually this isn't really funny it is sad.
That said, I have in the past engaged in such emotional rants myself but at this point we should be beyond that....
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
And anyway back on the subject of the North South relationship another example of that relationship in terms of trade and culture is the ivory trade.
quote: It is the hardest of all organic materials, and yet, with relative ease, ivory can be sawn, drilled, filed, scraped, buffed to a high polish and even inlaid with glass, stone or gems. Its great density invites carving and engraving of the most meticulous order, and the results are luminous, even at times translucent. Adding to its allure, ivory can feel warm to the touch.
For these reasons, ivory has been prized since the earliest times and in many lands. Objects of ivory filled the ancient treasuries of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece and Rome. Assyrian annals list ivory beds, couches, chairs and tables among the booty brought back from Nimrud. Egyptians worked ivory into jewelry and game pieces, and the treasure found in Tutankhamun's tomb included a carved ivory headrest unique in Egyptian artas well as a wooden chest whose ivory panels display almost every carving technique known today. And adding to its value, there was always only one source for the precious material: elephants, whose homes in Africa and India lay weeks' or months' difficult distance from royal workshops.
The Arab conquest of North Africa in the late seventh century apparently disrupted an otherwise fairly steady ivory trade in that region, but in the ninth century the Aghlabid rulers of Tunisia reopened the trans-Saharan trade routes. Rulers of Byzantium and southern Europe began to commission splendid ivory book covers, portable ivory altars and icons. Their Muslim contemporaries in al-Andalus (Muslim Spain) produced work of no less splendor: From them have come to us a group of some 30 boxes, all made within the 100 years between 950 and 1050; they are some of the finest of all the ivories of the Middle Ages.
African ivory was in strong demand during the early Islamic era in Africa. But part of the problem with the history of this period is the fact that it is distorted by faulty scholarship and historical bias. For example, it is often overemphasized how much flowed from Islamic invaders into Africa, when in fact it was the Muslims who received a significant amount of influence from local African traditions in as much as they brought themselves. And it must also be remembered that many great fortunes were amassed by the Africans due to this trade across the Sahara in many different precious goods. Ivory is but one, but salt, leather, steel, gold and all sorts of other commodities were traded, including camels. Indigo products were also in wide demand, especially by the Nomadic tribes of the desert.
Unfortunately the extent and history of textile production in West Africa is one dominated by limited archaeological finds that don't go back much past 1100 AD (tellem textiles), but of course we know textiles in west Africa are much older than that.
Another example of the extent and age of trade between northern and southern regions is seen below:
quote: Ancient copper jewellery and ingots in sub-Saharan Africa have been found to bear the unique signature of copper ore from Morocco. This strongly suggests that trans-Saharan trade began hundreds of years earlier than previously thought.
Caravans of thousands of camels laden with packages once crossed the desert, bringing gold north and taking goods, including copper, south.
Most historians say these trade caravans began around the eighth century. But work by Thomas Fenn now points to an earlier date.
Fenn, a graduate student in anthropology at the University of Arizona, Tucson, examined old copper items from cities south of the Sahara. They included chain mail, earrings, and ingots that were traditionally strapped to the ankle for transport, in much the same way that some people stash money in their socks.
quote:Doug M: The primary factor determining the flow of populations in and around Northern Africa has always been the ebb and flow of the Sahara desert.
This is True, we need to understand that the Saharah Desert which was not always dry was the incubator of many cultures in Africa. For example the Nile Valley, Nabta Playa etc. What some people don't understand is that the people from the Saharah who created Egypt, Also moved west and created places like Dar Tilctt, Oulata etc.
Dar Tilctt represents the oldest settlement in West Africa..
quote:With its hundreds of settlements, the Tichitt Tradition is the earliest known urban-based core zone in the Western Sudan world-system. In the words of one archaeologist, its abandoned sites represent a great wealth of rather spectacular prehistoric ruins and perhaps the most remarkable group of Neolithic settlements in the world
The Settlement of Oulata dates to 4000yBP. Notice that this is the same time that folks from Nabta Playa were settling in the Nile Valley..
Some New Pics of Walata
Notice the Similarities between these and those found in the Nile Vally like Nubian and Egyptian Houses...
Some of the Designs..(Notice the Similarities between these and Designs from the Nile Valley like Egypt and Nubia..)
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Another city founded by the Trans-Sahran trade is the city of Timmimoun in Algeria. You can see clear that it has Sudani influence in its Character and Architecture..
Again this is not Mauritania or West Sudan this is in Algeria.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Alive: Perpetual Arab Domination?:
quote:Originally posted by markellion: More spamming articles:
"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World"
quote:Before the wider introduction of firearms in the 16th century, the Arab rulers of Northern Africa had no real possibilities to threaten their West African counterparts with war, as there were no such differences between the military technology which guaranteed them any absolute superiority. Furthermore, the West African armies were very large, although the claims in Arabic sources, such as the ruler of Ghana having an army of 200,000 warriors, are certainly exaggerating. Yet, in any case, we can speak of tens of thousands. To send an army of an equal size across the Sahara was extremely hazardous, and the success of the Moroccan invasion in Timbuktu in 1591 is rather an exception which reinforces the general rule: the ruler of Songhay empire considered it unnecessary to poison the wells in the desert or to organize any effective counter-attack, because he was convinced that the Moroccans would perish in the desert anyway. In fact, Judar Pasha did lose a great deal of his men during the deathly march across the western Sahara. Besides the desert, another natural advantage which protected the West Africans, was the unhealthy environment. Most parts of the savanna are infected by trypanosomiasis, which is lethal especially for quadrupeds, thus preventing the large scale use of cavalry forces in this area.
An illustrative example of the military encounter between North and West African states is the dispute on the possession of the important salt mines of Taghaza in central Sahara. At first Taghaza had been controlled by the Saharan nomads, but in the early 14th century the rulers of Mali managed to maintain some control over the routes leading these mines from the south. By the end of the following century, the askias of Songhay, which had superceded superceded Mali as the dominant power in Western Africa, extended their rule even further in the desert and appointed a governor in Taghaza. However, in 1544, Sultan Muhammad al-Mahdi, the founder of Sa'did power in Morocco, demanded the ruler of Songhay, askia Ishaq I, to give him the mines. Askia Ishaq naturally refused to do it, and a war broke out. The Moroccans sent an army to occupy Taghaza, but the army was destroyed in the desert. As response to this, a Songhay army consisting of Tuaregs, attacked northwards and sacked the southern parts of Morocco, forcing Sultan Muhammad to flee from Marrakesh. Similarly, the rulers of Bornu, lying around Lake Chad, were able to expand their political dominance deep into Fezzan, occupying the oases until the 16th century....
quote: The royal pilgrimages had also an important role in maintaining diplomatic relations with North African rulers. Yet official state visits were performed much earlier. Already in the first half of the 12th century, the Muslim ruler of a West African state called Diafunu visited Marrakesh where he met the reigning Almoravid amir Ali b. Yusuf (1106-43). Even before this visit, the Rustamid imam of Tahert had sent in early 9th century a delegation with precious gifts to the court of the "King of Blacks", referring most likely to the ruler of Gao, definitely pagan by that time. In the 14th century, delegations were exchanged regularly between the West and North African capitals. Diplomatic relations were looked after also by correspondence. Unfortunately, no letters have survived, and there are only some references to their contents in the Arabic sources, but presumably they dealt mostly with business affairs. In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:
"We are neighbours in benevolence even if we differ in religion; we agree on right conduct and are one in leniency towards our subjects. It goes without saying that justice is an essential quality of kings in conducting sound policy; tyranny is the preoccupation of ignorant and evil minds. We have heard about the imprisonment of poor traders and their being prevented from going freely about their business. The coming to and fro of merchants to a country is of benefit to its inhabitants and a help to keeping it populous. If we wished we would imprison the people of that region who happen to be in our territory but we do not think it right to do that. We ought not to "forbid immorality while practising it ourselves". Peace be upon you."
Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I hope no one's saying the blue eyed Spaniard renegade from Las Cuevas, Djudar Pasha and his contingent, hired by the sultan of Morocco was black? That would be a fanciful history.
In 1545 Askia Ishaq hired Tuareg mercenaries to pillage Dra'a a town in southern Morocco. This show of force was in response to sultan Mouley Muhammed el Kebir embassy to Songhai claiming the salt mines in Thegazza just south of Morocco. He also wrote a letter in answer to the claim which turned out to be prophetic "...the Ishaq who will listen to it is not I. That Ishaq has yet to be born." The Mefusa remained vassals of Songhai.
The next sultan, Mouley Abdallah, asked the next askia, Daud, for rent to use the mines. Askia Daud refused to cede the town or its mines but did sent the sultan a conciliatory letter and 10,000 mithqals of gold.
The sultan after that, el Mansour, sent an embassy to Songhai with valued tributory gifts. However, their true mission was reconnaissance of the Songhai empire's army and infrastructure. Askia el Hadji Muhammed III entertained the embassy at Gao, later sending them back to Morocco with better gifts than they gave him.
Instead of impressing the sultan this only aroused his avarice. El Mansour invaded Thegazza with a force of 200 musketeers. The Songhai retreated and set up mining operations in Taoudenni. El Mansour now had salt mines but no miners nor the gold of the Sudan.
When Askia Ishaq II came to Songhai's throne, el Mansour demanded a tax of one mithqal of gold for every load of salt sent to the Western Sudan (the Berber peoples of North Africa called West Africa the Sudan, meaning "land of the Black peoples"). The askia refused, sending a gift of swords and javelins, hinting at war.
El Mansour convened with his advisers laying out a plan of attack. He overruled the council's anti-war objections. He felt his trump card was guns and cannons, new weapons the Sudanese did not have. El Mansour set about assembling a crack invasion force that set out in 1590. All this was instigated by the plea of a Sonrhai named Uld Kirinfil who had been banished to Morocco by Askia Ishaq II. Uld claimed that Ishaq usurped reign from him. He begged the sultan with promises of reward if he would help him reclaim Songhai's throne.
They took the region south of Timbuktu without resistance and headed toward Gao. Askia Ishaq II met the invaders at Toundibi in the month Djomada 1591 with 30,000 infantry and 12,000 calvary. But the Spanish speaking invaders (2000 infantry musketeers and 2000 cavaliers with 6 heavy cannon and a number of small ones) defeated the valiant defenders. Faced against new gunpowdered firearms, the brave soldiery of Songhai did not turn to flee.
They held their ground and were slaughtered without opportunity to surrender. The askia, however, sought refuge in Borgu after agreeing to an annual tribute and presenting Djuder with 100,000 mitqals of gold and 1000 slaves.
When el Mansour received the gold, slaves, musk, ebony, and other spoil he employed 14,000 smiths to mint new pure gold coins to replace the adulterated money of Morocco. He was now nicknamed el Dekebi, the golden. Songhai's defeat was recorded as: "The army of the day has fallen upon the army of the night. The whiteness of the one has destroyed the blackness of the other."
Hell broke loose in Songhai. Djudar was replaced by Mahmud. The Moorish forces dealt wreck and ruin everywhere. Kaghu usurped the abdicated askiaship from Ishaq II. He was not able to route the havoc of the Moors. They captured him and executed him by demolishing a house on top of him. The Moors continued their unspeakable ravaging of the Sudan. Askia Nuh took up the valiant effort to try to hold the empire together and rid it of the Moorish threat.
The Moorish musketeer force was largely composed of moriscos (renegade Europeans, primarily Spaniards) who were so white that Moroccans called them Rouma which term the Sudanese adopted as Arma. These settled Arma took on Sudanese concubines generation after generation up until the 18th century when their power waned.
John Henrik Clarke Times of Trouble Ch 9 of The Horizon History of Africa McGraw Hill 1971 J. C. deGraft-Johnson African Glory New York Walker & Co. 1954 E. W. Bovill Golden Trade of the Moors London Oxford University Press 1958 Felix Dubois Timbuctoo the Mysterious New York Negro Universities Press 1969 (reprint of 1896)
quote:Originally posted by markellion: WHO DID THEY REALLY SELL INTO SLAVERY II?
quote:"Ahmed Baba headed the world-famous Sankore University, in Timbuktu for thirty years. Timbuktu was considered by Europeans, as the city "arched in gold and clothed in education." Ahmed Baba is considered by historians as the greatest scholar, the most extraordinary intellect, and the most prolific writer of the sixteenth century. Under his administration, Sankore became the center of the world's scientific knowledge. Its structure consisted of faculties of law, medicine and surgery, letters, grammar, manufacturing, building, and other allied craft. High standards were required in the elementary and secondary schools in Songhai in order to meet the exacting admission requirements of the university.
In 1591, Islamic and Christian forces attacked the Songhai Empire, which was larger than the continent of Europe, in order to capture Songhai's gold mines. They concentrated on the great cities of Gao, Jenne, and Timbuktu to neutralize the intellectual leadership of Songhai. Ahmed Baba and other leading intellectuals were carried north in chains by the Islamic Caliph al-Mansur to the Moroccan capital of Marrakesh and thrown into prison. In the Moslem and Christian destruction of Songhai, libraries were destroyed or stolen, including the one thousand-six-hundred-book library of Sankore. Of the forty books authored by Ahmed Baba, two are known to still be in existence. One is an autobiography and the other is entitled Al-Kabir. They are located in the Ahmed Baba Documentation Center in Timbuktu, established in 1971. During the invasion, the infrastructure and the social fabric of Songhai were destroyed. Basil Davidson says, " The invasion cost Songhai and its descendants its place in history . . . robbing that great empire of its vitality. . . . " Europeans now descended on this wealthy, huge empire with unmatched cruelty. Songhai's sad end is described in Tarikh es Sudan by eyewitness Muhammad es Sadi. While the Europeans did not find the yellow gold, they found Black gold, the enslavement of the Songhai prisoners-of-war. They took the Songhai doctors and dentists, lawyers and lecturers, professors and princes, students and surveyors, musicians and mayors and marched them to the seas to the waiting ships to be brought to America in chains. Even greater an injustice than that, they ripped the Black pages out of the books of history so that the Songhai descendants in America would not know about their great ancestors such as Ahmed Baba."
* note that religion did not prevent either europeans or arabs from attacking and enslaving black africans and destroying our civilizations--when it comes to us neither of them fully practice the religion they preach, both the arabs and the europeans have been a plague on africa and her children--A HARD LESSON of OUR HISTORY
quote:Originally posted by Alive: Perpetual Arab Domination?:
quote:Originally posted by markellion: More spamming articles:
"Trans-Saharan Trade and the West African Discovery of the Mediterranean World"
quote:Before the wider introduction of firearms in the 16th century, the Arab rulers of Northern Africa had no real possibilities to threaten their West African counterparts with war, as there were no such differences between the military technology which guaranteed them any absolute superiority. Furthermore, the West African armies were very large, although the claims in Arabic sources, such as the ruler of Ghana having an army of 200,000 warriors, are certainly exaggerating. Yet, in any case, we can speak of tens of thousands. To send an army of an equal size across the Sahara was extremely hazardous, and the success of the Moroccan invasion in Timbuktu in 1591 is rather an exception which reinforces the general rule: the ruler of Songhay empire considered it unnecessary to poison the wells in the desert or to organize any effective counter-attack, because he was convinced that the Moroccans would perish in the desert anyway. In fact, Judar Pasha did lose a great deal of his men during the deathly march across the western Sahara. Besides the desert, another natural advantage which protected the West Africans, was the unhealthy environment. Most parts of the savanna are infected by trypanosomiasis, which is lethal especially for quadrupeds, thus preventing the large scale use of cavalry forces in this area.
An illustrative example of the military encounter between North and West African states is the dispute on the possession of the important salt mines of Taghaza in central Sahara. At first Taghaza had been controlled by the Saharan nomads, but in the early 14th century the rulers of Mali managed to maintain some control over the routes leading these mines from the south. By the end of the following century, the askias of Songhay, which had superceded superceded Mali as the dominant power in Western Africa, extended their rule even further in the desert and appointed a governor in Taghaza. However, in 1544, Sultan Muhammad al-Mahdi, the founder of Sa'did power in Morocco, demanded the ruler of Songhay, askia Ishaq I, to give him the mines. Askia Ishaq naturally refused to do it, and a war broke out. The Moroccans sent an army to occupy Taghaza, but the army was destroyed in the desert. As response to this, a Songhay army consisting of Tuaregs, attacked northwards and sacked the southern parts of Morocco, forcing Sultan Muhammad to flee from Marrakesh. Similarly, the rulers of Bornu, lying around Lake Chad, were able to expand their political dominance deep into Fezzan, occupying the oases until the 16th century....
quote: The royal pilgrimages had also an important role in maintaining diplomatic relations with North African rulers. Yet official state visits were performed much earlier. Already in the first half of the 12th century, the Muslim ruler of a West African state called Diafunu visited Marrakesh where he met the reigning Almoravid amir Ali b. Yusuf (1106-43). Even before this visit, the Rustamid imam of Tahert had sent in early 9th century a delegation with precious gifts to the court of the "King of Blacks", referring most likely to the ruler of Gao, definitely pagan by that time. In the 14th century, delegations were exchanged regularly between the West and North African capitals. Diplomatic relations were looked after also by correspondence. Unfortunately, no letters have survived, and there are only some references to their contents in the Arabic sources, but presumably they dealt mostly with business affairs. In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:
"We are neighbours in benevolence even if we differ in religion; we agree on right conduct and are one in leniency towards our subjects. It goes without saying that justice is an essential quality of kings in conducting sound policy; tyranny is the preoccupation of ignorant and evil minds. We have heard about the imprisonment of poor traders and their being prevented from going freely about their business. The coming to and fro of merchants to a country is of benefit to its inhabitants and a help to keeping it populous. If we wished we would imprison the people of that region who happen to be in our territory but we do not think it right to do that. We ought not to "forbid immorality while practising it ourselves". Peace be upon you."
Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I hope no one's saying the blue eyed Spaniard renegade from Las Cuevas, Djudar Pasha and his contingent, hired by the sultan of Morocco was black? That would be a fanciful history.
In 1545 Askia Ishaq hired Tuareg mercenaries to pillage Dra'a a town in southern Morocco. This show of force was in response to sultan Mouley Muhammed el Kebir embassy to Songhai claiming the salt mines in Thegazza just south of Morocco. He also wrote a letter in answer to the claim which turned out to be prophetic "...the Ishaq who will listen to it is not I. That Ishaq has yet to be born." The Mefusa remained vassals of Songhai.
The next sultan, Mouley Abdallah, asked the next askia, Daud, for rent to use the mines. Askia Daud refused to cede the town or its mines but did sent the sultan a conciliatory letter and 10,000 mithqals of gold.
The sultan after that, el Mansour, sent an embassy to Songhai with valued tributory gifts. However, their true mission was reconnaissance of the Songhai empire's army and infrastructure. Askia el Hadji Muhammed III entertained the embassy at Gao, later sending them back to Morocco with better gifts than they gave him.
Instead of impressing the sultan this only aroused his avarice. El Mansour invaded Thegazza with a force of 200 musketeers. The Songhai retreated and set up mining operations in Taoudenni. El Mansour now had salt mines but no miners nor the gold of the Sudan.
When Askia Ishaq II came to Songhai's throne, el Mansour demanded a tax of one mithqal of gold for every load of salt sent to the Western Sudan (the Berber peoples of North Africa called West Africa the Sudan, meaning "land of the Black peoples"). The askia refused, sending a gift of swords and javelins, hinting at war.
El Mansour convened with his advisers laying out a plan of attack. He overruled the council's anti-war objections. He felt his trump card was guns and cannons, new weapons the Sudanese did not have. El Mansour set about assembling a crack invasion force that set out in 1590. All this was instigated by the plea of a Sonrhai named Uld Kirinfil who had been banished to Morocco by Askia Ishaq II. Uld claimed that Ishaq usurped reign from him. He begged the sultan with promises of reward if he would help him reclaim Songhai's throne.
They took the region south of Timbuktu without resistance and headed toward Gao. Askia Ishaq II met the invaders at Toundibi in the month Djomada 1591 with 30,000 infantry and 12,000 calvary. But the Spanish speaking invaders (2000 infantry musketeers and 2000 cavaliers with 6 heavy cannon and a number of small ones) defeated the valiant defenders. Faced against new gunpowdered firearms, the brave soldiery of Songhai did not turn to flee.
They held their ground and were slaughtered without opportunity to surrender. The askia, however, sought refuge in Borgu after agreeing to an annual tribute and presenting Djuder with 100,000 mitqals of gold and 1000 slaves.
When el Mansour received the gold, slaves, musk, ebony, and other spoil he employed 14,000 smiths to mint new pure gold coins to replace the adulterated money of Morocco. He was now nicknamed el Dekebi, the golden. Songhai's defeat was recorded as: "The army of the day has fallen upon the army of the night. The whiteness of the one has destroyed the blackness of the other."
Hell broke loose in Songhai. Djudar was replaced by Mahmud. The Moorish forces dealt wreck and ruin everywhere. Kaghu usurped the abdicated askiaship from Ishaq II. He was not able to route the havoc of the Moors. They captured him and executed him by demolishing a house on top of him. The Moors continued their unspeakable ravaging of the Sudan. Askia Nuh took up the valiant effort to try to hold the empire together and rid it of the Moorish threat.
The Moorish musketeer force was largely composed of moriscos (renegade Europeans, primarily Spaniards) who were so white that Moroccans called them Rouma which term the Sudanese adopted as Arma. These settled Arma took on Sudanese concubines generation after generation up until the 18th century when their power waned.
John Henrik Clarke Times of Trouble Ch 9 of The Horizon History of Africa McGraw Hill 1971 J. C. deGraft-Johnson African Glory New York Walker & Co. 1954 E. W. Bovill Golden Trade of the Moors London Oxford University Press 1958 Felix Dubois Timbuctoo the Mysterious New York Negro Universities Press 1969 (reprint of 1896)
quote:Originally posted by markellion: WHO DID THEY REALLY SELL INTO SLAVERY II?
quote:"Ahmed Baba headed the world-famous Sankore University, in Timbuktu for thirty years. Timbuktu was considered by Europeans, as the city "arched in gold and clothed in education." Ahmed Baba is considered by historians as the greatest scholar, the most extraordinary intellect, and the most prolific writer of the sixteenth century. Under his administration, Sankore became the center of the world's scientific knowledge. Its structure consisted of faculties of law, medicine and surgery, letters, grammar, manufacturing, building, and other allied craft. High standards were required in the elementary and secondary schools in Songhai in order to meet the exacting admission requirements of the university.
In 1591, Islamic and Christian forces attacked the Songhai Empire, which was larger than the continent of Europe, in order to capture Songhai's gold mines. They concentrated on the great cities of Gao, Jenne, and Timbuktu to neutralize the intellectual leadership of Songhai. Ahmed Baba and other leading intellectuals were carried north in chains by the Islamic Caliph al-Mansur to the Moroccan capital of Marrakesh and thrown into prison. In the Moslem and Christian destruction of Songhai, libraries were destroyed or stolen, including the one thousand-six-hundred-book library of Sankore. Of the forty books authored by Ahmed Baba, two are known to still be in existence. One is an autobiography and the other is entitled Al-Kabir. They are located in the Ahmed Baba Documentation Center in Timbuktu, established in 1971. During the invasion, the infrastructure and the social fabric of Songhai were destroyed. Basil Davidson says, " The invasion cost Songhai and its descendants its place in history . . . robbing that great empire of its vitality. . . . " Europeans now descended on this wealthy, huge empire with unmatched cruelty. Songhai's sad end is described in Tarikh es Sudan by eyewitness Muhammad es Sadi. While the Europeans did not find the yellow gold, they found Black gold, the enslavement of the Songhai prisoners-of-war. They took the Songhai doctors and dentists, lawyers and lecturers, professors and princes, students and surveyors, musicians and mayors and marched them to the seas to the waiting ships to be brought to America in chains. Even greater an injustice than that, they ripped the Black pages out of the books of history so that the Songhai descendants in America would not know about their great ancestors such as Ahmed Baba."
* note that religion did not prevent either europeans or arabs from attacking and enslaving black africans and destroying our civilizations--when it comes to us neither of them fully practice the religion they preach, both the arabs and the europeans have been a plague on africa and her children--A HARD LESSON of OUR HISTORY
The reason for this being that many mosques and fortresses built by the muslims in Spain incorporated a style of stone, packed earth and cement architecture called Tapial. And some of these styles were also influenced by the ancient traditions of the Sahel such as Oualata and Tichitt, which use stacked stone. It is from this style that some elements of Western Gothic architecture originate.
And on a Sci Fi note, the red colors of the guards for the Emirs in West Africa is probably partly the basis for the costume of the guards of the Sith Lord in the Star Wars films. Star Wars is well known to have incorporated elements of cultures and history from all over the world. And much of the filming for the first movies was done in North Africa.
About the red coloring of West African Emirs' guards' clothing and the Sith Lord's clothing in Star Wars: in India there are the Kshathriyas, an executive class of people. And let's not forget the British's Red Coats and red clothed guards. I think I may've seen others.
So I wouldn't necessarily connect it right to the Sith's from West Africa. I'm not really a hyper-diffusionist by tendency, but I do wonder about the red coats since we're talking about it and whether there could've been some West Asian, or North African, intermediary source through which they could have gotten the idea.
So if I assume it was Red-coat inspired, and it transpired to Europe via say the Moors or someone then they would have some connection.
That just seems like sort of a far leap conclusion to make there. And sometimes I like to be aware of when things are wide brush strokes or great generalizations. Like how I'm aware that this wasn't the only source / contribution to the slave trade.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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^^^^ Nice Find Doug, Some people like to dismiss "Sudano-Sahelian" style Architecture off as simply "Mud" Architecture due to the fact that it a pure Black African style and is so different in presentation than many Stone Architecture. The fact is this style is the foundation of many architecture types in North and West Africa, including Berber and Sudani architects. It makes perfect sense that this style of Architecture would find its way to Al Andalus as the Berber Almoravid and Almohads controlled Andalus and North West Africa for hundreds of years.
Some Almohad architecture not always discussed...
The Walls of Merrakesh Tapial Style
Moroccan with next to the Traditional Frame used to make Rammed Earth..Possible a descendant of the Almoravid and Almohad builders..
More Ksur styles from Southern Morocco
Ouarzarzate
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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About the red coloring of West African Emirs' guards' clothing and the Sith Lord's clothing in Star Wars: in India there are the Kshathriyas, an executive class of people. And let's not forget the British's Red Coats and red clothed guards. I think I may've seen others.
So I wouldn't necessarily connect it right to the Sith's from West Africa. I'm not really a hyper-diffusionist by tendency, but I do wonder about the red coats since we're talking about it and whether there could've been some West Asian, or North African, intermediary source through which they could have gotten the idea.
So if I assume it was Red-coat inspired, and it transpired to Europe via say the Moors or someone then they would have some connection.
That just seems like sort of a far leap conclusion to make there. And sometimes I like to be aware of when things are wide brush strokes or great generalizations. Like how I'm aware that this wasn't the only source / contribution to the slave trade.
Star Wars was filmed in North Africa near a place called Tatouine in Tunisia which is the basis of the planet Tattooine. And in the second trilogy, the alien owner of Luke Skywalker's family referred to "Nubian" racers.
Not to mention that Queen Amadala's costume was based on Tibetan costume. And that the idea of "balance" in the force is an ancient Egyptian concept. So no this is not really as far fetched as you may think. However, I am not absolutely certain about it other than there is a strong similarity and it isn't simply about the color red but the cut and style of the clothes as well.
Balance was of course a form of Maat and symbolized the duality in nature between the forces of chaos (Set) and organization (Heru):
And even over and above that, while the first trilogy borrows on Roman historical themes (empire/republic) the second trilogy IMO borrows on early Islamic and Christian themes of treachery and conflict along with themes of globalization, colonization and anti war.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Doug you may have something as their space craft was called the "Nubian",given the amount of research that goes into the making of Star Wars it is entirely plausible I donno but I don't think I am stretching here.
This kinda deserve it's own thread. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Star Wars was filmed in North Africa near a place called Tatouine in Tunisia which is the basis of the planet Tattooine. And in the second trilogy, the alien owner of Luke Skywalker's family referred to "Nubian" racers.
Not to mention that Queen Amadala's costume was based on Tibetan costume. And that the idea of "balance" in the force is an ancient Egyptian concept. So no this is not really as far fetched as you may think. However, I am not absolutely certain about it other than there is a strong similarity and it isn't simply about the color red but the cut and style of the clothes as well.
I see, and thanks for your explaination. I'm aware of the influence of exotic - including African - cultures' influence on media.
*
In my previous comment made after this...
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: It makes perfect sense that this style of Architecture would find its way to Al Andalus as the Berber Almoravid and Almohads controlled Andalus and North West Africa for hundreds of years.
They built in mud in Europe (Turkey a.k.a. Anatolia) <--- is what I meant to include in my header here:
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: There's Çatal Hüyük (Çatalhöyük, Çatal Höyük, or Catal Huyuk).
They were earth builders, they built in earth (mud).
So how do we know whether the Iberian (Al Andulas) or Berber type is of West Sahelian extraction?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Well the most simplest explanation is that the Maghreb was the source of Muslim populations in Spain not Turkey or Asia. Therefore, if the rammed earth technique came from anywhere it was the Maghreb.
That said, there was probably influence in terms of style on Maghrebian architecture from external migrants. However, we know that building using mud and stone is very ancient in Africa and this is what Jari is pointing out with Tichitt Oualata in the same region, not to mention many other ancient habitation sites in the region as well.
The main problem is that many of these sites have not been properly studied by archaeologists.
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