The main purpose of this page is educational in the sense that I got the idea after looking at this interesting link showing the hundreds of symbols used on coats of arms and family crests:
Did you check out the above link? Impressive how astute the ancients were and how broadly educated they were expected to be and needed to be.
AFRICAN TRADITIONS FOUND IN EUROPE: This assigning of meaning to symbols is an African tradition where each tribe used to have hundreds of symbols for things and found throughout art. This leads one to notice other features of Africa found in Europe; leading to the conclusion that black Europe came from Africa. Here are a few:
1. King and Queenship: in Africa, not only king but queen mother for all tribes 2. As in Egypt, king is representative of God on earth 3. Succession denoted through the carrying on of through ordinal numbers carried on in same name: Neferkare II, Neferkare II, Neferkare III, Otto I, Otto II, Otto III. 4. Masonry. As simple an idea as the brick building and one that is ornamented.
So far as I can see, the earliest examples of royals with coats of arms is in the early Middle Ages and is with black royals, not white.
Leads you to believe that the tradition began black given the prominence of black royals throughout the early and middle Middle Ages (and growing absence thereafter and now there are none).
In essence, though, this thread is about coats of arms of early and middle Middle Ages as being evocative of these being a black thing that later became a white thing.
Here are some examples:
Coat of arms of Wenceslas, lower right corner:
Coat of arms in pictures of both William of Orange and Anna of Saxony
Some history:
...displays are commonly called armorial bearings, armorial devices, heraldic devices, or simply armorials or arms.
Historically, armorial bearings were first used by feudal lords and knights in the mid-12th century on battlefields as a way to identify allied from enemy soldiers.
It was during this time and centuries earlier that black royals proliferated. Then Europe became white by degrees and today almost wholly is save for migrants.
posted
IronLiar you are a complete and total moron. No where have I claimed that big eared goober Prince Charles was my father LOL. Prince Charles is still alive my biological father is DEAD you stupid poc.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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At top a painting of William or Orange posted by Mike111. Below it the same painting in color. Below that another painting of Willam of Orange at an older age with a slighty longer haircut.
There is no contradition here. We are looking at realistic portraits of William of Orange done by court painters who painted him in person. Are we looking at a black person? That's up for grabs. But why think so when there is no record that suggests he had African ancestry. In the painting with shorter cropped hair he sort of has a somewhat mulatto look. Was he mulatto? Look at another painting when he was older. His hair seems to be straight and his complection tawny, similar to many European Spainiards. That's about all you can say, doesn't make him Spanish either. And there is no record that suggests he had African ancestry. The engraving posted earlier is in black and white not made in person. It's less reliable and appears that his skin tone is exaggeratedly dark or perhaps a tan. Going by the paintings and features in either the painting or engraving he is not obviously black looking like the below rendition of St. Maurice:
detail from Erasmus and St. Maurice
Erasmus and St. Maurice
^^^^ look at this, St Maurice depicted as a black man and acknowledged as such by mainstream white European Art Historians as depicted as black here and also in the Magdeburg Cathedral sculpture. St. Erasmus is depicted as white. There's no conspiracy here. There were some blacks in medieval Europe everyone agrees. Were they the majority? No
Now go back to the two color paintings of Willam of Orange. In one he's younger in the other older. Both are faithful realistic potraits of him. People in this thread are bascially willfully ignoring the one where he's older and going to the younger one (posting a black and white version to try to make things more ambiguous) and then suggesting "hey he looks kinda sorta black doesn't he, this must mean medieval Europe was black" (not as black as St. Maurice but at least some kind of mulatto or quadroon Europe ie one drop rule )
When the Hair of a white person is cut very short it looks more ambiguous, harder to distinguish from an afro because it isn't allowed enough length to express it's form clearly. But in the older portrait his hair is slightly longer and there you can see it's type. Was he black, mulatto or quadroon? I don't think you can assume that. It's uncertain and there isn't any historical record to suggest he was. What can we say about him? He had a light brownish complexion, that's about it. Look let's say you simply don't like the older portrait of William and you wasnt to stick with the younger one, stick with a black and white reproduction and try to use this painting as proof 1555 medieval Europe was predominantly black. The artist Anthonis Mor must have been a truth teller. And look his last name is "Mor" . That makes him even more of a truth teller he was probably black himself. Well let's look at some more context. Let's look at other paintings by this Anthonis Mor for more truth: Sel Portrait Anthonis Mor
^^^well look at him he's kinda light brownish that makes him black right. Couldn't be Southern European right?
here's another painting of Anthonis Mor by another artist Sir Thomas Gresham, ca.1560
^^Well he is apparently brownish. That's a victory right? That means he's black right? That means all of Europe was black right?
yeah but I could post photos of tons of Southern Europeans and Turks who are somewhat dark like that. But because it is not a photo for some reason all these ambigous paintings are of black people.
Let's look at some more Anthonis Mor paintings Portrait of Steven van Herwijck (c.1530- 1565/67).
^^^^ well we have an obvious white guy, not a tawny European that looks like he could have "black" tendancies from the right angle.
Look at all these "finds" you have. Hw many of them are full on black looking peopole like St. Maurice?
You try to to say that anything you don't like is "fake" and lightened. Ok then why is there this light brownish William of Orange? Why didn't they make him pale white to make it it crystal clear he couldn't have been black(or even mulatto) ??? Well Anthonis Mor and Grünewald who painted St. Erasmus must be the painters who told the true story of black Europe.
Ok fine, now look at all of Anthonis Mor's paintings and all of Grünewald's painting for the complete picture not just the cherry picked.
Ok, so you have fancy explanation. The Anthonis Mor and Grunwald paintings you like are real and the ones you don't like are "fake" - but keep this in mind, think about this carefully:
If you want to say that Europe was black until white from Central Asia realize that in order to take over Europe they had to have a poplation of millions in order to do this. And if this was in the early centuries of the AD period that means that a great many of the medieval kings and nobles were white. So even in your own scenario you can't say that this of that painting is fake and "whitened" becasue even in your scenario there had to multi millions of whites in the mdeieval period to be able to conquer the alleged multi millions of dark skinned black with afros who were there.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Perfect example of what me and Iron are saying. Whites were late-comers to the European mainland and England as witnessed by this migratory map (one of zillions recording these details to England):
Prior to their arrival were the Moors:
Whites came, mixed with the Moors and you get the offspring. The white descendents of the Moors carrying on their family names:
Hence, a brief history of the white Moors (and other such whites carrying names of Moors existent before white migration to England, Scotland, Wales, etc. . .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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I could not print certain portraits here, the site blocked them.
I notice that the American friends have some weakness of mind not being able to look at a realistic looking painted portrait and realise it can still be 100% fake.
The glamorous brownish The Key portrait of William of Orange was an anomaly and made him handsome as an actor. He was handsome, but not that much. He is described as brown of complexion and depicted many times as such. I go by the description and look at the features offered by whitened or half-whitened portraits.
William of Orange will be the main attraction of my museum, along with Jane Austen. The study will sell for € 25.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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Marc the white European aristocrats liked to use generic black people's head in addition to mythological symbols in their herladry. They are like mascots.
When you look at the portraits of the people in the families of these coats of arms are associated with their features and complections look nothing like the Moors heads in their herladry.
In their heraldry they never put an actual member of the family much less their first and last name below them. Why? because the Moor heads on the heraldry are not pictures of any member of that family, they are symbols and they are not symbols of the racial ancestry of the family any more than a lawn jockey is.
^^^ this movement is all far prior to the periods of all the paintings and illustrations being discussed
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posted
Lioness I told you over and over again but you won't listen one has to look at each individual coat of arms,some represent defeated enemies,some like Sir Hawkins was that of his slave trading expiditions. Yet others with the name Moor and it's variants shown in concert with the Blacks are actual founders of those families stop with your cookie cutter approach in regards to the subject.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Marc the white European aristocrats liked to use generic black people's head in addition to mythological symbols in their herladry. They are like mascots. blah ..blah..blah..
Muurz:
Wild men:
Muurz:
Wildmen:
Any Muur questions? Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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Yet others with the name Moor and it's variants shown in concert with the Blacks are actual founders of those families stop with your cookie cutter approach in regards to the subject. [/QB]
name one such family
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yet others with the name Moor and it's variants shown in concert with the Blacks are actual founders of those families stop with your cookie cutter approach in regards to the subject. [/QB] name one such family
How about thirty on this collage alone.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Ohhh look Marc uses a biased White people hating, Black racist, Black supremacist unqualified "scholar" like Van Sertima, a man who has been debunked so many times its pathetic as a source LOL.
Posts: 3257 | From: Madisonville, KY USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Illustration of a short-statured Ainu from David MacRitchie's The Testimony of Tradition (1890). MacRitchie believed the native inhabitants of Britain looked similar. MacRitchie himself argued in his Testimony of Tradition, under a chapter subheading entitled "A Hairy Race" (p. 167) that they were somewhat connected to the Lapps or Eskimos, but were a distinct race because of their very long beards, concluding: "one seems to see the type of a race that was even more like the Ainu than the Lapp, or the Eskimo, although closely connected in various ways with all of these" (p. 173). In MacRitchie's view the indigenous population of Britain were thus a "quasi-European" Ainu race, with minor Mongoloid traits who he considered ancestral to the Picts, a view earlier proposed by Walter Scott
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yet others with the name Moor and it's variants shown in concert with the Blacks are actual founders of those families stop with your cookie cutter approach in regards to the subject. name one such family
How about thirty on this collage alone. [/QB]
The names on that image are unreadable. I ask you to name one black family of nobles in Europe
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I'm talking about statments made about by David MacRitchie about who he thought were native Britons in his 1890 book The Testimony of Tradition
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Lioness if you squint and move in closer to your monitor screen you can make out quite a few names such as Moor,Moureau,Mourana,Mouryan,Morel and so on or you could do as Marc suggest If you want to find them in a more readable format, look them up yourself if it's that important to you.
Which is hard to do btw because the source is being up dated but will be available shortly.
And yes Lioness I know that Moor in some cases may mean bleak land scape in English,but how does that work when Noir, Negro,Nigri, Black man Black son,is also shown in concert with black men or women on the same crest.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Ohhh look Marc uses a biased White people hating, Black racist, Black supremacist unqualified "scholar" like Van Sertima, a man who has been debunked so many times its pathetic as a source LOL
While many criticize his work the African Presence In Early America how is he a racist,Black supremacist unqualified scholar I have never seen in a lecture or read any works of his that was anti anyone,as a matter of fact he goes out of his way to state that advance culture complex in the Americas did not fall from an African heaven
quote:, I made my position on this matter very clear. I never said that Africans created or founded American civilization. I said they made contact and all significant contact between two peoples lead to influences. "I think it is necessary to make it clear - since partisan and ethnocentric scholarship seems to be the order of the day - that the emergence of the Negroid face, which the archeological and cultural data overwhelmingly confirm, in no way presupposes the lack of a native originality, the absence of other influences or the automatic eclipse of other faces"-p. 147 of "They Came Before Columbus." See also Journal of African Civilizations, Vol 8, No. 2, 1986 "I cannot subscribe to the notion that civilization suddenly dropped onto the American earth from the Egyptian heaven."
And lemme just say this, many I have seen making claims or purposing theories on new world contacts everyone from Thor Heyerdahl to Berry Fell,they may not have liked their theories but attacks like that I haven't seen,imagine the nerve of this Black man proposing new world old contacts with blacks as their own agent struck some deep nerve,as long as the supposed agents of contact were Vikings,St Brandon, Phoenicians,Libyans,Celts or any folks presumed as "White" it was a non issue,but let some Black come to the table espousing a slightly different take on those theories by inserting African and Black and all hell broke loose,he maybe wrong or will yet be proven right but in the days before dna this was what most people went by. Unless you actually read the man don't criticize the man.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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And yes Lioness I know that Moor in some cases may mean bleak land scape in English,but how does that work when Noir, Negro,Nigri, Black man Black son,is also shown in concert with black men or women on the same crest. [/QB]
Show me any coat of arms, it doesn't matter if the figures on it are white or "Moors" - Show me any coat of arms in which a figure or heads on that coat of arms is intended to represent a specific member of that family, a person with a first and last name
Dr. Jose V. Pimienta-Bey Assistant Professor of General Studies and Director of African and African American Studies
Woods-Penn, Room 207 CPO 1903
Office Hours: By appointment Phone: 859-985-3455 Fax: 859-985-3913 E-Mail: jose_bey@berea.edu At Berea College since 2004 Degrees B.A., Gettysburg College, 1984 M.A., Shippensburg University, 1987 Ph.D., Temple University, 1995 So you know he is not some youtuber shouting off at the mouth..
You can FF to time 17 that's where he get into the families
Btw Marc is right you do have this information and I just gave it to you above again. make use of it.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Dr. Jose V. Pimienta-Bey Assistant Professor of General Studies and Director of African and African American Studies
Woods-Penn, Room 207 CPO 1903
Office Hours: By appointment Phone: 859-985-3455 Fax: 859-985-3913 E-Mail: jose_bey@berea.edu At Berea College since 2004 Degrees B.A., Gettysburg College, 1984 M.A., Shippensburg University, 1987 Ph.D., Temple University, 1995 So you know he is not some youtuber shouting off at the mouth..
You can FF to time 17 that's where he get into the families
Btw Marc is right you do have this information and I just gave it to you above again. make use of it.
None of the above information which you post over and over again show that any noble family in Great Britain, Ireland or Germany was founded by a black person or "Moor".
The Moors in the herladry are do not represent members of that family. That is ignorance of history, herladry and is wishful thinking. The idea that any European noble family that has a Moor in it's crest were Moors is ridiculous fanatsy That is not to say that Moorish culture did not influence Europe particulary Spain. It did and that is a separate point. The people of al-Andalus were widely varied ethnically
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Dr. Jose V. Pimienta-Bey Assistant Professor of General Studies and Director of African and African American Studies
Woods-Penn, Room 207 CPO 1903
Office Hours: By appointment Phone: 859-985-3455 Fax: 859-985-3913 E-Mail: jose_bey@berea.edu At Berea College since 2004 Degrees B.A., Gettysburg College, 1984 M.A., Shippensburg University, 1987 Ph.D., Temple University, 1995 So you know he is not some youtuber shouting off at the mouth..
You can FF to time 17 that's where he get into the families
Btw Marc is right you do have this information and I just gave it to you above again. make use of it.
None of the above information which you post over and over again show that any noble family in Great Britain, Ireland or Germany was founded by a black person or "Moor".
The Moors in the herladry are do not represent members of that family. That is ignorance of history, herladry and is wishful thinking. The idea that any European noble family that has a Moor in it's crest were Moors is ridiculous fanatsy That is not to say that Moorish culture did not influence Europe particulary Spain. It did and that is a separate point. The people of al-Andalus were widely varied ethnically
Duncey
You are wrong as usual. Here, I gonna help you again:
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on 24 November, 2011 10:48 AM:
Muur:
quote: “DOUGALL (Generally Mac-Dougall): Gael. dhu, black, and gall, a stranger – an expression used by the CELTIC INHABITANTS OF SCOTLAND to DENOTE A LOWLANDER, or ANY ONE NOT OF THEIR OWN RACE. It is still in use as a baptismal name” – Page 93 (“Dou- to Dow-”), “Patronymica Britannica: A Dictionary of the Family Names of the United Kingdom” by Mark Antony Lower, 1860 quote: “Duff, a surname adopted from the Celtic, in which? language the word means black. Sibbald, in his History of Fife, says, ” that as Niger and Rufus were names of families amongst the Romans, from the colour and complexion of men, so it seems Duff was, from the swarthy and black colour of those of the tribe,” or clan of Macduff.”
-The Scottish nation; or, The surnames, families, literature, honours, and biographical history of the people of Scotland (1877) by William Anderson
Posted by Nehesy (Member # 17252) on 24 November, 2011 01:26 PM:
David MacRitchie , « Ancient and Modern Britons » , 1884
1. Vol I, page 46 :
"Any latin dictionary, any old one at least, will tell you that maurus is a 'moor', a 'blackamoor' or a'tawny moor '. And Shakespeare uses the world 'moor' as a synonym for 'negro'(Merchant of Venice, act III, scene V)''..."At that last world bears nowadays a somewhat restricted meaning , it may be better to take the old fashioned « blackamoor »,as the nearest English rendering of maurus signifying thereby any black, or brown skinned man".
2. Vol II Page 87
"....One division of the posterity of this powerful black king, of the tenth century, became known to Gaelic-speaking people as MAGA DUBH ( Mc Duff) or "clan of the black ", see also Vol I page 161-162
3. Vol I, page 214 :
"And in the diction of the past, A black man was a moor...."
MacRitchie speaks of :
- Xantochroid : White,
- Melanchroid (Xantochroid , mixed with Austroloid i.e blacks)
- Austroloids
But Also :
- Blackamoors (Moors)
- Black People of scotland (Duine Dubh = Black Man in scottish gaelic ) : Vol I page 47
- Black people of Ireland (Duine Gorm = Black Man in Irish Gaelic) : Vol I page 47
- Moravia or river of the moors : Vol I p 49 ( one of the tribe was called Quadi and fought the romans)
- Black people of Wales (Bwabach, Coblynau, Adhach Dubh or Avagddu) : Vol I page 156
- Black Knight of Lancashire : Vol I page 158
- Black Scandinavians (Thorfinn and Thorhall) : Vol I page 117
- Black Scandinavians (DUBH-LOCHLINNEAICH ) and White scandinavians (FIONN-LOCHLINNEAICH ): Vol I page 117
Romans found black people in britain :
- Vol I P 45: Pliny described them as AETHIOPIUM
- Vol I P 46-47 : Claudian described them as blackamoor
Etc, etc and many more : Scotland, Spain, France, England, Ireland, Denmark etc
- Volume I : pages 21,121,131
- Volume II : pages 17,20,27,87,102,107,112,113,127,188-189,297,322,328-329,360,392
Etc, etc Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Iron this David MacRitchie stuff is hogwash
We are talking about human figures and heads in European heraldry.
Show me one case where a figure or head that appears in a coat of arms or crest is depicting a member of that family who has a first and last name. I doesn't eve have to be a "Moor". Just show us any
None of David MacRitchie's theories are going to do that for you because the idea that Europeans put actual family members into the coats of arms and crests is wrong.
Therefore if you see a Moors head in a European family crest it does not mean the family itself was black or founded by blacks. That is silliness just like if you see a "wildman" in a crest it does not mean the family was founded by "wildmen" -pure foolishness
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Iron this David MacRitchie stuff is hogwash
We are talking about human figures and heads in European heraldry.
Show me one case where a figure or head that appears in a coat of arms or crest is depicting a member of that family who has a first and last name. I doesn't eve have to be a "Moor". Just show us any
None of David MacRitchie's theories are going to do that for you because the idea that Europeans put actual family members into the coats of arms and crests is wrong.
Therefore if you see a Moors head in a European family crest it does not mean the family itself was black or founded by blacks. That is silliness just like if you see a "wildman" in a crest it does not mean the family was founded by "wildmen" -pure foolishness
.
sttutgart
Why is MacRitichie hogwash? He is smarter than you! He was out in public.
He wrote a book. He told the truth.
You are annonymous. You are dumb like Duncey. You can barely read and write.
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on 22 November, 2011 05:07 PM:
King Kenneth Dubh: 962 – 997 AD
Dub mac Maíl Coluim (Modern Gaelic: Dubh mac Mhaoil Chaluim) sometimes anglicised as Duff MacMalcolm Niger, “the Black” (died 967) was king of Alba.
He was son of Malcolm I (Máel Coluim mac Domnaill) and succeeded to the throne when Indulf (Ildulb mac Causantín) was killed in 962.
Niger Val Dubh lived and reigned over certain black divisions in Scotland. A clan of Scots known as ‘the sons of the blacks’ (MacDub or MacDuib, MacDuff) succeeded him in history. (JA Rogers, Sex and Race).
Dubh’s descendants, the clann Dubh, (clan MacDuff) became officials of the Scottish court and later Earls of Fife.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: [QB] Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on 22 November, 2011 05:07 PM:
You also provided no souce information about the head above Do proper research otherwise what you present is not credible. What is the date or the piece, where is it from, what museum, collection or book is it from. I already warned marc about trying to speak for Brada. Brada shouldn't have people helping him if he wants to get into the LTC it has to be legit
However we are talking here about coats of arms/family crests and if people in them correspond to actual people with first and last names
The above is neither.
Just let Brada handle it first. Be patient, I know you need the attention
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Egmond, the book is called a book of Seneca’s Tragedies.
It was made for the Pucci family of Florence, one of those Muurish people I speak about.
Muurish German Kings
Nuremberg Musuem:
.....
Cardinal Lorenzo Pucci by Parmigianino 1529-30,
The Pucci family great Muurish ancestor:
quote: The family surname derives from an ancestor named Jacopo, abbreviated to Jacopuccio, then to Puccio, who was considered wise and frequently called upon to settle disputes - there are records of two such interventions in 1264 and 1287.
Their former surname seems to have been Saracini, which explains the presence of a maure or moor's head on their crest and coat of arms.
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: [QB] Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on 22 November, 2011 05:07 PM:
You also provided no souce information about the head above Do proper research otherwise what you present is not credible. What is the date or the piece, where is it from, what museum, collection or book is it from
However we are talking here about coats of arms/family crests and if people in them correspond to actual people with first and last names
....
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: The Negri family of France
Originally from Normandy France, noble and prominent family with land, manors and white slaves.
This family was well regarded in their local region of Calvados.
______________________________________^^^^ yes the resemblance is uncanny, I guess I was wrong
Denzel Pucci, founder of the Pucci family, Florence, taste for white meat
Did you ever notice how the early European kings all wore headbands and earrings?
also it's funny how Denzel Pucci couldn't get the other Pucci members to stick with Islam, I wonder why (not very Moorish of them)
See this is what happened. The Christisns and Muslims were killing each other during the Crusades. Then after it all died down the Christians said to the defeated Muslim invaders " let's let bygones be bygones, come up to Germany and start up some families we'll hook you up wih the nobility and get the Pope's blessing."
All was happy again
until Charles V endorsed Portugese slave trading in Africa
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^^^^ IronLion has fvcked me again!!, I guess I was wrong
blah...blah...blah... [/QB]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: .....
Show me one case where a figure or head that appears in a coat of arms or crest is depicting a member of that family who has a first and last name. I doesn't eve have to be a "Moor". Just show us any
blah...blah..blah..
.
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
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^^^ yes, maybe someone can tell us which member of the Pucci family this was. what his name was ???
Just read back in the historical records, the Pucci patriarch who used to like to wear a headband and earrings, what was his name again?
.
quote:Pucci Muurz ancestral founder: The family surname derives from an ancestor named Jacopo, abbreviated to Jacopuccio, then to Puccio, who was considered wise and frequently called upon to settle disputes - there are records of two such interventions in 1264 and 1287. Their former surname seems to have been Saracini, which explains the presence of a maure or moor's head on their crest and coat of arms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pucci_family
quote:Originally posted by IronLion: The Negri family of France
Originally from Normandy France, noble and prominent family with land, manors and white slaves.
This family was well regarded in their local region of Calvados.
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Cardinal Lorenzo Pucci by Parmigianino 1529-30, 
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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