posted
I think I need to start paying attention to some of the people posting things on this site out of context.
Some poster from last year had me believing Christopher Ehret believed Afroasiatics or Afrasians and more specifically Semites didn't come from Africa.
I hope other's weren't misled as well.
To clarify things, here are some of Ehret's recent points of view from one of his latest works, History and the Testimony of Language published last year (2011).
His new term for the ancestral Berber language is Proto-Chado-Berber which he believes to part of the 4th linguistic stage of Proto-Afro-Asian.
He links Proto-Chado-Berber to the Capsian culture.
"Both the geographical location and the material culture of the ancestral Chado-Berber stratum, as argued from the linguistic evidence,closely match up with those of the Capsian archaeological culture of the ninth and tenth millenium...". p. 156
Christopher Ehret believes the Semitic dialects to have emerged later out of the other branch of the 4th stage which he names "Proto-Boreafrasian"
"the correlation of Proto-Chado-Berber with the earliest Capsian of the ninth millenium BCE would place the beginning of the divergence of Proto-Boreafrasian into daughter languages at around the eleventh or twelfth millenium BCE. Because just two later languages of Boreafrasian existed - ancient Egyptian which remained in Africa and ancestral Semitic which emerged in the adjacent Levant - the Borefrasan divergence is most parsimoniously accounted for by postulating a single movement of the earliest Proto-Semitic speakers from Egypt into the Levant(map 2) There is in fact an apparent archaeological counterpart of just this linguistic hypothesis: the Mushabian culture of the 11th millenium B.C. in the southern Levant, which Ofer Bar Yusef traces back to origins in Egypt, closely fits the qualifications of this hypothesis...". page 158
The ancestor of the Semitic, Chado-Berber and Egyptian is considered to be Proto-Afrasian and to have emerged in the Erythraean highlands.
"The Afrasian family originated in all probability in either of two locations: in the northern Ethiopian Highlands or in the area immediately north of the highlands." p. 155
He designates these first Afroasiatic or Afrasian-speakers the "Proto-Erythraic" group.
In his book, The Civilizations of Africa: A History to 1800, he writes "Proto-Chadic... was probably one of the northern Erythaite languages spoken by the people of the Capsian Tradition." p. 78
On page 77 "Among the Erythraite peoples who made Capsian civilization who made the Capsian archaelogical cultures of those areas, domestic cattle were probably present in by sometime in the 7th millenium, if not before."
On page 85 he refers to them as "the Capsian Northern Erythraites."
On page 75 he refers to Cushites as a "southern Erythraite society.
He again makes the Erythraites the ancestors of Semitic culture.
"Another group of Erythraite communities, speaking a language ancestral to the later Semitic languages moved northward at some point across the Sinai and Peninsula and into the Palestine-Syrian region of far southwestern Asia." p. 76
Ehret seems an Africanist and linguist in some ways ahead of his time.
But, one wonders how the new discoveries of ancient 3rd and 4th millenium "Afro-Arabian" or "Afro-Tihama" culture in the Yemen will come to fit in with his conclusions.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I think I need to start paying attention to some of the people posting things on this site out of context.
Some poster from last year had me believing Christopher Ehret believed Afroasiatics or Afrasians and more specifically Semites didn't come from Africa.
No, I at least was not mislead since the idiotic troll who created the thread shows a map by Ehret which specifically shows Proto-Afrisian in Africa.
^ Note that Proto-Afrasian according to Ehret did indeed lie along the Erythrean (Red) Sea hill area.
quote:The ancestor of the Semitic, Chado-Berber and Egyptian is considered to be Proto-Afrasian and to have emerged in the Erythraean highlands.
I find it interesting that Ehret postulates the ancestor of proto-Berber to be the same as that of proto-Chadic. I notice many Euronuts tend to keep quiet about Chadic no doubt because many of its speakers conform to the 'true negroid' type. LOL Only recently have scholars like geneticist Fulvio Cruciani try to postulate a non-African origin for Chadic speakers due to some of them possessing of R1 haplogroups as discussed here. The only problem though is that the frequency of R1* and its diversity is greatest in central Western Africa where Chadic speakers are a minority and Niger-Congo speakers predominate! Though there is a presence of R1* Egypt it fails to be identified with Afroasatic since the vast majority of Afroasiatic speakers in general carry hg E.
quote:On page 77 "Among the Erythraite peoples who made Capsian civilization who made the Capsian archaelogical cultures of those areas, domestic cattle were probably present in by sometime in the 7th millenium, if not before."
I believe Ehret and others identify cattle domestication with Nilo-Saharan speakers since the vocabulary associated with cattle and pastoralism all have Nilo-Saharan roots.
"It is possible from this overview of the data to conclude that the limited conceptual vocabulary shared by the ancestors of contemporary Chadic-speakers (therefore also contemporary Cushitic-speakers), contemporary Nilotic-speakers and Ancient Egyptian-speakers suggests that the earliest speakers of the Egyptian language could be located to the south of Upper Egypt (Diakonoff 1998) or, earlier, in the Sahara (Wendorf 2004), where Takács (1999, 47) suggests their ‘long co-existence’ can be found. In addition, it is consistent with this view to suggest that the northern border of their homeland was further than the Wadi Howar proposed by Blench (1999, 2001), which is actually its southern border. Neither Chadics nor Cushitics existed at this time, but their ancestors lived in a homeland further north than the peripheral countries that they inhabited thereafter, to the south-west, in a Niger-Congo environment, and to the south-east, in a Nilo-Saharan environment, where they interacted and innovated in terms of language. From this perspective, the Upper Egyptian cultures were an ancient North East African ‘periphery at the crossroads’, as suggested by Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas of the Beja (Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas 2006). The most likely scenario could be this: some of these Saharo-Nubian populations spread southwards to Wadi Howar, Ennedi and Darfur; some stayed in the actual oases where they joined the inhabitants; and others moved towards the Nile, directed by two geographic obstacles, the western Great Sand Sea and the southern Rock Belt. Their slow perambulations led them from the area of Sprinkle Mountain (Gebel Uweinat) to the east – Bir Sahara, Nabta Playa, Gebel Ramlah, and Nekhen/Hierakonpolis (Upper Egypt), and to the north-east by way of Dakhla Oasis to Abydos (Middle Egypt)."--Anselin (2009)
In addition to the archeological and paleontological evidence, recent linguistic studies indicate the presence of early pastoralists in the Eastern Sahara. Detailed analysis of Nilo-Saharan root words has provided "convincing evidence" that the early cultural history of that language family included a pastoralist and food producing way of life, and that this occurred in what is today the south-western Sahara and Sahel belt. The Nilo-Saharan family of languages is divided into a complex array of branches and subgroups that reflect an enormous time depth. Just one of the subgroups, Kir is as internally complex as the lndo-European family of languages and is believed to have a comparable age. The Sudanese branch is of special interest here. This is particularly true of the Northern Sudanese subfamily that includes a Saharo-Sahelian subgroup, the early homeland of which is placed in northwest Sudan and northeast Chad. Today, the groups that speak Saharo-Sahelian are dispersed from the Niger river eastward to northwestern Ethiopian highlands. The Proto-Northern Sudanic language contains root words such as "to drive," "cow, "grain,""ear of grain," and "grindstone." Any of these might apply to food production, but another root word meaning "to milk" is cetainly the most convincing evidence of incipient pastoralism. There are also root words for "temporary shelter" and "to make a pot." In the succeeding Proto-Saharo-Sahelian language, there are root words for "to cultivate", "to prepare field", to "clear" (of weeds), and "cultivated field." this is the first unambiguous linguistic evidence of cultivation. There are also words for "thombush cattle pen," "fence," "yard," "grannary," as well as "to herd" and "cattle." In the following Proto-Sahelian period, there are root words for "goat," "sheep," "ram," and "lamb," indicating the presence of small livestock. There are root words for "cow," "bull," "ox," and "young cow" or "heifer" and, indeed, a variety of terms relating to cultivation and permanent houses. On the basis of known historical changes in some of the language, Ehret estimates that the Proto-Northern Sudanic language family, which includes the first root words indicating cattle pastoralism, should be dated about 10,000 years ago. He also estimates that the Proto-Saharan-Sahelian language family, which has words indicating not only more complex cattle pastroalism, but the first indications of cultivation, occurred around 9,000 years ago. He places the Proto-Sahelian language at about 8,500 years ago. These age estimates are just that, and should not be used to suggest any other chronology. Nevertheless, the sequence of cultural changes is remarkably similar to that in the archeology of the Eastern Sahara and, with some minor adjustments for the beginning of cultivation and for' the inclusion of "sheep" and "goat," reasonably closely to the radiocarbon chronology. - Fred Wendorf & Romuald Schild, 1994.
quote:But, one wonders how the new discoveries of ancient 3rd and 4th millenium "Afro-Arabian" or "Afro-Tihama" culture in the Yemen will come to fit in with his conclusions.
Interesting speculation. I believe Explorer addressed this here with the significance of Ethio-Semitic languages like Gurage.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It's obvious Afroasiatic originated in Africa. All major branches of the language phylum are exclusively native to Africa except Semitic, which according to Ehret was introduced to Southwest Asia by African immigrants.
This means all those hairy muktaba Southwest Asians adopted their languages from Africans! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ LOL Sorry tin cat, but I don't wear panties and Ehret is not confused at all unlike YOU! I doubt Ehret is under the control of YOUR Ashkenazi masters since there are some Ashkenazi elite would find it uncomfortable to know that their ancient language and culture that they claim is originally black African in origin.
So keep watching your silly ass out for dem Juus! LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This means all those hairy muktaba Southwest Asians adopted their languages from Africans!
I don't know what a "muktaba" is, but you seem to be using it as a racial slur. I thought you were above such crude racism.
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^ I usually am above ethnic mockery, but this troll is getting on my last nerve. I have no problem against his people in general and merely wrote that as bait for him. Obviously he ain't biting so...
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I think its wrong to identify Proto-Berbers, or even Proto-Chadians (exclusively) with the Capsian culture. There were obviously lineages in Northern Africa that predate the onset of the Holocene. Why is Ehret making such rudimentary errors? The typical Berber paternal NRY marker E-M81, which may be used to identify their expansion into North Africa, originated less than 6000 years ago.
-Afrasan speakers are NOT the original people of the wider Sahara.
-Despite their language having commonalities with Semitic and Berber languages, the core of the Ancient Egyptian population was probably much more related to the indigenous Northeast African people, who predate those languages, and who may be exemplified by Nazlet Khater. Their ancestry probably had much more affinity with contemporary hunter gatherer Africans all over Sub Saharan Africa, than to ancestral Ethiopians and Somali's and Berber speakers, who seem to be in their own lane, with much of their ancestry being specific to the section of Africa they inhabit, and who are also partially descended from the OOA population(s). This relationship of Palaeolithic Egyptians to contemporary Sub Saharan Africans was not only shown skeletally by Pinhasi, but can also been seen in numerous other ways, such as the presence of severe cases of sickle cell in predynastic Egypt, blood type similarities with groups with Sub-Saharan affinity (Harratin) to dynastic Egyptians, and the latest evidence being stong alleles matches between Egyptians and groups literally all over Sub-Saharan Africa, from Pygmies, to San, and other groups who now reside below the equator.
-During the Holocene, we get the migration of Proto-Afrasan people towards the Nile Valley, which is why we have their lineages and languages (Medjay, Ancient Egyptian, Berber) in Egypt, the Middle East and possibly all three languages in Ancient Sudan as well. These Holocenic demographic changes are what cause people to think that the core Egyptian population must have been genetically identical to Proto-Afrasan speakers, even though Neolithic Egyptians/Northern Sudanese display numerous signs of local differentiation, consistent with above described relatively distant relationship of most Ancient Egyptians to ancestral Somali's and Ethiopians.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I think I need to start paying attention to some of the people posting things on this site out of context.
Some poster from last year had me believing Christopher Ehret believed Afroasiatics or Afrasians and more specifically Semites didn't come from Africa.
No, I at least was not mislead since the idiotic troll who created the thread shows a map by Ehret which specifically shows Proto-Afrisian in Africa.
^ Note that Proto-Afrasian according to Ehret did indeed lie along the Erythrean (Red) Sea hill area.
quote:The ancestor of the Semitic, Chado-Berber and Egyptian is considered to be Proto-Afrasian and to have emerged in the Erythraean highlands.
I find it interesting that Ehret postulates the ancestor of proto-Berber to be the same as that of proto-Chadic. I notice many Euronuts tend to keep quiet about Chadic no doubt because many of its speakers conform to the 'true negroid' type. LOL Only recently have scholars like geneticist Fulvio Cruciani try to postulate a non-African origin for Chadic speakers due to some of them possessing of R1 haplogroups as discussed here. The only problem though is that the frequency of R1* and its diversity is greatest in central Western Africa where Chadic speakers are a minority and Niger-Congo speakers predominate! Though there is a presence of R1* Egypt it fails to be identified with Afroasatic since the vast majority of Afroasiatic speakers in general carry hg E.
quote:On page 77 "Among the Erythraite peoples who made Capsian civilization who made the Capsian archaelogical cultures of those areas, domestic cattle were probably present in by sometime in the 7th millenium, if not before."
I believe Ehret and others identify cattle domestication with Nilo-Saharan speakers since the vocabulary associated with cattle and pastoralism all have Nilo-Saharan roots.
"It is possible from this overview of the data to conclude that the limited conceptual vocabulary shared by the ancestors of contemporary Chadic-speakers (therefore also contemporary Cushitic-speakers), contemporary Nilotic-speakers and Ancient Egyptian-speakers suggests that the earliest speakers of the Egyptian language could be located to the south of Upper Egypt (Diakonoff 1998) or, earlier, in the Sahara (Wendorf 2004), where Takács (1999, 47) suggests their ‘long co-existence’ can be found. In addition, it is consistent with this view to suggest that the northern border of their homeland was further than the Wadi Howar proposed by Blench (1999, 2001), which is actually its southern border. Neither Chadics nor Cushitics existed at this time, but their ancestors lived in a homeland further north than the peripheral countries that they inhabited thereafter, to the south-west, in a Niger-Congo environment, and to the south-east, in a Nilo-Saharan environment, where they interacted and innovated in terms of language. From this perspective, the Upper Egyptian cultures were an ancient North East African ‘periphery at the crossroads’, as suggested by Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas of the Beja (Dahl and Hjort-af-Ornas 2006). The most likely scenario could be this: some of these Saharo-Nubian populations spread southwards to Wadi Howar, Ennedi and Darfur; some stayed in the actual oases where they joined the inhabitants; and others moved towards the Nile, directed by two geographic obstacles, the western Great Sand Sea and the southern Rock Belt. Their slow perambulations led them from the area of Sprinkle Mountain (Gebel Uweinat) to the east – Bir Sahara, Nabta Playa, Gebel Ramlah, and Nekhen/Hierakonpolis (Upper Egypt), and to the north-east by way of Dakhla Oasis to Abydos (Middle Egypt)."--Anselin (2009)
In addition to the archeological and paleontological evidence, recent linguistic studies indicate the presence of early pastoralists in the Eastern Sahara. Detailed analysis of Nilo-Saharan root words has provided "convincing evidence" that the early cultural history of that language family included a pastoralist and food producing way of life, and that this occurred in what is today the south-western Sahara and Sahel belt. The Nilo-Saharan family of languages is divided into a complex array of branches and subgroups that reflect an enormous time depth. Just one of the subgroups, Kir is as internally complex as the lndo-European family of languages and is believed to have a comparable age. The Sudanese branch is of special interest here. This is particularly true of the Northern Sudanese subfamily that includes a Saharo-Sahelian subgroup, the early homeland of which is placed in northwest Sudan and northeast Chad. Today, the groups that speak Saharo-Sahelian are dispersed from the Niger river eastward to northwestern Ethiopian highlands. The Proto-Northern Sudanic language contains root words such as "to drive," "cow, "grain,""ear of grain," and "grindstone." Any of these might apply to food production, but another root word meaning "to milk" is cetainly the most convincing evidence of incipient pastoralism. There are also root words for "temporary shelter" and "to make a pot." In the succeeding Proto-Saharo-Sahelian language, there are root words for "to cultivate", "to prepare field", to "clear" (of weeds), and "cultivated field." this is the first unambiguous linguistic evidence of cultivation. There are also words for "thombush cattle pen," "fence," "yard," "grannary," as well as "to herd" and "cattle." In the following Proto-Sahelian period, there are root words for "goat," "sheep," "ram," and "lamb," indicating the presence of small livestock. There are root words for "cow," "bull," "ox," and "young cow" or "heifer" and, indeed, a variety of terms relating to cultivation and permanent houses. On the basis of known historical changes in some of the language, Ehret estimates that the Proto-Northern Sudanic language family, which includes the first root words indicating cattle pastoralism, should be dated about 10,000 years ago. He also estimates that the Proto-Saharan-Sahelian language family, which has words indicating not only more complex cattle pastroalism, but the first indications of cultivation, occurred around 9,000 years ago. He places the Proto-Sahelian language at about 8,500 years ago. These age estimates are just that, and should not be used to suggest any other chronology. Nevertheless, the sequence of cultural changes is remarkably similar to that in the archeology of the Eastern Sahara and, with some minor adjustments for the beginning of cultivation and for' the inclusion of "sheep" and "goat," reasonably closely to the radiocarbon chronology. - Fred Wendorf & Romuald Schild, 1994.
quote:But, one wonders how the new discoveries of ancient 3rd and 4th millenium "Afro-Arabian" or "Afro-Tihama" culture in the Yemen will come to fit in with his conclusions.
Interesting speculation. I believe Explorer addressed this here with the significance of Ethio-Semitic languages like Gurage.
No, I don't take the illogical postings of the Neandernuts on this site for anything more than what they are. I am talking about a posting by someone whose thinking I actually respect alot, who (possibly not intentionally) made it seem at least to me as if Ehret had given up the idea that semitic-speakers had an African origination. This confused me for awhile. Now I see that he has definitely not given it up.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I think its wrong to identify Proto-Berbers, or even Proto-Chadians (exclusively) with the Capsian culture. There were obviously lineages in Northern Africa that predate the onset of the Holocene. Why is Ehret making such rudimentary errors? The typical Berber paternal NRY marker E-M81, which may be used to identify their expansion into North Africa, originated less than 6000 years ago.
-Afrasan speakers are NOT the original people of the wider Sahara.
-Despite their language having commonalities with Semitic and Berber languages, the core of the Ancient Egyptian population was probably much more related to the indigenous Northeast African people, who predate those languages, and who may be exemplified by Nazlet Khater. Their ancestry probably had much more affinity with contemporary hunter gatherer Africans all over Sub Saharan Africa, than to ancestral Ethiopians and Somali's and Berber speakers, who seem to be in their own lane, with much of their ancestry being specific to the section of Africa they inhabit, and who are also partially descended from the OOA population(s). This relationship of Palaeolithic Egyptians to contemporary Sub Saharan Africans was not only shown skeletally by Pinhasi, but can also been seen in numerous other ways, such as the presence of severe cases of sickle cell in predynastic Egypt, blood type similarities with groups with Sub-Saharan affinity (Harratin) to dynastic Egyptians, and the latest evidence being stong alleles matches between Egyptians and groups literally all over Sub-Saharan Africa, from Pygmies, to San, and other groups who now reside below the equator.
-During the Holocene, we get the migration of Proto-Afrasan people towards the Nile Valley, which is why we have their lineages and languages (Medjay, Ancient Egyptian, Berber) in Egypt, the Middle East and possibly all three languages in Ancient Sudan as well. These Holocenic demographic changes are what cause people to think that the core Egyptian population must have been genetically identical to Proto-Afrasan speakers, even though Neolithic Egyptians/Northern Sudanese display numerous signs of local differentiation, consistent with above described relatively distant relationship of most Ancient Egyptians to ancestral Somali's and Ethiopians.
I think you need to read what Ehret says in his books Swenet, because from what you said it sounds like you have read little of him. This was my mistake, not really having read his books myself. He considers Egyptian, Berber, Chadic, Semitic to be all later evolutions of an original Erythraic precursor. He has done much work as a linguist and correlating the linguistic science of evolutionary time frames with archaeology and genetics including the genetic evolution of fauna and animals of the region in relation to these dialects. One can not rely simply on knowledge of genetic or human haplotype information if one doesn't know how it correlates with the physical anthropological, archaeological and other historical evidence. Ehret has extensive background with with relation to all of this subject matter in the region.
As you have accused him of making "rudimentary errors" I am of course assuming you have a background similar to his and know what he has said or believes about Nazlet Khater of over 30 thousand years ago. I would be happy to look at some of your research as well.
I am particularly interested in what you have concluded the supposed "ancestral Somalis Ethiopians " may have looked like and where you suppose they were. As far as I can tell Ehret has said the origins of the Capsians were with the east African Capsian type cultures far to the south of Egypt. Please forward me the name of your papers and or texts by private email if you wish. Thank you.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:I think you need to read what Ehret says in his books Swenet, because from what you said it sounds like you have read little of him. This was my mistake, not really having read his books myself.
With all respect Dana, how is it ok for you to make a general statement about what Ehret thinks about Semitic tongues based on those excerpts, while its not ok for me to make a general statement about what he thinks are the relations between early Afrasan speakers and Capsian people?
quote:He has done much work as a linguist and correlating the linguistic science of evolutionary time frames with archaeology and genetics including the genetic evolution of fauna and animals of the region in relation to these dialects.
Linguistic evidence can be correlated with findings in a various ways. Read what Djehuti said about about Cruciani and Chadic languages. That these correlations are made, makes the theories of said scientists stronger, depending on the logical coherence of the findings that are patched together, but not necessarily correct.
quote:One can not rely simply on knowledge of genetic or human haplotype information if one doesn't know how it correlates with the physical anthropological, archaeological and other historical evidence. Ehret has extensive background with with relation to all of this subject matter in the region.
Then he ought to know that the people of the Capsian culture display traits that make them a loose branch of their own, with minimal osteological ties to contemporary Egyptian and Sudanese material, and going from what can be inferred from the Anthropological work that has accumulated so far, there are probably minimal ties between Capsian and ancestral Abysinnians and Somali's as well.
Though we don't know if the ancient Horner skeletal material is ancestral to Abysinnians/Somali's, its extremely unlikely that the limb proportions of the latter groups fall outside of the Sub Saharan range, like the limb proportions of the people of the Capsian culture do.
quote:As you have accused him of making "rudimentary errors" I am of course assuming you have a background similar to his
C'mon Dana, you know as well as I do that doesn't make any sense. Appealing to authority has no currency when addressing me.
quote:I would be happy to look at some of your research as well.
Already cited some of the research I had used to come to my conclusions.
quote:I am particularly interested in what you have concluded the supposed "ancestral Somalis Ethiopians " may have looked like and where you suppose they were.
This cannot be inferred from the skeletal record. The ancient remains in the Horn may, or may not, belong to the ancestors of modern day Cushitic speakers. If the idea that Mushabeans spread Afrasan lineages and languages to the Near East, as proposed by Ehret, holds true, one might get an idea of what ancestral Somali's/Abyssinians looked like by looking at some of the Natufian remains that don't seem to be as admixed with local Levantine groups.
Pan Grave (Medjay) remains might also offer clues, since they originate ethnically in the same area as the area that is proposed by Ehret as the putative urheimhat of Proto-Afrasan, and also because we don't have reason to doubt that the Medjay spoke an ancient version of Bedawi.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I think its wrong to identify Proto-Berbers, or even Proto-Chadians (exclusively) with the Capsian culture. There were obviously lineages in Northern Africa that predate the onset of the Holocene. Why is Ehret making such rudimentary errors? The typical Berber paternal NRY marker E-M81, which may be used to identify their expansion into North Africa, originated less than 6000 years ago.
I was thinking the same thing-- Berber lineages only date back to the Neolithic whereas Capsian culture is older. In fact the Capsian culture began around 10,000 B.C.E. and ended 6,000 B.C.E. right when 'Berber' lineages appeared in the area. Capsian Culture is the direct descendant of the Oranian a.k.a. 'Iberomaurusian' Culture 18,000-11,000 B.C.E.
quote:-Afrasan speakers are NOT the original people of the wider Sahara.
Well according to Ehret they are not! Proto-Afrasans originated only in the eastern Sahara around the Red Sea coasts.
quote:-Despite their language having commonalities with Semitic and Berber languages, the core of the Ancient Egyptian population was probably much more related to the indigenous Northeast African people, who predate those languages, and who may be exemplified by Nazlet Khater. Their ancestry probably had much more affinity with contemporary hunter gatherer Africans all over Sub Saharan Africa, than to ancestral Ethiopians and Somali's and Berber speakers, who seem to be in their own lane, with much of their ancestry being specific to the section of Africa they inhabit, and who are also partially descended from the OOA population(s). This relationship of Palaeolithic Egyptians to contemporary Sub Saharan Africans was not only shown skeletally by Pinhasi, but can also been seen in numerous other ways, such as the presence of severe cases of sickle cell in predynastic Egypt, blood type similarities with groups with Sub-Saharan affinity (Harratin) to dynastic Egyptians, and the latest evidence being stong alleles matches between Egyptians and groups literally all over Sub-Saharan Africa, from Pygmies, to San, and other groups who now reside below the equator.
I agree. Let's not forget the presence of hg B in Egypt as well which is also correlated to paleolithic Sub-Saharan populations.
quote:-During the Holocene, we get the migration of Proto-Afrasan people towards the Nile Valley, which is why we have their lineages and languages (Medjay, Ancient Egyptian, Berber) in Egypt, the Middle East and possibly all three languages in Ancient Sudan as well. These Holocenic demographic changes are what cause people to think that the core Egyptian population must have been genetically identical to Proto-Afrasan speakers, even though Neolithic Egyptians/Northern Sudanese display numerous signs of local differentiation, consistent with above described relatively distant relationship of most Ancient Egyptians to ancestral Somali's and Ethiopians.
I think you're on to something here. So what about pharaonic origins in the Eastern Deserts per scholars like Toby Wilkinson? Do you think such origins are associated with early Afrasian speakers??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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like Ironlion said this is make believe linguistics. All of this is bs.
The idea that Proto-Chado-Berber existed is ludicris. The Berber languages are the result, of the Vandal/Germanic invasion of North Africa.The Berbers are very recent migrants into North Africa as maintained by Diop.
Egyptian is a lingua franca. You guys act as though the Horners speak languages close to Egyptian--but in reality Niger-Congo languages are closer to Egyptian than Semitic.
This makes the idea that a family of languages called Afro-Asiatic pure fantasy.
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Proto-Afrasian is a joke.In many books on Afrasian languages, the proto-terms for this language are primarially semitocentric.
Both Ehret(1995) and Orel/Stolbova have reconstructed Proto-Afrsian. A comparison of the 217 linguistic sets used to demonstrate Proto-Afrasian lexica only 59 agree. Of Ehret's 1011 entries 619 are incompatible with Orel/Stolbova, while only 175 are complimentary.
Less than 6% of the cognate sets of Ehret were proposed by Orel/Stolbova and only 17% are complimentary. This illustrates the imaginary relationship that exist between the so-called Afrasian languages.
Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.
This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.
Radcliffe commenting on these text observed:
quote: Both sources reconstruct lexical relationships in the attested languages as going back to derivational relationships in the proto-language. (In at least one case OS also reconstruct a derivational relationship-- an Arabic singular-plural pair qarya(tun), qura(n)-- as going back to lexical ones in Proto-Afroasiatic, reconstructions 1568, 1589.) E does this in a thorough-going way and the result is proto-language in which the basic vocabulary consists of a set of polysemous verbal roots with abstract and general meanings, while verbs with more specific meanings, and almost all nouns are derived by suffixation. Further all consonants in this language can serve as suffixes. I would argue that both points are violations of the uniformitarian principle. In general the underived, basic vocabulary of a language and specific and concrete, while abstract words are formed by derivation. Further it is rare for the full consonant inventory of a language to be used in its productive derivational morphology. Finally, given the well-known homorganic cooccurence restrictions on Afroasiatic roots (Greenberg 1950, Bender 1974), each suffix would have to have at least one allomorph at a different point of articulation and a hideously complex system of dissimilation rules would be needed to account for their distribution. E’s justification for this is revealing “With respect to triconsonantal roots in Semitic, a[n] ... explanation of the third consonant as lexicalized pre-proto-Semitic suffixal morphemes has now been put forward (Ehret 1989).... It has been applied here without apology because, quite simply it works.” This is the worst possible argument in favor of the hypothesis. As the above calculations have shown, such a procedure should indeed work quite well as a way of generating random noise.
posted
^ YOU of all people can't be talking about a scholar's work being b.s. So you expect us to take your word and your works over that of Ehret? You who claims Berber is European in origin while Dravidian is African (Mande)??! LMAOPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: The study of language, like the study of history, falls within the realm of Social Science and Social Science is heavily imbued with ideology. Contrast this with Applied Science which is virtually void of ideology - who debates whether or not 2 + 2 = 4?
The modern classification of languages began in Western European society. The grouping of "Indo-European" as a separate and distinct group began as an abstract notion of a European family that had to be proven; the "Indo" part could have just as easily been called "Aryo" for Aryan; the Aryans being Iran, India (Hindu), etc. By the same token, the grouping of Niger-Congo also began as an abstract notion to enforce the ideology of a distinct Africa-south of the Sahara!
Ideological reaction to this 'Europeanization' of languages can be seen in recent moves by some people in South Africa who want to change the name "Bantu" into something else because of its negative use during Apartheid...the next step could be the ban of the word Kaffir (non-Muslim) because it too, has been 'Europeanized' into a racial pejorative...
Afro-Asiatic; Afrasan; Hamito-Semitic are all aberrations of Western European pseudo-social science because:
a) The birth of the Semitic languages was in the environs of modern day Ethiopia
b) The other divisions of this "Afro-Asian" language are also indigenous to Africa!
c) None of these grouped languages, including Arabic, had an origin outside of Africa.
And were it not for ideology, this phylum would simply be called African.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: The gist of my opening statement, but only implied is that we should stop parroting this pseudo-scientific nonsense! One shouldn't suffer the delusion that using these terms demonstrates ones 'learnedness' of the subject, rather it demonstrates a naivety...
In applied sciences this seldom is the case:
ie, Electronics
Knowing that the farad is a unit of capacitance...and named after this English physicist guy Michael Faraday...picoFarad, microFarad...
or that the collector, base, and emitter are the names for the terminals of a transistor...
or, in Computer(ese)
Knowing that a Terabyte = approximately one trillion bytes...
demonstrates a familiarity with the subject. -- this does not work so easily in the ideological minefields of social science. Thus to parrot the expression "Afro-Asiatic" or any of its variances is the equivalent of wearing the Dunce cap!
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I think its wrong to identify Proto-Berbers, or even Proto-Chadians (exclusively) with the Capsian culture. There were obviously lineages in Northern Africa that predate the onset of the Holocene. Why is Ehret making such rudimentary errors? The typical Berber paternal NRY marker E-M81, which may be used to identify their expansion into North Africa, originated less than 6000 years ago.
I was thinking the same thing-- Berber lineages only date back to the Neolithic whereas Capsian culture is older. In fact the Capsian culture began around 10,000 B.C.E. and ended 6,000 B.C.E. right when 'Berber' lineages appeared in the area. Capsian Culture is the direct descendant of the Oranian a.k.a. 'Iberomaurusian' Culture 18,000-11,000 B.C.E.
Indeed, whats interesting is that the starting date of the latter culture fits nicely with Frigi's analysis of Tunesian maternal lineages. L3* was said to have been brought from Eastern Africa to North Africa around 20.000 years ago, though pre-berbers people in Nothern Africa are undoubtedly much older, and related to Capsian people. Old modern North African lineages such as U6 strongly point to a very ancient presence of pre-Berbers in the region, and we also wouldn't expect Capsians to group away from Africans in limb proportians and cranio-facial affinity if the ancestral Capsian people were only 20ky migrants from Eastern Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QUOTE]-During the Holocene, we get the migration of Proto-Afrasan people towards the Nile Valley, which is why we have their lineages and languages (Medjay, Ancient Egyptian, Berber) in Egypt, the Middle East and possibly all three languages in Ancient Sudan as well. These Holocenic demographic changes are what cause people to think that the core Egyptian population must have been genetically identical to Proto-Afrasan speakers, even though Neolithic Egyptians/Northern Sudanese display numerous signs of local differentiation, consistent with above described relatively distant relationship of most Ancient Egyptians to ancestral Somali's and Ethiopians.
I think you're on to something here. So what about pharaonic origins in the Eastern Deserts per scholars like Toby Wilkinson? Do you think such origins are associated with early Afrasian speakers??
I don't think there are enough remains that would allow one to objectively make a statement in that regard, although body measurements might be a useful marker in the future. Medjay people, and Nubians in general, were, on average, somewhat taller than Predynastic Egyptians, probably because they were they were still very much living a hunter gatherer life style.
If the Predynastic Eastern Desert remains turn out to show more affinity with the later Medjay people in this regard, we may be able to conclude from that that they were more similar to modern groups in the Eastern Desert (e.g., Beja) than to Ancient Egyptians.
The thing that complicates the answer to your question is that (Southern) Egyptians didn't live exclusively along the Nile before and around the time of the Badarians. They were semi nomads, and so, there is no telling where they might have went other than the most obvious Plata's, Wadi's and Oases. So, even if the remains turn out to show more affinity to Medjay people than to Predynastic Egyptians, you still can't rule out the drawings were made by Predynastic Egyptians
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
The Vandal Origin of the Berbers Cheikh Anta Diop makes it clear that the Berbers are not related to Palaeo-Africans. In Libya Antiqua, Diop explains how the original Libu and Tehenu were blacks; and that the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea who arrived in the area around 1200 BC and fought Ramses III.
He makes it clear that the majority of the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea See:Diop, C A , "Formation of the Berber Branch", In Libya Antiqua,(ed) by UNESCO ,(Paris:UNESCO 1986) page 69 and C.A. Diop Civilization or Barbarism (Lawrence Hill Com.1991, p.34).
The Berber languages support a European origin for this group. When I talk about the Berbers I am not talking about the Tuareg, I am talking about the light skinned European looking Berbers.
The Berber language is related to Germanic languages. And the Germanic languages are native to Germany.
The Vandal rule of North Africa, explains the Germanic substratum influence in Berber. This linguistic connection results from the German rule in North Africa for 400 years. The Vandal rule in North Africa explains the origin of the white speakers of this "language" family.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the reVerse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European origin, especially Vandal origin. Official rule Vandal rule lated only a 100+ years, but bthe 20-80k Vandals who settled Africa had a lasting influence in the North Africa.
The experts say that the Berber languages (I am not including Tuareg) has elements from numerous European languages I have never seen any discussion of Berber relations to East African languages, Berber languages are related to the Semitic group due to the Arabic speakers that surround them.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69). [/b]
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
As most of you have already figured out, this entire board consists of ONE sick degenerate that has created ficticious names to talk to itself in. Just a few of these names are CLYDE WINTERS, MIKE111 and THE LIONESS. however ALL of the posters on this site EXCEPT for MYSELF are this one sick degenerate! There is NOONE on this site that can be trusted but me. The only links on this site that can be trusted are the ones that I provide for you! Here is a link that you can use as a resource and can be trusted! http://www.raceandhistory.com/
When you have finished reading this post check out this site to learn the truth about history and ALL civilzations. Do NOT be fooled by the real history link that the filthy monkey created using the race and history link as a guide. This is the ONLY site that can be trusted http://www.raceandhistory.com/
Isnt it funny how this one little link destroys all of the charts, graphs and pics that the filthy monkey lies to us with? You now understand why the filthy monkey continues to spam the board with photos of modern day populations that had absolutely NOTHING to do with ancient Egypt
The next time one of these degenerates tries to tell you a lie just refer the moonkey to the latest DNA analysis on the ancient Egyptians, and then tell the faggot to crawl back in its cave!
The pig just keeps showing us why these crackers should not exist! They have genetically recessive genes and ion 50 years they will be the minority in BRITAIN!! THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY DIE OUT LIKE THE UNATURAL ABOMINATIONS THAT THEY ARE!
Look at the low IQ monkey with its charts and pictures LOL tHE dna analysis does not matter to this monkey, because it lives in a world of fantasy! lol
Folks, the monkey performs at my commend. I am this monkeys master!But then again all one needs to do is take a cursury look at this monkeys youtube page to understand the tenuous grip on reality that this monkey has! LOL http://www.youtube.com/user/phoenician7
When the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians what does a low IQ monkey do???
The low IQ monkey shows pictures and charts and munbles on and on about haplogroups while completely ignoring what the DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians actually says LOL
the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. Thats what the DNA says, thats what the science says. This monkey in all of its fake names is very pathetic isnt it?
posted
The original inhabitants of the Sahara, the Proto-Saharans where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC.
This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. (Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b, 1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians.
Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic culture and the growth of its population". (emphasis that of author) The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).
The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.
The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.
The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.
The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.
Reference:
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,A.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan.The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan(Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
AS YOU CAN SEE THIS FILTHY PINK ASSED MONKEY NO LONGER CARES THAT I AM MAKING A MOCKERY OF IT! HAHAHA! I HAVE TAKEN THIS FILTHY REPROBATES DIGNITY AND NOW IT PERFORMS FOR US ALL! LMBAO!!!!
As most of you have already figured out, this entire board consists of ONE sick degenerate that has created ficticious names to talk to itself in. Just a few of these names are CLYDE WINTERS, MIKE111 and THE LIONESS. however ALL of the posters on this site EXCEPT for MYSELF are this one sick degenerate! There is NOONE on this site that can be trusted but me. The only links on this site that can be trusted are the ones that I provide for you! Here is a link that you can use as a resource and can be trusted! http://www.raceandhistory.com/
When you have finished reading this post check out this site to learn the truth about history and ALL civilzations. Do NOT be fooled by the real history link that the filthy monkey created using the race and history link as a guide. This is the ONLY site that can be trusted http://www.raceandhistory.com/
Isnt it funny how this one little link destroys all of the charts, graphs and pics that the filthy monkey lies to us with? You now understand why the filthy monkey continues to spam the board with photos of modern day populations that had absolutely NOTHING to do with ancient Egypt. THE LINK BELOW IS THE LATEST DNA ANALYSIS OF THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS! THE DNA THAT WAS USED WAS THE ""ANCIENT" DNA OF THE 18TH DYNASTY RATHER THAN MODERN DNA OF THE INVADERS OR GRECO ROMAN DNA. THIS ANCIENT DNA OF THE 18TH DYNASTY CLEARLY SHOWS THEM TO BE BANTU PEOPLES! LOOK FOR YOURSELF! HEHEHEHE!
The next time one of these degenerates tries to tell you a lie just refer the moonkey to the latest DNA analysis on the ancient Egyptians, and then tell the faggot to crawl back in its cave!
The pig just keeps showing us why these crackers should not exist! They have genetically recessive genes and ion 50 years they will be the minority in BRITAIN!! THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY DIE OUT LIKE THE UNATURAL ABOMINATIONS THAT THEY ARE!
Look at the low IQ monkey with its charts and pictures LOL tHE dna analysis does not matter to this monkey, because it lives in a world of fantasy! lol
Folks, the monkey performs at my commend. I am this monkeys master!But then again all one needs to do is take a cursury look at this monkeys youtube page to understand the tenuous grip on reality that this monkey has! LOL http://www.youtube.com/user/phoenician7
When the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians what does a low IQ monkey do???
The low IQ monkey shows pictures and charts and munbles on and on about haplogroups while completely ignoring what the DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians actually says LOL
the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. Thats what the DNA says, thats what the science says. This monkey in all of its fake names is very pathetic isnt it?
posted
Hyksos had intimate relations with the Kushites when they ruled Egypt. They may have had a strong relationship with the Kushites because the Hyksos were originally Tehenu.
The Tehenu in Anatolia
Some of the Tehenu or Kushites settled Anatolia. Some of the major Anatolian Kushite tribes were the Kaska and Hatti speakers who spoke non-IE languages called Khattili. The gods of the Hattic people were Kasku and Kusuh (< Kush).
The Hattic people, may be related to the[b] Hatiu, one of the Delta Tehenu tribes. Many archaeologist believe that the Tehenu people were related to the C-Group people. The Hattic language is closely related to African and Dravidian languages for example:
English ……Hattic …..Egyptian…….. Malinke (Mande language)
powerful ……ur………. wr'great,big' ………fara
protect…….. $uh……… swh …………………solo-
head …………tup ………tp ……………tu 'strike the head'
up,upper….. tufa ………..tp……………… dya, tu 'raising ground'
to stretch put… pd ………pe,……………….. bamba
o prosper …….falfat …..-- …………………..find'ya
pour ……………duq …….---………………….. du 'to dispense'
child …………..pin………,pinu………………… den
Mother ………..na-a ………--…………………….. na
lord …………….sa ………..--………………………. sa
place ………….-ka………… -ka
The languages have similar syntax Hattic le fil 'his house'; Mande a falu 'his father's house'. This suggest that the first Anatolians were Kushites, a view supported by the Hattic name for themselves: Kashka.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The Tehenu belonged to the C-Group and were predominately Niger-Congo speakers. They joined the Egyptian empire during the New Kingdom and lived in the Southern nomes.
Many researchers have recognized that many African civilizations share common cultural features and words with ancient Egypt. This poses the question: "Why do Egyptians and Black Africans share a similar civilization"?.
This question has been answered by Wally. Wally has proven that Egpyt was a Pan-African civilization which was multinational and included many African nationalities.
Secondly, Wally has proven that egyptian was a lingua franca used to unite the multinational Pan-African Egypt with a single means of communication.
These findings by Wally means that we have to see the shared linguistic and cultural features of Black Africans are the result of many of these african nationals living in a Pan-African Egypt.
Great work Wally!
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64). The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman. In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliograpy
Adler,J.(1991 September 23). "African Dreams", Newsweek, pp.42- 45. This magazine articles discussed the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism.
Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This articles explains the African origin of the Libyans. It has several very good illustrations of Blacks in ancient Sahara.
_______.(1989). "Le Lecon Dravidienne",Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines, no.9:7-58. This paper discussed the origins of the Dravidian and their relationship to Africans.
Asante,M.K. (1990) Kemet,Afrocentricity,and Knowledge. Trenton ,NJ:Africa World Press. This book provides the theoretical foundations for africalogical studies.
_________ (1991). "The Afrocentric idea in Education",Journal of Negro Education,60(2):170-180. The author explains the importance of the Afrocentric field of study for enrichment of the social studies curricula.
__________.(December 1991/January 1992). "Afrocentric Curriculum".Educational Leadership, pp.28-31. This article explains the practical reasons supporting the institution of an Afrocentric curriculum within the context of multiculturalism.
Baines,J. (11 August,1991). "Was Civilization made in Africa?" The New York Times Review of Books,pp.12-13. This article attempts to review the work of Bernal and Diop in a negative light.
Bernal,M. (1987). Black Athena. New York. Volume 1. Here the author explains his theory that there is need for a new historiography for the Mediterranean which recognizes the multicultural origins of Greece. The author also returns to the ancient model which claimed that the Egyptians were "Blacks".
________. (1991). Black Athena. New York. Volume 2. In this volume Bernal outlines his theory that the founders of Greece were Hyksos (Semitic) people from Egypt.
Bonnet,C. (1986). Kerma: Territoire et Metropole. Cairo: Instut Francais D'Archeologie Orientale du Caire. This is a fine examination of the Kerma culture of Nubia which existed in Nubia before the Egyptians established rule in this area.
Diop,C.A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. (ed. & Trans) by Mercer Cook, Westport:Lawrence Hill & Company. This book outlines Diop's theory of the African origin of Egyptian civilization.
_________.(1977). Parente genetique de l'Egyptien Pharaonique et des Languaes Negro-Africaines. Dakar: IFAN ,Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines. This is a very good discussion of the extensive morphological and phonological evidence of unity between Wolof and Egyptian.
__________.(1978) The Cultural Unity of Black Africa. Chicago:
Third World Press. This book details the precolombian character of African civilizations, and explains the common cultural expressions they share.
___________.(1986). "Formation of the Berber Branch". In Libya Antiqua. (ed.) by Unesco,(Paris: UNESCO) pp.69-73. In this article Diop explains that the original inhabitants of Libya were Blacks.
____________.(1987). Precolonial Black Africa. (trans. ) by Harold Salemson, Westport: Lawrence Hill & Company. In this book Diop explains the origin and connections between the major Western Sudanic empires and states. These states are compared to European states.
____________.(1988). Nouvelles recherches sur l'Egyptien ancient et les langues Negro-Africaines Modernes. Paris: Presence Africaine. This book provides a number of Diop's theories regarding the relationship between Black-African and Egyptian languages.
_____________(1991). Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology. (trans.) by Yaa-Lengi Meema Ngemi and (ed.) by H.J. Salemson and Marjoliiw de Jager, Westport:Lawrence Hill and Company. This book details Diop's theory of the genetic model for the study of African civilization. It also gives a fine discussion of the architecture, mathematics and philosophy of the ancient Egyptians and other African people.
Farid,El-Yahky. (1985). "The Sahara and Predynastic Egypt an Overview".The Journal for the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. This paper gives a detailed discussion of the affinities between Egyptian civilization and the Saharan civilizations which we call Proto-Saharan. The evidence presented in this paper support the Saharan origin of the Egyptians.
Galassi, . (1942). Tehenu. Rome. Galassi explains the history of the Tehenu people forerunners of the Libyans.
Graves, Robert. (1980). The Greek Myths. Middlesex:Peguin Books Ltd. 2 volumes. In this volume we see a detailed account of the founding Myths of the ancient Greeks as recorded in Greek literature.
Hopper, R.J. (1976). The Early Greeks. New York:Harper & Row Pub. Hopper gives an informative narative on the history of the ancient Greeks.
Hochfield,S. & Riesfstahl,E.(1978). (Eds.) Africa in Antiquity: The Arts of Nubia and the Sudan. New York: Brooklyn Museum. 2 vols. This is a fine source of information on the Kushite and Meroitic empires. It also provides many well researched articles and photographs of the Kushites. The evidence in this book shows that the Egyptians and Kushites were one.
Hughes,R. (1992, February 3). "The Frying of America". TIME ,pp.44-49. Hughes discussed the threat of multiculturalism to unity of the American people.
Jelinek,J. (1985). "Tillizahren,the Key Site of the Fezzanese Rock Art". Anthropologie (Brno),23(3):223-275. This paper gives a stimulating account of the rock art of the Sahara and the important role the C-Group people played in the creation of this art.
Levine,M.M. (April 1992). "The use and abuse of Black Athena", American Historical Review,pp. 440-460. This articles attacks Bernal and the use of Black Athena to estabish a new paradigm for ancient history.
Lefkowitz,M. (1992,February 10). "Not out of Africa". The New Republic, pp.29-36. This text deals with the hyptohesis that Greek civilization came from Africa. Lefkowitz contends that Africans failed to play an important role in Greecian civilization.
Marriott,M. (1991,August 11). "As a Discipline Advances, Questions Arise on Scholarship". The New York Times. Marriott gives an excellent discussion of the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism. It provides a good discussion of the players pro and against this field of intellectual inquiry.
Martel, E. (December 1991/January 1992). "How valid are the Port-land Baseline Essays". Educational Leadership, pp.20-23. Martel gives reasons in this article why he believes that many of the claims of Afrocentrists are wrong.
__________.(1991). "Teachers's Corner:Ancient Africa and the Port-land Curriculum Resource",Anthro Notes: National Museum of Natural History(Smithsonian) Bulletin for Teachers 13, pp.2-6. This text explains why Afrocentrism should be kept out of the schools until it conforms with accepted Eurocentric views about Africana affairs and history. He does argue that the Egyptians were a multiculutural society.
Moitt,B. (1989). "Chiekh Anta Diop and the African Diaspora: Historical Continuity and Socio-Cultural Symbolism". Presence Africaine, no. 149-150:347-360. This is an excellent analysis of the influence of Diop on africalogical studies and the European attacks against his research.
Nicholson,D. (1992, September 23). "Afrocentrism and the Tribalization of America". The Washington Post, B-l.Nicholson makes the claim that Afrocentrism is causing the fragmentation of America.
Okafor,V.O. (1991). " Diop and the African Origin of Civiliza- tion:An Afrocentric Analysis". Journal of Black Studies 22(2):252-268. This book offers excellent guidelines on implimenting the research methods of Diop in africological studies.
Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization ".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344. This short article provides a wealth of historical and lexical evidence for the African origination of Greccian heroes, literature and civilization.
___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.: Black Classic Press. This book provides a short discussion of the important role of Blacks in the rise of civilization around the world.
Petrie,W.M.F. (1921). Corpus of Prehistoric Pottery. London.Petrie provides the first detailed categorization of Egyptian pottery and an informative account on the origination of Egypt.
Pounder, R.L. (1992,April) "Black Athena 2:History without Rules" American Historical Review, 461-464. This articles attacks the credibility of Bernal's ,Black Athena.
Quellec,J-L le. (1985). "Les Gravures Rupestres Du Fezzan (Libye)". L'Anthropologie, 89 (3):365-383. This text deals comprehensively with the dates and spread of specific art themes in the ancient Sahara.
Raphael, . 1947. Prehistoric Pottery . New York: Pantheon Book. Raphael provides a thorough explanation of the ceramics of the predynastic Egyptians.
Ravitch,D. (1990,Summer). "Multiculturalism:E Pluribus Plures". The American Scholar, pp.337-354. Ravitch argues that multiculturalism is causing America to become ethnicallly polarized, while we abandon many of the values that unite Americans.
Schlesinger,A.M. (1992). The Disuniting of America: Reflections on a Multicultural Society. New York: Norton. Schlesinger argues that multiculturalism is bringing about the rise of ethnocentrism in the United States.
Snowden,F. (1976). "Ethiopians and the Greco-Roman World". In The African Diaspora. Washington: Howard University Press. In this paper Snowden discusses the role of Ethiopian slaves in Grecce.
___________. (1992, March 4). "Blacks as seen by Ancient Egyptians, Greek and Roman Artists". (Lecture) Chicago: Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. In this lecture Snowden continues his theory that the only Blacks in Egyptian and Classical art were slaves.
Tounkara,B. (1989). "Problematique du comparatisme egyptien ancien/langues africaines (wolof)". Presence Africaine,nos. 149-150: 313-320. This book discusses the linguistic relationship of wolof and Egyptian.
Trigger,B.G. (1987). "Egypt: A Fledging Nation". The Journal of the Society for the Study Egyptian Antiquities, 17 (1/2): 58-65. Trigger documents the rise of Egyptian civilization in the Sahara and Nubia.
____________. (1992). "Brown Athena: A Post Processual Goddess". Current Anthropology, 33(1): 121-123. This article focuses on the misuse of the book Black Athena as a tool to claim the Egyptians were Blacks.
Vandier,J. (1952). Manuel d'archeologie Egyptienne. Paris. This is a fine examination of the archaeology of Egypt.
Williams,B. (1987). The A-Group Royal Cemetery at Qustul: Cemetery L. Chicago: The Oriental Institute University of Chicago. This excellent text reviews the important Qustul cemetery, which provides a detailed account of the rise of the first world empire in Nubia.
Winkler, H.A. (1938). Rock Drawings of Southern Upper Egypt. London. 2 volumes. This book gives numerous examples of rock art which point to an Egyptian origin in Nubia.
Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima,(New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215. This paper discusses the Manding origin for many of the so-called Libyco-Berber inscriptions and explains how these inscriptions can be read. It makes it clear that literacy was widespread in Africa 5000 years ago.
__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18. This rich historical account refutes the idea that Greece was founded by the Indo-European speakers. Winters argues that credit should be given to the African settlers of Anatolia from Libya, Egypt and Palestine.
_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8. In this article Winters' discussed the famous Greeks like Socrates, that were of African/Pelasgian origin.
________. (1984). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans". Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33. This paper provides insights into the long history of Blacks in Europe, including the Old Europeans, Danubians and other groups.
_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and Present, 2(1):13-19. The author describes the unity of the writing systems used by the Sumerians, Minoans, Egyptians and Harappans. He shows that these scripts have a common ideological origin and that they can all be read due to the genetic unity of the langauges spoken by these people.
__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9. Winters uses linguistics , historical and archaeological evidence to argue that the Dravidian, Manding and Sumerian speakers originated in the highland regions of the Sahara which he called the "Fertile African Crescent". Many of the culture terms of these groups are discussed and the proto- terms are reconstructed. It also provides numerous maps to delienate the migrations of these people from their archetype homeland.
__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36. This paper provides an analysis of the common roots toponyms found in Asia of African origin.
__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(1):98-127. Winters discusses the genesis of the common culture of the founders of ancient civilizations in Africa and Asia. It also refutes the myth that the Sumerian and Dravidian languages are unrelated to any other languages on earth. Here you will find a detailed explanation of the morphological, semantic and lexical affinities shared by these langauges that indicate their genetic unity.
__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127. This anthropological and linguistic account of the prehistoric linguistic-history of South and Central Asia outlines the fallacy of Parpola's theory for an Indo-European founding of the Harappan civilization. He provides numerous examples of the Dravidian and African influences on the Indo-European languages.
__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144. This paper discussed the settlement of Asia by African people 4500 years ago. Special attention is placed on the type and expression of African civilization in ancient Asia.
___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l. This is a detailed account of the Proto-Saharan origin of the Elamites, Dravidians, Sumerians, Egyptians and other Black African groups. We also find here a well developed illumination of the cultural features shared by these genetically related groups.
Yurco,F. (1989,September/October). "Were the ancient Egyptians Black?". Biblical Archaeological Review, 15(5):24-29,58.Yurco argues that the Egyptians have always been "light skinned", and that they got darker as you went south into Nubia. Wainwright, G. 1962. The Meshwesh", JEA 48, 89-99.
Osing,J. 1980. "Libyen, Libyer", LA III, 1015-1033.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
The white-Berbers are descendants of the Meshwesh, who are descendants of the People of the Sea; and the Vandals.
Since the Meshwesh only arrived in Delta as the peoples of the Sea, and later we have the Vandals influencing the Berbers there is no way to associate the Tehenu people, with the contemporary Berbers.
As a result the idea of a ancient relationship between contemporary Berber speakers and any African group is ludicris.
posted
^ Some individuals among the Meshwesh were white not all the Meshwesh were.
While whites from across the Mediterranean may have made their way into North Africa and assimilated among the native tribes, that still does not change the fact that Berber originated IN Africa and is part of Afrasian which DOES exist despite your pleas and invalid evidence to the contrary.
Everything else is pseudo-scholarly nonsense and will be ignored. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I was thinking the same thing-- Berber lineages only date back to the Neolithic whereas Capsian culture is older. In fact the Capsian culture began around 10,000 B.C.E. and ended 6,000 B.C.E. right when 'Berber' lineages appeared in the area. Capsian Culture is the direct descendant of the Oranian a.k.a. 'Iberomaurusian' Culture 18,000-11,000 B.C.E.
Indeed, whats interesting is that the starting date of the latter culture fits nicely with Frigi's analysis of Tunisian maternal lineages. L3* was said to have been brought from Eastern Africa to North Africa around 20,000 years ago, though pre-berbers people in Nothern Africa are undoubtedly much older, and related to Capsian people. Old modern North African lineages such as U6 strongly point to a very ancient presence of pre-Berbers in the region, and we also wouldn't expect Capsians to group away from Africans in limb proportians and cranio-facial affinity if the ancestral Capsian people were only 20ky migrants from Eastern Africa.
The ancestor of the Oranian Culture is the Halfan Culture (24,000-15,000 B.C.E.) which began in the Egypto-Sudanese area and spread northwest giving rise to the Oranian as well as northeast giving rise to the Kebaran Culture in the Levant (18,000-10,000 B.C.E).
What's surprising is that even Mathilda admitted as much!: "This is me looking for the earliest appearance of the Halfan derived Kebaran culture arriving in Israel. The Kebarans appeared to have moved out of Northern Nubia and up as far as Syria, and as far as the Afalou site site IN North Africa. This seems to have been because of a new found taste for eating wild grasses which gave them access to a new food source, allowing greater population density which leads to a popultion expansion. All the North African populations from Algeria to Israel show varying levels of sub-Saharan ancestry at this point, but the population didn’t seem to reach as far as Morocco, or into Turkey."
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I think you're on to something here. So what about pharaonic origins in the Eastern Deserts per scholars like Toby Wilkinson? Do you think such origins are associated with early Afrasian speakers??
I don't think there are enough remains that would allow one to objectively make a statement in that regard, although body measurements might be a useful marker in the future. Medjay people, and Nubians in general, were, on average, somewhat taller than Predynastic Egyptians, probably because they were they were still very much living a hunter gatherer life style.
I find it strange you say this, considering that most hunter-gatherers are relatively short. Usually tall stature is associated with pastoralism. I'm not saying that these people were necessarily pastoralists since this advancement in food production happened only later and farther west in the central Sahara. Also, reconstructed proto-Afrisian shows no evidence of animal domestication and only hunting and foraging. I will point out that the tall statures and even cranial features of the people in the Red Sea hills bear a striking resemblance to later peoples across the Red Sea in neolithic and Bronze Age Arabia as per sources cited by Dana.
quote:If the Predynastic Eastern Desert remains turn out to show more affinity with the later Medjay people in this regard, we may be able to conclude from that that they were more similar to modern groups in the Eastern Desert (e.g., Beja) than to Ancient Egyptians.
The thing that complicates the answer to your question is that (Southern) Egyptians didn't live exclusively along the Nile before and around the time of the Badarians. They were semi nomads, and so, there is no telling where they might have went other than the most obvious Plata's, Wadi's and Oases. So, even if the remains turn out to show more affinity to Medjay people than to Predynastic Egyptians, you still can't rule out the drawings were made by Predynastic Egyptians
Another thing that complicates things is that remains give no indication whatsoever about language or culture which is fluid and easily transmitted or adopted by different populations.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69). [/b]
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
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These are people who have adopted Berber-dialects and are not even mentioned more than 500 years ago.
"Berbers" of 500 years ago are Masmuda, Goddala, Sanhaja, Ketama, Hawara, Zaghawa are only mentioned as black-skinned in all texts. I obviously also don't consider descendants of Vandals or European slaves and slave soldiers to be representative of the original Berbers. Since old European i.e. Basque type osteology wasn't part of the original Berber population as it is today among coastal populations speaking Berber as at Tizi-ouzou etc.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The tehenu and Meshwesh
The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).
The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.
Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).
The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.
The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".
The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64). The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu.
The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990. In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh
The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.
David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be chracteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these rtraits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).
It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.
The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman. In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
Annotated Bibliograpy
Adler,J.(1991 September 23). "African Dreams", Newsweek, pp.42- 45. This magazine articles discussed the controversey surrounding Afrocentrism.
Anselin,A.(1984). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue Martinique de Sciences Humaines,no. 2:31-50. This articles explains the African origin of the Libyans. It has several very good illustrations of Blacks in ancient Sahara.
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The Tehenu portrayed here above and appearing in Lepsius canon are in my view the brown "brun" Libyans of in Oric Bates texts. The Lepsius Canon also depicts Libyans in a color that was evidently not even realistically reflected in the tomb paintings as shown by the many posters on this forum and as sstated to me by Charles Finch who saw the tombs in person stating the Libyans there were Maasai colored and that Lepsius must have deliberately misrepresented these folk.
The Europeans that came down in the are wearing European hairstyles and not African Fulani ones. The Temehu and Tehenou appearing before the late dynasties are basically the same brown color as are in fact several groups of the period of the Ramses and Seti. If the braid-wearing Temehou that were creamy white existed they were not shown in the tomb Lepsius copied from. Least of all did any of them look Germanic.
Temehou or Djemehou was indeed a generic name used in late dynastic times for populations that were both European (people of the Sea) and African or Afro-Asiatic west of the Nile extending into the Levant. Originally the bulk of the Libyans appear to have been the exact same color as Ramessids. The "chiefs of the Meshwesh" of the Libyan dynasties 22nd and 23rd dynasties were likely their descendants.
Ancient typical Libyan
Ancient typical Libyans wearing the same costume as shown in Lepsius canon and the typical Afro-Libyan coiffure only known among the Fulani of Chad and Niger in recent times.
The ancient Libyans including those of the Libyan dynasties bore early and typical Berber names according to most books.
Libyan Osorkon's tomb chief of the "Meshwesh"
All Libyan dynasty rulers portrayed themselves the same color the Nubians and Ramessids did.
The "Soped" are likely the dark brown Esbet or Isabaten as they are now called - a group of Tuareg-speaking agriculturalists , if not the Ethiopian colored Asfodelodes mentioned by Diodorus Siculus in Sergi's book.
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posted
^ Dana, it's rather unfortunate but just as there are Euroloons, there are also Afroloons and Clyde is one of them.
The guy claims Berber languages to be Euoropean in origin due to a few typological similarities here and there despite the glaring differences in structure and vocabulary as well as the fact that Berber is not spoken in Europe and there's no evidence that it ever was. Meanwhile he claims Dravidian to be African in origin even though the Dravidian languages are not only farther removed geographically from Africa than is Europe, but again due to typological similarities in language despite the glaring difference in vocabulary and structure. You see the pattern here-- an Indian language group becomes African while an actual African language group becomes European.
It is pseudo-scholarly nuttiness at its worst.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Dana, it's rather unfortunate but just as there are Euroloons, there are also Afroloons and Clyde is one of them.
The guy claims Berber languages to be Euoropean in origin due to a few typological similarities here and there despite the glaring differences in structure and vocabulary as well as the fact that Berber is not spoken in Europe and there's no evidence that it ever was. Meanwhile he claims Dravidian to be African in origin even though the Dravidian languages are not only farther removed geographically from Africa than is Europe, but again due to typological similarities in language despite the glaring difference in vocabulary and structure. You see the pattern here-- an Indian language group becomes African while an actual African language group becomes European.
It is pseudo-scholarly nuttiness at its worst.
I do agree there are both AFroloons and Euronuts Djehuti but the Dravidian dialects as I mentioned previously are thought to be structurally-related to African dialects by certain highly regarded Western and Dravidian scholars today. It is not Clyde's idea. Secondly, there are more reasons than just linguistic structural differences to either accept or reject a theory. Since I am not a linguistic specialist I can't speak with regard to the Vandalic influences on Berber. I am sure there is much impress in certain Berber dialects since there is definitely a strong biological and cultural influence among modern fair-skinned Berber speakers.
Never-the less, there is obviously too much documented historical, cultural, archaeological, evidence on the side that says the original Berbers were Africans or Afro-Asiatics with an African name whose dialects have been influenced by non-Berber speakers and not vice versa.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I think its wrong to identify Proto-Berbers, or even Proto-Chadians (exclusively) with the Capsian culture. There were obviously lineages in Northern Africa that predate the onset of the Holocene. Why is Ehret making such rudimentary errors? The typical Berber paternal NRY marker E-M81, which may be used to identify their expansion into North Africa, originated less than 6000 years ago.
-Afrasan speakers are NOT the original people of the wider Sahara.
-Despite their language having commonalities with Semitic and Berber languages, the core of the Ancient Egyptian population was probably much more related to the indigenous Northeast African people, who predate those languages, and who may be exemplified by Nazlet Khater. Their ancestry probably had much more affinity with contemporary hunter gatherer Africans all over Sub Saharan Africa, than to ancestral Ethiopians and Somali's and Berber speakers, who seem to be in their own lane, with much of their ancestry being specific to the section of Africa they inhabit, and who are also partially descended from the OOA population(s). This relationship of Palaeolithic Egyptians to contemporary Sub Saharan Africans was not only shown skeletally by Pinhasi, but can also been seen in numerous other ways, such as the presence of severe cases of sickle cell in predynastic Egypt, blood type similarities with groups with Sub-Saharan affinity (Harratin) to dynastic Egyptians, and the latest evidence being stong alleles matches between Egyptians and groups literally all over Sub-Saharan Africa, from Pygmies, to San, and other groups who now reside below the equator.
-During the Holocene, we get the migration of Proto-Afrasan people towards the Nile Valley, which is why we have their lineages and languages (Medjay, Ancient Egyptian, Berber) in Egypt, the Middle East and possibly all three languages in Ancient Sudan as well. These Holocenic demographic changes are what cause people to think that the core Egyptian population must have been genetically identical to Proto-Afrasan speakers, even though Neolithic Egyptians/Northern Sudanese display numerous signs of local differentiation, consistent with above described relatively distant relationship of most Ancient Egyptians to ancestral Somali's and Ethiopians.
one thing i don't know much about is linguistic connections of the ancient world. The one thing I do know about is the physical and biological afiliations of the Holocene North Afircans. There are considered two groups of Capsians one related physiologially to the Natufians and the other two the gracile Mediterranean or of ancient Sahara and Nubia.
Thus I am rather interested in where you have derived your information concerning the early Capsians. It was noticed long ago by archaeologists that the Capsian culture appears very similar to that practiced modern East Africans including both Nilotes and Cushitic speakers. This includes such details their usage of ostrich eggs, capping of their tombs with cattle horns, and many other features exclusive to the region. It is one of the important connections I had assumed led Ehret to conclude the Erthyraiotes were of Capsian origin which would mean they looked like the robust Natufian maechotoid types that dominated most of the Maghreb and for that matter AFrican landscape at that time.
As far I know and am concerned Berbers did not live in the last 6000 years in North Africa. People probably simliar to hte Haratin Badarian AFro-San type did however live there. While elongated types are not found anywhere until the Neolithic and thus we don't know where they originated. But the fact the Naqqada population shows so much similarity to the neolithic North African and Somali who appear to fit in between the early gracile North AFrican and elongated African type could very well link the Capsians to early Afro-san speakers.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Berber Languages
quote:
Introduction
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69). [/b]
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
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Germanic peoples in Kabylia are not the only Europeans that influenced the Berber-speakers.
Robert Brown put it well not too long ago - “The many European races, including the Vandals under Genseric, and the endless European slaves who, turning renegade, became absorbed into the population must have left their mark over the all the Barbary states” ( 1896). A History and Description of Africa: and of the notable things therein contained, 1. London: Haykluyt Society p. 203).
There is definitely no intelligibility between the dialects as a result of these foregn influences.
These foreign influences however would not have to do with the Masmuda, Sanhaja, Zaghawa, Ketama, Hawara, Djerawa, Zanata, or other descendants of these original black woolly-haired people known as Berbers in the texts.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Sorry tin cat, but I don't wear panties and Ehret is not confused at all unlike YOU! I doubt Ehret is under the control of YOUR Ashkenazi masters since there are some Ashkenazi elite would find it uncomfortable to know that their ancient language and culture that they claim is originally black African in origin.
So keep watching your silly ass out for dem Juus! LOL
Hebrew = Phoenician and the Phoenicians were Negros to my knowledge. As for the "jews" its fake, the whole story. There was no Jewish people in antiquity, their whole existence is based on a lie.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The white-Berbers are descendants of the Meshwesh, who are descendants of the People of the Sea; and the Vandals.
Since the Meshwesh only arrived in Delta as the peoples of the Sea, and later we have the Vandals influencing the Berbers there is no way to associate the Tehenu people, with the contemporary Berbers.
As a result the idea of a ancient relationship between contemporary Berber speakers and any African group is ludicris.
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I believe you are being too limited. Africans brought white slaves into the Maghreb from the time the Mauritanian Muslims struck spain and controlled much of the European Mediterranean in the 700 c.e. until about 1700s. One professor said a million whites were introduced as slaves into north africa in a one hundred year time span, and they brought slaves in for far long than just the 100 yrs he decided to look at. So the amount of whites that diluted that area is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't be shocked if these white slaves also contributed to the look of some Fulas today as well as some Igbos.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Sorry tin cat, but I don't wear panties and Ehret is not confused at all unlike YOU! I doubt Ehret is under the control of YOUR Ashkenazi masters since there are some Ashkenazi elite would find it uncomfortable to know that their ancient language and culture that they claim is originally black African in origin.
So keep watching your silly ass out for dem Juus! LOL
Hebrew = Phoenician and the Phoenicians were Negros to my knowledge. As for the "jews" its fake, the whole story. There was no Jewish people in antiquity, their whole existence is based on a lie.
The Jews or Judaeans were and are people of the Wahd, once worshippers of Wahd (Yehwd) the lion deity of the Minaeans (Meunim Judges 10:12). Africans were always totemists. The Kahanim definitely existed in Khaibar in Hijaz (Chobar - Ezekiel 3) as late as the 16th century and came from this region Wahid (Yehwd) not far from Marib,(Meriba, Exodus 17), belonging to the eastern part of Kush (Hijaz from Mecca south down thru Tihama) and Kena'an (Wadi Kenawnah) near Senah (Sana'a) of the Lemba.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ But what does the Islamic slave-trade of the Maghreb in the Middle Ages have to do with Iron Age Libyans like the Meshwesh?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Sorry tin cat, but I don't wear panties and Ehret is not confused at all unlike YOU! I doubt Ehret is under the control of YOUR Ashkenazi masters since there are some Ashkenazi elite would find it uncomfortable to know that their ancient language and culture that they claim is originally black African in origin.
So keep watching your silly ass out for dem Juus! LOL
Hebrew = Phoenician and the Phoenicians were Negros to my knowledge. As for the "jews" its fake, the whole story. There was no Jewish people in antiquity, their whole existence is based on a lie.
The Jews or Judaeans were and are people of the Wahd, once worshippers of Wahd (Yehwd) the lion deity of the Minaeans (Meunim Judges 10:12). Africans were always totemists. The Kahanim definitely existed in Khaibar (Chobar) as late as the 16th century and came from this region Wahid (Yehwd) not far from Marib,(Meriba, Exodus 17), belonging to the eastern part of Kush (south of Mecca down thru Tihama) and Kanaan (Wadi Kenawnah) near Senah (Sana'a) of the Lemba.
Your talking about fantasy, im talking about here in reality. There was no such thing as Jews in the time they claim the kingdom of Israel supposedly existed. Just do the research. There is no king Solomon's temple, there is no ancient israel, there is no land of king david. When you dig down to that time period, in what they now call israel, you find idol worshipers, not some mythical jewish people. These stories are legends, i.e. they have SOME basis in reality, but they have been turned into myths.
That might upset some people but, it is, what it is. There is NO archeological evidence to support your claims. As for the Limba people, they did not call themselves jews until those silly Ashkenazis came there and fed them that fanciful lie. Now, I am not saying there was no ancient religion that these "jews" corrupted and base themselves off of. What I am saying is, the "jewish' people, as defined today and as they define their history is a lie.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The white-Berbers are descendants of the Meshwesh, who are descendants of the People of the Sea; and the Vandals.
Since the Meshwesh only arrived in Delta as the peoples of the Sea, and later we have the Vandals influencing the Berbers there is no way to associate the Tehenu people, with the contemporary Berbers.
As a result the idea of a ancient relationship between contemporary Berber speakers and any African group is ludicris.
.
I believe you are being too limited. Africans brought white slaves into the Maghreb from the time the Mauritanian Muslims struck spain and controlled much of the European Mediterranean in the 700 c.e. until about 1700s. One professor said a million whites were introduced as slaves into north africa in a one hundred year time span, and they brought slaves in for far long than just the 100 yrs he decided to look at. So the amount of whites that diluted that area is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't be shocked if these white slaves also contributed to the look of some Fulas today as well as some Igbos.
I can not disagree entirely with this statement, but, your timeline is recent not ancient.
Can you cite a source where it is mentioned that Fula and Igbos purchased 'white' slaves?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The white-Berbers are descendants of the Meshwesh, who are descendants of the People of the Sea; and the Vandals.
Since the Meshwesh only arrived in Delta as the peoples of the Sea, and later we have the Vandals influencing the Berbers there is no way to associate the Tehenu people, with the contemporary Berbers.
As a result the idea of a ancient relationship between contemporary Berber speakers and any African group is ludicris.
.
I believe you are being too limited. Africans brought white slaves into the Maghreb from the time the Mauritanian Muslims struck spain and controlled much of the European Mediterranean in the 700 c.e. until about 1700s. One professor said a million whites were introduced as slaves into north africa in a one hundred year time span, and they brought slaves in for far long than just the 100 yrs he decided to look at. So the amount of whites that diluted that area is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't be shocked if these white slaves also contributed to the look of some Fulas today as well as some Igbos.
I can not disagree entirely with this statement, but, your timeline is recent not ancient.
Can you cite a source where it is mentioned that Fula and Igbos purchased 'white' slaves?
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Have a look at Keita's chapel hill lecture he gave. He stated the X chromosome has some European markers, how do you suppose that got there? he quoted sources of the Mansa in Mali purchasing white women in Egypt and also asking for Spanish virgins as payment from someone who wanted to move to his kingdom. The idea isn't far fetched. I don't understand though, why do black people think we couldn't have done this? YOu think white hatred for African people is just because they are a hateful bunch? They love their dogs way to much to be purely evil (semi joke).
My point is, I believe we Africans went damn crazy in Europe and had our way with them. I think their hatred stems from that. It is not far fetched to think we could have sold them far and wide. I don't believe in Evolution though, I find the notion silly. But I do find enslaving white women and having our way with a number of them, enough so to change the look of a population, to be highly plausible.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ But what does the Islamic slave-trade of the Maghreb in the Middle Ages have to do with Iron Age Libyans like the Meshwesh?
I don't know since I've never heard of such a thing, Djehuti. That's why I posted the picture of modern apparently probably Slavic descended North AFricans who obviously would have nothing to do with ancient Meshwesh of any sort.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Sorry tin cat, but I don't wear panties and Ehret is not confused at all unlike YOU! I doubt Ehret is under the control of YOUR Ashkenazi masters since there are some Ashkenazi elite would find it uncomfortable to know that their ancient language and culture that they claim is originally black African in origin.
So keep watching your silly ass out for dem Juus! LOL
Hebrew = Phoenician and the Phoenicians were Negros to my knowledge. As for the "jews" its fake, the whole story. There was no Jewish people in antiquity, their whole existence is based on a lie.
The Jews or Judaeans were and are people of the Wahd, once worshippers of Wahd (Yehwd) the lion deity of the Minaeans (Meunim Judges 10:12). Africans were always totemists. The Kahanim definitely existed in Khaibar (Chobar) as late as the 16th century and came from this region Wahid (Yehwd) not far from Marib,(Meriba, Exodus 17), belonging to the eastern part of Kush (south of Mecca down thru Tihama) and Kanaan (Wadi Kenawnah) near Senah (Sana'a) of the Lemba.
Your talking about fantasy, im talking about here in reality. There was no such thing as Jews in the time they claim the kingdom of Israel supposedly existed. Just do the research. There is no king Solomon's temple, there is no ancient israel, there is no land of king david. When you dig down to that time period, in what they now call israel, you find idol worshipers, not some mythical jewish people. These stories are legends, i.e. they have SOME basis in reality, but they have been turned into myths.
That might upset some people but, it is, what it is. There is NO archeological evidence to support your claims. As for the Limba people, they did not call themselves jews until those silly Ashkenazis came there and fed them that fanciful lie. Now, I am not saying there was no ancient religion that these "jews" corrupted and base themselves off of. What I am saying is, the "jewish' people, as defined today and as they define their history is a lie.
Not in Syria there isn't but there is in the orignal land of Canaan. Again, see The Bible Came from Arabia and Bernard Leeman's Queen of Sheba: The Menelik Cycle. Of course it can be agreed it is European fantasy that ancient Israel/Canaan existed in the place you are talking about. That myth was started with the Greek Septuagint and kept up in the West.
That is not part of the Afro-Asiatic Hebrew origin myth.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Sorry tin cat, but I don't wear panties and Ehret is not confused at all unlike YOU! I doubt Ehret is under the control of YOUR Ashkenazi masters since there are some Ashkenazi elite would find it uncomfortable to know that their ancient language and culture that they claim is originally black African in origin.
So keep watching your silly ass out for dem Juus! LOL
Hebrew = Phoenician and the Phoenicians were Negros to my knowledge. As for the "jews" its fake, the whole story. There was no Jewish people in antiquity, their whole existence is based on a lie.
The Jews or Judaeans were and are people of the Wahd, once worshippers of Wahd (Yehwd) the lion deity of the Minaeans (Meunim Judges 10:12). Africans were always totemists. The Kahanim definitely existed in Khaibar (Chobar) as late as the 16th century and came from this region Wahid (Yehwd) not far from Marib,(Meriba, Exodus 17), belonging to the eastern part of Kush (south of Mecca down thru Tihama) and Kanaan (Wadi Kenawnah) near Senah (Sana'a) of the Lemba.
Your talking about fantasy, im talking about here in reality. There was no such thing as Jews in the time they claim the kingdom of Israel supposedly existed. Just do the research. There is no king Solomon's temple, there is no ancient israel, there is no land of king david. When you dig down to that time period, in what they now call israel, you find idol worshipers, not some mythical jewish people. These stories are legends, i.e. they have SOME basis in reality, but they have been turned into myths.
That might upset some people but, it is, what it is. There is NO archeological evidence to support your claims. As for the Limba people, they did not call themselves jews until those silly Ashkenazis came there and fed them that fanciful lie. Now, I am not saying there was no ancient religion that these "jews" corrupted and base themselves off of. What I am saying is, the "jewish' people, as defined today and as they define their history is a lie.
Not in Syria there isn't but there is in the orignal land of Canaan. Again, see The Bible Came from Arabia and Bernard Leeman's Queen of Sheba: The Menelik Cycle. Of course it can be agreed it is European fantasy that ancient Israel/Canaan existed in the place you are talking about. That myth was started with the Greek Septuagint and kept up in the West.
That is not part of the Afro-Asiatic Hebrew origin myth.
What land of canaan are you referring too that holds the temple of Solomon or palace of David? Can you please show me scholarly research that would agree with your claims?
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The white-Berbers are descendants of the Meshwesh, who are descendants of the People of the Sea; and the Vandals.
Since the Meshwesh only arrived in Delta as the peoples of the Sea, and later we have the Vandals influencing the Berbers there is no way to associate the Tehenu people, with the contemporary Berbers.
As a result the idea of a ancient relationship between contemporary Berber speakers and any African group is ludicris.
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I believe you are being too limited. Africans brought white slaves into the Maghreb from the time the Mauritanian Muslims struck spain and controlled much of the European Mediterranean in the 700 c.e. until about 1700s. One professor said a million whites were introduced as slaves into north africa in a one hundred year time span, and they brought slaves in for far long than just the 100 yrs he decided to look at. So the amount of whites that diluted that area is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't be shocked if these white slaves also contributed to the look of some Fulas today as well as some Igbos.
I can not disagree entirely with this statement, but, your timeline is recent not ancient.
Can you cite a source where it is mentioned that Fula and Igbos purchased 'white' slaves?
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Meshwesh or Maazaawazou - still a Tuareg name - could have nothing to do with Vandals. If they are connected at all to any of the "people of the sea" it could only have been some black ones like the Philistines or some other Canaanite supposedly occupying Syria, Crete and other parts of the Aegean.
Philistine supposedly in Aegean wear (period of the Ramessids)
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The white-Berbers are descendants of the Meshwesh, who are descendants of the People of the Sea; and the Vandals.
Since the Meshwesh only arrived in Delta as the peoples of the Sea, and later we have the Vandals influencing the Berbers there is no way to associate the Tehenu people, with the contemporary Berbers.
As a result the idea of a ancient relationship between contemporary Berber speakers and any African group is ludicris.
.
I believe you are being too limited. Africans brought white slaves into the Maghreb from the time the Mauritanian Muslims struck spain and controlled much of the European Mediterranean in the 700 c.e. until about 1700s. One professor said a million whites were introduced as slaves into north africa in a one hundred year time span, and they brought slaves in for far long than just the 100 yrs he decided to look at. So the amount of whites that diluted that area is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't be shocked if these white slaves also contributed to the look of some Fulas today as well as some Igbos.
Some slaves may have contributed somewhat to both Fulani and Igbo. But the Fulani phenotype is recognizable in the Central Sahara since the Neolithic along with their single sidelock hair-style later found on C-group Libyan Temehou.
Thankfully Trollpatrol posted a photo of the rock art in Sahara showing this.
Of course there is no mention of a Berber tribe before 500 years ago as fair in color so there is no point in talking about slaves much influencing them before that time. All the Berbers along the coast Masmuda of the Riff of Morocco in the 11th - 13th century especially are called black-skinned and stout in texts when they are described and Zanata and Sanhaja are clans mostly still that color.
The fact that these people being posted come from those areas shows that the intermixture with slaves has occured in recent times and not anciently.
And since the Djerawa and Kutama tribes of the Aures and Kabylia are also referred to as Black skinned with only a few pale women among them as late as the 11th century there is no reason to assume people related to Vandals were called Berbers in that period.
This is just logic being used here. There is no mention whatsoever of an ancient tribe of the Berbers or Mauri being fair in color. If they ever existed which we certainly can't tell thru the lightened up paintings of the Libou on Euronut sites than they had to have been absorbed by the indigenous Libyan peoples. The tribes called Scythians i.e. proto-Greeks in the modern Libya of 3000 years ago had nothing to do with the braided Meshwesh. They are blond haired and dressed in furs and are found wearing their hair in a single ponytail as shown in Diop' book. These have nothing o do with with the braided haired people whom even Diop admitted were ancestral to the Libou and black.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The white-Berbers are descendants of the Meshwesh, who are descendants of the People of the Sea; and the Vandals.
Since the Meshwesh only arrived in Delta as the peoples of the Sea, and later we have the Vandals influencing the Berbers there is no way to associate the Tehenu people, with the contemporary Berbers.
As a result the idea of a ancient relationship between contemporary Berber speakers and any African group is ludicris.
.
I believe you are being too limited. Africans brought white slaves into the Maghreb from the time the Mauritanian Muslims struck spain and controlled much of the European Mediterranean in the 700 c.e. until about 1700s. One professor said a million whites were introduced as slaves into north africa in a one hundred year time span, and they brought slaves in for far long than just the 100 yrs he decided to look at. So the amount of whites that diluted that area is nothing to sneeze at. I wouldn't be shocked if these white slaves also contributed to the look of some Fulas today as well as some Igbos.
They may have contributed somewhat to both Fulani and Igbo. But the Fulani phenotype is recognizable in the Central Sahara since the Neolithic along with their single sidelock hair-style later found on C-group Libyan Temehou.
Thankfully Trollpatrol posted a photo of the rock art in Sahara showing this.
Fulas vary in their look. Some of them are black like petrol and others are brown. They vary, so I am not sure about the "phenotype", or what you mean by that.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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