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Author Topic: Zimbabwe pres Robert Mugabe was deposed in a bloodless coup by the military
mena7
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/zimbabwe-war-vets-praise-army-bloodless-correction-053415929.html

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Zimbabwe pres Robert Mugabe

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Robert Mugabe and Libyan Pres Mouammar Kaddafi

After 37 years, rule of Zimbabwe's Mugabe appears to be over

HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) — Zimbabwe's military controls the capital and the state broadcaster and is holding President Robert Mugabe, 93, and his wife under house arrest. It appears that the world's oldest head of state has been deposed by a coup.

But the military is at pains to say it did not stage a military takeover, instead starting a process to restore Zimbabwe's democracy.

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After 37 years, the military seems to have brought an end to Mugabe's long reign in what the army's supporters praised as a "bloodless correction." South Africa and other neighboring countries are sending in leaders to negotiate with Mugabe and the generals to encourage the transition.

Citizens in Zimbabwe's tidy capital, Harare, contributed to the feeling of a smooth change by carrying on with their daily lives, walking past the army's armored personnel carriers to go to work and to shops. Many who have never known any leader but Mugabe waited in long lines at banks to draw limited amounts of cash, a result of this once-prosperous country's plummeting economy.

"I am just following what is happening on WhatsApp but I am still in the dark about what is happening," said Felix Tsanganyiso, who sells mobile airtime vouchers. "So far so good; we are going about our business without harassment. My plea is that whoever takes over should sort out the economy. We are tired of living like this."

The whiplash developments followed Mugabe's firing last week of his deputy, which appeared to position the first lady, Grace Mugabe, to replace Emmerson Mnangagwa as one of the country's two vice presidents at a party conference next month.

But the first lady is unpopular among many Zimbabweans for her lavish spending on mansions, cars and jewels. Last month she went to court to sue a diamond dealer for not supplying her with a 100-carat diamond that she said she had paid for.

Grace Mugabe, 52, has been known as the leader of the G40, a group of Cabinet ministers and officials in their 40s and 50s who are too young to have fought in Zimbabwe's war to end white-minority Rhodesia. When Mnangagwa was fired, the generals and war veterans felt they were being sidelined and took action to stop that, analysts say.

Mnangagwa's whereabouts were not clear Wednesday. He fled the country last week, citing threats to him and his family.

Critics of the government urged Mugabe to go quietly. "The old man should be allowed to rest," former Zimbabwe finance minister and current activist Tendai Biti told South African broadcaster eNCA.

On Monday the army commander made an unprecedented statement criticizing Mugabe for pushing aside veterans of the liberation war. The following day, the ruling party condemned the army leader for "treasonable conduct." ON Tuesday evening the army sent armored personnel carriers into Harare and soon seized control of the state broadcaster and other strategic points, including Mugabe's residence.

Early Wednesday, in a televised address to the nation, Major General Sibusiso Moyo said the army had "guaranteed" the safety of Mugabe and his wife, but added the military would target "criminals" around Mugabe, probably referring to the first lady's G40 group.

South African President Jacob Zuma said he was sending his ministers of defense and state security to Zimbabwe to meet with Mugabe and the military there. He said he hopes Zimbabwe's army will respect the constitution and that the situation "is going to be controlled."

Who will rule Zimbabwe should be established in the coming days.

"There is a soft transition underway," said Zimbabwean analyst Alex Rusero. "The whole idea is that the military has always been the chief broker in (Mugabe's ruling party) ZANU-PF ... But there were attempts to sideline the military by G40 and they (the military) are reasserting their position."

Mnangagwa may well be installed as a transitional leader to return Zimbabwe to constitutional rule, Rusero said.

Zimbabwe may enter a period of negotiation to get Mugabe to step down voluntarily, said Piers Pigou, southern Africa consultant for the International Crisis Group, who also suggested that Mnangagwa may be an interim leader.

"Zimbabwe could have some kind of inclusive government and some kind of democratic process, possibly leading to elections," Pigou said. "It's clearly a coup d'etat, but typical of Zimbabwe, the military is trying to put a veneer of legality on the process. ... It is part of the theater that Zimbabwe is so good at, to try to make things look orderly and democratic. South African and other neighboring countries may be brought in to help put some lipstick on the pig."

Mena: After 37 years in power the 93 years old Zimbabwe president Robert Mugabe was deposed in coup d etat by the Zimbabwean army. I think Mugabe for most of his time in power was a good president but at the end Robert Mugabe and his family were corrupted by power.

Robert Mugabe was a war independance hero who help to free his country from Great Britain colonization. Robert Mugabe did a popular land reform taking arable land from the minority White population descendant of the colonialist British who use to own the majority of the good land in Zimbabwe and giving them back to the majority native Black population whose land has been stolen from during the colonial era by the British colonialists.

Robert Mugabe was an anti imperialist African president. He has opposed the USA, the UK and France interference in African countries politics. Robert Mugabe sent the Zimbabwe army to the Democratic Republic of Congo to help the Congolese government fight the invasion of Congo by rebels from Rwanda and Uganda back up by the USA and also fight a civil war. the Zimbabwean army help bring peace to the DRC by forcing negociations that ended the civil war that killed 6 million Congoleses.

The bad side of Robert Mugabe and the majority of African chief of states in modern history is that they want to be president for life, they want to climb to power forever. They think they are a king or the father of their country and the population of the country are their children or subjects. Robert Mugabe being president for 37 years corrupted him and his family.Being president for 37 years make Robert Mugabe tyrannical despite being elected because he had to oppressed the opposition who rightfully wanted to be president to. There were many economic problem in Zimbabwe were a 1000% inflation make the Zimbabwe dollar worthless, $1 US was worth 100,000 Zimbabwe dollar. Western embargo after the land reform was mostly responsible for the economic crisis.

the 93 years old Robert Mugabe should had left power twenty years ago when he was 73. He should have peacefully pass the power to another member of the party and have some influence behind the scene.The wise president of Tanzania Julius Nyerere peacefully and successfully pass power to a member of his party after democratic election before he retired. The era of Kings and dictators for life is over in modern world politic.The real power today is held by business and political family behind the scene. Mugabe was trying to pass the presidency to his wife in order to maintain power in the family.A country is not the personal property of one man. Even the Communist Chinese change president every 10 years.

Robert Mugabe was a good president who has failed to adapt to the modern political reality of the modern world.

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mena

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Tehutimes
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Go enjoy your retirement President Mugabe.Now for President Dos Santos to resign in Angola and his daughter to resign from her government post.Dos Santos daughter is a friend of the Kardashians that is not cool.In Angola over half of the population has no access to clean drinking water in a nation that sells many barrels of oil to Europe & Asia. Informative post Mena7, Have you seen the improvements President John Magufuli has instituted in Tanzania?

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Tehutimes

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Dos Santos been resigned.
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lamin
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Ironical that Mugabe was trained in Ghana during Nkrumah's time. That's where he met his first wife, Sally Mugabe. She died from an illness and Mugabe then took up with his present wife, Grace Mugabe. That's the source of the problem.

Mugabe squandered his anti-colonialist legacy because of his weak-kneed entrapment by some ignorant typist.

Now the white Western press is pushing Mugabe's present problems with very regular news on Mugabe. Zimbabwe is a relatively small African country with not much geopolitical significance, so why this gleeful emphasis on Mugabe. Easy answer: the white West is still enraged that Mugabe and the war veterans seized the lands the settler whites stole with killings of the locals and much violence.

In an enraged frenzy the West imposed a very painful credit squeeze on Zimbabwe forcing a massive devaluation on the Zimbabwe dollar. The West's goal was to bring down Mugabe's government in order to replace it their massaged puppet Morgan Tsvangirai. The Western media hardly touches on the reason why Zimbabwe had its economic woes.

Mugabe was wrong to allow the blatant corruption if his useless wife--a total ignoramus and blot on Africa. Total lack of good sense. It would seem that the wife is the one who encouraged him to stay on so she could build up enough of a power base to become President. A total misjudgment.

But again, one of Africa's curses rears its ugly head again. Leaders who just don't want to step down when when the time is ripe.

Mugabe did have some Pan-African credentials and was in syn with Gaddafi. So the last Nkrumah's proteges is now being purged. Nkrumah was overthrown by the U.S. government led by Lyndon Johnson with black ambassador Franklin Williams who pushed through the coup along with Ghana's very compliant army. Then Ghaddafi as Nkruhmah's Pan African successor was slaughtered by Obama and Hillary Clinton in 2011. Libya's racist Arabs and Al Quaida were the hit men for the U.S., France, Britain and NATO at that time.

The problem with Africa's leaders is that they don't understand the relentless war the West is waging against them to keep control of Africa's resources. Any leader who challenges Western real politik in Africa must always be on guard.

Of the current crop of 55 presidents in Africa none is serious about real development. They are always on the corrupt take and show little sympathy for their citizens always fleeing across the Sahara to drown in the Mediterranean or to land in Europe to deal drugs, sell trinkets on the roadside or engage in petty crime.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Ironical that Mugabe was trained in Ghana during Nkrumah's time. That's where he met his first wife, Sally Mugabe. She died from an illness and Mugabe then took up with his present wife, Grace Mugabe. That's the source of the problem.

Mugabe squandered his anti-colonialist legacy because of his weak-kneed entrapment by some ignorant typist.

Now the white Western press is pushing Mugabe's present problems with very regular news on Mugabe. Zimbabwe is a relatively small African country with not much geopolitical significance, so why this gleeful emphasis on Mugabe. Easy answer: the white West is still enraged that Mugabe and the war veterans seized the lands the settler whites stole with killings of the locals and much violence.

In an enraged frenzy the West imposed a very painful credit squeeze on Zimbabwe forcing a massive devaluation on the Zimbabwe dollar. The West's goal was to bring down Mugabe's government in order to replace it their massaged puppet Morgan Tsvangirai. The Western media hardly touches on the reason why Zimbabwe had its economic woes.

Mugabe was wrong to allow the blatant corruption if his useless wife--a total ignoramus and blot on Africa. Total lack of good sense. It would seem that the wife is the one who encouraged him to stay on so she could build up enough of a power base to become President. A total misjudgment.

But again, one of Africa's curses rears its ugly head again. Leaders who just don't want to step down when when the time is ripe.

Mugabe did have some Pan-African credentials and was in syn with Gaddafi. So the last Nkrumah's proteges is now being purged. Nkrumah was overthrown by the U.S. government led by Lyndon Johnson with black ambassador Franklin Williams who pushed through the coup along with Ghana's very compliant army. Then Ghaddafi as Nkruhmah's Pan African successor was slaughtered by Obama and Hillary Clinton in 2011. Libya's racist Arabs and Al Quaida were the hit men for the U.S., France, Britain and NATO at that time.

The problem with Africa's leaders is that they don't understand the relentless war the West is waging against them to keep control of Africa's resources. Any leader who challenges Western real politik in Africa must always be on guard.

Of the current crop of 55 presidents in Africa none is serious about real development. They are always on the corrupt take and show little sympathy for their citizens always fleeing across the Sahara to drown in the Mediterranean or to land in Europe to deal drugs, sell trinkets on the roadside or engage in petty crime.

Great analysis.

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C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
[QB] Ironical that Mugabe was trained in Ghana during Nkrumah's time. That's where he met his first wife, Sally Mugabe. She died from an illness and Mugabe then took up with his present wife, Grace Mugabe. That's the source of the problem.


But again, one of Africa's curses rears its ugly head again. Leaders who just don't want to step down when when the time is ripe.


We can't expect people to step down voluntarily.
The problem is not Grace Mugabe. It's no term limits or law not followed

https://africacenter.org/spotlight/constitutional-term-limits-african-leaders/


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https://www.brandsouthafrica.com/south-africa-fast-facts/news-facts/analysis-transparenc


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Doug M
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It is funny to hear Europeans claim Africa is corrupt but not talk about where the money is coming from and who is on the other side of the corruption. And when it does come up and European or American companies are found guilty, it is typically covered up in the Western press....

Rhodesia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5umR7uWPKp0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF3Y-ucttLM

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
It is funny to hear Europeans claim Africa is corrupt but not talk about where the money is coming from and who is on the other side of the corruption. And when it does come up and European or American companies are found guilty, it is typically covered up in the Western press....

Rhodesia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5umR7uWPKp0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF3Y-ucttLM

Yes we know all the corruption in Africa is due to the white man but the point of the above maps is that there is less relative corruption in countries that enforce term limits on their leaders

http://www.mmegi.bw/index.php?aid=57366&dir=2016/january/29

Botswana least corrupt in Africa – report

Botswana has once again emerged as the least corrupt country in Africa according to Transparency International’s Corruption Perceptions Index 2015 released on Wednesday. Botswana is ranked 28th out of 168 countries worldwide with a score of 68/100. This is despite an outcry that institutions tasked with fighting corruption are toothless or sleeping on their mandate.

https://www.panafricanalliance.com/the-top-5-best-african-cities-to-escape-to/


Pan African Alliance

THE TOP 5 BEST AFRICAN CITIES TO ESCAPE TO

GABORONE, BOTSWANA

Rent Prices in Botswana are 67.71% lower than in United States
Restaurant Prices in Botswana are 39.76% lower than in United States
Groceries Prices in Botswana are 42.90% lower than in United States
Botswana is one of Africa’s most stable countries, and is the continent’s longest continuous multi-party democracy. The country is land-locked by some pretty quiet neighbors (Zimbabwe, Namibia, and South Africa), and is a hot tourist destination for Safari.

If you love the city life, Botswana is the shit. Gaborone, the capital city of Botswana is one of the most livable cities on the continent of Africa. However, Securing residency visas and work permits in Botswana can be quite a daunting task and the process of application can be tedious and confusing. You will probably need to hire the services of an immigration consultant if you plan on staying for longer than 90 days.


____________________


https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/10-best-places-to-retire-in-africa-445239/?singlepage=1


Has English as an official language.


Botswana’s capital is a great place for people wanting to have a quiet retirement in Africa’s most peaceful country. Being one of the richest in the area, thanks to Botswana’s business in diamond exports, it’s a perfect spot for folks wanting to avoid the stress of large cities.

With an international airport and great weather conditions, this medium sized city ranks first on our list of 10 best places to retire in Africa.

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lamin
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"It's no term limits or law not followed". Well, who sets the tone?

Again, blame the influence of that ignorant and flamboyantly kleptocratic ex-typist who had dreams of worming her way into the presidency.

Recall Lord Acton's pithy comment on POWER.

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lamin
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Doug,
Corruption in Africa is not due to the white man. That claim robs Africans of moral agency. It's the responsibility of human agents to determine what's good for the individual and good for the group and what's good for their nations and Africa as a whole.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Doug,
Corruption in Africa is not due to the white man. That claim robs Africans of moral agency. It's the responsibility of human agents to determine what's good for the individual and good for the group and what's good for their nations and Africa as a whole.

Corruption in Afric is absolutely due to white INSTITUTIONS. Corruption means using money to buy off government officials. Africans are supposedly dirt poor, so where is the money coming from to "corrupt" anybody? Also, where do the weapons and equipment come from if Africans have no arms factories of their own?

Recall the whole corruption scandal in Nigeria with Halliburton? The trial took place in the United States and during the trial, it was established that Halliburton had a whole fund set aside just for paying off African officials. And this is just the tip of the iceberg....

Yes, African agency is important but agency can only be created through institutions and organizations that are BUILT by Africans with an AFRICAN identity that promote African agency. No individual has agency without support of institutions and organizations. Most black leaders are given agency by institutions created by other people. And this is why it is easy for the average joe to sit on the sidelines because they have no say or control over the institutions that educate, train, employ and finance black leaders. And this is world wide. The church, banks, military, industries and governments all have institutional control in Africa. And this is what creates the vacuum in black leadership. Look at all the African leaders educated in British, Chinese or American schools. Look at all the African "leaders" in the World Bank.

Yes at the end of the day it is up to Africans to plan their own destiny but when you are dirt poor it is hard to resist the appeal and comfort of European institutions which provide food, resources and support where Africans have nothing.

And this isn't really about Mugabe. He is on his last legs. It is about who is going to replace him. And currently the opposition is financed by white settlers. The platform of the opposition is to bring back the white settlers/white rule using black front men in government, just like in South Africa and everywhere else in Africa. That is where the corruption starts.

Also, when black people took over the white farms, where was the money, resources, education, training and infrastructure to make them successful? This is what I mean by agency. Where are African newspapers, television stations, documentary producers and others to tell the stories of the atrocities done by whites to Africans? If all you have is white institutions and media telling the story then you will get propaganda and the agency will be with white people and their agendas. Meaning the idea of Africans being in charge of their own land, their own resources, their own schools and their own wealth will be seen as EVIL and white racist settlers will be propped up as RIGHTEOUS and the victims of the evil African racists.....

https://books.google.com/books?id=o8LpCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=Movement+for+Democratic+Change+white+settler&source=bl&ots=wX3TvLFfF9&sig=5FSmF7ZS6RRujfFDg9hPEDleONo&hl=en&sa=X& ved=0ahUKEwi9y7CPmM3XAhUCDZAKHV3RBXwQ6AEIXTAL#v=onepage&q=Movement%20for%20Democratic%20Change%20white%20settler&f=false

https://www.workers.org/2010/world/zimbabwe_1209/

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/12/how-to-kill-a-country/302845/

quote:

Ben Freeth is anxious as we return to Mount Carmel, the 2,400-hectare farm in central Zimbabwe that his family once owned. He is worried that President Mugabe’s ‘war veterans’ — the thugs who seized the property in 2009 — might still be around. His fears are groundless. The place is deserted.

We drive along dirt tracks flanked by abandoned, overgrown fields where maize and sunflowers once flourished in the rich soil. The 40,000 mango and orange trees are dying. The tractors and other farm machinery have been looted. Gates, fences and irrigation pipes have been carted away. The dam on the Biri river is cracked and leaking. The boreholes are defunct. The giraffes, zebras and impala on the small wildlife reserve were long ago slaughtered by the war vets.

We inspect the remains of the house which Freeth and his wife, Laura, built of local stone and wood and where they had hoped to raise their three young children. “We’ve had our hearts broken over and over, and in the end you just harden yourself,” he says as we walk round the roofless, rubble-filled shell. The war vets burned the house down on August 30 2009. Topsy and Brown, the family’s dog and cat, died in the inferno.

Close by was the home of Freeth’s in-laws, Mike and Angela Campbell, who bought the farm in 1974 and turned it into Zimbabwe’s biggest producer of mangos, supplying the markets of Europe. Only the walls still stand. It was burned down three days after Freeth’s house. Leaves rot in the bottom of the empty swimming pool. The grave of Freeth’s sister-in-law, Heidi, stands in a garden run wild. She died of malaria, which was imported by the war vets. She was pregnant with twins.

The Freeths and the Campbells were punished for being white in Mugabe’s Zimbabwe. They were punished for taking the president to the Southern African Development Community tribunal — southern Africa’s highest court — in a courageous bid to keep their land. They won, but it made no difference. Mugabe seized the farm anyway. Before doing so his thugs abducted Freeth and his ageing in-laws and beat them so severely that Mike Campbell never recovered. He died three years later.

In its heyday Mount Carmel produced roughly 1,200 tonnes of mangos and oranges a year, and 500 tonnes of maize. It had 700 head of cattle, and supported 500 farmworkers and dependants. Today it produces nothing. It supports just a handful of squatters who have commandeered the odd field here and there. One, Tawanda Mapepa, 21, told us he grew 12 bags of maize on six hectares last year — a tiny fraction of what Campbell would have produced from the same area. He had no seeds or fertiliser for this year. To Freeth’s astonishment he begged for help, saying he could not feed his family.

https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/zimbabwes-white-farmers-once-helped-feed-africa-now-their-farms-lie-ruins
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lamin
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Doug,

What you say is interesting but it's not the reality in Africa. There are billionaires in dollars in Africa. There are many, many cars in Africa paid for in cash. Houses in Africa are built by their owners-- bought through mortgage banks, etc.

Robert Mugabe's wife, Gucci Grace is very corrupt and thieving. Her personality was determined by her own free will, not by whites.

When the War Veterans forced Mugabe to handle the land issue, many plots of land went to ordinary people. And they are still farming their plots and earning a living off the land.

Again, corruption in Africa is not caused by whites. It's caused by Africans themselves.

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Elmaestro
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Doug,

What you say is interesting but it's not the reality in Africa. There are billionaires in dollars in Africa. There are many, many cars in Africa paid for in cash. Houses in Africa are built by their owners-- bought through mortgage banks, etc.

Robert Mugabe's wife, Gucci Grace is very corrupt and thieving. Her personality was determined by her own free will, not by whites.

When the War Veterans forced Mugabe to handle the land issue, many plots of land went to ordinary people. And they are still farming their plots and earning a living off the land.

Again, corruption in Africa is not caused by whites. It's caused by Africans themselves.

What's your opinion on this decade old talk?

https://www.ted.com/talks/george_ayittey_on_cheetahs_vs_hippos

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Doug,

What you say is interesting but it's not the reality in Africa. There are billionaires in dollars in Africa. There are many, many cars in Africa paid for in cash. Houses in Africa are built by their owners-- bought through mortgage banks, etc.

Robert Mugabe's wife, Gucci Grace is very corrupt and thieving. Her personality was determined by her own free will, not by whites.

When the War Veterans forced Mugabe to handle the land issue, many plots of land went to ordinary people. And they are still farming their plots and earning a living off the land.

Again, corruption in Africa is not caused by whites. It's caused by Africans themselves.

You aren't addressing what I said. Where are the independent African institutions to educate, train and FINANCE African leaders who are "pro African'? There are none. And those that do exist do not have the power and finance of white institutions. When I say institutions I mean things like the Church, the Corporations, the schools, the mining industry, the petroleum industry, Military and so forth.

Robert Mugabe was educated in white missionary schools and white run universities in South Africa and London..... And this is no different than most African so-called Leaders. Do you expect white institutions to train Africans how to be independent? After he became President of Zimbabwe he was knighted by England. Would they do that if he was fighting against them? Of course not. African corruption always follows the same pattern, poor African grows up gets some education and training from whites and then is hand picked to run the country. While they are in charge, they are given kickbacks and other money from foreign companies in Africa who want to keep stealing the resources. That is how corruption works in Africa. It isn't rich Africans corrupting the politicians. It is rich foreigners doing this.

Africans don't have the institutions to produce the kind of leadership that is corrupt. But keep in mind that Western leaders are no less corrupt. Most of their money came from global rape and pillage in the first place. Africa has no colonies outside of Africa growing food and generating wealth for Africa.

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sudaniya
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Doug

Is the endemic corruption in countries like South Sudan also a fault of white Europeans? Officials in Juba stole over $18 billion during the Interim Period.

Why must an African be taught to embody and defend the interests of his people by a pro-African institutions? This should be innate; even animals look after their young, and you want us to believe that the absense of pro-African insitutions is the reason African 'leaders' condemn millions of their own to death by hunger, disease and infant mortality?

--------------------
National sovereignty is sacrosanct

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Doug

Is the endemic corruption in countries like South Sudan also a fault of white Europeans? Officials in Juba stole over $18 billion during the Interim Period.

Why must an African be taught to embody and defend the interests of his people by a pro-African institutions? This should be innate; even animals look after their young, and you want us to believe that the absense of pro-African insitutions is the reason African 'leaders' condemn millions of their own to death by hunger, disease and infant mortality?

Doug said they were educated in "white run universities in South Africa and London"
Presumably such institutions would be innately devoted to looking after their (white) European young.

So your point doesn't make sense.

If a university was expected to be be innately pro-African it would be a black run university in Africa and not London.

Are there any?

Also what is an institution?
The traditional African governmental system as was the old European one was a monarchy. Some remnants of it still exist

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lamin
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Doug,
If what you are saying is true then Africans would never have militated--both politically and militarily--for "independence" from Europe's colonial powers.

Despite the influence of mission schools which down-graded traditional religions many leaders emerged who militated for "independence". The colonially compliant leaders were the ones the Colonial Powers endorsed to lead their countries, the non-compliant ones were jailed and/or assassinated.

Examples:Lumumba(murdered by Belgium and the U.S. by way of Mobutu), Mondlane, Garang, Biko, Moumie( poisoned by the French at a Swiss airport), Cabral, etc.

Wars were fought in Algeria, Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bissau, Kenya, Namibia, Sudan, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Congo, etc.


Nkrumah had serious plans for development but was overthrown by a military coup with the blessings of Britain and the U.S.

Little progress is being made because the independent African nations are overwhelmed by massive corruption and little considerations for the rights of their citizens by the ruling political classes.

It is doubtful that the massive corruption derives from the West. Just pure human agency and a huge contempt for the poorer citizens of the African nations. Consider how elections are rigged(Kenya, etc) or how Presidents seek to overturn their legal mandates(Congo, Burundi, etc.).

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the lioness,
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yes but what if that is compared to tribal groups before the Europeans came in and created inappropriate borders and deemed them countries?
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
Doug

Is the endemic corruption in countries like South Sudan also a fault of white Europeans? Officials in Juba stole over $18 billion during the Interim Period.

Why must an African be taught to embody and defend the interests of his people by a pro-African institutions? This should be innate; even animals look after their young, and you want us to believe that the absense of pro-African insitutions is the reason African 'leaders' condemn millions of their own to death by hunger, disease and infant mortality?

Who armed and trained the South Sudanese? Seriously? Don't you guys do your own research?

quote:

How factions in South Sudan’s war took shape on British campuses

The UK has historical links with both sides of a vicious civil war

Among the South African, Palestinian and other young exiles debating revolutionary politics on campuses across early 1980s Britain, there was little at first to mark out Riek Machar, a twentysomething student from what is now the troubled young country of South Sudan.

Yet within a few years – while pursuing a philosophy PhD at Bradford – he was to establish an underground student grouping in contact with rebels in his homeland and lead a delegation to Muammar Gaddafi’s Libya on behalf of the Sudan People’s Liberation Movement (SPLM). Distinguishing himself as a field commander during one of Africa’s longest-running conflicts, Machar formed a new and more personal relationship with Britain in 1991, when he married Emma McCune, a young English aid worker who subsequently died in a car accident in Kenya.

Nearly three decades on, Machar, a former vice-president of South Sudan, is a rebel leader in a brutal post-independence conflict in which both insurgent and government forces have been accused of atrocities.

The legacy of those British links, and those of a generation born in Sudan when it was still a British protectorate, endure. Machar, other rebels and senior government figures are all UK citizens, having taken the option to upgrade their status from British protected persons (BPPs) – a fact that human rights activists say places an unique responsibility on the UK.

“If British citizens are suspected of involvement in some of these atrocities, the UK should certainly do its bit to ensure they’re not in any way shielded from justice,” Amnesty International told the Observer.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/apr/16/south-sudan-could-britain-create-peace-striking-how-close-they-feel


Rebel Leader Riek Machar and his white British wife:
 -

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Doug,
If what you are saying is true then Africans would never have militated--both politically and militarily--for "independence" from Europe's colonial powers.

Despite the influence of mission schools which down-graded traditional religions many leaders emerged who militated for "independence". The colonially compliant leaders were the ones the Colonial Powers endorsed to lead their countries, the non-compliant ones were jailed and/or assassinated.

Examples:Lumumba(murdered by Belgium and the U.S. by way of Mobutu), Mondlane, Garang, Biko, Moumie( poisoned by the French at a Swiss airport), Cabral, etc.

Wars were fought in Algeria, Angola, Mozambique, Guinea Bissau, Kenya, Namibia, Sudan, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Congo, etc.


Nkrumah had serious plans for development but was overthrown by a military coup with the blessings of Britain and the U.S.

Little progress is being made because the independent African nations are overwhelmed by massive corruption and little considerations for the rights of their citizens by the ruling political classes.

It is doubtful that the massive corruption derives from the West. Just pure human agency and a huge contempt for the poorer citizens of the African nations. Consider how elections are rigged(Kenya, etc) or how Presidents seek to overturn their legal mandates(Congo, Burundi, etc.).

You say the West started wars and installed corrupt dictators who overthrew true African nationalists and then you turned around and said you don't see how the West is behind the corruption. Seriously?

I am not going to sit here and debate someone that confused in their own head....

Here is some stuff to help you out since you don't like to do your own research. It is 2017 and you folks can look this up yourself.

quote:

"Economic hit men,” John Perkins writes, “are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars. Their tools include fraudulent financial reports, rigged elections, payoffs, extortion, sex, and murder.”

John Perkins should know—he was an economic hit man. His job was to convince countries that are strategically important to the U.S.—from Indonesia to Panama—to accept enormous loans for infrastructure development, and to make sure that the lucrative projects were contracted to U. S. corporations. Saddled with huge debts, these countries came under the control of the United States government, World Bank and other U.S.-dominated aid agencies that acted like loan sharks—dictating repayment terms and bullying foreign governments into submission.

This New York Times bestseller exposes international intrigue, corruption, and little-known government and corporate activities that have dire consequences for American democracy and the world. It is a compelling story that also offers hope and a vision for realizing the American dream of a just and compassionate world that will bring us greater security.

https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/1576753018

quote:

Nigeria's anti-corruption police said today that they will charge former US vice-president Dick Cheney over a $180m bribery case involving energy firm Halliburton.The announcement follows a probe into the construction of a liquefied natural gas plant in the conflict-ridden Niger Delta.

Halliburton's top official in Nigeria has been summoned and 10 of its Nigerian and expat staff detained for questioning after a raid on the company's office in Lagos. Cheney was head of Halliburton before becoming George W Bush's vice-president in 2001.

"We are filing charges against Cheney," said Femi Babafemi, a spokesman for the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), adding that the charges were likely to be brought next week. He declined to give any further details on what the charges were or where they would be filed.

Houston-based engineering firm KBR, a former Halliburton unit, pleaded guilty last year to US charges that it paid $180m in bribes between 1994 and 2004 to Nigerian officials to secure $6bn in contracts for the Bonny Island Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) project in the Niger Delta.KBR and Halliburton reached a $579m settlement in America but Nigeria, France and Switzerland have conducted their own investigations into the case.

Halliburton split from KBR in 2007 and has said that its current operations in Nigeria are unrelated.It has described last week's EFCC raid as "an affront against justice", said its offices were ransacked and personnel assaulted, and pledged to defend its staff against what it said were "completely false and outrageous actions".

"As indicated in previous legal activity in the United States, one of the participants in the (Bonny Island) project was a subsidiary of Halliburton Company for part of that period of time," it said last week.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/02/dick-cheney-halliburton-nigeria-corruption-charges

As for Zimbabwe:
http://www.newzimbabwe.com/columns-451-Britain+made+Mugabe,+and+they+dragged+whole+world+into+the+mess/columns.aspx

quote:

It's *Sir* Robert Mugabe to you, we knighted him when he was only murdering blacks by the 10,000 and allowing whites to keep the best land.
....
Blah. WE knighted him, WE propped him up through decades of bloodshed, and WE only kicked off when he began seizing white farms. The end.

https://twitter.com/barneyfarmer/status/921670625063784450
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lamin
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Doug,
You are getting rattled by the facts put to you. Human agency is the key here--and you are ignoring that key factor.

The issue here is corruption. This is how corruption works in Africa. Governments set up their budgets annually with each Ministry getting its own budget. But given the weak civil societies in Africa, the Ministers take huge kick-backs for contracts awarded or just
pocket most of what their budgets are worth.

These are individuals who know how badly underfunded roads, hospitals, government schools, water resources, etc. are but feel no compunction or guilt at their crimes of theft and negligence.

Come election time where rural illiterates are bribed with bags of rice, yams, maize, or just raw cash to vote for a candidate. No guilt or sense of wrong-doing on both sides.

People vote stupidly only on the basis that their chosen candidate speaks their language--for the most part. Or that their chosen candidate is a Muslim or Christian.


Most of these ministers and politicians have spent lots of time in Europe and even own houses there and have their children educated there---thereby [b[ giving them a chance to see how things are done more efficiently in France, Britain, Germany, Scandinavia. But they never seek to implement the same in their home countries.[/b]

Surely, they are in unequal partnerships with their neocolonial patrons in the West-- but these are choices of human agency they make. They could do otherwise--if they wanted


Point: Nigerian Congress persons are most highly paid politicians in the world. Yet they achieve nothing of note--except to enrich themselves and behave very arrogantly.

This is hardly due to tutelage from the West.

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sudaniya
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Doug

Sudan was the largest recipient of U.S. development and military aid in Africa -after Egypt- up until around the Gulf War. This continued until 1989 — many years after the formation of the SPLM. This is precisely how Khartoum was able to acquire American C-130 Hercules cargo aircraft and M60 Patton tanks.

The United States only started working against Khartoum after it made the folly of supporting Iraq when it invaded Kuwait, in stark contrast to the position taken by the sycophantic satraps of the Persian Gulf.

British business interests and individuals like Tiny Rowland were instrumental in providing Riek with support and certain supplies in the 1990s against Dr. John Garang... a man that espoused pan-African ideals.

Garang made the mistake of visiting Uganda and lost his life in what a lot of Sudanese suspect was an American assassination -- condemning South Sudan to turmoil.

At the immediate heels of Garang's death, an official was removed from the Juba government after he expressed the belief that Garang was assassinated with the help of people he believed were his friends, and I believe that he meant Museveni and Salva Kiir.

I am quite certain that the late Dr. John Garang was removed precisely because he stood in the way of these very same people. Garang even spoke of an international conspiracy, so I was surprised he even set foot in Uganda. Dr. John Garang had a vision for the entire East/Central African region, and that certainly did not meld with the plans and policies of the Washington-Wall street consensus and the Anglo-American establishment.

Salva Kiir ignored or scrapped all of Garang's economic plans and reforms and then presided over a period of unrestrained, endemic corruption that has dashed all the dreams and hopes South Sudan had for itself. There is a Sudanese proverb that states 'that nobody can ride you unless your back is bent', and I primarily blame Salva Kiir for the corruption and lack of development in South Sudan.

I don't know what to make of it, but Riek Machar solicited and subsequently had talks with the notorious International Republican Institute - one month prior to the outbreak of war in South Sudan in 2013.

The International Republican Institute is an offshoot of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is yet another derivative of the CIA. The National Endowment for Democracy deposes elected Presidents and governments by orchestrating coups and "colour revolutions".

The IRI is just one [1] of the four [4] organisations that the NED [CIA] controls and funds. And here they are: The International Republican Institute (IRI), the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs (NDI), the Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE), and the American Center for International Labor Solidarity (ACILS).

CIA aligned organisations like the NED were responsible for the coup d’etat that removed the former President of Haiti, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, after he refused to comply with the neoliberal economic policies of the Washington-Wall street consensus.

The United States uses Uganda and Rwanda to steal resources such as Cobalt and Coltan from the DRC. Despite all of this, nobody can ride you unless your back is bent. The problem with people like Garang is that they don't recruit approximately capable, like-minded individuals... something that would prevent the West from getting their way with the removal of just one man.

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the lioness,
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Doug is coming from the perspective of living in a country with a white majority and white government but which countries in Africa today are least corrupt?

Which countries in Africa have the most potential for being the most independent of foreign control?

That is the most important question rather than saying the situation is hopeless like Doug is.

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Elmaestro
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I think that Doug is trying to relay the fact that the west commonly incentivizes Corruption... which everyone here seems to understand but choose to blame Africans rather.

...in the video I posted earlier George Ayittey Questions (on the surface level) what went wrong all of a sudden in the last few decades and/or centuries, and why implementing western Social structure onto African countries leads to corruption.

The situation seems hopeless if we blame a set of individuals in isolation for malpractice.. How do people avoid the cycle of replacing a corrupt leader with another corrupt leader?

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Thereal
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It may be difficult to execute by you literally stop everything take an assessment on what needs fixing and go from there,the issue being the millions of people willing to partake in the restructuring who haven't been polluted by corruption or other things.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Doug,
You are getting rattled by the facts put to you. Human agency is the key here--and you are ignoring that key factor.

The issue here is corruption. This is how corruption works in Africa. Governments set up their budgets annually with each Ministry getting its own budget. But given the weak civil societies in Africa, the Ministers take huge kick-backs for contracts awarded or just
pocket most of what their budgets are worth.

These are individuals who know how badly underfunded roads, hospitals, government schools, water resources, etc. are but feel no compunction or guilt at their crimes of theft and negligence.

Come election time where rural illiterates are bribed with bags of rice, yams, maize, or just raw cash to vote for a candidate. No guilt or sense of wrong-doing on both sides.

People vote stupidly only on the basis that their chosen candidate speaks their language--for the most part. Or that their chosen candidate is a Muslim or Christian.


Most of these ministers and politicians have spent lots of time in Europe and even own houses there and have their children educated there---thereby [b[ giving them a chance to see how things are done more efficiently in France, Britain, Germany, Scandinavia. But they never seek to implement the same in their home countries.[/b]

Surely, they are in unequal partnerships with their neocolonial patrons in the West-- but these are choices of human agency they make. They could do otherwise--if they wanted


Point: Nigerian Congress persons are most highly paid politicians in the world. Yet they achieve nothing of note--except to enrich themselves and behave very arrogantly.

This is hardly due to tutelage from the West.

OK. So in other words you just ignore the facts that don't suit you. I post evidence of the "culture" of corruption that Western corporations use in Africa and you claim it is just "innate" African corruption with no outside influence.

The facts say otherwise.

African corruption is primarily about taking kickbacks from foreign countries and governments in order to continue allowing them to take resources and wealth out of the country. And as part of that "deal" this also means allowing these leaders to never use money for their own people. In fact that is required in order to keep these foreign interests happy. But OK. According to you these western interests just are trying so hard to build up Africa but the "evil" Africans are the ones stopping them. That is nothing more than European propaganda.

Because according to Europeans, them raping, stealing and killing millions of folks around the world isn't evil or corrupt and racist. No. It is the black folks fighting against their corruption that is evil and corrupt. And this is what I mean about Africans not having their own institutions to promote their own agenda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-6EbywEWIg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pBY8LwtBY4

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lamin
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Doug,

You are writing like a white liberal who believes that blacks/Africans are just incapable of exercising decisive human agency. You are also giving whites too much decision making
power.

According to you Africa will always be controlled by whites as long as they want to. That's difficult to accept.

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Thereal
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I think it has to do with Africans general acceptance of "others" on why dougm statements come off the way they do as there are Africans who were for their people but those types of Africans were assassinated or overthrown,not to say they didn't have manipulative people before colonization,sense they aren't in the history book I guess they really don't count.
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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Doug,

You are writing like a white liberal who believes that blacks/Africans are just incapable of exercising decisive human agency. You are also giving whites too much decision making
power.

According to you Africa will always be controlled by whites as long as they want to. That's difficult to accept.

Lamin stop kidding yourself. You are acting like a white liberal as if to say that white folks have no role in what goes on in Africa and it is all Africans fault.

I don't deny that Africans have a responsibility to take charge of their own future.

However, like I said, in order to produce that kind of African leadership you need institutions. And those institutions have to have an African first mindset. Those instutions don't exist in Africa and those that do are few and far between. Most Africans who are in leadership roles in Africa are educated or trained in Western Universities or by Western missionaries and funded by Western corporations or interests. All of this represents institutions that are not controlled by Africans and promote a non African agenda in the minds of African leaders.

So in theory what you are saying is nice, but the facts on the ground say otherwise. Mugabe was educated in white schools in Rhodesia and then got honorary degrees from schools in England, if he did not actually attend any there.

You keep trying to pretend that it is just simple and easy for Africans to rise to positions of power in Africa without being affected by foreign influence.

The next president of Zimbabwe is going to have the same non African interests playing a role in their funding and backing as Mugabe and African leaders. That is just a fact. You can sit here an play all these games and deny those facts if you want but I choose not to. Africans are poor and with no money and resources you will go for whoever is feeding you and giving out money and in most cases this means non Africans.

Now if there were Afrian billionaires who were paying off African leaders in corrupt deals that would be one thing, but in most cases it is foreign governments and foreign companies who have to money to bribe African officials.....

So are you saying Mobutu who overthrew Patrice Lumumba wasn't influenced, educated and trained by Non Africans? Seriously?

I don' get it with folks insisting on believing in nonsense when the facts are available online and plain as day.

Everthing in this quote below supports what I am saying. Whatever it is you believe it isn't based on any historical facts.
quote:

Early years

Mobutu, a member of the Ngbandi ethnic group,[6] was born in Lisala, Belgian Congo.[7] Mobutu's mother, Marie Madeleine Yemo, was a hotel maid who fled to Lisala to escape the harem of a local village chief. There she met and married Albéric Gbemani, a cook for a Belgian judge.[8] Shortly afterwards she gave birth to Mobutu. The name "Mobutu" was selected by an uncle.

Gbemani died when Mobutu was eight.[9] Thereafter he was raised by an uncle and a grandfather.

The wife of the Belgian judge took a liking to Mobutu and taught him to speak, read, and write the French language fluently. Yemo relied on the help of relatives to support her four children, and the family moved often. Mobutu's earliest education took place in Léopoldville, but his mother eventually sent him to an uncle in Coquilhatville, where he attended the Christian Brothers School, a Catholic-mission boarding school. A physically imposing figure, he dominated school sports. He also excelled in academic subjects and ran the class newspaper. He was also known for his pranks and impish sense of humor. A classmate recalled that when the Belgian priests, whose first language was Dutch, made an error in French, Mobutu would leap to his feet in class and point out the mistake. In 1949 Mobutu stowed away aboard a boat to Léopoldville and met a girl. The priests found him several weeks later. At the end of the school year, in lieu of being sent to prison, he was ordered to serve seven years in the colonial army, the Force Publique (FP) - the usual punishment for rebellious students.[10]
Army service

Mobutu found discipline in army life, as well as a father figure in Sergeant Louis Bobozo. Mobutu kept up his studies by borrowing European newspapers from the Belgian officers and books from wherever he could find them, reading them on sentry duty and whenever he had a spare moment. His favorites were the writings of French President Charles de Gaulle, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Italian philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli. After passing a course in accounting, he began to dabble professionally in journalism. Still angry after his clashes with the school priests, he did not marry in a church. His contribution to the wedding festivities was a crate of beer, all his army salary could afford.[11]

As a soldier, Mobutu wrote pseudonymously on contemporary politics for a new magazine set up by a Belgian colonial, Actualités Africaines. In 1956, he quit the army and became a full-time journalist,[12] writing for the Léopoldville daily L'Avenir.[13] Two years later, he went to Belgium to cover the 1958 World Exposition and stayed to receive training in journalism. By this time, Mobutu had met many of the young Congolese intellectuals who were challenging colonial rule. He became friendly with Patrice Lumumba and joined Lumumba's Mouvement National Congolais (MNC). Mobutu eventually became Lumumba's personal aide, though several contemporaries indicate that Belgian intelligence had recruited Mobutu to be an informer.[14]

During the 1960 talks in Brussels on Congolese independence, the US embassy held a reception for the Congolese delegation. Embassy staff were each assigned a list of delegation members to meet, and then discussed their impressions. The ambassador noted, "One name kept coming up. But it wasn't on anyone's list because he wasn't an official delegation member, he was Lumumba's secretary. But everyone agreed that this was an extremely intelligent man, very young, perhaps immature, but a man with great potential."[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobutu_Sese_Seko
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Mugabe was educated in white schools in Rhodesia and then got honorary degrees from schools in England, if he did not actually attend any there.


If Robert Mugabe went to prison for 10 years for speaking and organizing against the Rhodesian government and founded ZANU to resist the British and later as prime minister redistributed white owned colonial land to blacks

So why is his education relevant?

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jantavanta
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Mugabe was educated in white schools in Rhodesia and then got honorary degrees from schools in England, if he did not actually attend any there.


If Robert Mugabe went to prison for 10 years for speaking and organizing against the Rhodesian government and founded ZANU to resist the British and later as prime minister redistributed white owned colonial land to blacks

So why is his education relevant?

His education is relevant, because the greatest colonising force in Africa is The School; from Kindergarten to University. The school is responsible for the self-alienation of future African leaders. The issue of institutions raised by Doug is very relevant to the problem of Africa. If African leaders do not have a God/Goddess in their own image, how can they pursue the interests of African People? If they are married to European spouses, whose policies will they implement?

The School in the Americas, Europe and Africa teaches Africans that they are a NOBODY in history.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by jantavanta:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Mugabe was educated in white schools in Rhodesia and then got honorary degrees from schools in England, if he did not actually attend any there.


If Robert Mugabe went to prison for 10 years for speaking and organizing against the Rhodesian government and founded ZANU to resist the British and later as prime minister redistributed white owned colonial land to blacks

So why is his education relevant?

His education is relevant, because the greatest colonising force in Africa is The School; from Kindergarten to University. The school is responsible for the self-alienation of future African leaders. The issue of institutions raised by Doug is very relevant to the problem of Africa. If African leaders do not have a God/Goddess in their own image, how can they pursue the interests of African People? If they are married to European spouses, whose policies will they implement?

The School in the Americas, Europe and Africa teaches Africans that they are a NOBODY in history.

 -

We are talking about Robert Mugabe. He does not have a European wife


 -
-Louise Marie Diop Maes, wife of Cheikh Anta Diop


^ These two pictures contradict what you are saying. Cheikh Anta Diop is the greatest proponent of African History in the modern era and his wife didn't stop him.

Cheikh Anta Diop University in Senegal has an enrollment of over 60,000.

Having a great history by no means guarantees you are great today.

It is very incomplete to not discuss alternatives and to only wallow in pessimism like Doug is so fond of doing.

Egyptian culture died out 2,000 years ago.

Igbos and Yoruba are the largest ethnic groups in Africa so perhaps they could be a starting point in looking at governance and social organization, also Zulu, Fula and other cultures


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jantavanta
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Mugabe from Prison to Power? Jomo Kenyatta from Prison to Power? Nelson Mandela? Prison to Power does not solve the problem of the miseducation of Africans.

Mugabe may not have had an European wife, but why is he bearing the name Robert?

Check Anta Diop is great to you in the Americas, but only for intellectual excitement. Senegal remains the same. He could not profer any solution to a country dominated by four Muslim(2nd Line White Supremacist) Brotherhoods and ruled by Presidents with European wives. He never gave the Senegalese common man a God in his own image.


In Nigeria we have the Highest Spiritual Centre of the Universe in Ibadan, a Yoruba territory. So we have a Yoruba African Institution, where European names are not used. We have no need for ancient Egyptian references.

It is typical for White People to attach a White spouse to any African or Black Person who is an achiever. Pele of Brazil, Serena Williams, Chieik Anta Diop, etc That is how they maintain their benefits from Black People.

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lamin
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Lioness,
The largest ethnic groups in Africa are the Hausa which is some 45 million people the the Oromo of Ethiopia, some 40 million people.

In the above discussion, some anomalous cases stand out. South Korea was colonized by Japan then heavily influenced by the U.S. yet the Koreans have managed to industrialize and advanced. Same for Japan which had to discard its traditional feudal institutions after defeat by the U.S. during world WW II. Again, we can mention Singapore and Malaysia--colonized by the British with Malaysia still under the influence of Arab Islam

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lamin
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The nation states are all conglomerations of ethnic groups--as a result of Berlin Conference impositions. But the alternatives are some 500 relatively small and ineffective statelets or the unification of all those small and weak neocolonial states into more effective groups.

The Europeans and the East Asians have been able to move away from having potentially disruptive ethnic groups in their state formations--which explains their national strengths to a certain extent.

Europe of the past was home to Picts, Angles, Saxons, Celts, Bretons, Normans, Vikings, Huns, Vandals, etc. If you ask a modern German "what is your tribe?" he would be puzzled by such a question. Same for China. China is "Han China" and a citizen of Beijing would be also be puzzled by a question about his "tribal grouping".

In Ethiopia there is constant conflict between Omoro and Amharic. In Nigeria, always oppositional forces between the Muslim Hausa, and the South--Yoruba and Igbo--essentially. Same in South Africa, the Congo, and Sudan. That vicious war in South Sudan is due to identity affiliations that are not compatible with the idea of the modern nation state.

At the back of all this is the lack of any modernizing ideology. Just pervasive greed, corruption, general stupidity, narrow ethnocentrism and naive affiliations to the pernicious impacts of Arab cultural imperialism in the form of Islam and European Christianity.

One question though is this: how was the U.S. able to eventually create a society based on the "unification of Europe" in terms of its
inputs from all over the European world?

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lamin
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One answer to the question above concerning how the U.S. was able to forge an "e pluribus unum" for its migrants from Europe is the fact of language. Germans, Irish, Italians, etc, migrants to the U.S. all agreed that they should discard their original languages and embrace English--the language of the original British colonizers. But how would this work out in Africa?

Another interesting fact is that while there is unity around the language of English, the different groups in the U.S. see the need to embrace the Jewish ethic for Jews, and the Christian ethic for Christians. Judaism is very old, but Jews still celebrate Passover. Christians still celebrate the birth of their totem, Christ. In China, old traditions still hold and there is a subconscious identification with the Confucian ethic, etc.


Yet with Africa, the Ancient Egyptian ethic has almost zero affiliates and is even not known. How many Africans are aware of the Hymn of Aton, etc.?


Change is not impossible because people, in general, tend just to follow and conform. Example: there was a radical transformation when Thomas Sankara took power in Upper Volta and charted a new beginning with the newly named nation state of Burkina Faso--the "Land of Upright men". France did not like that attempt at independence so Sankara was betrayed and murdered by his friend Blaise Campaore-- under the tutelage of the French. Campaore, as President of Bukina Faso, did the bidding of the French until he was deposed and forced into exile.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:


One question though is this: how was the U.S. able to eventually create a society based on the "unification of Europe" in terms of its
inputs from all over the European world?

First Christianity conquered other belief systems in Europe.
Then the printing press and literacy spread information
And when they came to America, the states were mainly established by the British and they ways. Other European nations had some territory but they lost it.
It was a new migration to a large land mass so there was more flexibility and less tradition. Early colonists were trying to escape the Church of England.
Other Europeans, Germans, Dutch and French came but English was the official language.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
Lioness,
The largest ethnic groups in Africa are the Hausa which is some 45 million people the the Oromo of Ethiopia, some 40 million people.

In the above discussion, some anomalous cases stand out. South Korea was colonized by Japan then heavily influenced by the U.S. yet the Koreans have managed to industrialize and advanced. Same for Japan which had to discard its traditional feudal institutions after defeat by the U.S. during world WW II. Again, we can mention Singapore and Malaysia--colonized by the British with Malaysia still under the influence of Arab Islam

Yes but you are often the one arguing for traditional African religion
"Advanced" to an extent could be a Western concept

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by jantavanta:

In Nigeria we have the Highest Spiritual Centre of the Universe in Ibadan, a Yoruba territory. So we have a Yoruba African Institution, where European names are not used. We have no need for ancient Egyptian references.


So is that increasing or decreasing?
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lamin
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Fool, where did I argue for traditional African religion? Only 1 case deserves some consideration--the Monotheism of Ancient Egypt.
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lamin
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Fool, where did I argue for traditional African religion? Only 1 case deserves some consideration--the Monotheism of Ancient Egypt.
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the lioness,
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So you are confirming what I said but calling me a fool at the same time, good one

Atenism was rejected by the Egyptians and the Amarna were stricken from the kings list

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lamin
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You did not answer my question and second, because something is rejected does not mean it doesn't have merits. History is full of such cases.

Example: The Jews rejected Christ but others found his teachings useful--hence Christianity.

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jantavanta
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by jantavanta:

In Nigeria we have the Highest Spiritual Centre of the Universe in Ibadan, a Yoruba territory. So we have a Yoruba African Institution, where European names are not used. We have no need for ancient Egyptian references.


So is that increasing or decreasing?
For now, it is not increasing or decreasing. This is because a lot of dollars were spent by the same external powers to fund Pentecostalism and Wahabism in order to make sure Nigerians remain ancestrally disconnected. To keep Africa down, keep Nigeria down with eternal affiliations to Gods of mass destruction.
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quote:
Originally posted by jantavanta:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by jantavanta:

In Nigeria we have the Highest Spiritual Centre of the Universe in Ibadan, a Yoruba territory. So we have a Yoruba African Institution, where European names are not used. We have no need for ancient Egyptian references.


So is that increasing or decreasing?
For now, it is not increasing or decreasing. This is because a lot of dollars were spent by the same external powers to fund Pentecostalism and Wahabism in order to make sure Nigerians remain ancestrally disconnected. To keep Africa down, keep Nigeria down with eternal affiliations to Gods of mass destruction.
Yorubas of the Oyo empire?
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lamin
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The Yorubas are a well-known group in Nigeria and Benin Republic--with dual religious affiliations to Islam and Christianity. But they fought many wars among themselves and bartered off their many prisoners of war to shipping slavers waiting on the West African coast. The exiled prisoners of war ended up as slaves in places like Brazil and Cuba.

In so doing, the Yoruba broke a cardinal rule of human self-regard. Prisoners of war should not be sold off to outsiders from overseas but either set free or used as labour in the victorious group's lands. Even when the British abolished slave trading in 1806 they had to stop the wicked trade by blocking smuggler ships from transporting captives to the Americas. These British patrol ships docked many of those recaptives in their Freetown colony. Ajayi Crowther was one of those.

Yet the Yorubas do not seem to have understood their self-inflicted wounds as crimes. They have never asked for the return of their people sold off to Brazil, Cuba and other parts--where they are abused and suffer racial and economic discrimination. They naively expect Brazil and Cuba to treat their kith and kin better.

Annual festivals in Oshogbo are not enough, the Yorubas must clean up their act.

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jantavanta
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quote:
Originally posted by lamin:
The Yorubas are a well-known group in Nigeria and Benin Republic--with dual religious affiliations to Islam and Christianity. But they fought many wars among themselves and bartered off their many prisoners of war to shipping slavers waiting on the West African coast. The exiled prisoners of war ended up as slaves in places like Brazil and Cuba.

In so doing, the Yoruba broke a cardinal rule of human self-regard. Prisoners of war should not be sold off to outsiders from overseas but either set free or used as labour in the victorious group's lands. Even when the British abolished slave trading in 1806 they had to stop the wicked trade by blocking smuggler ships from transporting captives to the Americas. These British patrol ships docked many of those recaptives in their Freetown colony. Ajayi Crowther was one of those.

Yet the Yorubas do not seem to have understood their self-inflicted wounds as crimes. They have never asked for the return of their people sold off to Brazil, Cuba and other parts--where they are abused and suffer racial and economic discrimination. They naively expect Brazil and Cuba to treat their kith and kin better.

Annual festivals in Oshogbo are not enough, the Yorubas must clean up their act.

@lamin In addition, those who returned from Brazil maintained their affiliations to a Brazilian heritage.

@Lioness Yes the Yorubas of the Oyo Empire. Their Kings now realise the need for a restoration of a strong African institution.

@lamin They need to clean up their History. Their dual religious affiliations is holding back Nigeria, holding back Africa and holding back the entire African-centered people of the World. I think we need a revival of our some indigenous systems of government that were replaced by colonial military rule and political parties. Senegal had to do away with a dual National Assembly because it was too expensive.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by jantavanta:
we need a revival of our some indigenous systems of government ]

can you describe it?
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mena7
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Ironical that Mugabe was trained in Ghana during Nkrumah's time. That's where he met his first wife, Sally Mugabe. She died from an illness and Mugabe then took up with his present wife, Grace Mugabe. That's the source of the problem.

Mugabe squandered his anti-colonialist legacy because of his weak-kneed entrapment by some ignorant typist.

Now the white Western press is pushing Mugabe's present problems with very regular news on Mugabe. Zimbabwe is a relatively small African country with not much geopolitical significance, so why this gleeful emphasis on Mugabe. Easy answer: the white West is still enraged that Mugabe and the war veterans seized the lands the settler whites stole with killings of the locals and much violence.

In an enraged frenzy the West imposed a very painful credit squeeze on Zimbabwe forcing a massive devaluation on the Zimbabwe dollar. The West's goal was to bring down Mugabe's government in order to replace it their massaged puppet Morgan Tsvangirai. The Western media hardly touches on the reason why Zimbabwe had its economic woes.

Mugabe was wrong to allow the blatant corruption if his useless wife--a total ignoramus and blot on Africa. Total lack of good sense. It would seem that the wife is the one who encouraged him to stay on so she could build up enough of a power base to become President. A total misjudgment.

But again, one of Africa's curses rears its ugly head again. Leaders who just don't want to step down when when the time is ripe.

Mugabe did have some Pan-African credentials and was in syn with Gaddafi. So the last Nkrumah's proteges is now being purged. Nkrumah was overthrown by the U.S. government led by Lyndon Johnson with black ambassador Franklin Williams who pushed through the coup along with Ghana's very compliant army. Then Ghaddafi as Nkruhmah's Pan African successor was slaughtered by Obama and Hillary Clinton in 2011. Libya's racist Arabs and Al Quaida were the hit men for the U.S., France, Britain and NATO at that time.

The problem with Africa's leaders is that they don't understand the relentless war the West is waging against them to keep control of Africa's resources. Any leader who challenges Western real politik in Africa must always be on guard.

Of the current crop of 55 presidents in Africa none is serious about real development. They are always on the corrupt take and show little sympathy for their citizens always fleeing across the Sahara to drown in the Mediterranean or to land in Europe to deal drugs, sell trinkets on the roadside or engage in petty crime.

Great analysis of Zimbabwe political history Lamin.

--------------------
mena

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mena7
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Mugabe from Prison to Power? Jomo Kenyatta from Prison to Power? Nelson Mandela? Prison to Power does not solve the problem of the miseducation of Africans.

Mugabe may not have had an European wife, but why is he bearing the name Robert?

Check Anta Diop is great to you in the Americas, but only for intellectual excitement. Senegal remains the same. He could not profer any solution to a country dominated by four Muslim(2nd Line White Supremacist) Brotherhoods and ruled by Presidents with European wives. He never gave the Senegalese common man a God in his own image.


In Nigeria we have the Highest Spiritual Centre of the Universe in Ibadan, a Yoruba territory. So we have a Yoruba African Institution, where European names are not used. We have no need for ancient Egyptian references.

It is typical for White People to attach a White spouse to any African or Black Person who is an achiever. Pele of Brazil, Serena Williams, Chieik Anta Diop, etc That is how they maintain their benefits from Black People.

Nice post Jantavanta I agree the White elite are encouraging successful Black people to marry White people or have a White mistress. I think it is a strategy to control and spy on the successful Black person.

--------------------
mena

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