quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: I will repost this one last time. Doug, this confirms what you were saying about antalies' pseudo argument(s) on the matter.
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: 15,000 years ago, Moroccans (North Africans) were a mixture of Levantine and Sub-Saharan African. Current day North Africans are largely related to Eurasian populations.
Actually, this study actually gives ammunition to people like Antalas, because if you look at the part referencing "back to Africa migrations" it links to the following study, which says:
quote: North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data (730,000 sites) from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene.
The problem is that this paper is old and based on current DNA, not ancient DNA and the other problem is it presents Morocco as a proxy for "all of North Africa". This is the game played by the scholarly community taking one small part of North Africa and trying to act like it represents a region larger than the continental United States. This is deliberate misinformation intended exactly to reinforce the kinds of talking points seen from Antalas. But that is by design and intentional, as we know Europeans have for the longest time been claiming that North Africa is home to an ancient "white" racial group.
And you can see this deceptive data sampling in the following image where they sample populations along the coast of North Africa, then skip over the Sahara and Sahel to sample populations in West Africa. As if there are no and have not been Africans in the Sahara for tens of thousands of years. We have dissected this study many times here on this forum.
More recently there has been ancient DNA sampled from North Africa and those papers indicate African ancestry in the Iberomaurisans, also in the area of Morocco. Such aDNA shows clearly a West African/Sahelian component of those ancient populations 15,000 years ago. What it also shows is that modeling North African population history without including ancient DNA from the Sahara and Sahel is blatant distortion of history, because we know the Saharan Wet Phase impacted these populations. And the only reason they do that is because again, these European scientists for a very long time have been trying to "claim" ancient North Africa as Eurasian going back 15 to 20,000 years.
quote: North Africa is a key region for understanding human history, but the genetic history of its people is largely unknown. We present genomic data from seven 15,000-year-old modern humans, attributed to the Iberomaurusian culture, from Morocco. We find a genetic affinity with early Holocene Near Easterners, best represented by Levantine Natufians, suggesting a pre-agricultural connection between Africa and the Near East. We do not find evidence for gene flow from Paleolithic Europeans to Late Pleistocene North Africans. The Taforalt individuals derive one-third of their ancestry from sub-Saharan Africans, best approximated by a mixture of genetic components preserved in present-day West and East Africans. Thus, we provide direct evidence for genetic interactions between modern humans across Africa and Eurasia in the Pleistocene.
You have to remember that the term "Iberomaurisan" comes from European scientists who claimed that this was a culture that migrated from Europe to Africa. These aDNA studies disproved that. They also proved a direct relationship to other parts of Africa (which should have never been in doubt). However, the other part that is still open to interpretation is the relationship between these populations and the Natufians. And that is another quandry for these European scientists who have been so long denying any African influence on the Natufians. And most of this quantdy comes down to the origin of certain DNA lineages claimed as "Eurasian". We have discussed this many times on this forum.
quote: "The idea in the 1960s was that the Iberomaurusians must have got the microblades from the Gravettian," says co-author and archaeologist Louise Humphrey of the Natural History Museum in London. During the ice age 20,000 years ago, sea level would have been lower and the Iberomaurusians were thought to have crossed the Mediterranean by boat at Gibraltar or Sicily.
14 individuals associated with Iberomaurusian artifacts at the back of the Grotte des Pigeons cave in 2005. Paleogeneticists Marieke van de Loosdrecht and Johannes Krause of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (SHH) in Jena, Germany, with Matthias Meyer of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, used state-of-the-art methods to extract DNA from the ear bones of skeletons that had lain undisturbed since they were buried about 15,000 years ago. That's a major technical feat because ancient DNA degrades rapidly in warm climates; these samples are almost twice as old as any other DNA obtained from humans in Africa.
DNA in hand, Van de Loosdrecht and Choongwon Jeong, also of SHH, were able to analyze genetic material from the cell's nucleus in five people and the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA from seven people. But they found no genetic tie to ancient Europeans. Instead, the ancient Iberomaurusians appear to be related to Middle Easterners and other Africans: They shared about two-thirds of their genetic ancestry with Natufians, hunter-gatherers who lived in the Middle East 14,500 to 11,000 years ago, and one-third with sub-Saharan Africans who were most closely related to today's West Africans and the Hadza of Tanzania.
The Iberomaurusians lived before the Natufians, but they were not their direct ancestors: The Natufians lack DNA from Africa, Krause says. This suggests that both groups inherited their shared DNA from a larger population that lived in North Africa or the Middle East more than 15,000 years ago, the team reports today in Science.
Note that if the Natufians have a common ancient ancestor with the Iberomaurisans, it is most likely an African ancestor.... but of course this is why you need more ancient DNA from Africa and not just coastal Morocco and Algeria, but in the Sahara and Sahel.
And until that time, you are going to continue to see these models of ancient North Africans being some kind of "non African" mostly Eurasian population going back 20,000 years ago.
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The best representatives of the ancients are groups like the Beja. This is not only an issue of skin color but of culture and the Beja have maintained many aspects of the ancient culture. Populations in Sudan and of course Upper Egypt, but many of them have been Arabized and no longer maintain old African traditions.
The Beja based on what though? When they likely aren't even the same as their most recent ancestors, the Blemmyes
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quote: Cardium pottery or Cardial ware is a Neolithic decorative style that gets its name from the imprinting of the clay with the heart-shaped shell of the Corculum cardissa, a member of the cockle family Cardiidae. These forms of pottery are in turn used to define the Neolithic culture which produced and spread them, commonly called the "Cardial culture".
The alternative name, impressed ware, is given by some archaeologists to define this culture, because impressions can be made with sharp objects other than cockle shells, such as a nail or comb.[1] Impressed pottery is much more widespread than the Cardial.[2] Impressed ware is found in the zone "covering Italy to the Ligurian coast" as distinct from the more western Cardial extending from Provence to western Portugal. The sequence in prehistoric Europe has traditionally been supposed to start with widespread Cardial ware, and then to develop other methods of impression locally, termed "epi-Cardial". However the widespread Cardial and Impressed pattern types overlap and are now considered more likely to be contemporary.
Cardium pottery culture Geographical Southern Europe, Near East, North Africa
Period Neolithic
Dates c. 6400 BC – c. 5500 BC
The Mediterranean Neolithic
quote: This pottery style gives its name to the main culture of the Mediterranean Neolithic: Cardium pottery culture or Cardial culture, or impressed ware culture, which eventually extended from the Adriatic sea to the Atlantic coasts of Portugal and south to Morocco.[4]
The earliest impressed ware sites, dating to 6400–6200 BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC.[5] The earliest date in Italy comes from Coppa Nevigata on the Adriatic coast of southern Italy, perhaps as early as 6000 cal B.C. Also during Su Carroppu culture in Sardinia, already in its early stages (low strata into Su Coloru cave, c. 6000 BC) early examples of cardial pottery appear.[6] Northward and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal BC, which indicates a rapid spread of Cardial and related cultures: 2,000 km from the gulf of Genoa to the estuary of the Mondego in probably no more than 100–200 years. This suggests a seafaring expansion by planting colonies along the coast.[7]
Older Neolithic cultures existed already at this time in eastern Greece and Crete, apparently having arrived from Anatolia, but they appear distinct from the Cardial or impressed ware culture. The ceramic tradition in the central Balkans also remained distinct from that along the Adriatic coastline in both style and manufacturing techniques for almost 1,000 years from the 6th millennium BC.[8] Early Neolithic impressed pottery is found in the Levant, and certain parts of Anatolia, including Mezraa-Teleilat, and in North Africa at Tunus-Redeyef, Tunisia. Impressed pottery also appears in Egypt. Along the East Mediterranean coast impressed ware has been found in North Syria, Israel and Lebanon.[9]
Genetics
quote:
Olalde et al. 2015 examined the remains of 6 Cardials buried in Spain c. 5470–5220 BC. The 6 samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to the maternal haplogroups K1a2a, X2c, H4a1a (2 samples), H3 and K1a4a1.[10] The authors of the study suggested that the Cardials and peoples of the Linear Pottery Culture were descended from a common farming population in the Balkans, which had subsequently migrated further westwards into Europe along the Mediterranean coast and Danube river respectively.[11] Among modern populations, the Cardials were found to be most closely related to Sardinians and Basque people.[12] The Iberian Cardials carried a noticeable amount of hunter-gatherer ancestry. This hunter-gatherer ancestry was more similar to that of Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (EHGs) than Iberian hunter-gatherers, and appeared to have been acquired before the Cardial expansion into Iberia.[13]
Fernández et al. 2014 found traces of maternal genetic affinity between people of the Linear Pottery Culture and Cardium pottery with earlier peoples of the Near Eastern Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, including the rare mtDNA (maternal) basal haplogroup N*, and suggested that Neolithic period was initiated by seafaring colonists from the Near East.[14]
Mathieson et al. 2018 examined three Cardials buried at the Zemunica Cave near Bisko in modern-day Croatia c. 5800 BC.[15] The two samples of Y-DNA extracted belonged to the paternal haplogroups C1a2 and E1b1b1a1b1, while the three samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to the maternal haplogroups H1, K1b1a and N1a1.[16] The team further examined two Cardials buried at Kargadur in modern-day Croatia c. 5600 BC. The one male carried the paternal haplogroup G2a2a1, and the maternal haplogroup H7c, the female carried H5a.[17] All three belonged to the Early European Farmer (EEF) cluster, thus being closely related to earlier Neolithic populations of north-west Anatolia, of the Balkan Neolithic, contemporary peoples of the Central European Linear Pottery culture, and later peoples of the Cardial Ware culture in Iberia. This would suggest that the Cardial Ware people and the Linear Pottery people were derived from a single migration from Anatolia into the Balkans, which then split into two and expanded northward and westward further into Europe.[18]
The late-Neolithic Kehf el Baroud inhabitants in present-day Morocco (c. 3700 BC) were modelled as being of about 50% local North African ancestry and 50% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry. It was suggested that EEF ancestry had entered North Africa through Cardial Ware colonists from Iberia sometime between 5000 and 3700 BC. They were found to be closely related to the Guanches of the Canary Islands. The authors of the study suggested that the Berbers of Morocco carried a substantial amount of EEF ancestry before the establishment of Roman colonies in Berber Africa.[19] According to Simões (2023) human remains from the earliest Neolithic contexts in northwestern Africa had European Neolithic ancestry (c. 5400 BC), indicating that the first stages of the Neolithisation process in northwestern Africa were started by the migration of Neolithic farmers from Iberia. The earliest pottery in the Tingitan peninsula (the African portion of the Gibraltar Strait) was also of Cardial type, with clear affinities to archaic Cardial pottery from Catalonia–Valencia.[20]
Source wikipedia
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quote: Kehf el Baroud,[1] sometimes mistakenly spelled Kelif el Boroud, is an archaeological site in Morocco. It is located to the south of Rabat, near Dar es Soltan.[2]
Genetics
quote:Fregel et al. 2018 examined the remains of 8 individuals buried at Kelif el Boroud c. 3780-3650 BCE during the Neolithic.[3] The 1 sample of Y-DNA extracted belonged to the paternal haplogroup T-M184, while the 6 samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to the maternal haplogroups X2b (two samples), K1a1b1 (two samples), K1a4a1 and T2b3.[4] The examined individuals were found to share genetic affinities with individuals buried at both the Early Neolithic sites of Ifri N'Amr Ou Moussa in Morocco and the Early Neolithic Cave of El Toro in Spain. They were modelled as being of about 50% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry and 50% local North African ancestry, suggesting substantial migration from Iberia into North Africa during the Neolithic. They had a lower amount of sub-Saharan African admixture than earlier North Africans buried at Ifri N'Amr Ou Moussa. They also carried alleles associated with light skin and light eye color. They were found to be closely related to the Guanches of the Canary Islands.[5]
Taforalt
quote: Phenotypic analysis was performed on four of the Taforalt individuals with higher genomic coverage. The Taforalt individuals tested did not carry either of the derived SLC24A5 alleles associated with lighter skin color, the derived OCA2 allele associated with blue eye color, or the derived MCM6 allele associated with lactase persistence. However, they were found to carry the ancestral SLC24A4 allele associated with dark eye color, suggesting that the West-Eurasian migrant group may not have evolved light skin yet.[15]
Source wikipedia
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quote: As of about 5000 BC, the populations of North Africa were descended primarily from the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures, with a more recent intrusion being associated with the Neolithic Revolution.[67] The proto-Berber tribes evolved from these prehistoric communities during the late Bronze- and early Iron ages.[68]
Uniparental DNA analysis has established ties between Berbers and other Afroasiatic speakers in Africa. Most of these populations belong to the E1b1b paternal haplogroup, with Berber speakers having among the highest frequencies of this lineage.[69]
Additionally, genomic analysis found that Berber and other Maghreb communities have a high frequency of an ancestral component that originated in the Near East. This Maghrebi element peaks among Tunisian Berbers.[70] This ancestry is related to the Coptic/Ethio-Somali component, which diverged from these and other West Eurasian-affiliated components before the Holocene.[71]
In 2013, Iberomaurusian skeletons from the prehistoric sites of Taforalt and Afalou in the Maghreb were also analyzed for ancient DNA. All of the specimens belonged to maternal clades associated with either North Africa or the northern and southern Mediterranean littoral, indicating gene flow between these areas since the Epipaleolithic.[72] The ancient Taforalt individuals carried the mtDNA haplogroups U6, H, JT, and V, which points to population continuity in the region dating from the Iberomaurusian period.[73]
Human fossils excavated at the Ifri n'Amr ou Moussa site in Morocco have been radiocarbon dated to the Early Neolithic period, c. 5,000 BC. Ancient DNA analysis of these specimens indicates that they carried paternal haplotypes related to the E1b1b1b1a (E-M81) subclade and the maternal haplogroups U6a and M1, all of which are frequent among present-day communities in the Maghreb. These ancient individuals also bore an autochthonous Maghrebi genomic component that peaks among modern Berbers, indicating that they were ancestral to populations in the area. Additionally, fossils excavated at the Kelif el Boroud site near Rabat were found to carry the broadly-distributed paternal haplogroup T-M184 as well as the maternal haplogroups K1, T2 and X2, the latter of which were common mtDNA lineages in Neolithic Europe and Anatolia. These ancient individuals likewise bore the Berber-associated Maghrebi genomic component. This altogether indicates that the late-Neolithic Kehf el Baroud inhabitants were ancestral to contemporary populations in the area, but also likely experienced gene flow from Europe.[74]
The late-Neolithic Kehf el Baroud inhabitants were modelled as being of about 50% local North African ancestry and 50% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry. It was suggested that EEF ancestry had entered North Africa through Cardial Ware colonists from Iberia sometime between 5000 and 3000 BC. They were found to be closely related to the Guanches of the Canary Islands. The authors of the study suggested that the Berbers of Morocco carried a substantial amount of EEF ancestry before the establishment of Roman colonies in Berber Africa.[74]
Have you seen them? If so tell me what you think first.
Why? Can't you watch them and come up with your own opinions? These aren't scholars and just random youtubers, who may or may not be presenting accurate information. It is up to the viewer to decide if what they are saying is valid or not. For the most part they are only presenting variations of what we has been discussed here for years anyway and not anything brand new or unique.
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quote: As of about 5000 BC, the populations of North Africa were descended primarily from the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures, with a more recent intrusion being associated with the Neolithic Revolution.[67] The proto-Berber tribes evolved from these prehistoric communities during the late Bronze- and early Iron ages.[68]
Uniparental DNA analysis has established ties between Berbers and other Afroasiatic speakers in Africa. Most of these populations belong to the E1b1b paternal haplogroup, with Berber speakers having among the highest frequencies of this lineage.[69]
Additionally, genomic analysis found that Berber and other Maghreb communities have a high frequency of an ancestral component that originated in the Near East. This Maghrebi element peaks among Tunisian Berbers.[70] This ancestry is related to the Coptic/Ethio-Somali component, which diverged from these and other West Eurasian-affiliated components before the Holocene.[71]
In 2013, Iberomaurusian skeletons from the prehistoric sites of Taforalt and Afalou in the Maghreb were also analyzed for ancient DNA. All of the specimens belonged to maternal clades associated with either North Africa or the northern and southern Mediterranean littoral, indicating gene flow between these areas since the Epipaleolithic.[72] The ancient Taforalt individuals carried the mtDNA haplogroups U6, H, JT, and V, which points to population continuity in the region dating from the Iberomaurusian period.[73]
Human fossils excavated at the Ifri n'Amr ou Moussa site in Morocco have been radiocarbon dated to the Early Neolithic period, c. 5,000 BC. Ancient DNA analysis of these specimens indicates that they carried paternal haplotypes related to the E1b1b1b1a (E-M81) subclade and the maternal haplogroups U6a and M1, all of which are frequent among present-day communities in the Maghreb. These ancient individuals also bore an autochthonous Maghrebi genomic component that peaks among modern Berbers, indicating that they were ancestral to populations in the area. Additionally, fossils excavated at the Kelif el Boroud site near Rabat were found to carry the broadly-distributed paternal haplogroup T-M184 as well as the maternal haplogroups K1, T2 and X2, the latter of which were common mtDNA lineages in Neolithic Europe and Anatolia. These ancient individuals likewise bore the Berber-associated Maghrebi genomic component. This altogether indicates that the late-Neolithic Kehf el Baroud inhabitants were ancestral to contemporary populations in the area, but also likely experienced gene flow from Europe.[74]
The late-Neolithic Kehf el Baroud inhabitants were modelled as being of about 50% local North African ancestry and 50% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry. It was suggested that EEF ancestry had entered North Africa through Cardial Ware colonists from Iberia sometime between 5000 and 3000 BC. They were found to be closely related to the Guanches of the Canary Islands. The authors of the study suggested that the Berbers of Morocco carried a substantial amount of EEF ancestry before the establishment of Roman colonies in Berber Africa.[74]
Science from where? Got a source? Also "Berber" is a language that was once spread from the Nile across the Sahara to parts of West Africa. Therefore it is not a DNA marker or phenotype originating along the coast of North Africa as the groups speaking Berber historically have had variations in DNA and phenotype. And Berber languages originated in East Africa and spread across the Sahara into North Africa. Berber languages and culture did not originate with, Iberomaurisans, European farmers or Near Easterners. Not only that, none of the many groups of people speaking the early Berber languages used the name "berber" as that derives from "barbarian" and was created by foreigners.
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Have you seen them? If so tell me what you think first.
Why? Can't you watch them and come up with your own opinions? These aren't scholars and just random youtubers, who may or may not be presenting accurate information. It is up to the viewer to decide if what they are saying is valid or not. For the most part they are only presenting variations of what we has been discussed here for years anyway and not anything brand new or unique.
I have my own views/opinions etc..as you clearly know i do.
I think the videos have misleading info,pictures,and some truths and some lies etc.. Anybody else views on the videos?
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quote: Ifri n'Amr Ou Moussa is an archaeological site discovered in 2005, located in the rural commune of Aït Siberne, Khémisset Province, in Western Morocco. This site has revealed burials associated with both Moroccan Early Neolithic and Bell Beaker culture.
Genetics
quote: Fregel et al. 2018 examined the remains of 7 seven individuals buried at Ifri N'Amr Ou Moussa c. 5325-4786 BC.[1] The 2 samples of Y-DNA extracted belonged to the paternal haplogroup E-L19*, while the 5 samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to the maternal haplogroups M1b1*, U6a1b (two samples), U6a7b2 and U6a3.[2] The paternal haplogroup E-L19* is very common in North Africa. The maternal haplogroups are associated with migrations from Eurasia into North Africa during the Upper Paleolithic. They were found to be closely related to Stone Age people buried at Taforalt, Morocco c. 15000 BC. Both the Taforalt and Ifri N'Amr ou Moussa people were found to be related to people of the Natufian culture (c. 9000 BC) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic (c. 6500 BC) of the Levant, with whom they appeared to share a common origine. Genetic continuity with the Taforalt suggested that the ancestors of the Ifri n'Amr ou Moussa people had adopted a Neolithic lifestyle without substantial migration. Among modern populations, the examined individuals were determined to be most closely related to the Mozabite people. Individuals examined at the Late Neolithic site of Kelif el Boroud, Morocco (c. 3000 BC), carried about 50% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry, suggesting substantial migration of Cardial Ware people from Iberia into North Africa during the Neolithic. People buried at Ifri n'Amr ou Moussa and Kelif el Boroud carried a much lower amount of sub-Saharan African admixture than modern North Africans, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. They carried lower sub-Saharan African admixture than Stone Age people of Taforalt as well. The Ifri n'Amr ou Moussa people were determined to have had dark skin and dark eye color. The Guanches of the Canary Islands were modeled as a mixture of ancestry from Ifri N'Amr ou Moussa and Kelif el Boroud.[3]
Early European Farmers
Physical appearance
quote: European hunter-gatherers were much taller than EEFs, and the replacement of European hunter-gatherers by EEFs resulted in a dramatic decrease in genetic height throughout Europe. During the later phases of the Neolithic, height increased among European farmers, probably due to increasing admixture with hunter-gatherers. During the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age, further reductions of EEF ancestry in Europe due to migrations of peoples with steppe-related ancestry is associated with further increases in height.[14] High frequencies of EEF ancestry in Southern Europe might partly explain the shortness of Southern Europeans as compared to Northern Europeans, who carry increased levels of steppe-related ancestry.[15]
The Early European Farmers are believed to have been mostly dark haired and dark eyed, and light skinned.[16][17]
Reconstruction of a Neolithic farmer from Europe, Science Museum in Trento
Ancient genomes from North Africa evidence prehistoric migrations to the Maghreb from both the Levant and Europe
quote: Fregel et al. 2018 estimated that examined individuals at the Late Neolithic site of Kelif el Boroud, Morocco, dated c. 3000 BC, carried about 50% EEF ancestry and 50% North African ancestry, were genetically predisposed to have light skin and light eyes, and entirely carried paternal and maternal lineages associated with EEFs.[36] It was suggested that EEF ancestry had entered North Africa through Cardial Ware colonists from Iberia sometime between 5000 and 3000 BC.[37] The examined samples of Kelif el Boroud were found to be closely related to Guanches of the Canary Islands.[38] Additional amounts of EEF ancestry may have been brought to North Africa by the Bell Beaker culture.[38] The authors of the study suggested that the Berbers of Morocco carried a substantial amount of EEF ancestry before the establishment of Roman colonies in Berber Africa.[38]
Berbers
quote: Descended from Stone Age tribes of North Africa, accounts of the Imazighen were first mentioned in Ancient Egyptian writings.[39][40] From about 2000 BCE, Berber languages spread westward from the Nile Valley across the northern Sahara into the Maghreb. A series of Berber peoples such as the Mauri, Masaesyli, Massyli, Musulamii, Gaetuli, and Garamantes gave rise to Berber kingdoms, such as Numidia and Mauretania. Other kingdoms appeared in late antiquity, such as Altava, Aurès, Ouarsenis, and Hodna.[41]
Source wikipedia
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posted
Agriculture in Africa has a long history and did not start with European Farmers. In fact, Africans innovated the tools and techniques that would become the basis for later farming societies in grinding tools for wild seeds and plants. And the early transition to a Neolithic and Pastoral form of subsistence emerged in Africa in the Sahara and Sahel, driven by climate change. European Farmers have nothing to do with this and the so-called early Eurasian DNA lineages originated in Africa to begin with.
quote: The excavation of the 8000-year-old Hidden Valley village has highlighted the importance of wild plant exploitation in the Mid-Holocene contexts of the Farafra Oasis. This site yielded high numbers of plant macro-remains, which were analysed during the early 2000s by A.G. Fahmy. Among these, Sorghum and other species of wild grasses, often found charred in the fireplaces of the site, prevail; together with the assemblage from E−75-6 (Nabta Playa) these represent the oldest evidence of wild Sorghum exploitation in the Eastern Sahara. Hidden Valley village has also yielded one of the largest assemblages of grinding implements for the whole of North Africa, which, until recent times, had been analysed only from a techno-typological perspective. The general assumption of a direct link between grinding tools and plant exploitation has been tested, and challenged using, for the first time for North African contexts, an integrated method, carried out on the actual tools, combining low- and high-power use-wear and plant micro-residue analyses. Firstly, micro-residues (mainly starch granules and phytoliths) were extracted from the Hidden Valley grinding tools, and analysed by means of a high magnification transmitted-light microscope.
...
The primary role played by wild plants in the economy of North African prehistoric groups during the Holocene has often been underestimated, especially after the Levantine domesticated crops were imported into North Africa. On the contrary, data from the archaeological contexts located both in the Sahara and along the Mediterranean littoral has shown how North African wild plants represented a primary source of food for people during the whole of the Holocene (Barakat and Fahmy, 1999; Barich, 1992; Barker et al., 2009; Dunne et al., 2016; Fahmy, 2001, 2014; Lucarini et al., 2016; Mercuri, 2001; Tanheiser, 2011; Wasylikowa, 1992, 2001; Wasylikowa et al., 1995). During this time, the economies of North African groups entailed low-risk subsistence strategies centred around the hunting, gathering and fishing of wild resources. Local wild foods were not replaced with the introduction of domestic species from the Levant around 8200 cal. BP; they, instead, supplemented these wild resource-centred strategies, providing a greater degree of predictability (Lucarini, 2016). Among the wild plants, the Eastern Saharan contexts yielded clear evidence of a particular preference by the Early- and Mid-Holocene groups for grasses. Some of the earliest evidence of the intensive exploitation and consumption of wild grasses comes from the site of Takarkori located in the Libyan Sahara (Dunne et al., 2016; Mercuri et al., 2018); from E−75-6 and E−91-1 sites in Nabta Playa, a large basin located in the southern edge of the Egyptian Western Desert; and from the Hidden Valley village, a slab structure site located in the northern edge of the Farafra Oasis (Barich et al., 2014; Wendorf et al., 2001). These represent the oldest evidence of wild Sorghum exploitation in the Saharan belt, always found alongside very large assemblages of grinding equipment, which can be considered among the richest in the whole of North Africa for this time period (Lucarini, 2014b Wendorf and Schild, 2001b).
Starting from the Final Pleistocene (c. 19,000 cal. BP) and during the Early/Mid- Holocene several sites of the Eastern Sahara and the Nile Valley have also yielded rich assemblages of grinding tools. An association between this category of tools and plant processing, although never directly proven, has always been postulated. A general assumption of a direct link between grinding tools and plant exploitation dominated Northeastern African archaeological literature for decades; in the case of archaeological contexts where plant remains and grinding tools were found in proximity, this assumption was mainly based on contextual associations (Banks, 1980; Lucarini, 2014b; Roubet, 1989; Wendorf and Schild 2001b: 451). In other cases, where grinding equipment came from surface archaeological sites (e.g. Mohamed, 2001: 425–426; Riemer, 2006: 511; Wendorf and Schild, 2001b: 461), or from areas lacking more precise contextual information (e.g. Storemyr, 2014), the use of tools has been speculated based on different attributes, e.g. morphology, shape, size, or visible wear traces, which has allowed, at best, to generically link the artefacts to possible plants or pigment processing. A plant residue analysis was attempted on a group of surface/subsurface grinding tools from the Terminal Late Palaeolithic site of Wadi Kubbaniya in Egypt. The items yielded several modified phytoliths belonging to festucoid, chloridoid and panicoid plants (Banks et al., 2015). The two published works carried out on the non-knapped stone tool assemblage from the Haua Fteah cave, Cyrenaica, Libya (Barton et al., 2018; Lucarini et al., 2016), can be considered as the first studies carried out in North Africa in which a direct association between grinding equipment and plant material has been well documented through the combined use of use-wear and plant residue analyses. In the research presented here we further developed the methodology adopted in our Lucarini et al. (2016) paper through the application of the high-power approach in the analysis of the use-wear traces. This allowed a very precise characterization of the polish detected on the tools’ surfaces.
quote: Because Africa’s climate hampers DNA preservation, knowledge of its genetic variability is mainly restricted to modern samples, even though population genetics dynamics and back-migrations from Eurasia may have modified haplotype frequencies, masking ancient genetic scenarios. Thanks to improved methodologies, ancient genetic data for the African continent are now increasingly available, starting to fill in the gap. Here we present newly obtained mitochondrial genomes from two ~7000-year-old individuals from Takarkori rockshelter, Libya, representing the earliest and first genetic data for the Sahara region. These individuals carry a novel mutation motif linked to the haplogroup N root. Our result demonstrates the presence of an ancestral lineage of the N haplogroup in the Holocene “Green Sahara”, associated to a Middle Pastoral (Neolithic) context.
...
Our research reveals that the Neolithic Saharan individuals from Takarkori present a haplotype not previously identified in Africa, that belongs to a basal branch of haplogroup N. This discovery needs to be addressed cautiously, given its potential geographical, chronological and archaeological implications (Fig. 4). As recently suggested23, the presence of an unexpected branch where other clades prevail in the population may provide an indication of ancestry, but more data are necessary. The Saharan region was interested by strong climatic oscillations. Repeated peaks of humidity and the presence of several intermittent pulses of lake activity occurred between 125 and 11 ka25. Warmer and wetter environmental conditions characterized the Late Glacial Bølling/Allerød Interstadial26 allowing population growth and spread. The return of cooler, drier conditions during the Younger Dryas may have prompted human groups to exploit glacial refugia across this region. Interestingly the molecular date of the Takarkori sequence (12,325 BP) falls into the context of the Interstadial expansion. The analysed samples, dated to ~7000 BP, could represent a signal of a mitochondrial lineage that later disappeared because of genetic drift due to population contraction and isolation with the beginning of desertification27,28. A possible scenario envisages an introgression from Eurasia in ancient times that carried haplotypes that have since disappeared from Africa. The timing of this migration remains difficult to define. Late Pleistocene dispersal from Western Asia into Africa around 39–52 ka is suggested by the expansion of the U6 haplogroup29,30, with a potentially corresponding archaeological signature in the MSA Dabban industry of Cyrenaica, Libya, ca. 45–40 ka31. Individuals carrying a N haplogroup basal lineage could have followed the same dispersion pattern as U6: their legacy could have been survived up to ∼7000 years ago in the central Sahara thanks to the climatic conditions previously described, but replaced and disappeared in other parts of North Africa. Genomic data for seven 15,000-year-old individuals attributed to the Iberomaurusian culture in Taforalt (Morocco) suggest a connection with Epipaleolithic Natufians from Near East, while seem to exclude a possible gene flow from Upper Paleolithic Europe32. Our samples postdate the Taforalt individuals by up to 8,000 years and belong to Neolithic pastoral cultures of the Middle Holocene. It is known that livestock was introduced from Southwest Asia33 and early pastoralist connections between Northeast Africa and Arabia are indicated by a few sites along the Red Sea with sheep/goat dated to ~8.1–7.5 ka34–36. Thus, the spread of pastoralism from the Levant to Northeast Africa could probably represent the context for the introgression of the N haplogroup into the central Sahara, even if it is commonly associated with derivative lineages (N1)1,37. It is worth noting, however, that when geometric morphometric analysis of the skull of TK RS H1 is compared with a large published dataset it shows closer affinities with sub-Saharan contests38, such as Gobero in Niger whose occupation is dated from ~9.6–4.8 ka39. Unfortunately, no genetic data are available for this region that could help understanding the possible origin of the haplotype found at Takarkori.
Again, showing why any ancient DNA analysis of "North Africa" excluding the Sahara and Sahel is a waste of time.
And the origin of pottery in Africa predates anything in Europe:
quote: New excavations in ravines at Ounjougou in Mali have brought to light a lithic and ceramic assemblage that dates from before 9400 cal BC. The authors show that this ?rst use of pottery coincides with a warm wet period in the Sahara. As in East Asia, where very early ceramics are also known, the pottery and small bifacial arrowheads were the components of a new subsistence strategy exploiting an ecology associated with abundant wild grasses. In Africa, however, the seeds were probably boiled (then as now) rather than made into bread
....
The emergence of pottery in Africa during the tenth millennium cal BC exploitation of plant and animal resources, often including small-seeded grasses (Richerson et al. 2001). In Africa, the earliest pottery has been found in the large mountain massifs of the Central Sahara, in the Eastern Sahara and the Nile Valley. About 30 14C and luminescence dates have placed the emergence of ceramics in the Sahara and the Nile Valley between the end of the tenth and the beginning of the ninth millennium cal BC (Close 1995: 24-7; Roset 2000; Jesse 2003: 40-42; Haaland 2007: 171-5). This can be related to the sudden onset of a warmer and wetter climate in the Early Holocene that enabled the re-settling of the Sahara after the hyperarid phase of the last glacial maximum, the ‘Ogolien’ (Nelson et al. 2002: 97-9). The origin of the earliest African pottery is controversial and has been much discussed, with three hypothetical scenarios proposed. The ?rst theory places the emergence of ceramics in the Nile Valley, based principally on the early exploitation of aquatic resources and wild cereals in this region (Haaland 1992: 47). The second suggests an origin somewhere south of the Sahara (Close 1995: 23), but until recently the oldest ?nds of sub-Saharan ceramics were only dated to the eighth millennium cal BC, both at Lothagam in Kenya (Robbins 1974), and in the Ravin du Hibou at Ounjougou in Mali, for Phase 2 of its Holocene occupation sequence (Huysecom et al. 2004: 584). A third assumes that pottery was invented by relict populations who had survived in ecological refuge zones of the Sahara during the hyperarid Late Pleistocene (Jesse 2003: 43). Within the framework of the international research project ‘Palaeoenvironment and Human Population of West Africa’ (Huysecom 2002), we have discovered ceramic sherds at the site of Ravin de la Mouche at Ounjougou, associated with an original lithic industry and in strati?ed contexts dated from before the end of the tenth millennium cal BC. This discovery throws new light on the chronology of the emergence of ceramics in Africa and its environmental context.
Again showing how this obsession with coastal North Africa is simply a distortion of the facts that the history of "North Africa" does not start with the coasts of the Mediterranean.
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quote: As of about 5000 BC, the populations of North Africa were descended primarily from the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures, with a more recent intrusion being associated with the Neolithic Revolution.As of about 5000 BC, the populations of North Africa were descended primarily from the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures, with a more recent intrusion being associated with the Neolithic Revolution.[67] The proto-Berber tribes evolved from these prehistoric communities during the late Bronze- and early Iron ages.[68]
Neolithic Revolution In Africa
quote:
On the African continent, three areas have been identified as independently developing agriculture: the Ethiopian highlands, the Sahel and West Africa.[74] By contrast, Agriculture in the Nile River Valley is thought to have developed from the original Neolithic Revolution in the Fertile Crescent. Many grinding stones are found with the early Egyptian Sebilian and Mechian cultures and evidence has been found of a neolithic domesticated crop-based economy dating around 7,000 BP.[75][76] Unlike the Middle East, this evidence appears as a "false dawn" to agriculture, as the sites were later abandoned, and permanent farming then was delayed until 6,500 BP with the Tasian culture and Badarian culture and the arrival of crops and animals from the Near East.
Bananas and plantains, which were first domesticated in Southeast Asia, most likely Papua New Guinea, were re-domesticated in Africa possibly as early as 5,000 years ago. Asian yams and taro were also cultivated in Africa.[74]
The most famous crop domesticated in the Ethiopian highlands is coffee. In addition, khat, ensete, noog, teff and finger millet were also domesticated in the Ethiopian highlands. Crops domesticated in the Sahel region include sorghum and pearl millet. The kola nut was first domesticated in West Africa. Other crops domesticated in West Africa include African rice, yams and the oil palm.[74]
Agriculture spread to Central and Southern Africa in the Bantu expansion during the 1st millennium BC to 1st millennium CE.
quote: As of about 5000 BC, the populations of North Africa were descended primarily from the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures, with a more recent intrusion being associated with the Neolithic Revolution.As of about 5000 BC, the populations of North Africa were descended primarily from the Iberomaurusian and Capsian cultures, with a more recent intrusion being associated with the Neolithic Revolution.[67] The proto-Berber tribes evolved from these prehistoric communities during the late Bronze- and early Iron ages.[68]
Neolithic Revolution In Africa
quote:
On the African continent, three areas have been identified as independently developing agriculture: the Ethiopian highlands, the Sahel and West Africa.[74] By contrast, Agriculture in the Nile River Valley is thought to have developed from the original Neolithic Revolution in the Fertile Crescent. Many grinding stones are found with the early Egyptian Sebilian and Mechian cultures and evidence has been found of a neolithic domesticated crop-based economy dating around 7,000 BP.[75][76] Unlike the Middle East, this evidence appears as a "false dawn" to agriculture, as the sites were later abandoned, and permanent farming then was delayed until 6,500 BP with the Tasian culture and Badarian culture and the arrival of crops and animals from the Near East.
Bananas and plantains, which were first domesticated in Southeast Asia, most likely Papua New Guinea, were re-domesticated in Africa possibly as early as 5,000 years ago. Asian yams and taro were also cultivated in Africa.[74]
The most famous crop domesticated in the Ethiopian highlands is coffee. In addition, khat, ensete, noog, teff and finger millet were also domesticated in the Ethiopian highlands. Crops domesticated in the Sahel region include sorghum and pearl millet. The kola nut was first domesticated in West Africa. Other crops domesticated in West Africa include African rice, yams and the oil palm.[74]
Agriculture spread to Central and Southern Africa in the Bantu expansion during the 1st millennium BC to 1st millennium CE.
Wikipedia is not an up to date source on things in history given new papers and findings over the years.
"North Africans" do not all descend from Iberomaurisans and Capsians. Only certain COASTAL North African groups descend from them. Populations in the Sahara and Sahel and those in the Nile Valley are also North Africans and do not descend from those groups.
And likewise, agriculture in Africa goes back long before 5000 BC and has local indigenous evolutionary elements along from over 10 thousand years ago. Such as the key sites of human settlement on the Nile in Wadi Kubbaniya and other Southern parts of the Nile. The Sahara Wet phase was also a key era of this evolution all within Africa.
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posted
The info above was for the northwest africa and and the rest of northern africa(closer to the coast etc..) not egypt and not all of north africa.
This is my view of the berbers of northern west africa looking at the info above.
Iberomaurusian and Capsian folks were black.
The first proto-berbers were black and white. Some became brown later.
When they became the berbers in the late bronze to early iron age the berbers were black,white and brown. Most were black.
By the the time of the roman empire most were brown and white,some were still black.
The largest number of the group were brown,then white then black. It is that way now in modern times.
For the egyptians,the first egyptians were black but when the civilization came most were black.
Civilization in egypt started in lower egypt from blacks from upper egypt with influences from sumer and nubia.
pre history Lower egypt at this time was mostly white and upper egypt was black or mostly black.
Brown types in lower egypt were growing in numbers by the way and in time became the major group in lower egypt.
Ancient egyptians remain mostly black in ancient times.
This change in the late middles ages to early modern period and today mst are brown but still some are black and some are white.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Firewall: This is my view of the berbers looking at the info above.
Iberomaurusian and Capsian folks were black.
The first proto-berbers were black and white. Some became brown later.
When they became the berbers in the late bronze to early iron age the berbers were black,white and brown. Most were black.
By the the time of the roman empire most were brown and white,some were still black.
The largest number of the group were brown,then white then black. It is that way now in modern times.
For the egyptians,the first egyptians were black but when the civilization came most were black.
Civilization in egypt started in lower egypt from blacks from upper egypt with influences from sumer and nubia.
pre history Lower egypt at this time was mostly white and upper egypt was black or mostly black.
Brown types in lower egypt were growing in numbers by the way and in time became the major group in lower egypt.
Ancient egyptians remain mostly black in ancient times.
This change in the late middles ages to early modern period and today mst are brown but still some are black and some are white.
What do you mean by the first "Berbers"? Like I said, "Berber" is a language and culture and that language and culture originated in East Africa and migrated across the Sahara. You seem to imply that this began in coastal North Africa due to migrations of Eurasians when it did not. The word "berber" was never used by any ancient populations of coastal North Africa prior to Arab contact. Because again, this language and culture was spread along a huge area from the Nile Valley to Western Africa and the Sahel. And that did not originate along the coasts of North Africa. The problem being that modern coastal North Africans have taken up the mantle of "berber" identity as exclusive to coastal North Africa when that has no validity historically. In fact, they actually took the Tifinagh script from Saharan Tuaregs to use in this effort and those groups are not coastal populations.
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quote:Originally posted by Firewall: This is my view of the berbers looking at the info above.
Iberomaurusian and Capsian folks were black.
The first proto-berbers were black and white. Some became brown later.
When they became the berbers in the late bronze to early iron age the berbers were black,white and brown. Most were black.
By the the time of the roman empire most were brown and white,some were still black.
The largest number of the group were brown,then white then black. It is that way now in modern times.
For the egyptians,the first egyptians were black but when the civilization came most were black.
Civilization in egypt started in lower egypt from blacks from upper egypt with influences from sumer and nubia.
pre history Lower egypt at this time was mostly white and upper egypt was black or mostly black.
Brown types in lower egypt were growing in numbers by the way and in time became the major group in lower egypt.
Ancient egyptians remain mostly black in ancient times.
This change in the late middles ages to early modern period and today mst are brown but still some are black and some are white.
What do you mean by the first "Berbers"? Like I said, "Berber" is a language and culture and that language and culture originated in East Africa and migrated across the Sahara. You seem to imply that this began in coastal North Africa due to migrations of Eurasians when it did not. The word "berber" was never used by any ancient populations of coastal North Africa prior to Arab contact. Because again, this language and culture was spread along a huge area from the Nile Valley to Western Africa and the Sahel. And that did not originate along the coasts of North Africa. The problem being that modern coastal North Africans have taken up the mantle of "berber" identity as exclusive to coastal North Africa when that has no validity historically. In fact, they actually took the Tifinagh script from Saharan Tuaregs to use in this effort and those groups are not coastal populations.
Ancient egyptian culture did not start in lower egypt but you had other races white and brown that became egyptians and had the culture.
They became africanized. Same thing with white and brown berbers. Berber culture has it's origins in east africa but other groups became berbers as well.
Even if the berber culture started in north africa it is still a african culture.
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quote: From about 2000 BCE, Berber languages spread westward from the Nile Valley across the northern Sahara into the Maghreb.
Here is more.
Proto-Berber language
quote: Roger Blench (2018)[9] suggests that Proto-Berber speakers had spread from the Nile River valley to North Africa 4,000–5,000 years ago due to the spread of pastoralism, and experienced intense language leveling about 2,000 years ago as the Roman Empire was expanding in North Africa. Hence, although Berber had split off from Afroasiatic several thousand years ago, Proto-Berber itself can only be reconstructed to a period as late as 200 A.D. Blench (2018) notes that Berber is considerably different from other Afroasiatic branches, but modern-day Berber languages displays low internal diversity. The presence of Punic borrowings in Proto-Berber points to the diversification of modern Berber language varieties subsequent to the fall of Carthage in 146 B.C.; only Guanche and Zenaga lack Punic loanwords.[9] Additionally, Latin loanwords in Proto-Berber point to the breakup of Proto-Berber between 0–200 A.D. During this time period, Roman innovations including the ox-plough, camel, and orchard management were adopted by Berber communities along the limes, or borders of the Roman Empire. In Blench's view, this resulted in a new trading culture involving the use of a lingua franca which became Proto-Berber.[9]
The Proto-Berber language comes from east africa but the berber language comes from north africa.
Here is the info for nubia.
quote: The prehistory of Nubia dates to the Paleolithic around 300,000 years ago. By about 6000 BC, peoples in the region had developed an agricultural economy.
posted
@Firewall Doug doesn't like the words "Nubia" or "berber"
you could make your same points but change to alternate words he has no problem with such as:
people of the Maghreb
people of Nile Valley
people of Kemet
Sahelians
I also strongly recommend not to refer to "North Africans" because that is too broad and there will be endless disputes about who is included in it or not
OR you can challenge him on why he disproves of "Nubia" and "Berber " but I can assure you that will not be productive, he is extremely stubborn on not liking those words and won't budge an inch, no matter how many book or article quotes you show
I recommend when talking to him, just restate your points and just not use those words "Nubia" or "berber".
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quote: According to MacDonald (2003), the regional birthplace of Nilo-Saharan speakers and Niger-Congo speakers spanned from the Nile Valley to the Maghreb, after the Aterian period.[8] In 20,000 BP, amid the Late Pleistocene, Proto-Niger-Saharan speakers, who are identified as Mechtoids, persisted along the coasts and in the mountainous areas of North Africa.[8] Between 12,000 BP and 10,000 BP, amid the Holocene, Niger-Saharan speakers migrated southward into the Sahara and linguistic divergence began to increase; subsequently, they gradually encountered, assimilated, and absorbed West African populations that persisted along coastal West Africa.[8] Libyco-Berber epigraphy, while possibly being composed in playfulness, as a form of code, or as an unknown language unrelated to modern Berber languages, may have also been composed in a Nilo-Saharan language.[36]
As of 19,000 years ago, Africans, bearing haplogroup E1b1a-V38, likely traversed across the Sahara, from east to west.[37]
Around 18,000 BP, Mende people, along with Gambian peoples, grew in population size.[38]
The Taforalts of Morocco, who have been radiocarbon dated between 15,100 cal BP and 13,900 cal BP, and were found to be 63.5% Natufian, were also found to be 36.5% Sub-Saharan African (e.g., Hadza), which is drawn out, most of all, by West Africans (e.g., Yoruba, Mende).[39] In addition to having similarity with the remnant of a more basal Sub-Saharan African lineage (e.g., a basal West African lineage shared between Yoruba and Mende peoples), the Sub-Saharan African DNA in the Taforalt people of the Iberomaurusian culture may be best represented by modern West Africans (e.g., Yoruba).[40]
In 15,000 BP, Niger-Congo speakers may have migrated from the Sahelian region of West Africa, along the Senegal River, and introduced haplogroup L2a1 into North Africa, resulting in modern Mauritanian peoples and Berbers of Tunisia inheriting it.[41]
Between 12,000 BP and 8000 BP, West African hunter-gatherers then likely migrated from coastal West Africa, toward the north of West Africa[8][4] as far as Mali, Burkina Faso,[8] and Mauritania,[9] as evidenced by their microlithic industries (e.g., quartz, sandstone).[4] Amid the early period of the Holocene, West African hunter-gatherers may have had Sahelian stone industries, from Senegal to Niger, which, while it may have derived from a distinct Sub-Saharan African stone tradition, may have derived from the Shum Laka stone tradition of Cameroon.[8]
While the Niger-Congo migration may have been from West Africa into Kordofan, possibly from Kordofan, Sudan, Niger-Congo speakers[27] (e.g., Mande),[42] accompanied by undomesticated helmeted guineafowls, may have traversed into West Africa, domesticated the helmeted guineafowls by 3000 BCE, and via the Bantu expansion, traversed into other parts of Sub-Saharan Africa (e.g., Central Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa).[27]
According to Steverding (2020), while not definite: Near the African Great Lakes, schistosomes (e.g., S. mansoni, S. haematobium) underwent evolution.[43] Subsequently, there was an expansion alongside the Nile River.[43] From Egypt, the presence of schistosomes may have expanded, via migratory Yoruba people, into Western Africa.[43] Thereafter, schistosomes may have expanded, via migratory Bantu-speaking peoples, into the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa (e.g., Southern Africa, Central Africa).[43]
In the 10th millennium BCE, Niger-Congo speakers developed pyrotechnology and employed subsistence strategy at Ounjougou, Mali.[10] Prior to 9400 BCE, Niger-Congo speakers independently created and used matured ceramic technology[10][11][12] (e.g., pottery, pots) to contain and cook grains (e.g., Digitaria exilis, pearl millet);[10][44] ethnographically and historically, West African women have been the creators of pottery in most West African ceramic traditions[45][46][11] and their production of ceramics is closely associated with creativity and fertility.[46] Amid the tenth millennium BCE, microlith-using West Africans migrated into and dwelt in Ounjougou alongside earlier residing West Africans in Ounjougou.[47] Among two existing cultural areas, earlier residing West Africans in Ounjougou were of a cultural area encompassing the Sahara region (e.g., Tenere, Niger/Chad; Air, Niger; Acacus, Libya/Algeria;[47] Tagalagal, Niger; Temet, Niger)[48] of Africa and microlith-using West Africans were of a cultural area encompassing the forest region of West Africa.[47]
Following the Ogolian period, between the late 10th millennium BCE and the early 9th millennium BCE, the creators of the Ounjougou pottery – the earliest pottery in Africa – migrated, along with their pottery, from Ounjougou, Mali into the Central Sahara.[13] The emergence and expansion of ceramics in the Sahara may be linked with the origin of both the Round Head and Kel Essuf rock art, which occupy rockshelters in the same regions (e.g., Djado, Acacus, Tadrart) as well as have a common resemblance (e.g., traits, shapes).[16] Whether or not Ounjougou ceramic culture spread as far as Bir Kiseiba, Egypt, which had pottery that resembled Ounjougou pottery, had implements used for grinding like at Ounjougou, and was followed by subsequent ceramic cultures (e.g., Wadi el Akhdar, Sarurab, Nabta Playa), remains to be determined.
quote: Between 11,000 BP and 10,000 BP, Yoruba people and Esan people grew in population size.[38]
As early as 11,000 years ago, Sub-Saharan West Africans, bearing macrohaplogroup L (e.g., L1b1a11, L1b1a6a, L1b1a8, L1b1a9a1, L2a1k, L3d1b1a), may have migrated through North Africa and into Europe, mostly into southern Europe (e.g., Iberia).[55]
10,000 BP – 7500 BP (8000 BCE – 5500 BCE)
quote:During the early period of the Holocene, in 9000 BP, Khoisan-related peoples admixed with the ancestors of the Igbo people, possibly in the western Sahara.[62][63]
7500 BP – 6500 BP (5500 BCE – 4500 BCE)
quote: As cattle pastoralism[64] (also known as the African cattle complex)[65] had endured in the Sahara since 7500 BP, amid the Pastoral period, Central Saharan hunters and herders may have lived together in a common area for a long period of time.[64] The Round Head painting tradition was brought to its formal conclusion as the Green Sahara underwent desertification.[20] Desertification may have resulted in migrations from the Central Saharan region, where the Round Head paintings are located, toward Lake Chad, the Niger Delta,[64] and the Nile Valley.[66] While some migrated south of the Sahara, other Central Saharan hunter-gatherers may have taken on the custom of pastoralism[20] (e.g., herding domesticated cattle and goats).[64] Meanwhile, as late as 2500 BP in the Central Sahara, some of the creators of the Round Head rock art may have continued to persist as hunters.[67]
Amid the Green Sahara, the mutation for sickle cell originated in the Sahara[37] or in the northwest forest region of western Central Africa (e.g., Cameroon)[37][68] by at least 7,300 years ago,[37][68] though possibly as early as 22,000 years ago.[69][68] The ancestral sickle cell haplotype to modern haplotypes (e.g., Cameroon/Central African Republic and Benin/Senegal haplotypes) may have first arose in the ancestors of modern West Africans, bearing haplogroups E1b1a1-L485 and E1b1a1-U175 or their ancestral haplogroup E1b1a1-M4732.[37] West Africans (e.g., Yoruba and Esan of Nigeria), bearing the Benin sickle cell haplotype, may have migrated through the northeastern region of Africa into the western region of Arabia.[37] West Africans (e.g., Mende of Sierra Leone), bearing the Senegal sickle cell haplotype,[70][37] may have migrated into Mauritania (77% modern rate of occurrence) and Senegal (100%); they may also have migrated across the Sahara, into North Africa, and from North Africa, into Southern Europe, Turkey, and a region near northern Iraq and southern Turkey.[70] Some may have migrated and introduced the Senegal and Benin sickle cell haplotypes into Basra, Iraq, where both occur equally.[70] West Africans, bearing the Benin sickle cell haplotype, may have migrated into the northern region of Iraq (69.5%), Jordan (80%), Lebanon (73%), Oman (52.1%), and Egypt (80.8%).[70]
Approximated to the Neolithic, there were "Negroid" skeletal remains found in West Africa.[71][72] At El Guettara, Mali, there were two individuals found.[71] At Karkarichinkat South, Mali, a skull was found.[72] At Ibalaghen, Mali, there was a cranium found,[71] which has been specifically dated between 7000 BP and 4000 BP.[73] At Tin Lalou, Mali, there was a cranium and mandible found,[71] which have been specifically dated between 7000 BP and 4000 BP.[73] At Tamaya Mellet, Niger, there were 12 individuals found,[71] which have been specifically dated between 7000 BP and 4000 BP.[73]
Preceded by assumed earlier sites in the Eastern Sahara, tumuli with megalithic monuments developed as early as 4700 BCE in the Saharan region of Niger.[74] These megalithic monuments in the Saharan region of Niger and the Eastern Sahara may have served as antecedents for the mastabas and pyramids of ancient Egypt.[74] During Predynastic Egypt, tumuli were present at various locations (e.g., Naqada, Helwan).[74] The prehistoric tradition of monarchic tumuli-building is shared by both the West African Sahel and the Middle Nile regions.[75] Ancient Egyptian pyramids of the early dynastic period and Meroitic Kush pyramids are recognized by Faraji (2022) as part of and derived from an earlier architectural “Sudanic-Sahelian” tradition of monarchic tumuli, which are characterized as “earthen pyramids” or “proto-pyramids.”[75] Faraji (2022) characterized Nobadia as the “last pharaonic culture of the Nile Valley” and described mound tumuli as being “the first architectural symbol of the sovereign’s return and reunification with the primordial mound upon his death.”[75] Faraji (2022) indicates that there may have been a cultural expectation of “postmortem resurrection” associated with tumuli in the funerary traditions of the West African Sahel (e.g., northern Ghana, northern Nigeria, Mali) and Nile Valley (e.g., Ballana, Qustul, Kerma, Kush).[75] Based on artifacts found in the tumuli from West Africa and Nubia, there may have been “a highly developed corporate ritual in which the family members of the deceased brought various items as offerings and tribute to the ancestors” buried in the tumuli and the tumuli may have “served as immense shrines of spiritual power for the populace to ritualize and remember their connection to the ancestral lineage as consecrated in the royal tomb.”[75] Between the 8th millennia BCE and the 4th millennia BCE, riverine farmers and savanna herders traversed the interconnected region of the Middle Nile Valley.[75] In the Saharan-Sahelian and Middle Nile Valley regions, dotted wavy line and wavy line pottery, which was produced between the 8th millennia BCE and the 4th millennia BCE (late Neolithic and early Bronze Age), preceded the emergence of monarchic tumuli; the spread of the pottery spanned from the savanna region to the eastern Saharan region, and from Mauritania to the Red Sea, which supports the conclusions of trade between the regions and their interconnectedness.[75] Wavy-line pottery developed six ceramic subvariants and dotted wavy-line pottery developed three ceramic subvariants; the locations for the earliest development of both 8th millennium BCE potteries were at Sagai and Sarurab in Sudan.[75] Wavy-line pottery spread throughout multiple locations (e.g., mostly in Central Nile; some in Hoggar Mountains, southern Algeria, Delibo Cave, Chad, Jebel Eghei, Chad, Tibesti, Chad, and Adrar Madet, Niger) in Africa.[75] Dotted wavy-line pottery spread throughout multiple locations (e.g., Ennedi Plateau, Niger Plateau, and Wadi Howar of Saharan-Sahelian region, interconnecting the regions of the Middle Nile River, Lake Chad, and Benue-Niger River) in Africa as well.[75] Both potteries also spread along a north-to-west regional axis (e.g., Wadi Howar, Ennedi Plateau, Chad, Jebel Uweinat, Gilf Kebir, Egypt) near the Saharan regions of Sudan and Egypt.[75] The tumuli from the kingdom of Kerma serve as a regional intermediary between the regions of the Nile River and the Niger River.[75]
The “Classical Sudanese” monarchic tumuli-building tradition, which lasted in Sudan (e.g., Kerma, Makuria, Meroe, Napata, Nobadia) until the early period of the 6th century CE as well as in West Africa and Central Africa until the 14th century CE, notably preceded the spread of Islam into the West African and Sahelian regions of Africa.[75] According to al-Bakrī, “the construction of tumuli and the accompanying rituals was a religious endeavor that emanated from the other elements” that he described, such as “sorcerers, sacred groves, idols, offerings to the dead, and the “tombs of their kings.””[75] Faraji (2022) indicated that the early dynastic period of ancient Egypt, Kerma of Kush, and the Nobadian culture of Ballana were similar to al-Bakrī’s descriptions of the Mande tumuli practices of ancient Ghana.[75] A characteristic of divine kingship sometimes includes monarchic funerary practices (e.g., Ancient Egyptian funerary practices).[75] In the lake region of Niger, two human burial sites included funerary rooms with graves that contain various bones (e.g., human, animal) and items (e.g., beads, ornaments, weapons).[75] In the Inland Niger Delta, 11th century CE and 15th century CE tumuli at El Oualedji and Koï Gourrey contained various bones (e.g., human, horse), human items (e.g., beads, bracelets, rings), and animal items (e.g., bells, harnesses, plaques).[75] Cultural similarities were also found with a Malinke king of Gambia, who along with his senior queen, human subjects within his kingdom, and his weapons, were buried in his home under a large mound the size of the house, as described by V. Fernandes.[75] Levtzion also acknowledged the cultural similarities between the monarchic tumuli-building traditions and practices (e.g., monumental Senegambian megaliths) of West Africa, such as Senegambia, Inland Niger Delta, and Mali, and the Nile Valley; these monarchic tumuli-building practices span the Sudanian savanna as manifestations of a trans-Sahelian common culture and heritage.[75] From the 5th millennium BCE to the 14th century CE, earthen and stone tumuli were developed between Senegambia and Chad.[75] Among 10,000 burial mounds in Senegambia, 3,000 megalithic burial mounds in Senegambia were constructed between 200 BCE and 100 CE, and 7,000 earthen burial mounds in Senegal were constructed in the 2nd millennium CE.[75] Between 1st century CE and 15th century CE, megalithic monuments without tumuli were constructed.[75] Megalithic and earthen Senegambian tumuli, which may have been constructed by the Wolof people (Serer people) or Sosse people (Mande peoples).[75] Sudanese tumuli (e.g., Kerma, C-Group), which date to the mid-3rd millennium BCE, share cultural similarities with Senegambian tumuli.[75] Between the 6th century CE and 14th century CE, stone tumuli circles, which at a single site usually encircle a burial site of half-meter that is covered by a burial mound, were constructed in Komaland; the precursors for this 3rd millennium BCE tumuli style of Komaland, Ghana and Senegambia are regarded by Faraji (2022) to be Kerma Kush and the A-Group culture of ancient Nubia.[75] While the stele-circled burial mounds of C-Group culture of Nubia are regarded as precursors for the megalithic burial mounds of Senegambia, Kerma tumuli are regarded as precursors for the stone tumuli circles of Komaland.[75] Based on a founding narrative of the Hausa people, Faraji (2022) concludes the possibility of the “pre-Islamic rulers of Hausaland” being a “dynasty of female monarchs reminiscent of the kandake of Meroitic Kush.”[75] The tumuli of Durbi Takusheyi, which have been dated between the 13th century CE and the 16th century CE, may have connection to tumuli from Ballana and Makuria.[75] Tumuli have also been found at Kissi, in Burkina Faso, and at Daima, in Nigeria.[75]
6500 BP – 5500 BP (4500 BCE – 3500 BCE)
quote: Following the northward expansion from coastal West Africa refugia, West African hunter-gatherers arrived and began dwelling at the Korounkorokale rockshelter, in Pays Mande, Mali, where they engaged in hunting and fishing.[4] By 4000 BCE, red ocher, used to paint pottery, jewelry, or pictographs, was developed by West African hunter-gatherers, which may have developed as a result of interaction with populations from lake areas to the northeast.[4] With the increased use of grinded stones, and thus, cultural development of utilizing vegetation for food, this resulted in a decreased use of stone projectiles, and thus, decreased hunting cultural practices.[4] By 700 CE, along with Niani having been established, Korounkorokale was embedded within the Kingdom of Kangaba.[4] West African hunter-gatherers and their ancient cultural traditions may have persisted shortly thereafter, as West African hunter-gatherers became fully acculturated, and Malinke metallurgy and pottery traditions became predominant.[4]
As a result of aridification of the Green Sahara, West Africans may have adapted by domesticating animals (e.g., Helmeted guineafowl) and plants (e.g., Pearl millet, African rice, Yams).[25] West Africa may have been a major regional cradle in Africa for the domestication of crops and animals.[25] Between 5889 BP and 3685 BP, West Africans domesticated pearl millet.[25] Between 5500 BP and 1300 BP, West Africans domesticated the Helmeted guineafowl.[25] Between 3200 BP and 2000 BP, West Africans domesticated African rice.[25]
During the Holocene, the Green Sahara underwent the process of becoming a desert and became the Sahara; this occurrence may have contributed to the start of domesticating field crops.[26] Akin to the Fertile Crescent of the Near East, the Niger River region of West Africa served as a cradle for field crop domestication and agriculture in Africa.[26] Yams, rice, sorghum, pearl millet, and cowpea are field crops that originate in Africa.[26] Domesticating of yams (e.g., D. praehensilis) likely began in the basin of the Niger River between eastern Ghana and western Nigeria (e.g., northern Benin).[26] Domesticating of rice (e.g., Oryza glaberrima) likely began in the Inner Niger Delta region of Mali.[26] Domesticating of pearl millet (e.g., Cenchrus americanus) likely began in the region of northern Mali and Mauritania.[26] Domesticating of cowpeas likely began in the region of northern Ghana.[26]
Before 5500 BP, Kordofanian hunters may have traversed from West Africa, along the Yellow Nile River (Wadi Howar), into the Nuba Hills.[14]
Source wikipedia.
For more info on Prehistoric West Africa go to Prehistoric West Africa wikipedia.
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posted
Would'nt folks like the tibbou/Toubou be a good representation?
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M
The best representatives of the ancients are groups like the Beja. This is not only an issue of skin color but of culture and the Beja have maintained many aspects of the ancient culture. Populations in Sudan and of course Upper Egypt, but many of them have been Arabized and no longer maintain old African traditions.
The Beja based on what though? When they likely aren't even the same as their most recent ancestors, the Blemmyes
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The best representatives of the ancients are groups like the Beja. This is not only an issue of skin color but of culture and the Beja have maintained many aspects of the ancient culture. Populations in Sudan and of course Upper Egypt, but many of them have been Arabized and no longer maintain old African traditions.
The Beja based on what though? When they likely aren't even the same as their most recent ancestors, the Blemmyes
How they look and the fact that they inhabit Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan and the Red Sea coasts. And they maintain the cultural traditions of the ancient Nile Valley. What do you think I was talking about?
How they look and the fact that they inhabit Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan and the Red Sea coasts. And they maintain the cultural traditions of the ancient Nile Valley. What do you think I was talking about?
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari
Would'nt folks like the tibbou/Toubou be a good representation?
I don't disagree and I do think that there were people who phenotypically resemble modern Bejas or Toubous.
Wether they were the majority or not is a different conversation.
But cultural traditions like what Doug? Elaborate... Many of these people claim to be arabs today, some are mixed with arabs, and practice arab culture.
Many of the people who remain ar Gurna are the "prototype" of what the vast majority of upper Egyptian would have looked like IMO
This is talking about Ancestralbrew from the link above in the chat section. Charming Aquarius quote-
quote: This guy is a manipulator and a lier I watched his over DNA analysis on north Africans in general. He basically said they were from different populations mixing then said they had genetic continuity🤔
I asked an AI chat bot about the skin color of ancient Egyptians. Here is what it answered
quote: The ancient Egyptians had a range of skin colors, ranging from light to dark. It is important to note that people from ancient Egypt belonged to diverse ethnic backgrounds, and their skin color varied depending on factors such as region, ancestry, and exposure to sunlight. Ancient Egyptian artwork often portrayed people with different skin tones, demonstrating the wide spectrum of appearances within their society.
I also asked it which now living people most resemble the ancient Egyptians in phenotype
quote:It is challenging to identify a specific group of people who resemble the ancient Egyptians most in phenotype, as physical features can vary widely within populations over time. However, there are some individuals and groups today who may share certain physical similarities with ancient Egyptians. Some researchers suggest that some modern-day Egyptians and other populations from North Africa may have genetic and phenotypic connections to their ancient ancestors. It's important to remember that human populations have undergone various migrations, interactions, and intermixing throughout history, making it difficult to pinpoint exact physical resemblances.
Wonder what sources such bot bases its answers on?
posted
Originally posted by DOug: he problem is that this paper is old and based on current DNA, not ancient DNA and the other problem is it presents Morocco as a proxy for "all of North Africa". This is the game played by the scholarly community taking one small part of North Africa and trying to act like it represents a region larger than the continental United States. This is deliberate misinformation intended exactly to reinforce the kinds of talking points seen from Antalas. But that is by design and intentional, as we know Europeans have for the longest time been claiming that North Africa is home to an ancient "white" racial group.
And you can see this deceptive data sampling in the following image where they sample populations along the coast of North Africa, then skip over the Sahara and Sahel to sample populations in West Africa. As if there are no and have not been Africans in the Sahara for tens of thousands of years. We have dissected this study many times here on this forum.
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More recently there has been ancient DNA sampled from North Africa and those papers indicate African ancestry in the Iberomaurisans, also in the area of Morocco. Such aDNA shows clearly a West African/Sahelian component of those ancient populations 15,000 years ago. What it also shows is that modeling North African population history without including ancient DNA from the Sahara and Sahel is blatant distortion of history, because we know the Saharan Wet Phase impacted these populations. And the only reason they do that is because again, these European scientists for a very long time have been trying to "claim" ancient North Africa as Eurasian going back 15 to 20,000 years.
Its part of the old selective sampling game ran for decades, that we have oft dissected. "North Africa" per credible mainstream geographers is not only the coastal strip, but includes large parts of the zones beyond, stretching into the main Sahara and incorporating parts of places like Chad, Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Sudan etc. Any realistic discussion of "North Africa" should include these zones as well which the geographers have been well justified in defining as they have.
Same sampling game in Egypt where samples are taken from the far north while downplaying or ignoring the dreaded "darker" historic south from whence the dynasties sprung. Note in the reference below its "establishment" Egyptologists that point this out not so-called "Afrocentrics" from "Black America", though they have noted similar patterns.
Same game being run with DNA or dental studies:
Others have spun a "down south" dodge where "Nubia" becomes the "true" "home of the bleks." This dodge too fails, both (a) in terms of native Egyptian diversity and (b) the fact that "Nubians" are in every part of ancient Egypt, from soldiers, to Pharaohs. They have been "up north" and everywhere else and even controlled a slice of today's southern Egypt for centuries.
It should also be noted that many of todays Arabized types who so vociferously insist that Kemet has "nothing to do" with Africa, are not only full of BS, but they themselves in modern Egypt are not necessarily representative of the ancients. In fact so say a several scholars, yes "establishment" scholars not so-called "Afrocentrics from America." The Copts for example are no "role models" of being "representative" of ancient Egyptians. Nor are today's Arabist types, nor even some Late Period types.
As for modern versus ancient "looks" there are plenty of ancient black Egyptians, rendering an assortment of modern Arabist claims dubious or irrelevant. Dark skin was never "foreign" to Kemet. Such people however are oft downplayed or ignored in today's media imagery.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan aka Enrique Cardova:
Same sampling game in Egypt where samples are taken from the far north while downplaying or ignoring the dreaded "darker" historic south from whence the dynasties sprung.
Shall be interesting to see the new study by the people who made the Abusir study, if they ever publish it
Urban et al 2021: Human mitochondrial hapologroups and ancient DNA preservation across Egyptian history
quote: Egypt represents an ideal location for genetic studies on population migration and admixture due to its geographic location and rich history. However, there are only a few reliable genetic studies on ancient Egyptian samples. In a previous study, we assessed the genetic history of a single site: Abusir el-Meleq from 1388 BCE to 426 CE. We now focus on widening the geographic scope to give a general overview of the population genetic background, focusing on mitochondrial haplogroups present among the whole Egyptian Nile River Valley. We collected 81 tooth, hair, bone, and soft tissue samples from 14 mummies and 17 skeletal remains. The samples span approximately 4000 years of Egyptian history and originate from six different excavation sites covering the whole length of the Egyptian Nile River Valley. NGS based ancient DNA 8 were applied to reconstruct 18 high-quality mitochondrial genomes from 10 different individuals. The determined mitochondrial haplogroups match the results from our Abusir el-Meleq study. Our results indicate very low rates of modern DNA contamination independent of the tissue type. Although authentic ancient DNA was recovered from different tissues, a reliable recovery was best achieved using teeth or petrous bone material. Moreover, the rate for successful ancient DNA retrieval between Egyptian mummies and skeletal remains did not differ significantly. Our study provides preliminary insights into population history across different regions and compares tissue-specific DNA preservation for mummies and skeletal remains from the Egyptian Nile River Valley.
don't you think this is kind of old, a 2008 article speculating B-M60 for the peopling of Egypt. No ancient remains bearing B-M60 have been found anywhere And combatively B-M60 for Nubians in the same 2008 Hassan is 7%, less than have of what was recorded for Copts
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posted
Some updates on dna and other talk. I was going to post this in the 3 interesting abstracts about Ancient Egypt, Soqotra, Pastoral Neolithic Sahara thread but i will do it here.
Genetic history of Egypt
quote:The genetic history of Egypt reflects its geographical location at the crossroads of several major biocultural areas: North Africa, the Sahara, the Middle East, the Mediterranean and sub-Saharan Africa.
Two haplogroups, E1b1b and J, that are carried by both ancient and modern Egyptians. The subclade E-M78 of E1b1b is suggested to have originated in Northeast Africa in the area of Egypt and Libya, and is more predominant in Egypt. These two haplogroups and their various subclades in general are distributed in high frequencies in the Middle East and North Africa.
Genetic studies on ancient Egyptians
quote: Egyptologist Barry Kemp has noted that DNA studies can only provide firm conclusions about the population of ancient Egypt if the sample results are of a significant number of individuals and represent a broad geographical and chronological range. According to historian William Stiebling and archaeologist Susan N. Helft, conflicting DNA analysis on recent genetic samples such as the Amarna royal mummies has led to a lack of consensus on the genetic makeup of the ancient Egyptians and their geographic origins.
quote: Egypt–Mesopotamia relations were the relations between the civilisations of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, in the Middle East. They seem to have developed from the 4th millennium BCE, starting in the Uruk period for Mesopotamia (circa 4000–3100 BCE) and the half a millennium younger Gerzean culture of Prehistoric Egypt (circa 3500–3200 BCE), and constituted a largely one way body of influences from Mesopotamia into Egypt.
Prior to a specific Mesopotamian influence there had already been a longstanding influence from West Asia into Egypt, North Africa and even into some parts of the Horn of Africa and the Sahel in the form of the Neolithic Revolution which from circa 9000 BCE diffused advanced agricultural practices and technology, gene-flow, certain animals and crops and the likely spread of Proto-Afroasiatic language into the region.
Mesopotamian influences can be seen in the visual arts of Egypt, in architecture, in technology, weaponry, in imported products, religious imagery, in agriculture and livestock, in genetic input, and also in the likely transfer of writing from Mesopotamia to Egypt and generated "deep-seated" parallels in the early stages of both cultures.
2017 DNA Genome Study
quote: A 2017 study of the mitochondrial DNA and Genome wide DNA composition of Egyptian mummies has shown a high level of affinity with the DNA of the populations of Western Asia and Anatolia. The study was made on mummies of Abusir el-Meleq, near El Fayum, which was inhabited from at least 3250 BCE until about 700 CE. A shared drift analysis of the ancient Egyptian mummies is highest with ancient populations from the Levant and Anatolia, and to a lesser extent modern populations from the Near East and the Levant. the Admixture analysis and PCA show the most affinity to ancient and modern middle eastern populations.
Overall the mummies studied were closer genetically to near easterners than the modern Egyptian or indeed nearby Libyan or Sudanese populations, who today have a greater proportion of genes (8% more) coming from sub-Saharan Africa which probably arrived after the Roman period.
The data suggest a very high level of genetic input from Western Asia since ancient times, probably going back to Prehistoric Egypt and as far back as the Neolithic Era: "Our data seem to indicate close admixture and affinity at a much earlier date, which is unsurprising given the long and complex connections between Egypt and the Middle East. These connections date back to Prehistory and occurred at a variety of scales, including overland and maritime commerce, diplomacy, colonisation, immigration, invasion and deportation".
The study stated that "our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the [native] population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level."
The study's authors cautioned that the mummies may be unrepresentative of the Ancient Egyptian population as a whole.
Gourdine, Anselin and Keita criticised the methodology of the Scheunemann et al. study and argued that the Sub-Saharan "genetic affinities" may be attributed to "early settlers" and "the relevant Sub-Saharan genetic markers" do not correspond with the geography of known trade routes".
In 2022, Danielle Candelora noted several limitations with the 2017 Scheunemann et al. study such as its “untested sampling methods, small sample size and problematic comparative data” which she argued had been misused to legitimise racist conceptions of Ancient Egypt with “scientific evidence”
Because the 2017 study only sampled from a single site at Abusir el-Meleq, Scheunemann et al.(2022) carried out a follow-up study by collecting samples from six different excavation sites along the entire length of the Nile Valley, spanning 4000 years of Egyptian history. 81 samples were collected from 17 mummies and 14 skeletal remains, and 18 high quality mitochondrial genomes were reconstructed from 10 individuals. The authors argued the analyzed mitochondrial genomes supported the results from the earlier study at Abusir el-Meleq.
In 2023, Christopher Ehret criticised the conclusions of the 2017 study which proposed the ancient Egyptians had a Levantine background based on insufficient sampling and a biased interpretation of the genetic data. Ehret argued this was reminiscent of earlier scholarship and also conflicted with existing archaeological, linguistic and biological anthropological evidence which determined the founding locales of Ancient Egypt to be the descendants of longtime populations in Northeastern Africa such as Nubia and the northern Horn of Africa. Ehret also criticised the study for asserting that there was “no sub-Saharan” component in the Egyptian population. Ehret cited other genetic evidence which had identified the Horn of Africa as a source of a genetic marker “M35 /215” Y-chromosome lineage for a significant population component which moved north from that region into Egypt and the Levant.
Wikipedia.
Ancient Egyptian race controversy
Position of modern scholarship
quote: William Stiebling and Susan Helft wrote in 2023 on the historical debate concerning the race and ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians in light of recent evidence. They argued that the physical appearances would have varied along a continuum from the Delta to the Nille’s source regions in the south. The authors specified that “some ancient Egyptians looked more Middle Eastern and others looked more Sudanese or Ethiopians of today, and some may even have looked like other groups in Africa”. The authors reached the view that “Egypt was a unique civilization with genetic and cultural ties linking it to other African cultures to its south and west and to Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures to its north”.
posted
Here is video from a youtuber i watched at times for a while now called kushroyalty2.0. He is east african(south sudanese american)and he talks about african history(more so the sudans,egypt,north africa and east africa) and dna etc.
Ancient Egyptian DNA | How Much Do Modern Egyptians Have?
quote:In this video I will be showing genetic evidence that modern Egyptians are indeed descendants of ancient Egyptian populations, using multiple samples throughout different periods of the Ancient Egyptian History, going back to the Middle Kingdom.
Here are some comments from inside and some of his replies.
quote:
@danfort6949 quote- The ancient Egyptians were predominately black people, but their origins were not in Africa, it was in the Anatolia/Levant region. This explains the genetic evidence. The flood story of the Bible really happened and this is where they lived before migrating to Africa. It's as simple as that. The modern Arab-Egyptians abandoned their culture after the 700-year Roman occupation and Muslim occupation for Christianity and Islam religions. There is minimal connection today to the ancients.
kushroyalty quote- the ppl of the levant, and Anatolia were not "black", especially not the ones that Egyptians derive some if their dna frm.
@kwarrior2895 quote- @RandomVidsforthought Christopher Erhet and Egyptian scholar says they are so did ancient Greeks and they also depicted themselves as a Blend of Nilo Saharan and Horners which they were middle easterners came to Egyptian around 3500 yrs ago mainly on the delta.
kushroyalty quote- They were some blacks who lived in Egypt, but they were most likely a minority or had their greatest influence in the southern regions, especially during the earlier times. Some modern Egyptians in Upper (Southern Egypt) are like 20% Sub Saharan! But at the same time, we have Middle and now apparently an Old Kingdom Sample and they are very much Eurasian Shifted. And we see that Modern Egyptians have a decent amount of ancestry from these ancient Egyptian Sample as shown in the video, so idk what these greeks were seeing, or maybe we need more DNA samples and study. But what we know for sure is that Modern Egyptians have most of their ancestry with Ancient Egypt.
posted
Saw a video with Kara Cooney a while ago, she said that if one wants to get a view of how ancient Egyptians looked like, one should Google "people of Luxor".
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posted
^Evidently she's wrong or what she is saying is outdated if the Ancient Egyptians were largely a Levantine/Arab like race...
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quote:Originally posted by Shebitku: ^Evidently she's wrong or what she is saying is outdated if the Ancient Egyptians were largely a Levantine/Arab like race...
Tutankhamun
How do you tell the difference?
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Ancient Egyptians, like the above bust of Tutankhamun as compared to modern Egyptians in Luxor
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quote: S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist, conducted a study on First Dynasty crania from the royal tombs in Abydos and noted the predominant pattern was "Southern" or a "tropical African variant" (although others were also observed) that had affinities with Kerma Kushites. The general results demonstrate greater affinity with Upper Nile Valley groups, but also suggest clear change from earlier craniometric trends. The gene flow and movement of northern officials to the important southern city may explain the findings.
Third Dynasty of Egypt
quote: Some scholars have proposed a southern origin for the Third Dynasty. Egyptologist, Flinders Petrie, believed the dynasty originated from Sudan based on the iconographic evidence whereas S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist, differed in his view and argued an origin in southern Egypt was “equally likely”. He cited a previous X-ray and anthropological study which suggested that the Third Dynasty nobles had “Nubian affinities”. The author also interpreted the portrait of Djoser as having little resemblance to “portraits of late dynastic Greek/Roman conquerors” and cited an iconographic review conducted by anthropologist, John Drake, as supporting evidence. In a separate article, Keita noted that the archaeological remains of the southern elites and their descendants which he discussed in reference to the Second Dynastic rulers and Djoser were eventually buried in the north and not at Abydos, Egypt.
Khufu/Fourth Dynasty of Egypt Monuments and statues Statues
quote: Deitrich Wildung has examined the representation of Nubian features in Egyptian iconography since the predynastic era and has argued that Khufu had these specific, Nubian features and this was represented in his statues.
Source wikipedia
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posted
Ancient Egyptian race controversy Position of modern scholarship
quote: William Stiebling and Susan Helft wrote in 2023 on the historical debate concerning the race and ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians in light of recent evidence. They argued that the physical appearances would have varied along a continuum from the Delta to the Nille’s source regions in the south. The authors specified that “some ancient Egyptians looked more Middle Eastern and others looked more Sudanese or Ethiopians of today, and some may even have looked like other groups in Africa”. The authors reached the view that “Egypt was a unique civilization with genetic and cultural ties linking it to other African cultures to its south and west and to Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures to its north”.
Ancient Egyptians, like the above bust of Tutankhamun as compared to modern Egyptians in Luxor
You can't tell the difference
But the fact that I or you can't tell the difference between a artistic rendition and certain people of the modern population, doesn't override the fact that the genetic data is showing that the ancient population was largely Eurasian with minimal SSA input, whilst the above have varying degrees of SSA ancestry.
What you're saying is no different from what King had posted earlier in this thread, or in another thread here.
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