Baladi in Arabic means 'of the country' or 'of the land' and is the name indigenous Egyptians use for themselves in contrast to the Arabs and other Afrangi (foreigners) who adopted the Egyptian national identity.
You can look in the thread I cited to see examples of Baladi. You have Bohari (northern Egyptian) Baladi and Sa'idi (southern Egyptian) Baladi. Some Baladi, especially the Bohari have intermarried with foreigners but most still tend to be endogamous (marry amongst themselves). So the original ancient phenotype tends to be best preserved amongst them. They also preserve ancient customs and traditions that Arabs and other Afrangi find strange or bizarre but are customs that may very well be dynastic even predynastic in origin.
Perhaps the biggest and most common mistake people make is to confuse Baladi for 'Copt'. Copt is more accurately used for the Christian denomination or church native to Egypt. Copts come in a range of phenotypes from white Greek looking types in Alexandria to Nubian looking ones in Aswan. Studies show that there is little genetic difference between Copts and Muslims of a given region. But Baladi regardless of religion don't marry outsiders and would even marry their own cousins before marrying Afrangi.
The Baladi even today remain an underclass in Egyptian society and suffer many of the same racist stigma and stereotypes black minorities in other countries suffer. For example Baladi are stereotyped as being less intelligent and more hot-headed and violent. And yes, they are looked down on or mocked for their dark (black) skin.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I wonder why it never occurs to those Egyptians who protest "Afrocentric blackwashing" to use the dark-skinned Baladi to represent how the ancient Egyptians really looked. It's almost always the lighter-skinned Afrangi types they cite as representing "the real Egyptians". Are those supposed Egyptian ethno-nationalists simply unaware that they share a country with dark-skinned indigenes, or do they simply write off the latter as all admixed with enslaved sub-Saharan Africans?
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^ That's a good question. From what I've read by some Egyptian authors (Mustafa Gadallah being of one them) some Afrangi seem to suffer from an identity crisis where they ignore their own colonial history and adopt the Eurocentric notion that they themselves are the direct descendants of the dynastic Egyptians whereas the dark-skinned inhabitants are descended from foreign slaves. Others like Zahi Hawass are not that dumb and acknowledge that the Baladi are the best representatives but that Baladi are not "negro" but North African "caucasoids". And still others admit that yeah Baladi are black regardless of whether they are "negro" or not while Afrangi are foreign. This is why you have the selective outrage over the Neflix black Ceopatra but they had no such outrage for the white-washed portrayals of other Egyptian kings or queens.
The situation is similar to Latin America where the elite are white Europeans but right below them are Mestizos who have better claim to the indigenous heritage but of course those that have the best claim are the unmixed Indios who live in the rural areas. The difference is that there is no racial stigma attached to the Indian identity as there is the Black identity in Africa. So white Euros can't get away with portraying Aztec royals the same way Turkish or Circassian Egyptians can portray pharaohs and queens.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Why that would be the Baladi Egyptians.
Baladi in Arabic means 'of the country' or 'of the land' and is the name indigenous Egyptians use for themselves in contrast to the Arabs and other Afrangi (foreigners) who adopted the Egyptian national identity.
You can look in the thread I cited to see examples of Baladi. You have Bohari (northern Egyptian) Baladi and Sa'idi (southern Egyptian) Baladi. Some Baladi, especially the Bohari have intermarried with foreigners but most still tend to be endogamous (marry amongst themselves). So the original ancient phenotype tends to be best preserved amongst them. They also preserve ancient customs and traditions that Arabs and other Afrangi find strange or bizarre but are customs that may very well be dynastic even predynastic in origin.
Perhaps the biggest and most common mistake people make is to confuse Baladi for 'Copt'. Copt is more accurately used for the Christian denomination or church native to Egypt. Copts come in a range of phenotypes from white Greek looking types in Alexandria to Nubian looking ones in Aswan. Studies show that there is little genetic difference between Copts and Muslims of a given region. But Baladi regardless of religion don't marry outsiders and would even marry their own cousins before marrying Afrangi.
The Baladi even today remain an underclass in Egyptian society and suffer many of the same racist stigma and stereotypes black minorities in other countries suffer. For example Baladi are stereotyped as being less intelligent and more hot-headed and violent. And yes, they are looked down on or mocked for their dark (black) skin.
Good roundup. The "critique" of "Afrocentric" blackwashing is too often a propaganda tactic to avoid acknowledging the African heritage of Egypt. Quick deployment of the propaganda meme quickly closes off the discussion and "spins" it as that dreaded "Afrocentric" thing. We have seen it for literally decades on ES. Its like how too often honest discussion of Arab performance in various wars against Israel is sidetracked and diverted- such as the claim bout how "American pilots" were actually flying for Israel, and yeah, that explains the ass-kicking.
The hypocrisy is seen too in how the part Sudanese president Anwar Sadat was treated by some modern Egyptians- i.e. the "black poodle." For many the modern Sadat was apparently "too" black, even though he was fulsome in his cultural identity with the Arab world.
The point you raise should be emphasized again and again, dark skin is part of NATIVE Egyptian diversity. It is not "foreign." This of course is precisely what various propaganda tactics seek to avoid acknowledging or to divert attention from.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^ Also the very term "black-washing" is nonsensical. You wash things WHITE not 'black'. The correct term is black-painting. Since you paint things black or other dark colors. This shows how reactionary some folks are they can't even use the proper phrase.
Egyptians have been white-washed in the media for ages and it's no problem but they black-paint 1 Cleopatra and there's outrage.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Maybe so called Black painting will be more common since we seen also examples of that in films and media lately, both of fantasy figures and some historical persons (like the Viking jarl Haakon in Vikings Valhalla who changed both sex and race). Best would perhaps to, at least when it concerns historical persons, find actors who have some similarity with the real historical person, phenotypically and maybe even ethnically.
Whitewashing is originally also a form of painting, so it is another use of the word washing then for example in "washing clothes".
quote: The first known use of the term is from 1591 in England. Whitewash is a cheap white paint or coating of chalked lime that was used to quickly give a uniform clean appearance to a wide variety of surfaces, such as the interior of a barn
In my country we call it "vitkalkning" or "kalkning" (chalking). In the 1700s it was rather popular to cover for example older church paintings with lime. It was good that they chalked over the paintings instead of removing them, since they were preserved under the chalk and can today be restored.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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You can look in the thread I cited to see examples of Baladi.
I definitely agree that the "Baladi" of Upper Egypt are the best representation of the ancients, but I also don't believe that many posters here believe that or that that is the census
quote:Copts come in a range of phenotypes from white Greek looking types in Alexandria to Nubian looking ones in Aswan.
Cairo Coptics
Aswan Copt
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
do they simply write off the latter as all admixed with enslaved sub-Saharan Africans?
Absolutely that is a narrative aided and abetted by the Abusir study that the "darker skinned" people are recent slaves or new comers..
For example, I was reading this article by a Copt on the Gurna population
The whole article is pretty much trying to tarnish their reputation as "grave robbers" and that they "were destroying the antiquities of Ancient Egypt"...
They then go onto insist that since (Stevanovitch,2004) shows that they have a "ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population" that this "dispels then the myth propagated by the Gurnawis that they are descendants of the Ancient Egyptians."
People from Gurna
In my opinion they don't look different from the other "Baladis", unless I'm missing something.
A lot of what I see online is the delta Copts pushing that AE identity belongs to Copts and Copts alone, the more Arabized/Muslims pushing that "Egyptians are Egyptians" and that the darker skinned people are recent slaves and of course you don't hear the narrative of the "Baladi" as they're lower class citizens
Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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in films and media lately, both of fantasy figures and some historical persons (like the Viking jarl Haakon in Vikings Valhalla who changed both sex and race).
Please go and vent your frustrations about the "blackwashing" of these fictional/historical figures in the Cleopatra thread
Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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FWIW, finding out that there were still plenty of darker-skinned people in Egypt today was one of the factors that got me on board with African AE in the first place. Even people who don’t mean to be racist towards Black people often have this stereotyped image of Egyptians and other North Africans as all looking like Rami Malek or Sofia Boutella, so they have a hard time imagining ancient inhabitants of the region as looking any different. They don’t realize that there exist many people in these countries who could pass for Black without necessarily being recent migrants from south of the Sahara.
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Its not just Cleopatra, people are upset anytime a black character is made in any popular series. The black stormtrooper from Star Wars,even Rue from Hunger games all recieved backlash.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Also the very term "black-washing" is nonsensical. You wash things WHITE not 'black'. The correct term is black-painting. Since you paint things black or other dark colors. This shows how reactionary some folks are they can't even use the proper phrase.
Egyptians have been white-washed in the media for ages and it's no problem but they black-paint 1 Cleopatra and there's outrage.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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in films and media lately, both of fantasy figures and some historical persons (like the Viking jarl Haakon in Vikings Valhalla who changed both sex and race).
Please go and vent your frustrations about the "blackwashing" of these fictional/historical figures in the Cleopatra thread
No one is frustrated. You are just oversensitive. The subject was mentioned earlier in the thread so I just commented on it.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Its not just Cleopatra, people are upset anytime a black character is made in any popular series. The black stormtrooper from Star Wars,even Rue from Hunger games all recieved backlash.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Also the very term "black-washing" is nonsensical. You wash things WHITE not 'black'. The correct term is black-painting. Since you paint things black or other dark colors. This shows how reactionary some folks are they can't even use the proper phrase.
Egyptians have been white-washed in the media for ages and it's no problem but they black-paint 1 Cleopatra and there's outrage.
Sigh that was what I was going to speak on. No matter what television show is on TV. Theres people who have a problem with Black characters inside the show.
It seems to them that its there sick fantasies to have shows without Black Lead characters. It seems that Blacks should understand the implication. When a Character is kissing a Frog, that implies beastiality no matter the role Blacks should not go for it
shameful display of a Black Character inside a Film
Black People should create there own films and stop trying to beg for roles from European films. Remember what it means with the princess and the frog. Its not worth it.
as for the Egyptians I would say that the Aswan Egyptians are closest to the Ancient Egyptians and look the part with Rich skinned Blacks among them.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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It seems that Blacks should understand the implication. When a Character is kissing a Frog, that implies beastiality no matter the role Blacks should not go for it
Stay on topic
quote:Black People should create there own films and stop trying to beg for roles from European films.
I agree
quote:as for the Egyptians I would say that the Aswan Egyptians are closest to the Ancient Egyptians and look the part with Rich skinned Blacks among them
Based on what? Their skin colour alone?
Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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It seems that Blacks should understand the implication. When a Character is kissing a Frog, that implies beastiality no matter the role Blacks should not go for it
Stay on topic
quote:Black People should create there own films and stop trying to beg for roles from European films.
I agree
quote:as for the Egyptians I would say that the Aswan Egyptians are closest to the Ancient Egyptians and look the part with Rich skinned Blacks among them
Based on what? Their skin colour alone?
Based on there skin color alone. Black is something best left untampered with when its based on skin color
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: Black People should create there own films and stop trying to beg for roles from European films.
Let me say this about this. This type defeatist talk is not getting anywhere because if it did it would have happen by now.
So why stop at film,and do it for everything like hospitals,the military,police,teaching etc..
It's not a either or sitution and blacks in western countries are creating films under black or white or mostly white control film industries.
Blacks are citizens of western countries,pay taxes,work in those top mainstream movies industries,contribute to it etc..and most are not going anywhere else and they belong too and do have some type of ownership,stakes etc.. to THOSE things as well just like anybody else. Those industries and countries belong to them just like anybody else if they were born there.
It's like trying to say don't ride the mainstream trains and buses to work because they are control mostly by whites (forgetting there are black managers and other types of black workers in there too like in the mainstream film industries and other ones i mention above). Sometimes they become the top owner or boss.
So it will be like trying to say don't vote because that will not happen.
Fighting to improve for better roles is happening and has happen and needs to continue to happen and at the same time still create black own or mostly black own film industries and other ones and could still be done and has been happen.
Same thing for the race swapping talk. It's going to happen even if it slows down but original poc characters still needs to be created and has happen.
Original poc characters are still being created,just needs to be push more on average,treated right or treated right as much as possible(because not even mainstream white characters are treated right all the time,just ask superman fans for example) and that's happening and has happen more and more over time. It's not a either or sitution as well and improvements have happen and will go on happening.
Asian and Black representation grew in film and television, study finds
quote: Less than 2% of all movies released last year centered on Asian stories, and TV series with at least one Asian series regular increased by 2%, according to the report.
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The idea that black phenotype is due to "Sub-Saharan" influence is laughable considering that black skin was identified in Egyptians by non-African folks like the Greeks, Israelites, Assyrians etc. Not to mention that Egyptians portray themselves in their own artwork as very dark. We even have genetic evidence showing light skin to be alien to North Africa.
The Baladi know who they are and know they are the true heirs to their ancient ancestors' legacy.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^Exactly and dark skinned or not those populations are genetically and morphologically very different from most inhabitants of SSA. This is why Afro-Americans claiming ancient Egypt is complete nonsense.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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I mean would'nt these peoplebe just part of the African diversity, would'nt their "Dark/Black" skin be just as valid as a representation of African populations esp. if they're distant genetically to SSA?
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: I mean would'nt these peoplebe just part of the African diversity, would'nt their "Dark/Black" skin be just as valid as a representation of African populations esp. if they're distant genetically to SSA?
Djehuti does not support this possibility because it would prevent Sub-Saharan populations, especially their diaspora, from appropriating the history and cultures of North Africa. It's basically racism towards North Africans because they don't fit well enough his definition of "black" and overall they aren't close enough to SSAs whether genetically or morphologically.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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^^^Dj just said the black skin in NA has nothing to do with SSA, so I feel like you're strawmanning his position.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Another elephant in the room that many try to ignore is why is it that these same black-looking Baladi preserve customs and traditions that are strikingly akin to those of pharaonic Egyptians??! Ironically it is those same customs that Afrangi Egyptians like Arabs call "strange" and "backwards". The few ethnologists who have studied Baladi culture have noted that such customs are also strikingly similar to those of Sub-Sahara and question how much of it is due to Sub-Saharan influence and how much of it is pharaonic. But perhaps the answer is that Pharaonic culture itself is linked to Sub-Sahara.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/03/28/stories/05281349.htm Islam has perhaps not penetrated into the consciousness of the Upper Egyptians as deeply as it has in other parts of the world because it is still in some ways considered an alien import. The people in these parts are most definitely African in their physiognomy and culture. Traces of other races are noticeable in physical features and Arabic is, of course, the sole spoken language. But for all that the pride in being African is unmistakable. At a factory producing alabaster figurines for sale to tourists a Saidi (as the denizens of Upper Egypt are called) points to three phallic figures of different sizes. "This is Egyptian", he says pointing to the largest one and then at the middle-sized one, "that is Nubian". (The Nubians are the African people who live in the stretch between the southern Egyptian town of Aswan and Sudan). Then pointing to the smallest- sized he says with a smirk, "And that is Arab". Besides being proud of their Africanness, the people of Upper Egypt also appear to be stubbornly rural. Like the peasantry in large parts of India these people seem to be in deliberate resistance to sophistication and even to look on some of the mores of modern life as being beneath their dignity. They look well-fed but even those farmers who seem more prosperous than their brethren seem to look on modern conveniences as something not really relevant to their lives. TV antennae sprout from every house-top (and as always, Mr. Amitabh Bachhan is a topic of conversation).
Min statue
West African ithyphallic figure
The practice of magic/sorcery. Even today though Islamic shariah prohibits saher (sorcery) many Arab and Afrangi Egyptians will turn to Baladi to seek out magical remedies like love spells or fertility amulets. You also have malicious magic where they make a wax sculpture of somebody and melt or make clay figurines with people's name on it and break it, or if an unwanted guest arrives a clay pot is broken after they leave to ensure they never come back.
The practice of tahtib or stick fighting is very ancient and similar to other African peoples. The practice has recently been popularized to become a national sport in Egypt.
There is also the voodoo-like ritual of Zar, whereby a person, usually a young woman, is possessed by a spirit. This ritual is often mistaken to be an exorcism of an evil spirit when in actuality it is an adoration ritual of a guardian spirit whereby the ritual is meant to reconcile the woman to her guardian spirit. Once reconciled, the spirit will bring blessings on the woman and her family. The term 'zar' comes from Ethiopia and is more accurately used to describe the type of ritual that occurs there but many believe that zar was introduced to Egypt by slaves from Ethiopia. The problem with that theory is that specific rites in Egyptian zar differ from those of Sudan or Ethiopia.
Similar practices are also found in other parts of Africa like West African Vodun, Ifa, etc.
Other practices...
quote:Originally posted by ausar: Sorry I have been busy for the last few days. Anyway, what Djehuti wrote is what folk customs still persist in rural areas of Egypt.
Another one that Djehuti left out is el Sebeou[the seven] to where seven days after a child is born a type of celebration happens. The infant is place on a sieve and usually the mother steps over the child seven times.
The funerary traditions is usually 40 days of mourning and within the forty days people visit the grave and give offering to the poor in the name of the deceased. The occurrence is repeated every religious festival and on the date the person died. The 40 days is connected back to how many days it usually took to mummify the dead.
In the beleifs of rural Egyptians usually everybody is born with a qarina,shadow and akht or akhi. Usually an akhi for females and a akht for males. The Qarin is like the exact double of the person. Many rural Egyptians also believe in a underworld filled with afreet usually associated with departed souls.
The Moulid or Saints birthdays were probably first started around the Fatimid and some have ancient Egyptian origins and some are fairly new festivals. The rural Egyptians took these festivals and modified them with their own traditions.
Other survivals are mostly attached to females trying to prevent barreness and ensure fertility. Often rural women will go to temples,saint shrines or rub themselves with ancient objects to ensure fertility...
There are also marriage practices like uxorilocal residence in which a groom moves into the home of his bride or a residence near the bride's parents. And there are peculiar wedding customs like the groom kneeling before his bride seated in a bed. More recently in Luxor police cited a group of men for 'indecent exposure' because they were caught dancing shirtless in the street holding sticks as part of a wedding celebration.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^Dj just said the black skin in NA has nothing to do with SSA, so I feel like you're strawmanning his position.
It's been years you're reading his post why do you pretend you do not see his point ? He has made numerous unsubstantiated assertions regarding modern North Africans, and you've seen them so stop the hypocrisy pls.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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^^^Honestly I think you just don't like him and interpret his posts different....What does he say...that light skin was brought to NA? Is he wrong? I don't know much about the origin of light skin in NA, I'd assume the Coastal pupulations could've evolved light skin...??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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As always, Djehuti is attempting to establish connections where none exist.
Stick fighting martial arts are not limited to Africa alone. Examples include the Portuguese martial art "Jogo do Pau," the Filipino martial art "Arnis," the French martial art "Canne de combat," various forms of stick fighting within the Indian art of Kalaripayattu, etc
(interestingly, the ancient Canarians had their own stick fighting martial art known today as "juego del palo.")
Furthermore, it's worth noting that ityphallic figures are not exclusive to Africa either. Numerous examples can be found in ancient Greece, Italy, and even Mesopotamia. It's amusing that Djehuti utilizes a Central African example from the 19th century from a tribe that had no connection to Egypt.
It's ironic how he's so quick to highlight those enduring customs, but when it comes to recognizing them among the Berbers, he conveniently dismisses them because those people aren't black enough. What's even more funny is that you'll probably find more of those ancient customs among Berbers than egyptians.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: ^^^Honestly I think you just don't like him and interpret his posts different....What does he say...that light skin was brought to NA? Is he wrong? I don't know much about the origin of light skin in NA, I'd assume the Coastal pupulations could've evolved light skin...??
He is attempting to portray the Ancient Egyptians as genetically or physically more closely related to modern sub-Saharans rather than modern Egyptians and Middle Easterners. Additionally, he is exaggerating cultural similarities and even suggesting that "blacks" were more prevalent among the Berbers in the past, while claiming that a significant majority of Egyptians are of an Ottoman-Crusader-Arab mix ("ifrangi" XD), which is quite amusing.
However, it is important to note that he provides absolutely no evidence to support his arguments. There is literally zero scholarly research or documented sources to back up his claims.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Typical troll behavior is not addressing the actual topic of a thread but instead rehashing topics from other threads. This thread is about who in modern day Egypt resembles the ancient Egyptians the most. If you want to discuss 'how light skin came about in North Africa' there is a thread that already exists here!
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: Exactly and dark skinned or not those populations are genetically and morphologically very different from most inhabitants of SSA. This is why Afro-Americans claiming ancient Egypt is complete nonsense.
First off, I thought it was made clear to you before that Sub-Saharan Africa is genetically the most diverse region in the planet. There are South Africans that are genetically and morphologically distinct from say West Africans. That does not take away from the FACT that they are ALL *African* including North Africans like Egyptians and Nubians. So your point is null
Second, Afro-Americans at least all the ones I know of don't claim ancient Egypt as a part of their own heritage per say but that Egypt is simply an African civilization not a 'Eurasian' one as I've just provided some cultural examples of that!
quote:He is attempting to portray the Ancient Egyptians as genetically or physically more closely related to modern sub-Saharans rather than modern Egyptians and Middle Easterners...
Hey, liar I've been pointing out this entire time that those physically closest to ancient Egyptians are Baladi!! What are Baladi if not modern Egyptians?!! LOL
quote:Additionally, he is exaggerating cultural similarities and even suggesting that "blacks" were more prevalent among the Berbers in the past, while claiming that a significant majority of Egyptians are of an Ottoman-Crusader-Arab mix ("ifrangi" XD), which is quite amusing.
Who's exaggerating, numbskull?!! I just pointed out very strong cultural affinities. What affinities have you shown that are "Eurasian"?! Also, I didn't even mention Berbers!! And where did I claim that a "significant majority" are Afrangi??! All you've done is lie by making silly straw dolls that I've never even said!
How about you be a man for once in your life and actually make honest points for your argument?!
quote:However, it is important to note that he provides absolutely no evidence to support his arguments. There is literally zero scholarly research or documented sources to back up his claims.
Nope! What's really important to note is that you LIE about what my actual arguments are! All you do is lie and make false claims about me and then "debunk" your own fabrications.
That is not argumentation. That is lunacy. And until you become honest there is no point in arguing with your bad-faith, dishonest, lying self.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: First off, I thought it was made clear to you before that Sub-Saharan Africa is genetically the most diverse region in the planet. There are South Africans that are genetically and morphologically distinct from say West Africans. That does not take away from the FACT that they are ALL *African* including North Africans like Egyptians and Nubians. So your point is null
Regardless of their diversity, my previous statement remains unchallenged. Numerous studies have consistently demonstrated that the majority of SSAs, regardless of their geographical location, exhibit significant morphological and genetic differences from the Ancient Egyptians.
Using the term "All African" holds no significant meaning in this context. To illustrate, the fact that both Indians and Japanese are considered Asians does not provide any insight into their genetics, morphology, or culture. Africa, on the other hand, is not only genetically diverse but also culturally diverse, and it is important to acknowledge and accept this reality. Stop having this monolithic vision of Africa where all africans are closely related and look somewhat similar to each other.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Second, Afro-Americans at least all the ones I know of don't claim ancient Egypt as a part of their own heritage per say but that Egypt is simply an African civilization not a 'Eurasian' one as I've just provided some cultural examples of that!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA after that it's me the dishonest Hypocrite XD
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Hey, liar I've been pointing out this entire time that those physically closest to ancient Egyptians are Baladi!! What are Baladi if not modern Egyptians?!! LOL
I literally posted pictures of those baladi and you dismissed them because they looked too "arab" according to you.
Remember them ? :
Additionally, are you implying that Egyptians, from the northern to the southern regions, were completely homogeneous during that time period, with no variations or differences present ?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Who's exaggerating, numbskull?!! I just pointed out very strong cultural affinities. What affinities have you shown that are "Eurasian"?! Also, I didn't even mention Berbers!! And where did I claim that a "significant majority" are Afrangi??! All you've done is lie by making silly straw dolls that I've never even said!
There are no strong cultural affinities except with lower nubia and you also fail to point out proper egyptian influence further south. You seem to suggest that these cultural influences only flow in one direction, while disregarding any mention of Middle Eastern influences.
Are you not asserting that the majority of Egyptians have foreign ancestry ? I am confused as to why you referred to them as "Afrangi" when I provided crowd pictures clearly depicting them.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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I feel like yall agree way more than you disagree you both just don't like each other
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Furthermore, it's worth noting that ityphallic figures are not exclusive to Africa either. Numerous examples can be found in ancient Greece, Italy, and even Mesopotamia.
Another example is the ancient Norse god of fertility, Frey
Already in the bronze age these kind of figures were common, especially in rock art
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
Here is a famous painting by the English artist Frederick Goodall (1822-1904). The painting is from 1870 and is a romanticised vision of ancient Egypt but with a modern Egyptian girl as a model.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Another example is the ancient Norse god of fertility, Frey
Already in the bronze age these kind of figures were common, especially in rock art
I think you're onto something Archeopteryx
quote:Gaedel Glass, Sonf of Nel and Scota (the pharaoh's daughter), and his people flee Egypt...
The marriage of Scota, the daughter of pharaoh, with a predecessor of the Scots: ehich evidently convinces us that there had been a commerce and alliance of a very ancient date.
Joseph Lennon, Irish Orientalism: A Literary and Intellectual History
quote:(Mil) arrived in Egypt, where he got land from the Pharaoh and was again made an army commander. His first wife having died in Scythia, he remarmied - this time the bride was Scota, daughter of the Pharaoh.Remembering that the druid Caicher had prophesied that his people would settle in Ireland, he left Egypt after some time and set sail westwards.He had by this time no less than thirty-two sons. - Eibhear, Amhairghin Glingheal, Ir, Colptha, Erannan, and Eireamhdéin - were the offspring of Scota.
Dáithí Ó hÓgáin,Myth, Legend & Romance: An encyclopaedia of the Irish folk tradition
posted
There are indications of certain contacts between the Mediterranean world (including Egypt) and Northern parts of Europe during the Bronze age. Thus there can be seen common motifs on rock art between Sweden and Italy, there has been Egyptian glass pearls found in Danish tombs, and Baltic amber in Egypt. Some of the copper in Nordic bronzes are also of Mediterranean origin (Cyprus, Sardinia).
But the legend of Scota must be taken with a grain of salt even if it is fascinating
quote: In medieval Irish and Scottish legend, Scota or Scotia is the daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh and ancestor of the Gaels. She is said to be the origin of their Latin name Scoti, but historians say she (and her alleged ancestors and spouses) was purely mythological and was created to explain the name and to fit the Gaels into a historical narrative
posted
^ Why yes, As i've just stated, It's totally logical.
Lets scrap the pre dynastic Saharan/Nile valley culturesand scholarship indicating a more southernly origin, and focus our attention on Northern European Scandinavian's.
Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: There are indications of certain contacts between the Mediterranean world (including Egypt) and Northern parts of Europe during the Bronze age. Thus there can be seen common motifs on rock art between Sweden and Italy, there has been Egyptian glass pearls found in Danish tombs, and Baltic amber in Egypt. Some of the copper in Nordic bronzes are also of Mediterranean origin (Cyprus, Sardinia).
But the legend of Scota must be taken with a grain of salt even if it is fascinating
quote: In medieval Irish and Scottish legend, Scota or Scotia is the daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh and ancestor of the Gaels. She is said to be the origin of their Latin name Scoti, but historians say she (and her alleged ancestors and spouses) was purely mythological and was created to explain the name and to fit the Gaels into a historical narrative
posted
^^ So you think that all Ancient Egyptians, through all times, looked exactly like those hieroglyphs? No variation over time, or geographically?
Here is a map from a lecture by Nina Jablonski illustrating a gradual cline of skin colors in Ancient Egypt
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: ^^ So you think that all Ancient Egyptians, through all times, looked exactly like those hieroglyphs? No variation over time, or geographically?
Here is a map from a lecture by Nina Jablonski illustrating a gradual cline of skin colors in Ancient Egypt
Ancient Egypt is Black African case closed.
What nina jablonski depicts is moot. The ancient Egyptians are Black African
The Face that ends the debate on egypt and shows that Ancient Egypt was Black African Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there?
I am of the opinion that no one can be an expert of Ancient Egypt without having been in Egypt and studied some of its monuments and art in person, or seen the people there.
I am no expert of ancient Egypt, but it seems there has been a certain variation among its people, at least as it is depicted in art.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there?
I am of the opinion that no one can be an expert of Ancient Egypt without having been in Egypt and studied some of its monuments and art in person, or seen the people there.
I am no expert of ancient Egypt, but it seems there has been a certain variation among its people, at least as it is depicted in art.
No Matter the claimed variation, The Ancient Egyptians remain the same Black African:
Ancient Egypt hieroglyph for Face is Black African
One picture shutdown the race debacle and shows Ancient Egypt as Black African.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there?
Explain to me why I should believe in your interpretations more than the interpretations of a man like Zahi hawass who has 50 years of experience of Egyptian archaeology and who is an Egyptian himself?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there?
Explain to me why I should believe in your interpretations more than the interpretations of a man like Zahi hawass who has 50 years of experience of Egyptian archaeology and who is an Egyptian himself?
Simple.
ITS THE ANCIENT EGYPTIAN HIEROGLPH.
it shows the stubbornness of a deceitful man to deny the obvious.
Ancient Egypt is Black African.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there?
Explain to me why I should believe in your interpretations more than the interpretations of a man like Zahi hawass who has 50 years of experience of Egyptian archaeology and who is an Egyptian himself?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
Can you explain where that hieroglyph were created, and when? And why should that hieroglyph be representative to ALL Egyptians during 3000 years?
How does it prove that all Egyptians looked the same during 3000 years?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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