Hannah Marshall: "This is the picture of my grandfather and his family. It shows my grandfather, his mother and three brothers. The picture was taken in Basra in 1918. My grandfather is the boy standing at the back of the picture, with the black jacket and tie."
My grandfather was an Iraqi Jew, who ended up living in a North Wales seaside town. I never met him, but I've always been fascinated by this side of the family. A couple of years ago, I decided to find out more. I got in touch with distant cousins, and cousins of cousins, and friends of cousins - everyone in the Iraqi-Jewish community is linked to everyone else, somehow. The stories they shared were shocking, and revealed a deep-rooted history.
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posted
For instance, Iraqi Jews are said to be descended from those exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.
Most of those founding narratives do not have strong historical support. Dr. Lawrence H. Schiffman, professor of Hebrew and Judaic studies at New York University, said the new genetic data could well explain how certain far-flung Jewish communities were formed.
quote: In a recent book, ''The Beginnings of Jewishness,'' Dr. Cohen argued that far-flung Jewish communities had adopted the rabbinic teaching of the matrilineal descent of Jewishness soon after the Islamic conquests in the seventh, eight and ninth centuries A.D.
One part of the Goldstein team's analysis, that matrilineal descent of Jewishness was practiced at or soon after the founding of each community, could fit in with this conclusion, Dr. Cohen said, if the communities were founded around this time.
/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]If the founding mothers of most Jewish communities were local, that could explain why Jews in each country tend to resemble their host community physically while the origins of their Jewish founding fathers may explain the aspects the communities have in common, Dr. Cohen said.
quote:Some scholars suspected that Jewish communities had through intermarriage or conversion become little different from their host populations. Many say they believe that even if Jews are a group definable in ethnic, as opposed to cultural or religious terms, it is either impossible or unwise to define an ethnic group genetically.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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The "The Book of Clarence" takes place 33 AD in Jerusalem. Are there any ancient studies that analyzed DNA close to that time in Israel of any of the neighboring countries?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The "The Book of Clarence" takes place 33 AD in Jerusalem. Are there any ancient studies that analyzed DNA close to that time in Israel of any of the neighboring countries?
Good question
This is Avi Shalim, Iraqi Arab Jew
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The "The Book of Clarence" takes place 33 AD in Jerusalem. Are there any ancient studies that analyzed DNA close to that time in Israel of any of the neighboring countries?
According to our good jewish brother Tukuler
And from my own research I can concur.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The "The Book of Clarence" takes place 33 AD in Jerusalem. Are there any ancient studies that analyzed DNA close to that time in Israel of any of the neighboring countries?
Yes there is the study of the Tomb of the Shroud from the first century AD. It is located in Jerusalem. In it was found skeletons, textile fragments and also human hair. The skeletons mtDNA was analyzed.
quote: The Tomb of the Shroud is a first-century C.E. tomb discovered in Akeldama, Jerusalem, Israel that had been illegally entered and looted. The investigation of this tomb by an interdisciplinary team of researchers began in 2000. More than twenty stone ossuaries for collecting human bones were found, along with textiles from a burial shroud, hair and skeletal remains. The research presented here focuses on genetic analysis of the bioarchaeological remains from the tomb using mitochondrial DNA to examine familial relationships of the individuals within the tomb and molecular screening for the presence of disease. There are three mitochondrial haplotypes shared between a number of the remains analyzed suggesting a possible family tomb.
Exactly but that Elijah compares this to historical revisionism...
Moreover ethiopians aren't into those racial debates they can see beyond skin color :
I remember watching a documentary about christian ethiopians then you had the comment section filled with afro-americans complaining that ethiopians had white skinned icons.
You are fooling no one White nationalist, White supremacists and anyone period who suffer from the chronic affliction and obsession of anti-Blackness such as yourself hate to see Blacks and and none Whites in general portraying biblical icons as anything other than White the whiter the better.
I am sure that you know that Ethiopians have a tradition of depicting biblical icons as Black like themselves. You are also aware that Ethiopians and any other Blacks depicting Jesus and his mother in the likeness of people that look like they are from Norway like in the pic above benefits White nationalism and not the Ethiopians, and stroke your anti Blackness and anti African obsession which is your sole purpose on Egyptsearch
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: As I mentioned earlier, and as Archeo pointed out, this is not related to "Afrocentrism" as it is understood in certain groups in the United States. Naturally, people tend to depict historical figures in a way that resembles their own folks, just like many other cultures do. I'm fairly certain that if I were to ask a random Christian Ethiopian whether Jesus was "black" or resembled Ethiopians, their answer would likely be "no," despite the Ethiopian depictions of him. In contrast, I'm less certain about the perspectives of Afro-Americans. Let's be real.
Uh... Yea. And wouldn't this be the same exact thing for Black Americans? But lets see:
1. Abyssinians renamed their country and themselves "Ethiopian" which is a Greek word which was NOT originally meant for them but people in the area of Sudan who they had nothing to do with.
2. Believes the Lost Ark is found in Ethiopia.
3. Depictions of Black Jesus(again... How the hell is this different from Black Americans???).
4. Africanizing Queen Sheba.
But yet no smoke for your Afro-Asiatic brothers. Who are the original "Afrocentrics" if we being real.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Yea I'm really getting tired of Black Americans being scapegoated as Afrocentrics when other Black groups played large parts in the ideology also from Caribbeans, West Africans, etc. The most prominent ones were a Senegalese and Guyanese for crying out loud. And like I said if we really wanna be real the original "Afrocentrics" were Ethio-Semitics but that's another story...
FWIW, I would have thought most Black African and Afro-Diasporan people around the world, not just African-Americans, supported so-called "Afrocentrism" at least when it came to whether ancient North Africans were Black. I don't know if most of them feel the same about the Israelites though. Sure, pretty much every Christianized population around the world has tended to depict Biblical protagonists in their own image, but it doesn't necessarily follow that those artistic depictions are all meant to represent how the artists think the ancient Israelites actually looked.
quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Yea I'm really getting tired of Black Americans being scapegoated as Afrocentrics when other Black groups played large parts in the ideology also from Caribbeans, West Africans, etc. The most prominent ones were a Senegalese and Guyanese for crying out loud. And like I said if we really wanna be real the original "Afrocentrics" were Ethio-Semitics but that's another story...
FWIW, I would have thought most Black African and Afro-Diasporan people around the world, not just African-Americans, supported so-called "Afrocentrism" at least when it came to whether ancient North Africans were Black. I don't know if most of them feel the same about the Israelites though. Sure, pretty much every Christianized population around the world has tended to depict Biblical protagonists in their own image, but it doesn't necessarily follow that those artistic depictions are all meant to represent how the artists think the ancient Israelites actually looked.
Just watched Dr. Kevin Burrell's video on the Hebrew Israelites and he claims that the Igbo claims of " jewishness" go back to the 12th century. I am not sure how true that is but I find it interesting.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Uh... Yea. And wouldn't this be the same exact thing for Black Americans? But lets see:
1. Abyssinians renamed their country and themselves "Ethiopian" which is a Greek word which was NOT originally meant for them but people in the area of Sudan who they had nothing to do with.
2. Believes the Lost Ark is found in Ethiopia.
3. Depictions of Black Jesus(again... How the hell is this different from Black Americans???).
4. Africanizing Queen Sheba.
But yet no smoke for your Afro-Asiatic brothers. Who are the original "Afrocentrics" if we being real.
As I mentioned before, the situation is quite different when comparing Ethiopians to Black Americans. Ethiopians do not hold the belief that ancient Israelites were "black" or had a similar appearance to them. There is no appropriation, no revisionism, and no particular ideology associated with this perspective, which stands in contrast to the situation among Black Americans. In fact, I've seen many horners making fun of the we wuz claims of Black americans.
Regarding Queen Sheba, while it's likely that she originated from Yemen, there is some uncertainty surrounding this claim. In many ancient sources, there is ambiguity when it comes to distinguishing between southern Arabia and the Horn. Good examples of this uncertainty can be seen in references to the enigmatic "land of Ophir" and the "Land of Punt".
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Nanny Town: You are fooling no one White nationalist, White supremacists and anyone period who suffer from the chronic affliction and obsession of anti-Blackness such as yourself hate to see Blacks and and none Whites in general portraying biblical icons as anything other than White the whiter the better.
"White nationalist" "White supremacist" while I'm not even european what are you talking about ?
quote:Originally posted by Nanny Town: I am sure that you know that Ethiopians have a tradition of depicting biblical icons as Black like themselves. You are also aware that Ethiopians and any other Blacks depicting Jesus and his mother in the likeness of people that look like they are from Norway like in the pic above benefits White nationalism and not the Ethiopians, and stroke your anti Blackness and anti African obsession which is your sole purpose on Egyptsearch
Black ? Ethiopians exhibit genetic characteristics that place them in an intermediate position. They are genetically closer to North Africans and Middle Eastern populations than to those from West, Central, or South Africa. Morphologically, they tend to cluster more closely with West Eurasians, including Europeans, rather than "blacks". So why do you put them in the same category ?
"Anti African" while I'm literally african XD
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Uh... Yea. And wouldn't this be the same exact thing for Black Americans? But lets see:
1. Abyssinians renamed their country and themselves "Ethiopian" which is a Greek word which was NOT originally meant for them but people in the area of Sudan who they had nothing to do with.
2. Believes the Lost Ark is found in Ethiopia.
3. Depictions of Black Jesus(again... How the hell is this different from Black Americans???).
4. Africanizing Queen Sheba.
But yet no smoke for your Afro-Asiatic brothers. Who are the original "Afrocentrics" if we being real.
As I mentioned before, the situation is quite different when comparing Ethiopians to Black Americans. Ethiopians do not hold the belief that ancient Israelites were "black" or had a similar appearance to them. There is no appropriation, no revisionism, and no particular ideology associated with this perspective, which stands in contrast to the situation among Black Americans. In fact, I've seen many horners making fun of the we wuz claims of Black americans.
Regarding Queen Sheba, while it's likely that she originated from Yemen, there is some uncertainty surrounding this claim. In many ancient sources, there is ambiguity when it comes to distinguishing between southern Arabia and the Horn. Good examples of this uncertainty can be seen in references to the enigmatic "land of Ophir" and the "Land of Punt".
quote:The Ethiopian Empire, also known as Abyssinia, existed from approximately 1270 until 1974. The empire was established by Yekuno Amlak, who claimed descent from King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. The empire was originally small and politically unstable, but expanded significantly during the crusades of Amda Seyon I and Dawit I. The empire reached its peak during the long reign of Emperor Zara Yaqob
The Kebra Nagast
quote:The central Solomonic narrative of the text is thought to derive from the Zagwe dynasty, who believed the Axumites were descended from Solomon.[11][12] "Makeda" might have its origins in multiple terms. Sabaean inscriptions mention mlkt (𐩣𐩡𐩫𐩩, "queen");[13] furthermore, Sabaean tribes knew the title of mqtwyt (𐩣𐩤𐩩𐩥𐩺𐩩, "high official"). Alternatively Makueda, the personal name of the queen in Ethiopian legend might be interpreted as a popular rendering of the title of mqtwyt.[14] Other historians consider parts of the Kebre Negast date to as late as the end of the sixteenth century, when Muslim incursions and contacts with the wider Christian world made the Ethiopian Church concerned with asserting its character and Jewish traditions.[15]
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Tafari was crowned Negusa Nagast, literally King of Kings, rendered in English as "Emperor".[42] Upon his ascension, he took as his regnal name Haile Selassie I. Haile means in Ge'ez "Power of" and Selassie means trinity—therefore Haile Selassie roughly translates to "Power of the Trinity".[43] Haile Selassie's full title in office was "By the Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah , His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Elect of God
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The "The Book of Clarence" takes place 33 AD in Jerusalem. Are there any ancient studies that analyzed DNA close to that time in Israel of any of the neighboring countries?
According to our good jewish brother Tukuler
And from my own research I can concur.
quote:[Ethiopian peoples and their customs]
[Physical features]
[QUOTE] But there are also a great number of descent groups (genē) among the Ethiopians, some of them dwelling in the land lying on both banks of the Nile and on the islands in the river, others inhabiting the neighbouring country of Arabia , and still others residing in the interior of Libya. (2) The majority of them, and especially those who dwell along the river, are dark-skinned and have flat noses and wooly hair.
Citation with stable link: Philip A. Harland, 'Ethiopians: Diodoros on their claims, appearance, and customs (mid-first century BCE),' Ethnic Relations and Migration in the Ancient World, last modified November 23, 2022, http://philipharland.com/Blog/?p=8036.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Tafari was crowned Negusa Nagast, literally King of Kings, rendered in English as "Emperor".[42] Upon his ascension, he took as his regnal name Haile Selassie I. Haile means in Ge'ez "Power of" and Selassie means trinity—therefore Haile Selassie roughly translates to "Power of the Trinity".[43] Haile Selassie's full title in office was "By the Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah , His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Elect of God
Your point ? People can believe they descend from someone yet being aware they aren't exactly similar to their ancestor.
Also Haile Selassie didn't feel "black" and described himself as caucasian :
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Tafari was crowned Negusa Nagast, literally King of Kings, rendered in English as "Emperor".[42] Upon his ascension, he took as his regnal name Haile Selassie I. Haile means in Ge'ez "Power of" and Selassie means trinity—therefore Haile Selassie roughly translates to "Power of the Trinity".[43] Haile Selassie's full title in office was "By the Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah , His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Elect of God
Your point ? People can believe they descend from someone yet being aware they aren't exactly similar to their ancestor.
Also Haile Selassie didn't feel "black" and described himself as caucasian :
Quit changing the subject. The subject was did the Abyssinian appropriate Judean/Jewish/Israelite culture.
There are only two possible answers to this.
Yes they did. or They are descendants of the true Israelite and jews.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Quit changing the subject. The subject was did the Abyssinian appropriate Judean/Jewish/Israelite culture.
There are only two possible answers to this.
Yes they did. or They are descendants of the true Israelite and jews. [/QB]
They didn't. They merely asserted their dynasty had Israelite origins to legitimize their authority. What's the issue with that ? The King of Morocco openly claims descent from the Prophet Muhammad.
This is quite different from Black Americans asserting that ancient Israelites shared physical/genetic similarities with them and that they alone are the genuine Jews.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Quit changing the subject. The subject was did the Abyssinian appropriate Judean/Jewish/Israelite culture.
There are only two possible answers to this.
Yes they did. or They are descendants of the true Israelite and jews.
They didn't. They merely asserted their dynasty had Israelite origins to legitimize their authority. What's the issue with that ? The King of Morocco openly claims descent from the Prophet Muhammad.
This is quite different from Black Americans asserting that ancient Israelites shared physical/genetic similarities with them and that they alone are the genuine Jews. [/QB]
That is just not true. They believe themselves to be the true Israelites
quote:As physical descendants of Judean aristocracy of Solomon’s age, Ethiopian Christians are the real Israel of flesh. As Christians, they are the real Israel in spiritu (just as other Christians are), being thus Israel twice. And they are thrice Israel, as the only correct Christians after Chalcedon (well, together with Copts, Armenians, and Syriac Jacobites).
55. The Jews of Ethiopia to 1862 (Jewish History Lab)
6:22
Ethiopians regards themselves as Israelites.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote:Originally posted by Askia_The_Great: Hell. The "Israelite" thing isn't just Black Americans either but also Caribbeans too and heck Africans! You have a loud minority of Igbos who truly believe they are the Hebrews. https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html
Then you also have this tribe in Zimbabwe. [/QB]
The thread is a whole troll attempt. let alone disingenuous.
-For one, Afrocentrism is poorly defined, so there nothing really to argue against as far as the Afrocentricity of the subject matter. -For two, it isn't Afrocentric to race-bend based on phenotype. Especially if you want to pigeon-hole those who claim being descendant from the Levant or Arabia in congruence with their faith. That region isn't Africa. So people who believe this aren't Afrocentric. -For three, he once again tries to bait and switch using genetic inferences to suggest kinship and in return assign phenotype. But at the same time makes the argument that people can look different from their predecessors. It's complete lack of self awareness and cognitive dissonance. Tell him his north African ancestors looked different from him and he loses his shit lol. -Four, it is a universal and non-controversial point that people pray to and/or prefer to pray to figures and gods who resemble their own people. So race bending a totem is not unique to Africans in even the slightest. In fact to get people to assimilate to a society or a religious foundation, missionaries are incentivized to conceal true defining racial characteristics or even create new gods akin to the people being assimilated. -Five, he's tone deaf about what and which Afrocentric points have been debated among Afrocentrists (true definition of the term.) For Instance; he's unaware of the fact that mostly phenotypic an morphological inferences is what facilitated claims that bantu-Africans for example, descended from A.Egyptians. And the more Eurocentric talking point at that time was that despite morphological and skin color overlap, the A.Egyptians were not akin to other Africans, moreso than they were blackened-adapted Eurasians; ie the hamitic myth/hypothesis. Same thing for ancient levantine people who shown some minor traits attributable to black people. He's unaware that they're camps of people who can acknowledge these overlaps without projecting kinship. And the reason why he lacks that awareness is because he himself uses the latter to retroactively define the former.
...This whole thing was a garbage troll attempt, or so I hope.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: ...This is quite different from Black Americans asserting that ancient Israelites shared physical/genetic similarities with them...
Uhhhhh... a firsthand eyewitness account recorded by the muslim arabs invading Egypt (7th century) describes Israelites as being indistinguishable from Ethiopians and Nubians ("black africans"). This has been explained to you before. Get over it bruh, it's historical fact.
"A Short History of the Copts and of Their Church" by The Rev. S.C. Malan, M.A., page 72 (1873) D. Nutt
posted
The thing is though, that majority of AAs DO NOT see Jesus/ and or Ancient Israel as Black. Thats the whole reason for the BHI and one of their Gimmicks i.e that AAs pray to a white Jesus..its the same One Trick Pony critique from black Muslims like Malcolm X who said the same thing about AA Xtians.
Its so weird for this dude to not only push a thread based on faux out raged generated (Im guessing by) anti-SJW twitter trolls, but to persist DESPITE being called out on his BS by multiple AA members.
Is'nt this the behavior he accuses Afrocentrics of engaging in...how Ironic. You really can't make this stuff up.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
-Four, it is a universal and non-controversial point that people pray to and/or prefer to pray to figures and gods who resemble their own people.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: -For three, he once again tries to bait and switch using genetic inferences to suggest kinship and in return assign phenotype. But at the same time makes the argument that people can look different from their predecessors. It's complete lack of self awareness and cognitive dissonance. Tell him his north African ancestors looked different from him and he loses his shit lol.
LOL, I've definitely noticed that about the OP poster. He'll make inferences about ancient people's phenotype based on where published aDNA samples plot on a PCA chart...as long as it's convenient for him (e.g. try telling him that Iberomaurusians might have looked "Aethiopid" since they happen to plot close to Horners on this PCA at least).
Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
So from what I gather it appears that almost 100% of the users on this website, regardless of their personal belief system(s), largely agree that antalas is an unhinged pseudo troll.
Posts: 2493 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: So from what I gather it appears that almost 100% of the users on this website, regardless of their personal belief system(s), largely agree that antalas is an unhinged pseudo troll.
Yes
I would say an unhinged pseudo racist troll
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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It is interesting to see that Egyptians and ancient Israelites have been played by both "white" and "black" actors. But we seldom see persons from the more southern part of Africa being portraid by "white" actors. Imagine a white Shaka Zulu, or Nelson Mandela. It would probably stir up a lot of feelings and reactions.
Even a fantasy figure like Black Panther could probably not be played by a "white" actor without a lot of reactions.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It is interesting to see that Egyptians and ancient Israelites have been played by both "white" and "black" actors. But we seldom see persons from the more southern part of Africa being portraid by "white" actors. Imagine a white Shaka Zulu, or Nelson Mandela. It would probably stir up a lot of feelings and reactions.
Even a fantasy figure like Black Panther could probably not be played by a "white" actor without a lot of reactions.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It is interesting to see that Egyptians and ancient Israelites have been played by both "white" and "black" actors. But we seldom see persons from the more southern part of Africa being portraid by "white" actors. Imagine a white Shaka Zulu, or Nelson Mandela. It would probably stir up a lot of feelings and reactions.
Even a fantasy figure like Black Panther could probably not be played by a "white" actor without a lot of reactions.
Sir Lawrence Olivier comes to mind when it comes to black face and Black/African characters
Othello the Moor of course
But the one that hits is Sir Laurence as the real life Mohammed Ahmed bin Abdullah bin Fahal was born on 12 August 1843 in Labab Island, Dongola in northern Sudan. He was born into a notable religious Arabized Nubian family Muhammad Ahmed (a Sudanese leader whose devotees proclaimed him the Mahdi) Who defeated the British & The Egyptians in the Sudan
The Mahdi's son
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Today the opposition against such things are somewhat more pronounced. Even a meme or drawing on the net of a white Black Panther seems to have rendered some protests, so one can just imagine how such a film would be received.
In older times also Asians have been played by white actors
Like Werner Oland playing the Chinese detective Charlie Chan
Sometimes Asians have played characters who where white from the beginning like Jackie Chan playing Passepartout in Around the World in Eighty Days
Passepartout has also been played by African French actor Ibrahim Koma. It seems not have avoken too many protests.
But it seems that race swapping on film has become a somewhat more contentious issue lately.
There is no film with a white/European Black Panther yet, but I still think there would be protests if such film was made. In parts how race swapping is received depends also on which figure being race swapped and how dear that figure is to a certain people (like we saw in the case of Cleopatra, Egyptians did not care much when Aalliyah played the ancient Egyptian vampire queen Akasha).
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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One figure that has not been race swapped on film yet is Tarzan. According to some such a film would annoy both "white" and "black" audiences sine the figure Tarzan was written as a white man (many have grown up with the character), in some way symbolizing European presence in Africa. On the other hand an African Tarzan could awake old reminiscents of African people being characterized as "apes". An African ape man would not be especially well received.
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But still today Egyptians and ancient Israelis seems to be race swapped in both directions. Hopefully we will see some Hollywood productions where ancient Egyptians are portraid by Egyptian actors, and ancient Israelites by Israeli actors.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Nah, that has happened too, especially with books of fiction then Hollywood actually whitewashed the character.
Only white actors have played Heathcliff until recent times, TOTAL white washing because the romance would have been interacial thus taboo
Moses! Moses was a black hebrew egyptian living in the delta around Goshen...
Has a black actor ever played Moses?
Sahih al-Bukhari 3395, 3396 Book 60, Hadith 69
The Prophet may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him mentioned the night of his Ascension and said, “The prophet Moses was Adam ( dark brown to jet black ) , a tall as if he was from the men of the tribe of Shanu’a.
وَذَكَرَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم لَيْلَةَ أُسْرِيَ بِهِ فَقَالَ ” مُوسَى آدَمُ طُوَالٌ كَأَنَّهُ مِنْ رِجَالِ شَنُوءَةَ ”
Sahih Muslim 165 Book 1, Hadith 326
”On my night journey I passed by Musa Ibn Imraan may peace be upon him was an Adam (dark brown to jet black skinned) man, tall, kinky/woolly haired as if he was a man from Shanua tribe”
مررت ليلة أسري بي على موسى بن عمران عليه السلام . رجل آدم طوال جعد . كأنه من رجال شنوء
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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The 2017 film features a character named Edwina, played by Kirsten Dunst. In the original 1966 novel of the same name, Edwina was biracial. The novel also included a Black female slave character who didn't appear in the film.
Stuck is sort of a bizarre film to begin with. It's about a woman who hits a man with her car, sending him flying through her windshield, where he gets stuck. Instead of helping him get out or calling 911, she drives back to her house with him still inside her windshield and parks him in her garage because she doesn't want to get in trouble.
Even stranger, it's based on the true story of Chante Jawan Mallard, a Black nursing assistant. Instead of casting a Black actor in the role, director Stuart Gordon cast Suvari, who inexplicably sports cornrows in the film.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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Have any Israeli or North African Jews, or Yemenite Jews ever played Moses in Hollywood?
Yes I agree with Roma people, they are often played by white actors, like Noomi Rapace in the Sherlock Holmes movie Game of Shadows
Otherwise Romes can vary in skin color depending of where they live and if they are somewhat mixed. I have met Finnish Romes who are quite light skinned, Swedish Romes, Romanian Romes, a bit darker, and in Greece I also saw many Romes, they were still a bit darker.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And Native Americans of course have also mostly been played by white actors in older times, and still today
Johnny Depp as Tonto in the Lone Ranger
This is brownface not whitewash or erasure
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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posted
There are Native American who think that such things are both a kind of erasure and cultural appropriation. It erases the real Native cultures and replaces them with fake Hollywood Natives.
But at least films like this do not claim that the ancestors (or precursors) of Native Americans were Africans, Welsh or Israels lost tribes.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
I came to think about the TV series Vikings Valhalla. There they race swapped and gender swapped a Viking jarl into a Black woman. It attracted some attention here in Scandinavia. I remember a couple of comments on a history forum:
quote: I was dying to see it until I saw they made a black woman a "Jarl Estrid Haakon". Then I checked out.
quote: I watched it until I saw a Black woman who came riding on a horse, then I stopped watching.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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I think everyone agrees that inputting black talent into unsupported roles either by race swapping or ignoring geographical and historical context for the sake of diversity is lame and lazy. It's not that controversial of an idea.
But you're tossing together a bunch of unrelated examples while posing loaded questions which have been addressed by others on this page. You're obfuscating once again.
The black panther example is a clear indication that your ideas aren't well intentioned. It doesn't take much thought to realized how raceswapping a character like that will simply destroy the character itself, it's not outrage that will be the main problem. Think about the latest Disney live action Snow White with a Mexican Actress for example. (or even the genderswapping of the lost boys in peterpan)
You're asking why they don't use Egyptians and and Israelis to portray their ancient counterparts? If this is your honest question, I can suggest honest answers. For one Hollywood, or any other film industry for that matter, never prioritized ethnic accuracy. This whole idea of accurate representation is new. More important and practical things determined whether and actor will get a roll. -Talent -availability -Aesthetic.
Do yourself a favor and go back in time and watch the old version of "Death on the nile." -1978, Examine how they had a Pakistani have the only speaking roles of an Egyptian and it worked for the time. But I want you to pay attention to all of the extras in the background in that movie. They filmed at the set location so their were nothing but native Egyptians in the background. I would like you to report what you see.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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USA is a multicultural society, there are immigrants from nearly the whole world, so finding actors who at least have recent descent from for example Egypt would not be impossible. By doing so one can also broaden the diversity in a more natural way than just throw in, for example, a black actor at random just to create diversity for its own sake. At least in leading roles it would not take an enormous effort. It would also give more jobs for actors usually underrepresented in Hollywoods films.
I know that some effort have been done to let actual Native Americans play Native roles (even if Hollywood not always strictly adheres to it), but there are other groups that also could be better represented. How many actual Egyptians had leading roles in a film like Gods of Egypt?
One can also wonder over the thought process behind a black Viking jarl, or a black mermaid in a Danish tale. And why a black Heimdall (even if Idris Elba is a very good actor)? Maybe inclusivity can be achieved in more creative ways.
One can maybe start to tell more genuine "black" stories instead of race swapping "white" figures. How many animated films has for example Disney made set in Africa with African people as protagonists?
I can agree that a white Black Panther would probably not be a good film, just like a black Tarzan also would agree badly with the underlying story.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
So far, has any Israeli or Palestinian, or other Middle Eastern actor played Jesus in a Hollywood film?
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
Prove that modern israelis, palestinians, etc. are the same people as the ancient Jews, then you have a valid argument.
Posts: 2493 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: USA is a multicultural society, there are immigrants from nearly the whole world, so finding actors who at least have recent descent from for example Egypt would not be impossible. By doing so one can also broaden the diversity in a more natural way than just throw in, for example, a black actor at random just to create diversity for its own sake. At least in leading roles it would not take an enormous effort. It would also give more jobs for actors usually underrepresented in Hollywoods films.
I know that some effort have been done to let actual Native Americans play Native roles (even if Hollywood not always strictly adheres to it), but there are other groups that also could be better represented. How many actual Egyptians had leading roles in a film like Gods of Egypt?
One can also wonder over the thought process behind a black Viking jarl, or a black mermaid in a Danish tale. And why a black Heimdall (even if Idris Elba is a very good actor)? Maybe inclusivity can be achieved in more creative ways.
One can maybe start to tell more genuine "black" stories instead of race swapping "white" figures. How many animated films has for example Disney made set in Africa with African people as protagonists?
I can agree that a white Black Panther would probably not be a good film, just like a black Tarzan also would agree badly with the underlying story.
No you're not going to conflate arguments and bait and switch around your talking pints on a whim.
More often than not people with genuine lineage do not portray a role in question.
No one finds it controversial that race swapping for the sake of diversity is lame and lazy. Don't try to hide your intentions behind that argument.
Let's talk about Egyptians... There are many Egyptian actors who get roles in Hollywood and etc. But casting a role for the expressed attempt at going for accuracy based solely on "relatedness" or National representation is a new idea. It is a "woke" idea. And you're pushing for it while complaining about blacks being pushed in the same form of media for the same type of agenda.
Only recently has your concerns been of any importance. Actors got their roles based on their Talent, Aestetic and availability.
Let's use your same example:
Chadwick Boseman who plays a king of a fictional East African Kingdom whom spoke an east African language, was an American, who couldn't speak a lick of Xhosa before the role. -But he was talented, he fit the aesthetic of being black and somewhat athletic and charismatic and he was available.
Marvel's Heimdal was played by an actor who was Available, popular and talented. His aesthetic could be seen as a problem, but the majority of the cast has no Scandinavian heritage and the look they were going for was mystical magical negro. So the issue is more centered around would anyone want to see a black person and not does a black person portray any accuracy. For as we can all tell, lore and accuracy as well as Scandinavian representation was not the goal of Marvel's film. So if your complaints just stop at Heimdal you have to fully explain why in that case.
I gave you a task of look into "Death on the Nile" 1978... Do you think it was or wasn't okay to have the only Egyptian with a speaking role be played by a Pakistani? And what do you think of all of the actual Egyptians who had to work in the back? Do you think you'll be able to tell them apart aesthetically from some other Nationals or ethnic groups? What reason do you think they didn't just use one of the available Egyptians on set for the speaking role?
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
WAHAHAHA. I came back to see the usual suspects complaining about boogeymen again. And yall keep falling for the bait, it's getting sad. Do yall not see what hes doing with posting this sh*t? Posts: 80 | From: USA, America | Registered: May 2023
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posted
But I can agree, Hollywood is a cesspool of misrepresentation, they do not care about much if they only can earn some money.
What one can do is to try to watch more films which are actually made in Egypt, or other countries in Africa and the Middle East, to at least get another view of the world than the one produced by American mass culture.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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No you're not going to conflate arguments and bait and switch around your talking pints on a whim.
You do not decide what I write or not write, and I will not jump on some stupid task from your side, who do you think you are? Silly.
I can comment what I want in this thread as long as I do not break any forum rules.
You're asking dumb loaded questions I can ask one in return. You're not gonna conflate arguments and bait and switch around your talking pints on a whim. If you do I'll call it out and I urge others who read your posts to do the same.
how about you google Israeli actors and their roles and stop asking dumb questions if you can't watch a movie set in Egypt with actual Egyptians in it and think about your own position as it relates to that.
Silly
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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