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There is a rather high diversity in Egypt so I imagine they could find someone.
Maybe a guy like Amir Salah El-Din? He is an Egyptian of Nubian heritage. His features are not an exact copy of Amenhotep, but at least he is an Egyptian citizen and has a skin tone reminding of the kings in the painting. I am no expert on Egyptian actors, but maybe there are others who are more like the king. If they scout around a while they might find some.
Amir is 42 years old. Don´t know if he is too old? But Amenhotep became 53 so it is maybe ok with the age.
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It is unrealistic though to expect a movie company would spend multi-millions on say, a dramatization of Joan of Arc and in search of an actress who had some fame, some box office draw, that they would have to restrict their casting search only to French nationals
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Probably, so maybe there will be similar conflicts about the skin color or ethnicity of actors also in the future. But maybe in the future American TV companies will abstain from too provocative statements, like the one made by Shelley Haley. That will say if they want to avoid this kind of conflict.
Now the Cleopatra series seems not to have been so popular among other, non Egyptian, watchers either.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Doug, are you at all contributing more to this thread than just whining? Seems you are just here to complain.
No I am challenging you who opens all these threads trying to attack black people and blame them for the history of racism and colorism in society and culture. You keep doing this and then pretend to be dumb when someone calls you out on this.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But back to the question, the museum made a exhibition about mostly American black pop culture and its use of Egyptian symbols, clothes and similar. So the subject was about American pop culture. Egyptians obviously do not like to have their history associated with certain kinds of American pop culture. Is that hard to understand? If you have problem with it so write to Egyptian authorities and complain. They maybe not read posts here on ES.
OK, but again, why did the Egyptians not attack those American performers then? Because they can't as it is against artistic freedom. There is no court of law anywhere that would even hear this nonsense and those entertainers would certainly be in their rights to do so. Them adopting the dress of the ancient Nile Valley is not a "scientific" argument and the image of Nas over King Tuts mummy mask is simply a reflection of the reality that Africans have similar features. And this is the whole point, you cannot claim that these actions on the part of the Egyptian government are anything other than extremist. Yet you sit here and try to argue that this is legitimate because black people are trying to steal African history and culture. This is the whole point of you continually posting threads about this trying to make it seem that black people in America are the problem. And you are doing this because you can't debate the facts so you resort to trying to find other ways to attack black people for pointing out the obvious facts of history on the Nile.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: You seem paranoid, you see anti African and anti Black conspiracies everywhere. Not only in this contexts, judging from other posts you seem to see it in many scientific papers and studies too.
Egyptian government has no obligation to endorse American commercial mass culture that uses ancient Egyptian symbols or clothes for commercial or political purposes..
And they have no reason to satisfy Black Americans who try to attach themselves to the culture of a country many of them never visited or have any ties with.
These actions of the Egyptian government are not a conspiracy, because it was done publicly. The point is you have created multiple threads on this forum on this topic and topics related to the Cleopatra TV show. You aren't doing this to "inform" anybody because one thread is more than enough to inform people. And sure, this happens here on ES, but not back to back like you are doing. The only reason you are doing this is to try and promote anti-black propaganda as if black people are trying to steal ancient African history when that history was stolen by Europeans not black people. And you are doing it because you keep losing when it comes to facts of history so you resort to simply promoting anti-black propaganda to try and claim that black people don't have the right to speak on African history. This attitude is nothing but anti black, because black people have every right to discuss history in the world just like anybody else and that includes ALL PARTs of African history. You trying to argue that they don't have that right is the problem. Just like you trying to argue that they don't have artistic freedom is also the problem.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: That is irrelevant, Egyptians do not owe African Americans to be a playground for their racial dreams and fantasies, or letting them use that culture for their own purposes.
The modern Egyptian government do not owe Black Americans anything. It is their land and their culture and if they protest against foreigners using their cultures for their own purposes it is up to them. Maybe if Black Americans stubbornly continue to use Egypt´s ancient culture, or force their American racial perspectives on Egyptian culture, maybe more of them will be banned from Egypt.
And there it is, somehow you are trying to argue that black people in America don't have the right to discuss, study and imitate any aspect of culture and history that they want just like anybody else can. Which is nothing but anti-black propaganda. Then according to you black people in America, who were stolen from Africa and stripped of their language and culture from Africa are the source of all the distortion of history around the world. Not to mention you try and act like Africans are the ones who stole African history from Africa and made lies and distortions about this history. This is what I mean by you posting anti-black propaganda to justify extremist actions on the part of the Egyptian government. You just admitted it and this is why I am calling you out on it. Because nobody challenges Europeans dressing up as Egyptians and using Egyptian themes in their entertainment, but when black people of African descent do it, all of a sudden there is a controversy. Not to mention the Europeans have stolen that African history from Africa and put it in their museum yet the Egyptian government is more outraged about black entertainers dressing as King Tut. Again, the Nile is in Africa and the history of the Nile is African history and all Africans have every right to identify with it as part of African history. You sitting here trying to act like black people don't have that right is the problem. Because even if someone from Ethiopia or Somalia or Sudan did it, you STILL would claim that these people are "appropriating" African history. And the whole issue is blackness as in skin color which is what you are against and why you keep promoting these extremist actions as justified as part of black Africans stealing black African history.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Most African Americans have no real cultural contact with Africa or any cultural continuity anymore. And especially with Egypt which lies in a different part of Africa than the one many African American descend from. Seem some Americans think they own the whole world just because they had ancestors who came from other places hundreds of years ago.
Again, the point is you trying to tell black people what they can and cannot do as scholars and artists. They have every right to identify as Africans and it isn't up to Europeans or anybody else to tell them they can't. Again, it is you attacking black people that is the issue here and promoting or justifying anti black racist extremist actions like that of the Egyptian government. Because again, the Egyptians have no problem imitating and copying the artistic creations of these black people in music while claiming that these black people are appropriating African history.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well, people who live in Africa are more African than people who never sat their foot in Africa or can talk any African language, or have no connection to Africa more than genetics and skin tone.
This regardless of skin tone.
Again, you keep spewing anti black propaganda because you know full well the issue is skin color and you keep trying to promote this nonsense from the Egyptians as somehow justified. Black Africans in or outside of Africa have every right to identify with African history. And NOBODY speaks the language of the ancient Nile Valley so to sit up here and argue that this has anything to do with it is just you spouting dumb sh*t. The Ancient culture of the Nile Valley was a black African culture and this is the part you don't like. But because you can't prove otherwise, you resort to antics like these threads supporting the extremist actions of the Egyptian government. And they themselves know full damn well that the ancient Nile Valley was populated by black people and that the culture of the ancient Nile was very different than Egypt today as an "Arab Republic". All you do is run around and try and bring up any and all excuse to try and justify this because you are promoting anti-black propaganda. So black Americans can't identify with ancient Africans on the Nile, but modern Egypt can freely copy and imitate black people's culture in America. Hilarious.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It is not anti African propaganda, African Americans are not Africans anymore, they are AMERICANS. They have not so much to do with Africa anymore, and especially not with Egypt. That some Egyptians chose to listen to American music is not the same as using traditional, ancient Egyptian culture for commercial purposes, or as they did in Netflix Cleopatra claiming that historical Egyptian figures had a certain skin color. Egyptians do not claim American history.
African Americans have African features because they are Africans, just like white Americans have European features because they are European and Asian Americans have Asian features because they are Asian. Europeans in America routinely do stories about European history and culture because that is where they came from. Asian Americans often do stories about Asia because that is where they came from. None of these people were in America 500 years ago. You sitting here trying to tell Africans in America what they can and cannot identify with based on the historical fact that these people's ancestors came from Africa is you spouting anti-black propaganda. That is all it is and there is no point denying it. That is all you keep doing which is trying to show that black people are the problem in all these things, whether racism, colorism, historical revisionism, cultural appropriation or antyhing else, it is ALWAYs black people fault and never anybody else. European racism, colonialism, theft and murder never get mentioned as if somehow they never did anything wrong, but black Aficans are always the problem according to you. And somehow just the idea that black people are studying or interested in any part of history in Africa or the world is a problem for you. Because ultimately the issue is Europeans trying to control the discussion of history and anthropology to promote racial propaganda. They have been doing it for the past 300 years and it is they who created the concept of race as a psseudo science and spread it all over the planet, with the ultimate goal to promote white and light skin as the key to human history and evolution. Yet according to YOU the problem is black people. This is what I mean by anti-black propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Yes rap is African American culture that has not much to do with Egypt or ancient Egyptian culture. Rap has no real connection with Egypt or traditional Egyptian music.
The point is you don't hear any black people complaining about the Egyptians being inspired by it. This is normal and happens all over the planet, but somehow according to YOU black people cannot be inspired by the ancient African history of the Nile. So it is hypocrisy. And you know this but again, you keep spouting anti black propaganda trying to somehow exclude black people from the same rights everybody else has.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Rap is maybe popular among certain segments of the population, but not all. It is a matter of class, education, age and other factors, who likes certain music styles or who embraces certain cultural expressions.
Those Egyptians who happen to like rap music are not necessarily the same people who protest against he Dutch exhibition, or who wants to ban certain rappers to perform in Egypt.
One thing is sure, todays Egyptians are more Egyptian than most African Americans. They are also more African than most African Americans.
Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African Americans have.
Today's Egypt is an Arab Republic and has very little cultural or linguistic relationship to the ancient Nile Valley. Again, you are on this forum where we have been discussing these facts for many years, yet you avoid that because you know you keep losing, but somehow try and prop up this idea that the modern "Arab Republic of Egypt" is the same as the ancient African kingdom of Kemet, when it is not. Again you are doing this to promote anti-black propaganda because black Americans are the main ones pointing out the lies of Egyptology and European anthropology trying to hide the fact that the ancient Nile Valley kingdom was built by black Africans. But instead of addressing the facts you can't deny, you sit up here, just like the Egyptian government, trying to use the Dutch Museum and black entertainers as a scapegoat. And your argument that this is justified because modern Egypt is the same as ancient Kemet is nonsense and you know it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Here is a film that can be a reminder of some of the ties todays Egyptians have with Ancient Egypt
And the fact is that modern Egypt promotes itself as "Mediterranean" with more in common with Eurasia than Africa, including having very light skin tones. This has been stated many times by various Egyptologists and others. But the ancient Nile Valley was an African culture with more in common with Africa than Eurasia, including black skin. This is the fundamental issue and everybody knows it, which boils down to skin color. Trying to use this issue of the Dutch museum to try and legitimize the colorist and racist history of Egyptology and the Europeans who created it is the problem, especially in attacking black people in and outside Africa who challenged them on their lies. And this isn't just an issue of black people in America as Chiekh Anta Diop was an African and linguist and they also challenged him for the same reason.
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quote:No I am challenging you who opens all these threads trying to attack black people and blame them for the history of racism and colorism in society and culture. You keep doing this and then pretend to be dumb when someone calls you out on this.
I feel free to open any thread I want which have any connection to subjects which are usually talked about here on ES. And some ethnocentric Americans trying to put their noses into others history are always worth challenging.
Btw, Funny, I never seen you attack some of the more or less anti white threads which have been posted here on ES, where whites have been called "albinos", "cave peoples" and similar and posters are accused of being nazis or similar. Then I do not see you post long diatribes about having to challenge anti whiteness. Seems a bit biased.
quote:OK, but again, why did the Egyptians not attack those American performers then? Because they can't as it is against artistic freedom. There is no court of law anywhere that would even hear this nonsense and those entertainers would certainly be in their rights to do so. Them adopting the dress of the ancient Nile Valley is not a "scientific" argument and the image of Nas over King Tuts mummy mask is simply a reflection of the reality that Africans have similar features. And this is the whole point, you cannot claim that these actions on the part of the Egyptian government are anything other than extremist.
Egypt is an independent nation, they have the right to ban anyone that they feel misrepresent their history or identity. We as westerners may like it or not like it, but it is still their right. Still they are not as extreme as some reactions in some other muslim countries when they feel westerners are insulting their religion (as the cases with Muhammad cartoons or Quran burnings have shown).
But I can understand that some Egyptians reacting over Americans and others trying to define their ancestors or their history.
Then one can always discuss if it is fair that they seem to react harder when "black" Americans do it than if "white" Americans and Europeans do it. But they also have reacted when Israeli actors, or actors supporting Israel have portraid persons from Egypt´s history.
quote:Yet you sit here and try to argue that this is legitimate because black people are to steal African history and culture. This is the whole point of you continually posting trying threads about this trying to make it seem that black people in America are the problem. And you are doing this because you can't debate the facts so you resort to trying to find other ways to attack black people for pointing out the obvious facts of history on the Nile.
Some African Americans are always posting a lot of nonsense online where they claim ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Israel, ancient Native Americans and so on. Of course Egyptians and others have noticed that. So if they reacting when African Americans do the same also in other media is not surprising. As long as some blackcentric fools continue to do such things there will be counter reactions, sometimes maybe exaggerated, but identity can be a sensitive issue for certain people.
quote:These actions of the Egyptian government are not a conspiracy, because it was done publicly. The point is you have created multiple threads on this forum on this topic and topics related to the Cleopatra TV show. You aren't doing this to "inform" anybody because one thread is more than enough to inform people. And sure, this happens here on ES, but not back to back like you are doing. The only reason you are doing this is to try and promote anti-black propaganda as if black people are trying to steal ancient African history when that history was stolen by Europeans not black people. And you are doing it because you keep losing when it comes to facts of history so you resort to simply promoting anti-black propaganda to try and claim that black people don't have the right to speak on African history.
I do not endorse any anti black propaganda, what I am opposed of is Black American, ethnocentric individuals who try to cling on to, and steal cultures that are not theirs. Whatever color for example ancient Egyptians had so have still Black Americans nothing with ancient Egypt to do. Most do not descend from that part of the African continent. The true inheritors to ancient Egypt is todays Egyptians and they are also the ones that have the responsibility to care for the part of that heritage which is located in Egypt. The Afrocentric babblers online do not do much for Egypts heritage, more than a lot of talk on the net.
quote:This attitude is nothing but anti black, because black people have every right to discuss history in the world just like anybody else and that includes ALL PARTs of African history. You trying to argue that they don't have that right is the problem. Just like you trying to argue that they don't have artistic freedom is also the problem.
Black people can discuss what they like but they have no right to distort history or to claim others heritage as their own with the argument that the progenitors of those peoples allegedly were "black".
Seems many of the online Afrocentrics are more interested in declaring other peoples ancestors black, than to discuss their own West African and Central African ancestors.
quote:And there it is, somehow you are trying to argue that black people in America don't have the right to discuss, study and imitate any aspect of culture and history that they want just like anybody else can.
Well, Egyptians have the right to ban anyone they think misrepresents their history. There is nothing you or I can do about it. So just live with it.
quote:Which is nothing but anti-black propaganda. Then according to you black people in America, who were stolen from Africa and stripped of their language and culture from Africa are the source of all the distortion of history around the world. Not to mention you try and act like Africans are the ones who stole African history from Africa and made lies and distortions about this history.
I do not say that Africans stole anything from Africa. Black Americans are Americans, and like their white counterparts they also claim others heritage, the difference is that they have no power to realize their claims. They can not go to Egypt or Mexico and claim the ancient ruins or artifacts. But it does not hinder some of them to express such wishes.
quote:Again, the point is you trying to tell black people what they can and cannot do as scholars and artists. They have every right to identify as Africans and it isn't up to Europeans or anybody else to tell them they can't. Again, it is you attacking black people that is the issue here and promoting or justifying anti black racist extremist actions like that of the Egyptian government. Because again, the Egyptians have no problem imitating and copying the artistic creations of these black people in music while claiming that these black people are appropriating African history.
I do not tell African Americans what to talk about, I have not that power, but if Egyptians start to ban some African Americans for distorting Egypt´s past, or if Native Americans gets offended by having others trying stealing their history I can understand that.
quote:The Ancient culture of the Nile Valley was a black African culture and this is the part you don't like. But because you can't prove otherwise, you resort to antics like these threads supporting the extremist actions of the Egyptian government.
I do not have to prove anything, no people have the obligation to give away their history to cultureless Americans.
Most African Americans are not Egyptians, have never been Egyptians and will never be Egyptians. Better the Afrocentric extremists online learn to live with that fact and start to take interest in their own history instead of harassing Egyptians (and Native Americans and others) who try to defend their history.
quote:African Americans have African features because they are Africans, just like white Americans have European features because they are European and Asian Americans have Asian features because they are Asian.
So how long will they remain African, European or Asian? When will they be American? Never? Or 1000 years from now? So if one should follow that reasoning there are no real Americans, except the Native Americans.
quote:The point is you don't hear any black people complaining about the Egyptians being inspired by it. This is normal and happens all over the planet, but somehow according to YOU black people cannot be inspired by the ancient African history of the Nile. So it is hypocrisy. And you know this but again, you keep spouting anti black propaganda trying to somehow exclude black people from the same rights everybody else has.
It is not according to me, obviously some Egyptians do not want their traditional culture to be associated with rap or other American pop culture. And they have the right to chose themselves what foreign cultures they will accept or not accept. And as you yourself imply, there are some Egyptians who obviously like and accept rap and similar, while others do not. It is fully up to them to decide. Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African American has.
quote:And the fact is that modern Egypt promotes itself as "Mediterranean"
Actually, Egypt do indeed have a Mediterranean coast. They also have very ancient contacts with Mediterranean civilisations.
But there are several groups in Egypt, they are not a monolith, some may identify as Mediterranean, some as Arabs, others as Africans, but most just identify as Egyptians.
In the end Egyptians are the stewards of ancient Egypt and its heritage, they are closer geographically, culturally and probably genetically to ancient Egypt than the majority of African Americans. Most African American armchair historians online have not even been to Egypt, they just think that they are some kind of experts on ancient Egypt. They can of course continue their inane babbling online but Egyptians have no obligation to endorse them or welcome them to Egypt if they do not want to.
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A podcast (in German) where the Dutch Kemet exhibition, and the debate around it, is discussed. We also get a report from the 13th International Congress of Egyptologists in Leiden.
quote: Kemet (Conference + Exhibition) Roxane was in Leiden at the 13th International Congress of Egyptologists and visited the hotly debated special exhibition "Kemet - Egypt in Hip-Hop, Jazz, Soul & Funk". So this episode is not only about exciting insights but also about long-simmering conflicts...
September 3 the exhibition Kemet will end. During the weekend there will be some festivities
quote:Last Kemet weekend In the last Kemet weekend, the exhibition will be open for an extra long period on Friday 1 and Saturday 2 September, until 10 p.m. Moreover, admission is free on these days from 5 p.m. On Friday evening DJs O;Riordan and 7LeVeL7 play the best funk, jazz and soul in the museum's Temple Hall. On Saturday evening from 7 pm there is a program with music, workshops, lectures and guided tours.
The exhibition has been nominated for the Museum Magazine Exhibition Award of 2023.
quote:Will 'Kemet' be the exhibition of the year? Our exhibition Kemet – Egypt in hip-hop, jazz, soul & funk has been nominated for the Museum Magazine Exhibition Award of 2023. The professional jury has nominated ten exhibitions from the past year and it is up to the public to choose the winner. You can now vote online via the Museum magazine website. You can do so until Sunday 17 September. Subsequently, on Wednesday 4 October, it will be announced which exhibition will receive the 2023 Exhibition Award.
quote:No I am challenging you who opens all these threads trying to attack black people and blame them for the history of racism and colorism in society and culture. You keep doing this and then pretend to be dumb when someone calls you out on this.
I feel free to open any thread I want which have any connection to subjects which are usually talked about here on ES. And some ethnocentric Americans trying to put their noses into others history are always worth challenging.
And when you do open such threads it is fair game for scrutiny and discussion correct?. This museum exhibit was not created by African Americans nor was it even created in America. Yet you sit here and are trying to use it as a way to attack African Americans. That was the point you keep refusing to address. And just like you have the right to your opinions and express yourself, so do African Americans have the right to do the same, whether you agree with them or not. But instead of simply acknowledging that right, you sit here and attack African Americans whenever they say or do anything you don't agree with as if they don't have the same rights as you do. This is the problem I am pointing out which you keep promoting in almost all of your posts. African American artist freely expressing themselves as Africans are not "attacking" anybody. And for the modern Egyptian government to claim that they are is nothing but extremism, but apparently you are OK with that.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Btw, Funny, I never seen you attack some of the more or less anti white threads which have been posted here on ES, where whites have been called "albinos", "cave peoples" and similar and posters are accused of being nazis or similar. Then I do not see you post long diatribes about having to challenge anti whiteness. Seems a bit biased.
You don't know me nor what I have and haven't posted about on this forum. And it isn't relevant to you making spam posts on the same topic as a proxy to attack African Americans.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Egypt is an independent nation, they have the right to ban anyone that they feel misrepresent their history or identity. We as westerners may like it or not like it, but it is still their right. Still they are not as extreme as some reactions in some other muslim countries when they feel westerners are insulting their religion (as the cases with Muhammad cartoons or Quran burnings have shown).
Again, the Egyptian Government knows full well that they do not have the power to attack African American artists and their freedom of expression. That is the entire point. So they are attacking a European museum for exhibiting African American cultural expression and not the African American artists themselves. African American pop culture is one of the biggest exports of the United States and has been for over 100 years, yet according to you attacking the Dutch Museum is somehow not extremism in the slightest. That doesnt even make sense.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: But I can understand that some Egyptians reacting over Americans and others trying to define their ancestors or their history.
So you are saying that Egyptians promoting extreme anti-African behaviors is OK. That is the problem because it isn't OK. And that is why I keep calling you out because you sit here and complain about African American artists simply dressing up like an ancient Nile Valley African, claiming this is attacking Egyptians when it isnt. But when Egypt literally promotes extremist anti-African sentiments and actions, that is perfectly fine. Suppressing free expression and freedom of speech because you don't like it is not "understandable", it is extremist and anti-African. Not to mention African American artists have dressed up like all kinds of different cultures, but only somehow in your mind is it a problem when it comes to the Nile Valley, which is actually IN AFRICA. So you are admitting that the whole point of the thread is to promote extremist anti-African, anti-black, anti-African American propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Then one can always discuss if it is fair that they seem to react harder when "black" Americans do it than if "white" Americans and Europeans do it. But they also have reacted when Israeli actors, or actors supporting Israel have portraid persons from Egypt´s history.
It isn't fair. Period. To sit here and act like it is while complaining about your rights to express yourself on this forum, no matter how backward and nonsensical your posts are is hypocrisy.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Some African Americans are always posting a lot of nonsense online where they claim ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Israel, ancient Native Americans and so on. Of course Egyptians and others have noticed that. So if they reacting when African Americans do the same also in other media is not surprising. As long as some blackcentric fools continue to do such things there will be counter reactions, sometimes maybe exaggerated, but identity can be a sensitive issue for certain people.
And here you go again whining about some random African Americans that you don't cite by name and show how they have anything to do with any of the artists in this museum exhibit. But because of that, you are arguing that it is perfectly fine for Egypt to promote extremist actions to suppress free expression and speech. That is like me saying because white nationalists post hate speech against Africans on stormfront about Africans, it is OK to ban you and anybody like you on this forum. But this is literally all you do on this forum to try and stifle any serious discussion that you don't like, right, wrong or otherwise. You don't care about facts as that comes from free expression, discussion and analysis of evidence. You just want to push propaganda against Africans as if they have no rights to the same free expression of ideas as anybody else. And the hypocrisy is outrageous as you are sitting here as a European trying to tell Africans what they can and cannot discuss relating to African history. To the point of supporting extremist actions of the Egyptian government trying to do just that.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not endorse any anti black propaganda, what I am opposed of is Black American, ethnocentric individuals who try to cling on to, and steal cultures that are not theirs. Whatever color for example ancient Egyptians had so have still Black Americans nothing with ancient Egypt to do. Most do not descend from that part of the African continent. The true inheritors to ancient Egypt is todays Egyptians and they are also the ones that have the responsibility to care for the part of that heritage which is located in Egypt. The Afrocentric babblers online do not do much for Egypts heritage, more than a lot of talk on the net.
Where is the proof that these African American artists have done anything to provoke Egypt into such actions. Because you haven't shown it. You just keep citing random anonymous African Americans somewhere on the internet as support for this nonsense with no direct evidence of connection to anybody in this exhibition. This is all you do on this forum. The internet is full of all kinds of people with all kinds of ideas, yet you keep citing random individuals as proof all African Americans think and believe the same thing to promote anti-African and anti-black propaganda, with your passive aggressive nonsense. If you cant' prove any direct evidence that these artists did anything to actually justify this kind of response other than simply dressing like or using ancient Nile Valley Africans as artistic inspiration, you yourself are promoting anti-African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Black people can discuss what they like but they have no right to distort history or to claim others heritage as their own with the argument that the progenitors of those peoples allegedly were "black".
How is artistic expression distorting anything? African American artists have a long history of being inspired by many different cultures all over the world. Again, this is you who has had every chance on this forum to discuss and debate facts related to the ancient Nile, trying to use any means to stifle free speech, not because it is necessarily wrong, but because you don't like it. Africans have every right to discuss African history and to sit here and claim that somehow black skin in ancient Africa is somehow not based on evidence and science is simply you promoting anti-black and anti-African propaganda. And this is the reason why the Egyptian government is attacking it, because they have an explicit anti-African and anti-black bias, especially when it comes to the ancient Nile Valley. And this has absolutely nothing to do with facts or evidence and this is exactly what you believe in and are supporting. Because at no time on this forum have you proven to anybody that ancient Africans on the Nile Valley did not create the ancient civilization there, even though you have had every opportunity to prove it. And you haven't. So you resort to simply promoting the suppression of free speech and thought because you don't like it. While claiming every right to express yourself and your nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems many of the online Afrocentrics are more interested in declaring other peoples ancestors black, than to discuss their own West African and Central African ancestors.
Again, attacking anonymous Afrocentrics, because some artist dressed like an ancient African is making up nonsense. How do you know that any of the artists in this exhibition are Afrocentric? You keep trying to make connections with no proof in order to promote this propaganda against freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of speech as somehow justified when it comes to Africans. And then try and claim this is reasonable and acceptable to spew this nonsense on this forum under the guise of free speech and not get called out for it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well, Egyptians have the right to ban anyone they think misrepresents their history. There is nothing you or I can do about it. So just live with it.
Egypt does not have the right to suppress free speech or artistic expression or any other human rights. The fact that you are sitting here arguing it is OK for you to sit here and say this under the protection of "free speech" but don't extend that same right to anybody else is the problem. Because if someone tried to ban you over it, you would go whining and complaining while literally arguing that this kind of suppressing of speech is justified against Africans, with no proof, no nothing, all just because you don't like it. And you have not shown any viable arguments why black Africans did not create the ancient culture in the Nile Valley, all you keep promoting is half truths, innuendo and nonsense.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not say that Africans stole anything from Africa. Black Americans are Americans, and like their white counterparts they also claim others heritage, the difference is that they have no power to realize their claims. They can not go to Egypt or Mexico and claim the ancient ruins or artifacts. But it does not hinder some of them to express such wishes.
Again, this is about artistic freedom of expression and the larger issue of freedom of speech and why you keep sitting here demanding that African Americans right to free speech and expression should be suppressed but yours shouldn't, even if you are wrong as two left shoes. And again, you have no proof or evidence that any of these artists are doing anything more than practicing their right to freedom of expression, while suggesting those rights shouldn't exist.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not tell African Americans what to talk about, I have not that power, but if Egyptians start to ban some African Americans for distorting Egypt´s past, or if Native Americans gets offended by having others trying stealing their history I can understand that.
Again, here we go blaming all the bad things in the world on Africans and African Americans and suggesting that they be suppressed and their rights don't exist because some random anonymous person on the internet said something. I can't believe you are sitting here being serious.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I do not have to prove anything, no people have the obligation to give away their history to cultureless Americans.
Then you have no right to argue that what you are saying is correct unless you can prove it. You haven't shown how these artists and their freedom of expression is an attack on anybody. You haven't shown how ancient Africans couldn't be black in the Nile Valley. All you keep doing is arguing that you have the right under freedom of speech to sit here and attack African Americans and Africans for having ideas that you disagree with, without proving why those ideas are wrong. And you claim that you have that right to be wrong, but nobody else does, even if you haven't shown where in any particular case someone is wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Most African Americans are not Egyptians, have never been Egyptians and will never be Egyptians. Better the Afrocentric extremists online learn to live with that fact and start to take interest in their own history instead of harassing Egyptians (and Native Americans and others) who try to defend their history.
And neither are you so what gives you special rights to discuss and promote Egyptian, Mexican or any other history? Because according to you, only Mexicans should discuss Mexican history, only Europeans should discuss European history and only Egyptians should discuss "Egyptian" history (even though "Egypt" didn't exist before the Greeks). It is all complete hypocrisy because you don't actually believe that because you constantly speak on history that isn't "your" history all the time. You just want to suppress freedom of speech on the part of Africans because somehow you don't want them to talk about "black" people because according to you "black" people are the problem. And if someone calls you out on that BS, the first thing you argue is freedom of speech, while literally saying Africans don't have the right to talk about African history and you aren't an African. Come on dude. And you still haven't shown how any of this is relevant to artistic expression as artists always are influenced by cultures around the world. Which means you also believe African Americans have no right to any kind of expression at all if it promotes "black" people in any way. But according to you, that is perfectly acceptable free speech.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: So how long will they remain African, European or Asian? When will they be American? Never? Or 1000 years from now? So if one should follow that reasoning there are no real Americans, except the Native Americans.
The point is why are you turning a museum exhibit on African American artists and their artistic influences from the Nile Valley into a discussion of ancient history when it is just artistic expression. And why do you constantly feel the need to police and scrutinize expression of Africans over everybody else as if there aren't even more non Africans spewing nonsensical opinions and views all over the internet. I don't understand how you can sit here and argue that hypocrisy and anti African propaganda is legitimate free speech. If you have some proof of these artists doing more than expressing themselves then prove it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: It is not according to me, obviously some Egyptians do not want their traditional culture to be associated with rap or other American pop culture. And they have the right to chose themselves what foreign cultures they will accept or not accept. And as you yourself imply, there are some Egyptians who obviously like and accept rap and similar, while others do not. It is fully up to them to decide. Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African American has.
Again, your whole argument is that Africans don't have the right to freedom of expression because "black" is a problem. And you don't see how that is anti-black and anti-African. And this is completely without any proof or evidence that these artists are actively attacking anybody anywhere. But you claim their rights and freedoms should be suppressed because "black people is a problem. And you literally feel that you have the "right" to promote this kind of suppression of free speech as part of your own free speech rights. Am I correct?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Actually, Egypt do indeed have a Mediterranean coast. They also have very ancient contacts with Mediterranean civilisations.
But there are several groups in Egypt, they are not a monolith, some may identify as Mediterranean, some as Arabs, others as Africans, but most just identify as Egyptians.
And there you go contradicting yourself. So if Egypt is an African country with black Africans in it today, how is it a problem for Africans to claim that there were black Africans on the Nile in the past? And why are you as a non Egyptian and non African sitting here and trying to argue that you have the right to speak about African or Egyptian history, while Africans don't. Again, where is the proof of these artists being influenced and identifying with the obvious ancient African culture of the Nile Valley as a problem? The only thing I see from you is hypocrisy in promoting the idea that African speech should be suppressed because of "black people" being the problem, which is exactly what this response by the Egyptian government is all about. And according to you suppressing the rights of Africans is fine to the point of even you saying it is fine is seen as legitimate free speech and nobody should call you out on it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: In the end Egyptians are the stewards of ancient Egypt and its heritage, they are closer geographically, culturally and probably genetically to ancient Egypt than the majority of African Americans. Most African American armchair historians online have not even been to Egypt, they just think that they are some kind of experts on ancient Egypt. They can of course continue their inane babbling online but Egyptians have no obligation to endorse them or welcome them to Egypt if they do not want to.
Egypt does not have the rights to suppress anybodies freedom of expression or speech just because they may have views they don't like. And the only problem I see that you support suppressing free speech over is "black people" which is the problem you seem to have with African history. And according to you any African who promotes any ideas about "black people" in history deserves to have their rights and freedoms suppressed, because you don't like the idea of "black people" having a history in certain parts of Africa. Am I misunderstanding this?
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quote:And when you do open such threads it is fair game for scrutiny and discussion correct?. This museum exhibit was not created by African Americans nor was it even created in America. Yet you sit here and are trying to use it as a way to attack African Americans. That was the point you keep refusing to address. And just like you have the right to your opinions and express yourself, so do African Americans have the right to do the same, whether you agree with them or not. But instead of simply acknowledging that right, you sit here and attack African Americans whenever they say or do anything you don't agree with as if they don't have the same rights as you do. This is the problem I am pointing out which you keep promoting in almost all of your posts. African American artist freely expressing themselves as Africans are not "attacking" anybody. And for the modern Egyptian government to claim that they are is nothing but extremism, but apparently you are OK with that.
The exhibition was centered around African American and other "black" popular cultures representation of Ancient Egypt. If those artists had not used Ancient Egyptian culture and symbols in connection with their music there would have not been any exhibition. The Egyptians saw it as an exhibition which showed and highlighted African American artists who appropriated Egyptian culture.
So Egyptians obviously saw these artistis work as a way of distorting their ancient past
quote:You don't know me nor what I have and haven't posted about on this forum. And it isn't relevant to you making spam posts on the same topic as a proxy to attack African Americans.
I have read through many older threads, and you have not been especially active in debunking or opposing anti white posts or anti Native American posts. But when someone dares to criticize the behaviour of some African Americans you come whining.
quote:Again, the Egyptian Government knows full well that they do not have the power to attack African American artists and their freedom of expression. That is the entire point. So they are attacking a European museum for exhibiting African American cultural expression and not the African American artists themselves. African American pop culture is one of the biggest exports of the United States and has been for over 100 years, yet according to you attacking the Dutch Museum is somehow not extremism in the slightest. That doesnt even make sense.
Not everyone want their ancient culture to become a part of American pop culture. Identity is important in some countries, especially countries with much longer history than USA. Since the museum showed things that was seen as cultural appropriation they too were targeted by Egypt. And Egypt have maybe no possibility to criticize every single artist who appropriates Egyptian culture, but they can target institutions who encourage it. And since the museum works in Egypt they have the possibility and right to decide over if the museum shall be involved in the handling of ancient Egyptian cultural material.
quote: So you are saying that Egyptians promoting extreme anti-African behaviors is OK.
Every country have their problems. Better Americans solve their own problems instead.There seems to be enough divide in the American society to adress.
quote:That is the problem because it isn't OK. And that is why I keep calling you out because you sit here and complain about African American artists simply dressing up like an ancient Nile Valley African, claiming this is attacking Egyptians when it isnt.
Unfortunately a minority of African Americans try to culturally appropriate culture and history from several other peoples (Israelites, Native Americans and some more), and that ought to be adressed. There are also African Americans who challenge such behaviour and speak out against it. But I do not know if you are one of them?
quote:But when Egypt literally promotes extremist anti-African sentiments and actions, that is perfectly fine. Suppressing free expression and freedom of speech because you don't like it is not "understandable", it is extremist and anti-African. Not to mention African American artists have dressed up like all kinds of different cultures, but only somehow in your mind is it a problem when it comes to the Nile Valley, which is actually IN AFRICA. So you are admitting that the whole point of the thread is to promote extremist anti-African, anti-black, anti-African American propaganda.
Some African Americans (and also Euro Americans) have dressed up in Native American garb, claimed to be the "real" natives and even sold Native inspired handicraft as if it was true Native American cultural products. I have spoken up against such things both here on ES and any more on other platforms.
I do not know the exact purpose of this thread since I did not start it. You can maybe ask the thread starter.
quote:And there you go contradicting yourself. So if Egypt is an African country with black Africans in it today, how is it a problem for Africans to claim that there were black Africans on the Nile in the past? And why are you as a non Egyptian and non African sitting here and trying to argue that you have the right to speak about African or Egyptian history, while Africans don't. Again, where is the proof of these artists being influenced and identifying with the obvious ancient African culture of the Nile Valley as a problem? The only thing I see from you is hypocrisy in promoting the idea that African speech should be suppressed because of "black people" being the problem, which is exactly what this response by the Egyptian government is all about. And according to you suppressing the rights of Africans is fine to the point of even you saying it is fine is seen as legitimate free speech and nobody should call you out on it.
The main point is that African AMERICANS have nothing to do with Egypt or the Nile valley, so regardless the color of Nile valley inhabitants so is not the history of the Nile valley any American business. They can of course be interested and study it, just as Swedes or Japanese can, but they can not claim it as theirs more than any other foreigners can.
Some African Americans even go so far as harassing an Egyptian woman online because she posts pictures of a statue which have not the color that these individuals want to think that ancient Egyptians had. Such behaviour do not improve Egyptians impression of African Americans.
quote: Egypt does not have the rights to suppress anybodies freedom of expression or speech just because they may have views they don't like. And the only problem I see that you support suppressing free speech over is "black people" which is the problem you seem to have with African history. And according to you any African who promotes any ideas about "black people" in history deserves to have their rights and freedoms suppressed, because you don't like the idea of "black people" having a history in certain parts of Africa. Am I misunderstanding this?
Egypt has the right to decide who visits Egypt, who works in Egypt or which foreign cultural products that shall be imported or promoted in Egypt. That is rights most countries have.
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