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Maybe the kind of people like the guy above will never listen to Egyptians and even less to Europeans. Maybe he and his likes will only listen to other African Americans:
And some African Americans are actually making an effort to challenge the most extreme versions of Afrocentrism. One of them is YouTuber Chief X. Here is one of his videos
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Maybe the kind of people like the guy above will never listen to Egyptians and even less to Europeans. Maybe he and his likes will only listen to other African Americans:
And some African Americans are actually making an effort to challenge the most extreme versions of Afrocentrism. One of them is YouTuber Chief X. Here is one of his videos
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One must always take the statements of YouTubers with a grain of salt. None of the above mentioned guys are professional Egyptologists, historians, archaeologists or anthropologists. But still guys like the first one who claims that todays Egyptians do not belong in Egypt and should be expelled, need to be challenged.
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Chief X's also has a couple of videos called were A group nubians Caucasoids/Caucasian?
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Seems the YouTuber ShezmuOperative (the guy mentioned above) has a slight obsession with Kemet Queen (Nora). He made several videos where he attacks her.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [QB] One must always take the statements of YouTubers with a grain of salt. None of the above mentioned guys are professional Egyptologists, historians, archaeologists or anthropologists.
yet you are constantly promoting Nora and Chief X
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A video which discusses the Dutch exhibition in a broader context
quote: Controversy has fallen on an exhibition at the National Museum of Antiquities (Rijksmuseum van Oudheden) in Leiden, Netherlands for its exhibition: Kemet (The Black Lands). The Egyptian Government has banned a Dutch team of archaeologists from continuing their decades-long excavation at the World Heritage site Saqqara, which is served as a burial site from the earliest days of Ancient Egypt and is home to the civilization’s oldest pyramid.
The government’s accusation: “Insulting Egyptian civilization by portraying Tutankhamun as Black” and falsifying history by forwarding Afrocentric pseudohistory about Egyptian civilization being built by Black people. But hold on a goshdarned minute; the Kemet exhibition is about how the image of Ancient Egypt has heavily influenced hip-hop, jazz, soul, and funk music. Well, that doesn’t sound at all like what they’ve been accused of!
Find out in this episode what the power of using the cultural brand of Egypt has to do with emancipation, liberation, resilience, and dreams of the future in the African diaspora, and how the Egyptian government is trying to control what ‘is Egypt’ to promote their power, bring in badly needed tourism money, and ban music called Mahraganat created by the working class that has been associated with the Arab Spring.
The video is made by Dr Paul Edward Montgomery Ramirez a Nicaraguan-American archaeologist and decolonial heritage specialist.
I watched this it was pretty good
Dr. Paul Edward Montgomery Ramírez
Dr. Paul Edward Montgomery Ramírez, an adjunct professor in the Department of Criminology, Anthropology, and Sociology (CAS)(Cleveland State University) and a compliance officer for the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) program, has published a new article, titled 'The Deer and the Donkey: Indigenous Ritual and Survivance in Nicaragua’s El Güegüense.' The article, published in Latin American Research Review, discusses Indigenous resistance against colonization in both history and in modern days. The survival of the indigenous Chorotega culture and spirituality is an under-researched (and to some, controversial) topic.
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quote:Originally posted by Kimbles: Its about dark skinned individuals "appropriating" their history. Don't play dumb..
It has everything to do with "black" Africans. They even do not believe the darker skinned native Egyptians that live in the South are descendants of Ancient Egyptians. It has nothing to do with Americans, please. [/QB]
Their History ? What is the connection between Americans of West African descent and Egypt ?
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Maybe it is not so much about Africans appropriating African history but more about Americans appropriating that history. But I can agree with that they make a difference if Black Americans or White Americans do it.
This thread is about a Dutch museum and has nothing to do with America. But for some reason you keep making these threads and going off the topic to suggest that somehow any and all "backlash" against the idea of black people in the African Nile Valley is somehow legit and historically valid. I mean you are using these threads to attack and or promote random individuals on youtube in trying to fabricate some narrative about Africans not being in African history. None of what you are saying is making absolutely any sense.
The internet is open to anybody and everybody and there is a lot of nonsense and pseudoscience in historical scholarship. But that has nothing to do with this Dutch museum exhibit which is simply about modern pop culture which uses many different historical cultures as inspiration. And the Nile Valley is in Africa so it is absurd to say that Africans have no right to emulate ancient history on the Nile, when it is African to begin with.
And again since this Dutch museum display is about hip hop and black music using elements from the history of the Nile, why isn't appropriation when modern Egypt loves rap music? Sounds like so much hypocrisy to me, because I don't see black people being outraged about it. This discussion is especially dumb when a main component of rap is sampling which can be from music of any culture. So this whole conversation is stupid.
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Archeopteryx is just Lioness with a different name.
Lioness was the first one who used to spam pseudo youtube channels
SOME EXACT M.O.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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quote: Originally posted by Doug M This thread is about a Dutch museum and has nothing to do with America. But for some reason you keep making these threads and going off the topic to suggest that somehow any and all "backlash" against the idea of black people in the African Nile Valley is somehow legit and historically valid. I mean you are using these threads to attack and or promote random individuals on youtube in trying to fabricate some narrative about Africans not being in African history. None of what you are saying is making absolutely any sense.
Of course it has to do with America since the exhibition had several example of African American artists who used all sorts of Ancient Egyptian symbols, artifacts and clothes.
And talking about the net, there you can even find African Americans who want to expel the modern Egyptians out of Egypt as I already shown.
quote: The internet is open to anybody and everybody and there is a lot of nonsense and pseudoscience in historical scholarship. But that has nothing to do with this Dutch museum exhibit which is simply about modern pop culture which uses many different historical cultures as inspiration. And the Nile Valley is in Africa so it is absurd to say that Africans have no right to emulate ancient history on the Nile, when it is African to begin with.
The exhibition was not so much about Africans but much of its content was about African Americans, most of which has lost their authentic connection with their ancestors. Ancestors they anyway would not find in Egypt.
quote: And again since this Dutch museum display is about hip hop and black music using elements from the history of the Nile, why isn't appropriation when modern Egypt loves rap music? Sounds like so much hypocrisy to me, because I don't see black people being outraged about it. This discussion is especially dumb when a main component of rap is sampling which can be from music of any culture. So this whole conversation is stupid.
Not all Egyptians love rap music. At least not by the governing elite. They seem not to like when Ancient Egyptian culture becomes associated with African American pop culture.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Of course it has to do with America since the exhibition had several example of African American artists who used all sorts of Ancient Egyptian symbols, artifacts and clothes.
The Dutch aren't Americans is the point. Apparently you feel that the Dutch putting on this display is an "American issue", when these people are not going directly to any of these artists and telling them not to dress this way. If they really wanted to address America they would have gone to the source would they not?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And talking about the net, there you can even find African Americans who want to expel the modern Egyptians out of Egypt as I already shown.
And what does that have to do with a Dutch Museum presentation about Nile Valley influence on pop culture? Is "expelling modern Egyptians out of Egypt" in that exhibition? If not, why are you including it?
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The exhibition was not so much about Africans but much of its content was about African Americans, most of which has lost their authentic connection with their ancestors. Ancestors they anyway would not find in Egypt.
It isn't about "Africans" but it is about the ancient Nile Valley which is African. So it is about ancient Africans and Africans in America. So what you are saying is that the ancient Nile Valley culture and kingdom was not African and no Africans have any right to identify or emulate it. Which is nothing but anti African and anti black propaganda. And you keep bringing up these threads to promote that propaganda. Because none of what you are saying has anything to do with facts.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Not all Egyptians love rap music. At least not by the governing elite. They seem not to like when Ancient Egyptian culture becomes associated with African American pop culture.
Man stop with your psychobabble. The most popular music in Egypt right now today is rap. Do you hear anybody from America whining and complaining about appropriation? Of course not, because influence in culture is a common thing and not rare or unique. But somehow, modern pop music being influenced by ancient cultures around the world is a problem according to these clowns. And you sitting here defending this nonsense and trying to make it seem legitimate is the problem. And that is just on the level of modern pop culture which has always looked abroad for various influences in contemporary and ancient sources. But beyond that, you want to use this as some kind of proxy argument about what is and isn't African history as if ancient Africans did not populate the Nile Valley and that the NIle Valley isn't part of African history and culture and that Africans should not identify with it. It is the same old debate that has been on this forum for years, but rather than get beat down with facts you want to hide behind these absurd antics about a Dutch Museum exhibit.
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quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa Bey: Archeopteryx is just Lioness with a different name.
Lioness was the first one who used to spam pseudo youtube channels
SOME EXACT M.O.
So we must be the same person just because we do not automatically buy all Afrocentric narratives we hear about?
And I also seen Afrocentric pseudo bs videos being spammed here on ES. Maybe you could complain about them for a while?
and this after me saying that African Americans can say the Egyptians are of the same continents whereas Elizabeth Taylor, Ridley Scott, etc cannot
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The video is made by Dr Paul Edward Montgomery Ramirez a Nicaraguan-American archaeologist and decolonial heritage specialist.
Doug I don't know to what extent Archeopteryx agrees with this but you will probably agree with some of it
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quote: Originally poste by Doug M The Dutch aren't Americans is the point. Apparently you feel that the Dutch putting on this display is an "American issue", when these people are not going directly to any of these artists and telling them not to dress this way. If they really wanted to address America they would have gone to the source would they not?
The Dutch are not Americans, but they made an exhibition about Egypt in American pop culture. Seems to be enough to irritate Egyptians
quote: And what does that have to do with a Dutch Museum presentation about Nile Valley influence on pop culture? Is "expelling modern Egyptians out of Egypt" in that exhibition? If not, why are you including it?
Well such net trolls probably help to stir up certain negative feelings among Egyptians, which further fuels the Egyptian disdain for African American culture
quote:It isn't about "Africans" but it is about the ancient Nile Valley which is African. So it is about ancient Africans and Africans in America. So what you are saying is that the ancient Nile Valley culture and kingdom was not African and no Africans have any right to identify or emulate it. Which is nothing but anti African and anti black propaganda. And you keep bringing up these threads to promote that propaganda. Because none of what you are saying has anything to do with facts.
Africans Americans have mostly no ties to the Nile valley. Most African Americans do not descend from the Nile Valley.
African Americans can of course do what they like, but they can not demand that everyone will approve of it, as many Egyptians obviously not do.
Most African Americans have lost their ties to Africa. You do not become African just because your ancestors came from there centuries ago or you happen to have same skin color.
Or as Chief X (an African American ) says about some African Americans obsession with Egypt or Nubia:
quote:A woman from Cambodia would never call herself an Iranian Queen, being from Cambodia. But Black African Americans with an identity crisis would call themselves a Nubian Queen, when they are really from West and Central Africa. You all see what I am saying? It is a continent, not a country. Everybody else who wasn´t afflicted by the transatlantic slave trade understands this. People on the continent of Asia they don´t all claim each other as one people. It´s not all Asia love. It´s not all that with continental Africans, this is just a thing specifically for Black Americans because we have an identity crisis. We have the confusion
quote: Man stop with your psychobabble. The most popular music in Egypt right now today is rap. Do you hear anybody from America whining and complaining about appropriation? Of course not, because influence in culture is a common thing and not rare or unique. But somehow, modern pop music being influenced by ancient cultures around the world is a problem according to these clowns. And you sitting here defending this nonsense and trying to make it seem legitimate is the problem. And that is just on the level of modern pop culture which has always looked abroad for various influences in contemporary and ancient sources. But beyond that, you want to use this as some kind of proxy argument about what is and isn't African history as if ancient Africans did not populate the Nile Valley and that the Nile Valley isn't part of African history and culture and that Africans should not identify with it. It is the same old debate that has been on this forum for years, but rather than get beat down with facts you want to hide behind these absurd antics about a Dutch Museum exhibit.
All people in the world do not like rap and similar American pop culture. There are more or less conservative people in the world who do not buy into that.
I remember one time when they tried to involve some rap music in a St Lucy celebration here in Sweden, St Lucy is a traditional midwinter ceremony where young girls dress up in white clothes with candles in their hair, and sing Christmas songs, often together with a choir. This specific Christmas some genius came up on the idea to present a rapper who rapped two tunes in the TV sent traditional St Lucy celebration. And the rapper was not black (but an immigrant). Thousands of people got rather upset and wrote to the TV company, wrote articles in newspapers and wrote on the net to protest against what many saw as blasphemy. So no, all people do not love rap and similar variants of American mass culture.
So also in Egypt.
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Marwan Moussa is hungry for more The multi-award-winning Egyptian rapper has millions of fans. He portrays himself as a chill, laid-back guy stumbling into projects. The reality is, he’s got a plan for global success.
quote:When we settle down to talk, Marwan Moussa is in his studio in Maadi, a leafy suburban neighborhood south of Cairo. The studio is in Moussa’s apartment. “It’s just a room,” he says laughing. But the music written and recorded in that room has taken the Egyptian – and by extension Arab and African – rap scene by storm.
quote: Born to a father from Ismaila, on the bank of the Suez Canal, and a German mother, 28-year-old Moussa doesn’t fit the typical profile of an Egyptian rapper. I ask if he takes heat on social media being a middle class kid in a working class environment. He chuckles. “I get s*** for that. People say ‘oh he didn’t struggle’.”
He says his looks made it even easier to fit him into a stereotype, the fact his mother is German and that DNA is visible. Moussa doesn’t go out of his way to build cred through manufactured toughness. He tells the story of a feud he had a few years back, another rapper was coming at him for ‘being soft.’ Moussa responded the only way he knows how, through his music. “At the end of the day, rap wins. He had this persona, he was being hard. All of that. But he couldn’t write a song like mine.
quote:
One of the things he’s doing it winning awards. Lots of them. In January, he took home Best African Rapper, Best Breakthrough Artist and Best Artist in African Hip-Hop at the All Africa Music Awards in Dakkar, Senegal. “It means so much to me, because we are part the continent, but we don’t show it enough. We’re not in touch with our African side enough as North African Arabs,” says Moussa.
quote: Originally posted by Doug M This thread is about a Dutch museum and has nothing to do with America. But for some reason you keep making these threads and going off the topic to suggest that somehow any and all "backlash" against the idea of black people in the African Nile Valley is somehow legit and historically valid. I mean you are using these threads to attack and or promote random individuals on youtube in trying to fabricate some narrative about Africans not being in African history. None of what you are saying is making absolutely any sense.
Of course it has to do with America since the exhibition had several example of African American artists who used all sorts of Ancient Egyptian symbols, artifacts and clothes.
And talking about the net, there you can even find African Americans who want to expel the modern Egyptians out of Egypt as I already shown.
quote: The internet is open to anybody and everybody and there is a lot of nonsense and pseudoscience in historical scholarship. But that has nothing to do with this Dutch museum exhibit which is simply about modern pop culture which uses many different historical cultures as inspiration. And the Nile Valley is in Africa so it is absurd to say that Africans have no right to emulate ancient history on the Nile, when it is African to begin with.
The exhibition was not so much about Africans but much of its content was about African Americans, most of which has lost their authentic connection with their ancestors. Ancestors they anyway would not find in Egypt.
quote: And again since this Dutch museum display is about hip hop and black music using elements from the history of the Nile, why isn't appropriation when modern Egypt loves rap music? Sounds like so much hypocrisy to me, because I don't see black people being outraged about it. This discussion is especially dumb when a main component of rap is sampling which can be from music of any culture. So this whole conversation is stupid.
Not all Egyptians love rap music. At least not by the governing elite. They seem not to like when Ancient Egyptian culture becomes associated with African American pop culture.
There was a trend the was and Afrocentric trend in the 1990s of Afrocentric scholars such as Yosef Ben-Jochannan, John Henrik Clarke, Chancellor Williams Leonard Jeffries, Asa Hillard, Runoko Rashidi, to name few
One of the books popular at the time was George G. M. James' 1954 book, Stolen Legacy
Some of this was reflected in some Hip hop images of the time. Some Hip Hop artist, Michael Jackson, Eddie Murphy were donning Egyptian garb. Nas' "I Am" cover was 1999 but it didn't look that serious to me. These Most artists were not talking it about much and they moved on to other imagery.
This Kemet exhibit at the Rijksmuseum opened April 22, 2023 and is scheduled to continue to September 3
Netflix Queen Cleopatra came out shortly after on May 10, 2023 This caused a controversy as we know
Even though the Kemet exhibit came out earlier than Queen Cleopatra it seems controversy over it came later around may 24, seemingly after the Cleopatra controversy
I wonder if Queen Cleopatra had not come out would there have been as much controversy with the Kemet exhibit. This exhibit has led to Egypt banning the museum from carrying out excavations in Saqqara which they have been doing for 40 years.
Michael Jackson's Remember the Time video came out in 1991. I don't think that caused much if any controversy controversy
The museum ran the exhibit and put real and replica artifacts next to these 90s and 2000s pics of various Hip Hop and R&B artists
This may be what made the show controversial, intermixing modern and ancient in the same show
____________________________In this display is also displays recent book, 2019 ^^
"Aretha was private. I respected this and she trusted me." Linda Solomon met Aretha Franklin in 1983 when she was just beginning her career as a photojournalist and newspaper columnist. Franklin's brother and business manager arranged for Solomon to capture the singer's major career events-just as she was coming back home to Detroit from California-while Franklin requested that Solomon document everything else. Everything. And she did just that. What developed over these years of photographing birthday and Christmas parties in her home, annual celebrity galas, private backstage moments during national awards ceremonies, photo shoots with the iconic pink Cadillac, and more was a friendship between two women who grew to enjoy and respect one another.
The Queen Next Door: Aretha Franklin, An Intimate Portrait is a book full of firsts as Solomon was invited not only to capture historical events in Aretha's music career showcasing Detroit but to join in with the Franklin family's most intimate and cherished moments in her beloved hometown.
They call Aretha the Queen of Soul so I suppose that one reason is why this picture was chosen for the cover. I did a keyword search in the book and it seems that "Egypt" or "Egyptian" is not even mentioned
Egyptian themes in Hip Hop? I would call it a minor trend. You probably could read an entire book on Hip Hop history and not see it mentioned or at most a sentence or two
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@Archeopteryx, I can't remember if I saw this or am just imagining it a statement from the Egyptian Ministry of Antiquities about Netflix Cleopatra or this Kemet exhibit, not a brief Facebook post, something official looking with a letterhead at the top. But I could be misremembering this in some way
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: @Archeopteryx, I can't remember if I saw this or am just imagining it a statement from the Egyptian Ministry of Antiquities about Netflix Cleopatra or this Kemet exhibit, not a brief Facebook post, something official looking with a letterhead at the top. But I could be misremembering this in some way
Maybe it is this statement you mean?
It is about the Netflix Cleopatra documentary.
I quote it here translated to English. In the link below you can see the document in Arabic.
quote:Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities on Thursday
April 27, 2023
- The Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities confirms that Queen Cleopatra had light skin and Hellenistic (Greek) features.
- The effects and statues of Queen Cleopatra are the best evidence of her true features and her Macedonian origins
With reference to the series of documentaries that the “Netflix” platform announced its launch during the coming period, foremost of which is a screening of the movie “Queen Cleopatra” on the 10th of next May, in which its heroine, who plays the role of Queen “Cleopatra VII”, appears with African features and dark skin, he confirmed. Dr.. Mostafa Waziri, Secretary-General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that the appearance of the heroine in this body is a falsification of Egyptian history and a blatant historical fallacy, especially since the film is classified as a documentary film and not a dramatic work, which requires those in charge of its production to investigate accuracy and rely on historical and scientific facts to ensure that history and civilizations are not falsified. peoples.
He added that it was necessary to refer to specialists in archeology and anthropology when making this kind of documentaries and historical films, which will remain a witness to the civilizations and history of nations, pointing out that there are many antiquities of Queen Cleopatra, including statues and depictions on coins that confirm the shape and true features of her. All of which show the Hellenistic (Greek) features of Queen Cleopatra in terms of fair skin, drawn nose and thin lips.
Dr. confirmed. Mostafa Waziri said that the state of rejection witnessed by the film before its screening comes out of a sense of defending the history of Queen "Cleopatra VII", which is an important and authentic part of the ancient history of Egypt, and far from any ethnic racism, stressing full respect for African civilizations and our brothers in the African continent that unites us all. .
As Dr. added. Nasser Makkawi, Head of the Egyptian Antiquities Department at the Faculty of Archeology, Cairo University, said that the appearance of Queen Cleopatra in this film in this body contradicts the simplest historical facts and the writings of historians such as Plutarch and Diocassius, who recorded the events of Roman history in Egypt during the reign of Queen Cleopatra, who confirmed that she was light-skinned and that she had Pure Macedonian ancestry. He pointed out that Queen "Cleopatra VII" descends from an ancient Macedonian family that ruled Egypt for nearly 300 years, founded by King "Ptolemy I", one of the Macedonian leaders in the army of "Alexander the Great", to whom the state of Egypt devolved after the death of "Alexander" and the foundations of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Ptolemy I married Queen Berenice I of Macedonian origin as well, and they gave birth to King Ptolemy II, after whom his sons and grandchildren continued to marry their female sisters according to the customs of this era, until Queen Cleopatra VII and her brother Ptolemy 14 maintained The purity of their Macedonian race during all this time period.
On her part, Dr. said. Samia Al-Mirghani, former Director General of the Center for Research and Conservation of Antiquities at the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that biological anthropology studies and DNA studies that were conducted on ancient Egyptian mummies and human bones confirmed that the Egyptians did not bear the features of sub-Saharan Africans, whether in the shape of the skull, the width of the cheeks and nose, the widening and advancement of the upper jaw, or the shape Al-Zahiri for hair, proportions of body parts, height, distribution and density of body hair. And what we see of a great diversity among the features of the Egyptians is due to the age of the ages of this land and the stability of its inhabitants and their melting of every stranger within their crucible.
She added that all the inscriptions and statues left for us by the ancient Egyptians on the temples and tombs depicted the Egyptians with features as close as possible to the contemporary Egyptians in terms of eye, hair and skin color, the degree of smoothness and density of hair for men and women, and even the color of the skin and the presence of a proportion of colored eyes, which are depicted in some statues of the Old Kingdom. Even when some mummification techniques changed in the 21st Dynasty and they began to paint the mummy's skin to make it look as it was in her first life, they painted the man's skin in brick color and painted the woman's skin in light yellow, which confirms that what was drawn and confirmed on the walls is the truth that the ancient Egyptian recorded about himself. .
As Dr. said. Catharina Martinez, the head of the Dominican mission and a worker at the Taposiris Magna temple in western Alexandria, said that despite the existence of conflicting opinions about her race, it is certain that she was born in Egypt in the year 69 BC of Macedonian origin, pointing out that with reference to the statues and coins left to us by the queen She confirms beyond any doubt her Hellenistic features, which is evident in the bust made of marble preserved in the Berlin Museum from the first century BC, in which she appears wearing a royal wreath, almond eyes, a drawn nose and thin lips, in addition to another bust preserved in the Vatican that shows her With soft features, and a marble head in which she appears wearing a headdress, as well as a number of coins that show her in the same Hellenistic form. ---- Ministry of Tourism
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I was checking for the word "black" and it's not there. I think it's better to leave out since the definition has no standard (although I had heard Hawass use the term recently) I see they put out this statement on Netflix Cleopatra on April 27, 2023 which was before the release date of May 10. They don't mention her name Adele James but seem to have seen it before it's official release. The odd thing is the complaint is of her not looking Greek Also that statement on the 27 is 5 days after the Kemet exhibit on April 22, 2023 but is not about the the Kemet exhibit, it's about Cleopatra I don't know the planning of their comments but they seem to complain about the earlier release of the Kemet exhibit only later after Netflix Cleopatra came out > unless there was some earlier comment in Arabic they released which did not get media coverage until later (?)
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I was checking for the word "black" and it's not there. I think it's better to leave out since the definition has no standard (although I had heard Hawass use the term recently)
Yes they used the expression: "African features and dark skin"
quote:I see they put out this statement on Netflix Cleopatra on April 27, 2023 which was before the release date of May 10. They don't mention her name Adele James but seem to have seen it before it's official release. The odd thing is the complaint is of her not looking Greek Also that statement on the 27 is 5 days after the Kemet exhibit on April 22, 2023 but is not about the the Kemet exhibit, it's about Cleopatra I don't know the planning of their comments but they seem to complain about the earlier release of the Kemet exhibit only later after Netflix Cleopatra came out > unless there was some earlier comment in Arabic they released which did not get media coverage until later (?)
Yes it seems that the Netflix Cleopatra was the igniting spark of the latest debates.
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Another article about the exhibition and the controversy. There is a line from a song written by Nas that I think could irritate one or another modern Egyptian, and others too. It perpetuates the narrative that Europeans destroyed the noses of ancient Egyptian statues to hide that they looked African
quote: Egypt was the place that Alexander the Great went / He was so shocked at the mountains with Black faces / Shot up they nose to impose what basically / Still goes on today, you see?” Weijland points out that this story is consistent with the theory that Europeans “damaged the noses of Egyptian statues in the 19th century to hide their African appearance, but there is no evidence that this was the case.”
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The Dutch are not Americans, but they made an exhibition about Egypt in American pop culture. Seems to be enough to irritate Egyptians.
The point is the Egyptian government aren't attacking Nas, Beyonce, Eddie Murphy or any other black entertainer directly. Because it isn't appropriation and they know they have no case. They are solely attacking the Dutch museum for presenting these entertainers in an exhibit for dressing like ancient Nile Valley Africans. So why are you using this to attack black Americans when the Egyptian government isn't doing it? Obviously the whole point is to promote anti-black propaganda, but even Egypt isn't silly enough to attack Beyonce or Nas directly, because they know they have no legal or ethical argument to make against artistic freedom or in support of appropriation.
All of this in the context of the last 500 years of European outright theft of Africans and African historical and cultural artifacts. And the outright appropriation of African culture as well.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well such net trolls probably help to stir up certain negative feelings among Egyptians, which further fuels the Egyptian disdain for African American culture
No because the Dutch exhibit had nothing to do with any such "internet trolls" and unless you can show or prove that the Dutch museum was influenced by such trolls, you are just trying to form a narrative to discredit actual black scholarship by using random "black trolls". Because you have been on this forum for a while and you havent been able to disprove or beat any actual legitimate scholarship and facts, so you need to make up boogey men to justify your pathetic anti black propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Africans Americans have mostly no ties to the Nile valley. Most African Americans do not descend from the Nile Valley.
African Americans can of course do what they like, but they can not demand that everyone will approve of it, as many Egyptians obviously not do.
Most African Americans have lost their ties to Africa. You do not become African just because your ancestors came from there centuries ago or you happen to have same skin color.
Or as Chief X (an African American ) says about some African Americans obsession with Egypt or Nubia:
Oh so now you are telling black people that they aren't Africans? And who exactly stripped these black people of their African languages, cultural traditions and identity? Last I checked, it was the white Europeans that did this during slavery. So it sounds like to me this is a case of Europeans trying to control the identity of black people by telling them what is and isn't "their" history, what names they can use for their skin color and what they should and shouldn't identify with in history. Because obviously these black people came from Africa, so obviously that makes them Africans. The fact that you would sit here and try to argue otherwise shows that nothing you are saying has any value or merit in any way. Again, nothing but anti-black, anti-African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: A woman from Cambodia would never call herself an Iranian Queen, being from Cambodia. But Black African Americans with an identity crisis would call themselves a Nubian Queen, when they are really from West and Central Africa. You all see what I am saying? It is a continent, not a country. Everybody else who wasn´t afflicted by the transatlantic slave trade understands this. People on the continent of Asia they don´t all claim each other as one people. It´s not all Asia love. It´s not all that with continental Africans, this is just a thing specifically for Black Americans because we have an identity crisis. We have the confusion
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: All people in the world do not like rap and similar American pop culture. There are more or less conservative people in the world who do not buy into that.
Why are you talking about all the world? I posted the facts from Egypt that in 2022 the most popular music on Spotify was rap. If Egypt was so proud and distinct in their culture as "not" Africans, why are they practicing culture from Africans? Somehow you don't want to address the contradiction.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: I remember one time when they tried to involve some rap music in a St Lucy celebration here in Sweden, St Lucy is a traditional midwinter ceremony where young girls dress up in white clothes with candles in their hair, and sing Christmas songs, often together with a choir. This specific Christmas some genius came up on the idea to present a rapper who rapped two tunes in the TV sent traditional St Lucy celebration. And the rapper was not black (but an immigrant). Thousands of people got rather upset and wrote to the TV company, wrote articles in newspapers and wrote on the net to protest against what many saw as blasphemy. So no, all people do not love rap and similar variants of American mass culture.
So also in Egypt.
Totally irrelevant to the facts about either the Dutch exhibit or the popularity of rap in modern Egypt. Like I said, nothing of vale from you but babble about black people stealing other peoples culture and not having any of their own of value, blah blah. And when presented with facts, you duck and dodge like you always do.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Another article about the exhibition and the controversy. There is a line from a song written by Nas that I think could irritate one or another modern Egyptian, and others too. It perpetuates the narrative that Europeans destroyed the noses of ancient Egyptian statues to hide that they looked African
quote: Egypt was the place that Alexander the Great went / He was so shocked at the mountains with Black faces / Shot up they nose to impose what basically / Still goes on today, you see?” Weijland points out that this story is consistent with the theory that Europeans “damaged the noses of Egyptian statues in the 19th century to hide their African appearance, but there is no evidence that this was the case.”
It's beyond ridiculous complaining about a lyrics from a song written 20 years ago in 2003 and the mention of Egypt is not even the theme of the song, it's just a passing remark. The rumor that Napoleon shot off the nose was proven false but to suggest Alexander did it is to suggest something instantly not believable. So it's a just silly lyric not worth mentioning. There is a wiki entry on the song, no mention of it
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The other side of the casket didn't make it to the Kemet exhibit
The particular thing with the Kemet exhibit is that they did not just show the pop music memorabilia with the Egyptian costuming but they have Egyptian artifacts intermingled with it
Was this appropriate to do? I'm not sure
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The point is the Egyptian government aren't attacking Nas, Beyonce, Eddie Murphy or any other black entertainer directly. Because it isn't appropriation and they know they have no case. They are solely attacking the Dutch museum for presenting these entertainers in an exhibit for dressing like ancient Nile Valley Africans. So why are you using this to attack black Americans when the Egyptian government isn't doing it? Obviously the whole point is to promote anti-black propaganda, but even Egypt isn't silly enough to attack Beyonce or Nas directly, because they know they have no legal or ethical argument to make against artistic freedom or in support of appropriation.
All of this in the context of the last 500 years of European outright theft of Africans and African historical and cultural artifacts. And the outright appropriation of African culture as well.
They do not attack Beyonce and the others but they still show what they think about the exhibition and about African American artists dressing up as Egyptians. And they also showed what they thought of the Netflix Cleopatra movie. The two discussions are related.
quote:No because the Dutch exhibit had nothing to do with any such "internet trolls" and unless you can show or prove that the Dutch museum was influenced by such trolls, you are just trying to form a narrative to discredit actual black scholarship by using random "black trolls". Because you have been on this forum for a while and you havent been able to disprove or beat any actual legitimate scholarship and facts, so you need to make up boogey men to justify your pathetic anti black propaganda.
Seems you are unable to see these things in a context. Netflix Cleopatra, the Dutch exhibition, Black American artists that Egypt does not approve of, and even internet trolls are just parts of a larger discussion where Egypt is tired of African Americans (and maybe also other westerners) in different ways using their ancient culture partly for commercial reasons and, as in the Cleopatra case, probably also for some kind of political purposes.
quote:Oh so now you are telling black people that they aren't Africans? And who exactly stripped these black people of their African languages, cultural traditions and identity? Last I checked, it was the white Europeans that did this during slavery. So it sounds like to me this is a case of Europeans trying to control the identity of black people by telling them what is and isn't "their" history, what names they can use for their skin color and what they should and shouldn't identify with in history. Because obviously these black people came from Africa, so obviously that makes them Africans. The fact that you would sit here and try to argue otherwise shows that nothing you are saying has any value or merit in any way. Again, nothing but anti-black, anti-African propaganda.
Well whoever stripped Africans Americans from their historical roots it was not Egyptians. So better African Americans try to find their roots in those parts of Africa their ancestors once came from. Some of the obsession over ancient Egypt seems more or less neurotic.
And how long do a people who live on another continent remain Africans, 200 years, 500 years or more? Most African Americans have never been in Egypt or in other parts of Africa. Most do not talk any African language, most do not practice any traditional African religion, and most do not know more about Africa than anyone else.
Fact is that when it comes to Egypt many more Europeans have been to Egypt than African Americans, yes it would not even surprise me that more Swedes have been in Egypt than African Americans. If African Americans are Africans then white South Africans are also Africans, since they lived in Africa some centuries now, roughly as long as African Americans lived outside of Africa.
quote:Originally posted ]Why are you talking about all the world? I posted the facts from Egypt that in 2022 the most popular music on Spotify was rap. If Egypt was so proud and distinct in their culture as "not" Africans, why are they practicing culture from Africans? Somehow you don't want to address the contradiction.
Chief X, who is himself an African American, is just comparing some African Americans obsessive behaviour with some other peoples who do not obsess over foreign countries in the same way. Seems he sees through some of the Afrocentric Bs and obsessions.
Egypt does not necessarily dislike African culture, but maybe they dislike African American culture, which is not African.
quote: Totally irrelevant to the facts about either the Dutch exhibit or the popularity of rap in modern Egypt. Like I said, nothing of vale from you but babble about black people stealing other peoples culture and not having any of their own of value, blah blah. And when presented with facts, you duck and dodge like you always do.
Totally relevant because it shows that not everyone loves rap, hip hop and similar pop cultural phenomena. In many countries it is a question of societal group, age, class and other factors, which decide who mostly listen to a certain kind of music, or embrace certain cultural expressions and influences.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Archeopteryx can you see the flaw here, modern Egyptians defending the Ptolemies, Macedonian occupiers who dressed up like Egyptians? worried about the sanctity of cultural appropriators?
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posted
Well, in Britain many people are celebrating Romans, dressing up as Romans, studying Roman history and admiring Roman culture even if the Romans occupied Britain for 400 years. Also in Germany romans are popular, even if they also occupied parts of what is today Germany. So Macedonians are a part of Egypts history. African Americans are not.
Egyptians obviously thought that both Netflix Cleopatra and the Dutch exhibition misrepresented Egyptian history and culture. So they reacted on it.
At other occations they have reacted to other films because of different reasons, for example films that showed Biblical figures. They also reacted on films with Israeli actors (for example Gal Gadot) or actors who supported Israel (for example Elisabeth Taylor). I suppose it is up to the Egyptians to decide which films shall be shown in their country or which institutions who shall work there.
There are also some artists who have not been welcome, like rapper Travis Scott which been discussed in another thread:
posted
Some of their complaint is reasonable but it seems combined with an anti-African vibe Elisabeth Taylor was not Greek, yet the complaint about her seems only that she converted to Judaism due to having a Jewish husband
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Some of their complaint is reasonable but it seems combined with an anti-African vibe Elisabeth Taylor was not Greek, yet the complaint about her seems only that she converted to Judaism due to having a Jewish husband
And Gal Gadot was also considered unsuitable to play Cleopatra because she is an Israeli, and has been a member of the Israeli armed forces. She also allegedly made statements which the Egyptians disagreed with.
Egyptians seem overall a bit sensitive regarding what kind of films and other popular culture the people shall be able to take part of. They are also sensitive about their image.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]Some of their complaint is reasonable but it seems combined with an anti-African vibe Elisabeth Taylor was not Greek, yet the complaint about her seems only that she converted to Judaism due to having a Jewish husband
And Gal Gadot was also considered unsuitable to play Cleopatra because she is an Israeli, and has been a member of the Israeli armed forces. She also allegedly made statements which the Egyptians disagreed with.
yes, had she looked exactly the same but not have that political nationality, no complaint about her looks But I'm not sure what would have happened if Netflix Cleopatra had not mentioned "black" and was called a dramatization rather than a documentary yet have kept Adele James and the rest of the actors the same.
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posted
Yes, maybe the Egyptians would not have reacted so hard if it just had been a drama instead of a documentary. And as you say if they had not talked about black, or someone´s grandmother considering the ancient Egyptians black and similar.
Ancient Egyptians have been presented as dark skinned in other films with motifs from Ancient Egypt without modern Egyptians having reacted.
Also, opinions and political climate are shifting and changing. Maybe the narrative of a ´black´ ancient Egypt are not in line with the Egyptian self image right now.
Here are some representations of ancient Egyptians as rather dark skinned, we see images from HBO:s TV series Rome, from the movie The Mummy 2, from Queen of the Damned and from La Reine Soleil. Seems there were not many complaints about these films.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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posted
If there there was a future film on an Egyptian pharaoh made by an American movies company it would reasonable to expect the whole cast to be citizens or people born in Egypt. If a director was to cast Rameses II, based on the art one could argue that a broad featured Sub-Saharan type would not resemble the art. But the same Sub-Saharan type person could be cast as Amenhotep III and it would have reasonable resemblance to the art. Therein lies possible future controversy. People like Chief X just avoid the fact that some Pharaohs in some of the art have "Sub-Saharan features" So one day a director will be more informed and sophisticated than Jada Pinkett-Smith and do some casting of a Pharaoh that the Egyptian ruling class might not like but they would have a hard time complaining about
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: They do not attack Beyonce and the others but they still show what they think about the exhibition and about African American artists dressing up as Egyptians. And they also showed what they thought of the Netflix Cleopatra movie. The two discussions are related.
There is no legitimate reason to attach a museum in a white nation, run by white people who are thousands of miles away from America and the black musicians who made these works. To sit here and claim that this is a legitimate response to actual individual artists is the problem, because it isn't. You seem to keep trying to support these extreme responses exclusively for African artists as if the Nile isn't in Africa and the ancient dynastic Kingdom wasn't an African culture. You seem to believe that because the Egyptian government is behind it, that somehow that makes it legit, when it doesn't. The modern government of Egypt is not ancient and has a constitution that calls itself Arab and Islamic which has nothing to do with the ancient Kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Seems you are unable to see these things in a context. Netflix Cleopatra, the Dutch exhibition, Black American artists that Egypt does not approve of, and even internet trolls are just parts of a larger discussion where Egypt is tired of African Americans (and maybe also other westerners) in different ways using their ancient culture partly for commercial reasons and, as in the Cleopatra case, probably also for some kind of political purposes.
The only context is you trying to legitimize anti African propaganda. Because there is nothing about this action that is anything other than anti-African propaganda. The Egyptian government has no place telling African people who they can and cannot identify with is the point. You somehow seem to feel that it is legitimate to do so. The ancient kingdom of the Nile was African and will always be African. To sit here and claim that the modern "Arab" government of Egypt can somehow claim to represent that African kingdom makes absolutely no sense. The ancient kingdom is gone and hasn't been around for thousands of years and the modern Egyptian government is not a direct continuation of it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Well whoever stripped Africans Americans from their historical roots it was not Egyptians. So better African Americans try to find their roots in those parts of Africa their ancestors once came from. Some of the obsession over ancient Egypt seems more or less neurotic.
Again, we know who stripped the Africans in the Americas of their identity. The point is Europeans are in the wrong in both that historical act and the idea that they can now dictate how those modern descendants should identify. The perpetrators of the crime cannot claim somehow to be the solution when they are the ones who created it. So again, it is still anti-African propaganda to argue that certain parts of African history are "off limits" to Africans. Who the hell are Europeans or the modern "Arab" Egyptian government to tell Africans who they are and what is and isn't their history. This is the part you keep trying to legitimize which is nothing but anti-African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And how long do a people who live on another continent remain Africans, 200 years, 500 years or more? Most African Americans have never been in Egypt or in other parts of Africa. Most do not talk any African language, most do not practice any traditional African religion, and most do not know more about Africa than anyone else.
You know full well this is a dumb question because you aren't talking about an ancient migration of people in prehistoric times. These people are Africans only separated from Africa by a couple hundred years and in many parts of the Americas they still maintain their African heritage and traditions. To sit here and argue that these Africans should not identify as Africans is nothing but anti-African propaganda and anti-African hate. Not only were they stolen from Africa, forced to work for free, but then when they try and reconnect to their historic African roots, they are told they aren't really Africans, by the same people who stole them in the first place. All of which is blatantly against any form of African self identity and sovereignty. Not to mention turning around and saying that these Africans are the problem because they are stealing history from Africa. I mean seriously the lack of shame and dishonesty in all of this knows no bounds.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Fact is that when it comes to Egypt many more Europeans have been to Egypt than African Americans, yes it would not even surprise me that more Swedes have been in Egypt than African Americans. If African Americans are Africans then white South Africans are also Africans, since they lived in Africa some centuries now, roughly as long as African Americans lived outside of Africa.
And now your true stripes come out in claiming that European invaders, colonizers and thieves have more of a right to identify with African history than Africans do and certainly more of a right than the Africans they colonized and stole from Africa. By definition that is the epitome of anti-African hate and propaganda. When the fact is that these invaders throughout their history have always upheld their identity as Europeans and white over everyone they colonized. So to sit here and argue that somehow they see themselves as other than white and European just shows how far you will go to push your anti-African propaganda. Especially when you are arguing that Africans identifyng with African history is wrong but Europeans doing it is perfectly fine and more legitimate than Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Chief X, who is himself an African American, is just comparing some African Americans obsessive behaviour with some other peoples who do not obsess over foreign countries in the same way. Seems he sees through some of the Afrocentric Bs and obsessions.
What does that have to do with the fact that Egyptians have no problem appropriating African American pop culture? See how you completely changed the point when I pointed out how hypocritical this position on the Dutch Museum is? If appropriation and imitating the art and culture of others that you aren't part of is wrong, then why are modern Egyptians doing it? Somehow you just cannot handle the fact that this entire issue is totally nonsense and an extreme form of hypocrisy and anti African propaganda.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Egypt does not necessarily dislike African culture, but maybe they dislike African American culture, which is not African.
Rap IS African American culture and many of the artists in the Dutch Museum exhibit are rappers or part of the rap industry, such as Beyonce who is married to Jay-Z. What you are saying and defending is that non Africans can take and identify with whatever they want in African history,but Africans have to stick to only whatever parts of Africa these non Africans tell them to stick to. All of which is blatantly racist any way you look at it.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Totally relevant because it shows that not everyone loves rap, hip hop and similar pop cultural phenomena. In many countries it is a question of societal group, age, class and other factors, which decide who mostly listen to a certain kind of music, or embrace certain cultural expressions and influences.
Which is you babbling nonsense because I never said that everyone loves rap. I said that rap is the most popular form of pop music in Egypt today. Two different things. You keep trying to use these threads to attack black people at every step, for being black, for being African and on and on as nothing but a continuous stream of anti-black and anti-African propaganda.
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quote: Orininally posted by Doug M There is no legitimate reason to attach a museum in a white nation, run by white people who are thousands of miles away from America and the black musicians who made these works. To sit here and claim that this is a legitimate response to actual individual artists is the problem, because it isn't. You seem to keep trying to support these extreme responses exclusively for African artists as if the Nile isn't in Africa and the ancient dynastic Kingdom wasn't an African culture. You seem to believe that because the Egyptian government is behind it, that somehow that makes it legit, when it doesn't. The modern government of Egypt is not ancient and has a constitution that calls itself Arab and Islamic which has nothing to do with the ancient Kingdom.
Doug, are you at all contributing more to this thread than just whining? Seems you are just here to complain.
But back to the question, the museum made a exhibition about mostly American black pop culture and its use of Egyptian symbols, clothes and similar. So the subject was about American pop culture. Egyptians obviously do not like to have their history associated with certain kinds of American pop culture. Is that hard to understand? If you have problem with it so write to Egyptian authorities and complain. They maybe not read posts here on ES.
quote: The only context is you trying to legitimize anti African propaganda. Because there is nothing about this action that is anything other than anti-African propaganda. The Egyptian government has no place telling African people who they can and cannot identify with is the point. You somehow seem to feel that it is legitimate to do so. The ancient kingdom of the Nile was African and will always be African. To sit here and claim that the modern "Arab" government of Egypt can somehow claim to represent that African kingdom makes absolutely no sense. The ancient kingdom is gone and hasn't been around for thousands of years and the modern Egyptian government is not a direct continuation of it.
You seem paranoid, you see anti African and anti Black conspiracies everywhere. Not only in this contexts, judging from other posts you seem to see it in many scientific papers and studies too.
Egyptian government has no obligation to endorse American commercial mass culture that uses ancient Egyptian symbols or clothes for commercial or political purposes..
And they have no reason to satisfy Black Americans who try to attach themselves to the culture of a country many of them never visited or have any ties with.
quote: Again, we know who stripped the Africans in the Americas of their identity. The point is Europeans are in the wrong in both that historical act and the idea that they can now dictate how those modern descendants should identify. The perpetrators of the crime cannot claim somehow to be the solution when they are the ones who created it. So again, it is still anti-African propaganda to argue that certain parts of African history are "off limits" to Africans. Who the hell are Europeans or the modern "Arab" Egyptian government to tell Africans who they are and what is and isn't their history. This is the part you keep trying to legitimize which is nothing but anti-African propaganda.
That is irrelevant, Egyptians do not owe African Americans to be a playground for their racial dreams and fantasies, or letting them use that culture for their own purposes.
The modern Egyptian government do not owe Black Americans anything. It is their land and their culture and if they protest against foreigners using their cultures for their own purposes it is up to them. Maybe if Black Americans stubbornly continue to use Egypt´s ancient culture, or force their American racial perspectives on Egyptian culture, maybe more of them will be banned from Egypt.
quote:You know full well this is a dumb question because you aren't talking about an ancient migration of people in prehistoric times. These people are Africans only separated from Africa by a couple hundred years and in many parts of the Americas they still maintain their African heritage and traditions. To sit here and argue that these Africans should not identify as Africans is nothing but anti-African propaganda and anti-African hate. Not only were they stolen from Africa, forced to work for free, but then when they try and reconnect to their historic African roots, they are told they aren't really Africans, by the same people who stole them in the first place. All of which is blatantly against any form of African self identity and sovereignty. Not to mention turning around and saying that these Africans are the problem because they are stealing history from Africa. I mean seriously the lack of shame and dishonesty in all of this knows no bounds.
Most African Americans have no real cultural contact with Africa or any cultural continuity anymore. And especially with Egypt which lies in a different part of Africa than the one many African American descend from. Seem some Americans think they own the whole world just because they had ancestors who came from other places hundreds of years ago.
quote: And now your true stripes come out in claiming that European invaders, colonizers and thieves have more of a right to identify with African history than Africans do and certainly more of a right than the Africans they colonized and stole from Africa. By definition that is the epitome of anti-African hate and propaganda. When the fact is that these invaders throughout their history have always upheld their identity as Europeans and white over everyone they colonized. So to sit here and argue that somehow they see themselves as other than white and European just shows how far you will go to push your anti-African propaganda. Especially when you are arguing that Africans identifyng with African history is wrong but Europeans doing it is perfectly fine and more legitimate than Africans.
Well, people who live in Africa are more African than people who never sat their foot in Africa or can talk any African language, or have no connection to Africa more than genetics and skin tone.
This regardless of skin tone.
quote: What does that have to do with the fact that Egyptians have no problem appropriating African American pop culture? See how you completely changed the point when I pointed out how hypocritical this position on the Dutch Museum is? If appropriation and imitating the art and culture of others that you aren't part of is wrong, then why are modern Egyptians doing it? Somehow you just cannot handle the fact that this entire issue is totally nonsense and an extreme form of hypocrisy and anti African propaganda.
It is not anti African propaganda, African Americans are not Africans anymore, they are AMERICANS. They have not so much to do with Africa anymore, and especially not with Egypt. That some Egyptians chose to listen to American music is not the same as using traditional, ancient Egyptian culture for commercial purposes, or as they did in Netflix Cleopatra claiming that historical Egyptian figures had a certain skin color. Egyptians do not claim American history.
quote: Rap IS African American culture and many of the artists in the Dutch Museum exhibit are rappers or part of the rap industry, such as Beyonce who is married to Jay-Z. What you are saying and defending is that non Africans can take and identify with whatever they want in African history,but Africans have to stick to only whatever parts of Africa these non Africans tell them to stick to. All of which is blatantly racist any way you look at it.
Yes rap is African American culture that has not much to do with Egypt or ancient Egyptian culture. Rap has no real connection with Egypt or traditional Egyptian music.
quote: Which is you babbling nonsense because I never said that everyone loves rap. I said that rap is the most popular form of pop music in Egypt today. Two different things. You keep trying to use these threads to attack black people at every step, for being black, for being African and on and on as nothing but a continuous stream of anti-black and anti-African propaganda.
Rap is maybe popular among certain segments of the population, but not all. It is a matter of class, education, age and other factors, who likes certain music styles or who embraces certain cultural expressions.
Those Egyptians who happen to like rap music are not necessarily the same people who protest against he Dutch exhibition, or who wants to ban certain rappers to perform in Egypt.
One thing is sure, todays Egyptians are more Egyptian than most African Americans. They are also more African than most African Americans.
Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African Americans have.
Here is a film that can be a reminder of some of the ties todays Egyptians have with Ancient Egypt
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If there there was a future film on an Egyptian pharaoh made by an American movies company it would reasonable to expect the whole cast to be citizens or people born in Egypt. If a director was to cast Rameses II, based on the art one could argue that a broad featured Sub-Saharan type would not resemble the art. But the same Sub-Saharan type person could be cast as Amenhotep III and it would have reasonable resemblance to the art. Therein lies possible future controversy. People like Chief X just avoid the fact that some Pharaohs in some of the art have "Sub-Saharan features" So one day a director will be more informed and sophisticated than Jada Pinkett-Smith and do some casting of a Pharaoh that the Egyptian ruling class might not like but they would have a hard time complaining about
The best is if they could cast Egyptian actors in leading roles, then Egyptians could at least not say that Americans are letting foreigners portrait Egyptian historical persons. To think about concerning future films is also to try to avoid provoking trailers with American grandmothers talking about ancient Egypt. Best also to consult Egyptians for the film, so they can feel involved in a film about their own history.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The best is if they could cast Egyptian actors in leading roles, then Egyptians could at least not say that Americans are letting foreigners portrait Egyptian historical persons.
what Egyptian actor could they cast for him?
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