It is wonderful to be in love. to be in trouble, however, is not nice.

Learning about your beloved's culture is one of main essentials for a successful relation.

Your Egyptian moslem lady should know that very well.
My British husband and I did not have this ache, as we both decided that he will convert prior to seeing my family.

Once, it happened, the base was already lined for the next step ( knowing each other away from the net business ) before you both get any serious ( really serious ).

Why do not you just go to Egypt, meet your lady face to face, spend time with each other ( but not deeply, for her sake ) then decide what to do next.

* There are tw things you can not do with a Moslem woman:
1- Having sex out of the wedlock.
2- Marrying her as a non moslem.

Once you have passed your first test, I do not believe it will then be difficult on her family to accept you.

Good luck, & enjoy Egypt and her people.

Just another question: No nice and interesting girls around in your neighborhood? Its much easier you know.

Salama said it perfectly: no sex (she can't share your room at the hotel anyway) and no marriage as long as you are not a Muslim. Any muslim girl knows that, so she knows from the beginning she's playing with fire.

Did she talk to you about Islam, did she teach you a few things about it? You have been knowing her for three years so I think you had time to learn a little about Islam.
As Salama says, take your time, meet the girl, and I am sure you will know what to do when you come back to the US, things will be clearer.
If the family really knows about you, they will never let you see her while you are there, she will have to lie all the time to date you.

Just in case you do not, we have a culture. One that differentiate between a girl and a woman.…!
No, her family is very obviously not a lax, never, otherwise they would hitch the girl up, and goodbye baby.

I bet in your honour that the first question they ask if the guy is a moslem?

To bunk in an Egyptian hotel needs a good deal of tricks, so they are not seen together in one room, or even getting out or entering a hotel together.

The girl will get married sooner or later, she will be discovered and blamed to the rest of her life. You cannot get away with these things, Never.

I advise the man to convert, which takes him a few minutes of his life. then the relationship between him and the creator is not our business, and then marry his girl and fly away.

It is the girl who will loose her family, unless a great effort takes place at the earliest stage.

Never, if you wish to piss me off, please do choose the right place.

She will be doing the same and if she's not, then take a closer look at her and question that, because that should be 2nd nature to her. Western relations etc are totally doable in Egypt, but one always puts on a facade for the hotel staff.

That said, it never fails to amaze me how two people who only type to each other manage to "fall in love." Whatever to that. But add in a different culture and now you're just in dream land. I would strongly suggest you rethink your perspective on this visit and instead of thinking whether or not there's chemistry between you (BEFORE you jump to the fiance thing!)... go over there as a friend and dip your toe in the proverbial waters.

All the stuff about visas that is said about the men here DOES also apply to women too.

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Originally posted by salama:
Never, if you wish to piss me off, please do choose the right place.

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My culture does not encourage urination on the boards nor in forums.

Anyway, can't they do an Orfi also?? Plus, Cairo is a big city and many have mentioned that you can get away with much more there than in any small conservative place? Although it is easier of course when the man is egyptian, girl is white, because the chances that a white man is muslim or egyptian girl is not, are probably too small to even consider.

Anyway, please give advice to the serious young person here, the ones who live there and know of things, and stop playing god. Give them the optins, let THEM decide how they spend their sinful lives - happily or unhappily. Be friends, not judges.

Well, we went to his room after I put the kids to bed (my husband was watching them) and talked a little and sometime then my friend received a phone call and was asked what was going on, why he would have a foreign female tourist up in his room.

Little then we realized that a cleaning guy saw us entering his room and also we left the curtains open as we didn't have anything to hide.

So just to give you an idea of how things are in Egypt. I was very upset about the incident (and let my husband call up the reception immediately ) but it reminded me where I was again. And I didn't wanted to get my friend in any kind of trouble so we left to outside again.

I said this couple of times here on this board but its true: Everything has eyes and ears in Egypt, even the doors and the walls......

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
All I wanted to know is can we be together and enjoy each others company in a public setting without judgement.

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You can have a coffee with her somewhere but thats about it - its as simple as that.

I agree with other posters you should go and meet her in person if the picture of what you have of her is matching the reality and you really want to push forward for marriage.

Now the religion thing is another issue. Atheists are able to convert to a religion, usually when something life-changing happened to them or when they become older. You need to convert to Islam if you want to marry her - how you will practice it is another issue. You both will have to figure it out.

I hope everything will turn out great for you and your Egyptian woman, good luck!

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Originally posted by newcomer:

Basically if this woman agrees to marry you she is committing a sin as a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man by Islamic law, as you know.

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So what will/can happen, realistically and in this world, if she will choose to live in this "sin" of love?

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Originally posted by newcomer:

but actually it is not only sex itself that is forbidden, so is being alone with a man without a chaperone in a private place and any type of physical contact, no matter what your long term intentions are. B]

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So would this also apply if I was a Muslim man? Does a Muslim man have to be chaperoned and is forbidden to make any type of Physical contact with Muslim women?

Besides If i'm seen alone with her while I'm there, how would anyone know that she's Egyptian. Why wouldn't they think we are both tourist? She could be mistaken for an Italian girl.

You appear to truly love your girl. What is holding you from converting, you already have read Islamic book .. go ahead before it is too late.
Marry girl before God and people. Then make peace with her family.
You will better once you done the right thing

Yes, as the other imposter ( ? ) said, you can walk about and have innocent fun, eat and drink and talk in public, but there will be no need taking her to a hotel.
Is not great to keep her fresh,for later?

The rules are the same for Muslim men as for Muslim women, how could it be otherwise? Basically neither a Muslim man or a Muslim woman are allowed any sexual contact or be alone with any one of the opposite sex until after marriage, and no physical contact either, unless the person happens to be a close blood relative, e.g. their mother, sister, grandmother, and a few others listed in the Qur'an. I am not saying that everyone adheres to all the rules, as in any other society, but if Muslims break the rules they risk the consequences in this world or the Hereafter.

As to whether people will know that she is Egyptian, even if people physically look like they could be from another country, there are tell-tale signs like the way someone dresses, walk, sits, holds themselves, moves their hands that give an indication of where they come from, and that is all before they open their mouth to speak.

The Issue is, deep inside my inner beliefs would conflict with some of the rules of Islam. I wouldn't feel true to it or myself. There are some basic human rights and choices that would be taken away from me, and I believe woman should have all the same rights and respect as men.

i am an Egyptian woman who is married to a British convert, and like me 1000's of moslem women here in the UK plus these women who are converting every day.
Do you really think these women are stupid enough to convert to Islam with the knowledge that their human rights are taken away?
Here goes again, a moslem woman has more rights than a woman of any other faith on earth. My money that given to me or I made is my own, my husband money and properties are as much as his are also mine and the household. I may choose to share all or some of my money with him. I may not.… This is my faith.
Education and work are not luxury for a moslem person (man or a woman) they are essential in the Islamic faith. indeed the first word in the Holy Quran is LEARN.

In Islam, a man and a woman have different duties matching perfectly our physical and mental abilities and differences.

What you hear in the west springs from the western Islmophobia that the west is sickened with.

gobi79harry, I completely agree with you, you should not convert to Islam for the sake of marriage, unless you are completely convinced that it is the right thing for you; it is not something to be undertaken lightly. But as salama says, the view that many westerners are given about women’s position in Islam is a biased one, and many women are coming to Islam because they see that it offers them more respect and dignity than the western concepts of womanhood. Try to read more about this issue from different perspectives, not just the western/negative ones to get a fuller picture.

quote:

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Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]In Islam, a man and a woman have different duties matching perfectly our physical and mental abilities and differences.
What you hear in the west springs from the western Islmophobia that the west is sickened with.

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There is a lot of islamophobia indeed, or rather, there is a lot of any kind of phobia I think peole get some kind of kick from having a pet phobia so they are always eager to have something .

But, salama, you are yourself the very best example of what islam does with women--it makes you believe men and women are different physically AND, as you say, mentally.

I even share this view in that i also believe that men as a rule are physically stronger while women as a rule are mentally more capable (it can be noticed from the way we instinctively adapt much more easily than men, we learn by seeing and listening, which men never do, they need to be specifically trained to understanding)
AND since the world is giving more and more physical work over to machines, the humans are moving upwards all the time to more mental tasks and jobs and thus the future is all about women and our capacities to lead and manage the world. Now how has islam prepares you, salama, to these tasks? Do you even have right to participate in decisions about your own country, e.g. by becoming a politician, or even giving a vote???

Second thing. Many muslim girls who will not have sex before marriage do everything but the clinical definition of intercourse and are far from inexperienced. But they would swear to their grave that they are pure virgins simply because they've stopped at V penetration.

So as you can see, there are many shades of grey between the black and white but there's no way for us advise you about it. It depends not only on her individual personality but where she's from, how she was raised, class system, etc.

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Originally posted by newcomer:
The hotel would ask to see her ID and that would show her religion. If people want to break the rules, they can do it, of course they can, but this man is asking what the rules and social conventions are.

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But religion on ID... that's pretty strong in a country where people also treat you based on your religion. Never in my life, living in my country here, have i had reason to ponder how big things freedom to freely decide about yourself, and safety of person, really are. Though we efficiently spoil the heaven by a lot of small bickering and bad character but anyway

And orfi is exactly a kind of "social convention" after all?, its not completely holy but is is still a middleway. And I am not hinting they NEED to sleep with each other or anything, and besides you don't even plan such things or do you? Let me at least hope, dear men, that not always, OK? That sometimes it is also a pure natural getting-carried-away-by-your-senses thing, what developes when you meet in person?

I just want to discuss all possibilities that are in theory or practice available to any such mixed couples. This is why the ExptinCAI type of explanations are the best kind on this forum--they do not try describe things the way people wish things were (Koran then would be a better source) they describe reality.

Sorry but her family wouldn't abandon her EVER because she's fallen in love with some guy on the internet.

If they thought she was losing it, they'd unplug her computer and pressure her into marrying a nice muslim egyptian boy FULL STOP. They wouldn't abandon her. Especially when you're so far away and you two never met! They'd look at it as her being a silly girl in puppy love and dismiss it.

Again, I can't stress that enough because the way you wrote it, it doesn't sound right.

Salama wont to convert us all if she could she don't care if u be a hypocrite muslim like her.Aslong u muslim she like numbers.

Another thing is "your love" are maybe circumced so it easy for her to wait for sex until married (pasport money out of powerty)As Salama alredy toll u the first rules they liek -MONEY
salama say:
My money that given to me or I made is my own, my husband money and properties are as much as his are also mine and the household. I may choose to share all or some of my money with him. I may not.… This is my faith

quote:

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
PS- I really do not buy that her family abandoned her and that 'you're all she's got.' And here you come the white knight waving the visa in hand to the rescue.

What I have told you about her abandonment is true. Who do you think has been paying her rent and giving her money for food. Me! Not saying that it's been every month, but the unemployment in Egypt has not helped.

[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 15 May 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
PS- I really do not buy that her family abandoned her and that 'you're all she's got.'
because the way you wrote it, it doesn't sound right.

[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 15 May 2005).]

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I agree completely with expt!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
PS- I really do not buy that her family abandoned her and that 'you're all she's got.' And here you come the white knight waving the visa in hand to the rescue.

Sorry but her family wouldn't abandon her EVER because she's fallen in love with some guy on the internet.

If they thought she was losing it, they'd unplug her computer and pressure her into marrying a nice muslim egyptian boy FULL STOP. They wouldn't abandon her. Especially when you're so far away and you two never met! They'd look at it as her being a silly girl in puppy love and dismiss it.

Again, I can't stress that enough because the way you wrote it, it doesn't sound right.

[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 15 May 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
What I have told you about her abandonment is true. Who do you think has been paying her rent and giving her money for food. Me! Not saying that it's been every month, but the unemployment in Egypt has not helped.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
An Egyptian girl living alone?
Which social class does she belong to?

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Or rather which fairy tale does she belong to?

Do we have a rare case of an Egyptian girl ripping of a Western man? Or is this even a girl or someone using an internet personality? GB you have been had for a mug, the kind of girl you are describing doesn’t exist in Egyptian society.

Single girls living on their own. Muslim girls that have internet romances with non Muslim men. She is unemployed but has good enough English to have a relationship with you. None of this makes any sense to me.

Regarding some of your other posts.

The reason a Muslim girl can only marry a Muslim man is because children take the religion of the father. A Muslim man can marry a ‘woman of the book’ Jew, Christian or Muslim and the children would be Muslims and belong to the father. Nothing to do with her “converting to your ways”

As the others have said Islam gives women more rights rather than take them away.
.

In three years of discussion you have never covered these points, and you know nothing about her culture, seems to me that not very much was said in those three years, certainly anything of any depth.

Like I said I don’t think this woman is real, I think if you arrived in Cairo she wouldn’t turn up at the meeting. How much money have you sent her so far?

Now someone mentioned the children have to follow the fathers choice of religion. That is completely not true. When I so support freedom of choice , why would I say "hey kids you must believe what daddy thinks is right" B.S. They are their own beings, I don't care what they choose to believe , it's their choice not mine. If my kids wanted to be buddist it wouldn't bother me one bit. It doesn't have to be the way you say it is people. Everyone has choice. It's your lives. Live it how you please , cause it's over so fast. oops , there it is ... it's gone.. did you get everything done... are you full- filled.. ahhhh too late. Because in the end people we all die. But how we live and if we enjoyed the life we have been given.. is all that really matters.

Now onto rights.
I'm not an expert in this matter, seeing i'm not a muslim and i am not coming off thinking I know everything. But for one , and this is not a big deal , BUT IT IS A CHOICE that can no longer be partaken in is your choice if you would like to have an alcoholic beverage or not. I don't really care much for alcohol but it's the principle of the thing. I for one don't like anyone telling me what I can and can not do. Even if like i said don't really even care. It's my basic human right of choice. And you should be able to take it as far as you want (within reason of not hurting others)

i even know couples from other middle eastern countries who came as expats to cairo (she muslim, he christian) and her new 'friends' tried to tell her she will go to hell and her child is a bastard.

quote:

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I'm not trying to be stubborn about it, and I'm not acting like "I don't want to be Muslim just because..." That's not the issue at all. Infact I have even thought about it. The only reason why I would convert , would be for her, because I love her so very much. The Issue is, deep inside my inner beliefs would conflict with some of the rules of Islam. I wouldn't feel true to it or myself. There are some basic human rights and choices that would be taken away from me, and I believe woman should have all the same rights and respect as men. I haven't seen that in Islam. I have not completely made up my mind on the subject but for now this is how I feel.

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truly i know you know nothing of islam....since reading a few books doesnt give u a sound insight to the religion..

Societies..such as epyt and Religion such as Islam...are two differnet entities....

The key reason is logical...you absolutely need no understanding of islam or for that matter any religions....

Biologically...man is not = women......fact 1
psycologically females are the "emotional" sex.... fact 2

ect..ect//////

logic...women in all modern societies are socially unequal to there male counterparts..

In the context of religion now....

Islam states

socially females=males....

As modern science is consistant with Islam

physically....biologically....psycologically

However you prove a greater threat....Since you have no Belief of a Higher being...

which tips the scale

spirtually you would damage her already ill faith..

mixing fire with canol oil...perfect for a bomb fire....

Since as any sound individual knows...you have a direct influence on the other indvidual...which is unfortunately a female

this comes into a sociological context where influence in this relationship is not balanced ...as balance in any ancient and modern society is key...

when it comes to believers vs non believers..

it comes back to psyc

Since a family is a vital structure in society....

One that is confused....can Damage he structure whereby ...can indirectly lead to medical and othere illness indirectly...depression stress ect. ect.

Islam is the only religion in the entire world...that does not segregate or colorist...

The only religion where blacks=white=arabs=colored ect...

in the eyes of a sing higher being,,god,,male and females are equivalent in judgement....

Since your reasons are not legit...

you want t meet her to kiss cuddle ect a "real" relationship...

If you understand the basics of any religion there is good and evil..

in islam its manifested as good God and any relations with him and Evil the devil

Since kissing cuddling and padding leads to you no what thats associated with evil...why you ask

Since the person you are intimate..kissing cuddling..is intimacy..is Not in the Eyes of God...Yours...the makes complete sense in the context of Islam...

That is a reason why pubicint men and pubicint women are not allowed to be in the company of each other alone...As the "devil whispers"...

im not going to go on since its clear where i stand ....

Advise......

Quote

Atheist dont believe in G-o-d....
God doesnt believe in Atheist!!!

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
Well, I see your point. However I won't be having my children in Egypt. I will be in the United States. And as far as my children being bastards that are going to hell. That's only the religious veiw of the matter. Is there a hell, or does all matter return to nothing from wence we came? Who knows? We'll see at the last moment won't we. but in the end , it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. Just be thankful you had a chance to live.

[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 15 May 2005).]

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Amazing ...I overlooked this Quote...

Since i Proved proof ...unfortunately youre offspring are going to be caught between the cross fire....

Fortunately Americas....are integrate Christianisty and State together.... The only way you may be togther is to go throught a COMMONN LAW MARRIAGE...lol

Since MARRIAGE is a UNION....which predates any modern religion.....is directly asscociated with pre historic Religions...

In the eyes of there deities or gods....

SO MARRIAGE HAS NO MEANING TO YOU....SINCE THE BELIEF IN ANY HIGHER BEING IS GONE....

WHY ADOPT A CULTURE OR TRADTION THAT PAYS TRIBUTE TO GODS/ A GOD

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Originally posted by mali:

SO MARRIAGE HAS NO MEANING TO YOU....SINCE THE BELIEF IN ANY HIGHER BEING IS GONE....

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It's not how you NAME it, it's how you LIVE it my dear. Cohabitation is cohabitation name it what you wish and is not about the PAPER or to whom you tell about it, but is about how you treat each other and whether both gain from the union.

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Originally posted by nevermind:
It's not how you NAME it, it's how you LIVE it my dear. Cohabitation is cohabitation name it what you wish and is not about the PAPER or to whom you tell about it, but is about how you treat each other and whether both gain from the union.

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