quote:

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Originally posted by nevermind:
It's not how you NAME it, it's how you LIVE it my dear. Cohabitation is cohabitation name it what you wish and is not about the PAPER or to whom you tell about it, but is about how you treat each other and whether both gain from the union.

A homework for all dear muslims here: how do you think the rest of the world love and die happily, the 5.5 billion something people, with all their different gods and their prophets and some even totally godlessly. Do you really imagine you are this only group of chosen, illuminated people, the onely ones with hope? I wish I could enjoy self-evaluation of that level except I do not find any happiness in thinking I am better and so many others are worse off, I'd much rather believe we are all together pretty well off if know to live wisely and care also about the next person beside us, not just ourselves.

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ditto From a muslim

quote:

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mali:
[B].
SO MARRIAGE HAS NO MEANING TO YOU...

Marriage has more meaning than just being apart of a religious practice. It's about sticking together and raising a family. Strange how you are unaware of this most important fact. hmmmmm

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Once again, you are the one who doesn't want to understand. You were asking about the rules here in Egypt, we tell you, but you reject them. Marriage doesn't have the same meaning here and there, sorry to tell you. Open your eyes, you want to marry an Egyptian, not an American. And it's not a matter of living here or there. If your GF really exists, she will always be an Egyptian, she has been raised in this culture, she is a part of it.

Yes of course , i've seen many pictures. I have even received a care package in the mail containing actual photos, and other gifts. The times i've sent money it has been around $100 or little more. She was going to university but had to drop out for health reasons. But I will not mention her where abouts and living conditions to strangers. And I won't mention anymore personal information about her. It's not my life story to give out and besides I don't want any harm to come to her.

quote:

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by UTsarah:
[B]this does seem like an elaborate internet scam. how come you won't answer the questions aboutwhat money you sent and where? you call her in egypt, is it a cell phone or a home phone? do you pay for her calls? where did she attend school, have you seen any pictures of her and her family, ect. ? if its actually legitimate it should be easy to explain, and those on here who know will tell you.

Yes of course , i've seen many pictures. I have even received a care package in the mail containing actual photos, and other gifts. The times i've sent money it has been around $100 or little more. She was going to university but had to drop out for health reasons. But I will not mention her where abouts and living conditions to strangers. And I won't mention anymore personal information about her. It's not my life story to give out and besides I don't want any harm to come to her.

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you know what dude...do whatever you want..we have tried to give you some of the things that might be the real truth..but in the end its up to you..

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Originally posted by RaniaMe:
Once again, you are the one who doesn't want to understand. You were asking about the rules here in Egypt, we tell you, but you reject them. Marriage doesn't have the same meaning here and there, sorry to tell you. Open your eyes, you want to marry an Egyptian, not an American. And it's not a matter of living here or there. If your GF really exists, she will always be an Egyptian, she has been raised in this culture, she is a part of it.

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Serendipity, I don't know what to think anymore. I still wish to hold onto what I know to be true, but yes you and a few others have made good points. I never wanted to take this to the level of agrueing religion , because that is not the issue. We all went of on a tangent and I (for awhile) felt like I was being attacked. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here in the first place. All it has done is depress and confuse me more. (and Added more fear to my trip) I know that this all doesn't seem right to most , but maybe this is a special case. It all seems like a bizare twist of romeo and juliet. Lets hope it doesn't end the same way. "A Curse on both your houses"

You asked about the rules here, you have them now: you can't take her hand, kiss her, see her at night.

You are talking about getting married, we tell you the rules as well: no marriage as long as you are not a muslim.

Someone kindly told you it's almost impossible to make her come that easy to the US, you don't want to face the truth, and still keep talking about the fact you will marry her in the US. When she's going to ask for her visa at the embassy and tell them she has an American fiance, she will be refused. Just like that. It happens for the US, but it will be the same in any embassy. Not the right time for emigrating or just travelling when you are an Arab. How humiliating.

You say she has been abandonned by her family, we tell you here it's IMPOSSIBLE to see something like that here. You say she's living alone, you get the same answer.

We don't know you, and we only answered you according to what you said, and according to all our previous experiences.

quote:

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:

Serendipity, I don't know what to think anymore. I still wish to hold onto what I know to be true, but yes you and a few others have made good points. I never wanted to take this to the level of agrueing religion , because that is not the issue. We all went of on a tangent and I (for awhile) felt like I was being attacked. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here in the first place. All it has done is depress and confuse me more. (and Added more fear to my trip) I know that this all doesn't seem right to most , but maybe this is a special case. It all seems like a bizare twist of romeo and juliet. Lets hope it doesn't end the same way. "A Curse on both your houses"

[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I only asked about the rules for when i'm there. And I wasn't asking about the rules of marrige, i was asking the rules of dateing and relationship acceptance. I know marrige has different meaning in these two places, I told you i'm only concerened about the United States in regards to marrige. Of course she will always be Egyptian, what else, she's not going to roll up in a cacoon and turn into a German? don't be silly! I'm not trying to take anything away from her. I'm only fighting this silly rule that i have read on a muslim website by a muslim that states Allah is not intirely clear on the matter of a muslim woman with a non muslim man.

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Hi gobi79harry!

I just wanted to make a slight correction to something you said. Allah is perfectly clear on the matter of a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man, He said it in the Qur’an:
“O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them, Allâh knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers, send them not back to the disbelievers, they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them…That is the Judgement of Allâh. He judges between you. And Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Wise.” (60: 10)
As with anything we need to check the validity of the sources before we quote them.

And yes, I agree that the woman will never lose the fact that she is Egyptian, and likewise, unless she renounces her faith, however tenuous or not that may be at the moment, she will always be a Muslim and that will always influence what she does and thinks is the correct way to act as much as her being Egyptian will.

On the surface this website appears to be a useful site, but I have visited a couple of times and have doubts about many things I have read, particularly about the qualification of the person answering the questions. As I said, you need to check the sources of your information, always. There are a lot of people out there claiming to be Islamic authorities without valid qualifications...a bit like quack doctors!

If as you say you want the woman you are talking about to continue with her faith, you are going to have to resolve the conflicts that some of the things you have said, somehow.

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I never wish for her to give up the life of a muslim woman. I've said that before.

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thats the thing with humans.....im not attacking you but your steering from the clear truth....

senario

if a individuals friend starts stealing...but the individual that is stealing tries there best to stay clear from there friend that thinks they dont know there stealing...but eventually finds out....but yet the individual that finds out believes there friend that steal will discontinue but to be in the presence of there friend at the store in the act and is successful....and continues...since the other friend does little...becuase the negative habit wontdirectly affect her/him...
however by unknowing facilitating his/her friend in the recreational habit....his/her morals were indanger but now its difficult to pull out f the hot water she/he has put him/her self into...

the friends negative habit unfortunately intersected with his/her lively hood....
and could dramaticly impact him/her to the point that he/she may pick it up...

Since in your case friendship is passed and a relationship of greater emotional and
physical ties are on the line...

and forget about religion in any logic...

YOU WILL HAVE A DIRECT IMPACT AND WILL INFLUENCE HER DECISION MAKING

PERIOD.....

So her religious beliefs as a result will conflict and MOST DEFINETLY will be on the line...YOU HAVE TO VIEW THIS CLEARLY.....

You have adopted and adapted to your surrondings....

And reform for any sake...even for love..i cant say here..seems unimportant...

Since love is a Emotion.....emotions change...and if thats the reason for marriage....I SUGGEST YOU TO ANALYIZE YOUR STEPS.....STARDING A FAMILY AND BECOMING 1 IS A HUGE LIFE EXPERIENCE...1 of WHICH IS REWARDING...and as confused as any1 in your possition is and dealing with such obstacles...Dont Come to a country for the Sake of meeting..in your case you havent met her before...So if you want to go abouts a great way...THAT DOESNT CONFLICT WITH YOUR values/morals i suggest you to meet Her in the Presence of agood friend of hers or relative...or a Good friend of yours ore relative of the opposite sex...Since you want no hassels and to RESPECT her CUSOMS/RELIGION...

just because my roomate watches a t.v. show I hate all the time. doesn't mean I have to watch it. I read a book or take a walk. I don't have to watch the show. just like someone doesn't have to agree to my opinion.

And If your love is real and true it won't change but age like wine. What better reason to get married if you have love. What do you think marrige is for profit?, status, because the woman has nice child baring hip? What works best for you? Love is the only reason I believe people join together. Would you marry someone you didn't really love in your heart. Someone you're drawn to and feel pain for when they are not near. "All you need is love" John Lennon said that. Smart man , shot in the back , very sad.

[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
Wow Mali, that was the most confusingly written scenario I have ever stumbled to read. I follow you but I don't agree. That can't always be the case. If a person holds to what they think true, they won't bend to anyone who says differently. And in the case of a relationship, couples always differ on some issues. This would just be one of those issues. I don't see that causing a problem. You say ketchup I say catchup. She's her own person, she can make what ever choices she wishes. I will not influence, only support those choices.

just because my roomate watches a t.v. show I hate all the time. doesn't mean I have to watch it. I read a book or take a walk. I don't have to watch the show. just like someone doesn't have to agree to my opinion.

And If your love is real and true it won't change but age like wine. What better reason to get married if you have love. What do you think marrige is for profit?, status, because the woman has nice child baring hip? What works best for you? Love is the only reason I believe people join together. Would you marry someone you didn't really love in your heart. Someone you're drawn to and feel pain for when they are not near. "All you need is love" John Lennon said that. Smart man , shot in the back , very sad.

[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]

[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]

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well i atest to that...

since Ancestry

whether homo sapiens or adam eve

the emotion of love...was far from concern

since the survival of there seed was more then enough signifacnct to bring the world as is today.....

To some love= meaningless emotions that stand in the way....

to others love= a cause to die for....

since sterotyping is more important here...egypto society.....

ir for that matter islam

well in Islam reference....there are 5 reasons for marriage

1...you already said profit/security
2.beauty
3. child barring
4. relations between commuinties and bring about peace....done alot during the Med Ages.
5.LOVE...yes love

this is only based on both partner or the male partner being a Muslim

Since the MALE SEX...is a DOMINATING Sex...right there it is Forbidden for A Muslim women to marry a non muslim

im no going to be fandy dandy and say its All sweet....Since marriage is serious...im not her to give advice...

but as you stated....its only a ISSUE...

Since the word ISSUE...Is interchangably used with the word PROBLEM....

YOUR sentence is confusing to understand

since its a ISSUE...there needs to be a SOLUTION...

And not addressing the ISSUE...is plain old standing in a pit of DENIAL...

so resolve the ISSUE....

Since a Visa to bring her over to the us is a ISSUE....

There are other barriers or ISSUES you clearly need to SOLve...before it affects the marriage...SINCE yes LITTLE THINGS CAN BREAK UP A MARRIAGE...

AS LITTLE AS HOW A SPOUSE BITES ON THERE TOE NAILS...!!!

also, this guy asks for advice, then argues against it because its not what he wants to hear. he's been told repeatedly that even the smallest details he's given point towards lies, yet he still plays games!

you sent money to someone in a foreign country you "met" on the internet! are you that niave? i think you must be, because this is common sense stuff. i get the impression that you make these types of decisions all the time, am i right? impulsive choices, big life changing moves that amount to nothing, all because you didn't listen to advice or even put any thought into what you were doing.

quote:

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Originally posted by UTsarah:
everyone should be focused on the fact that this whole relationship is definitly a scam. he is being used and doesn't know it, or if he does then he's so in love with the idea of this relationship that he doesn't care.

also, this guy asks for advice, then argues against it because its not what he wants to hear. he's been told repeatedly that even the smallest details he's given point towards lies, yet he still plays games!

you sent money to someone in a foreign country you "met" on the internet! are you that niave? i think you must be, because this is common sense stuff. i get the impression that you make these types of decisions all the time, am i right? impulsive choices, big life changing moves that amount to nothing, all because you didn't listen to advice or even put any thought into what you were doing.

i know this is very harsh, but come on, he makes pompus statements that come off like the over dramatic thoughts of a teenage loser. the silly attempts at sounding deep, the lame attemps at smart references, its all just sad and childish. people who have lived and experienced the culture and society you ask about give you good sound advice, and you insult or ignore them and tell them how it really is. if you won't listen, then i think you deserve the reality check thats waiting for you.

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UT couldnt say it better...it has nothing to do with the relationship whther a scam or not...

its just the childish persona he has with his sterotypical comments that a 13 yr old would make...

Another thing you should do is to check out sites about interfaith marriages. There are other people who thought naively, like you that it wouldn’t make a difference, but down the line it has caused huge problems. It sounds like you haven’t had much exposure to Muslims other than this woman. Perhaps you should go to your local mosque and meet some! As I said, Islam is a way of life, it doesn’t just affect the way you pronounce a word or like certain television programmes, it is a basic belief system that affects everything from the way you deal with people, the way you earn/save your money, how you go to the bathroom, what you eat, when and how you can have sex, along with the requirements for praying 5 times a day and fasting for a whole month in the year, etc. etc. etc.

You could be being taken for a ride, as the others are suggesting; there is nothing wrong in someone wanting to make their life better and looking for a way out of a difficult life situation, we all do that. But if her intention is purely to hook someone to get her out of Egypt by making them feel sorry for her and it is based on lies, and if she gets out she will make his life hell or continue to abuse his trust, then that is another issue.

Aren't the happiest people the kind of (can I put this way?) Heminguesque people who have the ability to simply sort down the life to its simple pleasures - food, sleep and maybe sex if you are the more lucky, smiles of good people, a firm handshake now and then...

It is the kind of life you lead when you detach yourself from any kind of organised administrative system, whether religious or secular, as much as practicable, so here's also a point to think about: that the systems we have created and still continue building in the world, may be more of a burden to an individual rather than something that would help him enjoy his life....???

So, he'll go, visit, meet her, find ways to spend time with her the way they both wish (we human beings are creative and who of you was it who even pointed out a park in Cairo, in Zamalek? where couples sitting on benches where much more interested in gazing at each other that at the beautiful surroundings?) and just carry on day by day until they both like how it makes them feel.

And with the US embassy, with a country that supposedly has an issue with islam, wouldn't it make such a helpful case to aid a young loving couple who are forced to FLEEEEEEE (here drama become shelpful again ) because she is facing horrible denouncement from her community and his human right to marry for love is violated??
I am sure they can eventually find SOME country that will receive them because believes in keeping administrative and spiritual issues apart.

About islam being SOOO different, no it is NOT. It is a different kind of cocktail form the cocktail of say catholicism or buddism, but the deepest values and those that the wisest religious people actually follow, are based on humanistic principles and some good sound common truth.
Some others are based on frightening people into obedience (the purpose of all organised believing) which may even have not been so bad thing in a totally unruly country but should probably change as people change; and yet some are based on deficient knowledge of the times when the story was compiled, but these are really not so important.

That a person in the family chooses not to eat
or only chooses to eat special food is no big deal in the West, quite contrary it is harder and harder to find a person who eats normal things at normal times. That one has special rules for sex... some other people call it care and common sense. That people pray a certain times a day... a pause every 50 minutes is not only healthy for eyes and mind but also helps to relieve pressure like any kind of meditation would.

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I thank you all for your help, info, and time. You may not think so , but It all has sunk in. I hope nothing i have said has offended anyone. I never meant to cause so much trouble. If it's not what it is when I get there, i'll just enjoy the stuff Egypt has to offer and go about my merry way. Who Knows maybe I'll even turn to Islam , I haven't ruled anything out. There are many choices that i guess are mine alone to take, and I will choose the path that best suits me. I'd do anything for this girl, and I hope it all works out. I'll post here to let all know if she was real or not. I still believe she is ,,,in my heart,
Thank you to all , and to all a goodnight

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Originally posted by a person here:
are you that niave?

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Naiivety, contrary to popular belief, is actually a positive human trait. It is what enables us to believe in new posibilites and that there are things and truths we do not know as yet. It helps find and create new solutions to (usually old ) problems, in contrast to the "know it all" type of life fatigue.

quote:

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Originally posted by nevermind:
[B] Naiivety, contrary to popular belief, is actually a positive human trait. B]

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Nevermind this poem is for you

SONNET 116
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

by William Shakespeare

[This message has been edited by salama (edited 14 May 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]
My goodness, fresh for later??? like a vegetable or a piece of meat????

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Originally posted by nevermind:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serendipity:
[B] Nevermind this poem is for you

Thank you Seren, I am a fair maid as can be but so fair as to deserve such beauty of mind and word, I am not .
Let it then rather be a poem for all lovers, OK?, because, my word, I have read my share of S. in my early years but mostly his plays which are mainly witty. Anything of such beauty I have not read before.

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Your welcome dear Girl if shakespeare excisted now i would marry him!! (hehe i am a sentimental fool)

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I'm not trying to be stubborn about it, and I'm not acting like "I don't want to be Muslim just because..." That's not the issue at all. Infact I have even thought about it. The only reason why I would convert , would be for her, because I love her so very much. The Issue is, deep inside my inner beliefs would conflict with some of the rules of Islam. I wouldn't feel true to it or myself. There are some basic human rights and choices that would be taken away from me, and I believe woman should have all the same rights and respect as men. I haven't seen that in Islam. I have not completely made up my mind on the subject but for now this is how I feel.

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Originally posted by he_love 21:
Hi GB....I read all your posting....Do you want to know something all herestory:
My bf send me money and more than 100$ so its not wrong if you believe that your gf a good person.Hey all realize still have girl ask money but have good hearth.I am moslem and my bf just believe god not religion.Want to know the truth I can come visit my bf in hotel I dont think so hotel staff will asked the ID of your gf.And I know the story like you never meet and plan marry and the next happy ending story.I getting marry also with my bf who that non-moslem.
So GB if you think you wright so do it.Just tthink you come to cairo for vacation and the same time to know your gf more so if something happened nothing to loose right?
Good luck

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Thank you he_love21

You have really eased my mind. I'm glad I am not alone in this situation. For awhile I thought we were the only moslem/non-moslem couple. So your boyfriend IS going to convert when you marry? I love my girlfriend with all my being! All I want in life is to spend everyday with her and have a family. We make each other very happy and if God didn't want us to be together then we never would have met and fell in love. There is a reason for everything and I thank the God everyday for her.

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Originally posted by he_love 21:
...My bf send me money and more than 100$ so its not wrong if you believe that your gf a good person....Want to know the truth I can come visit my bf in hotel I dont think so hotel staff will asked the ID of your gf.

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Assalamu alaykum Hanny!

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Originally posted by he_love 21:
Hi GB....I read all your posting....Do you want to know something all herestory:
My bf send me money and more than 100$ so its not wrong if you believe that your gf a good person.Hey all realize still have girl ask money but have good hearth.I am moslem and my bf just believe god not religion.Want to know the truth I can come visit my bf in hotel I dont think so hotel staff will asked the ID of your gf.And I know the story like you never meet and plan marry and the next happy ending story.I getting marry also with my bf who that non-moslem.
So GB if you think you wright so do it.Just tthink you come to cairo for vacation and the same time to know your gf more so if something happened nothing to loose right?
Good luck

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Originally posted by Serendipity:
Girl are you from indonesia!!!
I have lived in Indonesia for one year!! I miss it soooooo much! Its one of the most beautiful countries I have been to.

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Originally posted by gobi79harry:
Thank you he_love21

You have really eased my mind. I'm glad I am not alone in this situation. For awhile I thought we were the only moslem/non-moslem couple. So your boyfriend IS going to convert when you marry? I love my girlfriend with all my being! All I want in life is to spend everyday with her and have a family. We make each other very happy and if God didn't want us to be together then we never would have met and fell in love. There is a reason for everything and I thank the God everyday for her.

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Hanny!

As you will find out, there are some major differences between Egypt and Indonesia...they are both predominantly Muslim countries, but Egypt is more strict about upholding some aspects of Islam than Indonesia.

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Henny!

Not only does a person have to convert to Islam with their mouth, but also with their heart, mind, and body (i.e. in their actions). If your boyfriend is knowingly only converting on paper for a day, do you really think that Allah will be fooled by that?! Secondly, to have a legitimate Islamic marriage you have to have your wali present and do it in front of two reliable Muslim witnesses, and the person doing the ceremony should be sure that the two people are legally entitled to marry each other; without meeting these conditions you will still be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. I know this is all between you and Allah, and you are held responsible for your own actions, but as a Muslim I am obliged to give advice to fellow Muslims and where possible give correct information to non-Muslims.

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Sadly in your response you only repeated my words that would only make your marriage appear to be a legal one in the eyes of the people, but it missed out the words that would make it legal in the eyes of Allah. Conversion in front of people by saying the words is not what makes someone a Muslim; it is truly meaning it in their heart and mind and showing it in their actions. And witnesses and a ceremony without him fulfilling the criteria for being there in the first place make it a sham ceremony and a lie to the people and to Allah. And you don’t mention your father/guardian, is he in on the lie too?