quote:

---

Originally posted by Ge Ge:
Your English is fantastic,as is your grammar and punctuation.If you do not like western women you have certainly taken a great deal of notice of them.So who are you?

---

Again the woman is thought of as stupid for believing your lies. Do you not think that it is immoral for you to lie so much for the sake of the premarital sex that you are not supposed to have?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
If you were at University in the States for four years, why do you now sell yourself so cheaply to whatever woman asks for your body. Why do you not save yourself for your wife. Is a visa that important to you that you choose to prostitute yourself to get it? How can you manage to have sex so easily with someone that you find so physically ugly?

Again the woman is thought of as stupid for believing your lies. Do you not think that it is immoral for you to lie so much for the sake of the premarital sex that you are not supposed to have?

Somehow I doubt that you are actually an Egyptian man who indulges in this practice. If you are then it makes a mockery of all of the other Egyptians who say that gigoglos are of low class and are uneducated. As GeGe said, your English is excellent and denotes a good education but it does not seem to have stopped you becoming the prototype Corniche pest.

---

I am not speaking of myself, I speak of all my friends who work in the tourist branch. They make fun of you all when we sit together and talk. I do not need any British woman, but when you offer yourself why shall I say no? I am a doctor, I can have any woman I want.

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny:
Booooooooooooring has Egypt got any other professions than doctors...please if you have to lie be a bit more inventive. Sorry the English folks here can see right through you.

---

Maybe he's the famous Egyptian surgeon?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
So you really think old British women are attractive to young Egyptian men? Not to me and not to any of my friends. I agree we have sex with you, but this doesn't mean we find you beautiful. But you are such easy prey. You come here and look for men. Young and good looking Western girls never are after us, it is you old ladies over 40. So easy to have sex with you, you believe everything we tell you. We can look in your eyes and you think we tell truth. You are so stupid. And then you are desperate in finding men that you believe everything. When I read what you write in this forum I must only laugh. You are so silly. Really think any men you write about here is serious with you?

But why should we say no when you offer yourself? It is not easy for men in Egypt to have sex if not married. Egyptian girls do not sleep around like old British ladies do. You really think we love you when we tell you? Look at you, all of you have fat tummy, breasts hanging down, ass is to big, wrinkles in face, legs are not nice and you really think you look nice? We tell you so, but all we want is sex which you give so easily. And when your holiday is over, next British woman comes. You really think 20 or 30 years old man wants to marry old woman? It is like marrying own mother! Men in my country want women who can give children! But many my friends want British wife for visa, but we never ask for it. You always offer invitation to your country. You think we are nicer than British men. Yes, we are good actors in getting what we want.

---

Egyptian girls do not sleep around ? Which country are you living in and have you ever been in contact with any Egyptian girls ? Seems you are too busy hanging out at the cafe with your little friends while the Egyptian girls are out busy with the real men.

Good actors in getting what you want ? Now that is something I have to disagree with. How can you be such good actors when you are an amm ? Your English skills are terrible, you dress like you are wearing your little brother's clothes, brown teeth, terrible hygeine and those pathetic pick up lines and professions of love within 30 seconds of meeting. Definitely not good actors, but certainly wonderful at pathetic and degrading behaviour.

To brag you are a doctor, well, that really doesn't mean much here does it ? The Egyptian doctors I know would have nothing to do with these British women or a slapper shagger like you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
So you really think old British women are attractive to young Egyptian men? Not to me and not to any of my friends. I agree we have sex with you, but this doesn't mean we find you beautiful. But you are such easy prey. You come here and look for men. Young and good looking Western girls never are after us, it is you old ladies over 40. So easy to have sex with you, you believe everything we tell you. We can look in your eyes and you think we tell truth. You are so stupid. And then you are desperate in finding men that you believe everything. When I read what you write in this forum I must only laugh. You are so silly. Really think any men you write about here is serious with you?

But why should we say no when you offer yourself? It is not easy for men in Egypt to have sex if not married. Egyptian girls do not sleep around like old British ladies do. You really think we love you when we tell you? Look at you, all of you have fat tummy, breasts hanging down, ass is to big, wrinkles in face, legs are not nice and you really think you look nice? We tell you so, but all we want is sex which you give so easily. And when your holiday is over, next British woman comes. You really think 20 or 30 years old man wants to marry old woman? It is like marrying own mother! Men in my country want women who can give children! But many my friends want British wife for visa, but we never ask for it. You always offer invitation to your country. You think we are nicer than British men. Yes, we are good actors in getting what we want.

---

Abdul, this is such an insulting thread......

So this is the way you see many tourists coming to your country?

I don't have much to say to you just if you participating in any way with these women - for money, visa or whatever - than you are the prostitute. Shame on you to sleep with someone you call so many ugly names! How can you give yourself away like that? How can you do it? You better off getting a respectable job like any decent Egyptian man - who has respect for himself AND OTHERS - would do.

"ya3ni eyh?, meghasel we damen gannah?"
yeabni 3yb elkalam elly inta bet2oloh dah.

so what if you have allot of friends (and not yourself) praying on desperate ladies over 40's that still doesn’t make it a fact of life,
and if you are an inmate in a federal prison, state facility or even “leman torah”, you will find allot of low life, and criminals who are proud of what they do, but still doesn’t make it the norm

Why would I agree with someone who commits a crime ( buy lying to DESPREAT old FAT women over 40 as you like to call them) and then blame the victim for being stupid, remember you lie to them , you promises them everlasting love, you leave them after you got what you wanted,
maybe some of those ladies are easy as you say, but if they ware so easy why did you have to lie to them, why not just say " hey old fatty, you want to play, I'll play with you for a while" then this way, you get whatever sick desire you want, and they get the fun they want, of course you will get played for it, but at least you wouldn’t have hurt that stupid easy over 40 fatty that beloved you and may have even loved you

what you said could only be translated into "3ozr akba7 men zanb"
and what is this about you BEEING A DOCTOR and can get any woman you want, then why you end up with old desperate ugly fat women, could it be because this is the extent of your ability ??

They always said that education doesn’t mean manners, and you are the best example. You climbed up the functional society with your degree, just to hit down rock bottom, in manners, by using it to become a lover boy

I think you are the scum of the earth, and you should take your University degree and shove it up your ass,

Your mama should be very proud of you

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
I am not speaking of myself, I speak of all my friends who work in the tourist branch. They make fun of you all when we sit together and talk. I do not need any British woman, but when you offer yourself why shall I say no? I am a doctor, I can have any woman I want.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
I am a doctor, I can have any woman I want.

---

sorry matey but you cant have me

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
I went to university in the United States for 4 years. How can one not take notice of Western women in my country when they are after us?

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Dream on- Most British women prefer Italian men, and French men. You are a long way down a long list. There are obviously attractive men in every race. You are just an arrogant, stupid man who cannot understand that we play as many games with you as you do with us. For the record I am a very attractive woman who gets interest from men in all countries.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
So you really think old British women are attractive to young Egyptian men? Not to me and not to any of my friends. I agree we have sex with you, but this doesn't mean we find you beautiful. But you are such easy prey. You come here and look for men. Young and good looking Western girls never are after us, it is you old ladies over 40. So easy to have sex with you, you believe everything we tell you. We can look in your eyes and you think we tell truth. You are so stupid. And then you are desperate in finding men that you believe everything. When I read what you write in this forum I must only laugh. You are so silly. Really think any men you write about here is serious with you?

But why should we say no when you offer yourself? It is not easy for men in Egypt to have sex if not married. Egyptian girls do not sleep around like old British ladies do. You really think we love you when we tell you? Look at you, all of you have fat tummy, breasts hanging down, ass is to big, wrinkles in face, legs are not nice and you really think you look nice? We tell you so, but all we want is sex which you give so easily. And when your holiday is over, next British woman comes. You really think 20 or 30 years old man wants to marry old woman? It is like marrying own mother! Men in my country want women who can give children! But many my friends want British wife for visa, but we never ask for it. You always offer invitation to your country. You think we are nicer than British men. Yes, we are good actors in getting what we want.

---

Also- the funniest thing is- those fat old ladies you are talking about - you are the ones having to have sex with them- they have sex with a young possibly attracive man- who is the winner there then- I know who I would rather be. I just dont envy the poor Egyptian women who get stuck with the fat old men and can do nothing about it. At least we have a choice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sue333:
Also- the funniest thing is- those fat old ladies you are talking about - you are the ones having to have sex with them- they have sex with a young possibly attracive man- who is the winner there then- I know who I would rather be. I just dont envy the poor Egyptian women who get stuck with the fat old men and can do nothing about it. At least we have a choice.

You are more stupid than I originally thought. And desperate for sex obviously- if you have to resort to fat old women.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by welsafty:
Sue333, Abdule is indeed the scum of the earth, but this is the first time I see someone who is trying to convince another (abdule) that he is a scumbag, but making the case that she herself even lower than him
You don’t like his stereotyping, but you couldn’t keep to yourself your great knowledge about [b] Most British women taste in men
You didn’t like his arrogance, but you couldn’t pass on the chance to prove you are even more arrogant,
You didn’t like his tricks and lies and said that you play even worst games,
You don’t like him sleeping around and are proud to say that you DO sleep around
Yet I still agree with you that Abdule is a bag full of **** .
And you have the guts to feel sorry for those poor Egyptian women, wow , how unlucky they are, not being able to sleep around and be fooled by young Italians or even Egyptian kids !!!!
And you even insult this idiot more, not realizing that you insult yourself, and let me ask you one thing, if he is so And desperate for sex obviously- if he have to resort to fat old women, how desperate those Italian men, and French men who is a winner to have sex with you ?
He likes to fool fat old over 40’s foreign ugly women who think they are attractive, and you are just a woman who think she is attractive maybe also fat ugly over 40 , and prefer to get screwed by Italians instead.
I think **** knows ****

[/B]

---

but guys I don’t understand ? didn’t she say

quote:

---

Originally posted by sue333:
Dream on- Most British women prefer Italian men, and French men. You are a long way down a long list

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Didn’t she say:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sue333:
I just dont envy the poor Egyptian women who get stuck with the fat old men and can do nothing about it. At least we have a choice.

---

I still insist,
Scumbag knows scumbag, maybe this is the only reason they find each other.
And even in the most liberated societies, 2 weeks relation does not allow any woman to call someone Her man, she can only call him, my new love adventure
To all other DECENT ladies out her, I don’t mean at all that 2 weeks are not enough, I wouldn’t even say that 2 days aint enough, any of you could fall in love in couple minutes for all what I care .
I am just trying to follow the contradictions sue333 have in 2 posts , in one she is IN LOVE, and in the other, she is tooo good to fall for that kind of a game

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol_2004:
Come on give her a break! This lady has just been on holiday to Hurghada (I'm assuming 1st time in Egypt). She seems to have no or little idea of how things are in Egypt. To me as a Westener her comments seem perfectly ok. To me as a westener who knows Egypt they seem naive. I don't think she ever said that she sleeps around or said she is an old woman sleeping with a young egyptian! I don't think there was any need for that at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by welsafty:
Was I little to harsh on her?
maybe I should think about it once again and apologize, ,, bbb b bb but

but guys I don’t understand ? didn’t she say

---

But to be fair Abdul did start bashing British women over a certain age. I actually agree with SOME of what he said. I think Sue was just trying to defend us Brits thats all and perhaps unknowingly went the wrong way about it. Be nice : )

" if your house is made out of glass, don’t through stones"

dont you agree with me ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Carol_2004:

But to be fair Abdul did start bashing British women over a certain age. I actually agree with SOME of what he said. I think Sue was just trying to defend us Brits thats all and perhaps unknowingly went the wrong way about it. Be nice : )

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
Great that I stirred up such discussion! Of course you aged women care about age. Otherwise that topic "Does age really matter" would never have received 268 posts. I think the author of this topic must be very afraid that her young lover might leave her - if not, would she have placed this topic? Here you see how insecure 50 year old British women are! Yes, you are right, I am a fake! But I am Egyptian and I know one of you aged Brits personally. Now you can guess.

---

I am an over fifty and one of those that say age really does matter but I am also one thatis relatively happy with the decisions I made. So are many others. My relationship lasted longer than many European marriages and was ended by me.

Whether I am a fat-ugly-old woman (or a crusty old hag to use Sexy Beast's terms) is a matter of opinion. I like to think that I am not, but if you are with a younger man then you bought him - as many of the posts on this present line confirm.

Welsafty: I'm glad you added 'almost' to the everone

why did you think he wasnt?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Now we are playing detectives insead of doctors and nurses. If you are really an Egyptian then may I congratulate you on your use of English as it is excellent.

I am an over fifty and one of those that say age really does matter but I am also one thatis relatively happy with the decisions I made. So are many others. My relationship lasted longer than many European marriages and was ended by me.

Whether I am a fat-ugly-old woman (or a crusty old hag to use Sexy Beast's terms) is a matter of opinion. I like to think that I am not, but if you are with a younger man then you bought him - as many of the posts on this present line confirm.

If the person is willing to sell himself then there is no problem but caveat emptor - buyer beware.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by welsafty:
Sue333, Abdule is indeed the scum of the earth, but this is the first time I see someone who is trying to convince another (abdule) that he is a scumbag, but making the case that she herself even lower than him
You don’t like his stereotyping, but you couldn’t keep to yourself your great knowledge about [b] Most British women taste in men
You didn’t like his arrogance, but you couldn’t pass on the chance to prove you are even more arrogant,
You didn’t like his tricks and lies and said that you play even worst games,
You don’t like him sleeping around and are proud to say that you DO sleep around
Yet I still agree with you that Abdule is a bag full of **** .
And you have the guts to feel sorry for those poor Egyptian women, wow , how unlucky they are, not being able to sleep around and be fooled by young Italians or even Egyptian kids !!!!
And you even insult this idiot more, not realizing that you insult yourself, and let me ask you one thing, if he is so And desperate for sex obviously- if he have to resort to fat old women, how desperate those Italian men, and French men who is a winner to have sex with you ?
He likes to fool fat old over 40’s foreign ugly women who think they are attractive, and you are just a woman who think she is attractive maybe also fat ugly over 40 , and prefer to get screwed by Italians instead.
I think **** knows ****

[/B]

---

As usul, you only half read what people say and think you can steriotype people. I never said that I had slept around or that I slept with Italian or French men. You stupid person. I said British women prefer them, because unlike stupid men like you- they know how to treat women and make them feel nice and important and guys like you have no idea.

No I am not any of the things you accuse me of and I am a very intelligent person with professional qualifications and can out think and outwit the likes of you. You are just a sad person, who gets weird kicks and needs to keep slagging genuine people off to make themselves feel important. People are only worth listening to when they have an intelligent arguement and can put it across in an articulate way. I replied to Abdul because he had a dreadful attitude and is rude. Are you never taught good manners?

We all get upset when all Egyptian men are put into one group and accused of being gigols and all that crap.

What you have said is exactly the same about British women, don't you think you are generalizing a tad here?

How many British women have you met in your life?

You can't base your views on the ones you have seen, don't tell me all are the same as the type you refer to.

As far as you being a doctor, I think you should be struck of the medical list for what you are bragging about.

Also please have it in mind that some British women are far more decent than you are making them out to be with your childish comments.

Imagine all those fellow Egyptian men who are married to British women, how do you think they will think of you.

Finally, i don't really belive you are Egyptian and if you are then you are a bigger plonker than I thought you were "Rodney".

I don't know what you are so bloody smug about anyway. You come across as a plonker.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol_2004:
I do find it ridiculous that the obeese (sp?) ugly old woman that sleep with young attractive men of any age could actually believe that the men find them attractive. Actually maybe it is just a very sad situation rather than ridiculous. They are so flattered that they will believe anything. What I find disgusting is that these men play on woman like that in a vulnerable state and use it to their full advantage. It disgusts me how anyone can sleep with anybody they are not attracted to.
I find situations where the older lady is attractive and succesful equally sad. A lady who is attractive and succesful in the west having a young attractive bf or husband is nothing unusual. The young Egyptian (Egypt forum but also Jamaican, turkish.......) man may actually find her attractive which makes the situation and in my opinion the man slightly better. But I do not and will never believe that the man will look at her as a wife in the intended meaning of the term. UNLESS.... She can provide children, he is prepared for them both to live in Egypt, provide for her and agree to a monogamus marriage. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION.

---

A lot of what you say makes sense, but I can never understand a society that cannot view love as a positive thing and puts being able to provide children especially men as more important. I never professed to being in love or anything else. There are people on here pretending they have 1 view and then another and slagging people off. And I dont mean you. Why are you not all out enjoying yourselves, having fun with life instead of slagging each other off. Egypt is a lovely country. One I have visited in the past. You should all be out enjoying it. Maybe I will never agree with the traditions and arguements and this is the one thing I have learned from this. Not as other people I have stated, that I am arrogant and change my arguements. I am a genuine person, who thought this board would just have people who would either answer in a genuine manner with help or would ignore my post. I said before, that I probably didnt word it well.
Who knows what will happen in my situation. Probably nothing. I will probably find that someone I wondered may be insincere is. That happens all the time in life. I just feel sad that people find the need to be! I call the guy 'my guy' as a way of referring to him.

I feel that people and especially some of the guys on here have a very inaccurate of British women- old or otherwise. SOme may be niave but not many in my experience. Are Egyptian women so wise, or is it that these men wouldnt dream of behaving in such a way or society would condemn them. Often many of the women are not given rights that I believe in, and having read about this, many are not based on religion but tradition and tradition is not always right. That is the case in any society.

SUrely you should be concentrating on the many things this wonderful country has to offer and not wast time on the bad. Then there would be more tourism and jobs etc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sue333:
A lot of what you say makes sense, but I can never understand a society that cannot view love as a positive thing and puts being able to provide children especially men as more important. I never professed to being in love or anything else. There are people on here pretending they have 1 view and then another and slagging people off. And I dont mean you. Why are you not all out enjoying yourselves, having fun with life instead of slagging each other off. Egypt is a lovely country. One I have visited in the past. You should all be out enjoying it. Maybe I will never agree with the traditions and arguements and this is the one thing I have learned from this. Not as other people I have stated, that I am arrogant and change my arguements. I am a genuine person, who thought this board would just have people who would either answer in a genuine manner with help or would ignore my post. I said before, that I probably didnt word it well.
Who knows what will happen in my situation. Probably nothing. I will probably find that someone I wondered may be insincere is. That happens all the time in life. I just feel sad that people find the need to be! I call the guy 'my guy' as a way of referring to him.

I feel that people and especially some of the guys on here have a very inaccurate of British women- old or otherwise. SOme may be niave but not many in my experience. Are Egyptian women so wise, or is it that these men wouldnt dream of behaving in such a way or society would condemn them. Often many of the women are not given rights that I believe in, and having read about this, many are not based on religion but tradition and tradition is not always right. That is the case in any society.

SUrely you should be concentrating on the many things this wonderful country has to offer and not wast time on the bad. Then there would be more tourism and jobs etc.

---

Now Sue I am hoping that wasn't aimed at me? I knew you never said you were in love with your friend and everything that was said about you in this thread was completly inaccurate. Men like the ones being discussed would not dream of behaving in this manner to an Egyptian girl (although I know that there are easy Egyptian girls too - shock horror!) because the majority of the time they would not be allowed any where near them! This is perfectly logical I think. I personally love the Egyptian culture in its true form away from giggalos and moaning foreign 'wives'. I think its fantastic and I also think that there is alot the west could learn from it. Have you only been to Hurghada Sue or other parts?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol_2004:
Now Sue I am hoping that wasn't aimed at me? I knew you never said you were in love with your friend and everything that was said about you in this thread was completly inaccurate. Men like the ones being discussed would not dream of behaving in this manner to an Egyptian girl (although I know that there are easy Egyptian girls too - shock horror!) because the majority of the time they would not be allowed any where near them! This is perfectly logical I think. I personally love the Egyptian culture in its true form away from giggalos and moaning foreign 'wives'. I think its fantastic and I also think that there is alot the west could learn from it. Have you only been to Hurghada Sue or other parts?

[This message has been edited by Carol_2004 (edited 19 September 2004).]

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Not aimed at you.

No I have been to Luxor and Cairo although a few years ago. I love the middle east and enjoy Egypt. I think there is a lot Egypt has to offer and I thought and liked the fact that they are seen as a moderate country. I guess everywhere has a few idiots and we should just ignore them. You appear to be a sensible lady who is intelligent and has her own mind. I think my next trip will be informative whatever course it takes. I look forwrd to it. Like I said, I will have some fun. I guess I have to watch what i say- having some fun to me means just that but on here will probably be totally misinterpretted by some sad guy thinking that means sex!!!

I actually am looking forward to visiting without the kids so that I can feel the spirit of the place without being concerned for their happiness, welfare etc. When I come with them, it is different although very much fun too.

Hope to stay in touch

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mimmi:
Why make sex such a bug issue, in the west and many other countries old, ugly ,fat ladies and also young ,beautiful ones can sleep with whom ever they want and nobody could care less.
So why if somebody is having sex in Egypt it is a big deal?? and it is everybody's business.

---

[/b][/QUOTE]
I could not agree more.Why does everyone think if you go out with a younger man it is for sex,and by the way I hate that word,it is so unemotional.

There more to life than bonking someone which soon wears off.You have got to build a friendship then when all the lust and passion fades you have a foundation. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes BUT this is Egypt!!!
Go back in time ca.150 year
You have the chance to live in the good old day's

quote:

---

Originally post by sue333:
No I am not any of the things you accuse me of and I am a very intelligent person with professional qualifications and can out think and outwit the likes of you.

---

I never had the need to point out my QUALIFICATIONS to prove my point, or convince anyone that what I am saying have logic in it, and if I did, then my argument is week and It needs the support of QUALIFICATIONS

quote:

---

Originally posted by sue333:
You are just a sad person, who gets weird kicks and needs to keep slagging genuine people off to make themselves feel important.

---

Do you feel Important now ??

quote:

---

originally posted by sue333:
I never said that I had slept around or that I slept with Italian or French men

---

I am wondering why haven’t you remind me that you are still VERRY attractive woman .
keep singing lady!!, I feel pretty, oh so pretty , I feel pretty, and witty , and gaaaaaaaay

quote:

---

Originally posted by sue333:
I think your mother and father would be ashamed of people like you and Abdul

---

mmm ...... maybe not as proud as your kid watching you doing what you do best, "Hunting for a young Egyptian stud (diver instructor) , on your 2 weeks vacation". I am sure he understood it was love at first sight and not just mama feels pretty and that’s her last chance

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
Great that I stirred up such discussion! Of course you aged women care about age. Otherwise that topic "Does age really matter" would never have received 268 posts. I think the author of this topic must be very afraid that her young lover might leave her - if not, would she have placed this topic? Here you see how insecure 50 year old British women are! Yes, you are right, I am a fake! But I am Egyptian and I know one of you aged Brits personally. Now you can guess.

---

OMG you not that young felluca boy I refused to go to Banana Island with are you

I am sooooooo sorry, I didnt realize the rejection from a fat old british warthog would make you so bitter and twisted
Please forgive me

Come on be a gentleman you don't have to go below the belt with sue.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abdul:
Great that I stirred up such discussion! Of course you aged women care about age. Otherwise that topic "Does age really matter" would never have received 268 posts. I think the author of this topic must be very afraid that her young lover might leave her - if not, would she have placed this topic? Here you see how insecure 50 year old British women are! Yes, you are right, I am a fake! But I am Egyptian and I know one of you aged Brits personally. Now you can guess.

---

Maybe I was to tough on her, but it is only because I don’t like double standards,
Someone would do something, and say something completely different and everyone have to agree with them, plus one more thing about sue333, why the heck would she say anything about my parents, and suggesting they should be ashamed of me,
As if she is implying that she is OLD enough to know what is right and what is not, and is giving me a lesson in manners,
In the sates and English speaking cultures we say “those who can’t do, teach”,

in Egypt we say “those who lack something cannot give it”
and we also say “does not speak of manners, those who don’t have it”

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny:
Welsafy I guess you did not get the cigars then. !

Come on be a gentleman you don't have to go below the belt with sue.

Penny

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