quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
I think you mean that as long as the cultural issues DO coincide with Islam then its ok, if they go against it then its not ok. Demanding a flat/villa and heaps of money does not coincide with Islam.
No once again I didn't say that. I was very clear on what I said regarding culture verse Islam customary issues.
Secondly, where in Islaam is it forbidden to ask for a flat/villa and heaps of money? I would put my life on the line in saying that you will not be able to prove that statement forsure! [/QB]
where did i say it was forbidden? I said it does not coincide with Islam. Meaning it is a cultural thing and nothing to do with Islam.
Where does it say you CAN or MUST ask these things? Where does it say in Islam?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
if you look back you will see it was me that said its all a joint thing. It is you that is referring to cows and milk sands. Marriage that is not a joint thing is legal prostitution isnt it? If you 'bought' your wife then you are assuming you can have 'milk' free whenever you want it, isnt that the same as saying you pay for those services by 'providing' for her? [/QB]
You are cross contaminating again. Where in Islaam is it said that marriage financially is a joint thing? No women are not supposed to take care of men jointly. Again show us in Islaam where is the case?
You are mixing up western ideas with Islamic ones, and there in lies the problem. Men have always been the maintainers of women, supporter of women. You can speaking of some new age philosophy in the 20th or 21th centry. It sounds good but it is not the way Allah intended men and women to live.
You have already quoted the ayaat talking about men bening the maintainers of women so no need to go back into that. Those ayaat should be sufficient. If a women wants to help fine, but don't even make it seemingly like it is supposed to be the norm and if a women doesn't help jointly 50/50 she is a prosititute!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:Where does it say you CAN or MUST ask these things? Where does it say in Islam? [/QB]
You are the one who is supposed to prove your case, not me to prove it for you.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:Where does it say you CAN or MUST ask these things? Where does it say in Islam?
You are the one who is supposed to prove your case, not me to prove it for you. [/QB]
I too find this strange that when a woman is giving the ability to speak her mind and in terms of marriage and ask for whatever she deems fitting or appropiate in terms of dowery or other than that, some women here find it offensive and degrading. Very strange.
I get the impression that some women here feel that a woman who says that I believe that no matter what you give me I'm worth more than that, however, I am asking for A, B, C and maybe D for my dowery she is selling herself (maybe even selling herself short ). Would you rather their fathers just give them i.e. their daughters all away for a piece of date or for few ayats of Quran, should that be the norm?
Or are the women here just aruging or debating just for the heck of it? When it suits them?
This is truly a form of women's rights in Islaam and yet some turn it into a form of prostitution..Shame shame shame
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
sands, firstly I never said if a woman doesnt help jointly 50/50 she is a prostitute, you said that based on what I said that has obviously offended you.
If a prostitute charges X amount for sex and that same prostitute charges XX amount for marriage what is the difference? The difference is she will have a marriage certificate showing she is now owned and cannot charge for sex with someone else. I am not saying your wife, or any other wives that are kept and paid for by thier husbands are prostitutes.
If you rent a car to use for a week at X amount, then choose to buy a car for XX amount, you can then use it for free because you have bought it.
The verse is about protecting and maintaining, it says nothing about large sums of money to buy the woman, it says nothing about a villa or a flat fully furnished. It says 'from his means', if he can afford it thats great but if he cant he cant marry? no, thats wrong because islam says you should marry as soon as you are able to. If the women didnt demand so much then the men would not find it necessary to 'use' a western woman to gain the 'means' for him to afford an Egyptian wife. Who is prostituting themselves?
What do you mean I am the one who is supposed to prove my case? What 'case'?
I have asked you to show me where it says a man is to provide huge sums and a villa or flat, you cant, you can never answer a question yet you demand answers from me. You have made these statements saying they are to do with Islam, you should prove your case dear boy, not me.
As for the 21st century, isnt Islam supposed to be for all times? It is not supposed to stay in the 7th century sands, we are supposed to progress, we are supposed to change. Islam is dynamic, it changes with you, it changes for the times. Well saying that I mean QURAN does, of course the rest of what you say is Islam doesnt change, hence silly rules and regulations from the 7th century still apply to you today. Wake up, you are living in the 21st century!
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Maybe it's an American phrase, I didn't know it untill now. It's funny! I didn't want to ask unpolight questions to you,it was just a follow-up on the cow-comparison...if you comparise a wife with a cow, then I can comparise the husband with a bull, isn't it? Again, it wasn't meant that seriously as you took it...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
I get the impression that some women here feel that a woman who says that I believe that no matter what you give me I'm worth more than that, however, I am asking for A, B, C and maybe D for my dowery she is selling herself (maybe even selling herself short ). Would you rather their fathers just give them i.e. their daughters all away for a piece of date or for few ayats of Quran, should that be the norm?
all this does is prove how you see women as property to be sold or given away.
It also shows you are not even getting these demanding high prices from Quran OR SUNNAH because what you just quoted is from hadith. So your version is added and nothing to do with Islam, as I said in the first place and also why you cant give me any 'proof' where you get it from.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sands, firstly I never said if a woman doesnt help jointly 50/50 she is a prostitute, you said that based on what I said that has obviously offended you.
I'm not offended because it doesn't apply to me. that may have been your opinion and words not mine.
quote:If a prostitute charges X amount for sex and that same prostitute charges XX amount for marriage what is the difference? The difference is she will have a marriage certificate showing she is now owned and cannot charge for sex with someone else. I am not saying your wife, or any other wives that are kept and paid for by thier husbands are prostitutes.
A prostitute is a prostitute. So glad you cleared that fact up that you aren't calling women who are asking for their Islamic right prostitutes because they ask for their proper dowery. Thanks!
quote:If you rent a car to use for a week at X amount, then choose to buy a car for XX amount, you can then use it for free because you have bought it.
Yes this is the case with material things as you have mentioned. However, marriage in Islaam and buying or renting a car are totally two different things. Unless you got marriage like buying a car.
quote: The verse is about protecting and maintaining, it says nothing about large sums of money to buy the woman, it says nothing about a villa or a flat fully furnished. It says 'from his means', if he can afford it thats great but if he cant he cant marry?
He can marry, he just can't marry the one who is asking for what he can't afford. There are many things in life that I may want, but for reasons beyond my control I can't afford them, so therefore I either have to work hard to obtain them or give up hope of acquiring them. A woman has the right to ask for A, B, or C and more and the many has the right to say no I can only do A and B but not C and D and the woman then can refuse the proposal it is her right.
quote:no, thats wrong because islam says you should marry as soon as you are able to.
So let those men who are ABLE to marry in their income range marry those woman and not see to marry someone beyone their means. You can't also have what you want even though you desire it. That's just life.
quote:If the women didnt demand so much then the men would not find it necessary to 'use' a western woman to gain the 'means' for him to afford an Egyptian wife. Who is prostituting themselves?
I think you just proved my point when I initially mentioned why men go after western women wa Allahu Ta'ala Alim.
What do you mean I am the one who is supposed to prove my case? What 'case'?
quote: I have asked you to show me where it says a man is to provide huge sums and a villa or flat, you cant, you can never answer a question yet you demand answers from me. You have made these statements saying they are to do with Islam, you should prove your case dear boy, not me.
I'll say it again. The woman can ask for whatever she deems fitting THAT MEANS ANYTHING SHE WANTS IN THE WORLD. The man is the one who says yes I am able to fulfill the conditions of your request or NO I can do it. If he can he can either walk way and come back another day or just forget about it. There is nothing haram about a woman asking for 2 villas, 3 cars and 5 diamond rings. She can ask for whatever she wants. It is her right. If a man doesn't like it he can look else where!
quote: As for the 21st century, isnt Islam supposed to be for all times? It is not supposed to stay in the 7th century sands, we are supposed to progress, we are supposed to change. Islam is dynamic, it changes with you, it changes for the times. Well saying that I mean QURAN does, of course the rest of what you say is Islam doesnt change, hence silly rules and regulations from the 7th century still apply to you today. Wake up, you are living in the 21st century!
Yes, this is the 21st Centry so, don't be quoting that a man got married for a date back in the 7th centry. Women have a lot going for themselves are consider themselve valuable will not accept a marriage proposal on a date.
Time for the men to man up and work and become provider and maintainers of their families and not let their wife and girlfriends maintain them. Do you think Egyptian women will settle for some of the crap these Egyptian men dishout to the Western women, not even for a second! That's why the Egyptian men who marry the Western women (in some cases) know which side their bread is buttered on, and wouldn't even dare to do what they do, because the Egyptian women's family will be all up in their grill!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
I get the impression that some women here feel that a woman who says that I believe that no matter what you give me I'm worth more than that, however, I am asking for A, B, C and maybe D for my dowery she is selling herself (maybe even selling herself short ). Would you rather their fathers just give them i.e. their daughters all away for a piece of date or for few ayats of Quran, should that be the norm?
all this does is prove how you see women as property to be sold or given away.
It also shows you are not even getting these demanding high prices from Quran OR SUNNAH because what you just quoted is from hadith. So your version is added and nothing to do with Islam, as I said in the first place and also why you cant give me any 'proof' where you get it from.
Ayisha read:
Fiqhus Sunnah Sayed Sabiq and look under the chapter of marriage.
Kitab Al Musannaf Imam Abi Ibnn Shayban look in the book of Marriage. (I know for sure this is only published in Arabic. Got my copy at the 2008 Cairo Book Fair 16 volumes over 38,000 documented narrations) Every Muslims should have a copy this set in his/her Islamic library).
There are many references for you to research..why must I always directly you exactly where to go and then you tell me you don't want to go there!
There is more but I'm sorry I don't have the patience to go in to useless debates with you and pulling up exact references.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Yes, this is the 21st Centry so, don't be quoting that a man got married for a date back in the 7th centry. Women have a lot going for themselves are consider themselve valuable will not accept a marriage proposal on a date.
Beautiful sands, you have just said that hadith have no value in this century and that these 'new' rules you go by are nothing to do with Islam! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Yes, this is the 21st Centry so, don't be quoting that a man got married for a date back in the 7th centry. Women have a lot going for themselves are consider themselve valuable will not accept a marriage proposal on a date.
Beautiful sands, you have just said that hadith have no value in this century and that these 'new' rules you go by are nothing to do with Islam!
I didn't say that you did. Jesus Christ! stop putting words into my mouth.
What was said was in response to your quote about a man getting married for a date in the 7th centry.
I said that women in the 21st centry have a lot more going for them and it may have been acceptable for someone then but today's customs have change. The hadith only highlighted what had taken place regarding that marriage to show that a woman could (not necessarily have to) get married for a date.
If a Muslimah wants to get married for more than an date she is more than entitle to, Period, Full stop.
I love ahadeeth and accept any authenic one! You will never find me hating or rejecting authentic ahadeeth that's your cup of tea not mine!
Later!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
sands you said that hadith has no value in this century, no way getting round it you said that.
the hadith does not necessarily mean to get married for a date, it is to show that you are to accept what the man has and not make unrealistic demands, which are being made today and people like you are saying its all ok islamically to demand whatever they like as women are worth more now? No thats not what Islam teaches and its not what that hadith or others like it are saying.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sands you said that hadith has no value in this century, no way getting round it you said that.
the hadith does not necessarily mean to get married for a date, it is to show that you are to accept what the man has and not make unrealistic demands, which are being made today and people like you are saying its all ok islamically to demand whatever they like as women are worth more now? No thats not what Islam teaches and its not what that hadith or others like it are saying.
Yeah whatever! Of course you know Islaam better than most!
Bye bye!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
you do make me laugh when you get to the tantrum stage sands grow up!
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
'Mahr' as understood by most of us, is a token that the husband is accepting responsibility of bearing all the necessary expenses of his wife.
When some families ask 'too much' from the future husband it is for certain reasons:
1- They want the husband to make a huge effort financially so that he does not just have some 'fun' and divorce the daughter - in other words feel responsible and take marriage seriously since a huge financial amount was secured, to guarantee good will, and responsibility
2- They are not very pleased with the future husband, so they push him to the limit to test his seriousness to be willing to take responsibility for all the expenses of their daughter
3- They want their daughter to have the same standard of living she has been used to
4- They want to make sure that the future husband is not marrying for 'her' money, then run away with it to 'marry' another one as soon as he gets bored.
The above are SOME of the reasons some families ask 'too much' for MAHR and for 'mo'aakhar sadaq'.
Some men use the above as an excuse for not marrying an Egyptian, when getting married to a foreigner - that is willing to actually pay Mahr - without her realizing - because they want to build a future and maybe the option to get out of Egypt one day - for financial reasons maybe, or they are actually not interested in making any efforts to be the providers.
Some men just fall in love with a foreigner and give MAHR and more gifts very generously if they can afford it, and do not justify their marriage to the foreigner by bashing all Egyptian women.
In my case, my late husband was the generous sole provider once he became very successful in his profession. Even though I was also capable of providing at par, he refused and preferred to be the sole provider. I respected his wishes.
At the beginning, both families contributed as they were friends for many years, and we were both studying at the time.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: you do make me laugh when you get to the tantrum stage sands grow up!
It's not a tantrum. It is almost useless most of the time trying to talk to you about Islaam a subject which you have very limited knowledge of and yet want to say what Islaam is and what Islaam isn't.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: This statement in my opinion is completely true:
quote:This is one reason why Arab men are looking away from their own for a wife because their own are becoming too expensive to 'buy' and a Western woman will share and not always expect and demand
And I'm sure that a lot of you women who are married to Egyptian men will disagree. Egyptian men are marrying foreign women because they are trying to get around the culture issues. They know that foreign women will not and do not demand the customary issues that typical Egyptian families insist upon. They want the cake without having to fulfill the obligations to get it. Instead of providing some form of security like owning their own flat, it is easier to get the foreign woman and do the rent thing. They know that the foregin women will most likely have that attitude that she will share or even set-up the household because she has more money and is accustomed to doing so in the West.
Egypt men try to avoid the usual:
1. Owning a flat 2. Buying a ring. 3. paying the dowery (which is customary in Islaam) 4. Furnishing the flat. 5. Marry a foreign wife and incase of divorce you won't have to worry about alimony for sure, she'll be heading back to her home country.
They rather chuck their responsibilities and go after someone who will not even be aware that these things are normal in Egypt and that as a wife she is entitled to them.
How many foregin women here have have their Egyptian husbands fulfill the customary issues in terms of their husband owning a flat or villa, buying their wives a nice ring, furnishing the flat or villa AND still maintaining all of the bills in the household?
From what I have read on this board and there are many stories, many of the foreign women have been hoodwinked by their Egyptian husband or boyfriends and the sad part is that the Egyptian men know exactly what a bargin they are getting went they catch the foreign woman.
Why buy the cow when you get the milk free?
Bravo!
You explained it perfectly.
Muslim men are providers and they are thought to be problem solvers and to financially support a family and wife and children.
A woman doesn't have to work but if she makes money she can keep it for herself.
Men are happy to provide for wife and children because this confirms his Islamic duty to be a provider.
Muslim men don't feel comfortable when a woman is provider because this emasculates them and they are not comfortable when they take a role of wife.
To be masculine, problem solvers and providers is what makes Muslim men very attractive and desirable.
You already gave an exmaple of those who would not fulfill their obligation, and you explained why & in what circumstances.
( e.g marriage with western women who have much lower expectations or no expectations, or western women who don't mind to be providers etc.. )
Would Muslim who do want to fulfill a role of provider be comfortable to be in a role of wife and give up the role of provider, so that wife can become a husband and pay all bills?
Now this question is for Muslim men and not for women as I said after 2-3 pages, and now I would like to hear from Muslim men.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Muslim men are providers and they are thought to be problem solvers
Why should they be better problem solvers than women? I see lots of Muslim women who are much better problem solvers than their husbands ...
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Muslim men don't feel comfortable when a woman is provider because this emasculates them and they are not comfortable when they take a role of wife.
ROFL It says a lot about a man if his feeling of "masculinity" depends on his income. Imo a man a who feels uncomfortable or "emasculated" when "taking on the role of wife" has issues with his self confidence, and personally I wouldn't be able to respect such a man.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Muslim men are providers and they are thought to be problem solvers
Why should they be better problem solvers than women? I see lots of Muslim women who are much better problem solvers than their husbands ...
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Muslim men don't feel comfortable when a woman is provider because this emasculates them and they are not comfortable when they take a role of wife.
ROFL It says a lot about a man if his feeling of "masculinity" depends on his income. Imo a man a who feels uncomfortable or "emasculated" when "taking on the role of wife" has issues with his self confidence, and personally I wouldn't be able to respect such a man.
I do not believe that it is a matter of who is a 'better' problem solver here. Or who is a more 'capable' provider. Certainly, some Egyptian/Muslim or any other nationality/religion women can be problem solvers, and can be richer than their husbands, and there are men that rely completely on their wives to solve many issues, but the 'provider' matter is what men in our country were brought up to be. As simple as that.
Many couples do share their responsibilities but at the end of the day in most cases, the man will make sure he is bringing in something more, a flat, a villa, a ring a car a trip..etc.., as appreciation and as pride. That is our culture. So if some men wish to escape from that, well it is their choice!
Men in our country are brought up to be the 'protector' and most of them take pride in that.
It is not a low self esteem or no self confidence, that drives them to do so, as I observed my father my grandfather and my two brothers - but a sense of pride, and love for their family as they were brought up to feel, as they saw their father, grandfather to protect their families, to ensure they have security for the future in case something happens to them.
As I understand it, in the US, in Italy, in Spain, France etc.. for example, it is very much the same within MANY families that are not Muslims. They rely on the man to provide, while women take care of their children.
It is not a secret that many men in this world, that are not Muslims, buy beautiful gifts to their wives on the wedding day, and depending on the financial means, sometimes offer a villa or a flat or a car to their wife as a wedding gift. And some prefer that their wife stays at home, taking care of the children. And out of love, or because they are so compatible, the women accept.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: you do make me laugh when you get to the tantrum stage sands grow up!
It's not a tantrum. It is almost useless most of the time trying to talk to you about Islaam a subject which you have very limited knowledge of and yet want to say what Islaam is and what Islaam isn't.
In this I will agree with you. In other things not necessarily so, your manner is a bit rough.
Posts: 412 | From: protectress of Lower Egypt | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: I do not believe that it is a matter of who is a 'better' problem solver here. Or who is a more 'capable' provider. Certainly, some Egyptian/Muslim or any other nationality/religion women can be problem solvers, and can be richer than their husbands, and there are men that rely completely on their wives to solve many issues, but the 'provider' matter is what men in our country were brought up to be. As simple as that.
Many couples do share their responsibilities but at the end of the day in most cases, the man will make sure he is bringing in something more, a flat, a villa, a ring a car a trip..etc.., as appreciation and as pride. That is our culture. So if some men wish to escape from that, well it is their choice!
Men in our country are brought up to be the 'protector' and most of them take pride in that.
Almaz, I'm aware of the Egyptian point of view which you are explaining here. I've experienced this *protective streak* of some Egyptian men myself in the form of a consideration, caring and helpfulness.
But, as Ayisha said earlier, I did not understand the original subject of this topic to be related only to Egyptian men and women. So statements as the ones I was commenting on are an oversimplification and a gross stereotyping of Muslim men.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Topic Title: Would you marry a man even if he is not capable of being main provider?
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Now this question is for Muslim men and not for women as I said after 2-3 pages, and now I would like to hear from Muslim men.
Where did it change to being a question for Muslim men only?
Is it STILL a question for Muslim men?
I dont think there will be many here admitting they would or wouldnt marry a man, main provider or not Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Muslim men are providers and they are thought to be problem solvers
Why should they be better problem solvers than women? I see lots of Muslim women who are much better problem solvers than their husbands ...
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Muslim men don't feel comfortable when a woman is provider because this emasculates them and they are not comfortable when they take a role of wife.
ROFL It says a lot about a man if his feeling of "masculinity" depends on his income. Imo a man a who feels uncomfortable or "emasculated" when "taking on the role of wife" has issues with his self confidence, and personally I wouldn't be able to respect such a man.
I do not believe that it is a matter of who is a 'better' problem solver here. Or who is a more 'capable' provider. Certainly, some Egyptian/Muslim or any other nationality/religion women can be problem solvers, and can be richer than their husbands, and there are men that rely completely on their wives to solve many issues, but the 'provider' matter is what men in our country were brought up to be. As simple as that.
Many couples do share their responsibilities but at the end of the day in most cases, the man will make sure he is bringing in something more, a flat, a villa, a ring a car a trip..etc.., as appreciation and as pride. That is our culture. So if some men wish to escape from that, well it is their choice!
Men in our country are brought up to be the 'protector' and most of them take pride in that.
It is not a low self esteem or no self confidence, that drives them to do so, as I observed my father my grandfather and my two brothers - but a sense of pride, and love for their family as they were brought up to feel, as they saw their father, grandfather to protect their families, to ensure they have security for the future in case something happens to them.
As I understand it, in the US, in Italy, in Spain, France etc.. for example, it is very much the same within MANY families that are not Muslims. They rely on the man to provide, while women take care of their children.
It is not a secret that many men in this world, that are not Muslims, buy beautiful gifts to their wives on the wedding day, and depending on the financial means, sometimes offer a villa or a flat or a car to their wife as a wedding gift. And some prefer that their wife stays at home, taking care of the children. And out of love, or because they are so compatible, the women accept.
Another great point Almaz.
The thread as you indicated was not about who is 'better'.
As you said, Muslim men are raised also to be 'protectors'.
This upbringing of Muslim men to protect is very appealing and attractive.
It implies a respect by men for the wife, family and children they are defending.
Muslim men, whether as husbands, brothers or fathers, are thought to provide material comfort and security, to physically defend the family from attack or anything else, and to be a source of emotional reassurance.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not only Muslim men are raised to 'protect'. Its a natural instinct in a man to protect his wife and family. protect does not mean provide and provide does not mean protect.
It was you LML that said men are 'better' problem solvers and Dalia disagreed, as do I. Now you are saying it was a great observation by Almaz that the thread was not about who is 'better', we know it wasnt, it was about would you marry a man who wasnt the main provider, but then you chose to ask only muslim men this, which was odd, now you are saying it about 'protectors'.
I do wonder sometimes if you actually 'read' before you reply, or whether you know what you really want to talk about
Men, in their normal state, have instincts to 'protect' and also to 'provide'. Not all men necessarily do this for varying reasons. It is not something that's specific to muslim men though.
The original question will of course be answered differently by different cultures and nationalities, which it was until someone popped in and changed it to muslims and Egyptians and now you are pushing it as being only muslims when Almaz has clearly said its not only muslim men but many others as well.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
One can provide in many ways and it doesn't mean always with making the most money or carrying the entire load on your shoulder. Yes, I think it's a natural instinct for a man to protect others. Circumstances, however, can determine how much a man can provide to those he cares for. I'd rather have a man who can provide me emotional support if he's unable to being the main bread winner in the family than someone who makes all the money & I feel completely alone in the world. You have to decide for yourself what is more important to you.
Posts: 370 | From: Other side of reality | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: As you said, Muslim men are raised also to be 'protectors'.
This upbringing of Muslim men to protect is very appealing and attractive.
Which Muslim men in which country are you speaking about? And who are the people who regard this as "very appealing and attractive"?
FYI, there's a huge number of families in Egypt where the woman is the main provider, I remember citizen posted numbers on this several times on here. So I'm wondering which society / what country your statements are referring to ...
quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: Muslim men, whether as husbands, brothers or fathers, are thought to provide material comfort and security, to physically defend the family from attack or anything else, and to be a source of emotional reassurance.
Defend the family from attack? LOL ... which country and which century are you living in, LML, that you need defense of physical attack?
Btw, in most cases of women being physically or sexually abused, no matter whether in the West or in Muslim countries, the perpetrators are close relatives, such as fathers, brothers, uncles etc. Who defends women from this in Muslim countries where the lawgiver assumes that "attack" is only coming from the outside and never from the inside of the family?
What happens to women in the cases where the very ones who are supposed to give "protection and support" are the ones who attack, hurt, rape or abuse?
Aren't we being a bit naive if we base laws and customs on the assumption that "all Muslim men are perfect protectors and providers"?
I am highly opposed against stereotyping of any kind. As much as I resent the stereotyping of Egyptian men on here as sex-starved, cheating bastards who only marry Western women for money, I resent the absurd stereotype you are trying to present here -- that all Muslim men in all countries are super-protective *providers* and the personification of the perfect man. Your stereotyping does not in any way help to improve the image of Muslim men, in case that was what you had in mind. All it does is make you lose your credibility with all people who have real life experience with Muslim men and know that they come in all variations ... good, bad, and in between ...
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: 'Mahr' as understood by most of us, is a token that the husband is accepting responsibility of bearing all the necessary expenses of his wife.
When some families ask 'too much' from the future husband it is for certain reasons:
1- They want the husband to make a huge effort financially so that he does not just have some 'fun' and divorce the daughter - in other words feel responsible and take marriage seriously since a huge financial amount was secured, to guarantee good will, and responsibility
2- They are not very pleased with the future husband, so they push him to the limit to test his seriousness to be willing to take responsibility for all the expenses of their daughter
3- They want their daughter to have the same standard of living she has been used to
4- They want to make sure that the future husband is not marrying for 'her' money, then run away with it to 'marry' another one as soon as he gets bored.
The above are SOME of the reasons some families ask 'too much' for MAHR and for 'mo'aakhar sadaq'.
Some men use the above as an excuse for not marrying an Egyptian, when getting married to a foreigner - that is willing to actually pay Mahr - without her realizing - because they want to build a future and maybe the option to get out of Egypt one day - for financial reasons maybe, or they are actually not interested in making any efforts to be the providers.
Some men just fall in love with a foreigner and give MAHR and more gifts very generously if they can afford it, and do not justify their marriage to the foreigner by bashing all Egyptian women.
In my case, my late husband was the generous sole provider once he became very successful in his profession. Even though I was also capable of providing at par, he refused and preferred to be the sole provider. I respected his wishes.
At the beginning, both families contributed as they were friends for many years, and we were both studying at the time.
Another great post. Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yorkie whatever the situation is, hold out for what you deserve with your x-husband. Many women invest alot in a marriage then the man tries to cheat her out of it because you don't want to be with them anymore. Nothing worse then a man scorned. They will go for the throat. Stay stong and follow what is fair for you.
Posts: 1369 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am trying to understand all the writing with the copy and posts and follow this thread. I do have one question for egyptians. Why do they feel it is ok to make the american wife's pay for most things? I have noticed this with many relationships. Guess maybe cause we have more money? that makes it ok to do?
Posts: 1369 | From: California | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by elizabethN: I am trying to understand all the writing with the copy and posts and follow this thread. I do have one question for egyptians. Why do they feel it is ok to make the american wife's pay for most things? I have noticed this with many relationships. Guess maybe cause we have more money? that makes it ok to do?
Some Egyptian Families are very well off, old money from land and/ or real estate, sometimes inherited for example from a great grandfather, and sold with a great profit.
Some Egyptian families have very successful businesses from the beginning of times, and the business was kept through hard times and good times, inherited by sons and daughters.
Some Egyptian families are in the medical body for example, and very successful as surgeons, some of these surgeons are so brilliant, they are invited to many countries, for lectures, for actual surgeries, and make a fortune actually..etc...
But, they usually will not accept that the future son in law lives off the money of their daughter, UNLESS, both families contribute at the beginning.. if the son in law has a good background, and shows potential for a successful future.
On the other hand, some Foreign women make it so easy and pay for everything, and these men are tempted, so they let them.
Some of these men will reciprocate one day if indeed they are from good stock.
Good stock is in my opinion: Dignified, hard working, proud, generous and mostly ethical!
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by elizabethN: I am trying to understand all the writing with the copy and posts and follow this thread. I do have one question for egyptians. Why do they feel it is ok to make the american wife's pay for most things? I have noticed this with many relationships. Guess maybe cause we have more money? that makes it ok to do?
Some Egyptian Families are very well off, old money from land and/ or real estate, sometimes inherited for example from a great grandfather, and sold with a great profit; some Egyptian families have very successful business from the beginning of times and the business was kept through hard times and good times finally arrived; Some Egyptian families are in the medical body for example, and very successful as surgeons, etc... but, they will not accept that the future son in law lives off the money of their daughter, UNLESS, both families contribute at the beginning if the son in law has a good background and shows potential for a successful future.
on the other hand, some Foreign women make it so easy and pay for everything, and these men are tempted, so they let them.
Some of these men will reciprocate one day if indeed they are from good stock.
Good stock is in my opinion: Dignified, hard working, proud, generous and mostly ethical!
Land in Egypt in great quanitites is mostly farm land.
Selling that farm land means the land will not be used for farming but for a residential or industrial need. More often than not it means livelihoods and homes are reduced.
Land reclaimation is not moving faster than development of farm land. Tenant farmers move deeper into poverty and have far less economics than they had while being tenant farmers.
So less food for Egypt, less economic stability and opportunities for Egypt.
How could selling your land off be ethical? Sounds rather selfish to me!
Posts: 1455 | From: debtville | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by elizabethN: I am trying to understand all the writing with the copy and posts and follow this thread. I do have one question for egyptians. Why do they feel it is ok to make the american wife's pay for most things? I have noticed this with many relationships. Guess maybe cause we have more money? that makes it ok to do?
Some Egyptian Families are very well off, old money from land and/ or real estate, sometimes inherited for example from a great grandfather, and sold with a great profit; some Egyptian families have very successful business from the beginning of times and the business was kept through hard times and good times finally arrived; Some Egyptian families are in the medical body for example, and very successful as surgeons, etc... but, they will not accept that the future son in law lives off the money of their daughter, UNLESS, both families contribute at the beginning if the son in law has a good background and shows potential for a successful future.
on the other hand, some Foreign women make it so easy and pay for everything, and these men are tempted, so they let them.
Some of these men will reciprocate one day if indeed they are from good stock.
Good stock is in my opinion: Dignified, hard working, proud, generous and mostly ethical!
Land in Egypt in great quanitites is mostly farm land.
Selling that farm land means the land will not be used for farming but for a residential or industrial need. More often than not it means livelihoods and homes are reduced.
Land reclaimation is not moving faster than development of farm land. Tenant farmers move deeper into poverty and have far less economics than they had while being tenant farmers.
So less food for Egypt, less economic stability and opportunities for Egypt.
How could selling your land off be ethical? Sounds rather selfish to me!
Land is sometimes sold to those who want to keep it because they own land just near it.
It is a fact and it has been happening in the late 70's and 80's.
Posts: 919 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by elizabethN: I am trying to understand all the writing with the copy and posts and follow this thread. I do have one question for egyptians. Why do they feel it is ok to make the american wife's pay for most things? I have noticed this with many relationships. Guess maybe cause we have more money? that makes it ok to do?
Some Egyptian Families are very well off, old money from land and/ or real estate, sometimes inherited for example from a great grandfather, and sold with a great profit; some Egyptian families have very successful business from the beginning of times and the business was kept through hard times and good times finally arrived; Some Egyptian families are in the medical body for example, and very successful as surgeons, etc... but, they will not accept that the future son in law lives off the money of their daughter, UNLESS, both families contribute at the beginning if the son in law has a good background and shows potential for a successful future.
on the other hand, some Foreign women make it so easy and pay for everything, and these men are tempted, so they let them.
Some of these men will reciprocate one day if indeed they are from good stock.
Good stock is in my opinion: Dignified, hard working, proud, generous and mostly ethical!
Land in Egypt in great quanitites is mostly farm land.
Selling that farm land means the land will not be used for farming but for a residential or industrial need. More often than not it means livelihoods and homes are reduced.
Land reclaimation is not moving faster than development of farm land. Tenant farmers move deeper into poverty and have far less economics than they had while being tenant farmers.
So less food for Egypt, less economic stability and opportunities for Egypt.
How could selling your land off be ethical? Sounds rather selfish to me!
Land is sometimes sold to those who want to keep it because they own land just near it.
It is a fact and it has been happening in the late 70's and 80's.
Almaz, my in-laws are owners of huge tracts of Delta farm land. Its just this recent generation that the youth of these land owning families marry outside of the land owning class.
One of my FIL stipulations during marriage negiotiations that discussions of selling land for industrial or residential use is forbidden. Which may be why one son didn't bother with a daughter of land owner and the other one did.
Its rare today even in the 70s and 80s to sell your farms to another land owner.
There are laws which are governed by the Ministry of Interior prohibit sale of farm land for non-farm use, but with the right military connections its still very possible.
Many NGOs have studied the rapid loss of farm land to residential and industrial uses, its empidemic. It has gathered internation attention because only 4% of Egypt is arable farm land. That percentage has been reduced by over 1% in the last 3 decades.
Land owners are not exactly wealthy, upper middle class. Most of the tenant farmers are related to them in some form or another.
Selling their land for a non-farm use is the only way of turning a profit. And these people are shunned afterwards by currently land owners. I have a crazy GrandFather in-law who will shoot some of these people if he sees them on his land. Thats if he ever manages to find bullets for his unloaded gun. Posts: 1455 | From: debtville | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
). Would you rather their fathers just give them i.e. their daughters all away for a piece of date or for few ayats of Quran, should that be the norm?![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
16 volumes over 38,000 documented narrations) Every Muslims should have a copy this set in his/her Islamic library).![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic