quote:Originally posted by madame f: He has promised me that he will be with her the whole time. I would say that he is a primary care taker of the child as much as me. Yes she was inside of me and fed on my breast and when we are both in her presence she prefers me but when they are alone or he is alone with her she looks to him for comfort very easily. I do fear that she will not understand that I am not gone forever and that she might be shy to me when she returns. The biggest problem is that this is my husband's only chance to go to Egypt for the next 3 years until he gets the citizenship (problems with the army). So it is kind of now or never. And unfortunately I live in a country which has been hit hard by the international crisis, our monetary currency has dropped dramatically. Of course it would be most ideal if we all went together but that would mean spending all our savings on this one trip. My husband feels so guilty that he hasn't shown his daughter to his family that he feels that he simply must go.
I'm not her greatest fan ( with all the name changes, I didn't realize this was anthropos, I thought it was just a new poster) but isn't anyone else worried about the army bit?
If he hasn't done his army and he goes back to Egypt, he's going to have to sort it before they allow him to travel anywhere out of the country again.
He be back in the army and the baby will be handed over to his parents.His daughter will grow up in the culture that his family wish ..Hopefully iam wrong but thats a fact when its comes to arabic culture.
Posts: 1048 | From: If you are given a blessing you may be envied | Registered: Oct 2008
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I for one want to see madame f (Ant) happy, especially because since I joined I remember she went through a lot of heartbreak. So I only hope she isn't in for other sad/tough moments in her life...
Posts: 2807 | From: Europe | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: ... but isn't anyone else worried about the army bit?
If he hasn't done his army and he goes back to Egypt, he's going to have to sort it before they allow him to travel anywhere out of the country again.
I read it but didn't really read it with thought. Now that you mention it...doesn't sound good, I guess there is a possibility they won't let him out of Egypt? Right? Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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I don't know if I understood what she meant; perhaps she was talking about her country's requirements. I just thought it was really odd to mix her country's requirements - if he's applying for citizenship - with mandatory army, which I am assuming must mean Egyptian, as it shouldn't be her country's requirement. Unless there's an in-law in bad health, I also don't get the "never" part.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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This exemption from military service is a disaster. Even when a man is certainly not suitable to do any militairy service, because of his age, he needs that exemption. They send him from A to B, from one side of town to the other side of town, from bureau to bureau, and everyone is telling a different story. And they need it, even when they are too old to join the army anyway! I don't know how the gouvernment controlls all this, because I know a lot of men who have been free to enter and leave Egypt without that piece of paper, but it seems that they can just pick him up and make his life difficult when he can't show it...
In this case it's obviously the responsibility of the man. If he should need that exception-paper, and he didn't take care of it, he is taking that risk, so it will be his fault when something goes wrong. Let's hope this won't be the case. And to be honest, I don't think that risk is big. The biggest risk is the child's health.
-------------------- Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there. Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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I know of many children who have traveled to Egypt at this age and suffered no consequences. One was for example our missed member Snoozin.
Oh no she went with the child, then nothing can harm them...because western women are shields against viruses and bacteria...
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by madame f: I know of many children who have traveled to Egypt at this age and suffered no consequences. One was for example our missed member Snoozin.
Oh no she went with the child, then nothing can harm them...because western women are shields against viruses and bacteria...
You know very well that Snoozin TOOK HER BABY ALONG WITH HER and her husband to have his parents meet the baby.Period. Who are you trying to fool? Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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SHE NEVER DARED leave her baby travel alone without her,like you do,Anthropos. That is the main issue,baby WITHOUT her mother.
Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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I've really tried hard to stay away from this thread.
Here's my 2 piesters: There's no way I'd do it. There's too many variables in this equation for it to be a sure thing. And, as a mother, I could never forgive myself if anything happened, and I mean anything, and I wasn't right there to either prevent it or try to fix it. No way. I wouldn't do it.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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IT DOES NOT MATTER IF ANTHROPOS WOULD ACCOMPANY HER DAUGHTER TO EGYPT OR NOT CAUSE IF HER HUBBY WOULD CHANGE HIS MIND AND DECIDED SUDDENLY TO STAY IN EGYPT AND WANTS HIS DAUGHTER TO BE WITH HIM THERE'S NOTHING WHAT SHE COULD DO.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Please let's all face it:
IT DOES NOT MATTER IF ANTHROPOS WOULD ACCOMPANY HER DAUGHTER TO EGYPT OR NOT CAUSE IF HER HUBBY WOULD CHANGE HIS MIND AND DECIDED SUDDENLY TO STAY IN EGYPT AND WANTS HIS DAUGHTER TO BE WITH HIM THERE'S NOTHING WHAT SHE COULD DO.
oh more nails on more heads!
no wonder i have a headache!
TL have you packed??
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by madame f: I know of many children who have traveled to Egypt at this age and suffered no consequences. One was for example our missed member Snoozin.
Oh no she went with the child, then nothing can harm them...because western women are shields against viruses and bacteria...
Of course you can't shield her from viruses, but you can shield her from other things. Look, each person has an idea of what is best, even in your own country. What you may think is best may not be what your husband or his family thinks is best. I am going back to what Ayisha said earlier which seemed to be ignored.
You have a daughter. Female circumcision is common in Egypt. It is common because that is what they think is best for a girl. Three weeks is plenty of time to heal. You may not even know it has been preformed depending on the skill of the doctor.
Your husband may very well be a good dad and he may very well feel that as a good dad he needs to have this done for his daughter.
Shes not even my daughter, and I want to go to protect her. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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exactly of_gold, and although it is now illegal here it IS STILL done and once it is there is nothing you can do to undo it.
It was mentioned this is normally done in puberty, wrong again. I know of one beautiful little girl not even 18 months old who was cut and this was recently, after the law was passed in Egypt and after the grand mufti declared it illegal. Egyptians have it in their culture, nothing to do with Muslim/Christian either, they both do it, its a cultural thing, and they are convinced it keeps a girl chaste.
Even if the mother AND father of a girl decide not to have this done the grandmothers have it done in secret! This DOES happen here, be warned.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I know of one beautiful little girl not even 18 months old who was cut and this was recently, after the law was passed in Egypt and after the grand mufti declared it illegal.
quote:Originally posted by stayingput: That law was repealed (sp?). It's not illegal anymore.
OMG you're kidding me!
Honestly, I have no words...........
No, it's not illegal if a gynocologist does it. The razor blade wielding grannies just can't do it anymore. A doctor decides whether the girl's clitoris is "too large" and, if so, it's gone. There no doubt in my mind that sliding a little money into the good doctor's had will get the parents the decision they want and, like it or not, parents do this because they believe either it will keep their daughter chaste or it's for good hygene or because they worry she won't get married if it isn't done or because everybody does it. Whatever the reason, it gets done.
Posts: 758 | From: Here. There. Everywhere. | Registered: Mar 2008
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I bet the reasoning behind making it legal is that if its going to be done, better a doctor to do it. I have to agree with this reasoning.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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The FGM ban retains a clause allowing the operation "in cases of medical emergency." Critics argue that there is never any medical reason for FGM. They say it was inserted to appease the Islamic conservative minority. ...
Last year, the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's largest--yet officially illegal--opposition party, denounced the law for interfering in traditional--and Islamic--practices and held a workshop against the law two days before the vote. A member of a smaller opposition party, Mohamed Al Omda, brought his three daughters and mother to the floor of Parliament, proudly saying they had all undergone the practice.
posted
It seems that Madame F has already made up her mind since she always has a response to everyone's piece of advice.
I say if you feel you can trust your husband this much...send the child to Egypt with the understanding that you won't ever see her again...then if and I mean a big IF he returns with the baby..you will be pleasantly surprised.
As for me...I would never ever have let my babies go anywhere out of the state much less the country without me.
I've had my say!
Posts: 263 | From: Georgia USA | Registered: Jul 2007
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I was only talking last night with a friend that here husband will take the daughter to Egypt and what's the bet that she will be circumcised, he will obtain an Egyptian passport for her, etc etc and before we know it this child is forgotten and lost within the Egyptian system!
Posts: 1244 | From: we come in peace | Registered: Nov 2006
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It is completely out of the ordinary that a mother would be separated from a child at this age. AND FOR THREE WEEKS?? You realize thats 21 days?
He has put to you an extraordinary request and the only appropriate response would be a clear unequivocal refusal. This trip is not in the child's best interest at all.
The fact that you are even considering this is bizarre and surely there's more to the story.
What is within the "normal range" for a seperation from baby at this stage? Maybe a mini getaway for a weekend while you're one town over at the Spa, but thats about it.
My opinion has nothing to do with Egypt - nobody would leave a baby at that age. Perhaps for daycare but not going on an airplane to another place no no no.
If I went to mommy group and told them this everybody's jaw would drop. Of course those are a different kind of parents, clearly.
There must be a lot more to the story. Your comment that you feel coerced by your husband to agree to this is troubling. I am concerned for your daughter. Waiting until next year would be the decision of sensible responsible parents. Wait until you can afford to make it a family vacation. And indicdnetally I might add, if you can't scrape up another grand for a ticket, your husband can't afford to be taking this trip either.
I suspect that you are afraid that if you refuse, he will simply take her anyway.
Posts: 214 | From: Cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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^In Finland I've read as guideline that a small baby/child can be separated from the primary parent (I don't recall it mentioning anything about the other parent...and in this case she actually said her husband is the primary carer) like this
1 year old = one day 2 year old = two days
1 month = one hour 6 months = 6 hours
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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Well all I can say is I must be a rotten mother compared to some views on here. My husband always took ours kids with him when he visited egypt, starting from 1 year old. When i was unable to go. I have even sent my kids age 5 & 8 on a driect flight with BA on there own, while dad picked them up at the other end and i flew 4 weeks later. As for the circumcision comments etc... a lot of scaremongering going on... it does happen, not going to deny that...... however I feel that you if your questioning to let a child go with there own father, then you obiviously are not sure of your relationship.
Also if my husband ran off with my kids, god help him once his mother got hold of him, never mind me... LOL
Posts: 288 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by madame f: I know of many children who have traveled to Egypt at this age and suffered no consequences. One was for example our missed member Snoozin.
Oh no she went with the child, then nothing can harm them...because western women are shields against viruses and bacteria...
No they are defendtly not but they are "shields" against FMG and demanding MIL's....
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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Mother in law doesn't want husband to come with the baby. She thinks she is too young and the trip is too stressful for all involved. So husband will go alone.
posted
The only thing I have to say is baby's grandma thought of your daughter's well being.
Posts: 319 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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Mother in law doesn't want husband to come with the baby. She thinks she is too young and the trip is too stressful for all involved. So husband will go alone.
So there you go.
So there you go.....What do you mean by that?
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Many ladies here on this board are always disgusted and infuriated whenever somebody generalizes about Egypt and then you were not slow to fall into that pit yourself by saying that of course my MIL would want to keep the baby in Egypt and steal it from me.
although its not in our faces but in yours. Your MIL thought about your daughters welfare, you and your hubby thought about yours and your hubbys.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: a bit like ne ne ne ne ne *raspberry*
although its not in our faces but in yours. Your MIL thought about your daughters welfare, you and your hubby thought about yours and your hubbys.
Right on!Just as Ayisha said. Soooo....ne ne ne ne!!!!!
Go and grow up first,madam f-anthropos,then maybe,just maybe you can come back here and post something sane and that makes some sense. Posts: 3833 | From: here,there,everywhere | Registered: Nov 2007
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I didn't quite understand why you posted this in the first place (although you said in the other thread you are letting off some steam this way) because you by now must realise how these forums work, it seems you've had your share before. And now you seem to be pissed of. If your intention was to let off steam I think just the opposite is happening
Mom/kids /parenting issues are always very heated discussions in internet, everyone has their opinion even those withouth kids. My advice would be if you can't take the heat, don't ask anything.
Anyway, you have a wise mother-in-law.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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I was in this exact same position back in october...my egyptian husband was mean greedy and abusive and gave off every impression that he couldn't be trusted. Well he eventually became my ex months before he approached me with his plan to take our 6 year old daughter to egypt...and without me. It was chaos. My parents were so against it that it was nothing but fighting and carrying on for the weeks leading to the trip. Well I ended up allowing her to go, and demanded all the addresses and phone numbers there and they left. I spoke to her each night and they came back safely 2 wks later. My daughter however was completely miserable there and came back unkept and with a forehead full of pimples...a 6 YEAR OLD with zits?! Hmmm.... Her father made a big album for me with all the pics from the trip and although she went to many wonderful places there, she had no smile in any of her pics...just a 'take the picture and get on with it' look in all of them. He has asked to take her again this august during ramadan and I don't want her to go...she keeps saying 'don't make me go mommie...not without you'. So basically, don't worry much about the father taking her there issue...worry about how ur kid feels about going. If they truly wana go, let them no matter what u feel about it (unless the man is a true total bastard then maybe ur gona have to trust ur instincts) and if they truly don't wana go, then it is what it is and they don't have to go. I have been in places I didn't wana be and it stinks big time.
Also, remember the fears ur having are normal for a mother to have, just like with fears about other things concerning ur kids, but they are just fears of what could be and not what really will be and more often than not, after all is said and done, u realize u were afraid for nothing.
Posts: 59 | From: killadelphia | Registered: Jun 2009
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I was in this exact same position back in october...my egyptian husband was mean greedy and abusive and gave off every impression that he couldn't be trusted. Well he eventually became my ex months before he approached me with his plan to take our 6 year old daughter to egypt...and without me. It was chaos. My parents were so against it that it was nothing but fighting and carrying on for the weeks leading to the trip. Well I ended up allowing her to go, and demanded all the addresses and phone numbers there and they left. I spoke to her each night and they came back safely 2 wks later. My daughter however was completely miserable there and came back unkept and with a forehead full of pimples...a 6 YEAR OLD with zits?! Hmmm.... Her father made a big album for me with all the pics from the trip and although she went to many wonderful places there, she had no smile in any of her pics...just a 'take the picture and get on with it' look in all of them. He has asked to take her again this august during ramadan and I don't want her to go...she keeps saying 'don't make me go mommie...not without you'. So basically, don't worry much about the father taking her there issue...worry about how ur kid feels about going. If they truly wana go, let them no matter what u feel about it (unless the man is a true total bastard then maybe ur gona have to trust ur instincts) and if they truly don't wana go, then it is what it is and they don't have to go. I have been in places I didn't wana be and it stinks big time.
Also, remember the fears ur having are normal for a mother to have, just like with fears about other things concerning ur kids, but they are just fears of what could be and not what really will be and more often than not, after all is said and done, u realize u were afraid for nothing.
Posts: 59 | From: killadelphia | Registered: Jun 2009
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god yeah.... totally in all our faces!! when i think alot of the people here were actually concerned for your daughters welfare! i think you have just proven our point and not your own.
anyway, i'm off to look after my baby, who will not be going to egypt cause its too bloody hot and would be too confusing for her....
Posts: 1248 | From: my sex is on fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | Registered: Aug 2008
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Many ladies here on this board are always disgusted and infuriated whenever somebody generalizes about Egypt and then you were not slow to fall into that pit yourself by saying that of course my MIL would want to keep the baby in Egypt and steal it from me.
The reality was completely different.
In your faces!!
You're mistaken, I haven't said anything about your mother in law. It looks like she took responsebility where nobody else did. Was the ticket, that already has been bought, refundable? Hope so, because with that new baby coming, you need the money. Now you're husband can travel home with the big crowd. It's a mess at Cairo International in summer-holidays.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by madame f: wow proving my point again...
The majority of women here were just concerned for your daughter's well being, just the same as your mother in law is ...she sounds like a kind and caring lady, but then most Egyptian women are... ( or is that not an allowable generalisation?)
People would not have reacted to you in the way they have if you did not feel it so necessary to take pot shots at everyone when you made your decision. Up to that point people just cared about you and your daughter and would have respected whatever decision you thought was best.
Posts: 3809 | From: Paradise | Registered: Mar 2003
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I made the decision and everybody reacted like I was the worst mother in the world because I didn't follow the opinion of the majority of women here. So there was no respect at all.
And just for the record, I still believe that my daughter could have gone easily with her father to Egypt but seeing that my MIL didn't really feel up to it and we did need her support we decided to change the plans.
I always had the well being of my daughter in mind.
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Since you want to go there, you stated earlier that your MIL wasn't going to be caring for the child and your daughter was going to be with your husband the whole time then why did u change your mind? The stress and weather of Egypt dosen't matter to u in regards to your daughter. Evidently since MIL was not going to be a backup, your daughter will stay home with u. By the way, do u consider caring MIL PARONOID TOO?
Posts: 319 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:I am worried that I donīt know his family (esp. his mother) at all and I donīt know how they will want to control the situation with my daughter.
quote:I feel also that if I say NO then my marriage is finished.
quote:Still I donīt know if he caīn take care of her emotionally
quote:He has promised me that he will be with her the whole time. I would say that he is a primary care taker of the child as much as me.
quote:Yesterday he explained to his mother on the telephone that she could not do anything to the child without his permission first. And she accepted.
quote:Maybe this is a great opportunity for them to bond.
quote:Time for them to bond
quote:My husband and my babyīs father is a PRIMARY care taker of our child. He spends as much time if not even more with her, he changes her diapers, he plays with her, he feeds her, he takes her outside, he puts her to sleep at night, he nurses her when she is sick.
quote:She is going to be mostly at home with HER FATHER, eating the food she eats here, with her toys, with her teddy bears and all the familiar things
quote:Mother in law doesn't want husband to come with the baby. She thinks she is too young and the trip is too stressful for all involved.
quote:I still believe that my daughter could have gone easily with her father to Egypt but seeing that my MIL didn't really feel up to it and we did need her support we decided to change the plans.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Anthropos, the pollution inside Cairo is the worst I could imagine. I've been there over a week ago and I am still questioning myself if in the 90's the air quality was still better than it is right now as I lived there for a longer period. Truly the extreme heat and pollution mixed together were such a turn-off for me this time. I've learned to appreciate Hurghada.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I apologize if I have not been consistent with my replies in this thread. of course there we millions of mixed feelings going through my head when I was deciding this. And perhaps I was snappy because I was trying to justify something that I felt deep inside wasn't right.
We have decided to try to go all four of us together next year and preferably in October. It is a bit of a long shot because it will be expensive and we wanted to wait until my husband got his citizenship here but we will try.
So I hope you will forgive me dear ES friends.
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Madame F - congrats on the pregnancy. Sounds like y have gotten use to the idea by now???
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by madame f: I apologize if I have not been consistent with my replies in this thread. of course there we millions of mixed feelings going through my head when I was deciding this. And perhaps I was snappy because I was trying to justify something that I felt deep inside wasn't right.
We have decided to try to go all four of us together next year and preferably in October. It is a bit of a long shot because it will be expensive and we wanted to wait until my husband got his citizenship here but we will try.
So I hope you will forgive me dear ES friends.
forgive you for what?? madame f you posted a question here fully knowing the responses would be what you asked for. People gave their opinions as asked for but you panicked and rightly so because you did have mixed feelings as everyone could see. No one here meant anything nasty towards you and im sure no one thinks you are a bad mum but in your posts people read between the lines and you were obviously having problems with this being forced on you, it did appear forced on you against your will and you were trying to make excuses, we see that.
Thing here is you ask for opinions and you may not like all of them you get back, but its concern for your child AND YOU that people were replying for. No apology needed, we all have our heads spinning at some time and it takes a few shouts and moans to get it back on track
I hope you all get to go next year, all together. You are a family and its a family trip to see family, its right you should be there too.
Good luck with new baby too. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I'm just glad it's all been resolved at last Good luck with your new addition MF
Posts: 3945 | From: ' Res Contr ' Amor non es guirens, lai on sos poders s'atura | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
usually the truth is a bugger to accept! I should know.....
good luck! .... at least ya all getting a holiday out of it!
Posts: 1248 | From: my sex is on fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | Registered: Aug 2008
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