posted
if the man doing it he just goes to the office where the marraige was performed in the ministry of justice with male witness proclaims is divorced, they do the papers and 10 days later comes gets them, translation needs done and stamped from the embassy, basically same process as marriage but wife doesnt have to be there at all or sign anything
posted
thanks mysticheart, have you got any idea on the cost of the divorce, or is that something that they settle on when they get married?
Posts: 42 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Debs: thanks mysticheart, have you got any idea on the cost of the divorce, or is that something that they settle on when they get married?
The costs for a husband to divorce is little more than 20LE, if that.
The cost to you to wire the money there would not be proportionate.
Let him pay for this own divorce. You will pay enough when he informs you he's free to be with you.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
i do not know the costs Debs sorry, i would assume its going to be about the same as the marriage cost. the stamps and such as well. The same fee for translation as the marriage and for notary from embassy.. All i know is that when i divorced from my first egyptian husband that he just took a guy to the same place we married, told them we are divorced, they did the papers, translated, went to embassy and they were mailed to me 10 days after he went and said we were divorced. It was very simple. There is a amount of money set at the time of marriage that must be paid to the bride if they divorce however they did not make him pay that to me so i assume they dont enforce that.
Posts: 2410 | From: Indiana, USA | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
This reads like you have an Egyptian friend who is divorcing his Egyptian wife and you want to verify what he told you. All answers so far have been Egyptian/ foreigner divorces. The cost you mean in mahr and it's what is agreed to by both parties when they marry, should they divorce. It's meant to be a deterrent so man doesn't act hastily as it's extremely easy for him to declare divorce.
Posts: 2182 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: This reads like you have an Egyptian friend who is divorcing his Egyptian wife and you want to verify what he told you. All answers so far have been Egyptian/ foreigner divorces. The cost you mean in mahr and it's what is agreed to by both parties when they marry, should they divorce. It's meant to be a deterrent so man doesn't act hastily as it's extremely easy for him to declare divorce.
Thats why Egyptian women collect all they can before marrying.
Mahr - A gift, not a penalty
It is often incorrectly said that Mahr is an amount to be paid by man to his wife in case the marriage is terminated. However, this is a misunderstanding. According to Islamic teachings in the Quran and Hadith (sayings of prophet Muhammad), Mahr is the amount to be paid by the groom to the bride at the time of marriage (Nikah).
Divorcing for a man isn't a problem at all. It doesn't cost more than the fees to file the divorce. Yes a sharia family court can be used by the ex-wife to attempt to collect child support, but in reality the enforcement of child support is nill.
Which is why women expect everything up front before their wedding party night.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
Mahr is not always paid in total and some can be deferred which depending on the reason on who initiates the divorce mahr will then be due in full. There is also in some contracts an amount stipulated to be paid on divorce which is seperate from mahr. So the 'cost' of divorce would depend on what was written in the origina contract.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
i know when my BIL got divorced, he had to pay lots.had to buy furniture for the living room and TV , etc...she bled him dry, and there were NO children involved
Posts: 9443 | From: USA...... | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Mahr is not always paid in total and some can be deferred which depending on the reason on who initiates the divorce mahr will then be due in full. There is also in some contracts an amount stipulated to be paid on divorce which is seperate from mahr. So the 'cost' of divorce would depend on what was written in the origina contract.
that explains why marriage is so costly.
Now what you described may be what westerner "wife" and an Egyptian husband sign a contract to, but an Egyptian woman would never settle for that.
What Debs is asking is how much it will cost her boyfriend to divorce his Egyptian wife.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: i know when my BIL got divorced, he had to pay lots.had to buy furniture for the living room and TV , etc...she bled him dry, and there were NO children involved
Never ever read this from you before. You are just bringing this up now.
Kinda like on a Friday or Saturday night past 7pm EST you are on ES "battling" but at any moment your love interest is going to take you out to dinner, and then watch a move and "cuddle".
quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: i know when my BIL got divorced, he had to pay lots.had to buy furniture for the living room and TV , etc...she bled him dry, and there were NO children involved
Never ever read this from you before. You are just bringing this up now.
Kinda like on a Friday or Saturday night past 7pm EST you are on ES "battling" but at any moment your love interest is going to take you out to dinner, and then watch a move and "cuddle".
for the last time stay out of my business.. and yes we did exactly what i said we were doing.what you havent gone to dinner past 7 on a saturday night..guess not you dont have a husband or love interest just ignore me as i am going to do to you!!!!!!!!!!! you evil witch Posts: 9443 | From: USA...... | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: i know when my BIL got divorced, he had to pay lots.had to buy furniture for the living room and TV , etc...she bled him dry, and there were NO children involved
Never ever read this from you before. You are just bringing this up now.
Kinda like on a Friday or Saturday night past 7pm EST you are on ES "battling" but at any moment your love interest is going to take you out to dinner, and then watch a move and "cuddle".
for the last time stay out of my business.. and yes we did exactly what i said we were doing.what you havent gone to dinner past 7 on a saturday night..guess not you dont have a husband or love interest just ignore me as i am going to do to you!!!!!!!!!!! you evil witch
Actually if you don't want me to comment on your personal life then don't talk about it on ES.
Simple.
I don't discuss much of my personal life "current" personal life because I don't want comments made about my "current" personal life.
I don't have to prove my life is worthwhile to anyone because I am rather content.
How do you know I don't have a boyfriend, fiancee or husband? When have I ever indicated my romantic/sexual situation over the last 4 years?
I wouldn't comment on such a thing around people like you anyhow. I have more respect for myself than you do.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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The only word in all that bile that cuckoo spurted was the word 'simple' ... I couldn't have summed her up any better myself
Good luck Debs finding your answer, it is rather conclusive that it is circumstantial and depends on the ins and outs of the divorce. I suggest you use a different site as the resident dragon here will destroy any hope of you finding out anything accurate or relevant before probably dragging you into an arguement and calling you childlike names too.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Mahr is not always paid in total and some can be deferred which depending on the reason on who initiates the divorce mahr will then be due in full. There is also in some contracts an amount stipulated to be paid on divorce which is seperate from mahr. So the 'cost' of divorce would depend on what was written in the origina contract.
that explains why marriage is so costly.
Now what you described may be what westerner "wife" and an Egyptian husband sign a contract to, but an Egyptian woman would never settle for that.
so on the one hand this explains to you why marriage is so costly but at the same time convinces you this only happens with westerner/Egyptian marriages? Most westerners are not demanding ridiculous amounts anyway.
Yes Egyptian and other Muslim communities DO accept and do this.
"The divorce initiated by the wife is known as Khul' (if the husband is not at fault) and requires that the wife return her dowry to end the marriage because she is the 'contract-breaker'. In the instance of Talaaq, where the husband is the 'contract-breaker', he must pay the dowry in full in cases where all or part of it was deferred, or allow the wife to keep all of it if she has already been given it in full." http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=articles&id=92752
quote:What Debs is asking is how much it will cost her boyfriend to divorce his Egyptian wife.
Nowhere has Debs said that, you have assumed that.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Mahr is not always paid in total and some can be deferred which depending on the reason on who initiates the divorce mahr will then be due in full. There is also in some contracts an amount stipulated to be paid on divorce which is seperate from mahr. So the 'cost' of divorce would depend on what was written in the origina contract.
that explains why marriage is so costly.
Now what you described may be what westerner "wife" and an Egyptian husband sign a contract to, but an Egyptian woman would never settle for that.
so on the one hand this explains to you why marriage is so costly but at the same time convinces you this only happens with westerner/Egyptian marriages? Most westerners are not demanding ridiculous amounts anyway.
Yes Egyptian and other Muslim communities DO accept and do this.
"The divorce initiated by the wife is known as Khul' (if the husband is not at fault) and requires that the wife return her dowry to end the marriage because she is the 'contract-breaker'. In the instance of Talaaq, where the husband is the 'contract-breaker', he must pay the dowry in full in cases where all or part of it was deferred, or allow the wife to keep all of it if she has already been given it in full." http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=articles&id=92752
quote:What Debs is asking is how much it will cost her boyfriend to divorce his Egyptian wife.
Nowhere has Debs said that, you have assumed that.
Not much of an assumption if you read Debs post history:
and you are viewing divorce via fundamentals of Islam, not how Islam is actually practiced by the people.
For a woman to get a Talaaq divorce takes years and it might not even happen. In the meantime he will make her life hell.
Otherwise there is the Khul divorce which is happening at a quicker speed than the Talaaq.
A woman can ask for a Talaaq divorce as she can for a Khul divorce. In both cases she'll more than likely walk away with nothing.
Which is why marriage has gotten expensive, the bride asks for everything upfront and just files for a Khul divorce knowing she won't need to request a settlement.
Remember Debs lover might not exactly be honest with her on how much this divorce will cost. If he is 33 years old, he's probably been married for less than 5 years and thus he had to pay mahr upfront.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Sorry, still nothing that says she is asking about him divorcing his Egyptian wife, nothing there to say he even has one and as that post is 3 years old she could be asking about divorcing her.
quote:and you are viewing divorce via fundamentals of Islam, not how Islam is actually practiced by the people.
For a woman to get a Talaaq divorce takes years and it might not even happen. In the meantime he will make her life hell.
Talaaq divorce is initiated by him, so would assume he wants it over quickly
quote:Otherwise there is the Khul divorce which is happening at a quicker speed than the Talaaq.
Other way round
quote:A woman can ask for a Talaaq divorce as she can for a Khul divorce. In both cases she'll more than likely walk away with nothing.
Again still depends on what was in the original contract
quote:Which is why marriage has gotten expensive, the bride asks for everything upfront and just files for a Khul divorce knowing she won't need to request a settlement.
I thought you claimed before the high cost of marriage was all the fault of the steel guy Ezz?
quote:Remember Debs lover might not exactly be honest with her on how much this divorce will cost. If he is 33 years old, he's probably been married for less than 5 years and thus he had to pay mahr upfront.
Not necessarily, and she has never said he had an Egyptian wife, you are assuming up to this point and have now 'assumed' how long he's been married to this fictional Egyptian wife.
Anyway, the cost of the divorce depends on what was written in the original contract and who is 'at fault' regarding the divorce and whether the full mahr was paid or not.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Sorry, still nothing that says she is asking about him divorcing his Egyptian wife, nothing there to say he even has one and as that post is 3 years old she could be asking about divorcing her.
quote:Originally posted by mysticheart: i do not know the costs Debs sorry, i would assume its going to be about the same as the marriage cost. the stamps and such as well. The same fee for translation as the marriage and for notary from embassy.. All i know is that when i divorced from my first egyptian husband that he just took a guy to the same place we married, told them we are divorced, they did the papers, translated, went to embassy and they were mailed to me 10 days after he went and said we were divorced. It was very simple. There is a amount of money set at the time of marriage that must be paid to the bride if they divorce however they did not make him pay that to me so i assume they dont enforce that.
quote:Originally posted by ExptinCAI: This reads like you have an Egyptian friend who is divorcing his Egyptian wife and you want to verify what he told you. All answers so far have been Egyptian/ foreigner divorces. The cost you mean in mahr and it's what is agreed to by both parties when they marry, should they divorce. It's meant to be a deterrent so man doesn't act hastily as it's extremely easy for him to declare divorce.
So far only you and mickey consider Debs request for info on the grounds of something other than an Egyptian man divorcing an Egyptian woman.
How many western women actually "cash out" of a divorce to an Egyptian anyhow?
Its rare for the courts to enforce Mahr to an Egyptian woman, why bother for a western woman?
Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor. Debs isn't on here much and it sounds like she's got a full career going in the west and cannot move to Egypt, therefore she needs to import the guy. In order to do this he'd have to be in the free and clear able to divorce and remarry at the MOJ. Debs never asked for details about marrying at the MOJ. Yes some "relationships" take that long, or he's just taking his time gouging her.
You are speaking of Islam in a purely Quranic sense, and ignoring the different Fatwas, Juriprudence which give more leadway to a woman rights.
Yet you chose the name "Ayisha" for your reversion because you were so concerned with women's rights in Islam. Quite a turn around.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Talaaq divorce is initiated by him, so would assume he wants it over quickly
quote:Otherwise there is the Khul divorce which is happening at a quicker speed than the Talaaq.
Other way round
quote:A woman can ask for a Talaaq divorce as she can for a Khul divorce. In both cases she'll more than likely walk away with nothing.
Again still depends on what was in the original contract
Ayisha you are confused. There is guidelines set down by the Prophet (PHUH) and then there's an evolution of how different Islamic Empire's juriprudence doled out divorce.
Current Egyptian family law is not within your understanding. ANd its not perfectly aligned with 700 AD Islamic law.
For one, children stay with their mother until they are 15 years old, then the kids can decide who they want to live with. WHich isn't fully in line with 700 AD Islamic law you put your faith into.
There is no-fault and fault based divorce:
Women who seek divorce in Egypt have two options: fault-based or no-fault divorce. In order to initiate a fault-based divorce, which can provide full financial rights, a woman must show evidence of harm inflicted by her spouse during the course of their marriage. Even physical abuse often needs to be supported by eyewitness testimony. Since 2000, Egyptian women have had the option of filing for no-fault divorce (khula). But to do so, they must agree to forfeit their financial rights and repay the dowry given to them by their husbands upon marriage.
Since the no-fault based divorce is easier, more brides are demanding Mahr upfront before the wedding night.
Yes Ezz drove up the costs on thos Mahr items, but because of the new no-fault divorce. Yet at the same time the changes in the divorce laws in regards to women's rights means a divorcing woman has an opportunity to leave a divorce more easily. Thus its better for her to have a contract price paid in full before the wedding night.
Western women don't demand this, partially because like you they are double the age of their men. And two they have more financial assets.
The fact that when a woman has the fortitude to endure the "fault" divorce aka Talaaq (original Islamic divorce means men can issue divorce just by voicing "I divorce you" three times and yes he'd have to pay the Mahr. But if a woman wants to divorce the same way, she'd have to go to the courts and prove she's been abused or neglected in order to recieve that Mahr, no matter if he or she files for divorce.
Enforcement of the marriage contract is abysmal and the courts won't enforce it, the families do.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
But for many people in Egypt, getting married is not financially viable. Inflation has rocketed to around 23 per cent this year; some 20 per cent of the workforce cannot find a job, and many people are struggling to make enough money for the basics. "In Egypt, the average cost of a wedding is equivalent to about 43 months of the entire earnings of both the groom and his father," said Navtej Dhilon, the director of the Middle East Youth Initiative at the Wolfensohn Center for Development at the Brookings Institution.
Couples who are struggling with financial difficulties are also more likely to get divorced if they do not have a strong foundation for a relationship, he said. Wael Yehia, 33, an accountant, was taken to the Family Court by his wife two years ago after he failed to provide her with a separate apartment. Mr Yehia's parents helped him marry Heba, 26, three years ago, but he could not afford to move them out of his parents home and Heba eventually insisted on a divorce
Here's proof that brides demanding the wedding contract Mahr upfront are also trying to avoid divorce.
Again when you are double the age of your man, and he relies on your financial assets not the other way around you won't understand why marriage in Egypt and divorce in Egypt is the way it is.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
Again here's some more practical information, the family court law on divorce is quite different than actually application of the law:
This law, introduced in 2000, grants women the right to unilateral divorce in return for giving up financial rights and handing back the dowry. Yet in Osman's experience, at least, the law does not work in practice. Four times she appealed, four times she was refused; all her husband had to do was file a petition, citing any reason at all for the marriage to continue: "When family courts were established, last October, I thought my suffering was over. But it turned out to be a vicious circle: my case just keeps moving from one court to the next."
A year ago, he says, the process was far speedier; Khul' cases were resolved in no more than six months. With the family courts in place, no less than 20 months are required; indeed before the paperwork can even start, both parties must attend a 15-day "reconciliation course", with a sociologist and a psychologist. In practice this takes three months -- and procedures have not yet started by the end of it.
For his part Zaki attributes such delays to reluctance on the part of the judges: "The vast majority of them do not personally believe in khul' ; they think it's un-Islamic: just because it so happened that in the Prophet's lifetime a woman was granted khul' does not mean the practice should be generalised or legislated for. Unfortunately such legal illiteracy is rife among judges." Abdel-Hadi Ghozzi, another lawyer, agrees: such resistance is possible because the law was not accompanied by an explanatory document delineating its implementation; judges can choose not to apply the law the way they should. "For example," Ghozzi explains, "if either the sociologist or the psychologist is absent from court, that is a reason to adjourn.
This is modern divorce in Egypt, not the same as in 700 AD.
Fault divorces take alot of time, Khul divorces with "new" so-called improvements take almost as long but now many women don't have to turn over assets.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
Whatever sono, you know best. No need to start on the attacks again.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
But the procedure, known as "khulu , obliges the woman to forfeit all of her financial rights and also to return the dowry she received when they married, and the process can take up to six months.
Women can also resort to the older procedure of drawn-out litigation to keep some financial rights, but such court hearings are often seen as biased against them.
It can also be tortuous, as famously depicted in the 1975 film "I Want a Solution , in which a woman played by celebrated Egyptian actress Faten Hamama fought an excruciating battle for a divorce.
In contrast, it is easy for a man to divorce his wife. Official statistics back this up, showing that 80 percent of divorce cases are in fact instigated by men.
Saber herself was married for two years, and finds it ironic that she spent twice that time - four years - getting divorced.
Despite not following the khulu procedure, Saber still had to forfeit some of her financial rights in order to speed up the process and protect her five-year-old son from the turmoil of an even lengthier divorce case.
Even with the Talaaq divorce she still had to forfeit some of her financial rights. In Khul some women get to keep their rights.
Men don't have to show "fault" in their wives to divorce, and its traditional thus "Talaaq". Women traditional had to show fault, but used the same term for divorce "Talaaq".
Now in modern Egypt, not necessary along the lines of Islam Khul has been introduced as an 'innovation' its not tradition but a legal precedence.
It would be nice if women had equal rights in divorce, but they don't therefore women have two options. Traditional divorce "Talaaq" and non-traditional "khul".
quote:Anyway, the cost of the divorce depends on what was written in the original contract and who is 'at fault' regarding the divorce and whether the full mahr was paid or not.
Whats written in the original contract is normally paid upfront before deflowering of the bride on the wedding party night. Thus why marriage is 43 months of both son and father's wages.
Men never have to prove fault. Both women and men can intiate divorce.
But in order for a woman to intiate divorce and have it done more quickly she now has a legal option of Khul.
You Ayisha phrase your understanding of divorce in Egypt as if she has no right to intiate divorce and keep her fincial rights. WHich was never the case in Islam nor the family court law in Egypt.
As usual you chose to ignore the situation of Egyptian women in Egypt as they are no consequence to you and concentrate on your own situation. The tunnel vision is horrendous.
I've got to finish lunch. If you do read this I highly doubt you'd adjust your tunnel vision to a less narrow scope, its just not your habit.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
I am sure you are contacting Shumza II at this time or one or more of your posse will contact Shumza II to 'edit' or outright delete my postings on this thread.
Following through on a bias and then deleting all criticism of this bias will be an era of "censorship" only less than 18 months ago you yourself Ayisha had a problem with when Amr was a new mod. Yes I had a problem with Amr he wouldn't delete personal information, which Shumza II will.
But there will still be censorship on the behalf of a social ill with Egyptian want to throw out with Mubarak.
I fully expect this post and other posts of mine on this thread to be edited or outright deleted.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Whatever sono, you know best. No need to start on the attacks again.
There is a difference between debate and an attack.
If you were ever able to converse in a debate you'd be able to distinguish between a debate and an attack.
quote:Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor.
Yet you chose the name "Ayisha" for your reversion because you were so concerned with women's rights in Islam. Quite a turn around.
That is nothing to do with any debate, it is another attack, 'tis you that doesn't seem to know the difference.
quote:I am sure you are contacting Shumza II at this time or one or more of your posse will contact Shumza II to 'edit' or outright delete my postings on this thread.
Told you before, never contacted admin about you, I think you're funny, boring but funny
quote:Following through on a bias and then deleting all criticism of this bias will be an era of "censorship" only less than 18 months ago you yourself Ayisha had a problem with when Amr was a new mod.
yes I still do have a problem with censorship, that's why I don't report posts, you do report posts yet complain like crazy when you only think someone else will.
ramble on, I will read it later.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Whatever sono, you know best. No need to start on the attacks again.
There is a difference between debate and an attack.
If you were ever able to converse in a debate you'd be able to distinguish between a debate and an attack.
quote:Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor.
Yet you chose the name "Ayisha" for your reversion because you were so concerned with women's rights in Islam. Quite a turn around.
That is nothing to do with any debate, it is another attack, 'tis you that doesn't seem to know the difference.
Explain how copying and pasting information from an actual Egyptian source with Egyptian law to support my view is an attack.
Debate is when you state your opinion and then provide reasonable data to explain why you came to that conclusion.
An attack is ignoring any form of data and stating your opinion as fact sluring your statements with insults.
Debate:
Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument, which only examines consistency from axiom, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case or rhetoric which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.
Verbal abuse (also called reviling or verbal attack) is a form of abusive behavior involving the use of language. It is a form of profanity that can occur with or without the use of expletives. While oral communication is its most common form, verbal abuse may be expressed in the form of written word as well.
Verbal abuse is a pattern of behavior that can seriously interfere with a person's healthy emotional development. A single exposure to verbal assault can be enough to significantly affect a person's self-esteem, emotional well-being, and physical state.
Verbal abuse is best described as an ongoing emotional environment organized by the abuser for the purposes of control. The underlying factor in the dynamic of verbal abuse is the abuser’s low regard for him or herself. The abuser attempts to place their victim in a position to believe similar things about him or herself, a form of warped projection.
I obviously do know the difference between debate and verbal attack. Knowledge is not inherent, its learned. You must go outside of yourself and seek definitions. This is something you fail to do, "world according to Ayisha" is your default paradigm.
Now if you would argue, debate or explain how what I posted above is something other than debate.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Whatever sono, you know best. No need to start on the attacks again.
There is a difference between debate and an attack.
If you were ever able to converse in a debate you'd be able to distinguish between a debate and an attack.
quote:Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor.
Yet you chose the name "Ayisha" for your reversion because you were so concerned with women's rights in Islam. Quite a turn around.
That is nothing to do with any debate, it is another attack, 'tis you that doesn't seem to know the difference.
Explain how copying and pasting information from an actual Egyptian source with Egyptian law to support my view is an attack.
You are quoting the attack I am saying was an attack and you still don't see it. What has what you said above to do with the debate in question?
quote:An attack is ignoring any form of data and stating your opinion as fact sluring your statements with insults.
yes, like this you mean?
"Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor.
Yet you chose the name "Ayisha" for your reversion because you were so concerned with women's rights in Islam. Quite a turn around."
I made it bold incase you missed it.
quote:Verbal attack:
Verbal abuse (also called reviling or verbal attack) is a form of abusive behavior involving the use of language. It is a form of profanity that can occur with or without the use of expletives. While oral communication is its most common form, verbal abuse may be expressed in the form of written word as well.
Verbal abuse is a pattern of behavior that can seriously interfere with a person's healthy emotional development. A single exposure to verbal assault can be enough to significantly affect a person's self-esteem, emotional well-being, and physical state.
Verbal abuse is best described as an ongoing emotional environment organized by the abuser for the purposes of control. The underlying factor in the dynamic of verbal abuse is the abuser’s low regard for him or herself. The abuser attempts to place their victim in a position to believe similar things about him or herself, a form of warped projection.
I obviously do know the difference between debate and verbal attack. Knowledge is not inherent, its learned. You must go outside of yourself and seek definitions. This is something you fail to do, "world according to Ayisha" is your default paradigm.
Now if you would argue, debate or explain how what I posted above is something other than debate.
oh and there you go again! I will post it once more so you can consider what these comments have to do with this debate/discussion.
"Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor.
Yet you chose the name "Ayisha" for your reversion because you were so concerned with women's rights in Islam. Quite a turn around."
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor.
Yet you chose the name "Ayisha" for your reversion because you were so concerned with women's rights in Islam. Quite a turn around.
That is nothing to do with any debate, it is another attack, 'tis you that doesn't seem to know the difference.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Thats my response to :
quote: Sorry, still nothing that says she is asking about him divorcing his Egyptian wife, nothing there to say he even has one and as that post is 3 years old she could be asking about divorcing her.
Which this is my original statement:
quote: Anyhow it took you quite a few years to sell your hobbit cottage, and make the move to Luxor. Debs isn't on here much and it sounds like she's got a full career going in the west and cannot move to Egypt, therefore she needs to import the guy. In order to do this he'd have to be in the free and clear able to divorce and remarry at the MOJ. Debs never asked for details about marrying at the MOJ. Yes some "relationships" take that long, or he's just taking his time gouging her.
You do have a massive habit of taking statements out of context and repeatively doing so to wear someone out.
It took you over 3 years to move to Luxor. It has taken Debs 3 years to get her egyguy to talk about divorcing his wife.
posted
It's all there in writing what you replied to and the uncalled for attack on me, for anyone to see. It took me a lot less time to move to be with my husband than it's taking you to move as you said you were at the same time, but that is still nothing to do with this topic. If you wish to reply to topics over 3 years old then do that IN the topic thread they are in.
If you wish to attack me more then open a bash Ayisha thread and go for your life.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: It's all there in writing what you replied to and the uncalled for attack on me, for anyone to see. It took me a lot less time to move to be with my husband than it's taking you to move as you said you were at the same time, but that is still nothing to do with this topic. If you wish to reply to topics over 3 years old then do that IN the topic thread they are in.
If you wish to attack me more then open a bash Ayisha thread and go for your life.
I am not comparing my transition to Debs, I am comparing Debs transition to yours because her situation is similar to yours.
My situation is extremely different from Debs, yours and others.
You stated that the situation of Debs 3 years ago cannot be valid or have any connection with her posting this thread this week.
Besides you boast about being with two guys in 8 years, why would you want to slander Debs implying she's been with numerous egyguys in less than half the time?
I stated it took you years to move to Luxor after signing Orfi papers with your egy-guy.
Thats not an attack, thats context for why I posted the hyperlink to an old thread of hers. If I did post in a three year old thread then I'd be accused of drudging up old threads.
You are complaining now about being attacked, yet when I complain about your previous attacks on me about my family situation, you stated I deserved it. Kinda ironic isn't it?
Again please define "attack" versus "debate" in abstract terms. Actually define them seperate from the context of this thread.
You cannot use your feelings and opinions as a "definition", its mutually exclusive.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: It's all there in writing what you replied to and the uncalled for attack on me, for anyone to see. It took me a lot less time to move to be with my husband than it's taking you to move as you said you were at the same time, but that is still nothing to do with this topic. If you wish to reply to topics over 3 years old then do that IN the topic thread they are in.
If you wish to attack me more then open a bash Ayisha thread and go for your life.
I am not comparing my transition to Debs, I am comparing Debs transition to yours because her situation is similar to yours.
You are still assuming. Debs original post was "Just wanted to know if anyone has the ins and outs of an egyptian getting divorced, the cost etc."
her next post was "thanks mysticheart, have you got any idea on the cost of the divorce, or is that something that they settle on when they get married? "
Now nowhere in those posts does it say it is even anything to do with debs yet you have decided it's her fella, how old he is, how long he's been married to his Egyptian wife that he wants to divorce so he can marry Debs in the MOJ and move to her country as she has a full time career and can't move here, among other things you have assumed. This situation is nothing to do with mine, or yours, yet you have built up an entire fantasy life based on very little.
quote:My situation is extremely different from Debs, yours and others.
She asked the cost of divorce, thats ALL she asked.
quote:You stated that the situation of Debs 3 years ago cannot be valid or have any connection with her posting this thread this week.
No I did not state anything of the sort, you stated an entire fantasy, I stated you are assuming.
quote:Besides you boast about being with two guys in 8 years, why would you want to slander Debs implying she's been with numerous egyguys in less than half the time?
I have neither boasted about any guys and I have not implied anything slanderous about Debs.
quote:I stated it took you years to move to Luxor after signing Orfi papers with your egy-guy.
Nothing to do with this thread.
quote:Thats not an attack, thats context for why I posted the hyperlink to an old thread of hers. If I did post in a three year old thread then I'd be accused of drudging up old threads.
You are answering a 3 year old thread in this thread because you have assumed what debs is talking about.
quote:You are complaining now about being attacked, yet when I complain about your previous attacks on me about my family situation, you stated I deserved it. Kinda ironic isn't it?
Again, fantasy.
quote:Again please define "attack" versus "debate" in abstract terms. Actually define them seperate from the context of this thread.
You cannot use your feelings and opinions as a "definition", its mutually exclusive.
It is clear where the attack was, it was uncalled for and nothing to do with the thread.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: It's all there in writing what you replied to and the uncalled for attack on me, for anyone to see. It took me a lot less time to move to be with my husband than it's taking you to move as you said you were at the same time, but that is still nothing to do with this topic. If you wish to reply to topics over 3 years old then do that IN the topic thread they are in.
If you wish to attack me more then open a bash Ayisha thread and go for your life.
I am not comparing my transition to Debs, I am comparing Debs transition to yours because her situation is similar to yours.
You are still assuming. Debs original post was "Just wanted to know if anyone has the ins and outs of an egyptian getting divorced, the cost etc."
her next post was "thanks mysticheart, have you got any idea on the cost of the divorce, or is that something that they settle on when they get married? "
Now nowhere in those posts does it say it is even anything to do with debs yet you have decided it's her fella, how old he is, how long he's been married to his Egyptian wife that he wants to divorce so he can marry Debs in the MOJ and move to her country as she has a full time career and can't move here, among other things you have assumed. This situation is nothing to do with mine, or yours, yet you have built up an entire fantasy life based on very little.
quote:My situation is extremely different from Debs, yours and others.
She asked the cost of divorce, thats ALL she asked.
quote:You stated that the situation of Debs 3 years ago cannot be valid or have any connection with her posting this thread this week.
No I did not state anything of the sort, you stated an entire fantasy, I stated you are assuming.
quote:Besides you boast about being with two guys in 8 years, why would you want to slander Debs implying she's been with numerous egyguys in less than half the time?
I have neither boasted about any guys and I have not implied anything slanderous about Debs.
quote:I stated it took you years to move to Luxor after signing Orfi papers with your egy-guy.
Nothing to do with this thread.
quote:Thats not an attack, thats context for why I posted the hyperlink to an old thread of hers. If I did post in a three year old thread then I'd be accused of drudging up old threads.
You are answering a 3 year old thread in this thread because you have assumed what debs is talking about.
quote:You are complaining now about being attacked, yet when I complain about your previous attacks on me about my family situation, you stated I deserved it. Kinda ironic isn't it?
Again, fantasy.
quote:Again please define "attack" versus "debate" in abstract terms. Actually define them seperate from the context of this thread.
You cannot use your feelings and opinions as a "definition", its mutually exclusive.
It is clear where the attack was, it was uncalled for and nothing to do with the thread.
So your total lack of knowledge on the legal avenues of divorce in Egypt, and your unwillingness to provide any kind of information is what?
Seriously you took no interest in this thread before my post.
And while MH and ExpatinCAI had a similar understanding of Debs viewpoint you singled me out.
Just like you do in 2/3 of the threads I post to.
Seriously could you post in the same thread as I do and not go on the offensive?
Now until Debs clearly states who is being divorced and the nationality/s of the couple, you cannot issue your edict contrary to everyone else other than you and mickey.
Here lies your assumption.
Also if you would take the time to define debate and "attack" in terms other than this accusation. Seriously there has to be a dictionary of terms according to your paradigm since you appear to reject widely accepted definitions on an ad-hoc basis or personal whim.
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Here's proof that brides demanding the wedding contract Mahr upfront are also trying to avoid divorce.
Again when you are double the age of your man, and he relies on your financial assets not the other way around you won't understand why marriage in Egypt and divorce in Egypt is the way it is.
Hmmm. I find it amusing the way you trashed the British media in another and accused them of printing nothing but lies, yet you quote a story from a middle east publication which you deem to 100% accurate according to you.
FYI I know this company very well as I used to work for a rival publication when I was living in UAE and I know several people who still work for the National also most of their journalists are British. In fact dear know it all there are lots and lots of British journalists working for newspaper and magazine publishers in the UAE. I can't comment about anywhere else in the Middle East but I know this to be for a fact about the UAE. But of course as usual you know best cos you read it online. Life experiences don't count. Keep arguing with yourself it's amusing.
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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Here's proof that brides demanding the wedding contract Mahr upfront are also trying to avoid divorce.
Again when you are double the age of your man, and he relies on your financial assets not the other way around you won't understand why marriage in Egypt and divorce in Egypt is the way it is.
Hmmm. I find it amusing the way you trashed the British media in another and accused them of printing nothing but lies, yet you quote a story from a middle east publication which you deem to 100% accurate according to you.
FYI I know this company very well as I used to work for a rival publication when I was living in UAE and I know several people who still work for the National also most of their journalists are British. In fact dear know it all there are lots and lots of British journalists working for newspaper and magazine publishers in the UAE. I can't comment about anywhere else in the Middle East but I know this to be for a fact about the UAE. But of course as usual you know best cos you read it online. Life experiences don't count. Keep arguing with yourself it's amusing.
Actually in UK law the slandered has to prove the news publication or private person making the accusation was based on false information.
Plus UK persons and media doesn't have to divulge their sources in a defamation or slander litigation. The person slandered or defamed has to divulge whatever personal information the accuser requires.
Egyptian law and US law is the opposite. The slander or defamer has to prove their assertions and the slandered or defamed doesn't have to divulge further proof.
I never stated UK news media was pure lies, what I did state is UK news media doesn't differentiate between rumor and information that can be verified by sources.
See this is whats so odd about Brits, they refuse to acknowledge the laws of their nation are lacking in regards to journalism and slander.
if you did read the articles I posted, you'd notice "life experiences" from actual sources (names changed to protect sources) is supplied along with actual statements from court employees who guide family law policy.
"The National" might be syndicated in a nation other than the UK which might have tougher laws in regards to slander and defamation, thus why the article was written differently.
And "The National" wasn't the only news publication I copy and pasted. But the context and information in the news article by "The National" mirrors those of other news media based in Egypt.
I didn't state my "personal experiences" because I won't divulge personal information anymore. Nor would I divulge personal information of others who are dear to me. Boundaries and respect still count for something.
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Seriously you took no interest in this thread before my post.
please don't assume you are so important, I marely corrected a statement you made.
quote:And while MH and ExpatinCAI had a similar understanding of Debs viewpoint you singled me out.
MH didn't assume anything and ExPat said 'it reads like', you went ahead and made an entire life for the whole family but in doing so made an error regarding Mahr, which is where I came in and corrected you.
quote:Just like you do in 2/3 of the threads I post to.
odd perception, from my angle it seems you attack me or throw some form of personal insult towards me in every thread I post in and then try to claim it is to do with the thread.
quote:Seriously could you post in the same thread as I do and not go on the offensive?
Its called defensive and can you post in a thread and not go on the attack?
quote:Now until Debs clearly states who is being divorced and the nationality/s of the couple, you cannot issue your edict contrary to everyone else other than you and mickey.
the 'everyone else' is only you sono, ok you could possibly add Exp for saying 'it reads like' but you cannot issue your edict contrary to what has actually been stated by Debs either.
quote:Here lies your assumption.
right back at ya.
quote:Also if you would take the time to define debate and "attack" in terms other than this accusation. Seriously there has to be a dictionary of terms according to your paradigm since you appear to reject widely accepted definitions on an ad-hoc basis or personal whim.
Your definition was fine, only problem was that you didn't quite understand it or understand that you are attacking, you can't seem to help it.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I don't suppose it matters whether you give personal information anymore or not as your entire life/family/marriage/divorce history has already been written and posted on here by you previously. It's all there for anyone who cares to look for it. There can't be that much more to tell. Just because you no longer share your own experiences you shouldn't automatically discount others experiences just because you can't find a copy paste article about it doesn't mean it's not true.
Posts: 500 | From: United Arab Emirates | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Sono, I'm going to post it here because it would be inappropriate in the other thread. But I do find it funny that you find Lara Logan to be an outstanding journalist.
When interviewed she claimed that her greatest achievement was managing to keep long hair and makeup in a warzone...
posted
Looking back, micky was attacked by you as soon as she posted, I was attacked and even debs hasn't been back since you posted your first post in here with assumptions on what debs was asking, sono. Expat said 'it reads like you have an Egyptian friend who is divorcing his Egyptian wife' which could mean just a friend, which we all have Egyptian friends.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Sono, I'm going to post it here because it would be inappropriate in the other thread. But I do find it funny that you find Lara Logan to be an outstanding journalist.
When interviewed she claimed that her greatest achievement was managing to keep long hair and makeup in a warzone...
But the "lara logan" war aka character assassination thread has been "cleaned" therefore where you can continue your ongoing jealous rant?
Whats funny is Lara was using "self-deprecating humor", something ugly uneducated people don't practice because they take themselves too seriously.
While a local reporter "Don Shelby" had been stationed in Iraq reporting in a similar manner to Lara who was also in Iraq, Don noted that "even during the middle of a war the make up artist manages to have more supplies and tools of the trade at her disposal than many of the marines."
I am not strictly paraphrasing Don Shelby's comments, but you get the jist of his sentiments.
Lara Logan managed to make a similar comment without dissing a crew member.
Is that understandable to you?
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Sono, I'm going to post it here because it would be inappropriate in the other thread. But I do find it funny that you find Lara Logan to be an outstanding journalist.
When interviewed she claimed that her greatest achievement was managing to keep long hair and makeup in a warzone...
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Looking back, micky was attacked by you as soon as she posted, I was attacked and even debs hasn't been back since you posted your first post in here with assumptions on what debs was asking, sono. Expat said 'it reads like you have an Egyptian friend who is divorcing his Egyptian wife' which could mean just a friend, which we all have Egyptian friends.
You mean this post:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: i know when my BIL got divorced, he had to pay lots.had to buy furniture for the living room and TV , etc...she bled him dry, and there were NO children involved
Never ever read this from you before. You are just bringing this up now.
Kinda like on a Friday or Saturday night past 7pm EST you are on ES "battling" but at any moment your love interest is going to take you out to dinner, and then watch a move and "cuddle".
And she called me an evil witch for my efforts.
micky leaves out notable details, like whether the wife was Egyptian, whether the wife or husband filed for divorce and whether she actually managed to get the court to enforce its judgement against the husband.
Not unlike how Debs left out the same details to put her question into a context which she can get actual answers.
Clearly the act of leaving out key details to recieve a useful response is an act of self-preservation.
Lastly who paid, if anyone paid the ex-wife.
Plenty of details missing, and if it was that vivid and real of an experience you don't leave out those details.
Plus if the BIL wanted to get married again, especially get married to a foreigner he would not be cleared by the foreign service office or the foreign embassy to be granted a spousal visa or to even have the marriage recognized.
If the BIL wanted to marry an Egyptian woman, or have an orfi marriage with a foreigner then he wouldn't be put under so much urgency to pay the ex wife.
again I got called an evil witch without mentioning any of the above missing details. I was actually being gentle.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Whats funny is Lara was using "self-deprecating humor", something ugly uneducated people don't practice because they take themselves too seriously.
ROFLMAO sorry, just had to comment here. Is this why you have NEVER shown any form of humour on here, or anywhere? You have a zero humour gene, zilch, nil, nada, this must be why lol that really made me laugh though, such a pity you don't see that. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dubai Girl: I don't suppose it matters whether you give personal information anymore or not as your entire life/family/marriage/divorce history has already been written and posted on here by you previously. It's all there for anyone who cares to look for it. There can't be that much more to tell. Just because you no longer share your own experiences you shouldn't automatically discount others experiences just because you can't find a copy paste article about it doesn't mean it's not true.
Problem is the same group of women who join a thread to "battle" against what I have stated often pull "personal experiences" out of thin air to justify their "battles".
I have a problem taking people on their word when they have a history of deception, rehashing "personal experiences" with contradictory details to suit whatever current "battle" they are waging.
I posted articles, with real person sources, and comments from actual bureaucrats.
yet no one has bothered to put their "personal experiences" within the context of words written and verified by persons who are not involved in this current "battle".
I have a difficult time believing these "personal experiences" when they are rare, exceptional and almost hollywood like quality to them. Like a tigerlily story.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Whats funny is Lara was using "self-deprecating humor", something ugly uneducated people don't practice because they take themselves too seriously.
ROFLMAO sorry, just had to comment here. Is this why you have NEVER shown any form of humour on here, or anywhere? You have a zero humour gene, zilch, nil, nada, this must be why lol that really made me laugh though, such a pity you don't see that.
Actually I have. I have noted I am clumsy, I have hearing difficulties, I friend my hair during my first visit to Egypt as well as turning into a lobster from sunburn.
I have made numerous self-deprecating remarks, while you spend more time insulting me personally and will not admit to having any personal faults.
whats strange is you actually have used some of those self-deprecating remarks as leverage/insults against me in your "battles".
Now you actually forget when its convenient.
Posts: 2280 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: And she called me an evil witch for my efforts.
you attacked her, there was no need for it.
quote:micky leaves out notable details, like whether the wife was Egyptian, whether the wife or husband filed for divorce and whether she actually managed to get the court to enforce its judgement against the husband.
Lastly who paid, if anyone paid the ex-wife.
Plenty of details missing, and if it was that vivid and real of an experience you don't leave out those details.
Those details were not asked for by the original post and are not needed by anyone but you, malekshi dowa (sp)
quote:Plus if the BIL wanted to get married again, especially get married to a foreigner he would not be cleared by the foreign service office or the foreign embassy to be granted a spousal visa or to even have the marriage recognized.
Wrong, but still nothing to do with the original post.
quote:If the BIL wanted to marry an Egyptian woman, or have an orfi marriage with a foreigner then he wouldn't be put under so much urgency to pay the ex wife.
wrong, but again, nothing to do with the original post.
quote:again I got called an evil witch without mentioning any of the above missing details. I was actually being gentle.
they were not missing details, they were not relevant to the original post. you attacked her and now you're saying it was because she missed out details that were nothing to do with the original post.
I should probably now fill in the details that I am wearing black trousers, grey shirt, black socks sitting on a red chair at my computer desk next to the long table, about 2 metres in length with a red cloth on and a lace one over that typing on a wireless keyboard looking at my Dell monitor connected to my Toshiba laptop.
Oh and a Nescafe red mug beside the monitor.
you need underwear details to make that complete?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Whats funny is Lara was using "self-deprecating humor", something ugly uneducated people don't practice because they take themselves too seriously.
ROFLMAO sorry, just had to comment here. Is this why you have NEVER shown any form of humour on here, or anywhere? You have a zero humour gene, zilch, nil, nada, this must be why lol that really made me laugh though, such a pity you don't see that.
Actually I have. I have noted I am clumsy, I have hearing difficulties, I friend my hair during my first visit to Egypt as well as turning into a lobster from sunburn.
I have made numerous self-deprecating remarks, while you spend more time insulting me personally and will not admit to having any personal faults.
whats strange is you actually have used some of those self-deprecating remarks as leverage/insults against me in your "battles".
Now you actually forget when its convenient.
sorry, should have been more clear than just typing that I was referring to HUMOUR, not remarks, HUMOUR which was stated.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by metinoot: And she called me an evil witch for my efforts.
you attacked her, there was no need for it.
quote:micky leaves out notable details, like whether the wife was Egyptian, whether the wife or husband filed for divorce and whether she actually managed to get the court to enforce its judgement against the husband.
Lastly who paid, if anyone paid the ex-wife.
Plenty of details missing, and if it was that vivid and real of an experience you don't leave out those details.
Those details were not asked for by the original post and are not needed by anyone but you, malekshi dowa (sp)
quote:Plus if the BIL wanted to get married again, especially get married to a foreigner he would not be cleared by the foreign service office or the foreign embassy to be granted a spousal visa or to even have the marriage recognized.
Wrong, but still nothing to do with the original post.
quote:If the BIL wanted to marry an Egyptian woman, or have an orfi marriage with a foreigner then he wouldn't be put under so much urgency to pay the ex wife.
wrong, but again, nothing to do with the original post.
quote:again I got called an evil witch without mentioning any of the above missing details. I was actually being gentle.
they were not missing details, they were not relevant to the original post. you attacked her and now you're saying it was because she missed out details that were nothing to do with the original post.
I should probably now fill in the details that I am wearing black trousers, grey shirt, black socks sitting on a red chair at my computer desk next to the long table, about 2 metres in length with a red cloth on and a lace one over that typing on a wireless keyboard looking at my Dell monitor connected to my Toshiba laptop.
Oh and a Nescafe red mug beside the monitor.
you need underwear details to make that complete?
the essential part of debating is explaining how you came to your conclusion.
the rest is noting fact and indicating your opinion.
You continue to state your opinion as fact without explaining why you feel your opinion is fact.
when you declare someone is wrong, then you need to explain why and what the correct information is.
Otherwise you are shuting down a debate because you cannot argue your point because you don't have information to prove anything.
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