better yet, gaze your eyes up this thread and actually answer the dozen or so questions put to you by wally, obenga, myself, ausar and others.

we will hold our breath while awaiting the answers.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Neo: since the error was my fault, i would think you would aim your petty personal attack at me.

better yet, gaze your eyes up this thread and actually answer the dozen or so questions put to you by wally, obenga, myself, ausar and others.

we will hold our breath while awaiting the answers.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 25 June 2004).]

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How about you tell me which questions I haven't answered and I'll will respond to each specifically...

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Originally posted by rasol:
nope. you should have done that from the start, then you would not be in this sad position. sorry do your own dirty work.

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
I was being fair by asking which questions I haven't answered. As far as I'm concerned, I've answered all questions asked.

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
If khemet meant black people why didn't they apply the term to other parts of Africa where blacks were known to exist? Why did they use different names for the Nubians(Nehesy)?

I'm not trying to mess with you, I have just seen few places in Africa where people used skin color to identify themselves until those names were given to them by Arabs(Sudan) or Europeans. The Western European social rules for race which are still rampant in the US today didn't exist 5000 years ago. They had different standards for race and from their own images it seems they saw themselves as different from Asiatics, Indo-Europeans, and other Africans. And by "different" I mean unique.

[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 25 June 2004).]

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The arabic terms for blackness mean different things that what people think. Plenty of Arabs around the Gulf area look like African Americans including Bandar Bin Sultan but none would be called iswad[black]. When Arabs refer to somebody as Iswad they mean somebody that is extremely black like the southern Sudanese. Even amungst the southern Sudanese there are people who would not be Iswad.

You have to look at it from the perpective from the person who is giving the description.

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Supercar,he is talking about the term Sudan which Arabs reffer to most parts of Africa as Bilad Al Sudan. Contrary to popular belief that Arabic word Sudan did not internally mean black,for it comes from the word Sudd which meant blockage in Arabic. This term reffered to the impassable swamp around southern Sudan.

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Ausar: This is disputable since it is also said that Sudan is derived from the Kemetian 'Suten'which is interpreted as Southerners.

I personally think it may be derived from both, in terms of how it came to mean Land of the Blacks but I am no etymologist and don't pretend to be.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Ausar: This is disputable since it is also said that Sudan is derived from the Kemetian 'Suten'which is interpreted as Southerners.

I personally think it may be derived from both, in terms of how it came to mean Land of the Blacks but I am no etymologist and don't pretend to be.

But whether it is rooted in Kemetian "Southerners" or Arabic "blockage" it still came to mean Land of the Blacks in Arabic, so I am not sure what your point is here? ? ?

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'Suten' in Kemetian means 'the South, southern'

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Thank God things are much simpler in the USA, there must be a thousand racial descriptions in Africa according to you guys. Imagine if in America we were like:

He's Black, but she's cocoa brown, and she is copper toned, but he is tan, she is butter pecan, no she is mahoganney, wait a minute, she's actually coffee brown, wrong she's caramel colored, or is it cappachino,.....our race will be unlimited...LMAO

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Supercar, I was trying to be funny, lighten up okay?

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I don't understand the point either, but you are correct. The Arabic term 'Bilad as Suud' means 'Land of the Blacks'; as in most languages, Arabic has synonyms, so there are several words for "black."
Bilad = Land
as = of
Sud;Suud = Black people

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On another group I frequent the people often said since the Arabs refered to lands south of Egypt Bilad al Sudan then why did they never bother to called Egypt this then. What many failed to mention was that Arabic references to the dark skin of the people of Saeed[Upper Egypt] was attested by Al-Jahiz around the 800's and by an Iraqi Arab historian named Abd Al Lufti around in 1200's so apparently Arab authors were quite aware of the black Upper Egyptian population.

See the following:

It is at this point that the Name the Sudan, meaning "The land of the Blacks" takes shape as a political entity. The name Sudan may also come from the Arabic word "Sudd" ,blockage in English, referring to the nearly impenetrable papyrus swamp in the Southern Nile valley region of the Sudan.

http://www.courses.rochester.edu/homerin/REL247/Class/sudan/noframes/fdn_myth.html

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Originally posted by supercar:
Neo, I hope there is a typo in this comment, because Sudanese are by no means Arabs. They speak Arabic, but they are not Arabs.

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The Sudanese Arabs originated in the Khartoum region of Sudan many centuries ago. Today, they live primarily in northern and central Sudan, and in Egypt. A few groups are also scattered in Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, Libya, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates.

The first "pure" Arabs were called "Bedouins." They were tribal nomads from Saudi Arabia, famous for their love of poetry and war. The Sudanese are a tribe who branched off of the Bedouins. They are a heterogeneous people with a mixture of diverse blood and cultures. Their native language is called Sudani or Khartoum Arabic, and is a dialect of Arabic.

The ability to speak Arabic, or one of its dialects, has long been a unifying factor among the Arab people. The fact that most Arabs are Muslims has also served to unify them. The Islamic religion, which developed during the seventh century, gave the Arab-speaking villagers and the nomadic Bedouins common ground. Over the centuries, Arab Muslims have traveled across the Middle East and North Africa, spreading Islam to all who would accept it.

What are their lives?
Over the years, many "Arabs" have emerged by either assimilating into Arab culture, religion, and language, or by intermarrying with Mongoloid or Negroid groups in their areas. The Sudanese Arabs have intermarried with the African tribes of Sudan, giving them a darker skin tone and some Negroid features.

Most Sudanese Arabs live in small rural villages. They grow grains, vegetables, and cotton, and raise livestock, all of which are used for food or trade. Clusters of mud-brick homes with dirt floors make up the villages. The homes are built close together, which reflects the close ties between the family members within the communities. Although farming is the chief occupation of the villagers, some of them have jobs as skilled carpenters, tailors, religious leaders, or barbers.

Some Sudanese Arabs live in towns or cities. They have a greater variety of occupations, but weaker family ties, than those who live in the villages. These Arabs have more concern for such things as economic prosperity and education.

Other Sudanese Arabs have continued living the nomadic lifestyle of their ancestors. They have temporary dwellings and move from place to place with their herds. Camels are used to transport them across desert lands, and their economy is based primarily on stock breeding and trade.

Whether villagers, city-dwellers, or nomads, the Sudanese Arabs have emerged as a people with the ability to assimilate into a changing society. Today, many of them work in the oil fields of Saudi Arabia, attend universities in neighboring countries, or use trucks instead of camels. However, through these and other changes, a single thread continues to bind all Arabs together: a common cultural heritage. The values and traditional practices of the ancient Bedouins have been carried over into the lifestyles of the Sudanese Arabs; and today, they possess many aspects of pure Arab culture. Rigid codes of honor, loyalty, hostility, and hospitality are among those that have remained strong throughout the centuries.

In the Arab culture, children are considered to be a family's greatest asset, providing both workers and security for the parents as they grow older. Although boys and girls may be raised together when they are young, they are treated differently. Mothers show great affection towards the boys, pampering them and responding to their every wish. Girls are shown some affection, but are not pampered. The boys are taught by their fathers to obey and respect older males. Girls are taught the values of obedience to their future husbands. Teenagers are not permitted to have any contact with the opposite sex until after marriage.

While the men gather in the local mosque five times a day for prayer, the women meet in homes and have their own religious services, conducted by female religious leaders. Only on certain occasions are the women permitted inside the mosques.

What are their beliefs?
The Sudanese Arabs are Muslims, as are most Arabs. Identification with the Islamic religion is one of the primary cultural characteristics of all Arabs. They are devoted to their faith, and this is evident in their daily lives.

According to Islamic law, a man may have up to four wives. Rules concerning marriage and divorce are held in accordance to what is written in the Koran. Regulations regarding inheritance, taxation, wartime, submission to those in authority, and the roles of family members can also be found in the Koran.

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
The Sudanese Arabs originated in the Khartoum region of Sudan many centuries ago. Today, they live primarily in northern and central Sudan, and in Egypt. A few groups are also scattered in Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia, Libya, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates.

The first "pure" Arabs were called "Bedouins." They were tribal nomads from Saudi Arabia, famous for their love of poetry and war. The Sudanese are a tribe who branched off of the Bedouins. They are a heterogeneous people with a mixture of diverse blood and cultures. Their native language is called Sudani or Khartoum Arabic, and is a dialect of Arabic.

The ability to speak Arabic, or one of its dialects, has long been a unifying factor among the Arab people. The fact that most Arabs are Muslims has also served to unify them. The Islamic religion, which developed during the seventh century, gave the Arab-speaking villagers and the nomadic Bedouins common ground. Over the centuries, Arab Muslims have traveled across the Middle East and North Africa, spreading Islam to all who would accept it.

What are their lives?
Over the years, many "Arabs" have emerged by either assimilating into Arab culture, religion, and language, or by intermarrying with Mongoloid or Negroid groups in their areas. The Sudanese Arabs have intermarried with the African tribes of Sudan, giving them a darker skin tone and some Negroid features.

Most Sudanese Arabs live in small rural villages. They grow grains, vegetables, and cotton, and raise livestock, all of which are used for food or trade. Clusters of mud-brick homes with dirt floors make up the villages. The homes are built close together, which reflects the close ties between the family members within the communities. Although farming is the chief occupation of the villagers, some of them have jobs as skilled carpenters, tailors, religious leaders, or barbers.

Some Sudanese Arabs live in towns or cities. They have a greater variety of occupations, but weaker family ties, than those who live in the villages. These Arabs have more concern for such things as economic prosperity and education.

Other Sudanese Arabs have continued living the nomadic lifestyle of their ancestors. They have temporary dwellings and move from place to place with their herds. Camels are used to transport them across desert lands, and their economy is based primarily on stock breeding and trade.

Whether villagers, city-dwellers, or nomads, the Sudanese Arabs have emerged as a people with the ability to assimilate into a changing society. Today, many of them work in the oil fields of Saudi Arabia, attend universities in neighboring countries, or use trucks instead of camels. However, through these and other changes, a single thread continues to bind all Arabs together: a common cultural heritage. The values and traditional practices of the ancient Bedouins have been carried over into the lifestyles of the Sudanese Arabs; and today, they possess many aspects of pure Arab culture. Rigid codes of honor, loyalty, hostility, and hospitality are among those that have remained strong throughout the centuries.

In the Arab culture, children are considered to be a family's greatest asset, providing both workers and security for the parents as they grow older. Although boys and girls may be raised together when they are young, they are treated differently. Mothers show great affection towards the boys, pampering them and responding to their every wish. Girls are shown some affection, but are not pampered. The boys are taught by their fathers to obey and respect older males. Girls are taught the values of obedience to their future husbands. Teenagers are not permitted to have any contact with the opposite sex until after marriage.

While the men gather in the local mosque five times a day for prayer, the women meet in homes and have their own religious services, conducted by female religious leaders. Only on certain occasions are the women permitted inside the mosques.

What are their beliefs?
The Sudanese Arabs are Muslims, as are most Arabs. Identification with the Islamic religion is one of the primary cultural characteristics of all Arabs. They are devoted to their faith, and this is evident in their daily lives.

According to Islamic law, a man may have up to four wives. Rules concerning marriage and divorce are held in accordance to what is written in the Koran. Regulations regarding inheritance, taxation, wartime, submission to those in authority, and the roles of family members can also be found in the Koran.

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By the way, the Sudanese friends I am speaking of are not the jet black ones!

In Egpyt too, people will argue long and hard over who is and who is not an Arab and what it means to be Arab.

Arab is somewhat similar to the the Americas concept of Hispanic, which could mean someone partly to mostly of Southern European extraction; or a full blooded Indian, or Mestizo mixtures of both.... not to mention Hispanics of African extraction.
The only 'rule' for being Hispanic is speaking Spanish.

The Libyan and Sudanese dialects of Arabic are not quite different from each other. Some tribes like the Baggara and Jaaliyian are arabized tribes that claim they are pure Arabs.

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Originally posted by supercar:

You are the only person I know of, who considers Sudanese Arabs. Are you telling me Nubians were Arabs? Sudanese people are direct descendants of this race. Even Westerners don't dare call Nubians anything else other than 'black' Africans. You, yourself said that these Arab Bedouins or nomads were not indigenous to Sudan, which means they are not real Sudanese, just foreigners who arrived [b]"centuries ago". I am sure there are a few Arab Bedouins among Sudanese, and in some cases may have intermingled, but not in significant numbers enough to warrant Sudan a heterogeneous society. Sudanese are still very much predominantly Negro people, including the jet-black ones further south. These jet black Africans even extend to a portion of modern day Ethiopia, in a region called Gambela. There hasn't been much racial change in Sudan, almost like that in Upper Egypt. You seem to have the idea that because there are a few Arabs within a country, and that people speak Arabic, this suddenly makes them Arabs. If you tell most Sudanese that they are Arabs, you'll probably get laughed at! I have some Sudanese friends stationed in Denver-Colorado, who never identify themselves with Arabs. In fact, most speak of their cultural similarities with Ethiopians. For instance, I was told that they even eat "Injerra" made from "Teff", a name for Ethiopian food. Please do yourself a favor, and not speak of Sudanese as Arabs.

By the way, the Sudanese friends I am speaking of are not the jet black ones!

[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 28 June 2004).][/B]

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Are u crazy ??? I have some Sudanese friends too and they consider themselves to be ARABS.And other Arabs who I know consider them also to be ARABS. Maybe your friends are Nubians, Beja of Fur but their opinions about "sudanese" identity are certainly not common view in the North of Sudan.

Read this:

The Sudanese Arabs

The Sudanese Arabs find their heritage in the Bedouin who wandered the deserts of Saudi Arabia centuries ago. They are now a diverse group of 16 million people who find their commonality in the language of Arabic and the religion of the Islamic prophet Mohammed. The largest people group living in the North African country of Sudan, they have spread throughout the countries of North Africa and the Middle East, but a majority can be found living in either Sudan or Egypt. While three million of those living in Sudan belong to the supratribes of the Jahayna or Jaaliyin, the rest can be found primarily by their self-identification as an Arab from Sudan, rather than as a member of a specific tribe or people group. The single thread of a common culture binds these Sudanese Arabs with other Arabs from around the world. Aspects of pure Arab life, such as rigid codes of honor, loyalty and hospitality, have remained strong in the Sudanese Arab culture.

Their Lifestyle

Although some Sudanese Arabs have continued living in the nomadic style of their ancestors and others live in urbanized towns, the majority live in small rural villages, where they grow grains, vegetables and cotton and raise livestock. Although farming is the chief occupation of the villagers, some have jobs as religious leaders or skilled carpenters or tailors.

The role of men in the Sudanese Arab society, as in all other Arabic cultures, is extremely important. Children, and especially male children, are highly valued. Women are in a subservient position but are more liberal and dress more freely than many of their counterparts around the world.

As with other Arabic societies, hospitality is an important part of the culture. One characteristic of Sudanese Arab culture is the coffee ceremony, which welcomes guests by serving them coffee in an elaborate presentation.

Their Religion

Islam is the religion of the majority of Arabs, and like their counterparts, most Sudanese Arabs devoutly embrace the Islamic faith. It is very common to find them stopping and bowing to pray whenever the call to prayer is heard, whether they are on the roadside or in their shop or business. They also practice the other four pillars of Islam, including the ritual fasting and the pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca. The rules that govern society, including regulations concerning marriage, divorce, inheritance, taxation and warfare, are all found in Islam’s holy book, the Koran.

The historical link between Arabs and the Muslim religion is still strong. There are few Sudanese Arab Christians, and converts are not well-accepted. While there have been Christian workers in Sudan for many years, most concentrate on reaching Southern Sudanese and neglect the country’s Muslim majority.
http://www.sudan101.com/sud_arabs.htm

The population of Sudan is divided into 19 ethnic groups, with 597 subgroups.
In addition to the typical ethnic division lines, are there one which is defined as Arabs and non-Arabs. The definition of who is and who is not Arab is based upon cultural identity and use of Arabic as mother tongue. Inside the group of Arabs many belong to ethnic groups with constitute many non-Arabs. The percentage of Arabs is hard to define. They constituted 39% of the entire population in 1956, the last time a census dealing with ethnicity was recorded. Looking at the figures for Arabic speakers, this figure appears to have risen to more than 50%. The reasons for this growth is probably connected to the cultural, economical and political dominance of Arabs in the Sudanese society, and the fact that it accepted that anyone can embrace Arabic culture and language.
Using 1956 figures, the Dinka ethnic group made up 12% of the population, a figure that appears to have gone down since then. The Beja made up 7%, also a figure that probably has gone down.
The Nubians are Muslims, but do not consider themselves Arabs, nor are are they registered as such. Living in the north of Sudan and the south of Egypt, they are fluent in Arabic as a second language.
The peoples of the south are generally classified as Nilotes, different black peoples. The largest groups among the Nilotic peoples are the Dinka, Nuer and Shilluk. These groups represents about 15% of Sudan's total population.
Sudan has seen a substantial immigration over a long period of time. Today West-African peoples like Hausa, Fulani and Borno represent more than 10% of the population. West Africans are collectively denoted Fellata in Sudan.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/sudan_4.htm

Sudan
The Muslim Peoples
Arabs
In the early 1990s, the largest single category among the Muslim peoples consisted of those speaking some form of Arabic. Excluded were a small number of Arabic speakers originating in Egypt and professing Coptic Christianity. In 1983 the people identified as Arabs constituted nearly 40 percent of the total Sudanese population and nearly 55 percent of the population of the northern provinces. In some of these provinces (Al Khartum, Ash Shamali, Al Awsat), they were overwhelmingly dominant. In others (Kurdufan, Darfur), they were less so but made up a majority. By 1990 Ash Sharqi State was probably largely Arab. It should be emphasized, however, that the acquisition of Arabic as a second language did not necessarily lead to the assumption of Arab identity.

Despite common language, religion, and self-identification, Arabs did not constitute a cohesive group. They were highly differentiated in their modes of livelihood and ways of life. Besides the major distinction dividing Arabs into sedentary and nomadic, there was an old tradition that assigned them to tribes, each said to have a common ancestor.

The two largest of the supratribal categories in the early 1990s were the Juhayna and the Jaali (or Jaalayin). The Juhayna category consisted of tribes considered nomadic, although many had become fully settled. The Jaali encompassed the riverine, sedentary peoples from Dunqulah to just north of Khartoum and members of this group who had moved elsewhere. Some of its groups had become sedentary only in the twentieth century. Sudanese saw the Jaali as primarily indigenous peoples who were gradually arabized. Sudanese thought the Juhayna were less mixed, although some Juhayna groups had become more diverse by absorbing indigenous peoples. The Baqqara, for example, who moved south and west and encountered the Negroid peoples of those areas were scarcely to be distinguished from them.

A third supratribal division of some importance was the Kawahla, consisting of thirteen tribes of varying size. Of these, eight tribes and segments of the other five were found north and west of Khartoum. There people were more heavily dependent on pastoralism than were the segments of the other five tribes, who lived on either side of the White Nile from south of Khartoum to north of Kusti. This cluster of five groups (for practical purposes independent tribes) exhibited a considerable degree of self-awareness and cohesion in some circumstances, although that had not precluded intertribal competition for local power and status.

The ashraf (sing., sharif), who claim descent from the Prophet Muhammad, were found in small groups (lineages) scattered among other Arabs. Most of these lineages had been founded by religious teachers or their descendants. A very small group of descendants of the Funj Dynasty also claimed descent from the Ummayyads, an early dynasty of caliphs based in present- day Syria. That claim had little foundation, but it served to separate from other Arabs a small group living on or between the White Nile and the Blue Nile. The term ashraf was also applied in Sudan to the family of Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah, known as the Mahdi (1848-85; see The Mahdiyah , ch. 1).

The division into Jaali and Juhayna did not appear to have significant effect on the ways in which individuals and groups regarded each other. Conflicts between tribes generally arose from competition for good grazing land, or from the competing demands of nomadic and sedentary tribes on the environment. Among nomadic and recently sedentary Arabs, tribes and subtribes competed for local power (see The Social Order , this ch.).

Membership in tribal and subtribal units is generally by birth, but individuals and groups may also join these units by adoption, clientship, or a decision to live and behave in a certain way. For example, when a sedentary Fur becomes a cattle nomad, he is perceived as a Baqqara. Eventually the descendants of such newcomers are regarded as belonging to the group by birth.

Tribal and subtribal units divide the Arab ethnic category vertically, but other distinctions cut across Arab society and its tribal and subtribal components horizontally by differences of social status and power. Still another division is that of religious associations (see Islamic Movements and Religious Orders , this ch.).

Nubians
In the early 1990s, the Nubians were the second most significant Muslim group in Sudan, their homeland being the Nile River valley in far northern Sudan and southern Egypt. Other, much smaller groups speaking a related language and claiming a link with the Nile Nubians have been given local names, such as the Birqid and the Meidab in Darfur State (see fig. 5). Almost all Nile Nubians speak Arabic as a second language; some near Dunqulah have been largely arabized and are referred to as Dunqulah.

Figure 5. Principal Ethnolinguistic Groups, 1991

In the mid-1960s, in anticipation of the flooding of their lands after the construction of the Aswan High Dam, 35,000 to 50,000 Nile Nubians resettled at Khashm al Qirbah on the Atbarah River in what was then Kassala Province. It is not clear how many Nubians remained in the Nile Valley. Even before the resettlement, many had left the valley for varying lengths of time to work in the towns, although most sought to maintain a link with their traditional homeland. In the 1955-56 census, more Nile Nubians were counted in Al Khartum Province than in the Nubian country to the north. A similar pattern of work in the towns was apparently followed by those resettled at Khashm al Qirbah. Many Nubians there retained their tenancies, having kin oversee the land and hiring non-Nubians to work it. The Nubians, often with their families, worked in Khartoum, the town of Kassala, and Port Sudan in jobs ranging from domestic service and semi-skilled labor to teaching and civil service, which required literacy. Despite their knowledge of Arabic and their devotion to Islam, Nubians retained a considerable self-consciousness and tended to maintain tightly knit communities of their own in the towns.

Beja
The Beja probably have lived in the Red Sea Hills since ancient times. Arab influence was not significant until a millennium or so ago, but it has since led the Beja to adopt Islam and genealogies that link them to Arab ancestors, to arabize their names, and to include many Arabic terms in their language. Although some Arabs figure in the ancestry of the Beja, the group is mostly descended from an indigenous population, and they have not become generally arabized. Their language (Bedawiye) links them to Cushitic-speaking peoples farther south.

In the 1990s, most Beja belonged to one of four groups--the Bisharin, the Amarar, the Hadendowa, and the Bani Amir. The largest group was the Hadendowa, but the Bisharin had the most territory, with settled tribes living on the Atbarah River in the far south of the Beja range and nomads living in the north. A good number of the Hadendowa were also settled and engaged in agriculture, particularly in the coastal region near Tawkar, but many remained nomads. The Amarar, living in the central part of the Beja range, seemed to be largely nomads, as were the second largest group, the Bani Amir, who lived along the border with northern Ethiopia. The precise proportion of nomads in the Beja population in the early 1990s was not known, but it was far greater relatively than the nomadic component of the Arab population. The Beja were characterized as conservative, proud, and aloof even toward other Beja and very reticent in relations with strangers. They were long reluctant to accept the authority of central governments.

Fur
The Fur, ruled until 1916 by an independent sultanate and oriented politically and culturally to peoples in Chad, were a sedentary, cultivating group long settled on and around the Jabal Marrah. Although the ruling dynasty and the peoples of the area had long been Muslims, they have not been arabized. Livestock has played a small part in the subsistence of most Fur. Those who acquired a substantial herd of cattle could maintain it only by living like the neighboring Baqqara Arabs, and those who persisted in this pattern eventually came to be thought of as Baqqara.

Zaghawa
Living on the plateau north of the Fur were the seminomadic people calling themselves Beri and known to the Arabs as Zaghawa. Large numbers of the group lived in Chad. Herders of cattle, camels, sheep, and goats, the Zaghawa also gained a substantial part of their livelihood by gathering wild grains and other products. Cultivation had become increasingly important but remained risky, and the people reverted to gathering in times of drought. Converted to Islam, the Zaghawa nevertheless retain much of their traditional religious orientation.

Masalit, Daju, and Berti
Of other peoples living in Darfur in the 1990s who spoke Nilo-Saharan languages and were at least nominally Muslim, the most important were the Masalit, Daju, and Berti. All were primarily cultivators living in permanent villages, but they practiced animal husbandry in varying degrees. The Masalit, living on the Sudan-Chad border, were the largest group. Historically under a minor sultanate, they were positioned between the two dominant sultanates of the area, Darfur and Wadai (in Chad). A part of the territory they occupied had been formerly controlled by the Fur, but the Masalit gradually encroached on it in the first half of the twentieth century in a series of local skirmishes carried out by villages on both sides, rather than the sultanates. In 1990-91 much of Darfur was in a state of anarchy, with many villages being attacked. There were many instances in which Masalit militias attacked Fur and other villages (see Western Sudan , ch. 4).

The Berti consisted of two groups. One lived northeast of Al Fashir; the other had migrated to eastern Darfur and western Kurdufan provinces in the nineteenth century. The two Berti groups did not seem to share a sense of common identity and interest. Members of the western group, in addition to cultivating subsistence crops and practicing animal husbandry, gathered gum arabic for sale in local markets. The Berti tongue had largely given way to Arabic as a home language.

The term Daju was a linguistic designation that was applied to a number of groups scattered from western Kurdufan and southwestern Darfur states to eastern Chad. These groups called themselves by different names and exhibited no sense of common identity.

West Africans
Living in Sudan in 1990 were nearly a million people of West African origin. Together, West Africans who have become Sudanese nationals and resident nonnationals from West Africa made up 6.5 percent of the Sudanese population. In the mid-1970s, West Africans had been estimated at more than 10 percent of the population of the northern provinces. Some were descendants of persons who had arrived five generations or more earlier; others were recent immigrants. Some had come in self-imposed exile, unable to accommodate to the colonial power in their homeland. Others had been pilgrims to Mecca, settling either en route or on their return. Many came over decades in the course of the great dispersion of the nomadic Fulani; others arrived, particularly after World War II, as rural and urban laborers or to take up land as peasant cultivators.

Nearly 60 percent of people included in the West African category were said to be of Nigerian origin (locally called Borno after the Nigerian emirate that was their homeland). Given Hausa dominance in northern Nigeria and the widespread use of their language there and elsewhere, some non-Hausa might also be called Hausa and describe themselves as such. But the Hausa themselves, particularly those long in Sudan, preferred to be called Takari. The Fulani, even more widely dispersed throughout West Africa, may have originated in states other than Nigeria. Typically, the term applied to the Fulani in Sudan was Fallata, but Sudanese also used that term for other West Africans.

The Fulani nomads were found in many parts of central Sudan from Darfur to the Blue Nile, and they occasionally competed with indigenous populations for pasturage. In Darfur groups of Fulani origin adapted in various ways to the presence of the Baqqara tribes. Some retained all aspects of their culture and language. A few had become much like Baqqara in language and in other respects, although they tended to retain their own breeds of cattle and ways of handling them. Some of the Fulani groups in the eastern states were sedentary, descendants of sedentary Fulani of the ruling group in northern Nigeria.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+sd0053)

Rasol, my brother, you couldn't have put it more clearly.

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Originally posted by Ayazid:

Are u crazy ???

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Ayazid, I can see that you are a very passionate person...perhaps too passionate. I would advice you to refrain from using foul language, and just refute by comments by providing your facts or references. Believe me, I can get dirty myself if it gets right down to it! So please, let us just stick to refutation instead of foul names!

Now back to the issue. If you had carefully read my comment, you would have noticed that I never denied any intermingling between native Sudanese, and Arab nomads. I simply said that this mixed population isn't enough for one to consider Sudanese in general as Arabs. In fact some of the photos you provided, is testament to this. While in those photos you provided, some of the people visibly have some Arab blood, there are others who clearly retain their Negro traits. Infact, that one picture of a woman with a "hijab" scarf, doesn't show any Arab traits. She looks like a typical East African woman, e.g. Ethiopians, Djibouti, or Somalians, Kenyans,etc. I also noticed from those photos, that the guys with more Arab percentage in blood, seem to have a more wrinkled skin than the one's with less Arab blood!

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Supercar you are too funny, lmao. What's up with the "wrinkled" skin comment. I think I picked up on the implication, though it may take others a minutes to grasp the insinuation. ROFLOL

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quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
Just stating the obvious. I mean take serious look at the photos...and see the differences. You can even tell by their noses (somewhat curved big noses), the one's that have more Arab blood. The others with the "wooly" hair that you commented on, are simply showing their black heritage. Ausur gave a more accurate account on the Sudanese. Ayazid seems to keep dancing around the idea that there are Arabs in Sudan today, and that Sudanese speak Arabic. He doesn't take into account that Arabs weren't the Nubians, as we've come to know them. Arabs came in much later to spread their religion. In order to make people adopt their religion, they had to force them to speak Arabic. The Islamic Kuran is only written in Arabic. So it makes sense for them to Arabize the population to their best ability. Nevertheless, African populations have always tried to make sure that their culture stays alive, and that is why the Nubian group of Sudan still speak their native language, and use Arabic only as a secondary language. As we know, there is conflict between Sudanese who consider themselves full Africans, and those who claim that they have Arab blood (even if it is just one-drop) , and speak Arabic. Again, this is further evidence that Sudanese are far from calling themselves Arabs.

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Sudanese ARABS (cca 20 milions of people) call thmeselves without question ARABS. there is no doubt about it. According to your logic Arab is only a person from the Arabian Peninsula and other arabic speaking people like Syrians, Libanonese, Egyptians, Sudanese, Iraqians, Lybians, Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans and Moors(from Mauretania) are not because they have non-arab blood.It seems they are Arameites, "pharaons", Nubians and Berbers for you.

Read this:

ARABS

People living in North Africa and the Middle East, from western Morocco, to Oman, and from Turkey in the north to Yemen and Sudan in the south.
Arabs are living in an area of 10 million km², and their number are 250 millions. This make them by far the largest population in the region. About 4 millions Arabs live in Europe, and 2 millions in the Americas.
The Arabic heartland is Hijaz (now western Saudi Arabia) and also Yemen. The people living here around 620 was living in an area of major movements of people, with trade performed along the caravan routes, which had Mecca in Hijaz as one of the central towns. People were coming from Africa, from Mesopotamia, from Phoenicia, from Egypt, and there are little suggesting that the Arabs of this time was a pure race, because of intermarriages and because the Arab woman to a large extent seem to have enjoyed the freedom to choose her own bedmates.
Up through the history the same has applied, wherever Arab culture has taken hold. Mixture of people, and the domination of the Arabic language and culture, has made the number of people calling themselves Arabs increase dramatically. Apparently the indigenous population seems to have disappeared.
When reading historical works, one asks, where did the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Mesopotamians go? The answer is banal enough, they started to speak Arabic, and calling themselves Arabs. The whole process took centuries in most regions, but in areas close to Hijaz, more of "original" Arabs seem to immigrated, and this has speeded up the Arabization process.
CHARACTERISTICS

Ethnically, Arabs are mostly dark haired with brown eyes, and medium light skin. But there are Arabs that are black, and Arabs that are quite blond. These differences are regional, and a result of the process described above. Moreover, the number of ethnically pure Arabs might be down to a single digit percentage.
More than 85% of all Arabs are Sunni Muslims, 10% are Shi'i Muslims (Yemen, Iraq, Gulf coast), while less than 5% are Christians (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Israel).
An estimated 55% live in urban areas, while 45% live in rural areas. Today, less than 1% live as nomads, and of these many are nomads only in the dry season.

ARABIC POLITICS

Arab unity has been a central motive in Arab politics from the first days of Islam. This unity has only been fulfilled in the first century, before the world of Islam was divided into kingdoms and states.
In modern times, Arab unity was a central political inducement in the time following independence of the different Arab states, that is in the 50's and the 60's. The only viable example of Arab unity was the United Arab Republic, consisting of Egypt, Syria and Yemen, from 1958 to 1961. In this union Egypt was too dominant, and the two other countries felt they had to leave. Today Arab unity on the level of political leaders have lost its credibility, as the leaders will never agree upon who should give up his position as president or king. In the Arab's hearts, though, Arab unity is strongly felt, even if Arabs living in poor countries are provoked by the rich oil countries of the Gulf.
Islamism has many elements of Arab unity, through its emphasis of the Arab language (through the Koran) as a response to the dominance of Western cultures and Western political systems. Islamism has been felt by non-Arabs as another way of imposing Arab language and culture on them, and Islamism have had to change its shape to catch on in these societies (Iran's Islamism has major differences from the Arab Islamism, since almost all Iranians are not Arabs).

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/arabs.htm

ARABIC

Semitic language used by Arabs — where there is a direct connection, as the majority of Arabs are Arabs by language and not by blood.
Arabic is used as the principle language in most countries covered by the Encyclopaedia of the Orient, Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Israel (as one of the official languages), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Sudan, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.
Arabic is used by around 250 million people, but is understood by up to four times more among Muslims around the world. Arabic is also central to other languages in the Muslim world, as a large exporter of words and expressions. Arabic writing is also used for other languages like Persian and Urdu.
3 TYPES OF ARABIC
Arabic is a language divided into 3 separate groups: Classical written Arabic; written Modern Standard Arabic; and spoken Arabic.
Classical written Arabic is principally defined as the Arabic used in the Holy Koran and in the earliest literature from the Arabian peninsula, but is the core of much literature up until our time.
Modern Standard Arabic is a modernization of the structures of classical Arabic, and includes words for modern phenomenons as well as a rich addition from the many dialects all over the Arabic world.
Spoken Arabic is a mixed form, which has many variations, and often a dominating influence from local languages (from before the introduction of Arabic). Differences between the various variants of spoken Arabic can be large enough to make them incomprehensible to one another. Hence it could be correct to refer to the different versions as separate lanuages named according to their areas, like Moroccan, Cairo Arabic, North Syrian Arabic etc.

Can you present your "further evidence that Sudanese are far from calling themselves Arabs", please ?

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Originally posted by rasol:
No comment, just some links: http://holocaust.fiu.edu/~fcf/slavery.sudan.html http://www.anti-slavery.com/today/background/sudan.htm http://www.lnsart.com/Sudan%20Slave%20Story.htm http://www.meforum.org/article/182
http://www.antislavery.org/archive/press/pressRelease1999-SudanSlave.htm

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Ya man ... I am not speaking about slavery and oppression of the southern Sudanese, but about arabic identity of the NORTHERN Sudanese.I am awaiting, that you will post an articles about this issue guys!!!

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Originally posted by Ayazid:

Ya man ... I am not speaking about slavery and oppression of the southern Sudanese, but about arabic identity of the NORTHERN Sudanese.

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Completely phony distinction, since the slaves are captured in the south and taken to the NORTH, and converted into "Arabs", a practice which has gone on for centuries. Mislead others as best you can, you are wasting your time with me.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Rasol he is not misleading or convincing anyone but maybe himself. The rest of us know what time it is.

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
According to your logic Arab is only a person from the Arabian Peninsula and other arabic speaking people like Syrians, Libanonese, Egyptians, Sudanese, Iraqians, Lybians, Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans and Moors(from Mauretania) are not because they have non-arab blood.It seems they are Arameites, "pharaons", Nubians and Berbers for you.

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You'll never grasp my logic, much less ever understand what I have been trying to say here for so long.
Arabs are a race, not just the language they speak. Arabs are what is called "Semites". Are you for a moment, trying to tell me that Sudanese are Semites? The original Sudanese, barring any intermingling, were Negreos as their Ancient Nubian ancestors. No doubt, they speak Arabic, that doesn't mean that they are Arabs. You speak English, don't you? Does that make you Brittish by default? I hope you get my drift. How many times do I have to stress, that they speak this Arabic language as a result of conquest. You attempt to make it look like the Arabs are the majority in Sudan, while the real Africans are a minority. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself, what is wrong with that picture? When has an invading race in history, ever outnumbered the African population? If the Arabs are the majority, then why are they trying to wipe out a harmless African minority population...are they that much insecure or racist? Like I said, some Sudanese who just have a tiny Arab blood, might consider themselves Arabs, just to express their brotherhood to fellow Muslims. In their minds, unless they prove to their "real" Arab counterparts that they are Arabs, those people wouldn't consider them true Muslims. Ausur touched this point, when he mentioned that in the past some West African rulers spread fallacy, by connecting their history with Arabs, in an attempt to prove how much of a Muslim they were. The same thing is going on in Sudan. But Africans by nature, have always done their best to keep their traditions alive. No amount of Arabization will change the Sudanese into becoming real Arabs. They were Africans, and they will remain so, regardless of what people like yourself continue to imagine. Yes, Arabic is a popular language in Sudan and so is the Islamic religion, but by no means does this erase the Sudanese African traditions, languages, and their African identity. You can continue to dispute this, but the reality is that Sudanese are true Africans, despite their intermingling with Arabs and other foreigners.

But nevertheless, as Rasol stated earlier, most people that speak the Arabic tongue or have become "arabised" if such a term exist are what are typically referred to as Arabs today.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
I feel you supercar, I hate when people began post with phras like "According to your logic"...

But nevertheless, as Rasol stated earlier, most people that speak the Arabic tongue or have become "arabised" if such a term exist are what are typically referred to as Arabs today.

Like the Hebrews, and other semetic people of the area referred to as Ancient Arabia they were pretty much a nomadic people. These nomadic people began settling in lands they invaded and mixed with local settlers. No different from Saharan nomadic tribes, there were several independant ethnic groups in ancient times that have become what are called Arabs today. Over 70% of of today Arabs are in Northern and Eastern Africa. Only about 30% are in Asia. And remember throughout history all these different places have been given different names by different people. Sudan today was Ethiopia, Cush, Ta-seti and Nubia, yesterday (not to be taken literally). Although Muhammad was from Saudi Arabia, islam spread in all directions- as far east as the border of China, and as far west as West Africa, and as far north as Spain. And the many people that have adopted this language would consider themselves Arabs. However everyone that has adopted Islam did not adopt the arabic language and don't call themselves Arab. So today Arabs are not just people from Ancient Arabia, as some Jews and Christians are from this same location, its people that have adobted this arabic language and culture.

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Clearly these so-called "Arabs" aren't Arabs as in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Algeria, etc. They don't look that much different from other East African Negroes.

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Saudi Arabic is the exception of the people you mention of all the countries. Many people within Algeria and Iraq are not ethnically Arabs. The movement of Arabs within northern Africa was much to small to displace the entire population. Know in Libya you have people who are mostly bedouin Arabs that were brought within Africa by the Caliphtes that ruled Egypt. The same goes with Morocco where some Arab minority exists.

People in Algeria are imazigh[Berbers] known as Kaybele. Right know the Kayblia are fighting the Arabs in resistant movements.

These are a few from that site:

Nubian Sheikh

Man wearing a fez

[IMG]http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/mirage/images/high/cl11-137.jpg [/IMG]
Beduoin Chief

Coptic Priest

Bedouin woman

Now in comparison to the photos Ayazid posted you have to admit, the more things change, the more they say the same. Enjoy

[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 30 June 2004).]

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Originally posted by Supercar
[b] Clearly these so-called "Arabs" aren't Arabs as in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Algeria, etc. They don't look that much different from other East African Negroes.

Arab is not a race, its more an ethnic group than anything like Hispanic. Many Arabs will refer to themselves as caucasian on U.S. official documents. As far as them not looking much different from other "East African Negroes", remember those areas have been intermingling since the historical times of Queen of Sheeba (Saba) which is why they share a genetic origin. Its no different than Jews looking like Palestinian Arabs. (And yes Jew is just as much a nationality as it is a religion). It is not for us to say who is Arab and who isnt, is more for them to identify themselves as such. I wouldn't dare tell a Black Dominican he is not Hispanic, no less than a White Dominican.[/B]

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Originally posted by homeylu:
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. All Sudanese are NOT considered Arab. You don't hear people calling the Dinka's Arabs. And from my understanding this is the largest ethnic group in Sudan. So you really have me confused as to what point you are making. Ive hear of Sudanese being forced to convert to Islam, but not foced to become "Arabs". A lot of Black Africans have adopted Islam but they surely are not considered "Arab". A lot of Turkish people are muslim but not considered Arabs. Please clarify your point.

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