quote:

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Again, I believe European ideas aren't compatible when discussing Africa.

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Duplicity in action. You use Europe as basis for comparison just so long as you think it helps justify your argument --"European isn't synonymous with 'white'", -- when your argument is effectively rebuked, you turn around and say Europe isn't a valid basis for comparison.

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My responses are purely scientific and non-political.

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While Europe has been nearly genetically homogeneous up until the past century or so,

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The Moors (another word for Blacks), some of whom were from as far South as Senegal and Mauritania (Land of the Blacks...again!, hmm. wonder if it means black soil, and not people. ) occupied much of Southern Europe beginning in 700 ad. Moorish presence in Europe lasted for 800 years. They brought such long lost basics of civilization as bathing to European peoples whose ignorant superstitions proscribed against.
Do you still wish to pretend that Europe has some special homogeneity that other areas of the world do not possess?

I've got an idea that will help you:
Perhaps the Moors are really coastal Europeans (!). You are too much fun Neo. Keep posting, we will educate you yet.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

Do you still wish to pretend that Europe has some special homogeneity that other areas of the world do not possess?

I've got an idea that will help you:
Perhaps the Moors are really coastal Europeans (!). You are too much fun Neo. Keep posting, we will educate you yet.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 24 June 2004).]

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If u are young 22 or younger I assume at some point later u will have a better understanding of what is/has been going on.

Neo said:

"My responses are purely scientific and non-political."

Thats your problem, all of this is political, set up to maintian an advantage. What did you think racism was "Scientific".

"I have had people clearly of East African descent tell me they weren't black. Sammy Sosa will tell you he isn't black. Anwar Sadat never said he was black. "

They think the way they do because Europeans have spread for years the belief that it is a bad thing to be Black, so any who think they can find a way out of that will do their best to accomplish that. Why would any one want to be a member of a group that was believed to be inferior and treated as such for a very long time. All humans want status and prestiege, something not often afforded Blacks in western society based on the fact that they are Black

....I have heard Egyptologists, Present day Egyptologist say they do not want to believe the Answers about AE lye deeper within Africa. Think that is good science or political.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
The Moors didn't significantly change the phenotypes of southern Europeans. Go do your homework. Go find genetic evidence that proves me wrong.

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Very interesting, but not surprising to see what gets you riled up.

But again you err. Genetic evidence is not used to prove phenotypical or visible traits and vice versa. But both can be independantly utilized to prove the Black presence in Europe that you ever more transparently with each post, so fear and loath.

Mitochondrial DNA affinities of Southern Europe.

Gonzalez AM, Brehm A, Perez JA, Maca-Meyer N, Flores C, Cabrera VM.

It does not advance Eurocentrism to call AE something between African and Asian.....dream on, dream away, Neo.

Do u really understand Eurocentrism...what it did for them and what it did to us??

Your posts seem to indicate that u don't.

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Whatever you think, just know that I've come to my conclusions on my own by reviewing the sum of my life's experiences

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I only admire Egypt and feel a kindred connection to the ancient Egyptians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Obenga:
"It doesn't take away from the fact that AE were an African people and it doesn't advance the cause of eurocentricism."

It does not advance Eurocentrism to call AE something between African and Asian.....dream on, dream away, Neo.

Do u really understand Eurocentrism...what it did for them and what it did to us??

Your posts seem to indicate that u don't.

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You really need to lighten up. I'm not calling AE a Middle Eastern civ or a Mediterranean civ, I agree 100% that they were African. This isn't the 19th century. There is no vast conspiracy to deny Africans their history. However, you can't expect European historians to understand nor investigate your history for you. It's not their obligation, as a person of African descent, it's yours. As I said on another thread, we've only scratched the surface on Nubia and other African cultures. The only way to defeat biased Eurocentric history is in the classroom not debating semantics with someone who hardly disagrees with you.

The word Moors caomes from the term Mauros which was a Greek term reffering to the black warriors in Roman armies from northern Africa. Later it was applied to any Muslim person in Al-Andalusia.

quote:

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Originally posted by Obenga:
"It doesn't take away from the fact that AE were an African people and it doesn't advance the cause of eurocentricism."

It does not advance Eurocentrism to call AE something between African and Asian.....dream on, dream away, Neo.

Do u really understand Eurocentrism...what it did for them and what it did to us??

Your posts seem to indicate that u don't.

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You really need to lighten up. This isn't the 19th century. There is no vast conspiracy to deny Africans their history. However, you can't expect European historians to understand nor investigate your history for you. It's not their obligation, as a person of African descent, it's yours. [/quote]

then stop trying to tell him, and the ancient kemetians that they are not allowed to call themselves Black men.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rasol, most of the sub-saharan Mtdna came into the Med region during the Neolithic period and not from the Moorish/Islamic Spain period.

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The word Moors caomes from the term Mauros which was a Greek term reffering to the black warriors in Roman armies from northern Africa. Later it was applied to any Muslim person in Al-Andalusia.

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It's interesting to hear people pretend to be puzzled that AE would refer to themselves or their country as Black, when the practice in many and varied contexts is much more common throughout history than is widely known.

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
You really need to lighten up. I'm not calling AE a Middle Eastern civ or a Mediterranean civ, I agree 100% that they were African. This isn't the 19th century. There is no vast conspiracy to deny Africans their history. However, you can't expect European historians to understand nor investigate your history for you. It's not their obligation, as a person of African descent, it's yours. As I said on another thread, we've only scratched the surface on Nubia and other African cultures. The only way to defeat biased Eurocentric history is in the classroom not debating semantics with someone who hardly disagrees with you.

[This message has been edited by neo*geo (edited 24 June 2004).]

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I don't need to lighten up I am not too heavy...you need to wise up if u don't know why Anwar Sadat had a problem with his colour

You must be very selective about what you read in my posts. Where in the world would you get the idea I want European historians to understand and investigate MY HISTORY FOR ME. you can't be serious after everything I just said about determining these things by our standards and definitions Have u understood any thing I have posted.....sheesh!!

Neo, your mental health prescription medication has run out and you are in Dire need of a refill.

I love the stewart synopsis. Its interesting that people like Neo continuously refer to the 19th century when referring to "racism", as if it has disappeared from the scientific community into the 21st century.

Neo
This isn't the 19th century. There is no vast conspiracy to deny Africans their history.

Although most scientist have decided to abandon racial categories of phenotypes, the labels they left lingering will stick with us for centuries to come. Until I see the word "negro" and "caucasian" disappear from the millions of textbooks, I'd say a conspiracy still exists.

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Originally posted by Obenga:

I don't need to lighten up I am not too heavy...you need to wise up if u don't know why Anwar Sadat had a problem with his colour

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I understand why. I just dismiss it because it's not important to me what other people identify themselves as. We all percieve ourselves differently than how others percieve us. You have posted here long enough to know where I stand politically and how knowledgable I am of world history. No need to drop knowledge. I'm well educated already.

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Originally posted by Obenga:

You must be very selective about what you read in my posts. Where in the world would you get the idea I want European historians to understand and investigate MY HISTORY FOR ME.

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Where did you get the idea that I don't agree with the basic foundation of your argument? I just have issues with racial labeling because race is a social concept that varies from one society to another. The term 'black' itself has European origins.

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Originally posted by Obenga:

Neo, your mental health prescription medication has run out and you are in Dire need of a refill.

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No need for insults. Up until now you have not been disrespectful towards me so I have responded to your posts. Two people should be able to disagree and remain civil.

This comment from u is an insult. u have read nothing I have posted. How can u state that drivel and claim to read my posts.

quote:

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Originally posted by Obenga:
"you can't expect European historians to understand nor investigate your history for you. It's not their obligation, as a person of African descent, it's yours"

This comment from u is an insult. u have read nothing I have posted. How can u state that drivel and claim to read my posts.

I asked u a question and a very easy one. where did u get the idea I would want something like that which u state above??

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Sorry if you took offense to that but I was giving my opinion and speaking to everyone. Even you have complained about how African history has been presented by Western historians. So my point is, if people have problems with that, stop complaining and write your own history books. It really doesn't matter to me, everything is biased. The truth is always in the middle.

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
[B] Thought2, your safest bet would be to actually go to Egypt and see for yourself what Ausur said of Egyptians, because you apparently disagree with him. The irony in this is that he is from that country!
[B]

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Thought Writes:

A little on the gas, a little on the brakes...

If you're forced to play the "race" game, gotta play it well -- which means if no one's pressing the issue, may as well leave it alone... Otherwise you become the belligerent.

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
I agree with Obenga that Kmt was essentially a ''black'' African product;however I disagree that Lower Egyptians were phenotypically black. Certainly,southern types have been found in pre-dyanstic Lower Egypt and even within the costal African cultures like Capsians. Yes,there were negriod types amungst early so-called Costal northern African types.

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Thought Writes:

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Originally posted by neo*geo:
Sorry if you took offense to that but I was giving my opinion and speaking to everyone. Even you have complained about how African history has been presented by Western historians. So my point is, if people have problems with that, stop complaining and write your own history books. It really doesn't matter to me, everything is biased. The truth is always in the middle.

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Cool, next time when speaking to everyone leave my name and statment out of it and try to stop saying "You" and I will see u are just generalizing.

This is a rhetorical and inane question. I will try and make this as brief as possible. Africa is Africa as Europe is Europe. It has been a devise to divide and conquer non-western countries for economic and political control for some time. Most all of the world’s natural resources are from Africa and Asia(middle east)! Europeans have for a long time exploited Asia and Africa while using the benefits to build Europe and that’s how almost all of Europe is developed today while most of Africa and Asia remain “backwards“. If one travels throughout Europe you will come across populations that are diverse in phenotype (appearance), culture and language, but are considered European . Europeans refuse to be divided and will not let anyone define them even though they are very well aware of the differences within. Lets think about this, France has French language and French culture; England has English language and English culture; Spain has Spanish language and Spanish culture, Russia has Russian language and Russian culture, Ireland has Irish/Gaelic language and Irish culture; Italy has Italian language and Italian culture; Portugal has Portuguese language and Portuguese culture; Poland has Polish language and Polish culture; Germany has German language and German culture and this list goes on and on. You have to even consider the sub-cultures in all of these cultures and the different dialects of the languages in each country. Now lets look at the phenotype of Europe! Many Spaniards, Portuguese and Italians are not just olive in skin colour, but are brown with curly hair (mulatto looking like many North Africans and middle easterners) and many Russians are very Asian looking. One will never hear Europeans dissociating themselves from the “continent” of Europe because they know they are diverse and very different but they identify with and are PROUD to be European especially because at this present point in time Europeans are ruling the world and many people associate anything European as superior or better and anything African as inferior and bad. Another horrible misconception is Europe = humans and intelligent and Africa= Animals and unintelligent. This is the core of where the concept of “in Africa, but not African” comes from. Its an inferiority complex due to the present false perceptions of Europe and Africa. ALL Africa has been colonized, “imperialized” and under the exploitative control of Europe for many many years now. It is these divisive tactics that are now employed to keep ALL African confused, bickering and non-unified while Europe reaps the benefits and continues to build itself!!
------------------
Time Will Tell!- Bob Marley

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I advocate a scientific approach, not an emotive approach. Going to Egypt as a tourist would do little to address the limb ratio discrepancies between Dynastic Egyptians and Modern Egyptians.

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I think you misunderstood me! I made the above statement based on your comment that most Egyptians look Eurasian, and Ausur's disagreement with that. And no, I do think if you go to Egypt today, you will definitely be able to make a connection between Dynastic Egypt and Modern Egypt...and I mean this in scientific terms as well. How can you seriously learn about a culture fluently, than actually meeting the people of that culture! Where do you think those scientists, whom you rely on, get their conclusions from? They go to Egypt to make discoveries.

As for Neo*geo, Obenga's point has been all along centered on what you said later on, about Africans writing the African History, and Africans determining what is African.
Seperating lower Egypt from upper Egypt doesn't in any way change the fact that it is 'black' civilization. And yes, science has always been a victim of politics, and we shouldn't fail to realize that.
Nobody here is saying that the so-called non-black Africans of coastal North Egypt has not contributed to AE civilization, just stating that they were intergrated into a 'black' African culture, and not the other way around. I also believe Hyksos, marked a period in AE when it was threatened to go back to the "Dark ages", until Egyptians took control again!

Look, we can argue here about what is scientific and what isn't. The reality is that the world view today is based on politics, and science will do little to change that! First thing a non-European thinks when the term "Europe" pops up, is "White culture". First thing when "Middle East" pops up, a non-Middle Easterner thinks is "Arab culture", not withstanding that part of this region is actually Africa. First thing a non-African thinks of when "Africa" pops up, is 'Black' culture. Science has so far changed little on these distorted views due to politics. Of course Europeans will see themselves differently from outsiders, like wise Africans will see themselves differently from outsiders. Until science is completely seperated from politics, and all national curricula are based on pure science, these distorted world views will continue. As such, like Ausur earlier pointed out, until enough Africans can get to high level economic or social positions such as the likes of C.A. Diop, African vioces will be overshadowed by people outside of Africa!

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
[B] As such, like Ausur earlier pointed out, until enough Africans can get to high level economic or social positions such as the likes of C.A. Diop, African vioces will be overshadowed by people outside of Africa!
[B]

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Thought Writes:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayazid:

Ancient Egypt was a mixed culture, the nubians were the dark skinned blacks of ancient Egypt, they looked similar to former president of egypt Anwar Sadat who had sudanese background. Its obvious by some of the hyroglyphics and statues not all egyptians in ancient times were obvious negroids, they looked more brown not black, and not all had negroid features.

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There are many white skinned Egyptians, especially in the Northern part of the country. The rest are more tanned and became redder or more yellowish skin tones.
It depends very much on how long they've spent under the sun and also on the amount of African admixture they've mopped up from the south

South of Cairo (like in Minya or Luxor) most of the people are usually browner skinned but are of the same racial stock as the ones from Cairo.
It's just that they received more African admixture from the south (from Sudan) and less foreign admixture from the Middle East and Europe

There is always a regional variation between people...

quote:

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Originally posted by Ayazid:
Ancient egypt had dark blacks but by all means the majority were a medium shade of brown and not all were what youd call negro, according to ancient archeological findings many looked white also.

There are many white skinned Egyptians, especially in the Northern part of the country. The rest are more tanned and became redder or more yellowish skin tones.
It depends very much on how long they've spent under the sun and also on the amount of African admixture they've mopped up from the south

South of Cairo (like in Minya or Luxor) most of the people are usually browner skinned but are of the same racial stock as the ones from Cairo.
It's just that they received more African admixture from the south (from Sudan) and less foreign admixture from the Middle East and Europe

There is always a regional variation between people...

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Originally posted by supercar:
Ayazid, I am not going to get into a debate with you about who is 'black' or not. I have talked about this long enough now, to stoop low in discussing it further. I honestly think people like yourself join in, make pointless comments just to press buttons and to be argumentative!

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It's not just that. They live in the 21st century. They inherit the ugly culture of racism and anti-Black predjudice, and not all of them are capable of learning to think any other way. That does not mean that you can afford to ignore them or allow them to perpetuate the disease that is their ignorance, however tiresome you may find them to be.

Ayazid: There are millions of Black Africans ranging in skin color from yellow/brown to jet Black, and with a wide variety of phenotypical features. Africans are inherently diverse and do not need Europeans or Asians for that. In fact it is Europeans and Asians who inherit many of their different phenotypical features from their different African ancestries.

At root, yourself, neo and those who think likewise, ALL PRATTLE ON WHILE DANCING AROUND THE HARD FACTS.

The Kemetians were a dark skinned native African people who rooted their ancestral homeland in Africa and referred themselves as Black men. The moment you attempt to imply otherwise you are disrespecting the Kememu and engaging in imperialist theft of history and culture, which is just another form of colonialist racism.

"Negroid features" argument, merely repeats racist pseudo scientific assumptions in a garbage in garbage out fashion, and is baseless. You cannot match/assume phenotype to genotype. This fact is readily admitted by white scientists whenever they wish to redefine peoples according to the politics of their racism. (ex. reclassify indigenous Australians as caucasoid).

The biggest tragedy of all though, is when non European peoples invest their own shattered self esteem into this creed of "hate", and begin defining themselves by how close they are to the mythical and pseudo-scientfic Aryan ideal of the pale skinned blue eyed blonde- a racist ideal the NAZI's proved is easily turned against millions of "caucasians", who otherwise so desparately cling to it, like slaves snatching for foodscrapes from their masters table.

Rethink you root assumptions Ayazid.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
It's not just that. They live in the 21st century. They inherit the ugly culture of racism and anti-Black predjudice, and not all of them are capable of learning to think any other way. That does not mean that you can afford to ignore them or allow them to perpetuate the disease that is their ignorance, however tiresome you may find them to be.

Ayazid: There are millions of Black Africans ranging in skin color from yellow/brown to jet Black, and with a wide variety of phenotypical features. Africans are inherently diverse and do not need Europeans or Asians for that. In fact it is Europeans and Asians who inherit many of their different phenotypical features from their different African ancestries.

At root, yourself, neo and those who think likewise, ALL PRATTLE ON WHILE DANCING AROUND THE HARD FACTS.

The Egyptians were a dark skinned native African people who rooted their ancestral homeland in Africa and referred themselves as Black men. The moment you attempt to imply otherwise you are disrespecting the Kememu and engaging in imperialist theft of history and culture, which is just another form of colonialist racism.

"Negroid features" argument, merely repeats racist pseudo scientific assumptions in a garbage in garbage out fashion, and is baseless. You cannot match/assume phenotype to genotype. This fact is readily admitted by white scientists whenever they wish to redefine peoples according to the politics of their racism. (ex. reclassify indigenous Australians as caucasoid).

The biggest tragedy of all though, is when non European peoples invest their own shattered self esteem into this creed of "hate", and begin defining themselves by how close they are to the mythical and pseudo-scientfic Aryan ideal of the pale skinned blue eyed blonde- a racist ideal the NAZI's proved is easily turned the against millions of "caucasians", who otherwise so desparately cling to it.

Rethink you root assumptions Ayazid.

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OK, U ARE 100% CORRECT

And if the lower ancient Egyptians looked anything like him, by American "social standards" they would be considered "negros"

And the title of this magnificent piece is...that's right

They are virtually an invitation for racists to wade in and start playing the "classificaton" game.

Wally's point is well made at the very top of this thread (which is brilliantly conceived imho): We know that the AE considered themselves Black peoples. All attempts to deny that can only expose the racism of the person in denial.

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:

And if the lower ancient Egyptians looked anything like him, by American "social standards" they would be considered "negros"

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Err, the kemetians? Is this a trick question?

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Originally posted by Ausar
themselves Black, before "Black" became a "negative" identifier.

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Ancient egypt had dark blacks but by all means the majority were a medium shade of brown and not all were what youd call negro, according to ancient archeological findings many looked white also

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Most ancient Egyptians look like people in Luxor to Aswan who are quite dark brown.

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South of Cairo (like in Minya or Luxor) most of the people are usually browner skinned but are of the same racial stock as the ones from Cairo.
It's just that they received more African admixture from the south (from Sudan) and less foreign admixture from the Middle East and Europe

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Wrong,there has been negriod admixture in this area since pre-dyanstic times. The admixture is not recent but from pre-dyanstic times. People in Luxor look nothing like people from Minya or Cairo unless you compaire areas like Boulaq Abu Ella.

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Ancient Egypt was a mixed culture, the nubians were the dark skinned blacks of ancient Egypt, they looked similar to former president of egypt Anwar Sadat who had sudanese background. Its obvious by some of the hyroglyphics and statues not all egyptians in ancient times were obvious negroids, they looked more brown not black, and not all had negroid features.

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The Nubians were not the only black people in ancient Egyptian soceity. Negriod types have existed in Upper Egypt and continue to exist that are non-Nubian people. Most of the pharoahs came from Upper Egypt in the area of southern Upper Egypt.

Most of the population in antiquity lived in the areas of Luxor-Aswan.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Originally posted by Ausar
[b]On the term "black", what African people called themselves "black" before Arabs and Europeans called them "black?"

Err, the kemetians? Is this a trick question?

LMAO...the Ancient Egyptians called themselves Black, before "Black" became a "negative" identifier.[/B]

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If khemet meant black people why didn't they apply the term to other parts of Africa where blacks were known to exist? Why did they use different names for the Nubians(Nehesy)?

I'm not trying to mess with you, I have just seen few places in Africa where people used skin color to identify themselves until those names were given to them by Arabs(Sudan) or Europeans. The Western European social rules for race which are still rampant in the US today didn't exist 5000 years ago. They had different standards for race and from their own images it seems they saw themselves as different from Asiatics, Indo-Europeans, and other Africans. And by "different" I mean unique.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
If khemet meant black people why didn't they apply the term to other parts of Africa where blacks were known to exist? Why did they use different names for the Nubians(Nehesy)?

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Courtesy of our friend wally: http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/

Kemet is the name of the country.
Kem just means Black and can be affixed to anything Black.

Kememu means Black people.

There is a world wide perception of blacks now because we live in the media age. It is not just an American phenomenon and never was.

Where ever whites and Blacks come into contact, if u look like u have black in you then u are Black as far as Western society is concerned. Is Beyonce seen as Black!! But how Black is she genetically speaking. The whole world see's her as Black.

I have several nieces and a Nephew who are half White, they are perceived no different than a full black. They get called Nigger at school just like any other black person. Because to be half black means u are not pure white and as far as whites go if u don't LOOK full white then u are not White u are OTHER, period

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Originally posted by rasol:
Kememu means Black people.

If used to describe another African, that would in no way help prove anything about how the Egyptians view themselves.

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Originally posted by Obenga:
Unless they are discussing Ancient KMT, then these mixed types are any thing BUT Black. Because this suits and supports the racist structure already in place

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I agree but you have to keep in mind that these racist structures have only been in place for maybe 500 years. I'm waitng for someone to show me that today's racial structure was in place 5000 years ago. Don't you agree that we should emancipate ourselves from this mentality?

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Originally posted by Obenga:
. I'm waitng for someone to show me that today's racial structure was in place 5000 years ago.

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Why? That is not relevant. From the Hausa to the Fulani, from the the Muslim Africans of the Northern Sudan to the Christians in the Southern Sudan, from the Zulu and Xhosa to the Khoisan, you may find any possible combination of peoples who call themselves Black, who call each other Black, or who are offended by being called Black.....

There is no result of that change of subject, that will conceal the fact that the Kemetians considered themselves Black peoples.

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Originally posted by homeylu:
As the Greeks clearly identified themselves separately from the Romans, but who is arguing the Greeks were a separte shade of white than the Romans???????????????????

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Good point, neither the Greeks nor the Romans indentified themselves as 'white' people despite being in close contact with people of color. Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians each saw themselves as unique and superior to all other races(race in a nationalistic sense not a physical one). It just doesn't make sense that kememu would mean "black people" when they clearly distinguished themselves by other means and never used the term to describe non-Egyptians.

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Unless they are discussing Ancient KMT, then these mixed types are any thing BUT Black. Because this suits and supports the racist structure already in place

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of course, said structure is in fact the only reason this issue exists. before 18th century racist europeans began pillaging other peoples countries and what's worse...other peoples minds, there was no issue of the identity of the kemetians as a Black African people.

* apologies to those who are bored by the redundancy, but there are only so many ways of explaining how 2x2 is 4, and no i don't think it's unnecessary as long as racist lies are commonly fed to people, who then promptly regurgitate them on queue, as if they don't know any better.

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Originally posted by neo:
It just doesn't make sense that kememu would mean "black people"

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if you wish to debate the meanings of words then present wally with your etymological evidence to the contrary.

if you have none, then your statement is simply obtuse*.

* look it up, if you don't know what it means.

I think you have your "posts" mixed up, and it should read

Originally posted by Neo*geo
"It just doesn't make sense that kememu would mean "black people"

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:

So "back-up" off me....(wink) I'm on your side.

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