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Eur J Hum Genet. 2005 Mar 9; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links
High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males.
Sanchez JJ, Hallenberg C, Borsting C, Hernandez A, Morling N.
1Department of Forensic Genetics, Institute of Forensic Medicine, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
We genotyped 45 biallelic markers and 11 STR systems on the Y chromosome in 201 male Somalis. In addition, 65 sub-Saharan Western Africans, 59 Turks and 64 Iraqis were typed for the biallelic Y chromosome markers. In Somalis, 14 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified including E3b1 (77.6%) and K2 (10.4%). The haplogroup E3b1 with the rare DYS19-11 allele (also called the E3b1 cluster gamma) was found in 75.1% of male Somalis, and 70.6% of Somali Y chromosomes were E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12, DYS437-14, DYS438-11 and DYS393-13. The haplotype diversity of eight Y-STRs ('minimal haplotype') was 0.9575 compared to an average of 0.9974 and 0.9996 in European and Asian populations. In sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2% of the samples and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed. In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found including J2(*)(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3(*)(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1(*)(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%). In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified including J2(*)(xJ2f2) (29.7%) and J(*)(xJ2) (26.6%). The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population - closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya - with predominant E3b1 cluster gamma lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000-5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa.European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 9 March 2005; doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201390.
posted
Thus new genetic evidence refutes Evil 'E's' assertion that Negroid traits found among Somalis are due to Bantu migrations. The picture is becoming even more clear that E3a and E3b aren't associated with discrete physical traits.
Posts: 328 | From: Vicksburg, Mississippi | Registered: Feb 2005
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The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population - closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya - with predominant E3b1 cluster gamma lineages that were introduced into the Somali population 4000-5000 years ago, and that the Somali male population has approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa.
Another resort to the ambiguous use of "sub-Saharan", when Somali's are in fact in sub-Sahara.
When they say sub-Saharan they mean true Negro, eventhough Sanid peoples and East Africans are well within sub-Saharan Africa.
Yeap. The pygmies of central Africa, the non-Bantu speaking West Africans, the Bantus of central Africa, the Sanids, the Horn of Africa folks are within the sub-Saharan region. Modern bio-anthropology is going to have to address this ambiguous use of the geographic term, which itself isn't the problem, but the context in which it is put to use.
quote:Originally posted by Topdog: Thus new genetic evidence refutes Evil 'E's' assertion that Negroid traits found among Somalis are due to Bantu migrations. The picture is becoming even more clear that E3a and E3b aren't associated with discrete physical traits.[/B]
That's a great theory, except for the fact that Somali mtDNA is predominantly sub-Saharan, thus explaining their appearance.
Of course, that's just dumb since there are no whites in prehistoric east Africa.
The R1 Y chromosome forebearers of whites were isolated for many generations, in Europe - PA Underhill, at this time.
EuroDisney's hopes that the proto Europeans can be somehow directly related to PN2 clade Black Africans is ridiculous although amusing in terms of sheer desperation.
E3b did not reach Europe until the Neolithic farmers baring E3b from Black Africa and J from West Asia introduced it to Europe (along with farming). Creating imaginary whites of East Africa is more a personal psychological issue for EuroDisney, than a serious notion for the modern anthropological community.
Disney would be less bad off using the bogus 'hybrid' theory to explain the Paternal ancestry from Black Africa in Southern Europeans, which would at least be rooted in hardfact...
....and not racist wishful thinking
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 March 2005).]
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Somali origins: Evidence places the Somalis within a wide family of peoples called Eastern Cushites by modern linguists and described earlier in some instances as Hamites. From a broader cultural-linguistic perspective, the Cushite family belongs to a vast stock of languages and peoples considered Afro-Asiatic. Afro-Asiatic languages in turn include Cushitic (principally Somali, Oromo, and Afar), the Hausa language of Nigeria, and the Semitic languages of Arabic, Hebrew, and Amharic. Medieval Arabs referred to the Eastern Cushites as the Berberi.
In addition to the Somalis, the Cushites include the largely nomadic Afar (Danakil), who straddle the Great Rift Valley between Ethiopia and Djibouti; the Oromo, who have played such a large role in Ethiopian history and in the 1990s constituted roughly one-half of the Ethiopian population and were also numerous in northern Kenya; the Reendille (Rendilli) of Kenya; and the Aweera (Boni) along the Lamu coast in Kenya. The Somalis belong to a subbranch of the Cushites, the Omo-Tana group, whose languages are almost mutually intelligible. The original home of the Omo-Tana group appears to have been on the Omo and Tana rivers, in an area extending from Lake Turkana in present-day northern Kenya to the Indian Ocean coast.
The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where protoSam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.
The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast Ogaden (Ogaadeen) plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernd Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 bc - A.D.http://countrystudies.us/somalia/3.htm
New studies of post-Pleistocene human skeletal remains from the Rift Valley, Kenya.
Rightmire GP. Prehistoric human crania from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, Makalia Burial Site, Nakuru, and other localities in the Eastern Rift Valley of Kenya are reassessed using measurements and a multivariate statistical approach. Materials available for comparison include series of Bushman and Hottentot crania. South and East African Negroes, and Egyptians. Up to 34 cranial measurements taken on these series are utilized to construct three multiple discriminant frameworks, each of which can assign modern individuals to a correct group with considerable accuracy. When the prehistoric crania are classified with the help of these discriminants, results indicate that several of the skulls are best grouped with modern Negroes. This is especially clear in the case of individuals from Bromhead's Site, Willey's Kopje, and Nakuru, and the evidence hardly suggests post-Pleistocene domination of the Rift and surrounding territory by "Mediterranean" Caucasoids, as has been claimed. Recent linguistic and archaeological findings are also reviewed, and these seem to support application of the term Nilotic Negro to the early Rift populations
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: That's a great theory, except for the fact that Somali mtDNA is predominantly sub-Saharan, thus explaining their appearance.
If E3b were "Black African", Somali crania would cluster with the sub-Saharan sample, and not in-between whites and blacks.[/B]
Its funny because on that erroneous map by Brace there are no whites on there. Upper Egyptians were not whites. Somalis aren't paternally Caucasoid, you're a lost case, most of the Somali Y chromosones are cpmposed of E3b1 gamma, which is found exclusively in East Africa. Somalis are materanally East African, not West African nor central African.
quote: Its funny because on that erroneous map by Brace there are no whites on there. Most of the Somali Y chromosones are composed of E3b1 gamma, which is found exclusively in East Africa.
....much like the Cushites themselves.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 March 2005).]
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{That's a great theory, except for the fact that Somali mtDNA is predominantly sub-Saharan, thus explaining their appearance}
Thought Writes:
Like his usage of the terms "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" this is yet another ruse used by Evil E to forestall the inevitable conclusion that tropically African derived genes have flowed into the Mediterranean region of Europe since the Holocene. The term Sub-Saharan Africa is a geographic one. It relates to any region south of the Sahara desert. Hence, the Horn of Africa is a part of Sub-Saharan Africa. The mtDNA of Horn populations is primarily East African in derivation. East and West Africans share in the COMMON L2a mtDNA gene pool that spread to East and West Africa from Central Africa prior to the LGM and the spread of E3b lineages out of Africa. Hence, if Somali’s look the way they look because of this genetic lineage so did the E3b1 carrying Africans that spread into the Mediterranean during the Mesolithic period. Furthermore mtDNA analysis indicates that populations as far afield as Senegal share in the M1 East African gene pool as do populations from Chad. Chadic speaking Central African populations carry substantial frequencies of the E3b1 lineage as do the Tuareg from Niger and the Mandenka from Senegal. All of this demonstrates the pan-African spread of genetic lineages and the Black African root of E3b1.
{That's a great theory, except for the fact that Somali mtDNA is predominantly sub-Saharan, thus explaining their appearance}
Thought Writes:
Like his usage of the terms "Negroid" and "Caucasoid" this is yet another ruse used by Evil E to forestall the inevitable conclusion that tropically African derived genes have flowed into the Mediterranean region of Europe since the Holocene. The term Sub-Saharan Africa is a geographic one. It relates to any region south of the Sahara desert. Hence, the Horn of Africa is a part of Sub-Saharan Africa. The mtDNA of Horn populations is primarily East African in derivation. East and West Africans share in the COMMON L2a mtDNA gene pool that spread to East and West Africa from Central Africa prior to the LGM and the spread of E3b lineages out of Africa. Hence, if Somali’s look the way they look because of this genetic lineage so did the E3b1 carrying Africans that spread into the Mediterranean during the Mesolithic period. Furthermore mtDNA analysis indicates that populations as far afield as Senegal share in the M1 East African gene pool as do populations from Chad. Chadic speaking Central African populations carry substantial frequencies of the E3b1 lineage as do the Tuareg from Niger and the Mandenka from Senegal. All of this demonstrates the pan-African spread of genetic lineages and the Black African root of E3b1.
...and why the following from the earlier study is nonsense:
"that the Somali male population has...approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa."
quote:Originally posted by Super car: ...and why the following from the earlier study is nonsense:
"that the Somali male population has...approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa."
Eventually, in order to salve the wounded false pride of ethnocentrists, sub-sahara will be so redefined as to constutute 15 hectres of land in the remotest regions of the central African rain forests. And no more!
quote: All of this demonstrates the pan-African spread of genetic lineages and the Black African root of E3b1.
Dark skin evolved pari passu with the loss of body hair and was the original state for the genus Homo. - Nina G. Jablonski Department of Anthropology, California Academy of Sciences, San Francisco, [Annual Review of Anthropology] Oct 2004
East Africans are Black because they always have been.
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 March 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by rasol: E3b did not reach Europe until the Neolithic farmers baring E3b from Black Africa and J from West Asia introduced it to Europe (along with farming).
quote:Disney would be less bad off using the bogus 'hybrid' theory to explain the Paternal ancestry from Black Africa in Southern Europeans
I fail to see how an environmentally selected gene from West Africa helps your case regarding a non-recombining Y-chromosome marker from East Africa. Evidently, you've sunk to the incoherent "kitchen sink" approach instinctively resorted to when one is drowning.
That said, Southern Europeans are, of course, not hybrid. Whereas East Africans most certainly are. Which brings us right back to the Bottom Line and your painfully obvious lack of answers.
quote:Dark skin evolved pari passu with the loss of body hair and was the original state for the genus Homo. - Nina G. Jablonski Department of Anthropology, California Academy of Sciences, San Francisco, [Annual Review of Anthropology] Oct 2004
East Africans are Black because they always have been.
We've been over this before. Jablonsky says "dark" skin, not "Black". And I've never claimed that East Africans were once light-skinned. They were, however, skeletally Caucasoid and not Negroid.
quote:Subracial Types of Neolithic Agriculturalists
Good luck persuading anyone that your Attica prison photos have any bearing on skeletal remains of Neolithic agriculturalists about whom the following was noted.... "...one can identify NEGROID traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and MACEDONIAN first farmers (Angel, 1972), probably FROM NUBIA (Anderson, 1969) via the unknown predecessors of Badarians..."
quote:I fail to see how an environmentally selected gene from West Africa helps your case regarding a non-recombining Y-chromosome marker from East Africa
as thalassemia and sickle cell distribution historically coincided with malarial regions (the diseases provided protection from malaria), doesn't this disprove the supposition of migration spreading these diseases? ?
NO. To address this, we must consider when the mutations probably occurred, and factors such as how frequently mutations of any kind naturally occur in human populations generally. (In a large population, depending on the gene, it could take dozens or hundreds of generations for a mutated genetic trait to become widespread.) Moreover, the extent of malaria historically present in Sicily (in swamps, for example) would have to be carefully studied in archival records which provide little information on the subject because malaria was rarely considered an epidemic worth noting. We know that malaria existed in Sicily into the 1940s, but before then it had been much less frequent here since the Middle Ages. Interestingly, the Saracens (Moors), one of the peoples whose arrival probably brought these genes to Sicily, were experts at irrigation and swamp drainage and had, immediately prior to their arrival in Sicily, resided in dry regions. In the case of Sicily, the population of the island was so sparse under the native peoples (Elymi, Sicans, Sicels) when the Phoenicians and Greeks arrived circa 800 BC that many genetic traits must necessarily be attributed to mass colonisation by these "foreign" peoples.
It seems clear enough to everyone else, what's taking you so long?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 March 2005).]
quote:We've been over this before. Jablonsky says "dark" skin, not "Black".
Terminology assistance for slow learners...
Blacks - person belonging to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin.
Africans - person belonging to any of various population groups native to Africa.
Clade - a biological group sharing a common ancestry.
East African are PN2 clade Black Africans. West African are PN2 clade Black Africans.
Southern Europeans have ancestry from PN2 clade Black Africans
from East Africa:
and from West Africa:
You understand this, Best of Sicily understands this, and so does virtually everyone else participating in these threads Disney. So, why not admit it? I promise you once you do, you'll start to feel better and no longer need to hate.
But what's taking so long?
[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 12 March 2005).]
The obvious flaw in this study is that the authors break the Horn populations out based upon ethnic groups; it breaks the Middle Eastern and European populations out based upon nationality; it then lumps all West Africans together. Of course the other flaw is the sample size error. 201 Somali's compared to 65 West Africans! A reasonable comparison would have been 201 Somali's to 201 people from Mali or 201 people from Ghana, not 65 lumped West Africans!!!!
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 12 March 2005).]
But how did they get away with such a flawed experimental design--201 Somalis v. 65 "West Africans"--to the point of getting the obviously flawed research published?
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In Sanchez et al. they claim that Spaniards have zero E3a linages. But if you go to the following link and go to table one you will see that the Spanish from Huelva carry West African E3a at a frequency of 4.5% and Malaga carry it at a frequency of 3.8%.
I imagine if region specific studies instead of pooled national studies are done we will see the same results through-out the Mediterranean. This is consistant with the mtDNA evidence from Ashkenazi Jews and Separdic Jews who also carry low frequencies of West African derived lineages as well as the presence of the Benin variant Sickle Cell trait through-out southern Europe.
[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 13 March 2005).]
But how did they get away with such a flawed experimental design--201 Somalis v. 65 "West Africans"--to the point of getting the obviously flawed research published?
Thought Writes:
I would imagine it has something to do with there are not enough of **US** going into biological anthropology and being there to call them out on this B.S. That is why I have made a point of contacting them directly and quizing them.
posted
Middle Atlas Berbers have just slightly less E-M81 than Mozabites (71% vs. 80%), plus they have 10% E-M78. Coon describes them as "usually long-faced and hook-nosed, with heavy beards":
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If E3b were "Black African", Middle Atlas Berbers would be 40% black and look it. And you would surely have some answers by now.
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quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: If E3b were "Black African", Middle Atlas Berbers would be 40% black and look it.
One can only laugh at your ongoing inability or unwillingness to understand what everyone else has grasped by now....haplotype does not equal phenotype.
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Genetics have no relationship with phenotype. I believe that you agreed to this notion in one of your earlier thread(s).
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: E-M81 is sometimes called the signature Berber Haplotype. It is most heavily found among the Mozabites of the Algerian Sahara.
quote:One can only laugh at your ongoing inability or unwillingness to understand what everyone else has grasped by now....haplotype does not equal phenotype.
You claim in one post that Mozabites look black because of E3b, and then in the very next post that haplotypes don't correlate with phenotypes. What was that you were saying about internal contradiction?
Of course E3b correlates with phenotype, but the phenotype it correlates with is Caucasoid:
- Groups who have a lot of E3b, and whose remaining DNA is Eurasian, look Caucasoid. - Groups who have a lot of E3b, and whose remaining DNA is sub-Saharan, look partly Caucasoid. - Groups who have very little E3b, and whose DNA is predominantly sub-Saharan, look Negroid.
This is the simple reality of the situation. Deal with it.
quote:You claim in one post that Mozabites look black because of E3b
Really? You mean this post....
quote: E-M81 is sometimes called the signature Berber Haplotype. It is most heavily found among the Mozabites of the Algerian Sahara. Mozabite Berbers
...funny, I don't see any such claim, perhaps it's written in invisible type? Or perhaps the facts have become too frustrating forcing you to resort once again to petty distortion.
If Erroneous E is looking for a contradiction he should have no difficulty finding them in his own foolish remarks..
Sorry E, you can't extricate yourself from your......
......own mess, by distorting the comments of others.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: ...funny, I don't see any such claim
Monkey, the only thing you know how to say is "E3b is Black African". You've said it at least five times in every thread I've been involved in. You've attempted to "back it up" with references to negroid traits and photos of wavy-haired Southern Europeans and mulatto Mozabites. Denying this now isn't going to help you any.
But regardless of your schizophrenic position on genes and race, the fact will always remain that . . .
quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: Monkey, the only thing you know how to say is "E3b is Black African". You've said it at least five times in every thread I've been involved in. You've attempted to "back it up" with references to negroid traits and photos of wavy-haired Southern Europeans and mulatto Mozabites. Denying this now isn't going to help you any.
But regardless of your schizophrenic position on genes and race, the fact will always remain that . . .
[b]Substantial E3b + Eurasian DNA =
Substantial E3b + Sub-Saharan DNA =
Sub-Saharan DNA + Minimal E3b =
DEAL WITH IT[/B]
I cant believe this guy is cruising the mail order bride sites for his dna analysis. Incredible!!!!!!
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mail order brides provide good fantasies. I suggest if you are single and an American citizen, this is the route to have a wife that is as beautiful as Halle Berry and Catherine Zheta Jones. You can choose from Russia, Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, Africa and Latin America Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rasol: Of course we have answers
Sorry, no answers there. Just an article about 150,000-year-old humans being similar to (non-Negroid) Khoisans. You need to provide the evidence requested of you. And fast, because your time is running out...
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Non-Negroid Khoisans? When was this even proven by you? As I have shown you earlier those fossils found in Ethiopia did look Negroid, unless you believe that Negroid = exagerrated West African.
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quote:Originally posted by Roy_2k5: Non-Negroid Khoisans? When was this even proven by you? As I have shown you earlier those fossils found in Ethiopia did look Negroid, unless you believe that Negroid = exagerrated West African.
"The San (Bushmen) in southern Africa are a group that physically looks quite different from other Negroids. Baker (1974), and Coon (1965) among others, have argued they are as different from Negroids as Caucasoids are, and should be treated as a separate race from other Negroids."
"Herto (and Jebel Irhoud) are H. sapiens, but with primitive features. They are not, racially speaking, Africans."
quote:Originally posted by Evil Euro: If E3b were "Black African", Middle Atlas Berbers would be 40% black and look it. And you would surely have some answers by now.
E3b in Berbers[M81 specifically] has high frequencies due to a founder effect[Arredi et tal, 2004]. Similarily the Uldeme have R1*-M173 at a frequency of almost 96%. Using your reasoning, if R1*-M173 was Caucasoid, the Uldeme would look like mulattoes.
[This message has been edited by Topdog (edited 18 July 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Super car: Another resort to the ambiguous use of "sub-Saharan", when Somali's are in fact in sub-Sahara.
European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 856−866
High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males
"Although the Horn of Africa is considered a geographic part of sub-Saharan Africa, we have analysed the Somali population separately in order to be able to compare the results with previously published data from other African populations."
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