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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Maserreyya, I have never in my life found EVER that women were lighter than men as any sort of rule. I disagree with this, not as an Egyptian issue, but as a people issue period. It is a nons ense statement and another one of those theoretical scientific hypotheses that gets thrown around to justify nonsense.
No one said it was any sort of "rule". Neither is it in Egypt but it is evident to an extent, and in any case there may in fact be a scientific explanation behind it. However, what's more important to me is the fact that Egyptians simply have that impression regardless of whether or not it's accurate. If the colors were symbolic of an overall perception of variation between men and women, which Egyptians still have, then it provides a clue.
quote: The other point I was making about the photo, is that there are a lot more kinky haired dark skinned Africans, that archaeologists said were not present Egypt, in the photos. It seems that in the past 100 years, you see less and less African Egyptians with tight curly hair than now.
First, I don't know how you can make out anyone's features to such detail in the black-and-white photos. The close-ups I have seen taken in the last century show the same people that continue to live the same lifestyle along the banks of the Nile today, from the Delta to Nubia with little to no change.
Delta
And please disabuse yourself of this offensive "Arab" vs. "African" Egyptian tripe that gets thrown around this place! It's been pointed out that there's a gradient north-to-south. If you are interested in seeing Egyptians that fit a specific African phenotype, I'm sure you'll find them. The identity question is an entirely separate issue since many of the people that you would consider "African-looking" consider themselves "Arab", even though this says nothing about their background.
quote:Originally posted by neo*geo The problem with both ideas is that the skin color of wall paintings represented different things over different time periods. However, during the New Kingdom, Egyptian art appears to have been more realistic than symbolic. During that period we see more wall paintings where women are depicted in the same skin reddish brown color as men.
...because they are depictions of mostly Theban women.
quote:This image is interesting. I think I've read that the jet-black woman in this painting is Queen Kemsit and her name meant "the lady is black." Her servants were more likely Syrio-Palestinian than Egyptian.
Here is yet another example of "explaining away". We would then have to dismiss essentially all ancient Egyptian portrayals of women from the OK to the MK and a sizeable portion of NK art as "Syrio-Palestinian", since all of them look identical to those women.
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quote:This image is interesting. I think I've read that the jet-black woman in this painting is Queen Kemsit and her name meant "the lady is black." Her servants were more likely Syrio-Palestinian than Egyptian.
Here is yet another example of "explaining away". We would then have to dismiss essentially all ancient Egyptian portrayals of women from the OK to the MK and a sizeable portion of NK art as "Syrio-Palestinian", since all of them look identical to those women.
Early during the Middle Kingdom, there begins to be mass migration of Syrio-Palestinian peoples into Egypt. Some were brought in as war captives. With no physical evidence all we can do is guess. However, just as Nubians were often(but not always) depicted with jet black skin color in Egyptian art, Asiatics were often(but not always) depicted with yellowish skin color throughout Egyptian history. Putting historicals facts together to make an educated guess is not "explaining away" your point. One of us may be wrong, neither of us may be right but there is no physical evidence to help end our guessing. To be fair to other possibilities I used the term "more likely" leaving open the fact that I could be wrong.
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quote:Here is yet another example of "explaining away". We would then have to dismiss essentially all ancient Egyptian portrayals of women from the OK to the MK and a sizeable portion of NK art as "Syrio-Palestinian", since all of them look identical to those women.
During the New Kingdom there is papyri of Syrian names of servents working within the houses of Thebes[Waset]. See Oxford History of Ancient Egypt edited by Ian Shaw.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:And please disabuse yourself of this offensive "Arab" vs. "African" Egyptian tripe that gets thrown around this place as if there's any truth to it. It's been pointed out that there's a gradient north-to-south. If you are interested in seeing Egyptians that fit a specific African phenotype, I'm sure you'll find them. The identity question is an entirely separate issue since many of the people that you would consider "African-looking" consider themselves "Arab", even though this says nothing about their background.
Yes,but please remember that many nomadic Arab tribes imported into Egypt during both the Umayyad and Fatimid period assimilated with many of the fellaheen in the Delta and Middle Egypt. Some nomadic Imazghen[Berber] tribes from Morocco and the surrounding deserts also assimilated with fellaheen populations.
Caliph Hisham during the 700's A.D. by decree moved many Syrian bedouins into the Delta regions of Bilbeys. Fatimids moved many around modern day Middle Egypt where many were rewarded land.
During the Mameluke period the Hawaara were moved from the Delta into modern day Sohag. In the late 1800's Mohammed Ali settled what remaining Arab tribes existed in parts of Middle Egypt. Still the difference between the fellaheen and bedouin is noticeable. Many village names bear the ethnic labels of settled Bedouin and nomadic Imazghen communities in parts of Beni Suef,Asyut ,and Minya.
I agree,however,that the notion of an Arab vs. African label is rather misleading.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: Early during the Middle Kingdom, there begins to be mass migration of Syrio-Palestinian peoples into Egypt. Some were brought in as war captives.
"Syrio-Palestinian war captives" in the Middle Kingdom does not explain the depiction of the overwhelming majority of Egyptian women since the Old Kingdom in that particular hue.
quote:Originally posted by ausar: During the New Kingdom there is papyri of Syrian names of servents working within the houses of Thebes[Waset]. See Oxford History of Ancient Egypt edited by Ian Shaw.
Mentuhotep II reigned early during the Middle Kingdom (to which the tomb image I posted would be dated).
Posts: 100 | From: Egypt | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: During the New Kingdom there is papyri of Syrian names of servents working within the houses of Thebes[Waset]. See Oxford History of Ancient Egypt edited by Ian Shaw.Mentuhotep II reigned early during the
Middle Kingdom (to which the tomb image I posted would be dated)
I apologize for this. I meant to say Middle Kingdom:
Here is my reference:
The annals refer to a small group of Egyptians
entering Bedouin territory[probablly a region
of the Sinai in order to 'hack up the land';
and two more attacks were directed at an
unknown walled towns. The victims are
described as Aamu[Asiatics, and 1,554 of them
are said to have been captured as prisoners.
These large numbers of foreign captives may
well explain the extensive lists of Asiatics
slaves working in the houses of Thebes[Waset]
in later times.
Oxford History of Ancient Egypt edited by Ian Shaw
page 163
Egyptian intolerance toward the 'easteners'
was already apparent in the reign of Senusret
I, who described himself as the throat
slitter of Asia, and this general perception
is reinforced by execration texts.
page 167
Oxford History of Ancient Egypt edited by Ian Shaw
posted
the reason that people are likely to use the Arab vs. African Egyptian is because Egyptians are usually categorized as either Arabs or black. but it's misleading because ALL Egyptians are African, whether they are actual black Africans or not.
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: ...please remember that many nomadic Arab tribes imported into Egypt during both the Umayyad and Fatimid period assimilated with many of the fellaheen in the Delta and Middle Egypt. Some nomadic Imazghen[Berber] tribes from Morocco and the surrounding deserts also assimilated with fellaheen populations.
Ausar, you and I have been through this one before along with the anthropological and genetic evidence to date. I have seen no indication that the assimilation of such people within the local population has effected any significant changes. Furthermore, I find it curious that the same population interactions and more have regularly taken place in Nubia and the Horn, for example, yet the people still look overwhelmingly like Africans from that part of Africa. But when it comes to Egyptians some want to explain the fact that they don't look "black enough" to be African by whatever means possible, however illogical.
Actually now that I think of it, East Africans do go through this process also from what I've been told, but they seem to be "dark enough" so perhaps it doesn't happen as often!
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quote:Ausar, you and I have been through this one before along with the anthropological and genetic evidence to date. I have seen no indication that the assimilation of such people within the local population has effected any significant changes. Furthermore, I find it curious that the same population interactions have regularly taken place in the Horn and more, for example, yet the people still look overwhelmingly like Africans from that part of the world. Yet, when it comes to Egyptians some people want to explain the fact that they don't look "black enough" by whatever means possible, however illogical.
Actually now that I think of it, East Africans do go through this process also from what I've been told, but they seem to be "dark enough" so it doesn't happen as often!
Well, I am not geneticist but I do know the history of Late Period Egypt to modern Egypt brought many foreign populations in Egypt. Even before such period the Delta was an area that brought many nomadic groups from Western Asia that grazed their livestock. Texts like The Ipuwer papyrus,Tales of Sinuhe,and Instructions of Meri-ka-Re indicate such movement was common place.
This was not just the movement of Arabs either but of other groups that migrated to Egypt. Libyans[whom many tie to modern Berbers] migrated in large numbers during the New Kingdom to both the Delta regions and parts of Middle Egypt. I see no reason why such movements would not have had a impact upon the Egyptian population.
One thing I learned from personal communication from a geneticist is that physical traits are not always connected to halotypes of alleles,and that loci percentages in Y-chromsom and Mtdna are often inaccurate.
One other point is that many of the Egyptian Christian population you can place right next to a Greek or Syriac and hardly tell the difference between the two. Of course there are also Egyptian Christians in Luxor that have the same rich-brown complexion of fellow Muslims. During the Middle Ages al-Maqrizi described that an Egyptian Christian could hardly be distinguished from a Nubian,Abyssian,or a Jewish person. Notice that Arab writers often called Beja nomads the term Abyssinian also.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Where do you get the idea that Egypt is a Tropical country and its people have to be tropically adapted? There seems to be so much mass confusion on the part of afrocentric people, that it is not even funny.
Egypt's climate is Hot, but not tropical at all. Like most of North Africa and the Middle East it has a Dry Desert Climate, which is characterized by very Hot Summers and Mild Winters with plenty of sunshine, but the temperature at night can be very cold and sometimes reaches the low 30's.
This type of climate is not suited for tropically adapted people who are meant to live in Hot and Humid climates, like West Africa.
I personally believe that the Reddish Brown color of the Egyptians was symbolic, because very few people actually have that kind of coloration. Most Egyptians must have been lighter in color except some of the Southern Egyptians and/or Nubians.
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa:
quote:Originally posted by Masreyya: Actually, no, there are exceptions with regard to the men in plenty of sculptural evidence dated to the OK. There's also this funerary mask as an example from the MK:
I think this is by far Masreyya's best evidence for skin color diversity in Egypt since the Old Kingdom.
This funeary mask is in my opinon in clear contrast to any idea that the Ancient Egyptians were 100% tropically adapted people, though it should be noted this can easily be viewed as an exception.
It can be said even with such a mask that Ancient Egypt was primarily a tropcial African people as studies note a continuity from the old kingdom to the new kingdom.
Perhaps some lighter skinned people did come to Egypt from the Levant and assimilated into Egyptian culture but I still don't think Modern Egypt as a whole with it current diversity represents Ancient Egyptian diversity as far back as the Old Kingdom.
Not as far as the ratio between various skin colors and facial features, the population for one would have been significantly smaller. I still think the light skin vs. dark skin ratio was overwhelmingly in favor of dark skinned people.
posted
how do you know they must have been lighter in color? why don't you consider that they may have been darker? we really don't know the actual color of the ancient Egyptians, so we have to use all the info we have.
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: These large numbers of foreign captives may well explain the extensive lists of Asiatics slaves working in the houses of Thebes[Waset] in later times.
And yet, that doesn't say anything about the depiction of the women on Mentuhotep II's wife's tomb which is dated to the 11th dynasty before any significant contact with Palestine took place, and who at any rate look exactly like all portrayals of Egyptian women since the Old Kingdom.
quote: Well, I am not geneticist but I do know the history of Late Period Egypt to modern Egypt brought many foreign populations in Egypt.
I'd rather not keep rehashing this argument. All the genetic/anthrop. evidence I've seen points to mostly continuity.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian Masreyya, there are Egyptians today who look overwhelmingly African, and even many who look black enough for America's one drop rule. are you ever considered black, by anyone? what part of Egypt are you from?
I've been mistaken for African-American/Black on several occasions in the US. The most common nationalities I get are usually those that have African in them, like Brazilian or Puerto Rican. There are large Ethiopian and Indian communities where I live, and I've been mistaken for both. My roots are in the Delta and the area south of Saqqara/Dahshur. It's actually not very uncommon for Egyptians, especially Egyptian men, to pass for African-American if they live in or visit the US.
quote: Where do you get the idea that Egypt is a Tropical country and its people have to be tropically adapted? There seems to be so much mass confusion on the part of afrocentric people, that it is not even funny.
Egypt's climate is Hot, but not tropical at all. Like most of North Africa and the Middle East it has a Dry Desert Climate, which is characterized by very Hot Summers and Mild Winters with plenty of sunshine, but the temperature at night can be very cold and sometimes reaches the low 30's.
This type of climate is not suited for tropically adapted people who are meant to live in Hot and Humid climates, like West Africa.
I personally believe that the Reddish Brown color of the Egyptians was symbolic, because very few people actually have that kind of coloration. Most Egyptians must have been lighter in color except some of the Southern Egyptians and/or Nubians
The problem with this is that the population of the Nile Valley was not always established in Egypt but migrated from both further southward and from the Sahara when it was once moist.
Before 7500 B.C. much of the inhabitable land of the Nile Valley was covered with marshes.
The know arid Sahara was once much like the savanna area in modern day Kenya.
See the comment from Robert Morkot:
The Egyptians By Robert Morkot 2005
"What did the ancient egyptians look like"
pg. 10
"It is impossible to make a generalization about the appearance of a single population over a period of five thousand years, but we can say that the earliest population included African people from the upper Nile, African people from the regions of the Sahara and Modern Libya, and SMALLER numbers of people who had come from south-western Asia...."
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Actually, no, there are exceptions with regard to the men in plenty of sculptural evidence dated to the OK. There's also this funerary mask as an example from the MK
That guy looks more like an Asiatic than any native Egyptian. The beard is a dead give-away, since Egyptians usually did not portray themselves with THAT full a beard (the most they've given themselves is stubble).
quote:Originally posted by ausar: These large numbers of foreign captives may well explain the extensive lists of Asiatics slaves working in the houses of Thebes[Waset] in later times.
And yet, that doesn't say anything about the depiction of the women on Mentuhotep II's wife's tomb which is dated to the 11th dynasty before any significant interaction in Palestine took place, and who at any rate look exactly like all portrayals of Egyptian women since the Old Kingdom.
quote: Well, I am not geneticist but I do know the history of Late Period Egypt to modern Egypt brought many foreign populations in Egypt.
I'm not going through this one again. I don't see evidence of discontinuity or major change regardless of whatever population interactions may have taken place, and so I'm sticking to what most geneticists/anthropologists have to say about it.
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian Masreyya, there are Egyptians today who look overwhelmingly African, and even many who look black enough for America's one drop rule. are you ever considered black, by anyone? what part of Egypt are you from?
I've been mistaken for African-American/Black on several occasions in the US. The most common nationalities I get are usually those that have African in them, like Brazilian or Puerto Rican. My skin is dark olive to light brown. There are large Ethiopian and Indian communities where I live, and I've been mistaken for both. My roots are in the Delta and the area south of Saqqara/Dahshur (all northern Egypt). It's actually not very uncommon for Egyptians, especially Egyptian men, to pass for African-American.
these Egyptians also resemble African Americans a great deal
do you have kinky hair, which is typically described as a trait of the black race? i am Egyptian American and i am olive skinned, with fleshy lips and nappy hair. people say i resemble Tyra Banks. my dad, who is part Egyptian and part Puerto Rican, looks more like the Will Smith type. and my mom, who is all Egyptian descent, has the look of Beyonce, Halle Berry, etc. you can find many who look like us in southern Egypt.
how do you racially define yourself? the Egyptians who look like black Americans, if in America, ARE actually African American. if you think of it that way.
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do you have kinky hair, which is typically described as a trait of the black race? i am Egyptian American and i am olive skinned, with fleshy lips and nappy hair. people say i resemble Tyra Banks. my dad, who is part Egyptian and part Puerto Rican, looks more like the Will Smith type. and my mom, who is all Egyptian descent, has the look of Beyonce, Halle Berry, etc. you can find many who look like us in southern Egypt.
are you from Upper or Lower Egypt?
Did you read her post? She mentioned she was from the Delta region with connections to parts of Dashur area. This is not really Upper Egypt or '"Deep Sa3eed'',but areas south of Cairo can be considered almost Saeed.
Egyptians from various parts of Egypt have different hair textures from tightly curled to wavy and sometimes even straight. Some Saidi even in Luxor have a thick wavy type hair that is much like people from the Horn of Africa.
Here is an observation from Egyptologist Frank J. Yurco:
. Yes, Upper Egyptians, Copts and Muslims alike are dark complexioned, and their hair varies from wavy to kinky. Certainly, in the ante-bellum American South, they would have been classed with the other Africans who were enslaved.
Most sincerely, Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
-- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu
Picture of Toronto based Coptic rapper signed to Def Jux records:
posted
What's interesting is that no matter the complexion, all the skin shades are still found within the range of black Africans.
The yellowish color depicted on women is a color common to Khoisan people men and women alike.
And what about the Minoans? They too portrayed the sexes in much the same way in terms of color. Minoan men were depicted with reddish-brown skin with the main contrast with Egyptians being their features, while Minoan women were portrayed as blank white. Perhaps this scheme is due to Egyptian influence.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: That guy looks more like an Asiatic than any native Egyptian. The beard is a dead give-away, since Egyptians usually did not portray themselves with THAT full a beard (the most they've given themselves is stubble).
Well, we don't know if he has an "Asiatic" background or not, but either way he's Egyptian. It's true that ancient Egyptian men didn't usually wear a lot of facial hair. However, I just posted a picture of an Egyptian family with a fully bearded man:
Here's an image of a 4th Dynasty (OK) prince:
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: do you have kinky hair, which is typically described as a trait of the black race?... how do you racially define yourself?
I don't have that type of hair, but many Egyptians do. My permanent home is Egypt. I'm only in the US temporarily, so I don't define myself "racially" in any sense.
Haven't heard of him before. Nice 'fro though He reminds of old footage of Egyptian football (soccer) players when some of them used to wear their hair like that.
quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Where do you get the idea that Egypt is a Tropical country and its people have to be tropically adapted? There seems to be so much mass confusion on the part of afrocentric people, that it is not even funny.
Egypt's climate is Hot, but not tropical at all. Like most of North Africa and the Middle East it has a Dry Desert Climate, which is characterized by very Hot Summers and Mild Winters with plenty of s
The reason you're confused PE, is because you don't appear to know a thing about bioanthroplogy.
Egypt is in a sub-tropical region as is all of the Sahara just above the Tropic of Cancer.
It's indegenious people migrated from East Africa, a tropcial region to settle the lower Nile valley, they were adapted to a tropical climate when they got there.
read this link and the PDFs in it I summarize everything there:
quote:PE writes: Where do you get the idea that Egypt is a Tropical country and its people have to be tropically adapted. There seems to be so much mass confusion....that it is not even funny.
Far and away you are the most utterly confused person in this thread, PE. However it IS funny - especially the way you combine condescension with complete lack of knowledge.
The whole point about tropical adaptation is that predyanstic physical remains in the Nile Valley show signs of tropical adaptation.
This suggests that the population came from more southerly regions.
But then, your comments indicate that you don't even know what tropical adaptation in skeletal remains consists of, do you?
Would you like to know?
I doubt it.
So why should we bother teaching you? Especially when you are slow to grasp that which we have already taught you.
Just listen to your nonsense.....
quote: This type of climate is not suited for tropically adapted people who are meant to live in Hot and Humid climates, like West Africa.
Haven't we taught you already that Blacks are the native population of North Africa?
Don't you know that the sahara desert stretches across Africa from West to East, and that much of Niger,Chad, Libya, Mali, Algeria, Senegal and Mauritania are also desert?
It's whites who are not native to the region PE, this includes the Greeks, Syrians, Turks and the Arabs who invaded North Africa FROM Asia in 639 AD and dominate the region today.
quote: Originally posted by ausar: Please remember that many nomadic Arab tribes imported into Egypt during both the Umayyad and Fatimid period assimilated with many of the fellaheen in the Delta and Middle Egypt. Some nomadic Imazghen[Berber] tribes from Morocco and the surrounding deserts also assimilated with fellaheen populations.
This is correct, as shown by the historical record, linguistic, physical and genetic data.
quote:Masreyya writes: Ausar, you and I have been through this one before along with the anthropological and genetic evidence to date. I have seen no indication that the assimilation of such people within the local population has effected any significant changes.
That's because you lack objectivity and simply blind yourself to anything that contradicts what you want to see. However, it can be stated that the presence of haplotypes VII and VIII, characteristic of the Near East, are probably primarily associated with movements during the Islamic era. -SOY Keita, 2005.
You quote from the above study which directly contradicts you, then pretend not to understand what was said. How can Ausar or anyone else educate you given such ideological obstinance on your part?
Masreyya, let us know when [if] you're ready to stop playing games and honestly confront the issues.
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posted
Masreyya let us know if this helps to refresh your memory:
quote:Masreyya wrote: Which brings me to why I'm here in the first place. I come upon the article by Sonia Zakrezewski, co-authored by Robert A. Foley and Marta M. Lahr, and published in the same volume I was looking at. It's titled "Change and Continuity over the Predyanstic and Early Dynastic Periods of Ancient Egypt" and can be found in Egyptology at the Dawn of the 21st century: Proceedings of the Eighth International Congress of Egyptologists.
Egyptology at the Dawn of the Twenty-First Century: Proceedings of the 8th International Congress of Egyptologists, Cairo, year 2000, Volume 1 Archaeology
quote:I couldn't help notice that her conclusions in the study were completely at odds with what the study you cited during our last conversation supposedly suggested!
Her later work, you mean?
quote:You may have already surmised from this that Zakrzewski is planning to resuscitate the old "Dynastic Race Theory"
lol. When?
Zakrzewski, S. R. 2003 Variation in Ancient Egyptian Stature and Body Proportions. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121(3): 219-229.
Stature and the pattern of body proportions were investigated in a series of six time-successive Egyptian populations in order to investigate the biological effects on human growth of the development and intensification of agriculture, and the formation of state-level social organization. Univariate analyses of variance were performed to assess differences between the sexes and among various time periods. Significant differences were found both in stature and in raw long bone length measurements between the early semipastoral population and the later intensive agricultural population. The size differences were greater in males than in females. This disparity is suggested to be due to greater male response to poor nutrition in the earlier populations, and with the increasing development of social hierarchy, males were being provisioned preferentially over females. Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.
The level of morphological variation within a population is the result of factors such as population expansion and movement. Traditionally Egyptologists have considered ancient Egypt to have a homogeneous population, with state formation occurring as a result of local processes without influence from migration. This paper tests this hypothesis by investigating the extent of biological relationships within a series of temporally successive Egyptian skeletal samples. Previous studies have compared biological relationships between Egyptians and other populations, mostly using the Howells global cranial data set. In the current study, by contrast, the biological relationships within a series of temporally-successive cranial samples are assessed.
The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables from 418 adult Egyptian individuals, from six periods, ranging in date from c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal Component and Canonical Discriminant Function Analyses were undertaken, on both pooled and single sex samples.
The results suggest a level of local population continuity exists within the earlier Egyptian populations, but that this was in association with some change in population structure, immigration and admixture with new groups. Most dramatically, the results also indicate that the Egyptian series from Howells global data set are morphologically distinct from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially in cranial vault shape and height), and thus show that this sample cannot be considered to be a typical Egyptian series.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
^^ FYI, there are fake population maps floating around the internet which purport to show that AE were European in physical type, and which are based on the late period samples which in fact show infiltration into Km.t population from Europe and the Levant, and which Dr. Zakrewski so found to be non represenative.
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do you have kinky hair, which is typically described as a trait of the black race? i am Egyptian American and i am olive skinned, with fleshy lips and nappy hair. people say i resemble Tyra Banks. my dad, who is part Egyptian and part Puerto Rican, looks more like the Will Smith type. and my mom, who is all Egyptian descent, has the look of Beyonce, Halle Berry, etc. you can find many who look like us in southern Egypt.
are you from Upper or Lower Egypt?
Did you read her post? She mentioned she was from the Delta region with connections to parts of Dashur area. This is not really Upper Egypt or '"Deep Sa3eed'',but areas south of Cairo can be considered almost Saeed.
Egyptians from various parts of Egypt have different hair textures from tightly curled to wavy and sometimes even straight. Some Saidi even in Luxor have a thick wavy type hair that is much like people from the Horn of Africa.
Here is an observation from Egyptologist Frank J. Yurco:
. Yes, Upper Egyptians, Copts and Muslims alike are dark complexioned, and their hair varies from wavy to kinky. Certainly, in the ante-bellum American South, they would have been classed with the other Africans who were enslaved.
Most sincerely, Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
-- Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu
Picture of Toronto based Coptic rapper signed to Def Jux records:
i didn't see that part at first of her post (stupid me) but i went back and read it, and edited my post.
i have also noticed that even some very light Egyptians have the kinky, tight hair of black Africans. and also i've seen ones who look identical to Horn Africans, but have a type of thick wavy hair. so yeah, hair texture does vary.
that looks pretty much identical to me, except i wear my hair longer and sometimes braided, sometimes naturally kinky, and sometimes straightened. but i also have a narrower nose than Tyra did, pre nose job.
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quote:Originally posted by Masreyya: [QB]And yet, that doesn't say anything about the depiction of the women on Mentuhotep II's wife's tomb which is dated to the 11th dynasty before any significant contact with Palestine took place, and who at any rate look exactly like all portrayals of Egyptian women since the Old Kingdom.
When I posted paintings of of Egyptian women having the same reddish-brown skin color as the men, you wrote them all off as being from around Thebes. Being that Mentuhotep II ruled Egypt from Thebes, by your own logic it is even less likely that the yellow skin color of the servants in that painting was realistic. The Middle Kingdom is really where Asiatics began to move into Egypt in larger numbers but even before there was mass migration of the Palestinian types into Egypt, the Pharoahs would bring women from all over the known world into their harems or to work as servants. Sometimes women would be given as tribute from other kingdoms.
I understand the point you're trying to make but scientifically, it makes no rational sense that women of the same ethnicity as their male counterparts are generally lighter in complexion.
No one here is saying that there were no native Egyptians of lighter tropical African features until later periods. As early as dynasties 4-5 we see evidence of this. However, dynasty 4 is interesting because there seems to be a mix of tropical African types with coastal north African types all in the same royal family.
Note that Egypt is essentially tropical/subtropical and its most northern portion approximates Delhi, India. In terms of Africa, South Africa has more territory outside the 30th parallel that Egypt.
But we should not forget that high altitude places like Kenya, Ethiopia and the Fouta in Guinea, West Africa are year-round cooler than Egypt.
In terms of the North America, Egypt's most northern portion is on level with Northern Florida and Southern Alabama, Lousiana, etc.
Egypt has always been tropical/sub-tropical like South Africa.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Correct, Lamin, and as the climate maps linked to earlier demonstrate, during parts of the holocene when the salient lineages [E3b1 delta, E3a] where established, much of Egypt had a climate not unlike Kenya.
It was as this area dried out, during the Neolithic that primarily native African populations converged on the Nile Valley, from the South, the Western and Eastern deserts - NOT primarily from the Delta which didn't exist at this time.
The delta is built up by the geological paradox of a dry climate and an overflowing river which allows sediment to be built up over time into dry land.
Certainly there have been Asiatic semites there in lesser or greater number since the Neolithic -and today, and this is why anthropology in the pre-dynastic delta is patchy and inconclusive.
It is the equivalent of studying cemetary remains in areas of Europe which are lightly populated, and even so, populated by variable numbers of foreigners from North and West Africa.
The ongoing effort of these settler/descendants to confuse themselves with Native North African km.t, 'nubians' and amazigh is a form of political propaganda.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Masreyya: No one said it was any sort of "rule". Neither is it in Egypt but there's truth to it to an extent, and the fact that there may be a scientific explanation behind it does lend support to that view. However, what's more important to me is the fact that Egyptians simply have that impression regardless of whether or not it's accurate. If the colors were symbolic of an overall perception of variation between men and women, which Egyptians still have, then it provides a clue.
Masareyya you are over generalizing and lumping together things making dumplings.... We are not at dinner. What I am saying is that you should not generalize and misrepresent the facts by taking fragments of funerary art from ancient Egypt to make a point. You have to look at the images in the context of the ENTIRE tomb or temple and to a larger degree ALL of the ancient monuments if you are going to try and make a good judgements based on facts. In my opinion, the color yellow for females was symbolic in Egyptian art, period. This is consistent with the stylistic cannon of Egyptian art from the beginning of Egyptian dynasties. However, even with this, there are plenty of examples where women are portrayed in the same colors as men and or other ligther shades, including light tan or pink. Therefore, with this in mind, there is no question that there were some lighter skinned people in Egypt. The point I am making is that many try and take images out of context in order to make a larger point as to what proportion of the population was more lighter versus more darker or whatever. I would say that any theory that ignores the fact that the MAJORITY of the Egyptian images were of medium to dark brown skinned people is biased, because of the evidence, not because I want to see it one way or the other.
quote:First, I don't know how you can make out anyone's features to such detail in the black-and-white photos. The close-ups I have seen taken in the last century show the same people that continue to live the same lifestyle along the banks of the Nile today, from the Delta to Nubia with little to no change.
I don't disagree about the pictures being the same people that you see in Egypt today. However, I am making a point that in some of the older photos, you do see more images of Egyptians with tight curly hair than seen now. I am not saying that there are no Egyptians with tight curly hair, however, I am against those who say that the hair styles of the ancient Egyptians was symbolic or only wigs and not really tight and curly, as seen in some periods were men wore afros (not wigs) or even the crowns that had depictions of curls. There is no doubt that you have many Egyptians with tight curly hair today. The other point is that you dont often see the Egyptian sidelock anymore, whereas I have seen older pictures of Egyptians or other Africans with the hairstyle. This I look at as a vestige of an ancient tradition that is being lost.
quote:And please disabuse yourself of this offensive "Arab" vs. "African" Egyptian tripe that gets thrown around this place! It's been pointed out that there's a gradient north-to-south. If you are interested in seeing Egyptians that fit a specific African phenotype, I'm sure you'll find them. The identity question is an entirely separate issue since many of the people that you would consider "African-looking" consider themselves "Arab", even though this says nothing about their background.
I agree. My only contention, which is not really with you, is that Egyptology has officially been trying to deny the presence of certain features in the Egyptian population. This has bee used to reinforce a notion of Egyptians as being exclusively one complexion, having one hair type and so on, in which ancient Egyptians almost always come out looking like the Tut reconstruction and not like the other phenotypes present in Egypt to this day.
quote:Here is yet another example of "explaining away". We would then have to dismiss essentially all ancient Egyptian portrayals of women from the OK to the MK and a sizeable portion of NK art as "Syrio-Palestinian", since all of them look identical to those women.
This is the problem with taking fragments of images from a tomb or temple and trying to extrapolate and make a point. Take the FULL scene or tomb into context, along with other tombs and temples from the same period into consideration before making judgement or broad generalizations.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Perfect Egyptian: Where do you get the idea that Egypt is a Tropical country and its people have to be tropically adapted? There seems to be so much mass confusion on the part of afrocentric people, that it is not even funny.
Egypt's climate is Hot, but not tropical at all. Like most of North Africa and the Middle East it has a Dry Desert Climate, which is characterized by very Hot Summers and Mild Winters with plenty of sunshine, but the temperature at night can be very cold and sometimes reaches the low 30's.
This type of climate is not suited for tropically adapted people who are meant to live in Hot and Humid climates, like West Africa.
I personally believe that the Reddish Brown color of the Egyptians was symbolic, because very few people actually have that kind of coloration. Most Egyptians must have been lighter in color except some of the Southern Egyptians and/or Nubians.
Actually, Egypt's climate is sub-tropical for it lies just outside of the Tropic of Cancer. In fact, past anthropologists have classified Egyptian remains as sub-tropical Africans. Besides, the desert did not always exist and Egypt like the rest of North Africa was once grassland.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Underpants Man: That guy looks more like an Asiatic than any native Egyptian. The beard is a dead give-away, since Egyptians usually did not portray themselves with THAT full a beard (the most they've given themselves is stubble).
Well, we don't know if he has an "Asiatic" background or not, but either way he's Egyptian. It's true that ancient Egyptian men usually didn't wear facial hair. However, I just posted a picture of an Egyptian family with a fully bearded man:
Here's an image of a 4th Dynasty (OK) prince:
quote:Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian: do you have kinky hair, which is typically described as a trait of the black race?... how do you racially define yourself?
I don't have that type of African hair but many Egyptians do. My permanent home is Egypt. I'm only in the US temporarily, so I don't define myself "racially" in any sense.
Haven't heard of him before. Nice 'fro though He reminds of old footage of Egyptian football (soccer) players when some of them used to wear their hair like that.
Any zamalkaweyya here?
Farouk Gaafar
Egyptians can wear full beards but usually ones that are not that large or long. Northern Egyptians on average tend to be lighter than southern Egyptians but is there any certain this could be attributed to Asiatic ancestry?
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Masreyya: I've been mistaken for African-American/Black on several occasions in the US. The most common nationalities I get are usually those that have African in them, like Brazilian or Puerto Rican. My skin is dark olive to light brown. There are large Ethiopian and Indian communities where I live, and I've been mistaken for both. My roots are in the Delta and the area south of Saqqara/Dahshur (all northern Egypt). It's actually not very uncommon for Egyptians, especially Egyptian men, to pass for African-American if they live in or visit the US.
This is nothing new. Modern-day Egyptians are primarily a mixture of Africans and Middle-Easterners. We all know this so what is the issue?
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Neoclassical Queen Cleopatra Sculptural Bust A replica inspired by artifacts from the late Alexandrian period
With characteristic cobras gracing her regal, feathered headdress and ornate earrings, the most famous of all Egyptian queens becomes a life-size bust. Cast in quality designer resin, our sculpture is hand-painted in a polished basalt finish with antiqued faux gold accents to highlight the detail. A stunning decorative element and a great addition to any established or fledgling collection of Egyptian artifacts!
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: ...read this link and the PDFs in it I summarize everything there: Cleopatra and Ancient Egypt
MM, your example of an "Egyptian family" is actually a picture of Nubians: http://members5.blackplanet.com/Black_Opera_Man/ The 2nd one (of the girls) is a little more representative, but not on the whole.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: How can Ausar or anyone else educate you given such ideological obstinance on your part? Masreyya, let us know when [if] you're ready to stop playing games and honestly confront the issues.
When you learn how to conduct yourself like a person in public, I may consider paying more than a passing glance at what you "write" without skipping it in total disgust.
Posts: 100 | From: Egypt | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: When I posted paintings of of Egyptian women having the same reddish-brown skin color as the men, you wrote them all off as being from around Thebes. Being that Mentuhotep II ruled Egypt from Thebes, by your own logic it is even less likely that the yellow skin color of the servants in that painting was realistic.
There *are* indeed illustrations of lighter-complexioned women in New Kingdom art too; earlier, I posted an image of a Theban-based tomb showing a wall relief both of lighter and darker-colored women right next to each other. We do see other scenes of lighter Egyptian women from that location/period, such as this one from the New Kingdom tomb of Rekhmire:
No doubt, this is more of a reflection of the increased population contact between north and south after the capital was moved to Upper Egypt, than between Egypt and Palestine! It is more than a mere coincidence that Old Kingdom Memphite art is overwhelmingly dominated by lighter-complexioned women (and northern-looking men) while Theban art is predominantly characterized by depictions of darker women, both of whom for the most part happen to look just like northern and southern Egyptian women respectively.
quote:The Middle Kingdom is really where Asiatics began to move into Egypt in larger numbers but even before there was mass migration of the Palestinian types into Egypt, the Pharoahs would bring women from all over the known world into their harems or to work as servants. I understand the point you're trying to make but scientifically, it makes no rational sense that women of the same ethnicity as their male counterparts are generally lighter in complexion.
To you it doesn't, but I'm expected take a "mass migration" of Syrio-Palestinian women as a "rational" explanation for the fact that Egyptian women were uniformly portrayed in such manner, with the exception of most Theban women!! Perhaps you should withhold judgment with regard to the scientific evidence until you've looked at the literature:
"Sexual differences in skin reflectance In order to test the hypothesis that females and males of the same populations differ in their average skin reflectance, we selected data from specific populations where skin reflectance measurements had been taken and reported separately for males and females. A standard two-sample t-test was used to determine the significance of the differences between the sexes at the same locality.... Females were found to be significantly lighter (i.e., displaying higher reflectance values) than males regardless of the filter used to measure the reflectance." (my emphasis)
"Comparison of skin reflectances between the sexes confirmed previous observations that human females are consistently lighter than males (Byard, 1981; Robins, 1991). Although female skin coloration darkens through adolescence and adulthood and only lightens after 45 (Wiskemann &Wisser, 1956; Byard, 1981), females are still significantly lighter (that is, show a higher value for skin reflectance) than males for populations in which males and females are represented from the same location. This suggests that the lighter skin pigmentation of females is needed to permit relatively greater UV light penetration of the integument for previtamin D3 synthesis. The extra calcium needs of females during pregnancy and lactation are met by increasing plasma concentrations of 1.25-dihydroxyvitamin D, which in turn enhances calcium absorption in the intestine (Wilson et al., 1990; Whitehead et al., 1981). Skin pigmentation in human females thus represents a complex compromise between the exigencies of photoprotection and previtamin D3 synthesis."
"The documentation of lighter skin in females than in males for all populations raises a serious question concerning the validity of the hypothesis that human skin coloration is in large part determined by sexual selection (Diamond, 1988, 1991). Were this so, one would have to postulate that there was a universal preference of males for females slightly lighter than themselves, even in populations purported to prefer dark skin (e.g., Tasmanians; Diamond, 1988, 1991). Avoidance of the sun by females is practiced in some cultures and is probably maintained as a custom in those cultures in part by mate choice. It is unlikely, however, that this acquired custom would have any effect on constitutive pigmentation through time unless inherently more lightly pigmented females who also avoided the sun were more reproductively successful than more darkly pigmented females who followed the same practice. We suggest that lighter pigmentation in human females began as a trait directly tied to increased fitness and was subsequently reinforced and enhanced in many human populations by sexual selection."
Posts: 100 | From: Egypt | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: My only contention, which is not really with you, is that Egyptology has officially been trying to deny the presence of certain features in the Egyptian population.
Ok, but that's a broad generalization about Egyptology too. This may have been true in the past, but today there's definitely a spectrum. I think Professor Yurco was a great example.
Posts: 100 | From: Egypt | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by neo*geo: When I posted paintings of of Egyptian women having the same reddish-brown skin color as the men, you wrote them all off as being from around Thebes. Being that Mentuhotep II ruled Egypt from Thebes, by your own logic it is even less likely that the yellow skin color of the servants in that painting was realistic.
But there *are* illustrations of lighter-complexioned women in Theban art also; earlier, I posted an image of a Theban-based tomb showing a wall relief of both lighter and darker-colored women right next to each other. We do see other scenes of lighter Egyptian women from that location/period, such as this one from the New Kingdom tomb of Rekhmire:
This is no doubt more of a reflection of the increased population contact between north and south after the capital was moved to Upper Egypt, than between Egypt and Palestine! It is more than a mere coincidence that Old Kingdom Memphite art is overwhelmingly dominated by lighter-complexioned women (and northern-looking men) while Theban art is predominantly characterized by depictions of darker women, both of whom for the most part happen to look just like northern and southern Egyptian women respectively.
quote:The Middle Kingdom is really where Asiatics began to move into Egypt in larger numbers but even before there was mass migration of the Palestinian types into Egypt, the Pharoahs would bring women from all over the known world into their harems or to work as servants. I understand the point you're trying to make but scientifically, it makes no rational sense that women of the same ethnicity as their male counterparts are generally lighter in complexion.
To you it doesn't, but I'm expected take a "mass migration" of Syrio-Palestinian women as your "rational" explanation for the fact that Egyptian women were uniformly portrayed in such manner, with the exception of most Theban women!! Perhaps you should withhold judgment with regard to the scientific evidence until you've looked at the literature:
Ausar is not saying that Egyptian women were portrayed with such light complexions because of Syrio-Palestinian ancestry. He is merely saying that such depictions of skin color are symbolic and should not be taken at face value to be the actual skin color.
"Sexual differences in skin reflectance In order to test the hypothesis that females and males of the same populations differ in their average skin reflectance, we selected data from specific population where skin reflectance measurements had been taken and reported separately for males and females. A standard two-sample t-test was used to determine the significance of the differences between the sexes at the same locality.... Females were found to be significantly lighter (i.e., displaying higher reflectance values) than males regardless of the filter used to measure the reflectance."
"Comparison of skin reflectances between the sexes confirmed previous observations that human females are consistently lighter than males (Byard, 1981; Robins, 1991). Although female skin coloration darkens through adolescence and adulthood and only lightens after 45 (Wiskemann &Wisser, 1956; Byard, 1981), females are still significantly lighter (that is, show a higher value for skin reflectance) than males for populations in which males and females are represented from the same location. This suggests that the lighter skin pigmentation of females is needed to permit relatively greater UV light penetration of the integument for previtamin D3 synthesis. The extra calcium needs of females during pregnancy and lactation are met by increasing plasma concentrations of 1.25-dihydroxyvitamin D, which in turn enhances calcium absorption in the intestine (Wilson et al., 1990; Whitehead et al., 1981). Skin pigmentation in human females thus represents a complex compromise between the exigencies of photoprotection and previtamin D3 synthesis."
"The documentation of lighter skin in females than in males for all populations raises a serious question concerning the validity of the hypothesis that human skin coloration is in large part determined by sexual selection (Diamond, 1988, 1991). Were this so, one would have to postulate that there was a universal preference of males for females slightly lighter than themselves, even in populations purported to prefer dark skin (e.g., Tasmanians; Diamond, 1988, 1991). Avoidance of the sun by females is practiced in some cultures and is probably maintained as a custom in those cultures in part by mate choice. It is unlikely, however, that this acquired custom would have any effect on constitutive pigmentation through time unless inherently more lightly pigmented females who also avoided the sun were more reproductively successful than more darkly pigmented females who followed the same practice. We suggest that lighter pigmentation in human females began as a trait directly tied to increased fitness and was subsequently reinforced and enhanced in many human populations by sexual selection."
LOL We have gone over this study before in a couple of threads. What you apparently don't understand is that such a color disparage between the sexes couldn't be that great, where the men are dark brown but the women are light yellow!!
Gay Robins' thesis is the one that is most accurate in terms of Egyptian artistic expression. Lower Egyptian males tended to be lighter in color than southern females, yet if a Lower Egyptian male and his southern Egyptian wife were to be portrayed under the traditional conventions, then he would have been dark and his wife light. Thus the color schemes are not always reflective of reality.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Ausar is not saying....
My response was to neo*geo.
quote:LOL We have gone over this study before in a couple of threads. What you apparently don't understand...
Do you know how to start a sentence without this tacky "LOL" that precedes a lot of your messages?
quote:...if a Lower Egyptian male and his southern Egyptian wife were to be portrayed under the traditional conventions, then he would have been dark and his wife light.
Ahmose-Nefertari was conventionally depicted as darker next to Amenhotep, which I think was a reflection of her dark skin-tone:
quote:Masareyya Quote: But there *are* illustrations of lighter-complexioned women in Theban art also; earlier, I posted an image of a Theban-based tomb showing a wall relief of both lighter and darker-colored women right next to each other. We do see other scenes of lighter Egyptian women from that location/period, such as this one from the New Kingdom tomb of Rekhmire:
This is no doubt more of a reflection of the increased population contact between north and south after the capital was moved to Upper Egypt, than between Egypt and Palestine! It is more than a mere coincidence that Old Kingdom Memphite art is overwhelmingly dominated by lighter-complexioned women (and northern-looking men) while Theban art is predominantly characterized by depictions of darker women, both of whom for the most part happen to look just like northern and southern Egyptian women respectively.
Why do you choose to exempt the images from this tomb from the stylistic convention in the rest of Egypt? If women are painted light yellow symbolically in Egyptian art, why would that not apply to this tomb as well? It seems you are bending the rules as you see fit to make interperetations that dont make sense. If there was a massive influence of lighter skinned people in the New Kingdom, then all the people in the tomb would have had lighter skin, not just the women. Or are you saying that there were ONLY lighter skinned women in the north? You are contradicting yourself. Like I said over and over again, look at the WHOLE picture from a tomb of a given time period before trying to make broad judgements, because you dont get the big picture by only taking fragments as evidence.
quote:Originally posted by Masonic Rebel: Djehuti Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Again, Cleopatra is NOT ethnically Egyptian. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Wrong:
Cleopatra was Egyptian
She was born in Africa
She was Influence by African culture
So no one in Cleopatra blood line during the Ptolemaic dynasty never interbred with any of the original Africans who lived there.
Yeah Right.
Yes, it's possible that the Ptolemies mixed with the native Egyptians several generations before Cleopatra and that they may not have looked that differently from the natives by the time she was born.
However that would be speculation.
The bust you are showing while beautiful is a replica of some other form of art and aesthetically doesn't prove anything it's just like Tut's basalt statue and being jet black doesn't prove anything.
Cleopatra's body has never been discovered so there can be no anthropological approach to this discussion.
All we know of her ancestry is that her lineage itself was foreign, the Ptolemies were Macedonian, not Egyptian.
The Ptolemies like most Greco-Romans were xenophobic, they felt their culture was superior and were very unlikely to take a child born to a non-Greek as an heir to the throne.
Alexander the Great had several assassination attempts on his life for marrying Persian women and proposing his children with them to be heirs to the throne, that's how strongly they were opposed to such practices.
So while there are many possibilities the likelyhood of Cleopatra having Egyptian ancestry is very small.
This bust of her made during her life time does not look like a Tropical African, not even an elongated African.
There are plenty of Egyptian queens that we know were ethnically Egyptian. Nefertari, Hatshepsut, Tiye, Nefertiti these queens were Egyptian queens whose families were native to Africa.
Posts: 1203 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Ya O'khti, El-7ameer dole kulohem maganeen wa la yestihlo aye Zouk.
quote:Originally posted by Masreyya:
quote:Originally posted by rasol: How can Ausar or anyone else educate you given such ideological obstinance on your part? Masreyya, let us know when [if] you're ready to stop playing games and honestly confront the issues.
When you learn how to conduct yourself like a mature adult in public, I may consider paying more than a passing glance at what you "write" without skipping it in total disgust.
quote:Originally posted by Mansa Musa: ...read this link and the PDFs in it I summarize everything there: Cleopatra and Ancient Egypt
MM, your example of an "Egyptian family" is actually a picture of Nubians: http://members5.blackplanet.com/Black_Opera_Man/ The 2nd one (of the girls) is a little more representative, but not on the whole.
This is a more accurate reflection:
This one is from Aswan:
but technically, they ARE an Egyptian family. the picture is (with all likeliness) a picture of Nubians in Egypt. and Nubians have lived in Egypt pretty much since its beginnings. so it IS an Egyptian family, but they are ethnically Nubian. i don't think you'd say that a Bantu family in Somalia aren't a "Somali family", would you?
too much distinction is made between Nubians and Egyptians, especially since Nubians are likely very indigenous to Egypt and Sudan.
Posts: 752 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:PE writes: Where do you get the idea that Egypt is a Tropical country and its people have to be tropically adapted. There seems to be so much mass confusion....that it is not even funny.
Far and away you are the most utterly confused person in this thread, PE. However it IS funny - especially the way you combine condescension with complete lack of knowledge.
The whole point about tropical adaptation is that predyanstic physical remains in the Nile Valley show signs of tropical adaptation.
This suggests that the population came from more southerly regions.
But then, your comments indicate that you don't even know what tropical adaptation in skeletal remains consists of, do you?
Would you like to know?
I doubt it.
So why should we bother teaching you? Especially when you are slow to grasp that which we have already taught you.
Just listen to your nonsense.....
quote: This type of climate is not suited for tropically adapted people who are meant to live in Hot and Humid climates, like West Africa.
Haven't we taught you already that Blacks are the native population of North Africa?
Don't you know that the sahara desert stretches across Africa from West to East, and that much of Niger,Chad, Libya, Mali, Algeria, Senegal and Mauritania are also desert?
It's whites who are not native to the region PE, this includes the Greeks, Syrians, Turks and the Arabs who invaded North Africa FROM Asia in 639 AD and dominate the region today.
Sorry.
I'm not God so I'm not going to say whites are not native to Africa, but one thing is for sure Berbers who have the same skin color as Arabs,and Hebrews are native to North Africa. Africa is not exclusively for dark people, the same Asia is not exclusively for tanned people.
When the Muslims conquered Egypt at the time when Omar ibn al Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) was Khalifa, a Muslim leader who happened to be a black man named Ubaydah ibn Thamit, took a party of the Muslims to meet Muqawqis, the Christian leader of Egypt.
When the Muslims came to Muqawqis, with Ubaydah in the lead, Muqawqis was frightened by the color of his skin.
‘Get this black man away from me and bring someone else,' he demanded. The Muslims refused. They insisted that Ubaydah was the best among them and was their leader who they obeyed and whose judgment they deferred to. They told Muqawqis that the color of a person does not matter to them. Finally Muqawqis had no choice but talk to the leader of that Muslim delegation.
These Muslims were practicing an Islamic principle that individual character is the base of preference not color of skin.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
some people get ethnicity and nationality confused. Egyptian is a NATIONALITY. anyone born in Egypt is "Egyptian". but an ETHNIC Egyptian can trace their ancestry through Egypt for generations. it's the same way in America, i am American by nationality but not by heritage.
once i met this other Egyptian who didn't consider Nubians in Egypt to be Egyptian at all, but they consider Omar Sharif to be a full fledged Egyptian. it's sickening. Posts: 752 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I'm not God so I'm not going to say whites are not native to Africa
lol. White people are not God, and should not be 'FEARED' as if they were God.
Whites are native to Europe. Why would one need to be God to assess the biological history of white people?
Whites who live in Africa have substantial European ancestry, this is true of fair skinned NorthWest African Amazigh, of South African Afrikaner, of fair skinned Arabs of the delta region of Egypt.
There is no proof or evidence that white skinned people ever evolved in Africa.
quote:but one thing is for sure Berbers who have the same skin color as Arabs,and Hebrews are native to North Africa.
Incorrect. Berber is a language group, not a skin color. There are black and white Berber. Berber is native to Africa - white skin is not.
quote: Africa is not exclusively for dark people, the same Asia is not exclusively for tanned people.
I agree. But that is a political statement. It has nothing to do with biology. Similarly, Europe is not exclusive for white people. I wonder why you leave Europe out of your political statement?
quote:When the Muslims conquered Egypt at the time when Omar ibn al Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) was Khalifa, a Muslim leader who happened to be a black man named Ubaydah ibn Thamit,
Absolutely correct. But, has no bearing on the fact that Km.t was not Arab, and was not Muslim.
Arabs and Islam are post Km.t.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Here's an image of a 4th Dynasty (OK) prince: 
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
He reminds of old footage of Egyptian football (soccer) players when some of them used to wear their hair like that. 
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
........... 
........... 
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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