quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Hyksos made an alliance with the Nubians. This imagery of Egypts hatred for the Hyksos Asiatics and Nubians clearly demonstrates the New Kingdom's aggressive policy of imperialism.
Both Asiatics and Kushites threatened Egyptian hegemony in the Nile Valley, not to mention the nation-state itself so of course the Egyptians during the New Kingdom had aggressive foreign policies!
quote:In review of the story of Moses this is an interesting correlation. An alliance between Asiatics and Nubians that when crushed brings about the New Kingdom which starts a policy of aggressive imperialism which results in enslavement of the Hebrew people.
Perhaps, but many Asiatics were enslaved regardless of whether they were Hebrew or not.
quote:Furthermore, such a reprisal against the Hyksos may have been due to the aggressive military control that the Hyksos used to maintain their dominance over the native Egyptian people. When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons, horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians. The result may have been that the Hyksos were a minority in the Egyptian nation but due to technological advantage was able to maintain control over the populace. Though like during Ptolemic times, the Hyksos colonial lords adopted Egyptian culture like the Greeks did, they were still despised. Considering this evidence, the Hyksos may not have used military power to gain dominance in Egypt but they certainly used it to maintain such dominance. That dominance included the use of Nubians to maintain the subjugation of the native Egyptians.
You have already been told that metalurgy, specifically copper was already used by the Egyptians since the beginning of the dynastic age. Why are you still talking about Hyksos introducing copper weapons?!
The only new and useful technology the Hyksos introduced which the Egyptians adopted was the horse and chariot and the composite bow.
quote:Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:
Numbers 12 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.
Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.
Huh??? The Biblical verse I gave you is directly from the King James Bible.
Number 12:1
And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: The Hyksos made an alliance with the Nubians. This imagery of Egypts hatred for the Hyksos Asiatics and Nubians clearly demonstrates the New Kingdom's aggressive policy of imperialism.
Both Asiatics and Kushites threatened Egyptian hegemony in the Nile Valley, not to mention the nation-state itself so of course the Egyptians during the New Kingdom had aggressive foreign policies!
quote:In review of the story of Moses this is an interesting correlation. An alliance between Asiatics and Nubians that when crushed brings about the New Kingdom which starts a policy of aggressive imperialism which results in enslavement of the Hebrew people.
Perhaps, but many Asiatics were enslaved regardless of whether they were Hebrew or not.
quote:Furthermore, such a reprisal against the Hyksos may have been due to the aggressive military control that the Hyksos used to maintain their dominance over the native Egyptian people. When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons, horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians. The result may have been that the Hyksos were a minority in the Egyptian nation but due to technological advantage was able to maintain control over the populace. Though like during Ptolemic times, the Hyksos colonial lords adopted Egyptian culture like the Greeks did, they were still despised. Considering this evidence, the Hyksos may not have used military power to gain dominance in Egypt but they certainly used it to maintain such dominance. That dominance included the use of Nubians to maintain the subjugation of the native Egyptians.
You have already been told that metalurgy, specifically copper was already used by the Egyptians since the beginning of the dynastic age. Why are you still talking about Hyksos introducing copper weapons?!
The only new and useful technology the Hyksos introduced which the Egyptians adopted was the horse and chariot and the composite bow.
quote:Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:
Numbers 12 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.
Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.
Actually its Bronze weapons that the Hyksos utilized over the Egyptians since it would appear that there is evidence for Egyptians using copper arrowheads from the 11th dynasty.
--> The Hyksos did eventually utilize superior bronze weapons, chariots and composite bows to help them take control of Egypt.
quote:Huh??? The Biblical verse I gave you is directly from the King James Bible.
Number 12:1
And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman
The Hebrew word for black is Cushi and when the Tanakh was translated into Greek the term that was used was aethiopies[burnt faced ones in Greek]. Many people assume that Ziporah of the Old Testament was a African Cushite when infact she was actually a Midianite. Midianites were eastern Cushites.
Also in the land of the Old Testament there were Cushites both in Western Asia and south of Egypt.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Numbers 12 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.
Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian. Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE
As the Middle Kingdom went into decline, groups of Asiatics appear to have migrated into the Delta and established settlements. The Second Intermediate Period began with the establishment of the 15th Dynasty at Avaris ( TeLL EL-Dabaa ) in the Delta. The 15th Dynasty rulers were largely contemporary with the line of minor Hyksos rulers who comprise the 16th Dynasty. The precise dates of these two dynasties, and more particularly their rulers, are uncertain, as are those of the 17th Dynasty, the last of the period. The 17th Dynasty ruled from Thebes, effectively acting as the "native" Egyptian government, as opposed to the foreign northern rulers.
Having established their capital at Avaris, the political influence of the hyksos appears to have gradually spread, with the development of centres such as TELL EL-YAHUDiYA and TELL EL-MASKHUTA, and the probable seizure of the important Egyptian city f Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad adn Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean. Seals at the Nubian site of KERMA bear the name SHESHI, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest know Hyksos king. The presence of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them to counter the oppos- ition of the 17th Dynasty in Upper Egypt. THe last rulers of the 17 Dynasty, SEQENENRA TAA II and KAMOSE campaigned openly against the hyksos, and Ahmose I, the first ruler of the 18th Dynasty, was eventually able to drive them from power, thus establishing the New Kingdom.
Hyksos : ( Egyptian heka khaswt : 'rulers of foreign lands' ) Term used to refer to a palestinian group ( or perhaps only there rulers ) who migrated to Egypt during the late Middle Kingdom ( c. 1800 - 1650 BC ) and rose to power in in Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period ( 1650 - 1550 BC ) . It used to be assumed that the Hyksos conquered Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty, but it's now recognized that the process was probably far more gradual and peaceful; according to donald redford, 'it's not unreasonable to assume that with the gradual weakening of royal authority, the Delta defenses were allowed to lapse, and groups of transhumants found it easy to cross the border and settle in Lower Egypt...Having persuaded oneself of this, the Hyksos assumption of power reveals itself as a peaceful takeover from within by a racial element already in the majority'. The Semitic names of such 15th- and 16th- .Dynasty Hyksos rulers as Khyan,Joama and their non-Egyptian origins. A number of new Kingdom texts, including the Ramesside Papyrus Sallier ( c. 1220 BC ) , suggest that the Hyksos interlude was essentially the ruthless imposition of Asiatic culture of that of the native Egyptians, but these were undoubtedly biased accounts., and th archaeological evidence is considerably more ambiguous.
The cemeteries, temples and stratified settlement remain at such eastern Delta sites as TELL EL-DAB'A,TELL EL-MASKHUTA and TELL EL-YAHUDIYA include considerable quantities of Syro-Palestin- ian material dating to the Middle Bronze age II period ( c. 2000-1700 BC. ) , but the Hyksos kings themselves have left few distinctively 'Asiatic'remains. The small number of royal sculptures of the Hyksos period largely adhere to the iconographic and stylistic traditions of the Middle Kingdom. There is some evidence to suggest that the rulers supported the traditional forms of government and adopted an Egyptian-style ROYAL TITULARY, although manfred Bietakhas discovered a door jamb at ( Tell El-Dab'a ) bearing the name of the Hyksos king Sokarher with the title heka khaswt. their major deity was SETH but they also worshipped other Egyptian gods as well as ANAT and ASTARTE, two closely related goddesses of Syro-Palestinian origin. Conventional forms of Egyptian literature, such as the Rhind Mathematical papyrus continued to be composed or copied.
Having established their capital at Avaris, they appear to have gradually spread westward, establishing centers such as TELL EL-YAHUDIYA, and taking control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of Hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad and Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean.
Seals at the Nubian site of Kerma bear the name Sheshi, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest known Hyksos king. The present of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them both to counter opposition in Upper Egypt, where a rival group, the 17th Theban Dynasty, were violently opposed to foreign rule. The second stele of KAMOSE,describing one of the Theban campaigns against the hyksos, includes clear references to a Nubian-Hyksos alliance by the end of the 17th dynasty.
During the Hyksos period, greater use was made of Horeses, and their use in warfare was developed through the introduction of the CHARIOT,which facilitated the development of new military techniques and strategies. the curved sword ( khepesh )was introduced, with body armour and helmets. Ironically, it was probably the adoption of such new military technology by the Thebans that helped their rulers to defeat the Hyksos , and to establish AHMOSE I ( 1550-1525 BC. ) as the first king of the 18th Dynasty, and founder of the New Kingdom ( 1550-1069 BC.).
The grave goods in Upper Egyptian private cemeteries of the Hyksos period (such as Abydos and Qau ) show great continuity with the pre-Hyksos period, suggesting that the cultural impact of the Hyksos rulers may have been restricted to the Delta region. even sites in the Memphite region and the western Delta show few indications of Palestinian influence. it has also been suggested by Harry Kemp that the apparent 'cultural hiatus'in the Fayum region during the second interm- ediate period may simply be an indication of political disrup- tion in those areas which has previously had a strong associ- ation with the Middle Kingdom central administration.
PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA. Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.
Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.
posted
Nonsense! It's as easy as 1-2-3 if you can reference the Seder `Olam, know the Aera Mundi calendar and how to correlate it to Julian calendar dates.
Any competent talmid less lone a hhakham can verify the date of the Exodus as 2448 AM (1313 BCE) per mesora qabbala shel y*hudi dati.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Actually iy is a very difficult to estimate when Hebrews were in Egypt based on the oral tradition of us Jews.
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posted
If the court were Hyksos Yosef wouldn't have had to eat seperately from them.
quote: And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, that did eat with him, by themselves; because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
B*re'shiyth 43:32 (JPS 1917)
quote: [Joseph] was served by himself, and [the brothers] by themselves. The Egyptians who were eating with them [were also] segregated. The Egyptians could not eat with the Hebrews, since this was taboo to the Egyptians.
B*re'shiyth 43:32 (Kaplan)
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ...theorizing that it was a Hyksos monarch before whom Joseph stood as an interpreter of dreams (Gen. 41:14-37) and who later ceded a choice parcel of land (Goshen) to Joseph's family (Gen. 47:6). . . . . ...the court itself would not have been Egyptian, but Hyksos
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posted
The Ktyw used copper weapons before Old Kingdom times and had bronze ones (the tin was imported) beginning in the Middle Kingdom .
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons , horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians.
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posted
Djehuti is correct. No Nubian wife is written about. Kushi is Hebrew for a dark skinned person. Only context can tell whether a particular Kushi is from Qevs or in fact even a fellow Hebrew.
Moshe's Kushi wife Ssiporah was from Midian. She's the one who is in the written Torah. He had another Kushi wife actually from Kush, but she's only in the midrash not in the written Torah account.
quote: Miriam and Aaron began speaking against Moses because of the dark-skinned woman he had married. The woman that [Moses] had married was indeed dark-skinned.
B*midh*bar 12:1 (Kaplan - after ibn Ezra and RD"K)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:
Numbers 12 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.
Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.
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posted
It's starting to look like your whole "Hebrew" hypothesis and corrallaries are being formulated as you go along. It's not presenting itself as something well thought out, and to any degree of depth over a lengthy period of research. This why you make a statement, then say you didn't make any such statement, then rearrange or otherwise alter the original statement all the while retaining the same intent instead of realizing you don't have the kind of evidence you need to support your various hypotheses.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Actually its Bronze weapons that the Hyksos utilized over the Egyptians since it would appear that there is evidence for Egyptians using copper arrowheads from the 11th dynasty.
--> The Hyksos did eventually utilize superior bronze weapons, chariots and composite bows to help them take control of Egypt.
quote:Huh??? The Biblical verse I gave you is directly from the King James Bible.
Number 12:1
And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman
The Hebrew word for black is Cushi and when the Tanakh was translated into Greek the term that was used was aethiopies[burnt faced ones in Greek]. Many people assume that Ziporah of the Old Testament was a African Cushite when infact she was actually a Midianite. Midianites were eastern Cushites.
Also in the land of the Old Testament there were Cushites both in Western Asia and south of Egypt.
This is a matter for a different thread. The Bible is clear: Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The Bible clearly notes that her father is a Midianite so why refer to her as an Ethiopian when we already know where her father is from? This only makes any sense to refer to her as an Ethiopian rather than a Midianite if we consider that her Mother was an Ethiopian. Besides the Midianites are Semitic people that according to the Bible are people who are of mixed ancestry (Hamitic and Semitic).
To the Egyptians, Ethiopians ARE Nubians. Ethiopia in the Bible is essentially Sudan and not Ethiopia of modern times. These people were normally referred to as Nubians. There really isn't a Nubian people but a diverse group of people that lived below the 4th cataract.
Also, the Bible is clear on Ethiopia being a Nation and not a description of people. The Bible clearly refers to Takahara as an Ethiopian King (the Pharoah of the 25 dynasty)? Did that mean he was a King with a Black face or was he a King of what is considered the Ethiopian state (which is actually Nubia)? There are plenty of references in the Bible to Ethiopia as a location. I think it is very questionable to apply Greek concepts to Hebrew oral tradition and I certainly would not use modern translations which have modern political concepts encoded.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Djehuti is correct. No Nubian wife is written about. Kushi is Hebrew for a dark skinned person. Only context can tell whether a particular Kushi is from Qevs or in fact even a fellow Hebrew.
Moshe's Kushi wife Ssiporah was from Midian. She's the one who is in the written Torah. He had another Kushi wife actually from Kush, but she's only in the midrash not in the written Torah account.
quote: Miriam and Aaron began speaking against Moses because of the dark-skinned woman he had married. The woman that [Moses] had married was indeed dark-skinned.
B*midh*bar 12:1 (Kaplan - after ibn Ezra and RD"K)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:
Numbers 12 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.
Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.
Moses's wife was Black but her father was a Midianite which to the Hebrews meant mixed ancestry. It is only logical to conclude that her Mother was an Ethiopian and that this is why she is referred to as an Ethiopian. The Bible clearly references Ethiopia as a nation state and not a physical description of people. If not then Egyptians would also be refered to as Ethiopian since many of them were just as Black as Ethiopians. Though Ethiopia and Egypt are often refered to as a single nation of people.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It's starting to look like your whole "Hebrew" hypothesis and corrallaries are being formulated as you go along. It's not presenting itself as something well thought out, and to any degree of depth over a lengthy period of research. This why you make a statement, then say you didn't make any such statement, then rearrange or otherwise alter the original statement all the while retaining the same intent instead of realizing you don't have the kind of evidence you need to support your various hypotheses.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Actually its Bronze weapons that the Hyksos utilized over the Egyptians since it would appear that there is evidence for Egyptians using copper arrowheads from the 11th dynasty.
--> The Hyksos did eventually utilize superior bronze weapons, chariots and composite bows to help them take control of Egypt.
Maybe it was the type of copper weapons that we advantagous to the Hyksos?
[/QB]
Thats how theories work. It gets more fine tuned with peer review and research. First you start with a hypothesis (a guess) and then you try to find evidence to support it. You must then subject the evidence to review. On and on.
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quote: Numbers 12 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.
Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian. Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE
As the Middle Kingdom went into decline, groups of Asiatics appear to have migrated into the Delta and established settlements. The Second Intermediate Period began with the establishment of the 15th Dynasty at Avaris ( TeLL EL-Dabaa ) in the Delta. The 15th Dynasty rulers were largely contemporary with the line of minor Hyksos rulers who comprise the 16th Dynasty. The precise dates of these two dynasties, and more particularly their rulers, are uncertain, as are those of the 17th Dynasty, the last of the period. The 17th Dynasty ruled from Thebes, effectively acting as the "native" Egyptian government, as opposed to the foreign northern rulers.
Having established their capital at Avaris, the political influence of the hyksos appears to have gradually spread, with the development of centres such as TELL EL-YAHUDiYA and TELL EL-MASKHUTA, and the probable seizure of the important Egyptian city f Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad adn Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean. Seals at the Nubian site of KERMA bear the name SHESHI, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest know Hyksos king. The presence of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them to counter the oppos- ition of the 17th Dynasty in Upper Egypt. THe last rulers of the 17 Dynasty, SEQENENRA TAA II and KAMOSE campaigned openly against the hyksos, and Ahmose I, the first ruler of the 18th Dynasty, was eventually able to drive them from power, thus establishing the New Kingdom.
Hyksos : ( Egyptian heka khaswt : 'rulers of foreign lands' ) Term used to refer to a palestinian group ( or perhaps only there rulers ) who migrated to Egypt during the late Middle Kingdom ( c. 1800 - 1650 BC ) and rose to power in in Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period ( 1650 - 1550 BC ) . It used to be assumed that the Hyksos conquered Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty, but it's now recognized that the process was probably far more gradual and peaceful; according to donald redford, 'it's not unreasonable to assume that with the gradual weakening of royal authority, the Delta defenses were allowed to lapse, and groups of transhumants found it easy to cross the border and settle in Lower Egypt...Having persuaded oneself of this, the Hyksos assumption of power reveals itself as a peaceful takeover from within by a racial element already in the majority'. The Semitic names of such 15th- and 16th- .Dynasty Hyksos rulers as Khyan,Joama and their non-Egyptian origins. A number of new Kingdom texts, including the Ramesside Papyrus Sallier ( c. 1220 BC ) , suggest that the Hyksos interlude was essentially the ruthless imposition of Asiatic culture of that of the native Egyptians, but these were undoubtedly biased accounts., and th archaeological evidence is considerably more ambiguous.
The cemeteries, temples and stratified settlement remain at such eastern Delta sites as TELL EL-DAB'A,TELL EL-MASKHUTA and TELL EL-YAHUDIYA include considerable quantities of Syro-Palestin- ian material dating to the Middle Bronze age II period ( c. 2000-1700 BC. ) , but the Hyksos kings themselves have left few distinctively 'Asiatic'remains. The small number of royal sculptures of the Hyksos period largely adhere to the iconographic and stylistic traditions of the Middle Kingdom. There is some evidence to suggest that the rulers supported the traditional forms of government and adopted an Egyptian-style ROYAL TITULARY, although manfred Bietakhas discovered a door jamb at ( Tell El-Dab'a ) bearing the name of the Hyksos king Sokarher with the title heka khaswt. their major deity was SETH but they also worshipped other Egyptian gods as well as ANAT and ASTARTE, two closely related goddesses of Syro-Palestinian origin. Conventional forms of Egyptian literature, such as the Rhind Mathematical papyrus continued to be composed or copied.
Having established their capital at Avaris, they appear to have gradually spread westward, establishing centers such as TELL EL-YAHUDIYA, and taking control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of Hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad and Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean.
Seals at the Nubian site of Kerma bear the name Sheshi, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest known Hyksos king. The present of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them both to counter opposition in Upper Egypt, where a rival group, the 17th Theban Dynasty, were violently opposed to foreign rule. The second stele of KAMOSE,describing one of the Theban campaigns against the hyksos, includes clear references to a Nubian-Hyksos alliance by the end of the 17th dynasty.
During the Hyksos period, greater use was made of Horeses, and their use in warfare was developed through the introduction of the CHARIOT,which facilitated the development of new military techniques and strategies. the curved sword ( khepesh )was introduced, with body armour and helmets. Ironically, it was probably the adoption of such new military technology by the Thebans that helped their rulers to defeat the Hyksos , and to establish AHMOSE I ( 1550-1525 BC. ) as the first king of the 18th Dynasty, and founder of the New Kingdom ( 1550-1069 BC.).
The grave goods in Upper Egyptian private cemeteries of the Hyksos period (such as Abydos and Qau ) show great continuity with the pre-Hyksos period, suggesting that the cultural impact of the Hyksos rulers may have been restricted to the Delta region. even sites in the Memphite region and the western Delta show few indications of Palestinian influence. it has also been suggested by Harry Kemp that the apparent 'cultural hiatus'in the Fayum region during the second interm- ediate period may simply be an indication of political disrup- tion in those areas which has previously had a strong associ- ation with the Middle Kingdom central administration.
PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA. Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.
Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.
Hyksos again
No such thing as a Nubian people. This is simply what we call the people to the South of Egypt and nothing more. Ethiopia is to the South of Egypt and the people the Greeks called Ethiopian (such as the people of Meroe) we normally consider to be Nubians.
Ethiopia of the Bible is not Ethiopia as in modern day Ethiopia. However, the Bible does refer to the Meroitic dynasty as an Ethiopian state. Queen Candace of Meroe is referred to as an Ethiopian queen but we know she is Nubian.
Acts 8:27 (Whole Chapter) And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
I think you guys are falling into modern day concepts with modern political ideals and re-translating the clear and obvious meaning of the ancient scriptures.
If Ethiopia in the Bible simply meant "Black" then does the above scripture make any sense? According to Ausar, Dhjeuti and yourself, Queen Candance is the Queen of the Burnt face people? Clearly this is not what is meant. We know Queen Candance is an Nubian Queen hence it is logical to conclude that the Biblical reference to Ethiopia is a reference to the Nubian people in general. In this case it is a reference to a state rather than an abstact group of people.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Nonsense! It's as easy as 1-2-3 if you can reference the Seder `Olam, know the Aera Mundi calendar and how to correlate it to Julian calendar dates.
Any competent talmid less lone a hhakham can verify the date of the Exodus as 2448 AM (1313 BCE) per mesora qabbala shel y*hudi dati.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Actually iy is a very difficult to estimate when Hebrews were in Egypt based on the oral tradition of us Jews.
The Exodus is just a legend, an echo of some actual event. We cannot expect that such oral traditions are wholly accurate and not with significant religious and fanatical alterations. We especially cannot rely upon timetables even more so since we really can't even rely upon the Egyptian dynastic list. We don't know for sure the exact orders of the dynasties!
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quote: Numbers 12 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.
Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian. Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE
As the Middle Kingdom went into decline, groups of Asiatics appear to have migrated into the Delta and established settlements. The Second Intermediate Period began with the establishment of the 15th Dynasty at Avaris ( TeLL EL-Dabaa ) in the Delta. The 15th Dynasty rulers were largely contemporary with the line of minor Hyksos rulers who comprise the 16th Dynasty. The precise dates of these two dynasties, and more particularly their rulers, are uncertain, as are those of the 17th Dynasty, the last of the period. The 17th Dynasty ruled from Thebes, effectively acting as the "native" Egyptian government, as opposed to the foreign northern rulers.
Having established their capital at Avaris, the political influence of the hyksos appears to have gradually spread, with the development of centres such as TELL EL-YAHUDiYA and TELL EL-MASKHUTA, and the probable seizure of the important Egyptian city f Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad adn Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean. Seals at the Nubian site of KERMA bear the name SHESHI, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest know Hyksos king. The presence of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them to counter the oppos- ition of the 17th Dynasty in Upper Egypt. THe last rulers of the 17 Dynasty, SEQENENRA TAA II and KAMOSE campaigned openly against the hyksos, and Ahmose I, the first ruler of the 18th Dynasty, was eventually able to drive them from power, thus establishing the New Kingdom.
Hyksos : ( Egyptian heka khaswt : 'rulers of foreign lands' ) Term used to refer to a palestinian group ( or perhaps only there rulers ) who migrated to Egypt during the late Middle Kingdom ( c. 1800 - 1650 BC ) and rose to power in in Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period ( 1650 - 1550 BC ) . It used to be assumed that the Hyksos conquered Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty, but it's now recognized that the process was probably far more gradual and peaceful; according to donald redford, 'it's not unreasonable to assume that with the gradual weakening of royal authority, the Delta defenses were allowed to lapse, and groups of transhumants found it easy to cross the border and settle in Lower Egypt...Having persuaded oneself of this, the Hyksos assumption of power reveals itself as a peaceful takeover from within by a racial element already in the majority'. The Semitic names of such 15th- and 16th- .Dynasty Hyksos rulers as Khyan,Joama and their non-Egyptian origins. A number of new Kingdom texts, including the Ramesside Papyrus Sallier ( c. 1220 BC ) , suggest that the Hyksos interlude was essentially the ruthless imposition of Asiatic culture of that of the native Egyptians, but these were undoubtedly biased accounts., and th archaeological evidence is considerably more ambiguous.
The cemeteries, temples and stratified settlement remain at such eastern Delta sites as TELL EL-DAB'A,TELL EL-MASKHUTA and TELL EL-YAHUDIYA include considerable quantities of Syro-Palestin- ian material dating to the Middle Bronze age II period ( c. 2000-1700 BC. ) , but the Hyksos kings themselves have left few distinctively 'Asiatic'remains. The small number of royal sculptures of the Hyksos period largely adhere to the iconographic and stylistic traditions of the Middle Kingdom. There is some evidence to suggest that the rulers supported the traditional forms of government and adopted an Egyptian-style ROYAL TITULARY, although manfred Bietakhas discovered a door jamb at ( Tell El-Dab'a ) bearing the name of the Hyksos king Sokarher with the title heka khaswt. their major deity was SETH but they also worshipped other Egyptian gods as well as ANAT and ASTARTE, two closely related goddesses of Syro-Palestinian origin. Conventional forms of Egyptian literature, such as the Rhind Mathematical papyrus continued to be composed or copied.
Having established their capital at Avaris, they appear to have gradually spread westward, establishing centers such as TELL EL-YAHUDIYA, and taking control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of Hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad and Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean.
Seals at the Nubian site of Kerma bear the name Sheshi, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest known Hyksos king. The present of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them both to counter opposition in Upper Egypt, where a rival group, the 17th Theban Dynasty, were violently opposed to foreign rule. The second stele of KAMOSE,describing one of the Theban campaigns against the hyksos, includes clear references to a Nubian-Hyksos alliance by the end of the 17th dynasty.
During the Hyksos period, greater use was made of Horeses, and their use in warfare was developed through the introduction of the CHARIOT,which facilitated the development of new military techniques and strategies. the curved sword ( khepesh )was introduced, with body armour and helmets. Ironically, it was probably the adoption of such new military technology by the Thebans that helped their rulers to defeat the Hyksos , and to establish AHMOSE I ( 1550-1525 BC. ) as the first king of the 18th Dynasty, and founder of the New Kingdom ( 1550-1069 BC.).
The grave goods in Upper Egyptian private cemeteries of the Hyksos period (such as Abydos and Qau ) show great continuity with the pre-Hyksos period, suggesting that the cultural impact of the Hyksos rulers may have been restricted to the Delta region. even sites in the Memphite region and the western Delta show few indications of Palestinian influence. it has also been suggested by Harry Kemp that the apparent 'cultural hiatus'in the Fayum region during the second interm- ediate period may simply be an indication of political disrup- tion in those areas which has previously had a strong associ- ation with the Middle Kingdom central administration.
PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA. Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.
Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.
Hyksos again
Did you pay attention to your own post on this:
Seals at the Nubian site of Kerma
This logically means that the site of Kerma is Nubian meaning a Nubian state. This implies that the Kermans themselves were Nubian which is just the opposite of what you are trying to prove.
Besides: Nubia just means Gold and is just a reference to the land rather than the people. I am sure these people did not consider themselves Nubians but rather they were various groups who had specific identities that were known by the Egyptians.
Who coined the term Nubian anyways?
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posted
Can someone show me where in the Bible Ethiopia is used as a description of a person's skin color rather than their race or origins?
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posted
Ignore Kaplan's translation from B*midhbar at your own risk!
Anyone who's studied the relevant Greco-Latin texts knows that by "Ethiopian" they meant any black people in general and what today is northern Sudan in particular. See Herodotus 7.70.1 for Asian (eastern) Ethiopians and African (western) Ethiopians
The same holds true for the Hebrew texts where the word is KSHY which the Greek writers translated as Ethiopian. Only context decides which is meant, colour or nationality. Hebrews decided the nationality of nohhrim by father. Ssiporah's father Yithro was a Midyani one of Shemite peoples.The Midianite descendents of Shem are as black as Kushites and even some Israelites are so black enough that they are called Kushi.
quote: "Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over."
(PIRQE DE RABBI ELIEZER 28a)
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Moses's wife was Black but her father was a Midianite which to the Hebrews meant mixed ancestry. It is only logical to conclude that her Mother was an Ethiopian and that this is why she is referred to as an Ethiopian. The Bible clearly references Ethiopia as a nation state and not a physical description of people. If not then Egyptians would also be refered to as Ethiopian since many of them were just as Black as Ethiopians. Though Ethiopia and Egypt are often refered to as a single nation of people.
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posted
Then give it up. Without the Hebrew texts of B*re'shiyth and B*midhbar you have no reason to place Hebrews in KM.t before the 20th dynasty.
And you shouldn't have used them in reference to Joseph, or is it that you can use it when you think it suppors your hypothesis but it can't be of any value when it rips your hypothesis a new hole?
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Nonsense! It's as easy as 1-2-3 if you can reference the Seder `Olam, know the Aera Mundi calendar and how to correlate it to Julian calendar dates.
Any competent talmid less lone a hhakham can verify the date of the Exodus as 2448 AM (1313 BCE) per mesora qabbala shel y*hudi dati.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Actually iy is a very difficult to estimate when Hebrews were in Egypt based on the oral tradition of us Jews.
The Exodus is just a legend, an echo of some actual event. We cannot expect that such oral traditions are wholly accurate and not with significant religious and fanatical alterations. We especially cannot rely upon timetables even more so since we really can't even rely upon the Egyptian dynastic list. We don't know for sure the exact orders of the dynasties!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Ignore Kaplan's translation from B*midhbar at your own risk!
Anyone who's studied the relevant Greco-Latin texts knows that by "Ethiopian" they meant any black people in general and what today is northern Sudan in particular. See Herodotus 7.70.1 for Asian (eastern) Ethiopians and African (western) Ethiopians
The same holds true for the Hebrew texts where the word is KSHY which the Greek writers translated as Ethiopian. Only context decides which is meant, colour or nationality. Hebrews decided the nationality of nohhrim by father. Ssiporah's father Yithro was a Midyani one of Shemite peoples.The Midianite descendents of Shem are as black as Kushites and even some Israelites are so black enough that they are called Kushi.
quote: "Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over."
(PIRQE DE RABBI ELIEZER 28a)
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Moses's wife was Black but her father was a Midianite which to the Hebrews meant mixed ancestry. It is only logical to conclude that her Mother was an Ethiopian and that this is why she is referred to as an Ethiopian. The Bible clearly references Ethiopia as a nation state and not a physical description of people. If not then Egyptians would also be refered to as Ethiopian since many of them were just as Black as Ethiopians. Though Ethiopia and Egypt are often refered to as a single nation of people.
Of course I am going to ignore that translation. I will ask you again, where in the King James Bible is Ethiopia ever used as a description strictly of skin color? I would take it even further and say that Ethiopian in Jewish oral tradition equates to Nubian. This is similar to how the Greeks thought of the Nubian people whom they called "Ethiopian".
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Although today we speak of "ancient Nubia," the name "Nubia" did not exist before the Middle Ages. The term seems originally to have come from the tribal name "Nuba" or "Noba", which first appears in historical texts in the second century BC. The Noba were a nomadic people of uncertain origin who, when first mentioned, occupied the lands on the left bank of the Nile north of the confluence of the Blue and White Niles. By the fourth century AD, they were dwelling on both sides of the river and had absorbed the declining kingdom of Kush, centered at Mero‘. They were converted to Christianity in the sixth century AD and formed first three, then two, Christian kingdoms that flourished side by side until the fifteenth century. These people gave their name to these kingdoms, which were called "Nubian."
Nubia is not an Ancient Kingdom saying Nubia is like Saying I lived in the Bronx, New York in 1000 B.C
Osirion wrote:
quote: No such thing as a Nubian people. This is simply what we call the people to the South of Egypt and nothing more. Ethiopia is to the South of Egypt and the people the Greeks called Ethiopian (such as the people of Meroe) we normally consider to be Nubians.
Ethiopia of the Bible is not Ethiopia as in modern day Ethiopia. However, the Bible does refer to the Meroitic dynasty as an Ethiopian state. Queen Candace of Meroe is referred to as an Ethiopian queen but we know she is Nubian.
Acts 8:27 (Whole Chapter) And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
I think you guys are falling into modern day concepts with modern political ideals and re-translating the clear and obvious meaning of the ancient scriptures.
If Ethiopia in the Bible simply meant "Black" then does the above scripture make any sense? According to Ausar, Dhjeuti and yourself, Queen Candance is the Queen of the Burnt face people? Clearly this is not what is meant. We know Queen Candance is an Nubian Queen hence it is logical to conclude that the Biblical reference to Ethiopia is a reference to the Nubian people in general. In this case it is a reference to a state rather than an abstact group of people.
Wally and others are correct when studying history you need to understand languages and meanings because it helps the reader understand the history better because the answer to your quote has been given you didn't get it because you don't understand languages look here:
AlTakruri wrote:
quote: Djehuti is correct. No Nubian wife is written about. Kushi is Hebrew for a dark skinned person. Only context can tell whether a particular Kushi is from Qevs or in fact even a fellow Hebrew.
Moshe's Kushi wife Ssiporah was from Midian. She's the one who is in the written Torah. He had another Kushi wife actually from Kush, but she's only in the midrash not in the written Torah account.
The answer is Kushites( Ethiopians/Nubian) were different from the Aksumites (Ethiopians). Two different places comprised of people with similar types of skin color. See if you understood the language you would see that Moses was married to a Kushi or Black woman which is what is being said in the Hebrew language then translated as Ethiopian in Greek neither of these text mentioned Aksum (Ethiopia) so the truth of Moses wife can be confused here, which is what you did when you assumed that Moses was married to someone who lived in Ancient Aksum and not the home of the Midianites. Study your language or Read the Afrocentrics because they do a good job of clearing up these problems that show up when reading about History.
Osirion wrote:
quote: This logically means that the site of Kerma is Nubian meaning a Nubian state. This implies that the Kermans themselves were Nubian which is just the opposite of what you are trying to prove.
Wrong again because Kerma was Kerma which is a place located in the area that is associated with Modern day Sudan/Middle age Nubia, see how confusing this can get? Kerma is not Kush either because the Kushites joined forces with the Kemenu/Egyptians against the Kerma culture who had joined forces with the hyksos against Kemet. All this happened in the area of Kush/Nubia/Ta Seti/Sudan. Language is important if you want to get to the truth.
posted
The term Nubia may have come from the Noba people or from the Egyptian word Nub for the gold in the land of the South.
As for Moses's wife. I said she had a Nubian mother which means she was part Kushite. When did I say she was from Aksum? In the King James Bible references to Ethiopians actually means references to the Kushite. I absolutely agree with this and never said otherwise. However, Ethiopia is used in terms of a nationality and is never used to simply describe skin color. Midianites were a mixed peole (African Kushite and Asiatic Semite). It would be quite normal for a Midianites to have an African wife. This was very common for them.
As for your redundant reply on Kerma. The term Nubian is often overused to describe a diverse group of people living in what is now Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. That term would extend to Kerma as it is presently used. I agree that the term Nubian is not precise and the Kerma is better, however, you will find that many people refer to these groups of people simply as Nubia and so did the reference you supplied.
Nothing in your post actually counters anything I said but rather supports it but splits hairs on the term used to describe Kerma. I am not going to debate that.
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posted
You've already been shown an impeccable Jewish source, Kaplan's modern unantiquated translation. You choose to ignore its wording. You likely will ignore any other references which don't suit your purposes. But for the other readers sake, who may get something out of it, here goes.
Ethiopia appears in the Septuagint and you've been shown the Greeks had a general and a particular definition of Ethiopia.
The Greek Bible incorporates three collections of Hebrew texts; Torah, Nebi'iym, and Kethubiym. Race was unknown to the Hebrews but they applied the word Kushi to anyone as dark as somebody from Kush. Thus we have Israelites and Judahites who are Kushiym: * Yehudi ben Kushi (Jeremiah 36:14) * Zephaniah ben Kushi (Zephaniah 1:1) * Kush ben-Yemini (Psalm 7:1) The Talmud even refers to Saul in Cushite terms.
None of this can be taken in a vacuum and you've made a vacuum devoid of Hebrew language word usage.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Can someone show me where in the Bible Ethiopia is used as a description of a person's skin color rather than their race or origins?
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quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.
Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian. Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE
Actually, 'Ethiopia' was the term Greeks used for Africa in general, but especially Nubia!
And yest we all know about the Hyksos alliance with Kerma to split up Egypt between the two with Hyksos ruling Lower Egypt and Kerma ruling Upper Egypt!
quote:PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA. Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.
'Nubia' is a term the Romans used for lands south of Egypt, so yeah Kerma IS part of Nubia!
quote:Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.
Hyksos again
Yes very Asiatic in style and appearance
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Ktyw used copper weapons before Old Kingdom times and had bronze ones (the tin was imported) beginning in the Middle Kingdom .
quote:Originally posted by osirion:
When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons , horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians.
This is correct.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Stop putting words into my mouth. I never said that J clade is Jewish. I refer to Semitic speaking nomads of Western Asia as Hebrews having a common paternal ancester from 4 or 5 thousand years ago. Jews does not equate to Hebrew.
But since when did Hebrew mean Western Asian nomads?? The historical 'Hebrews' were but a small group. There were many others like the Amorites, the Aramaeans, Ugarites, Moabites, etc.
quote:This is a matter for a different thread. The Bible is clear: Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The Bible clearly notes that her father is a Midianite so why refer to her as an Ethiopian when we already know where her father is from? This only makes any sense to refer to her as an Ethiopian rather than a Midianite if we consider that her Mother was an Ethiopian.
No. 'Ethiopian' is a Greek word. The original Hebrew description was 'kushi' meaning dark or black. When the texts were translated into Greek it was only natural that the Greek word 'Ethiopian' was used instead. Mind you black or dark peoples does not necessarily mean African.
quote:Besides the Midianites are Semitic people that according to the Bible are people who are of mixed ancestry (Hamitic and Semitic).
Maybe, but the Near East is a region of diverse populations. Who knows what their origins are? They could have black ancestry from Africa or their black ancestry could be indigenous to Asia.
quote:To the Egyptians, Ethiopians ARE Nubians...
Incorrect, since the Egyptians never used either word! Ethiopian is a Greek term and Nubian a Roman one. The Egyptians themselves were specific and actually named the various groups that lived in the region of 'Ethiopia' or 'Nubia'
quote:Ethiopia in the Bible is essentially Sudan and not Ethiopia of modern times. These people were normally referred to as Nubians. There really isn't a Nubian people but a diverse group of people that lived below the 4th cataract.
But as Ausar says, the the Bible describes 'eastern Ethiopians/Kushites as well. What about them? There are blacks in southern Arabia in parts of Yemen. There are even ones as far east as India, although don't get Winters started!
quote:Also, the Bible is clear on Ethiopia being a Nation and not a description of people. The Bible clearly refers to Takahara as an Ethiopian King (the Pharoah of the 25 dynasty)? Did that mean he was a King with a Black face or was he a King of what is considered the Ethiopian state (which is actually Nubia)? There are plenty of references in the Bible to Ethiopia as a location. I think it is very questionable to apply Greek concepts to Hebrew oral tradition and I certainly would not use modern translations which have modern political concepts encoded.
Obviously when the Bible uses 'Ethiopia' here, it described the nation of Kush which is more specific!
Do you now see the problems with the semantics of words like 'Ethiopia' which describe something as superficial as skin color??!
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You've already been shown an impeccable Jewish source, Kaplan's modern unantiquated translation. You choose to ignore its wording. You likely will ignore any other references which don't suit your purposes. But for the other readers sake, who may get something out of it, here goes.
Ethiopia appears in the Septuagint and you've been shown the Greeks had a general and a particular definition of Ethiopia.
The Greek Bible incorporates three collections of Hebrew texts; Torah, Nebi'iym, and Kethubiym. Race was unknown to the Hebrews but they applied the word Kushi to anyone as dark as somebody from Kush. Thus we have Israelites and Judahites who are Kushiym: * Yehudi ben Kushi (Jeremiah 36:14) * Zephaniah ben Kushi (Zephaniah 1:1) * Kush ben-Yemini (Psalm 7:1) The Talmud even refers to Saul in Cushite terms.
None of this can be taken in a vacuum and you've made a vacuum devoid of Hebrew language word usage.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: Can someone show me where in the Bible Ethiopia is used as a description of a person's skin color rather than their race or origins?
I am a somewhat religious person and you offend me with this concept that the King James Bible would be so confusing. You continue to offer your own translation rather than dealing with the fact that the King James translation does NOT ever use the term Ethiopian to refer to people simply of dark skin. It is far more reasonable that the Midianites mixed with the Cushitic people which we have evidence that they did. A significant amount of mtDNA from Sudan and Ethiopia can be found in Yemen and various other places where the Midianites would have lived. We also know that there was extensive trade in the pre-Aksumite period between Ethiopia and the Arabian peninsula. It is quite reasonable that Eastern Kushites are simply a mixture of Midianites and Kushites. This is exactly what Jewish oral tradition implies! Midianites were seen as a mixed prople having African and Asiatic heritage.
Rather than inferring that the Bible is incorrect and translated wrong, this explaination is far simpler and has substantial evidence support it. There also is no other example in the King James Bible where Ethiopian simply means "Dark Skin".
Modern day Jews may not like the idea that Moses was married to a Black Woman and re-translate the Bible, but I will not do the same since I see that as racist.
Moses wife was of mixed ancestry - Ethiopian and Medianite. The entire tone of the verse I provided was clearly a tone of racism on the part of Aaron and Miriam. It is clear what the contention is.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Stop putting words into my mouth. I never said that J clade is Jewish. I refer to Semitic speaking nomads of Western Asia as Hebrews having a common paternal ancester from 4 or 5 thousand years ago. Jews does not equate to Hebrew.
But since when did Hebrew mean Western Asian nomads?? The historical 'Hebrews' were but a small group. There were many others like the Amorites, the Aramaeans, Ugarites, Moabites, etc.
quote:This is a matter for a different thread. The Bible is clear: Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The Bible clearly notes that her father is a Midianite so why refer to her as an Ethiopian when we already know where her father is from? This only makes any sense to refer to her as an Ethiopian rather than a Midianite if we consider that her Mother was an Ethiopian.
No. 'Ethiopian' is a Greek word. The original Hebrew description was 'kushi' meaning dark or black. When the texts were translated into Greek it was only natural that the Greek word 'Ethiopian' was used instead. Mind you black or dark peoples does not necessarily mean African.
quote:Besides the Midianites are Semitic people that according to the Bible are people who are of mixed ancestry (Hamitic and Semitic).
Maybe, but the Near East is a region of diverse populations. Who knows what their origins are? They could have black ancestry from Africa or their black ancestry could be indigenous to Asia.
quote:To the Egyptians, Ethiopians ARE Nubians...
Incorrect, since the Egyptians never used either word! Ethiopian is a Greek term and Nubian a Roman one. The Egyptians themselves were specific and actually named the various groups that lived in the region of 'Ethiopia' or 'Nubia'
quote:Ethiopia in the Bible is essentially Sudan and not Ethiopia of modern times. These people were normally referred to as Nubians. There really isn't a Nubian people but a diverse group of people that lived below the 4th cataract.
But as Ausar says, the the Bible describes 'eastern Ethiopians/Kushites as well. What about them? There are blacks in southern Arabia in parts of Yemen. There are even ones as far east as India, although don't get Winters started!
quote:Also, the Bible is clear on Ethiopia being a Nation and not a description of people. The Bible clearly refers to Takahara as an Ethiopian King (the Pharoah of the 25 dynasty)? Did that mean he was a King with a Black face or was he a King of what is considered the Ethiopian state (which is actually Nubia)? There are plenty of references in the Bible to Ethiopia as a location. I think it is very questionable to apply Greek concepts to Hebrew oral tradition and I certainly would not use modern translations which have modern political concepts encoded.
Obviosly when the Bible uses 'Ethiopia' here, it described the nation of Kush which is more specific!
Do you now see the problems with the semantics of words like 'Ethiopia' which describe something as superficial as skin color??!
Hebrew means nomadic and it was used to describe the nomadic people descended from Abraham. But it also has applications for other Semitic people that are also Asiatic nomads.
The most likely origin of word Hebrew is "ibri" which is derived from "br" which means "to cross over a boundary". (ISBE, revised, Hebrew) All have Semitic origins.
Included in this thought is that a "Hebrew" would be one "who crossed over" or one who went from place to place, a nomad, a wanderer, an alien.
This designation that would fit some aspects of patriarchal behavior. If this is correct, then a Hebrew is one who travels into another land as a nomad and resides as an alien. It also means that the term has origins outside of Palestine and is a common expression that was etymologically modified from a nomad to specific ethnic group (Jews) whose origin was nomadic through Abram.
Essentially, Hebrews is what the Semitic nomads became known as but later a specific group was labeled as (the descendents of Abraham).
The first time the word "Hebrew" is used in the Bible is in Gen 14:13. Abraham is first called a "Hebrew" in Gen 14:13.
Abraham - common paternal J marker ancestor.
Why is this so hard for you to understand. You keep arguing with this concept of Hebrew. For months you have argued against the idea that Hebrew does not mean Jew. The term was used hundreds of years before the term Jew was coined after the establishment of the city of Judah.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: I am a somewhat religious person and you offend me with this concept that the King James Bible would be so confusing. You continue to offer your own translation rather than dealing with the fact that the King James translation does NOT ever use the term Ethiopian to refer to people simply of dark skin. It is far more reasonable that the Midianites mixed with the Cushitic people which we have evidence that they did. A significant amount of mtDNA from Sudan and Ethiopia can be found in Yemen and various other places where the Midianites would have lived. We also know that there was extensive trade in the pre-Aksumite period between Ethiopia and the Arabian peninsula. It is quite reasonable that Eastern Kushites are simply a mixture of Midianites and Kushites. This is exactly what Jewish oral tradition implies! Midianites were seen as a mixed prople having African and Asiatic heritage.
Rather than inferring that the Bible is incorrect and translated wrong, this explaination is far simpler and has substantial evidence support it. There also is no other example in the King James Bible where Ethiopian simply means "Dark Skin".
Modern day Jews may not like the idea that Moses was married to a Black Woman and re-translate the Bible, but I will not do the same since I see that as racist.
Moses wife was of mixed ancestry - Ethiopian and Medianite. The entire tone of the verse I provided was clearly a tone of racism on the part of Aaron and Miriam. It is clear what the contention is.
Simply put, the King James version is the first version of the Bible to be written in vernacular English, but this does not change the actual origins and etymology of the word 'ethiopian'.
Ethiopian is a *Greek* word meaning burnt-face or black, and again this does not necessarily mean African since the Greeks themselves described peoples in India as being Ethiopians also!
The ancient Hebrews described Western Kushi who were Africans as well as Eastern Kushi, assumming those who were not. Ziporah was a Midianite, whose people come from the east. Therefore it is not really established if she was indeed of African ancestry or not, only that she was black or very dark.
quote:Hebrew means nomadic and it was used to describe the nomadic people descended from Abraham. But it also has applications for other Semitic people that are also Asiatic nomads.
The most likely origin of word Hebrew is "ibri" which is derived from "br" which means "to cross over a boundary". (ISBE, revised, Hebrew) All have Semitic origins.
Included in this thought is that a "Hebrew" would be one "who crossed over" or one who went from place to place, a nomad, a wanderer, an alien.
This designation that would fit some aspects of patriarchal behavior. If this is correct, then a Hebrew is one who travels into another land as a nomad and resides as an alien. It also means that the term has origins outside of Palestine and is a common expression that was etymologically modified from a nomad to specific ethnic group (Jews) whose origin was nomadic through Abram.
Essentially, Hebrews is what the Semitic nomads became known as but later a specific group was labeled as (the descendents of Abraham).
The first time the word "Hebrew" is used in the Bible is in Gen 14:13. Abraham is first called a "Hebrew" in Gen 14:13.
Abraham - common paternal J marker ancestor.
Why is this so hard for you to understand. You keep arguing with this concept of Hebrew. For months you have argued against the idea that Hebrew does not mean Jew. The term was used hundreds of years before the term Jew was coined after the establishment of the city of Judah.
Again, this is all a matter of semantics. If by Hebrew YOU mean Western Asian nomads, then so be it. But when most people speak of 'Hebrews' they specifically refer to the historical ethnic group who were the ancestors of the Jewish people. Even the scriptures as stated by the actual Hebrew people themselves, identified other groups living in the Levant besides them who they did not call Hebrews (consider them as part of their own group) even though they had a lot in common as nomadic pastoralists and may have been closely related.
Osirion, you may be a religious person and so am I, but I don't see how any of these facts conflict with your beliefs.
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Herodutus never referred to Indian people as Ethiopian. Please provide an example where the Greeks called Indian people Ethiopians. Regardless, in Jewish oral tradition there is no example where Ethiopian or Kushite is used to describe people of dark skin. To the contrary, there are plenty of examples of dark skin people who are not referred to as Ethiopians but are rather simply ashamed of being like Ethiopians.
In all of the scriptures, Ethiopian is used to desribe the Kushite people. In just one example a Midianite's daughter is referred to as an Ethiopian. However, perhaps Moses had more than one wife and that this Ethiopian wife is not the daughter of the Midianite. I strongly disagree with the idea that Ethiopian simply meant dark skin. The term in the scriptures is more akin to the racial term "Black". It is more than just skin color.
Here is every reference to Ethiopia in the King James Bible. Most of the time Ethiopia is reference with Egypt. It is exclusively used to refer to a people group and not the color of a person's skin.
This particular verse is very clear about Ethiopians being African: But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. : Libyans and Ethiopians are at the steps of Egypt.
Numbers 12:1 (Whole Chapter) And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2 Chronicles 12:3 (Whole Chapter) With twelve hundred chariots, and threescore thousand horsemen: and the people were without number that came with him out of Egypt; the Lubims, the Sukkiims, and the Ethiopians.
2 Chronicles 14:9 (Whole Chapter) And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.
2 Chronicles 14:12 (Whole Chapter) So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled.
2 Chronicles 14:13 (Whole Chapter) And Asa and the people that were with him pursued them unto Gerar: and the Ethiopians were overthrown, that they could not recover themselves; for they were destroyed before the LORD, and before his host; and they carried away very much spoil.
2 Chronicles 16:8 (Whole Chapter) Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.
2 Chronicles 21:16 (Whole Chapter) Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians:
Isaiah 20:4 (Whole Chapter) So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Jeremiah 13:23 (Whole Chapter) Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Jeremiah 38:7 (Whole Chapter) Now when Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, one of the eunuchs which was in the king's house, heard that they had put Jeremiah in the dungeon; the king then sitting in the gate of Benjamin;
Jeremiah 38:10 (Whole Chapter) Then the king commanded Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Take from hence thirty men with thee, and take up Jeremiah the prophet out of the dungeon, before he die.
Jeremiah 38:12 (Whole Chapter) And Ebedmelech the Ethiopian said unto Jeremiah, Put now these old cast clouts and rotten rags under thine armholes under the cords. And Jeremiah did so.
Jeremiah 39:16 (Whole Chapter) Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be accomplished in that day before thee.
Jeremiah 46:9 (Whole Chapter) Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
Ezekiel 30:9 (Whole Chapter) In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
Daniel 11:43 (Whole Chapter) But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Amos 9:7 (Whole Chapter) Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
Zephaniah 2:12 (Whole Chapter) Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword.
Acts 8:27 (Whole Chapter) And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Herodutus never referred to Indian people as Ethiopian. Please provide an example where the Greeks called Indian people Ethiopians. Regardless, in Jewish oral tradition there is no example where Ethiopian or Kushite is used to describe people of dark skin. To the contrary, there are plenty of examples of dark skin people who are not referred to as Ethiopians but are rather simply ashamed of being like Ethiopians.
Herodotus.VII.70
"The Eastern Ethiopians, differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the Eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world."
quote:In all of the scriptures, Ethiopian is used to desribe the Kushite people. In just one example a Midianite's daughter is referred to as an Ethiopian. However, perhaps Moses had more than one wife and that this Ethiopian wife is not the daughter of the Midianite. I strongly disagree with the idea that Ethiopian simply meant dark skin. The term in the scriptures is more akin to the racial term "Black". It is more than just skin color.
Again, "dark-skin" or "black" is exactly what the Greek word Ethiopian means! Although again, the word was Greek and the actual word the Hebrews used was kushi.
quote:Here is every reference to Ethiopia in the King James Bible. Most of the time Ethiopia is reference with Egypt. It is exclusively used to refer to a people group and not the color of a person's skin.
This particular verse is very clear about Ethiopians being African: But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. : Libyans and Ethiopians are at the steps of Egypt.
Numbers 12:1 (Whole Chapter) And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2 Chronicles 12:3 (Whole Chapter) With twelve hundred chariots, and threescore thousand horsemen: and the people were without number that came with him out of Egypt; the Lubims, the Sukkiims, and the Ethiopians.
2 Chronicles 14:9 (Whole Chapter) And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.
2 Chronicles 14:12 (Whole Chapter) So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled.
2 Chronicles 14:13 (Whole Chapter) And Asa and the people that were with him pursued them unto Gerar: and the Ethiopians were overthrown, that they could not recover themselves; for they were destroyed before the LORD, and before his host; and they carried away very much spoil.
2 Chronicles 16:8 (Whole Chapter) Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.
2 Chronicles 21:16 (Whole Chapter) Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians:
Isaiah 20:4 (Whole Chapter) So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
Jeremiah 13:23 (Whole Chapter) Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Jeremiah 38:7 (Whole Chapter) Now when Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, one of the eunuchs which was in the king's house, heard that they had put Jeremiah in the dungeon; the king then sitting in the gate of Benjamin;
Jeremiah 38:10 (Whole Chapter) Then the king commanded Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Take from hence thirty men with thee, and take up Jeremiah the prophet out of the dungeon, before he die.
Jeremiah 38:12 (Whole Chapter) And Ebedmelech the Ethiopian said unto Jeremiah, Put now these old cast clouts and rotten rags under thine armholes under the cords. And Jeremiah did so.
Jeremiah 39:16 (Whole Chapter) Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be accomplished in that day before thee.
Jeremiah 46:9 (Whole Chapter) Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
Ezekiel 30:9 (Whole Chapter) In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
Daniel 11:43 (Whole Chapter) But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Amos 9:7 (Whole Chapter) Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
Zephaniah 2:12 (Whole Chapter) Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword.
Acts 8:27 (Whole Chapter) And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
What about these examples from Genesis?
The descendants of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabteca. The descendants of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan..
Notice these places are not in Africa but in Arabia, and yet are designated as being descendants of Cush or 'Kushi'
Also..
Cush became the father of Nimrod, who was the first potentate on earth. He was a mighty hunter by the grace of the LORD; hence the saying, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter by the grace of the LORD."
Despite being called a son of Cush, most scholars agree Nimrod's origins lie in the Near-East and not in Africa. Scholars are still unsure exactly where in the region he comes from. Some say Assyria, while others say Sumer, still others say Elam in modern-day Iran (the Elamites were black too).
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I understand that there may have been Eastern Cushites just like the Natufians. However, they are not referred to as Ethiopians in the Bible and I fail to see how you correlate this.
I have read much of Herodotus work and do not remember seeing Eastern Ethiopians which probably refers to the Dravidians. The Dravidians are more than just dark skinned people, they are Black as I understand Black just like Andamans, Negritos, New Guineans, etc. It is more than just dark skin that makes them Black people.
Even though I concede the Greeks seem to refer to the Dravidians as Ethiopians (which they may actually have been as far as we know), I do not concede it is simply a matter of skin color and I certainly don't see how it relates to the scriptures.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: I understand that there may have been Eastern Cushites just like the Natufians. However, they are not referred to as Ethiopians in the Bible and I fail to see how you correlate this.
The actual term was cushi, not Cushites as in the a Nubian group. Also the Bible never made any mention of the Natufians!
quote:I have read much of Herodotus work and do not remember seeing Eastern Ethiopians which probably refers to the Dravidians. The Dravidians are more than just dark skinned people, they are Black as I understand Black just like Andamans, Negritos, New Guineans, etc. It is more than just dark skin that makes them Black people.
But that's what Ethiopians mean---black!!
quote:Even though I concede the Greeks seem to refer to the Dravidians as Ethiopians (which they may actually have been as far as we know), I do not concede it is simply a matter of skin color and I certainly don't see how it relates to the scriptures.
It relates to scripture perfectly in the fact that the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek, when Christianity first spread to Europe!
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posted
Cushi and Cushite is exactly the same thing.
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:
patronymically from 'Kuwsh' (3568); a Cushite, or descendant of Cush:--Cushi, Cushite, Ethiopian(-s).
The Torah, unlike the New Testament, is in Hebrew and not Greek. We do not need to translate from Hebrew to Greek and then to English. That is only necessary for the New Testament.
Cushi means Cushite.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Cushi and Cushite is exactly the same thing.
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:
patronymically from 'Kuwsh' (3568); a Cushite, or descendant of Cush:--Cushi, Cushite, Ethiopian(-s).
The words may have the same root meaning but differences could be made into the ways they are used. Cushi being a description of physical appearance, while Cushite being an ethnic or nation appearance i.e. Kushite people south of Egypt.
quote:The Torah, unlike the New Testament, is in Hebrew and not Greek. We do not need to translate from Hebrew to Greek and then to English. That is only necessary for the New Testament.
What about the Old Testament?! The Old Testament is essentially the Torah. And this was the one where the word 'ethiopian' is used in the Greek translation.
quote:Cushi means Cushite
Again, 'Cushi' means black while 'Cushite' is reference to a specific black people.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Cushi and Cushite is exactly the same thing.
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:
patronymically from 'Kuwsh' (3568); a Cushite, or descendant of Cush:--Cushi, Cushite, Ethiopian(-s).
The words may have the same root meaning but differences could be made into the ways they are used. Cushi being a description of physical appearance, while Cushite being an ethnic or nation appearance i.e. Kushite people south of Egypt.
quote:The Torah, unlike the New Testament, is in Hebrew and not Greek. We do not need to translate from Hebrew to Greek and then to English. That is only necessary for the New Testament.
What about the Old Testament?! The Old Testament is essentially the Torah. And this was the one where the word 'ethiopian' is used in the Greek translation.
quote:Cushi means Cushite
Again, 'Cushi' means black while 'Cushite' is reference to a specific black people.
And what do you have to support this conclusion? Especially when we consider that Cush is an actual person in Biblical context.
It gets even stranger to believe you considering these transalations of Cushi:
Note that Cushi is used in 1/2 the translations and Cushite is used in the rest.
2 Samuel 18:21
And Joab saith to Cushi, 'Go, declare to the king that which thou hast seen;' and Cushi boweth himself to Joab, and runneth. (YLT)
Then said Joab to Cushi, Go, tell the king what thou hast seen. And Cushi bowed himself to Joab, and ran. (WBS)
Then said Joab to Cushy, Go tell the king what thou hast seen. And Cushy bowed himself unto Joab, and ran. (KJV)
Then said Joab to Cushi, Go, tell the king what thou hast seen. And Cushi bowed himself to Joab, and ran. (WBS)
Then said Joab to the Cushite, "Go, tell the king what you have seen!" The Cushite bowed himself to Joab, and ran. (WEB)
Then said Joab to the Cushite, Go, tell the king what thou hast seen. And the Cushite bowed himself unto Joab, and ran. (ASV)
Then Joab said to the Cushite, Go and give the king word of what you have seen. And the Cushite, making a sign of respect to Joab, went off running. (BBE)
Then said Joab to the Cushite, Go, tell the king what thou hast seen. And the Cushite bowed himself to Joab, and ran. (DBY)
Then said Joab to Cushy, Go tell the king what thou hast seen. And Cushy bowed himself unto Joab, and ran. (KJV)
Then said Joab to the Cushite: 'Go tell the king what thou hast seen.' And the Cushite bowed down unto Joab, and ran. (JPS)
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posted
Again, there appears to be a difference in the way cushi and 'cushite' is used.
The Bible seems describes black people, and it describes specific nations of black people.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again, there appears to be a difference in the way cushi and 'cushite' is used.
The Bible seems describes black people, and it describes specific nations of black people.
Again, you haven't supported your position with any facts other than your word. There are plenty of translation references showing that Cushi means Cushite. Also, Hebrew was directly translated into English and thus the Greek sociological concept of who an Ethiopian is does not apply. Hebrews have a much more closer relationship with Cushites than would Greeks, however, the ancient Hebrews did indeed consider Southern Indians to be Cushites. However, I have never heard of the idea that the Midianites are Cushites. This is incorrect. The Bible clearly shows the Midianites to be a mixed people of both Semitic and Cushitic ancestry.
Consequently the East Cushites are likely not the Midianites.
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Again, you haven't supported your position with any facts other than your word. There are plenty of translation references showing that Cushi means Cushite.
Where? The scriptures as well as the Hebrew language itself makes it pretty clear: Cushi is descriptive of skin color while Cushite is descriptive of an actual people.
quote:Also, Hebrew was directly translated into English and thus the Greek sociological concept of who an Ethiopian is does not apply.
It does apply if Greek is to be used as the medium of translation.
quote:Hebrews have a much more closer relationship with Cushites than would Greeks, however, the ancient Hebrews did indeed consider Southern Indians to be Cushites.
So there you go!
quote:However, I have never heard of the idea that the Midianites are Cushites. This is incorrect.
I never said that they were, only that Moses' wife was described as such.
quote:The Bible clearly shows the Midianites to be a mixed people of both Semitic and Cushitic ancestry.
Where and in what passage?? Last time I checked Cushitic speaking peoples were confined mostly to the Horn and southern Egypt, not to the Levant.
quote:Consequently the East Cushites are likely not the Midianites.
Where is the evidence to show this?
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posted
Djehuti, you also are making another common error. The linguistic classification of Cushic has little to do with the Cushite or Cushi of the Hebrew scriptures. Don't confuse the Cushic branch of Afro-Asiatic with the ancient Cushites or people described as Cushi in the bible.
You had two different Cushites:the ones in the east and the ones south of Egypt.
The chracter in question,Zipporah, is not a African Cushite but actually a Midianite. Midan is located around modern Jordan.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Djehuti, you also are making another common error. The linguistic classification of Cushic has little to do with the Cushite or Cushi of the Hebrew scriptures. Don't confuse the Cushic branch of Afro-Asiatic with the ancient Cushites or people described as Cushi in the bible.
You had two different Cushites:the ones in the east and the ones south of Egypt.
The chracter in question,Zipporah, is not a African Cushite but actually a Midianite. Midan is located around modern Jordan.
But that was exactly what I was trying to explain to Osirion! Cushi is a description of skin color while 'Cushitic' is a linguistic term.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way Kenndo, was that your first time seeing that program Ramses: Wrath of God or Man?
What do you think?
Also, does the program offer any info on the actress who played Nefertari?
I first thought she was Somali because of the way she looked, and that folks here recommended to Borg, one of the Discovery producers who used to post here, to cast more African looking actors. But I think Borg said she was Moroccan.
yes,that was my first time watching it. I did look at some of the casting but for some reason i did not see her name.
Now for the african looking actors,yes they did look black,but there was one thing or two,they were only few african looking actors in that show,but the excuse the film makers could say is that ramses and his family lived in lower egypt and there were less looking black folks there than middle or upper egypt or some other excuse.it's getting tiresome but overall i think the show was okay. I wish the clothing was more better done on average like the movie that came out called moses in 1996.
The buildings shown in the movie moses was not done as well but in the ramses film it was done better on average,but of course in the moses movie the actors playing the royal family was not correct racially speaking and i mean the king(rameses)and his first son and main queen but it was a good movie.
Anybody have any thoughs on the ramses film or the moses movie that came out in 1996?
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quote:Originally posted by ausar: Djehuti, you also are making another common error. The linguistic classification of Cushic has little to do with the Cushite or Cushi of the Hebrew scriptures. Don't confuse the Cushic branch of Afro-Asiatic with the ancient Cushites or people described as Cushi in the bible.
You had two different Cushites:the ones in the east and the ones south of Egypt.
The chracter in question,Zipporah, is not a African Cushite but actually a Midianite. Midan is located around modern Jordan.
But that was exactly what I was trying to explain to Osirion! Cushi is a description of skin color while 'Cushitic' is a linguistic term.
I have presented several translations of Hebrew. None of them seem to agree with you. Cushi appears to mean Cushite in every modern scriptural translation.
Midianites are never described as Cushi.
Here is a description of someone considered to be Black (just in skin color). Notice the person is not referred to as a Cushi:
Songs of Solomon:
5I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.
6Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
Midianites would never be called Cushi because they are descended from Abraham:
1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.
5And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
Also, Moses had several wives. Do we really know if the Ethiopian woman was related to any of the Midianites? Also, Jethro was a Midianite priest but that didn't mean he himself was a Midianite.
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posted
The "Exodus" story is entirely a religious metaphor from beginning to end, including the fabled Moses and Aaron. It is an allegorical tale describing the difficulties that the initiates into the Jewish religion have to go through. "Coming out of Egypt" and "out of bondage" is a basic metaphor meaning the hylic body, the ego of man or the basic desires of the flesh. In later "Christian" times the Egypt/body metaphor is replaced with tomb meaning body or hylic or psychic state of the individual.
There is not one tissue of evidence to the contrary. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: M. F. Hammer, A. J. Redd, et al. (2000) Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes . Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 97, Issue 12, 6769-6774, June 6, 2000
Hammer et al. (2000) published an exploratory paper with this conclusion "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
Again, we know J is Middle Eastern, but it's very fool-hardy and may I say a little foolish in describing the whole clade as being 'Jewish'.
Mind you there are many peoples in the Middle East today who carry J, even J2 but would probably kill anyone who called them 'Jews'!!
Seriously, your 'Hebrew-centrism' is getting the better of you! You are beginning to sound like Kenndo in his rants about Nubia or worse yet, like Lion or Mr. Winters in their rants about black Africans around the world!!
posted
For those who haven't the time to scroll through this thread to read my previous posts or who think he who has the last word is in fact correct, I've shown that KWSHY can mean either a citizen of Kush or a a person of any nation or ethny as dark as a person from Kush (the modern northern Sudan region).
Unlike others' proposals, this assessment is not my personal opinion but is based on a plethora of authoritative Jewish sources; over 1600 years of exegesis on the TN"K (Hebrew Scriptures) by all the rabbinical commentators and Jewish midrash material.
There's no objective historical evidence of the Exodus. However, there are two accounts written by Egyptian authors. See Two Egyptians seem to agree on an Exodus and my earlier posts in this thread for "Hebrew enslavement."
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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You have already been told that metalurgy, specifically copper was already used by the Egyptians since the beginning of the dynastic age. Why are you still talking about Hyksos introducing copper weapons?! 
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