posted
While I support the Imazighen struggle for freedom, self-determination, identity, and recognition I don't cotton to NorthAfricentrism or any other form of ethnocentrism. To that effect let's have another go at understanding the region of North Africa generally designated as the Maghreb and the people there.
What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
Who are the Maghribis? Which populations have in the past on up to now have inhabited the Maghreb?
This thread will thoroughly scour these topics using an interdisciplinary approach examining human paleontology, physical anthropology, genetics, archaeology, linquistics, history, and related fields to present known facts divorced from liberation struggle ideologies and unscientific folklore.
Respectful of the African people now struggling in the region, the terms Tamazgha and Imazighen, for the land and its current population, will be used when appropriate.
I can only suggest and hope the tone of these discussions, which at times will necessarily be controversial and spirited, can nonetheless be conducted generously and politely by its participants adamant in their conflicting points of view.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree that it's a challenge to respect the struggle of the Berber for their own identity - mirroring the struggle of other Africans, while at the same time 'putting paid' to Berber ethnic mythologies, which piggy-back onto Eurocentrism.
I suggest to advocates of this brand of Berber-centrism that they consider carefully the faulty nature of their thesis.
* On the one hand they seek the broadest possible definition of Berber, in order to link peoples like the Kabyle to everyone from the Siwa Oasis Libyans called Tehennu, to the Moors.
* On the other hand they seek and ethnically exclusionary definition of Berber, in which the Berber are white, or k-zoid, and in which Black Berber are marginalised or made illigitimate.
This is a false dichotomy, and moreover, it's easy to discredit. It is poor strategy and doomed to failure.
Berber is best viewed as and African language group, spoken by ethnically diverse people.
These people and their languages originate in the East African Neolithic, and spread to NorthWest Africa. Many of their most notable traditions such as the Tifinagh Berber script, often written without vowels much like mdw.ntr, are best represented by the Touareg.
This Berber expansion was male biased - no different than many other migrations - including Bantu, and various Semitic [Lemba, Arab, etc..] expansions, only - it was more extreme because it expansed great tracks of sahara dessert.
Because of this the female ancestry of the Berber ranges from predominently East African - in East Africa, to substantially West African in parts of the Western Sahel, to predominently European on the North West African coast.
The Berber physical appearance varies accordingly - and *naturally*.
In order for people like the Kabyles to claim and affinity with people like the Tehennu and Touareg, they *must* embrace, and not deny, the multi-ethnic historical reality of Berber speaking peoples.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
When, where, and under what circumstances do each of these ethnics enter the historical scene?
THHNW show up as early as the Vth Dynasty on the reliefs of Neuserre and Sahure who defeated them. In the VIth Dynasty Harkhuf a royal merchant for Pepy II notes a potential war between the NHHSW of Yam and the TMHHW. Mentuhotep of Dynasty XI mentions defeating the Rebu/Libu.
By the XVIII Dynasty we hear of the Imukehek and Ekbet in the times of Amenhotep I and Thutmose I. Then the XIXth and XXth Dynasties.
Ramses II found the THHNW in alliance with the Sherden one the HWA NBW peoples from outside of Africa. But how did this alliance form and why were North Africans and north Mediterraneans in relationship?
West of the THHNW the Libu formed a powerful coalition with the Ekwesh, Teresh, Luka, Sherden, and Shekelesh, who all are peoples from north of the Mediterranean coast of Africa. This horde forced the THHNW to join them as they stood between Libu and Egypt the target of their plan of conquest. Why did they choose to march east on Egypt instead of going west toward the Maghreb if the HWA NBW were only ejected migrants seeking asylum? This invasion force also sought out the goodwill of the Hittites. Merneptah proved to be up to the challenge and utterly routed the entire force.
Then not long afterward the Meshwesh from even further west than the Libu in cahoots with another set of northerners Thekel, Peleset, Denyen, Weshesh and the older set of northern allies encroached on Egyptian territories. The North African Seped or Esbet join in the coalition. Ramses III put them down, branding and enslaving many to incorporate them into the military or into agricultural service.
It should be noted that the northerners came with their women and children. Outside of the war effort, how many northern peoples in search of a new home avoided Libu and Meshwesh intrigues to instead peacefully settle westward of the aggression? Did such settlement cause southern and eastern movement of the earlier population?
Not having learned their lesson well, more North Africans, the Esbet, Shai or Shaitep, Beken, Keykesh, and Hes, along with the Meshwesh mount another attack to occupy Egypt which again fails and leads to their occupying military and agricultural posts after being branded.
With the Meshwesh we have the first naming apparently linguisticly related to Tamazight and the Amazigh identity. Amazigh identity seems to begin with these Meshwesh and not the THHNW.
Is there any ethnic or linguistic significance to all these esh name endings shared by both the North Africans and north Mediterraneans?
As the Meshwesh piece by piece begin to peacefully settle in the Delta during the weak XXIst Dynasty they attain to authoritative positions until finally a Meshwesh assumes pharoahship inaugurating the XXIInd Dynasty. The beginning of the reign of Shosenq I is the year 1 in the Amazigh calendar commemorated yearly by Imazighen activists at Yenneyar celebrations everywhere theres an Amazigh community.
quote:Originally posted by Wally on 04 December 2004 01:29 PM:
According to the ancients, the portion of Africa to the west of Egypt was called Libya but according to the Moudu ro en Kemet, the region to the west of Kemet would be called Khasut Amenti ("foreign territories in the west"), and like "Nubia" to the south, it was only referred to vis-a-vis the tribes or peoples in that region. Here is the chronology of Kemetian names for what the ancients referred to as "Libya" :
1) predynastic;early dynastic period (2920-2575bc);also in the Book of the Dead, one of the oldest Kemetian texts. Tehenu: ("The 'blue' people") These people were portrayed by the Kemetian as being very similar to themselves, and probably were closely related. Tehen: dazzling;sparkling; to dye something blue; faience or a glazed blue earthenware that was often used for amulets and some vessels.
In my opinion, these were the ancestors of the present day Taureg people, who even today some of them are referred to as the blue people because some wear fabrics dyed by a process which involves pounding indigo powder into the cloth with a stone. So, if you were to use the Kemetian language to describe these Taureg people you would call them Tehenu...
2) 12th Dynasty onwards... While the Tehenu were still present and also used, we had an addition: Tamhu: "The Red people" This was an ethnic term based upon Kemetian ethnographic classifications (IE, *"the mural of the races") to indicate a white race of people. These were the blue-eyed 'Berbers' and were to become the favorites of modern Egyptology, as their presence allowed the creation of an erroneous association with the civilization of Kemet, even though their existence was only acknowledge during the 12th Kemetian dynasty...
3) 20th Dynasty M'shawaasha: (?; "meshwesh") This was a Libyan people who appear to be self-named, as there doesn't appear to be a Kemetian correspondence (at least I couldn't find any). We do have the name of one of their kings; M'shaken.
4) Indeterminate Rebu/Lebu: I couldn't find any direct correspondence with "Reb" or "Leb" but we can perhaps find help from Diop on this one; Diop informs us that there are a people living in Senegal called the Lebou and whose name means "fishermen or people who live by the sea." So what do we have in Kemetian?
"r" or "l" is a preposition meaning for example - to;against;at "bo" in Kemetian and in Coptic means "canal" or "stream" "l_bo" means "at the stream" "l_bou" means "those at the stream"
Thus it is accurate to state that Lebou in the Kemetian language would mean and be consistent with "people who live by the sea." Would the Lebu then be tribes living along the coast of northern Africa? I think so...
TBC...
(* it is incorrect to refer to this ethnographic document as a "table of nations" for no other reason but the simple and obvious fact that there were a lot more than four nations in that day!)
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri on 05 December 2004 04:39 PM:
In another thread Wally gives the alternate meaning of HHN in the name of the THHNW as brilliant. This is just as valid if not more valid than the meaning olive. As far as it relates to blue and the Blue Men of more than 2500 years later, that remains a worthy speculation. Contrary to genetic indicators the Tuareg themselves claim to come from the far Atlantic Maghreb in an exodus under Queen Tin Hanan.
Wally has shown that some of the mdw ntr names of Eastern Libyan tribes are not from the Egyptian language and so are probably derived from Tamazight linguistic roots. This again brings up the question of the coastals relationship to their HWA NBW allies some of whom also have esh in the endings of their tribal names.
Eastern Libyans with esh names:
* the Meshwesh nation * the Keykesh tribe
Sea Peoples with esh names:
* Ekwesh * Teresh * Shekelesh * Weshesh
Of particular notice are the Meshwesh nation and Weshesh HWA NBW tribe especially when we will later note Graeco Roman authors relating origins of some Eastern Libyan tribes as coming from the Aegean and the northern Middle East.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Numidicus: I'm an Amazigh. I send you some useful links (I didn't read all of them): http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita_1990_northern_africa_1_.pdf http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/further_study_keita.pdf http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlubell/Ency_Maghreb.pdf http://www.amazighworld.org/ http://www.emazighen.com/article.php3?id_article=68 http://www.csupomona.edu/~mibrahim/hst.329/NA.antiquity.html http://www.startkabel.nl/k/numidia/ If you have no time to read them, I think this is the conclusion: the origin of the Berbers is unclear, the western Berbers were light skinned, whereas the eastern Berbers tended to be dark skinned. They have more than one ancestor. The early Berbers were known as the Libyans to the Egyptians and the Greeks. The Romans tended to call them Numidians and Moors. The Arabs called them "Barbars" (where the word Berber is derived form (the Arabs maybe adapted it from the Romans who called several peoples as barbarians)). The light Berbers and the dark Berbers seem to be indigenous to North Africa: the light Berbers are registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Libou (where the word Libyan is derived form) + tamahou). They are also found in the central Sahara (depictions on the rocks). The dark people are also registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Tehenu), and from what I read they are indications that the Garamantes where dark. The modern Berbers are generally browns. The blondish Berbers are found in several Berber groups especially among the Riffians and Kabyles (there are also many red haired and blondish Berbers among the Berbers of the atlas). Gnawa and Haratins are not of Berber origin, as far as I’m aware.
posted
We tried discussing things with Numidicus on the now ersatz theNileValley forum. Typical of a Riffian to embrace blondes and redheads as trulye Berber while denying Haritin that status.
This is only based on a priori racial proclivities favoring whiteness.
How in the hell can Haritin with North African DNA traits not be Berber while Riffians, Kabyles, and certain Atlas populations with European DNA traits are Berber? Aren't they all Berber speakers?
When a certain ruler was composing for himself a non-Berber black slave army and went recruiting Haritin for it, it caused an uproar of protest from all Berbers because it was biased to try to make non-Berber Gnawa out of Berber Haritin.
But nowadays with Amazigh nationalism and its "Berbers are whites of varying intensity" stance the Haritin along with the THHNW are supposed to get the white-out?
quote:Originally posted by SidiRom: A post from another forum:
quote:Originally posted by Numidicus: I'm an Amazigh. . . . . I think this is the conclusion: the origin of the Berbers is unclear, the western Berbers were light skinned, whereas the eastern Berbers tended to be dark skinned. They have more than one ancestor. ... The light Berbers and the dark Berbers seem to be indigenous to North Africa: the light Berbers are registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Libou (where the word Libyan is derived form) + tamahou). They are also found in the central Sahara (depictions on the rocks). The dark people are also registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Tehenu), and from what I read they are indications that the Garamantes where dark. The modern Berbers are generally browns. The blondish Berbers are found in several Berber groups especially among the Riffians and Kabyles (there are also many red haired and blondish Berbers among the Berbers of the atlas). Gnawa and Haratins are not of Berber origin, as far as I’m aware.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
alTakruri, do you have that quote about the Haratin during the Middle Ages? I think its by Al-Idrisi or some other Arabic writer.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
Thought Writes:
You have created your own definition for a term. This is NOT the standard definition of the Maghreb.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
No I don't have the quote. It was part of a private correspondance with an Amazigh activist:
quote: The matter of the Harratin has always been subject to controversy. While they were seen for a long time as late comers to the area, some of the most recent findings are suggesting the opposite. The "Blackness" of the Haratin has never been in contention. Even in early history of Morocco, the fact that a deputy of the Egyptian General began to enlist them as soldiers of an all Black Army created a huge debate among the Moroccans, who did not consider them of the same "social category" as the Sudanese, and protest arose because they were "free human beings" and not of the "slave" category susceptible to be rounded up for this Corps of Black slave-soldiers. It created a great stir among "Berbers."
This was a precision to something the Amazigh activist had earlier wrote on a guarded forum:
quote: Imazighen (Berbers) ... are related by language to the Tuaregs of the Sahara and sub-Sahara [.] Even the Black Harratine people of the northern Sahara have recently yielded DNA which makes them closer to Berbers of North Africa than to other neighboouring Black groups. This parentage is also verifiable through language.
And this is basically true. The Haratine are a social group of freed slaves. Since those slaves were not all of one homogeneous ethnicity, the freed slaves marrying among each other created a new ethnicity. The bulk of this new ethnic group, "the One Fifth-ers", were the indigenous inhabitants of the Saharan Oases. Another Amazigh activist chided me for leaving out the former "owners" as part of the mix, which is correct because there was sex between the male "owners" and the enslaved females as well as the enslaved males with the "owners'" wives.
When I wrote to this same Amazigh activist that I felt there was an ongoing NorthAfricentrist attempt to remove blacks from Tamazgha history as either an ancient population absorbed into the stock of MESHWESH originating Imazighen or as a minority Imazighen subtype the reply was:
quote: I have asked before what ever happened to the black population of the area. In the literature, they are said to have been pushed south, but I maintain that inter-marriage or inter-breeding did occur. Now if DNA studies show that the black and white population in the north are related, I don't see why this is a problem. ...DNA studies are the most scientific proof we have, if it was conducted in an objective fashion. But I would like to see if the Amazigh also showed any non-Berber Haratine DNA.
So you see there is a subconscious hesitancy to unequivocally classify Haritin as truly Amazigh by Amazigh activist who themselves often enough have an Iberian, Italian, or French mommy. The Haritin are 100% African yet these hybrid Africans who think of themselves as truly Amazigh doubt the Haritin Amazighity underneath it all. An amazing example of double think!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
If true, certainly less so than making Nigeria into a North African country.
quote: A summit meeting of North African Heads of State, held in Morocco in February 1989, concluded a treaty proclaiming the Union du Maghreb arabe, comprising Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia.
What do you know about the Semitic terms ma`arib, mushreq, and mizrahh?
quote:Originally posted by Thought2:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
Thought Writes:
You have created your own definition for a term. This is NOT the standard definition of the Maghreb.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If true, certainly less so than making Nigeria a North African country.
Thought Writes:
Why less so? Please be specific.
Nigeria is certainly in the northern half of Africa and hence north African. The Maghreb has a much more specific definition that EXCLUDES the Nubian Desert.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What do you know about the Semitic terms ma`arib, mushreq, and mizrahh?
Thought Writes:
I know little about these terms. But what relevence do these terms have to the term Maghreb?
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What relevency? To show you don't have any idea of what maghreb means.
Thought Writes:
The POINT is there is NO evidence that the Ancient Egyptians were in contact with the people of coastal NW Africa (the Maghreb). Genetically the people of NE Africa (Chad, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, etc) have very different profiles from the people of the Maghreb (a different region).
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I don't want to see this thread sidetracked, please create a seperate thread for debate on Nigeria as a North African country,
Thought Writes:
Are you sick? You were the one who brought Nigeria up in this thread to begin with.....
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If true, certainly less so than making Nigeria into a North African country.
This is unnecessary nastiness, a personal attack. Please refrain from commenting on me and comment on the topic, thank you.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
This is unnecessary nastiness, a personal attack. Please refrain from commenting on me and comment on the topic, thank you.
Thought Writes:
Ok....
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What relevency? To show you don't have any idea of what maghreb means.
Thought Writes:
The POINT is there is NO evidence that the Ancient Egyptians were in contact with the people of coastal NW Africa (the Maghreb). Genetically the people of NE Africa (Chad, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, etc) have very different profiles from the people of the Maghreb (a different region).
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Maghreb is a geographic entity not a genetic one.
The POINT is that KM.t was attacked by a coalition of peoples under MESHWESH suzereignty who most likely came from the Gulf of Sidra region and maybe even from as further west as Algeria.
While KM.t was not in contact with people farther away then either the western delta or the Siwa oasis, people from Tripolitania contacted KM.t and did so very violently.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2: The POINT is there is NO evidence that the Ancient Egyptians were in contact with the people of coastal NW Africa (the Maghreb). Genetically the people of NE Africa (Chad, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, etc) have very different profiles from the people of the Maghreb (a different region).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Maghreb is a geographic entity not a genetic one.
Thought Writes:
Clearly the Maghreb is a geographic entity. But the CONTEXT of our discussion about the Maghreb is in relation to people FROM the Maghreb. The genetic evidence does NOT support a close genetic affinity between these two regions. Hence there is little biological evidence for incursions from the Maghreb into dynastic Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The POINT is that KM.t was attacked by a coalition of peoples.....maybe even from as further west as Algeria.
Thought Writes:
Key word: MAYBE. You have provided little substantive evidence for populations flowing in from the Maghreb. In fact, please present archaeological evidence that substantiates a population sizable enough in this region, during the period in question to invade Egypt? This region was SPARSLY populated prior to ~2,000 ky.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The context of this discussion is as I laid out in the initial post of this thread.
quote: What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
Who are the Maghribis? Which populations have in the past on up to now have inhabited the Maghreb?
According to Herodotus (2.17, 2.32, 4.168, 4.191, 4.196) Libya began west of the Nile running on to the Atlantic Ocean. Aethiopia lay south of Libya beginning where people were predominantly blacker skinned and wooly haired.
He ethnogeographically lists the 5th century BCE Imazighen from east to west both on the coast and a bit inland. Scylax, c. 320 BCE follows suit as do Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Pliny (1st century CE), Ptolemy, and Corippus.
The Arab authors, who introduced the term Maghreb, starting with alMaqrizi (640 CE) on up to today -- again see The Union of the Arab Maghreb -- do the same.
Who should know better than they?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: According to Herodotus (2.17, 2.32, 4.168, 4.191, 4.196) Libya began west of the Nile running on to the Atlantic Ocean.
Thought Writes:
Two Points:
1) We are discussing the Maghreb, not the ancient Greek referenced region of Libya.
2) Herodotus was seperated from the so-called "Libyan Invasion" by over 1,000 years!!!!
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Arab authors, who introduced the term Maghreb, starting with alMaqrizi (640 CE) on up to today -- again see The Union of the Arab Maghreb -- do the same.
Who should know better than they?
Thought Writes:
Who should know WHAT better than whom? Your statement above is an incomplete sentence and incomprehensible.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I started this thread. You don't dictate the parameters. I have already spelled them out.
This discussion includes all known populations from the late pleistocene up to the current holocene.
Your limitations only narrow the scope to fit your peculiar distracting argument, which I will no longer entertain.
quote:Originally posted by Thought2:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: According to Herodotus (2.17, 2.32, 4.168, 4.191, 4.196) Libya began west of the Nile running on to the Atlantic Ocean.
Thought Writes:
Two Points:
1) We are discussing the Maghreb, not the ancient Greek referenced region of Libya.
2) Herodotus was seperated from the so-called "Libyan Invasion" by over 1,000 years!!!!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I started this thread. You don't dictate the parameters. I have already spelled them out.
Thought Writes:
You can spell whatever you want out. But the fact remains, there is little evidence that the ancient "Libyans" came from NW Africa/the Maghreb.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
Who are the Maghribis? Which populations have in the past on up to now have inhabited the Maghreb?
Thought Writes:
The essence of the problem is that you are defining people with very distinct histories and relationships as one cultural/biological (?) entity. The people of NW Africa and NE Africa have divergent linguistic, archaeological and genetic trajectories. The people of these regions seem to be linked FIRST by an expansion of Berber speaking people from the Western Desert ~2,000 ky. Then by Arab incursions. There is little evidence for contact between the Western Desert (Libyan Desert) and the Maghreb prior to this era.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well before the currently spoken Afrisan languages existed humans lived in the Maghreb
Below is a very brief summary of L. Cabot Briggs The Living Races of the Sahara Desert Cambridge: Peabody Museum, 1958 pp. 8-19 Note that his outdated morphological terminologies delineate slight taxonomic differences of face, head, and stature but are all specifically African phenotypes.
The ATERIAN is the first industry of modern humans in N Africa (meaning what now is Tripolitanian Libya, Tunisia, Algeria above the Sahara, and Morocco). It dates to between 35-12 thousand years ago (kya). In Libya it's called DABBAN.
PaleaMediterraneans of MOUILLIAN industry are next and were established before 10kya.
AfricanMediterraneans introduced CAPSIAN industry maybe 8kya. They were supposed to be accompanied or soon followed by African Alpines who had no seperate industry of their own. The African Mediterraneans were first inland, away from the PalaeMediterraneans but did move to the coasts of Algeria where their industry is called ORANIAN.
Although all three were similar to east Mediterranean and east African types of humanity, they had their own physical peculiarites distinguishing them from north Mediterranean peoples, notably prognathism and broad nasal apperatures. (How different were they from the Natufians?)
These three indigenous African "stocks" were supposed to have all married with each other to produce the Mechta al Arbi and Afalou types who were preponderantly African Mediterranean and made futher advances of CAPSIAN industry incorporating techniques from another people.
Those others were Saharo-Sudanese of NEOLITHIC SAHARAN industries very similar to the so-called KHARTOUM MESOLITHIC (which obviously had characteristics of neolithic rather than mesolithic technology). The neolithic Saharo-Sudanese enter the picture around 6kya.
So again, how do we tie these contributors to the N African human population in with the genetic data and linguistic info we have today?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Genetic conclusion are drawn from living populations. High frequency African specific lineage relevant DNA in TaMazgha is mtDNAU6 and NRYE3b-M35.
U6a has a coalescence ranging between 41-14kya per HVSI sequences. It has a west to east expansion making it a strong candidate for an Aterian female base.
U6a1 (19-7.5kya) with an east to west expansion is at the tail end of the Aterian, all throughout the Mouillian, and most likely signals the Capsian which arose first in East Africa though named after Gafsa, the site in North Africa were archaeologist first dug up relics of the industry. This is a time period of proto-Afrisan and proto-NiloSaharan. A language ancestral to both (namely proto-Wider Area Of Northern Affinity) may have been carried from east to north Africa.
The other U6 subgroups (U6b, U6c, and U6b1) occur almost exclusively in western populations and by HVSI coalescence dating would appear during all the pleistocene industries. The exception being U6b1 which is strictly holocene while U6c's coalescence covers both the late pleistocene and early holocene. On their return to the U6a birthplace, U6a1 would encounter the already in place older U6b and U6c indigenous to that region.
E3b-M35 has a coalescence ranging between 46-27kya per average squared difference. It probably originated in eastern Africa. Highest frequencies are in the "Khoisan" and Oromo. It could be the male base of the Aterian that was later absorbed and displaced.
E3b1-M78 (33-25kya), derived from E3b-M35, also most likely arose in eastern Africa and fits the Aterian time frame. By late expansion, it may also signal the Mouillian which is known to be related to the Halfan industry in the Nile Valley. It has high frequencies in Ethiopia, Sudan, and Kenya.
E3b2-M81 (11-6kya), also an E3b-M35 derivative, likewise first appeared in eastern Africa. It's more in line with the Capsian and Neolithic Saharan. The first Wider Area of Northern Affinity languages was at this particularly proto-NiloSaharan. Afrisan had begun splitting so that by the lower limit proto-Tamazight was born. Certain languages in the Wider Area of Southern Affinity may have started in the Sahara along with languages not truly fitting any strict classification system. This subclade is considered to be the Amazigh marker.
NEOLITHIC SAHARAN meld of the above as above as above Saharo-Sudanese *E3b-M81*
.
The Aterian was highly concentrated in the Atlas but had an outreach that included the Sahara and Libya. Its practioners may've resembled "Khoisan". Archaeological finds show the Mouillian "PaleaMediterraneans" occupied the littoral from Libya to Morocco. Oranian finds are also scattered over this same whole area. Capsian "AfricanMediterranean" relics are all inland away from the coast. The Neolithic Sahara industry of the Saharo-Sudanese replaced the earlier industry but not the morphologies. Apparently only a few pioneer Saharo-Sudanese ventured toward the coast introducing technologies similar to the so-called Khartoum "Mesolithic". The neolithic transfer was moreso cultural than demic. All of these Maghrebi industries and NRY haplogroups show links with the Nile Valley. The mtDNA haplogroups mostly suggest local Maghreb al Aqsa continuities.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Although all three were similar to east Mediterranean and east African types of humanity, they had their own physical peculiarites distinguishing them from north Mediterranean peoples, notably prognathism and broad nasal apperatures. (How different were they from the Natufians?)
Thought Writes:
According to Irish these Paleolithic N. African samples and the Natufian samples were indeed different.
Thought Posts:
Irish JD. The Iberomaurusian enigma: north African progenitor or dead end? J Hum Evol. 2000 Oct;39(4):393-410.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: So again, how do we tie these contributors to the N African human population in with the genetic data and linguistic info we have today?
Thought Writes:
There is genetic evidence for the maternal lineage U6 and the paternal lineages A and E1 dating back to Upper Paleolithic NW Africa.
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Genetic conclusion are drawn from living populations.
Thought Writes:
This is correct, but what is your point?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: E3b-M35 has a coalescence ranging between 46-27kya per average squared difference. It probably originated in eastern Africa. Highest frequencies are in the "Khoisan" and Oromo. It could be the male base of the Aterian that was later absorbed and displaced.
Thought Writes:
"Could be", but like your "theory" on the NW African/Maghreb origins to the ancient Libyans, there is NO substantive evidence nor any downstream lineages to support this theory.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: E3b1-M78 (33-25kya), derived from E3b-M35, also most likely arose in eastern Africa and fits the Aterian time frame. By late expansion, it may also signal the Mouillian which is known to be related to the Halfan industry in the Nile Valley. It has high frequencies in Ethiopia, Sudan, and Kenya.
E3b2-M81 (11-6kya), also an E3b-M35 derivative, likewise first appeared in eastern Africa. It's more in line with the Capsian and Neolithic Saharan. The first Wider Area of Northern Affinity languages was at this particularly proto-NiloSaharan. Afrisan had begun splitting so that by the lower limit proto-Tamazight was born. Certain languages in the Wider Area of Southern Affinity may have started in the Sahara along with languages not truly fitting any strict classification system. This subclade is considered to be the Amazigh marker.
The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional Corridors of Human Migrations J. R. Luis et al. The American Journal of Human Genetics, volume 74 (2004), pages 532–544
"The present-day Egyptian E3b-M35 distribution most likely results from a juxtaposition of various demic episodes. Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages. These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa. The extant North African and Middle Eastern distribution (Underhill et al. 2001b; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study) of these lineages suggests that both routes are associated with the dissemination of E3b1-M78. However, the E3b3-M123 chromosomes may have spread predominantly toward the east, whereas E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco (33% and 69% in Moroccan Arabs and Moroccan Berbers, respectively [Cruciani et al. 2002]), dispersed mainly to the west. This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa ∼2 ky ago (Cruciani et al. 2002). The considerably older linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario. The Turkish collection displays a near absence of E3b2-M81 (1 in 523 males) but displays polymorphic levels of the other two M35 derivatives (5.5% for E3b3-M123 and 5% for E3b1-M78 [Cinnioğlu et al. 2004]). This M35 profile, combined with the substantially older BATWING expansion times of the corresponding Egyptian lineages (E3b1-M78: 7.8 ky in Egypt vs. 4.8 ky in Turkey [Cinnioğlu et al. 2004]; E3b3-M123: 10.8 ky in Egypt vs. 3.7 ky in Turkey [Cinnioğlu et al. 2004]), is highly consistent with a northbound migration through the Levantine corridor reflected in M35 males as far north as Turkey."
Posts: 2720 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember this thread, and it was a very good and interesting one.
By the way, I don't know how much this helps the issue but the earliest Greek references to Libya (west of Egypt) speak of the 'Gorgon Amazons'. There are 2 main groups of Amazons in Greek legend-- the Gorgon Amazons of Libya and the Themiscyran Amazons of Asia Minor with the former being older by several millenia before the latter appeared. In Greek legend the Gorgon (Terrible) Amazons lived to the west of Egypt. Their nation was ruled by a powerful queen and they were allies of the Egyptians against the people of Atlantis. Now assuming that 'Atlantis' was based on a maritime civilization located somewhere in the Mediterranean, what are we to make of these people? The idea of a nation ruled by a queen corresponds to the matriarchal societies of many Berber groups, and there are rock paintings of females armed with bows and arrows.
Also, I have always wondered about the relationship between North Africans and North Mediterraneans who both had '-esh' to their names. I know that names that ended in vowels follwed by -sh was was common in Semitic languages in Western Asia perhaps due to Asiatic influence, and I read that the scholar Gordon Childe proposed that these north Mediterraneans were probably peoples who adopted the Berber languages. Is this true? From archaeology and anthropology as well as genetics we have evidence that the North African neolithic spilled out into Southwest Europe (Iberia) just as it did into the Levant and Southeast Europe. And heck, we have white Berber speakers in North Africa!
Any comments to this, Takruri or anyone else?
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
In general, the traditions of African warrior queens is indeed quite ancient all over Africa. However, this tradition is lost to us in modern histories, especially those traditions from the more ancient periods, for various reasons. There were female warrior dieties in Egypt. There were the female hunters depicted in the rock art of the Sahara. There were the Warrior Queens of Kush, Kerma and Meroe.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember reading somewhere that "esh" was a ethnonym plural. I think it makes sense since it is found among other people's name always have a grammatical plural marker known in Egyptian.
alTakruri, what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Don't know if they already did or not, but I think that an appropriate way to check it would be to reconstruct the early Berber roots and try to transphonologize them in regard to Egyptian restrictions.
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In general, the traditions of African warrior queens is indeed quite ancient all over Africa. However, this tradition is lost to us in modern histories, especially those traditions from the more ancient periods, for various reasons. There were female warrior dieties in Egypt. There were the female hunters depicted in the rock art of the Sahara. There were the Warrior Queens of Kush, Kerma and Meroe.
Yes but my reference dealt specifically with ancient Libyans and whatever relation they had with the Berber people as whole, let alone the Maghreb.
Takruri or anyone else, what is your take on these ancient references and their relation to modern Berbers?
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: I remember reading somewhere that "esh" was a ethnonym plural. I think it makes sense since it is found among other people's name always have a grammatical plural marker known in Egyptian.
alTakruri, what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Don't know if they already did or not, but I think that an appropriate way to check it would be to reconstruct the early Berber roots and try to transphonologize them in regard to Egyptian restrictions.
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
These are some good points and questions. What meaning did the 'esh' have in ancient Berber and in modern Berber?
Also, 'esh' in many north Semitic languages means 'man'. Does it also indicate a similar meaning for these ancient ethnonyms??
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I remember this thread, and it was a very good and interesting one. I read that the scholar Gordon Childe proposed that these north Mediterraneans were probably peoples who adopted the Berber languages. Is this true? From archaeology and anthropology as well as genetics we have evidence that the North African neolithic spilled out into Southwest Europe (Iberia) just as it did into the Levant and Southeast Europe. And heck, we have white Berber speakers in North Africa!
Any comments to this, Takruri or anyone else?
From my knowledge of Iberian Muslim history, it is known and reported that Christians were 'deported' to North Africa in various waves, or they voluntarily left to form new communites and as a result, they blended in with the natives (of North Africa) as it were. They were Muslims, who intermarried with various tribal groups in Spain (Celtic, Visigoths, Slavs, etc) so despite being Muslim, they also were forced to leave when different Muslim ideologies confronted them. Many were no different from Spaniards but as they had a Muslim background, they were forced back to the North Africa of their grandparents and so they would naturally gravitate to areas reminiscent of their homeland (the Atlas mountains)! Other areas of Southern Europe experienced the same conditions with the ebb and flow of different dynasties.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Graves' The Greek Myths is an excellent source for this kind of thing. Diop (can't recall which work) posits the Amazons as 'non-african' women -- his bias against Berbers -- who found respect for females among Africans. He makes good points, based on cultural analysis, for why Amazons aren't native to Africa.
Truth to tell, I wonder if the metal age Imazighen were the product of the indigenous North African males taking Sea Peoples' women and gelding or otherwise hampering Sea Peoples' men from leaving progeny?
Don't really know enough about north and northeast Med culture but those lightest skinned Imazighen of 3000 years ago, or even in the rock art, don't display anything like what I imagine north/northeast Med culture to have been like at that time.
Fig 1. Top of image: North African males in the Aegean w/t kind of females who lightened their complexions?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, I don't know how much this helps the issue but the earliest Greek references to Libya (west of Egypt) speak of the 'Gorgon Amazons'. There are 2 main groups of Amazons in Greek legend-- the Gorgon Amazons of Libya and the Themiscyran Amazons of Asia Minor with the former being older by several millenia before the latter appeared. ... The idea of a nation ruled by a queen corresponds to the matriarchal societies of many Berber groups, and there are rock paintings of females armed with bows and arrows.
Also, I have always wondered about the relationship between North Africans and North Mediterraneans who both had '-esh' to their names. ... I read that the scholar Gordon Childe proposed that these north Mediterraneans were probably peoples who adopted the Berber languages. Is this true? ... ...heck, we have white Berber speakers in North Africa!
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Check it in Bates for the root M-Z-GH as it morphs from Mazices to Mazigh.
I posted something on this and your latter question but without the search function I have no hope of finding it.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: alTakruri, what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Graves' The Greek Myths is an excellent source for this kind of thing. Diop (can't recall which work) posits the Amazons as 'non-african' women -- his bias against Berbers -- who found respect for females among Africans. He makes good points, based on cultural analysis, for why Amazons aren't native to Africa.
I've only read Grave's work as it pertains to other Greek myths, but exactly what points did Diop make for his conclusion? Remember, Diop did not consider Berbers to be true indigenous (black) Africans even though linguistics, archaeolocy and anthropology as well as recently genetics have proven otherwise and that only the coastal Berbers of the Maghreb possess maternal European lineages.
quote:Truth to tell, I wonder if the metal age Imazighen were the product of the indigenous North African males taking Sea Peoples' women and gelding or otherwise hampering Sea Peoples' men from leaving progeny?
Is it because of the male bias lineages in the area? Remember that we have the same phenomenon in the northeast Mediterranean including the Levant and Greece. Although we have very minute evidence of maternal lineages such as N1.
quote:Don't really know enough about north and northeast Med culture but those lightest skinned Imazighen of 3000 years ago, or even in the rock art, don't display anything like what I imagine north/northeast Med culture to have been like at that time.
I know more about northeast Med. culture. All evidence indicates that the Mediterranean cultures during the early Bronze Age and especially during the Neolithic were probably matriarchal or matric in aspect. This is inferred from the archaeological finds, and many myths and stories of the peoples. Although there hasn't been much evidence actual female warriors in the area, it would not be much of surprise that they existed. By the way, what rock-art of these "lightest-skinned" females do you speak of? All the rock-art I've seen depicted dark-skinned aparently black women.
quote:Fig 1. Top of image: North African males in the Aegean w/t kind of females who lightened their complexions?
I've seen this frescoe before and others like it; however I have alse seen frescoes, especially ones from Crete which depict females in the same dark color as the males. But could the lighter convention in females be an influence from Egypt or something? Even in later Classical Greek art, women were given a lighter complexion than men who painted as tanned.
There are a few depictions in Greek art of the Libyan Gorgon Amazons. Here is one below
^The vase painting depicts a Libyan Amazon kneeling in prayer before an altar. Many scholars have pointed out the "negroid" features of the woman. And notice that the strange altar she prays in front of is the exact same kind depicted in Greek paintings featuring Egyptians.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Why is there always these absolutes? In mentioning pale women does this eclipse the fact of dark women? I hardly believe so.
Dark skinned women aren't going to lighten up the complexions of indigenous dark skinned North African.
I'm suggesting, based on the genetics and the material culture, that well before Sea Peoples' time, the earlier Imazighen/littoral North Africans were in touch with the Aegean and took many women from there to wife.
The genetics shows modern Imazighen to be overwhelmingly African in NRY yet significantly "EurAsian" in mtDNA. I'm suggesting they didn't wait until Islamic times before they started siring children on pallid foreign women.
The material culture there in BCE times is North African with little if anything south and/or southeast European about it.
Warrior Sea People males should've left more traces of their NRY and material culture. Since that's not the case, I suggest NA males took SP women while limiting SP males opportunities to leave progeny.
The rock art shows lighter skinned women who look like a variant of African womanhood even in its earliest periods of true portrait art. The Aegean piece I posted has women who look more Euro than Afro (to me) but who are African acculturated (unless Euro women are known to balance jugs on their heads.
We know NAs were generally dark enough to "cluster" with "blacks" clear up to Muslim conquest times. And we also know the north Meds viewed them as the lightest of the "blacks."
I hope this clarifies some of my thoughts about this.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sorry I don't have the book at home, but from what I remember BATES didn't provide any convincing evidence of Mshwsh being related to M-Z-GH. Didn't he just state the names were related, like they also were to... Masai(!)?
1)The word Amazigh/ Imazighen is nowadays attested among Chleuhs & Riffians where it is restricted to "the White Berber, the true Berber, as opposed to Negroids (sic)";
Among the Tuareg, where it's applied to the whole population (in the North) or to the nobility (in the South);
Also among some Berbers from Tunisia Libya & Algeria (the South of Oran),with sometimes the meaning of "master, lord, etc".
2)He then deals with ethnonyms supposedly related to M-Z-GH: -Maxyes (Herodotus) -Mazyes (Hecateus) -Mazaces, Mazices, Mazikes, Mazax, Mazazaces among latin writers;
Those names are found among the whole Maghreb to describe specific groups, but more rarely to describe the whole Maghrebian population (cf Lucanus & Corippus), although it's difficulto know if it is because a generalization by Latin authors or not.
The common ethnonym for these he postulates is Mazik- which he says is compatible with M-Z-GH, the final /k/ could correspond to the transphonologization of Berber [gh] by Latin language or to [q], which is with [gh] an allophone of a same phoneme.
He points out that it was also a nickname and is still found among some Tunisians as a surname nowadays.
3) Then CHAKER deals with the Middle-Ages where M-Z-GH isn't found as an ethnonym or an anthroponym, just as the name of an ancestor claimed by many Maghrebi.
4)In the fourth part, he deals with the etymology of the root.
He convincingly refutes proposed etymologies with the meaning of "red", "to rob", "to walk as nobleman", and says the etymology is currently uncertain because its theme has no cognates in modern Berber languages except if the root *Z-GH is related to a Berber root meaning "to erect a tent", the initial *M would be a morpheme prefixed to the theme found in many "Afrasian" languages to create a substantive from a verbal theme (cf. Arabic B-R-K, "to bless"> M-B-R-K, Mubarak "the blessed one", etc.)> "Those who dress tents, the nomads, the free men"(WTF?).
My take:
CHAKER didn't mention Mshwsh among his cognates and I believe it is for phonemic purposes.
Simply put, If the final -sh is an Egyptian morpheme as commonly believed, then the theme would be Mshw which is hardly relatable to Mazik-, a distribution M-(sibilant consonant)- (velar consonant) being largely attested in various Egyptian language synchronies.
If the ethnonyms Mshwsh & M-Z-GH, Rbw, etc. aren't not relatable to Berber, is it possible for them to be of extra-african origin?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Check it in Bates for the root M-Z-GH as it morphs from Mazices to Mazigh.
I posted something on this and your latter question but without the search function I have no hope of finding it.
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: alTakruri, what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Who were they? Were any "imported?"
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: There were female warrior dieties in Egypt.
quote: Satet is one and she came from the South. Many of the later dieties and triads are copies of those that originated in the South.
the Triad of Elephantine
Elephantine (Abu) was the ancient capital of the first nome of Upper Egypt. It is a small island just north of the First Cataract of the Nile.
Khnemu was a ram-headed creator-god whose cult center was at the city of Elephantine. Khnemu was said to have created all men and their kai from clay and straw. He molded their bodies on a giant potter's wheel. In the Pyramid Texts of the Old Kingdom, the pharaoh was called the "son of Khnemu." Inscriptions at Elephantine detail the visit to the shrine of Khnemu at Elephantine by Pharaoh Djoser. He was there to request the god's help in ending a seven year long famine which had plagued Egypt.
At the Great Temple of Luxor, Khnemu was shown sculpting the body and ka of the pharaoh. The queen had conceived the king following intercourse with Amon and Hathor brought the sculptures to life by giving them the ankh.
Rounding out the triad of Elephantine was Khnemu's consort, Satet and their daughter, Anqet. Satet, as the "Mistress of Elephantine", was associated with the annual flooding of the Nile. Anqet was the divine child of Satet and Khnemu and was seen as the guardian of Egypt's southern frontier and the Nile cataracts.
Neith is nothing but a duplicate of Satet. Both are associated with primeval waters. Both are associated with Khnum and both are associated with the hunt. However, Neith is more prominent in predynastic to dynastic times due to the prevalence of the name among royal women. But, the most important thing to note is that the bow of Neith is an ancient weapon that was almost always associated with THE SOUTH. Most theories that place the origins of neith Neith in among foreigners are just that, theories, as the oldest references to Neith are in UPPER Egypt. Likewise, those scholars who say she originated amongst the Libyans are actually talking about the Libyans to the SOUTH and WEST of Egypt, not coastal Libyans in any sense, but some people take it to mean otherwise.
quote: Nit (Gr: Neith) much later a local goddess of Zau (Gr: Sais), but known as early as the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Period when her influence probably was at its height. Earliest traces are her hieroglyph (crossed arrows on a shield) on a pole in front of the reed shrines and on pottery from Dynasty I in Abydos. Nit is sometimes a goddess of war, sometimes the patroness of weawing, a mortuary goddess and in later times an androgynous Creator.
Although Nit probably originated in Libya, the earliest traces comes from Upper Egypt. Her influence seems to have been at its height in the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Period. She is not documented in writing before the last part of the Predynastic period, but there is evidence of her before that time.
Her hieroglyph; two crossed arrows on a shield, was carved on a pole in front of the primitive reed shrines and on pottery, also on funerary stelae from Early Dynastic tombs at Abedjou and Diaspolis Parva (Hut-Sekhem, 7th Nome), and on an inlaid amulet from a tomb at Naq-el-Deir, and even on the roof of boats. There is also a wooden label from Abedjou which appears to show King Aha (c. 3100 BC) visiting a shrine to Nit. These findings indicate that she was important all over Egypt already at an early stage in history. At Abedjou she was connected to the rites of renewal of the king´s power.
Also, note that the primary symbol of Neith is the bow and arrow an ancient symbol that has long been associated with SOUTHERNERS. There can be no doubt that this is an indication of origins amongst southerners as southerners were long associated with bows and expertise in warfare using such. But, on a more fundamental level, it goes back to the origins of hunter gatherers in Africa, where women as well as men would have learned to use bows and other tools of both war and hunting. This aspect of the hunter gatherer lifestyle is seen in the rock art of the Sahara, where women are often shown engaged in the hunt and cattle herding. This therefore places Neith and Satet as purely indigenous dieties arising out of the original populations of Egypt and Africa and the role of Neith is clearly an acknowledgement of this ancient tradition.
Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
"While KM.t was not in contact with people farther away then either the western delta or the Siwa oasis, people from Tripolitania contacted KM.t and did so very violently."
WRONG!!!!
The Ancient Egyptians traded with West Africa. They were in the Tibesti region of Chad as traders!
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tibesti is the land of the Kanuri speaking Toubou and their ancestors did trade with the Ancient Egyptians. I have it spelled out in a file somewhere. Of course, Chad is right next to Nubia.
Their Rock Art is amazing.
BTW, M Z GH is really M Z R
It's Amaziren and the Tuareg have a mixed ancestry. Some clans come from the central Sahara area. Some came from Morocco/Muaretania.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Those of us familiar with the written symbol G know that aspirated it can represent a throaty R sound, at least those of us who speak or hear spoken or read some Afrisan language (like taMazight or pristine Hebrew) know this.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Are you talking about the trade in amazonite carried on by Garamantes?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
AE era usage MSHU (from whence MaXY-es and MaZY-es)
================
all the above from Bates (wonder what Hagan's got?)
quote:Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE: ... what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Don't know if they already did or not, but I think that an appropriate way to check it would be to reconstruct the early Berber roots and try to transphonologize them in regard to Egyptian restrictions.
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic