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Originally posted by alTakruri:
There was an intimate if exploitive sibling relationship between T3Wy and Kesh.
For the longest time and Egypt did rank some of Wawat and some of Kesh among the
Nine Bows (traditional symbolic enemies of the state) clear until late New
Kingdom times.

The important thing to remember is that certain Keshli families always, since the
foundation of the Dynastic period, had a right to the throne of T3Wy because of
their noble status in Gebel Barkal the prime residence of Amun the father of
legitimacy to rulership everywhere along the entire Nile Valley. A history of
the Amun/Amon/Amen cult and priesthood would be revealing. The root of this lies
at Gebel Barkal, that sacred spot near the 4th cataract holy to Amun which linked
kingship in KM.t with certain families in Kesh so that we see throughout the history
of KM.t there were rulers who held the throne due to Nehesi wives, mothers, or descent.

* As early as dynasty 3, Zanakht sits the throne.

* 4th dynasty queen Khentkaues births the first kings of the 5th dynasty.

* In the 6th dynaty the Uahka family is building NHHSY architected tombs in KM.t

* The 12th dynasty is established by the Uahka family. Its kings bear the
name of Amun in their own names just as Keshli kings will bear Amani names.

To my mind this shows a pre-18th dynasty affiliation of Amun among the NHHSYW most
likely associated with Gebel Barkal. Where else would the prominence of Amun stem
from that it was not used in KM.t in kings name before introduced by a dynasty of
NHHSY roots?

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a cult of Amen
existed at Thebes under the Ancient Empire, it is doubtful if it possessed
any more than a local importance until the XIIth dynasty. When the
princes of Thebes conquered their rivals in the north and obtained the
sovereignty of Egypt, their god Amen and his priesthood became a great
power in the land, and an entirely new temple was built by them, in his
honour, at Karnak on the right bank of the Nile. The temple was quite
small, and resembled in form and arrangement some of the small Nubian
temples; it consisted of a shrine, with a few small chambers grouped
about it, and a forecourt, with a colonnade on two sides of it. Amen was
not the oldest god worshipped there, and his sanctuary seems to have
absorbed the shrine of the ancient goddess Apit. ...


ERNEST A. WALLIS BUDGE
TUTANKHAMEN AMENISM, ATENISM AND EGYPTIAN MONOTHEISM
New York: Dodd, Mead & Co. 1923
Chap 2 TUTANKHAMEN AND THE CULT OF AMEN

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Gebel Barkal was way up south at the 4th cataract deep in Kesh. Yet it was the
seat of Amun and pharoanic legitimacy. I imagine the reason that certain NHHSYW
females endowed their husbands or sons with a natural and undisputed right to the
throne of KM.t was because they hailed from the right family from Gebel Barkal of
old from before the times of dynastic Egypt.

For instance:
* the Uakha family established the 12th dynasty
* the name Amenhotep or Amememhet shows the Uakha connection to Amun and Gebel Barkal
* Amenemhet I's (of Neferti Prophecy fame) Uakha family ancestry and marrige ties legitimized his natural right to the throne


I think that Gebel Barka was known to the A-Group originators of the royalty concept
of dynasty 0 and possibly the first attempts of state establishment (judging by the
finds of Qustul), and here's why:

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... long before the Egyptians had set eyes on Gebel Barkal, the Nubians,
too, had held it sacred. Although no pre-Egyptian settlement or cultic
remains have yet been found there, unstratified Nubian pottery has been
recovered, dating from the Neolithic, Pre-Kerma, and Kerma periods. This
indicates that the site must have been occupied at least since the fourth
millennium BC. The discovery on the summit of Gebel Barkal of
thousands of chipped stone wasters, made of types of stones that can
only be found on the desert floor, suggests that people brought stones to
the summit to work them, a practice that implies a religious motivation.
Likewise, the similarity between the sanctuary at Barkal, as it appeared in
the Egyptian and Kushite periods, and that of Kerma, as it appeared at
the end of the Classic Kerma phase, may suggest that there was a pre-
Egyptian cultic connection between Gebel Barkal and the "Western
Deffufa" at Kerma. There exists at least the possibility that the latter, a
rectangular, brick built, mountain-like platform 19 m high, may have been
built at Kerma as a magical substitute or "double" of Gebel Barkal.


from Arkamani

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... the Egyptian pharaohs of Dynasty 18 had recognized Gebel Barkal as
an ancient source of Egyptian kingship and had themselves crowned there
to affirm their rule, the new kings of Kush rediscovered this tradition and
[] used it to prove their right to rule Egypt. Since the first to recognize
the religious significance of Gebel Barkal had been the Pharoah Thutmose
III (ca. 1479-1425 BC)[.]

. . . .

If [the Keshli] have traditionally been portrayed by historians as "foreigners"
in Egypt, they surely did not see themselves as such, despite their
different ethnic, cultural and linguistic origin. In their minds Egypt and
Kush were northern and southern halves of an ancient original domain of
Amun. These two lands, they believed, had been united in mythological
times; subsequently they grew apart, to be united again in historical times
only by the greatest pharaohs. As "sons" of Amun, the Napatan monarchs
saw themselves as heirs of those pharaohs [. . .] believ[ing] they were
the god's representatives - from his southern sphere - chosen to unite
and protect his ancient empire and to restore ma'at - "truth, order, and
propriety" in the Egyptian sense - throughout the land.


from Nubianet

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There is a natural topographical feature (the holy Ipet Sut) at Gebel Barkal
that made it the earthly home of Amun/Amani. Each ruler of Kmt had to have
their legitimacy tied in to being a descendent of Amun. This is why through
all the 3000 years of the Kmtyw civilization being of a certain family from
Gebel Barkal or marrying into that family was an unquestioned and undisputed
recognition of a natural right to the Amun seat or throne of Kmt. Hence no
problem when a king of Kesh came to hold pharaohship, but rather in fact being
considered by the Ta Shamaw priesthood as the very soul of pharaonic legitimacy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
... if the newly unified Egyptians considered Ta Seti to be an enemy, why then did they concieve the Prophecy of Neferti which states that a son of a woman from Ta Seti is the legitimate ruler of Egypt?

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Posts: 307 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
Nubia extends both north and south across the border of Egypt/Sudan.
The territory Nubia covers was just a small part of Kush.

I quite correctly defined Kush as encompassing the entire modern
nation of Sudan and the part of the modern nation of Egypt where
sandstone dominates the topography. i.e. Nubia, Egyptian Nubia
not Sudanese Nubia.

I did not want to define Kush as ancient Sudan without including
the part of Nubia claimed by Egypt. I had no need to include
Sudanese Nubia in the topic header since the part of Nubia in
Sudan is already covered by the word Sudan itself.

Also if you've been reading all I wrote you've seen I started by
including the entire Lower Nile Valley as a unified cultural
complex up until the time monarchies developed when the peoples
of TaSeti.x3st and TaWy both themselves demarcated their separation.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003284;p=1#000019

I've also shown that the royalty of Kush had a certain claim to
the throne of KM.t stemming from Gebal Barkal's Amun cult well
before Piye established the 25th dynasty which is where all
the "standard" "mainstream" historians jump to after briefly
examining A-group and C-group times.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003289;p=1#000030

Not to mention proving that Senwosret III's boast weren't at
all racial epithets since he himself was of Kush ancestry holding
the throne from his ancestor Amenemhet's application of that
certain claim to the throne and "prophecy" of Neferty.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003284;p=1#000020

I understand where you're coming from and I know you can
contribute some proactive information about Kush to this
thread. We already have too much protest literature. We
must build up a new positive in outlook history of Kush
not just negatively tear down the old falsehoods which
helps keeping them alive by always bringing them to
mind though only to deconstruct them.

Thanks

quote:

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Originally posted by yazid904:
Keeping in mind genotyping as a litmus, we have to consider that without barriers like mountains, rivers, forest, jungle, etc. much of those areas are contiguous, without the boundaries that are delineated today.

To use the descriptive "Egyptian Nubia" is to deny Nubia as a whole and act as though they are a separate area/people when in antiquity they were not! Perhaps with the defeat of the native dynasties and the birth of Islam, the separation may have become permanaent, as we have been programmed to believe. Well, some of us.

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Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

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The Geology of Egypt

The three layers

A layer of limestone covers most of the surface of modern Egypt.

Beneath this lies a bed of sandstone, and this earlier sandstone is
the surface rock in Nubia and southern Upper Egypt as far north
as the area between Edfu and Luxor.


https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/geo/geology.html

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.

Lower Nubia and southern Upper Egypt was the original Ta Seti.
Don't ask me why A-Group still gets used when Qustul, TaSeti's
capital, has a cemetery good inscribed with the Ta Seti bow sign.


Note Wadi Kubaniyya on this map
thats an appx limestone/sandstone boundary
and it's in the future 2nd Nome -- Heru's
Throne which at the time was under Ta Seti
territorial claim as well as was the 1st Nome.



I think Ta Seti results from eastbound Saharo-Sudanese
and northbound Sudanis meeting on the Nile and I don't know
what about westbound Eastern Desert inhabitants.

Beyoku corrects me suggesting any northward Sudani movement
went west before going north then east back to the Nile.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Ya know, it wouldn't hurt if I updated that.
A lot can happen in 14 years, additional data.
For me, growth in the learning never ceases.

Do you have the Baines & Mallek?

I snapped and posted from them on this but
maybe the presentation was unintelligible?

If found, will bump.

Na. Howzabout this

quote:

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The Geology of Egypt

The three layers

A layer of limestone covers most of the surface of modern Egypt.

Beneath this lies a bed of sandstone, and this earlier sandstone is
the surface rock in Nubia and southern Upper Egypt as far north
as the area between Edfu and Luxor.


https://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt/geo/geology.html

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.

Lower Nubia and southern Upper Egypt was the original Ta Seti.
Don't ask me why A-Group still gets used when Qustul, TaSeti's
capital, has a cemetery good inscribed with the Ta Seti bow sign.

---

quote:

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Note Wadi Kubaniyya on this map
thats an appx limestone/sandstone boundary
and it's in the future 2nd Nome -- Heru's
Throne which at the time was under Ta Seti
territorial claim as well as was the 1st Nome.



I think Ta Seti results from eastbound Saharo-Sudanese
and northbound Sudanis meeting on the Nile and I don't know
what about westbound Eastern Desert inhabitants.

Beyoku corrects me suggesting any northward Sudani movement
went west before going north then east back to the Nile.

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Don't forget that these eastbound Saharans that contributed to Ta-Seti was the Nabta Kiseiba Culture that built the megaliths of Nabta Playa that predates Stone Henge.




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Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged |