posted
In the 19th and 20th centuries European and American Egyptologists appropriated ancient Egypt into an idea of ‘Western civilisation’ and set it apart from other African cultures. This historical colonial bias against Africa has ramifications on how we interpret ancient Egyptian and Sudanese collections today.
Although less well-known, ancient Egypt’s southern neighbour, Nubia also had a long and fascinating history. Through focussing on powerful queens, including the Qurna burial featured in our Ancient Egypt Rediscovered gallery, our speakers demonstrate how ancient Nubian culture was equally important to that of ancient Egypt.
Curator Dr Margaret Maitland and Dr Solange Ashby examine colonial-era biases which cast ancient Egypt as culturally superior and consider the politics of representation. They reassess the cultural connections between ancient Egypt and Nubia, applying this new perspective to historical collections in recognition of the importance of Nubian material culture.
This event included a live Q&A chaired by Professor Katherine Harloe.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
I notice that in most of these discussions with Solange she exclusively discusses Sudan, especially late period Sudan, but never anything about KMT proper when talkin of "black Queens". So noting about Queen Tiye as a "black queen". Nothing about Nefertiti. I mean obviously there were black Queens in Africa even before KMT, because black history in Africa is older than KMT.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just being honest, it just sounds like she wants to avoid any "controversy" by calling Tiye or Ahmose Nefertari black queens even though Nefertari was depicted explicitly as such. This is especially odd given that all those traditions she is speaking of come directly from those previous eras and she refuses to discuss it as a continuation of older African practices, which are directly related to the idea of "Southern renewal" restoring the kingdom. And as an "Egyptologist" she should know this better than anyone. Just like the tradition of divine adoratrice of Amun goes back to Ahmose Nefertari. Not to mention the rise of Amun as the prime deity traces back to the southern rulers of the 12th dynasty and their obviously black queens. Meaning you cannot separate the dynastic kingdom from its place on the Nile as a continuity of African history. The whole concept of Nubia is directly a contradiction of that continuous history on the Nile geographically with the South and over time stretching back tens of thousands of years. All of the key sites on the Nile going back 10 to 20 thousand years are in the South in the regions of so-called "Nubia", yet for some reason nobody mentions that as part of "Nubian" history. Wadi Halfa and the Halfan industry are in the area of Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan:
quote: During the Nubia Salvage Campaign and the subsequent expeditions from the 1960’s to the 1980’s, numerous sites attributed to the Late Palaeolithic (~25–15 ka) were found in the Nile Valley, particularly in Nubia and Upper Egypt. This region is one of the few to have allowed human occupations during the dry Marine Isotope Stage 2 and is therefore key to understanding how human populations adapted to environmental changes at this time. This paper focuses on two sites located in Upper Egypt, excavated by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition: E71K18, attributed to the Afian industry and E71K20, attributed to the Silsilian industry. It aims to review the geomorphological and chronological evidence of the sites, present a technological analysis of the lithic assemblages in order to provide data that can be used in detailed comparative studies, which will allow discussion of technological variability in the Late Palaeolithic of the Nile Valley and its place within the regional context. The lithic analysis relies on the chaîne opératoire concept combined with an attribute analysis to allow quantification. This study (1) casts doubts on the chronology of E71K18 and related Afian industry, which could be older or younger than previously suggested, highlights (2) distinct technological characteristics for the Afian and the Silsilian, as well as (3) similar technological characteristics which allow to group them under a same broad techno-cultural complex, distinct from those north or south of the area.
posted
Okay, so I watched the video and to Doug the issue is not about black or African queens but Nubian queens. In fact, they all seem to agree that Egypt was itself African and related to Nubia, but the focus of the lecture was on culture not 'race'. They make it clear that Europeans have traditionally viewed Egyptians as culturally 'Western' and thus the implication that they were of the same 'race' as them; however, the experts in the talk make it clear that the Egyptians showed more ties to their Nubian neighbors than to anyone else and that in the course of their development, influence went both ways. The Eurocentric ideal of Egyptians being "caucasian" and thus dominant power that "civilized" Nubia is has been totally debunked.
The video presentation is roughly divided into two parts main parts with Dr. Margaret Maitland doing her presentation on the mysterious Qurna Queen who may possibly be of Nubian ancestry and Dr. Solange Ashby doing her presentation on 4 different Nubian queens across time-- Ashayet (c. 2000 BCE), Kerma 1053 (c. 1650 BCE), Amenirdis I (c. 714-700 BCE), and Amanishakheto (c. 50 BCE- 100 CE).
It was a very interesting presentation and full of valuable info. I do agree that the title of the video is misleading in that it makes it seem that only the Nubians were black Africans and not the Egyptians, but the experts make it clear that's not the case.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Okay, so I watched the video and to Doug the issue is not about black or African queens but Nubian queens. In fact, they all seem to agree that Egypt was itself African and related to Nubia, but the focus of the lecture was on culture not 'race'. They make it clear that Europeans have traditionally viewed Egyptians as culturally 'Western' and thus the implication that they were of the same 'race' as them; however, the experts in the talk make it clear that the Egyptians showed more ties to their Nubian neighbors than to anyone else and that in the course of their development, influence went both ways. The Eurocentric ideal of Egyptians being "caucasian" and thus dominant power that "civilized" Nubia is has been totally debunked.
The video presentation is roughly divided into two parts main parts with Dr. Margaret Maitland doing her presentation on the mysterious Qurna Queen who may possibly of Nubian ancestry and Dr. Solange Ashby doing her presentation on 4 different Nubian queens across time-- Ashayet (c. 2000 BCE), Kerma 1053 (c. 1650 BCE), Amenirdis I (c. 714-700 BCE), and Amanishakheto (c. 50 BCE- 100 CE).
It was a very interesting presentation and full of valuable info. I do agree that the title of the video is misleading in that it makes it seem that only the Nubians were black Africans and not the Egyptians, but the experts make it clear that's not the case.
I am just saying if most of the Queens in the ancient Nile Valley were African then why start only with so called "Nubians"? If they were for the most part Africans in the ancient dynastic era before 1000 BC, what is the point of distinction then? It is like saying European Queens start with Queen Elizabeth in England when there were many other European queens before that. And all of her terminology is rooted in European colonial discourse using terms such as "C-Group" and so forth which has absolutely no relationship with any form of African self identity in the ancient Nile Valley. As for "Hathor Dancers" keep in mind that this is likely a remnant of the early cattle worship of places like Nabta Playa, which again is in Upper Egypt and reflective of the early precursors of Nile Valley civilization being in the South. Again, this narrative of "Nubia" excludes Nabta Playa, Wadi Halfa Wadi Kubbaniya and all that ancient history before 5,000 BC as part of this "A-Group, B-Group, C-Group" nonsense which has absolutely nothing to do with the actual history of the Nile Valley as a continuity of culture. And I don't see her challenging that and this is why the title claims one thing but actually does totally the opposite. It isn't challenging anything but staying firmly within the established colonial framework, like I said. And this is 70+ years after Diop actually challenged Egyptology in formal scholarly fashion. So in my eyes, she is just staying "safe" and not trying to rock the boat because Egyptology has no problem with Africans being in "Nubia" but that isn't the beginning of African history, kingship or queenship, which also goes beyond KMT itself.
If she didn't want to actually talk about the history of black queens then she shouldn't have put it in the title. She should have just named it, history of Nubian queens and left it at that. Not to mention she never touches on Amun as the black god of Gebel Barkal and the father of the pharoah during the middle and New Kingdom. I mean all of that is standard Egyptology and nothing really special. This is why Gods Wife of Amun was so special in the sense of representing the next potential queen mother for Amuns seed (next pharaoh). All of that started long before the Kushite pharoahs and is fundamentally part of a pattern of African kings having multiple wives which goes back prior to KMT. The only thing special about KMT was that they left so many monuments in stone, but most of the traditions are African and origins long before that.
And like I have always said on this forum, for all these so-called allies in the scholarly community, until they actually stand up in public in a formal setting and acknowledge the specific black African people in the ancient Nile Valley then they are just blowing smoke. Acknowledging "nubians" as black doesn't even count. Because doing that makes it seem that all those African scholars such as Diop, Dr Clarke and so forth were all simply quacks and frauds while "real scholarship" is different and just does some arm waving about the ancient Nile being African without being specific. IF she is afraid to say Tiye was a black queen or Ahmose was a black Queen then that tells me she isn't really trying to challenge anything.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I notice that in most of these discussions with Solange she exclusively discusses Sudan, especially late period Sudan, but never anything about KMT proper when talkin of "black Queens". So noting about Queen Tiye as a "black queen". Nothing about Nefertiti. I mean obviously there were black Queens in Africa even before KMT, because black history in Africa is older than KMT.
I get what you are saying, she does seem to want to play it "safe" but it might be also not wanting to overstate the case, in the academic sense. And I agree with you Doug, it's not enough but then can one woman do it all? I don't think so.. we need more African, Nubian, Sudanese, AA egyptologist
However, I have listened to enough of Solange that I get she is proving her case of a black nile valley ( including) Kemet... step by step.. her approach is incremental. I actually appreciate that.
We can't skip over Nubian culture, and history it's all intergral and Nubia helps to explain Egypt and vice versa.
She has extremely valuable information that not only affects the Delta but the Levant. We need to be able to indentify Kush where ever we find Kush... I don't know if I am explaining myself right but there are kernals in her lectures you just have to listen for them.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Right! First off, Dr. Ashby's specialty is Nubia that doesn't mean she denies Egypt's black identity. Second, she wasn't the one who came up with the title of the video or even created the feature video for the National Museum of Scotland, that was the curator Professor Katherine Harloe who is responsible. Lastly, there is a smart way of going about things and not to overstate things lest one gets accused of being a racialist.
I get your complaint Doug, but seriously let's not end up like our old blog mate Carlos Coke.
Meanwhile Max Dashu has a nice exposé on African Queens.
The greatness they denied, but that you always knew existed: magnificent images of ancestors, shamans, priestesses, queens, and goddesses, from Egypt to Chad and Nigeria to Zimbabwe. Masterpieces of Saharan and South African rock art; pre-pharaonic Kemetic ceramic paintings, petroglyphs, murals, and figurines; Meroitic sculptures of Sudan; the ceramic sculptures of Nok, and ancestral mothers' monuments in south Ethiopia. Don't miss these rarely-seen masterpieces of ancient African art.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I may have said this before, in other threads, but this isn't just about KMT. Africa's history goes way back before KMT and sure that other history may not have all the glory of the pyramids but it is just as important. Anyway, when it comes to the Nile Valley, most of those cultural traits that we can identify as African predate KMT..... which includes kings and queens. As an example, you have the Queen of Punt who we know about only because of the reliefs of Hatshepsut's temple. Obviously that wasn't the first black Queen of Punt. So if you care going to talk about 'black Queens' on the Nile or in Africa in general, we need to put it in the proper historical context that this history goes back tens of thousands of years. What I reject is that African history only starts with KMT or Kush when it doesn't.
As for so-called "Nubia", I have always said it is something that never existed before the Roman era and was created by Reisner and others as basically the "African" part of the Nile Valley. Which means that the African history of the Nile Valley is always put into a secondary context to the dynastic era, especially chronologically. And this is where the facts on the ground contradict this scheme, because the oldest sites of habitation, the oldest pottery, the oldest cattle burials are all in the South going back thousands of years before a KMT. And there must have been queens in places like the Khartoum Mesolithic.
And technically when people talked about the antiquity of "Nubia" in the context of KMT they were talking about those tens of thousands of years of development in the South leading up to the dynastic era. You cannot separate the two from each other as they are basically part of the same cultural complex, with the dynastic kingdom simply being the most sophisticated manifestation of that complex. SO you cannot talk about 'black queens' whether in so-called Nubia or KMT and only start at the late period KUSH. You have to go all the way back to the earliest examples of 'advanced' settlements on the nile to see if there are 'elite' burials and evidence of social stratification. Because when you talk of kings and queens you are basically talking of social stratification and hierarchies which don't require large settlements and monuments to exist. That is just the basics of archaeology and anthropology.
Likewise, those so-called "Nubian dancers" of Hathor were citizens of KMT because such a role would have been highly prestigious and not just given to 'foreigners'. Which goes back to the problems of trying to break up these cultural and historical patterns of development into "Egypt" vs "Nubia" when it doesn't make sense at that level. First because there was no monolithic nation or city state called "Nubia" and second because the main conflicts was over borders. This pattern of conflict between an organized nation state vs nomadic and pastoralist groups on their borders starts with the rise of declared national boundaries. And often this clashes with populations who have traditionally migrated due to seasonal conditions and environmental characteristics. Plus add to that the nationalism that comes with a nation state and you see how that would fuel such feuds and that pattern is seen all over the world. But culturally, that flow of traditions and deities in the Nile has always been South to North including the rise of the first kings and kingdoms that eventually unified the country. Which means there was a history of social development going back long before the predynastic. And that would include various regional cultural aspects such as those cattle rituals found at Nabta Playa, which is also in the South and likely part of the Saharan/Sahelian pastoral complex that also predates KMT. That complex pattern of evolution and various regional traditions spanning thousands of years of history among various groups of Africans wont' be understood by simplistic notions of "nubia".
quote: In the last decade, prehistoric archaeology in central Sudan and Nubia has been characterised by a regional approach and the use of proper stratigraphic methods in excavation strategies. This has also led to the discovery of well-preserved stratified Mesolithic deposits at sites affected by heavy post-depositional anthropogenic disturbances. For the first time, 65 years after the excavation of the Khartoum Hospital site, it is possible to perceive and describe material production variability, settlement pattern discontinuity and/or continuity. It has now become possible to face the problem of social complexity of hunter-gatherer-fisher groups along the middle Nile Valley, a cultural phase which lasted for at least 3,000 years. The new data suggest a reworking of the static picture of this culture, as emerging from the scientific literature, in order to move the debate in a new and more productive direction. This contribution will only be a first step, based mainly on freshly collected pottery assemblages, towards a new approach to the Khartoum Mesolithic pottery culture. It also begins a critical appraisal of the methodological and theoretical faults that hampered a correct evaluation of the data collected from previous surveys and excavations in central Sudan. Incidentally, it will help to revitalise the study of pottery-bearing hunter-gatherer-fisher societies, and supply fresh data to the worldwide anthropological debate on this complex and yet unresolved topic.
posted
Doug you've been on here for 17 years, you could have written 3 books by now or put together a team of writers and wrote a book and correct all this stuff you think is wrong. What good is complaining for 20 years about what other people write? It's time to take the reins. You could be like Van Sertima and put together a group of writers , doing a chapter or three each Tukular, Beyoku, Djehuti, Swenet etc and write a book, split the labor. If things get going you might even be able to get somebody like Mario Beatty to write a chapter. By 2025 you will have hit 20 years on ES. If I don't see a book by then, I might have to unsubscribe The book could be a volume 1, it doesn't have to be a magnum opus. Ausar Imhotep and Dr. Clyde. They already have several books. It's easier than you think, anybody can write a book now and sell it on Amazon, publishers aren't even needed. Don't even think about it just do. If you had a team you could have a book out by 2024-25 even
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anyway, getting back to the topic of the NMS presentation, what I found fascinating was the complex and intimate history Egypt had with Nubia that doesn't get discussed much in general lay public.
Take for example the Qurna Queen who was a Theban royal woman found buried with a small child near the Valley of the Kings and who dates back to the 17th dynasty (1600 BCE) of the 2nd Intermediate Period prior to the rise of the New Kingdom.
2nd Intermediate Situation
As one can see the Egypt was slowly being taken over and divided by the Hyksos in the north and the Kushites from the south. Interestingly, according to the above map Kush had gained sovereignty over the 1st Nome.
The Qurna Queen's possible Nubian ancestry is tenuous and is based solely on import objects.
Cultural connections between Egypt and Nubia Nubia was Egypt’s nearest neighbour to the south, in the area of northern Sudan and southernmost Egypt today. The burial of the ‘Qurna Queen’ contained six exquisite beakers that came from the Kingdom of Kerma in Nubia.
The presence of Nubian pottery in her grave has previously been used to argue that the woman was a Nubian princess who married into the Theban royal family, even though the burial itself was Egyptian in style. However, this theory assumed that the Nubian Kingdom of Kerma was culturally and politically subservient to Egypt.
Earlier in the 20th century, the colonial attitudes of European and American Egyptologists meant that they assumed that Egypt was culturally linked to Europe and that it must be more ‘civilized’ than the rest of Africa. Indeed, the first excavator of the site of Kerma in Sudan originally assumed that it was an Egyptian colony. This has since been proven to be incorrect.
Further excavations have shown that Kerma was the site of a wealthy and powerful kingdom with its own unique culture. The Egyptian objects that were found there seem to be luxury imports that were used to express their owners’ status and wealth.
Six Kerma beakers from Nubia found in the Qurna burial.
Could the Kerma beakers found in the Qurna burial actually be luxury imports too? In the past, Egyptologists could not imagine an ancient Egyptian choosing to be buried with Nubian objects, even though Mycenean and Cypriot vessels excavated in Egyptian graves have generally been seen as imports.
Since we now know that Kerma was just as powerful and influential as Egypt, it makes sense that Nubian items would have been considered desirable. Indeed, the delicate and beautifully formed Kerma beakers have been described as 'among the finest ceramic art forms ever created'.
Other items from the burial have often been assumed to be specifically either Egyptian or Nubian but are actually not so easily categorised. Earrings did not exist in Egypt before the Qurna burial and the idea seems to have come from Nubia, or possibly western Asia. The inlaid headrest looks Egyptian but has Nubian-style inlays. The cow/bull-legged stool is a style that was used in Egypt several hundred years earlier but was popular in Nubia at the time. The carrier net-bags have parallels in both Nubia and Egypt.
All these objects may indicate shared aspects of Nubian and Egyptian culture. Although Egyptology has often approached Nubia as ‘foreign’, re-examination of the objects from the Qurna burial suggests a greater extent of mutual influence and shared cultural heritage across the Nile Valley.
Why is the burial important? In addition to helping us reassess Egypt’s cultural connections with Nubia, the objects from the burial of the ‘Qurna Queen’ are important sources of information for Egyptologists for several reasons. Since the Qurna burial had remained untouched since antiquity, like an ancient time capsule, the many objects found in it have been very useful in dating and interpreting similar objects in other museum collections.
Furthermore, the burial dates to a period when Egypt was politically divided between competing rulers in different parts of the country, including occupiers from Western Asia in the north. Thebes was the seat of power for kings who ruled the southernmost part of Egypt.
Egyptologists know less about this period, known as the Second Intermediate Period, since the lack of political stability meant that fewer objects and text survive from this time.
The burial group is an important source of evidence for our understanding, showing that the Theban royal court was not completely isolated or at conflict with its neighbours. They still had access to skilled craftspeople, resources and trade connections beyond Egypt, but they also reused and recycled things that were harder for them to access at this time.
Although the identities of the ‘Qurna Queen’ and child remain a mystery, their burial sheds light on many fascinating aspects of ancient Egyptian culture.
Apparently the 17th dynasty had close commercial ties with Kush so what changed? No doubt it was the discovery of the Kushite-Hyksos allied conspiracy to vanquish Thebes once and for all and divide Egypt between them!
By the way, IF the Qurna Lady was indeed Nubian, what specific ethnicity was she? Despite all the luxury goods from Kush, I do have doubts about her being Kushite. It is however far more likely that she may be of Elephantine extraction that is from the Aswan area. Indeed, I was always under the impression that the 12th dynasty king Mentuhotep II's wife Ashayet was Medjay due to all the Medjay servants and guards in their court but according to Dr. Ashby she is identified with C-Group Culture. And let's not forget that the 17th dynasty king and patriarch Sekenenra Tao who is father of the founding couple of the 18th is craniofacially distinct and said to be "Nubian" in his features. Not to mention that they too had an alliance with the Medjay. So there was definitely some intermarriage going on between the Theban royals and Nubians groups.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, IF the Qurna Lady was indeed Nubian, what specific ethnicity was she? Despite all the luxury goods from Kush, I do have doubts about her being Kushite. It is however far more likely that she may be of Elephantine extraction that is from the Aswan area. Indeed, I was always under the impression that that the 12th dynasty king Mentuhotep II's wife Ashayet was Medjay due to all the Medjay servants and guards in their court but according to Dr. Ashby she is identified with C-Group Culture. And let's not forget that the 17th dynasty king and patriarch Sekenenra Tao who is father of the founding couple of the 18th is craniofacially distinct and said to be "Nubian" in his features. Not to mention that they too had an alliance with the Medjay. So there was definitely some intermarriage going on between the Theban royals and Nubians groups.
This question wont get answered is because "Nubia" is an all encompassing concept for "Southerners". As we have discussed here over the years it could refer to "Ethipians" from the Horn, peoples from the Eastern Desert, others from the Sahara/Sahel and so forth. It is a very broad and imprecise concept as it originated in a desire to lump all black Africans on the Nile into one group. But we know that after both the first and second intermediate period, the dynastic kingdom was restored with assistance from "Southerners", so they couldn't all be lumped together as a single "Nubian" entity. This is how the middle kingdom came into existence with its Southern Kings and the Southern Queens. And it is how the New Kingdom came into existence with its Southern Queens in the name of Ahmose Nefertari. This shows that these southern marriages to various women from different Southern groups was key to that restoration of Dynastic culture. Giving rise to the idea of the "black queen" being symbolically and literally a symbol of this restoration which had nothing to do with "Nubia" as opposed to KMT the nation state itself. And then not only that you have the rise of the 19th dynasty which was headed by a "chief of the Medjay" again from the South to restore the strength of the kingdom. And one of this Southern line of kings built a monument to his southern wife at Abu Simbel.
As for "black topped pottery" earlier authors had noted that this type of pottery originated in Sudan.
quote: This review article examines seventy years of research and methodological approaches to the analysis of Mesolithic and Neolithic pottery in Sudan. It begins with the studies done by A. J. Arkell at the end of the 1940s, leading to the definition of the Khartoum Mesolithic and Khartoum Neolithic ceramic traditions. The article then discusses the application of the concepts of ware, fabric, decorative technique, and chaîne opératoire to the analysis of pottery and the use of new classification tools and archaeometric methodologies.
quote: Theoretical approaches to the study of pottery are as diverse as geography, local research traditions, and archaeological premises and questions. For example, for several years, pottery studies in central, eastern, and southern Africa used ceramics as proxies for recognizing ethnic groups and linguistic identities e.g., the spread of the Bantu language speakers. This approach has been criticized, and alternative directions have been offered (see, among others, Ashley 2010; Lane 2015).
...
How do these scientific methodologies meet and combine with traditional humanistic and historical approaches in archaeology? How does the latest abundance and diversity of scientific methods affect the notion of material culture and the interpretation of human behavior? Taking advantage of the experiences I had in the field of archaeometry as a link between archaeologists and the hard scientists, I offer a review of seventy years of research on Mesolithic and Neolithic pottery in Sudan and provide a broader comparison with other African regions.
...
In Sudan, the earliest ceramics date from the mid-ninth millennium BC and come from Site 2-R-66—Amara West, northern Upper Nubia (Garcea et al. 2016); Busharia I—Kerma, Upper Nubia (Honegger and Williams 2015); and Sorourab II—central Sudan (Khabir, 1987a; Mohammed-Ali 1982) (Fig. 1). The early pottery in the region was produced by sedentary or semi-sedentary hunter-gatherers or pre-pastoral groups, who settled in the mosaic ecological environments of the early Holocene (c. 10,000–6300 BC) that developed at the onset of the humid period (see Kuper and Kröpelin 2006; Macklin et al. 2015; Zerbon 2013). During this time, in the northernmost parts of the Sudanese Nile Valley (e.g., Sai Island, in northern Upper Nubia), precipitations occurred during the winter months and hunter-gatherers settled in an open savannah type of vegetation with seasonal fresh water (Florenzano et al. 2016). In Upper Nubia (Kerma region), the landscape was dominated by extensive alluvial plains, terraces, and paleochannels (Honegger and Williams2015; Macklin et al. 2015). In central Sudan, the region of Khartoum was characterized by a more humid wooded savannah vegetation due to intense summer rainfall (Williams 2019; see also Hildebrand et al. 2018; Fig. 1).
...
People living in the middle Nile Valley during the early Holocene were strongly dependent on exploiting wild animals, local seeds, and plants. Most lived on riverine and lacustrine resources (Linseele and Zerboni 2018; see also Iacumin et al. 2016). However, there were also sites located in the hinterland, such as Shaqadud in Butana, on the steppe of eastern Sudan (Fig. 1). The inception of ceramic technology in these communities was associated with the increased sedentism and the need to process and store local wild cereals, fish, and aquatic food (e.g., Garcea 2016; Haaland 2007; Maritan et al. 2018).
...
Nevertheless, according to the trends of the time, Arkell, and other scholars working in the Sahara after him, attributed a preeminent value to the stylistic aspects of pottery based on the belief that the spread of certain innovations (so-called guide fossils or cultural markers) might have coincided with the physical movement of people. This produced now discredited diffusion theories between east and west (from the Nile Valley to the Sahara) and vice versa, together with the definition of broad cultural- technical complexes, such as the 'Neolithic of Su- danese Tradition' (Hugot 1963), the 'Saharan-Suda- nese Complex' (Camps-Fabrer 1966), and the 'Khartoum Horizon Style' (Hays 1971). Since then, the designation of horizon style relating to the dis- tribution of the wavy line and dotted wavy line motifs, and to the possible contacts and cultural affinities between the various cultures of the Nile Valley and adjacent areas, has been discussed and revised many times (e.g., Mohammed-Ali and Jae- ger 1989). In 2003, following a thorough spatial and temporal analysis of the two ceramic types, Mohammed Ali and Khabir ( 2 0 0 3 , p . 4 9 ) concluded:
"It is evident that both wavy line and dotted wavy line ceramics were associated with sites whose economies were based on seasonal hunt- ing, fishing, and wild grain-collecting, and the same subsistence economy was later supplemented by stock-herding and possibly incipient cultivation. Nonetheless, their spatial-temporal distribution is not invariably synchronous. While the wavy line pottery seems to represent a 'pottery mode tradition,' the dotted wavy line calls for a 'horizon style' phenomenon."
In this statement, the authors were using the concept of "pottery tradition" as defined by Willey (1945, p. 53) in which pottery development can be delineated "through time within the confines of a certain technique or decorative constant." The transmission of these styles during certain periods and over a large geographical area delineates a "horizon style."
...
The Esh Shaheinab Neolithic ceramics (c. 5000 - 3800 cal BC) in central Sudan mostly exhibit inner and outer burnished surfaces and vessel walls, generally thinner than Early Khartoum pottery. Surfaces show a greater variety of decorative motifs, mainly obtained by rocker impression or alternately pivoting stamping. In- terestingly, the use of unevenly serrated-edged tools became common, resulting in complex decorative mo- tifs (e.g., zigzags with waves and dots) that cover the entire vessel surface. Fine wares include black- burnished and red-burnished vessels, either undecorated or decorated only around the rim (Garcea 2020, p. 121- 124, figs. 6.3-6.6). Compared to the Early Khartoum radition, there is a greater variety of vessel shapes and types. Domestic wares can be clearly distinguished from the funerary vessels, such as caliciform beakers, and various types of bowls, jars, and dishes known from the Neolithic cemeteries of Kadruka (Maines et al. 2018; Reinold 2001, 2006), Kadero (Chlodnicki et al. 2011), and Ghaba (Salvatori et al. 2016).
In Upper Nubia (Kerma region), Early Neolithic (c. 6000-5500 BC) ceramics are burnished and decorated with rocker stamps (Honegger 2014; Honegger and Williams 2015). Later ceramics (c. 5000-4000 BC) include fine pastes with burnished or polished surfaces, undecorated or decorated with single impressions near the rim, along with black-topped and ripple wares, which resemble certain vessel types seen at Abkan and later A-Group sites in Lower Nubia (D’Ercole 2017, p. 160).
And just to show how absurd this idea of "Nubia" is just see how they describe the hairstyles of the ancient Nile Valley:
quote: Nubian wigs, which Ancient Egyptians grew fond of during the Amarna period, were meant to mimic the short curly hair that Nubian tribespeople wore.[3][4] Egyptologists believe that the Nubian wig was adopted by Queen Nefertiti after witnessing the hairstyle being worn by Nubians in the Pharaoh's army.[5] Though there has been a discussion on what qualifies as a Nubian wig, some arguing layered wigs known as "duplex" styles that include curls and plaits may also be Nubian wigs. Still, many refer to this as a Nubian style and not a Nubian wig.[4]
This hairstyle is an African hairstyle common across all of Africa, geographically and temporally. To claim that they got this from "Nubia" is to argue that the dynastic people were not Africans themselves. Not to mention that whole theory contradicts the idea of monolithic "Nubian" people as why would they have "Nubian" soldiers if they hated "Nubians" so much?
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: This question won't get answered because "Nubia" is an all encompassing concept for "Southerners". As we have discussed here over the years it could refer to "Ethipians" from the Horn, peoples from the Eastern Desert, others from the Sahara/Sahel and so forth. It is a very broad and imprecise concept as it originated in a desire to lump all black Africans on the Nile into one group.
That's incorrect. The Egyptian word for 'south' is 'rshwt' (reshut). The term used for 'Nubians' is Nhsw (Nehesu) and their land Ta Nehesi which designated the region the Romans called 'Nubia'. It wasn't some vague generic term for 'south' but an actual geographic region that did NOT include modern Ethiopia which was called Pwnt/Punt. Egypt's immediate African neighbors were the Nehesu to the south, the Libyans or oases dwellers to their west and the hill peoples of the deserts to their east. The Medjay by the way, are labeled as 'Nhsw' because they originated from the south from Ta Nehesi.
quote:But we know that after both the first and second intermediate period, the dynastic kingdom was restored with assistance from "Southerners", so they couldn't all be lumped together as a single "Nubian" entity. This is how the middle kingdom came into existence with its Southern Kings and the Southern Queens. And it is how the New Kingdom came into existence with its Southern Queens in the name of Ahmose Nefertari. This shows that these southern marriages to various women from different Southern groups was key to that restoration of Dynastic culture.
But again, it seems you are the only who is lumping them all together by the directional term "southern". What exactly do you mean by that, rather just how far south are we speaking?? Are you referring to the Setiu people from the 1st Nome Ta Seti/Ta Khentit or people farther south still? Examples of Elephantine families are the 12th Dynasty, Governor Heqaib-ankh and Nomarch Khema.
quote:Giving rise to the idea of the "black queen" being symbolically and literally a symbol of this restoration which had nothing to do with "Nubia" as opposed to KMT the nation state itself. And then not only that you have the rise of the 19th dynasty which was headed by a "chief of the Medjay" again from the South to restore the strength of the kingdom. And one of this Southern line of kings built a monument to his southern wife at Abu Simbel.
You are absolutely correct. By the way, the Medjay people were so loyal to Egypt that many of their warriors were hired as royal guards and police for the public. So "chief of Medjay" is simply a title for chief of royal guard or police. I already explained that there is much confusion between Ta-Seti the 1st nome and the kingdom of Ta Seti that was vanquished by Kmt.
quote:As for "black topped pottery" earlier authors had noted that this type of pottery originated in Sudan.
quote:And just to show how absurd this idea of "Nubia" is just see how they describe the hairstyles of the ancient Nile Valley:
quote: Nubian wigs, which Ancient Egyptians grew fond of during the Amarna period, were meant to mimic the short curly hair that Nubian tribespeople wore.[3][4] Egyptologists believe that the Nubian wig was adopted by Queen Nefertiti after witnessing the hairstyle being worn by Nubians in the Pharaoh's army.[5] Though there has been a discussion on what qualifies as a Nubian wig, some arguing layered wigs known as "duplex" styles that include curls and plaits may also be Nubian wigs. Still, many refer to this as a Nubian style and not a Nubian wig.[4]
This hairstyle is an African hairstyle common across all of Africa, geographically and temporally. To claim that they got this from "Nubia" is to argue that the dynastic people were not Africans themselves. Not to mention that whole theory contradicts the idea of monolithic "Nubian" people as why would they have "Nubian" soldiers if they hated "Nubians" so much?
Uh... Actually the examples you provided are NOT the "nubian wigs" that the scholars are speaking of. By 'Nubian wigs' they mean the lappet wing hair style that the 18th dynasty popularized.
This style was adopted from Nhesi, who were themselves adopted in the royal court.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: That's incorrect. The Egyptian word for 'south' is 'rshwt' (reshut). The term used for 'Nubians' is Nhsw (Nehesu) and their land Ta Nehesi which designated the region the Romans called 'Nubia'. It wasn't some vague generic term for 'south' but an actual geographic region that did NOT include modern Ethiopia which was called Pwnt/Punt. Egypt's immediate African neighbors were the Nehesu to the south, the Libyans or oases dwellers to their west and the hill peoples of the deserts to their east. The Medjay by the way, are labeled as 'Nhsw' because they originated from the south from Ta Nehesi.
DJ I think you are misreading what I wrote if you believe that I think that. I have been openly calling out my objections to the modern usage of the term "Nubia" since I got on this forum and I cant believe you think I am saying anything other than that. Egyptology uses the term "nubia" as a synonym for "negro land", "sub saharan" and so forth, including "Nehesy".
From the Oxford Dictionary of Ancient Egypt:
quote: Nehesy is listed in the Turin Canon in the group generally identified as the 14th Dynasty, the capital of which — according to Manetho — was Xois in the western Delta. Nehesy was a high official who for a short time (no regnal years are known) assumed a royal status at Avaris. Probably Nehesy was an Egyptian, or perhaps a Nubian (the literal meaning of Nehesy); nothing in his inscriptions suggests otherwise. The king whom he originally served was probably still reigning from the city of Itjtawy, near Lisht, which was not abandoned until after 1685 bc, although Sobekhotep IV (c.1725 bc) was the last really powerful king of the 13th Dynasty.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: But again, it seems you are the only who is lumping them all together by the directional term "southern". What exactly do you mean by that, rather just how far south are we speaking?? Are you referring to the Setiu people from the 1st Nome Ta Seti/Ta Khentit or people farther south still? Examples of Elephantine families are the 12th Dynasty, Governor Heqaib-ankh and Nomarch Khema.
DJ, I think you are misreading what I wrote if you are seriously saying that. LOL.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Giving rise to the idea of the "black queen" being symbolically and literally a symbol of this restoration which had nothing to do with "Nubia" as opposed to KMT the nation state itself. And then not only that you have the rise of the 19th dynasty which was headed by a "chief of the Medjay" again from the South to restore the strength of the kingdom. And one of this Southern line of kings built a monument to his southern wife at Abu Simbel.
You are absolutely correct. By the way, the Medjay people were so loyal to Egypt that many of their warriors were hired as royal guards and police for the public. So "chief of Medjay" is simply a title for chief of royal guard or police. I already explained that there is much confusion between Ta-Seti the 1st nome and the kingdom of Ta Seti that was vanquished by Kmt.
Egyptology isn't confused about this because it is part of their own dogma reinforce the distinction between Egypt and the rest of Africa. So while Medjay may mean Nubian in one context, it can mean something completely different in another. Not because of any logical facts, but because of ideology being promoted. As in when the first Rameses of the 19th dynasty is called chief of the Medjay, somehow that is not an indication of being "Nubian", because of course it is the Ramesid line and for a long time they promoted the Ramesids as being from the Nile Delta. We have discussed this before and suffice to say I am not talking about the ancients use of terms at all here. This ideology constantly contradicts itself is the point and that is where the confusion comes from and not from the ancients.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:As for "black topped pottery" earlier authors had noted that this type of pottery originated in Sudan.
Yes, some of us do but "Nubiology" only starts in 2000 BC going forwards so most of those things would not be included as so-called "Nubian" history. Again showing how arbitrary and contradictory the concept is.
As such here is the description of Nubiology from the Polish academy:
quote: Cultural identity of Africa as a historical process. The point of reference of this research are studies on Medieval cultures of the Nile valley, and its core –architecture, arts, epigraphy and burial customs based on the results of the Polish excavation works in Nubia, Old Dongola as well as Faras, Banganarti and Selib.
And in that definition it says point blank "Nubia" is a synonym for "Africa".
Other people have pointed out these contradictions inside the scholarly community as well:
quote: Interpreting Culture It is the case that studies of the post-Meroitic period in Nubia still labour under two major generalisations which are leitmotifs within the explanation and interpretation of life in Lower Nubia. Firstly, from the earliest days of archaeological investigation in Nubia, there has been a pervasive belief in the third-class nature of social life and its attendant material culture in Nubia during the periods when Nubia is left to its own devices without the ‘enlivening spirit’ provided by contact with Egyptian, Mediterranean, or Byzantine culture. Such a view is oftentied into racially prejudiced views concerning the indigenous cultures of Africa and theabilities of black African peoples. This position is evident from the amount of derogatoryvocabulary with which authors have freely spoken about Nubian people and culture (theexamples given below are only a small selection). Secondly, an underlying tendency tointerpret the archaeological evidence through the lens of a culture-evolutionary perspective,has simplified the variability of the archaeological record. Other aspects of the record have been overlooked (such as metallurgy, or ritual practices) in favour of pottery chronologies that better fit the interpretive context. It is clear that this second point is intricately bound together with the first.
Excavation reports that were published as part of the Archaeological Survey of Nubia asearly as the nineteen tens contain detailed information on human remains. The anatomistsworking on the skeletal material from the various Nubian sites were always strongly interested n what Elliot Smith referred to as ‘The Racial Problem’ (Elliot Smith 1910). Of course, it wasPetrie, who first raised the question of racial origins, when in his excavation report for Naqadaand Ballas (1896) he advanced the theory of an alien ‘Dynastic Race’ as the possible foundersof Egyptian civilisation. The tone of these discussions is very dated, and at times unashamedlyracist. The underlying narrative is that the native ‘negroid’ inhabitants of Nubia were, atdifferent points in history (such as the New Kingdom), enriched by the biological goodness of the Pharaonic stock, which enabled them to advance culturally. The consequence of thewithdrawal of Egyptian genetic influence was a relapse into decadence. In order to increase thescientificity of this perspective, craniology was often used. Metric measurements of cranialfeatures were carried out on human remains. Whilst the use of quantitative methods gave theimpression of objectivity, this was not necessarily the most important aspect of the analysis, asElliot Smith states: ‘it should never be forgotten that chief reliance must always be placed on biological characters rather than on mere metric data. The appreciation of the form of thevarious parts of the face and skull gives certain information for the determination of racialcharacters which no measurement can express, and supplies us with irrefutable facts whichcannot be set forth by mere figures’ (Elliot Smith, 1910, 21). Although using an apparentlyobjective methodology, the subjective attribution of racial attributes from visual inspectionwas sometimes given primacy. One might question whether the viewer might not begin to seewhat they wanted to see. A general theoretical racism underpins certain writing on Nubian peoples and cultures, which equates ‘Egyptian’ traits with civilisation, and ‘Negroid’ withdegeneracy. Reisner expresses this view when he discusses his findings at Kerma: ‘Thislagging behind of the Nubian communities was accompanied by an increasing change in theracial character of the people. The Negroid element became more marked I take it that a racewhich cannot produce or even fully utilize the products of a higher culture must, from anhistorical point of view, still be counted in its former state. The evidences of the fortuitous possession of the products of a higher culture only deepen the impression of culturalincompetence’ (Reisner 1923, 7). The physical characteristics of a race (however they weredetermined) were deemed to be directly related to how that race could and would behave.Cultural organisation and potential was limited by this kind of essentialist approach. Toclassify a person or group as a particular race by their bodily remains was to already have anassumption about what they could and could not ‘achieve’ socially. Later authors do not makeclaims that are based on the biological character of the human remains that are excavated, butthey have continued to discuss Egyptian and Nubian culture by juxtaposing value-laden termssuch as ‘civilized’ and ‘vigorous’ with ‘primitive’ and ‘barbarian’ (Adams 1964; 1965). Eventhe material culture of Nubian peoples has been written about in a detrimental fashion. For example, Torok described pottery of the Wadi Qitna Handmade Wares of the X-Group period,which he believed to have originated with the Noba, as ‘plebian’ (1988, 235-236).
The point here is that they frame the study of "Nubia" deliberately around its inferiority to the dynastic kingdom by limiting themselves to the later eras of that history. They don't go back and include the 10,000 years of history before 2000 BC showing the evolution of culture and pottery before that. This is not an accident or coincidence.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Uh... Actually the examples you provided are NOT the "nubian wigs" that the scholars are speaking of. By 'Nubian wigs' they mean the lappet wing hair style that the 18th dynasty popularized.
This style was adopted from Nhesi, who were themselves adopted in the royal court.
The whole point was that the braided hairstyle is common across Africa and is not unique to "Nubia". The people of the dynastic era were wearing braided hairstyles from the very beginning. That "style" is simply an evolution of the braided hairstyle that became popular among various African groups. It doesn't make sense to call it "Nubian" as if the dynastic culture did not already practice this common African tradition of braiding hair. And there is no hard proof where it originated and it really doesn't matter, it is just another example of a common African pattern of custom across different groups of Africans. Calling it a "Nubian" hairstyle is implying that the Dynastic culture was "non African" and importing "African" customs as opposed to simply an evolution of an already existing African custom already in place.
And if you look across the history of the hairstyles in the Dynastic Kingdom you will see other variations all falling into this pattern of African custom:
Middle Kingdom Amenhemaat (one of the Kings from the South Named Ameny - prophecy of Neferti)
^^ They do have the horizontal layering of strands which hang down vertically
I could be wrong but this still looks very fake to me, too thick and the underside is blank
Scribe, found in Saqqara, 5th dynasty Rijksmuseum van Oudheden in Leiden. Dutch National Museum of Antiquities,
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: DJ I think you are misreading what I wrote if you believe that I think that. I have been openly calling out my objections to the modern usage of the term "Nubia" since I got on this forum and I can't believe you think I am saying anything other than that. Egyptology uses the term "nubia" as a synonym for "negro land", "sub saharan" and so forth, including "Nehesy".
Bro, calm down! You seem to be generalizing Egyptology and accusing it of being the same field it was back in the 19th century. How the term "Nubia" is used depends on the one using it. Most Egyptologists nowadays acknowledge that 'Nubia' or the Egyptian term 'Nehesi' refers to a specific region, NOT an ethnicity much less a racial group "negro". This is not to say there are no people, let alone scholars, who cling to such outdated views but the way you're writing seems like you're just being paranoid. Unless you can find proof that Dr. Maitland or Dr. Ashby meant anything racial by use of the term 'Nubian', your complaints are unnecessary.
Really it's a shame that old Egyptology has perverted the term 'Nubian' into something racial. It would be like saying 'Macedonian' means white or caucasian in context of ancient Greece as if the Greeks were not, with Macedonia to the north of Greece being truly European implying that Greece is not. By the way, not only was there a Macedonian people (Makedones) but the personal name 'Makedon' that is found in Greek language as well.
quote:The whole point was that the braided hairstyle is common across Africa and is not unique to "Nubia". The people of the dynastic era were wearing braided hairstyles from the very beginning. That "style" is simply an evolution of the braided hairstyle that became popular among various African groups. It doesn't make sense to call it "Nubian" as if the dynastic culture did not already practice this common African tradition of braiding hair. And there is no hard proof where it originated and it really doesn't matter, it is just another example of a common African pattern of custom across different groups of Africans. Calling it a "Nubian" hairstyle is implying that the Dynastic culture was "non-African" and importing "African" customs as opposed to simply an evolution of an already existing African custom already in place.
And again you're making another straw doll argument. The issue isn't about braided hairstyles in general, it is about a particular style of hair that was worn by Nubians first and adopted by the Egyptians during the New Kingdom. It was called 'Nubian' style because it was originally worn by Nehesi. Nobody said anything about Egyptians adopting "African" customs because they themselves ARE African, rather they adopted a particular fashion style of another neighboring African group. If ancient Koreans were adopting a Chinese hairstyle does that make the former non-Asians adopting an Asian custom?? Again, your paranoia is getting the better of you and you are reading into writing things that are not there!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: DJ I think you are misreading what I wrote if you believe that I think that. I have been openly calling out my objections to the modern usage of the term "Nubia" since I got on this forum and I can't believe you think I am saying anything other than that. Egyptology uses the term "nubia" as a synonym for "negro land", "sub saharan" and so forth, including "Nehesy".
Bro, calm down! You seem to be generalizing Egyptology and accusing it of being the same field it was back in the 19th century. How the term "Nubia" is used depends on the one using it. Most Egyptologists nowadays acknowledge that 'Nubia' or the Egyptian term 'Nehesi' refers to a specific region, NOT an ethnicity much less a racial group "negro". This is not to say there are no people, let alone scholars, who cling to such outdated views but the way you're writing seems like you're just being paranoid. Unless you can find proof that Dr. Maitland or Dr. Ashby meant anything racial by use of the term 'Nubian', your complaints are unnecessary.
So now you claim to speak for most Egyptologists? The Oxford dictionary of Ancient Egypt is current Egyptology? Why are you so offended and desiring to act as a spokesman for these people? I am not disparaging Ms Ashby, the point is that "Nubiology" as a course of study was defined by Europeans, not Africans. And if Africans are going to discuss African history correctly then it requires discarding outdated and obsolete baggage. If "Nubia" just means area between Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan as a geographic reference then just say that. And I am not saying that the term has no absolute value as there are absolutely modern populations who use the term. However, it using it as an absolute historical reference going back thousands of years is the problem and this isn't the first time I have said it. My way of looking at it is that Egyptology has no problem promoting "Nubian" scholarship as "African" history, while the Dynasic Era as "Near Eastern". This is how these two courses of study are often categorized in academia. That has nothing to do with Ms Ashby or any other African scholar.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Really it's a shame that old Egyptology has perverted the term 'Nubian' into something racial. It would be like saying 'Macedonian' means white or caucasian in context of ancient Greece as if the Greeks were not, with Macedonia to the north of Greece being truly European implying that Greece is not. By the way, not only was there a Macedonian people (Makedones) but the personal name 'Makedon' that is found in Greek language as well.
It is not a shame it is a fact of European scholarship and the origin of European anthropology to begin with. I find it odd how you all of a sudden act like most anthropology over 100 years ago wasn't explicitly racist. This isn't an exception, it was the rule. And I don't see why you are now coming out to defend this institution when it has never ever openly, publicly or blatantly supported the African identity of the ancient Dynastic Nile Valley ever. They stole artifacts from Africa and now have them in European museums and claim those artifacts and cultures that created them weren't African. But somehow Africans calling them out on that are the "bad guys"? Man please. I personally will always be against anybody who implies or claims that "Nubia" is the beginning of African history or the only African part of the ancient Nile, no matter who they are or what they look like.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: And again you're making another straw doll argument. The issue isn't about braided hairstyles in general, it is about a particular style of hair that was worn by Nubians first and adopted by the Egyptians during the New Kingdom. It was called 'Nubian' style because it was originally worn by Nehesi. Nobody said anything about Egyptians adopting "African" customs because they themselves ARE African, rather they adopted a particular fashion style of another neighboring African group. If ancient Koreans were adopting a Chinese hairstyle does that make the former non-Asians adopting an Asian custom?? Again, your paranoia is getting the better of you and you are reading into writing things that are not there!
No, you decided to object to what I wrote because for some reason you are on a mission to defend the usage of the term "Nubia" for some odd reason. African braids are African braids. I made that clear and now you are trying to reword and redefine what that means when the New Kingdom braids are not that much different than the braids depicted in the Old and Middle Kingdom. To suggest that this is simply an "import" from "Nubia" is missing the point that braided hairstyles were always worn in Africa and the Nile Africa was part of that tradition from the beginning. And you will almost never find any Egyptology work that associates the hairstyles of the dynastic Era with Africa, outside the "Nubian wig". That is the point of why I reject the way this idea of "Nubia" is used and I made this clear but for some reason you are acting like you don't see this or want to defend this nonsense.
If you have some evidence or sources to the contrary please feel free to post them but otherwise I stand by what I said.
On a side note, just like I dislike the concept of "Nubia", I also dislike the concept of "Near East" as well, because no ancient culture ever identified with it or saw themselves as part of it. And it is a relative geopolitical term that only has meaning in the context of the British in the 1800s, specifically in relation to the Ottoman Empire. Other than that it has no relevance to the ancient history the Mediterranean region, Levantine region, Tigris and Euprhates region, Persian gulf region or Nile Valley region.
And honestly, beyond all of that, the other reason I reject this "nubian wig" nonsense is partly because I believe it was an evolution in artistic canon. Older depictions of hair followed a certain canon but likely depicted similar styles to what we see in New Kingdom art. But during the New Kingdom the artistic canon changed and thus the way they depicted hair changed. And as a result they put more detail into the hair allowing it to have a more natural look and more elaborate forms. Meaning, such hairstyles were likely already present to some degree but the canon of prior eras didn't depict such styles as often or elaborately as the later eras.
The below hairstyle is a braided one but depicted almost like cords coming out of the head as opposed to braids and then look how they terminate abruptly in a single flat block instead of individual coils. That is artistic canon to my eyes more than anything.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: The Egyptian word for 'south' is 'rshwt' (reshut). The term used for 'Nubians' is Nhsw (Nehesu) and their land Ta Nehesi which designated the region the Romans called 'Nubia'.
Doug is also against the term Nehesu
Doug's view, he can correct me if I am wrong is that Nile valley civilization is one thing and Egypt/Nubia or Egypt/Nehesi are artificial dichotomies used frequently to imply racial difference imposed by the European field "Egyptology"
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
as if there are two separate planes, an inner and outer plane of strands and the way the strands here flare out in a stiff looking way , like the inner plane is twisted forward, it doesn't look natural. The strands are smaller at the top of the head but if it was real head the size would be uniform A wig or not a wig , I can't tell
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: So now you claim to speak for most Egyptologists? The Oxford dictionary of Ancient Egypt is current Egyptology? Why are you so offended and desiring to act as a spokesman for these people? I am not disparaging Ms Ashby, the point is that "Nubiology" as a course of study was defined by Europeans, not Africans. And if Africans are going to discuss African history correctly then it requires discarding outdated and obsolete baggage. If "Nubia" just means area between Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan as a geographic reference then just say that. And I am not saying that the term has no absolute value as there are absolutely modern populations who use the term. However, it using it as an absolute historical reference going back thousands of years is the problem and this isn't the first time I have said it. My way of looking at it is that Egyptology has no problem promoting "Nubian" scholarship as "African" history, while the Dynasic Era as "Near Eastern". This is how these two courses of study are often categorized in academia. That has nothing to do with Ms Ashby or any other African scholar.
No, I don't speak for Egyptology but I do tend to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. It's as simple as that. And I am not so hung up on the racist history of Egyptology that I see "negrophobia" in an Egyptologists' writings when there isn't any.
quote:It is not a shame it is a fact of European scholarship and the origin of European anthropology to begin with. I find it odd how you all of a sudden act like most anthropology over 100 years ago wasn't explicitly racist. This isn't an exception, it was the rule. And I don't see why you are now coming out to defend this institution when it has never ever openly, publicly or blatantly supported the African identity of the ancient Dynastic Nile Valley ever. They stole artifacts from Africa and now have them in European museums and claim those artifacts and cultures that created them weren't African. But somehow Africans calling them out on that are the "bad guys"? Man please. I personally will always be against anybody who implies or claims that "Nubia" is the beginning of African history or the only African part of the ancient Nile, no matter who they are or what they look like.
Again I'm not defending the institution. I'm defending the individuals in it including many people of African descent who are trying to right the wrongs of that institution. You are just arguing for no apparent reason. You seem to be confusing the fact that there was a cultural distinction between Kmt and Nhsi as some sort of racial distinction when we know that among the Egyptians closest relatives were Nubians! So your complaints are null and void!
quote:No, you decided to object to what I wrote because for some reason you are on a mission to defend the usage of the term "Nubia" for some odd reason. African braids are African braids. I made that clear and now you are trying to reword and redefine what that means when the New Kingdom braids are not that much different than the braids depicted in the Old and Middle Kingdom. To suggest that this is simply an "import" from "Nubia" is missing the point that braided hairstyles were always worn in Africa and the Nile Africa was part of that tradition from the beginning. And you will almost never find any Egyptology work that associates the hairstyles of the dynastic Era with Africa, outside the "Nubian wig". That is the point of why I reject the way this idea of "Nubia" is used and I made this clear but for some reason you are acting like you don't see this or want to defend this nonsense.
If you have some evidence or sources to the contrary please feel free to post them but otherwise I stand by what I said.
Dude, nobody is arguing that Egyptians have always worn African braid styles because they themselves ARE African!! The issue is that they DID ADOPT a specific style of hair from Nubians during the New Kingdom, which by the way wasn't braided at all but seemed to be twisted or curled like the Afar hairstyle below...
..except done in layers and trimmed to give bird wings shape hence the other name for the style is 'lappet wings'.
This is a FACT of history not just 'Egyptology' which is why even Egyptian texts they labled such a hairstyle 'Nehesi'. It was first introduced to the royal court by Nubian elites who were adopted into the royal household, after which Egyptian royals adopted for themselves and popularized it. I don't see how one African group adopting the style of another African group somehow takes away from the African identity. I already gave you the example of Koreans adopting from Chinese. Seriously Doug you are starting to sound unstable.
quote:On a side note, just like I dislike the concept of "Nubia", I also dislike the concept of "Near East" as well, because no ancient culture ever identified with it or saw themselves as part of it. And it is a relative geopolitical term that only has meaning in the context of the British in the 1800s, specifically in relation to the Ottoman Empire. Other than that it has no relevance to the ancient history the Mediterranean region, Levantine region, Tigris and Euprhates region, Persian gulf region or Nile Valley region.
The difference between 'Near East' and 'Nubia' is that the former geographic term is vague whereas the latter specific. 'Nubia' refers to the region south of Egypt from the 1st cataract at Aswan to the 6th cataract just north of modern Khartoum. Likewise 'Macedonia' in ancient times was demarcated by the Olympus Massif that separated Greece to its south, the Pindus Mountains that separated Epirus to its west, the Nestos River that separated Thrace to its east, and some mountains separate Dardania to its north (although the northern area was once Paeonia which was annexed). Nubia was the Roman version of the Egyptian term Ta Nehesi, so NO the word is not some Eurocentric distortion but actually a variant of a geographic term the native African Egyptians used! If you truly have a problem with it, then take it up with the Egyptians! LOL
quote:And honestly, beyond all of that, the other reason I reject this "nubian wig" nonsense is partly because I believe it was an evolution in artistic canon. Older depictions of hair followed a certain canon but likely depicted similar styles to what we see in New Kingdom art. But during the New Kingdom the artistic canon changed and thus the way they depicted hair changed. And as a result they put more detail into the hair allowing it to have a more natural look and more elaborate forms. Meaning, such hairstyles were likely already present to some degree but the canon of prior eras didn't depict such styles as often or elaborately as the later eras.
Of course it's an evolution of style. An integral part of fashion change is adoption of foreign styles. As I just explained above. Dude, give it up! You are rants are looking irrational!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: No, I don't speak for Egyptology but I do tend to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. It's as simple as that. And I am not so hung up on the racist history of Egyptology that I see "negrophobia" in an Egyptologists' writings when there isn't any.
I said that Egyptology to this day uses Nubia as a way to separate the dynastic kingdom from Africa. As if somehow they have changed their stripes and suddenly now are trying to tell the truth.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Again I'm not defending the institution. I'm defending the individuals in it including many people of African descent who are trying to right the wrongs of that institution. You are just arguing for no apparent reason. You seem to be confusing the fact that there was a cultural distinction between Kmt and Nhsi as some sort of racial distinction when we know that among the Egyptians closest relatives were Nubians! So your complaints are null and void!
I said the hair of the dynastic era was African and did not originate from "Nubia". You seem to be worried about how I say things as if you are so hyper worried about defending Egyptology. The reason why I say this is again because it implies a distinction between African "Nubia" and non African "Egypt". And certainly African history does not start with so called "Nubia". If you want to defend the usage of the term then fine, but I don't agree with it and you can certainly do what you want to do. I am just explaining my reasoning on it and feel free to disagree.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Dude, nobody is arguing that Egyptians have always worn African braid styles because they themselves ARE African!! The issue is that they DID ADOPT a specific style of hair from Nubians during the New Kingdom, which by the way wasn't braided at all but seemed to be twisted or curled like the Afar hairstyle below...
..except done in layers and trimmed to give bird wings shape hence the other name for the style is 'lappet wings'.
This is a FACT of history not just 'Egyptology' which is why even Egyptian texts they labled such a hairstyle 'Nehesi'. It was first introduced to the royal court by Nubian elites who were adopted into the royal household, after which Egyptian royals adopted for themselves and popularized it. I don't see how one African group adopting the style of another African group somehow takes away from the African identity. I already gave you the example of Koreans adopting from Chinese. Seriously Doug you are starting to sound unstable.
Where is a primary text in heiroglyphs that calls the so-called "lappet wig" a "Nehesi" hairstyle? And where are your sources from Egyptology texts or texts written by self proclaimed Egyptologists stating this? Because at this point I see you injecting your own information into this and that is fine, but at this point this isn't an "Egyptology" issue. As I fundamentally disagree with all of what you said and gave my reasoning for it already.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The difference between 'Near East' and 'Nubia' is that the former geographic term is vague whereas the latter specific. 'Nubia' refers to the region south of Egypt from the 1st cataract at Aswan to the 6th cataract just north of modern Khartoum. Likewise 'Macedonia' in ancient times was demarcated by the Olympus Massif that separated Greece to its south, the Pindus Mountains that separated Epirus to its west, the Nestos River that separated Thrace to its east, and some mountains separate Dardania to its north (although the northern area was once Paeonia which was annexed). Nubia was the Roman version of the Egyptian term Ta Nehesi, so NO the word is not some Eurocentric distortion but actually a variant of a geographic term the native African Egyptians used! If you truly have a problem with it, then take it up with the Egyptians! LOL
I am talking about how in most universities, Egypt is part of "Near Eastern studies" while Nubia is part of African studies. And the reason why it is called the "Near East" is because North Africa, the Eastern Mediterranean, Levant and Iraq were under Ottoman control. And that term was another reference for said empire as it was blocking trade and travel with parts of the British empire further east. Not only that but the Ottomans were the ones who gave permission to dig up so many of the artifacts from these regions that now sit in European museums. And none of this has to do with the crux of the issue which is how the hairstyles of the Nile valley was depicted in art. And I don't understand why you are even going off on a tangent to even sit here and debate me about the meaning of the word "Near East". And in that context "Nubia" as a term for archaeology and anthropology was created as a synonym for Africa.
As such:
quote: Nubia. Information; Related objects. Also known as: Nubia: Nubia (Africa) (Africa). Related terms: Egypt: Sudan. Broader terms: Africa.
(13 mins) This short film traces the rise and fall of the Ancient Nubian Kingdom and civilization, its role as a crossroads for trade between Africa and Egypt, and its shifting power locus down the River Nile.
So like I said, to this day, when Egyptology says "Nubia" they mean it as a synonym for Africa, while when they say "Egypt" they mean it as a synonym for "Near East". It has been like this for over 100 years and nothing about it has changed in the slightest. So I don't even know what you are talking about.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Of course it's an evolution of style. An integral part of fashion change is adoption of foreign styles. As I just explained above. Dude, give it up! You are rants are looking irrational!
I know it is. That is why I said it. Thanks for agreeing. I don't make irrational arguments and certainly don't see how you can sit here and pretend to tell me how I process information and how to analyze facts. Like I said, just to get to the crux of the issue, is that I don't see that style of hair as arising from so-called "nubians" in the 18th dynasty. I see it as an evolution of the art used to represent the hairstyles in canon. As time went on they began to include more detail in the art for depicting air. Most old kingdom art does not have as much detail in depicting individual braids of hair as you see in later eras. This is why I see it mostly as an evolution of artistic canon with more detail being added to the display of hair. And again, the sharp cut off of the hair or hair disappearing behind the shoulders is part of the canon of the old kingdom canon. So we cannot say exactly how those hairstyles looked in real life because those old kingdom depictions are very simplified. While in later eras you have much more details in the hair showing individual locks or braids and more realistic depictions of the ends of the braids flowing naturally around the shoulders and not simply ending in a block or disappearing behind the shoulder. So it isn't an issue of who originated the "style" as "Nubians" did not control the canon used in the art of the dynastic era. And the only reason that you see those styles of braids is because of the change to the way the hair styles were depicted not so much as when or by whom those hairstyles came about.
This is how I look at the issue and nothing you have shown me has changed that opinion.
Calling it "African" is just a fact, but I don't see Egyptology calling it that and this is where you are proposing to speak for Egyptology when you don't. I have never seen any Egyptology text or video stating the hairstyles of the Nile Valley were African ever at any point of time other than talking about "Nubian style" wigs. Case in point, Joanne Fletcher one of the more notable examples of someone who has made a name of herself on this topic. So when I say that I say that the way I say it for a reason and you arguing that Egyptology views otherwise is just you defending this institution. And again there is no absolute proof that this style of hair originated from "Nubia". The article you posted argues that is due to a depiction of Amenhotep II as a "Nubian commander" with that hairstyle. And the only visual evidence of this is a line drawing because I cannot find the original image. Nothing in that line drawing stands out to me as "Nubian" and just sounds like an arbitrary usage of the term because Amenhotep II was not "Nubian". Not to mention there has never ever been any other examples of a pharaoh being portrayed as a "nubian commander". And this is exactly the kind of nonsense I am talking about. Because again, you are depending on the art of the dynastic kingdom to represent those hair styles which was not created by "Nubians". I see it as an evolution of the style of portrait painting that took place during the New Kingdom, which applies to all of those Africans of the Nile Valley and their hairstyles. Meaning the more elaborate details of the hair is being shown no matter who is wearing it and that doesn't prove where the style originated at all. It simply reflects an update to the cannon to depict these kinds of things more naturally.
If you disagree on that then fine, you are welcome to your opinion but don't sit here and throw around strawman arguments about "negrphobia" and "irrational" to try and make our points seem more valid.
Old Kingdom depiction of braided hair, very simplistic and blocky:
Another example for Djoser showing how the braids are depicted in a very stylized form ending sharply in a block with no attempt to realistically depict the ends of the braids: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Djoser_statue.jpg
Meaning we don't know for sure how those hairstyles actually looked in life from some of these old kingdom examples because the art is very stylized and not very realistic or natural looking in many cases. So for all we know the lappet ends could have existed but they didn't depict the endings versus showing them chopped off abruptly.
Middle Kingdom depiction of very detailed braids predating the New Kingdom, showing that elaborate braids did not come from "Nubian influence" in the New Kingdom. More than anything, it also shows a gradual evolution towards the more detailed and elaborate depiction of hair that didn't become more common until later eras.
quote: A literary text, The Prophecy of Neferti, is used to shed light on the beginning of the reign of Amenemhat I (Berman 1985, 19). The text, written in the Eighteenth Dynasty of the New Kingdom but set in the Fourth Dynasty reign of King Sneferu, describes a future in which the situation in Egypt will be a time of civil strife, disorder, and foreign invasion. “Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, by name, son of a woman of Ta-seti, child of Upper Egypt” (Lichtheim 1973, 143). The name Ameny is short for Amenemhat (Posener 1956, 22–23).
So I guess this is another example of a pharaoh depicting himself as a "Nubian commander" with a "Nubian Wig" in the Middle Kingdom.... Going by the nonsense logic you claim proves your point. LOL.
posted
^ Egyptology is a field of study comprised of individual scholars whatever beef you have traditional Egyptology with its racist past has nothing to do with the topic of this thread or as far as we know the Egyptologists featured.
Whatever attempt at racial separation you are seeing is obviously in your head, because none of the scholars deny that Egyptians were as African as the Nubians to their south. Apparently you seem to misinterpret any type of distinction between Kmt and Nhsi as racial when it is clearly just cultural. Yes Egyptians were culturally distinct from non-Egyptians even if they were fellow Africans like Nubians and Libyans. That does not make Egyptians less African so whatever paranoia trip your own leave me out of it!
As far as the 'Nubian' wig or hairstyle, what proof do you have that it didn't originate from Nubians?? It's pretty much a consensus in Egyptology that Nubian wigs were adopted by Egyptians during the Amarna period from Nubian soldiers and nobles who served in the royal court. Again how this an attack on Kmt's African identity? Can't an African people adopt the styles of another African people?? In fact if you saw the topic feature video, both Dr. Maitland and Dr. Ashby show many cultural items that originated in Nubia but which the Egyptians partake of.
Brooklyn Museum of Art Nefertiti here wears the so-called Nubian wig. Formerly this wig had been worn almost exclusively by Nubian soldiers serving in pharaoh's army. Nefertiti seems to have adopted it as her personal symbol. She popularized the Nubian wig to such an extent that both men and women frequently wore it at el Amarna.
Another example of style adoption would be the large shield-like earrings which was also originally a Nubian style but adopted by the 18th dynasty.
Again Kiya wearing a Nubian wig, but also note the earring she wears.
It bears a striking resemblance to the type of earrings found in Sai Island, Nubia as shown below.
Tiye's shield earring
So, I'm done arguing with you. If you want to be like Xyzman and go off in tangent about racist Egyptologists, then may I suggest you take it up with them.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Brooklyn Museum of Art Nefertiti here wears the so-called Nubian wig. Formerly this wig had been worn almost exclusively by Nubian soldiers serving in pharaoh's army. Nefertiti seems to have adopted it as her personal symbol. She popularized the Nubian wig to such an extent that both men and women frequently wore it at el Amarna.
________________________________
^^^Where is an image of a Nubian with this type of wig?
____________________________________
this. it seems to be be a variation of (?)
male and female variation, the female version comes to a point at the bottom of the sides
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Lioness I already posted a picture of Nubian men wearing that style of hair/wig. So for the sake of saving space and spam, I refer you to look back up. I think Doug has already taken us away from the actual topic long enough!
By the way, there is a difference between Nubians and other Sudanese were under Kushite hegemony.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Egyptology is a field of study comprised of individual scholars
Where did I say otherwise? And why are you using straw men to defend these scholars who I have never personally said anything bad about?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: whatever beef you have traditional Egyptology with its racist past has nothing to do with the topic of this thread or as far as we know the Egyptologists featured.
What does this have to do with "beef"? Since when has any thread on this forum that debates facts and information related to history and anthropology been about beefs? You are arguing a strawman. LIKE I SAID African history does not start with so-called "Nubia". And if anybody is going to talk about the history of "Nubia" as the beginning of advanced civilization in African history or on the Nile then I will disagree with them. I have stated this numerous times and somehow YOU seem to be offended by this for some dumb reason. It is a fact. That isn't irrational and the whole point here is that all of that history on the Nile is African history not simply so-called "Nubia". And if you think I am attacking any specific scholar, then you are wrong because I have threads going back many years on this forum saying the exact same thing. Not to mention I have been dealing with these debates on African history for many years and it isn't like I just came to these ideas yesterday.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Whatever attempt at racial separation
Another strawman not even addressing what I said. Obviously you are just really desperate to make something up to fight against instead of addressing the point. There was no "Nubia" before the Roman Era. I know a lot of people have a problem with that statement and I understand. But it is a fact. You haven't refuted the point that "Nubia" starting with Reisner and in Egyptology has been used as a synonym for African.
Then you posted some nonsense trying to defend yourself with no proof.
Such as:
quote: That's incorrect. The Egyptian word for 'south' is 'rshwt' (reshut). The term used for 'Nubians' is Nhsw (Nehesu) and their land Ta Nehesi which designated the region the Romans called 'Nubia'.
The term most often used for specific southern kingdoms was Ta Seti. And I provided the actual quote of the Prophecy of Neferti stating a king named Ameny would come from the South and restore the kingdom, obviously referring to Amenhemat. I posted his statues showing his hairstyles as African. So why doesn't Egyptology or Nubiology include him as "Nubian" or at the least black African, if what you are saying is valid? As for the word "Nehesy" it refers to names of specific individuals, not a place called "Ta Nehesy". And since you posted the term "Ta Nehesy" as an actual place, I think you need to check your sources because I have never seen such a place mentioned in any ancient text.
Not to mention where are the official Egyptology references calling the braided hairstyles of the old and middle kingdom "African braids"? Just do that and stop with these straw man arguments. Not to mention where and when has Egyptology suddenly started officially and publicly acknowledging the dynastic era as African? Still waiting for your evidence of this. They are still making reconstructions of King Tut for goodness sake trying to "reinterpret" the facts for a modern audience as anything but African. And I mean official statements or texts from actual people who are scholars within Egyptology not just some random web page on the net.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: you are seeing is obviously in your head, because none of the scholars deny that Egyptians were as African as the Nubians to their south. Apparently you seem to misinterpret any type of distinction between Kmt and Nhsi as racial when it is clearly just cultural. Yes Egyptians were culturally distinct from non-Egyptians even if they were fellow Africans like Nubians and Libyans. That does not make Egyptians less African so whatever paranoia trip your own leave me out of it!
And this is you pretending to speak for Egyptology when you don't. And if there is a debate at this point it is between me and YOU not me and Egyptology in general since YOU are the one pretending to represent their views on this subject (contrary to all the facts).
This is what Egyptology literally says about "Nubia" in today:
quote: The evidence for Nubians in Egypt may be divided into written sources and archaeological record: the human remains from the latter would provide the most direct or primary sources, but they have not been analysed in numbers or methods suitable for demographic studies.
The classic Middle Egyptian phase of the Egyptian language provides evidence for Egyptian attitudes to the inhabitants of lands immediately south of Egypt: there seem to have been two main words used, Nehesy (nHsy) for inhabitants of the river valley, and Medjay (mDAy) for a group or groups from the deserts east of the Nubian Nile Valley. This indicates the view from Egypt, as mediated through language: it is possible that it represents a simplifying generalisation for a more complex linguistic and ethnic map of Nubia.
The evidence for Nubians living in Middle Kingdom Egypt is open to several interpretations. The name Nehesy - 'Nubian' appears several times: does it refer to a Nubian, either born in Egypt or someone who changed their foreign name? Was it just a 'fashion' to call somebody 'Nubian' or was the child darker-skinned than usual so that the parents decided to give him that name? What does darker skin mean? This question leads to the modern debate over race in ancient Egypt.
Dark skinned people are sometimes depicted in Middle Kingdom art. It is again very difficult to draw any conclusion from this. It seems almost impossible to decide, whether these were Nubians or whether the dark skin is chosen for other reasons ('rebirth'). Further research is needed, with a comprehensive catalogue illustrated in colour for all examples of each period. For the Second Intermediate Period there is good evidence from material culture that inhabitants from the Nubian eastern desert settled in Egypt (pan-graves).
A key part to note is that even when the name "Nehesy" shows up even then they don't automatically assume that it means having so-caled "Nubian" ancestry. Which shows how inconsistent and arbitrary the usage of the term is. Otherwise if they were being consistent then the Middle Kingdom 12th dynasty would be called "Nubian" along with the beginning of the 18th dynasty and Ahmose Nefertari, but they dont because the usage of the term "Nubia" is always to separate the dynastic culture from Africa. Always has been and still is to this day.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: As far as the 'Nubian' wig or hairstyle, what proof do you have that it didn't originate from Nubians?? It's pretty much a consensus in Egyptology that Nubian wigs were adopted by Egyptians during the Amarna period from Nubian soldiers and nobles who served in the royal court. Again how this an attack on Kmt's African identity? Can't an African people adopt the styles of another African people?? In fact if you saw the topic feature video, both Dr. Maitland and Dr. Ashby show many cultural items that originated in Nubia but which the Egyptians partake of.
You haven't provided any proof. The burden is on you since you claim that this is valid and sound anthropology. I already made my point very clear. You are just stating the same thing with no real proof. Ultimately the problem here is that there are no ancient sources from other kingdoms or cultures on the ancient Nile documenting their hair styles or cultural traditions. You are depending on the art of the dynastic era to use as "proof" but that art was created by people of the dynastic kingdom and not so called "Nubians". My point is that as Africans, the dynastic kingdom ALWAYS wore African hairstyles common to other Africans on the Nile. There was never a time when they did not wear Afros, braids, locks and curls similar to other cultures on the Nile and in other parts of Africa. So what you see in the New Kingdom is just another example of a common pattern of African culture that was common between different groups of Africans. And to prove that it originated with so-called "Nubians" requires more than just artwork from the dynastic era. This is the kind of simplistic thinking that I am rejecting because it is stupid. Just like we will never know when the first braided hairstyle or Afro was worn, we will never know who or when the first so-called "lappet style" hair was worn either. These are simply African hairstyles that were common among different groups of Africans and it is impossible to say when or where something as ubiquitous as African braids originated just based on art work.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Nefertiti here wears the so-called Nubian wig. Formerly this wig had been worn almost exclusively by Nubian soldiers serving in pharaoh's army. Nefertiti seems to have adopted it as her personal symbol. She popularized the Nubian wig to such an extent that both men and women frequently wore it at el Amarna.[/i]
What soldiers and where? What tomb or temple are you referring to that shows this? And what makes these soldiers "Nubian" vs "Egyptian". This is the core problem with this line of reasoning and I really would like to see where this "evidence" is at. What sources are you using for this because if this is legit those images should still exist.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Another example of style adoption would be the large shield-like earrings which was also originally a Nubian style but adopted by the 18th dynasty.
Again Kiya wearing a Nubian wig, but also note the earring she wears.
It bears a striking resemblance to the type of earrings found in Sai Island, Nubia as shown below.
Again, as Africans the people of the Dynastic Era have ALWAYS been wearing African hairstyles. Just like they have always been wearing loin cloths. Just like they have always been using African pottery. This isn't something that they adopted from so-called "Nubia" in the New Kingdom. It goes all the way back to the beginning as part of the fundamental African origin of the entire culture. This line of reasoning is dumb and that is just how I look at it no matter who it is that is saying it. Nothing personal against you or anybody else but that is just dumb. Again, if that is the case and if these people were being consistent, then why is Amehemat not called "Nubian" along with the rest of the 12th Dynasty?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So, I'm done arguing with you. If you want to be like Xyzman and go off in tangent about racist Egyptologists, then may I suggest you take it up with them.
So you are saying you are on this forum because you agree with Egyptology and their positions and anybody who doesn't is somehow irrational? Seriously dude. Thats hilarious.
To the point of the thread, most of the Queens of the Dynastic Era were African Queens and if someone is saying something other than that then I will call it out.
Just provide the evidence of these "Nubian soldiers" that you keep referencing so we can actually get somewhere instead of dealing with your personal mission to tell me what to think. And if you want to open a new thread then fine. But I just want to show that what you are saying is absolute nonsense.
Here is an early New Kingdom depiction of the so-called "Nubian style" hair that shows an "intermediate" style of canon between the simplistic styles of the older eras and the elaborate detailed styles of later eras. Note how the lappets or layers of different length braids are shown in a very simplistic manner, with them flowing over the ear and the shoulders in an unnatural way similar to older portraits. This is from the reign of Amenhotep II or Thutmosis III, years before the Amarna period.
Note that during this era none of these groups whether so-called Nubians or people of the dynastic kingdom were shown with such elaborate braids because the canon hadn't evolved to show such things. And it only makes sense that this evolution peaked during the Amarna era, as a continuation of changes to the canon that occurred under Amenhotep III.
And the source you cited says the following:
quote: efore delving into the particular appearances at Medinet Habu, a brief examination of the history of the lappet wig is prudent. The development of this wig during the New Kingdom is somewhat unclear. A wig with a diagonal edge running from the back of the head down towards the front resulting in a short pointed lappet appears first on the king during the reign of Amenhotep II (K. Mysliwiec, Le portrait royal dans le bas–relief du Nouvel Empire (1976), figs. 101-105). A depiction from the tomb of Kenamun (TT 93) of a cult statue of the pharaoh as a Nubian commander shows him wearing the military costume of the region, including a cut leather apron and the short, valanced wig (C. Aldred, “Hairstyles and History,” BMMA 15.6 (1957), 142. N. de G. Davies, The Tomb of Ken-Amun at Thebes, (New York, 1930), pl. 11). This is also one of the earliest appearances of the shebyu-collar (See P. Brand, “The Shebyu-collar in the New Kingdom, part 1,” JSSEA 33 (2006), 22).
And none of the references on that page actually show any so-called "Nubians" wearing the hairstyle. So them calling it "Nubian" is simply arbitrary at best.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
I notice Doug keeps using this term "African", is it legit? Anyway, thought experiment, help me out on this, I'm not sure how to word it, about this Book of Gates scene How would you describe it in Doug approved terminology, what does it show and who is depicted on it? also considering what the actual text says, the words they use
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Different African cultures wore their hair in different ways, and sometimes hairstyles from one culture entered another. That shouldn't be a hard concept for you to grasp.
Different African cultures wore their hair in different ways, and sometimes hairstyles from one culture entered another. That shouldn't be a hard concept for you to grasp.
Notice, Djehuti has been making much reference to wigs, Doug has not. So it's not clear what is a wig and what is real hair as per who is talking about what
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ That's an irrelevant straw doll. Wig styles are hairstyles; that is, they are based on styling of hair growing on person's heads.
Doug keeps talking about "braids" but many of the hair/wig styles including the 'Nubian' or lappet-wing are actually not braids at all but curls or twists.
To Brandon, your statement is obviously not just factual but common sense but strangely Doug is beyond reason, making arguments based on nothing.
That said, I would like to continue with the actual topic.
There's an excellent paper on Ashayet identity and her relation to the other priestesses.
Discerning Ancient Identity: The Case of Aashyet’s Sarcophagus (JE 47267) by Kate Liszka (2018) Abstract Aashyet’s sarcophagus (JE 47267) offers a unique case for understanding how the intersection of a person’s identities, such as ethnicity, gender, age, or religion, is portrayed on a funerary object within the historic and religious circumstances of a specific context. Aashyet’s sarcophagus portrays her as a wealthy, elite priestess, and the head-of-household, while being a Nubian who celebrated her non-Egyptian origins. The sarcophagus’s archaeological context also demonstrates the importance of Priestesses of Hathor within Montuhotep II’s funerary complex at Deir el-Bahri for the legitimation of his kingship before he unified Egypt, late in his reign.
It is a very interesting read as well as review on how identity is expressed in archaeology. I used to think Ashayet was Medjay based simply on the fact that her Nubian handmaids were Medjay as well as the fact that Medjay were close allies and supporters of the 11th dynasty, not to mention that Ashayet is common name in modern Beja women. However, Dr. Ashby makes a compelling case that Ashayet and the other Nubian wives who were Hathor priestesses were C-Group as shown in her paper below.
posted
I wouldn't use that URL for here, but anyway
quote:Another aspect of Aashyet’s identity that scholars frequently debate is whether or not she and the other people on this sarcophagus are Nubians. The argument that they are Nubian is typically that Aashyet, as well as two other women identified as Medjay, are painted with black skin and short curly hair in contrast to other women depicted with the traditional yellow-painted skin and long black hair.65 Because the artist purposely juxtaposed the two sorts of women in same image, it is likely that skin color is a significant marker of non-Egyptian ethnicity in this case.66 Additionally, Ashyet’s name is written
phonetically and is not of Egyptian origin.67 Aashyet is likely of Nubian heritage, but she acculturated to Egyptian standards for art, religion, and the organization of her household. Yet at some level, because Aashyet also had a say in commissioning this sarcophagus, she took the opportunity to express her pride in her Nubian heritage. The emphasis on her non-Egyptian origins may be significant because of the cult of Hathor. As a Priestess of Hathor, a non-Egyptian origin would allude to the international journeys of the goddess. Aashyet was likely celebrated for being Nubian during the Hathoric rituals, and thus she chose to preserve this aspect of her identity in death as well.
~ Discerning Ancient Identity: The Case of Aashyet’s Sarcophagus (JE 47267) Kate Liszka
posted
^ If you remember, there are various Egyptian myths of Ra being angered with Egypt so his daughter Hathor leaves Egypt and sojourns south into Nubia where it is implied she taught sacred rites to the people there. Only after the people of Egypt repent she returns. Dr. Ashby as well as other scholars have noted that Lower Nubia was home to a cow goddess cult which was the equivalent of Hathor if not Hathor herself and this cult involved sacred dances. One of Hathor's titles is Nbt en or 'Lady of Dance', and it was during the Middle Kingdom that we see a surge in Hathoric rites such as the khener. What's interesting is that Ashayet and her Nubian cowives seem to make up a 9 member khener and that other than the title of king's wife all shared the title of 'Sole Ornament of the King'. Egyptologists are still unclear as to the meaning of that title but it may have had some religious as well as political significance.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Inner front side of the sarcophagus of Aashyet (facsimile by Charles K. Wilkinson)
quote:Another aspect of Aashyet’s identity that scholars frequently debate is whether or not she and the other people on this sarcophagus are Nubians. The argument that they are Nubian is typically that Aashyet, as well as two other women identified as Medjay, are painted with black skin and short curly hair in contrast to other women depicted with the traditional yellow-painted skin and long black hair.
~ Discerning Ancient Identity: The Case of Aashyet’s Sarcophagus (JE 47267) Kate Liszka
I notice that above she is painted very dark brown instead of the jet black of the two medjay women to the right. I can see her ear and hairline
Although she she is painted jet black according to a similar facsimile from a different side of the same sarcophagus:
posted
^ It's possible the difference was done to show an ethnic distinction between her and the Medjay women.
As Dr. Ashby points out, the specific Hathoric rites such as the tattoos, leather skirts, jewelry, mirrors etc. which Ashayet and her sistren were buried with were totally absent from the Medjay burials, but common in C-Group graves.
And to throw Doug a bone in regards to the topic of African Queens...
Of course they didn't accomplish this on their own but aided and abetted their men of their family. (perhaps feminist propaganda?)
In times of trouble, ancient Egypt often looked to its female rulers to restore and maintain power. From Hatshepsut to Cleopatra, women ruled, and ruled well, along the Nile. Some of the first wielded their power rebelling against a brutal occupation. These strong leaders came to power, helped drive out the invaders, and gave birth to a new, stronger dynasty.
Again, Egypt only turned to female rulers when there was no competent male of age. Which is why there were relatively few female rulers in Egyptian history, mostly regents and fewer sovereigns. The Hyksos Invade
Ancient Egypt fell to invaders in the late 18th century B.C., an event described by Egyptian scholar Manetho more than a millennium after it happened. Egypt had been conquered by invaders, a people Manetho called the heqa khasut, foreign rulers—a term that later evolved into the Greek “Hyksos.” Thought to originate from an area in modern-day Israel, the Hyksos arrived on the scene during Egypt’s 13th dynasty.
Egyptian rulers were able to hold them off until about 1650 B.C., when the Hyksos, growing more militarily powerful, captured the ancient royal city of Memphis in a decisive victory that brought Egypt’s Middle Kingdom to an end. Writing in the fourth or third century B.C., Manetho described how the Hyksos overwhelmed Egypt:
"Suddenly from the regions of the East, invaders of an obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. They easily seized it without striking a blow; and having over-powered the rulers, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility."
The Hyksos controlled the north, but a separate dynasty was growing in the south, centered in Thebes and guided by powerful queens. (See also: Archaeologists uncover more than 800 tombs from the Middle Kingdom.)
Last I checked Thebes at that time was guided by powerful kings supported by their queens.
The resistance Ruling Egypt as its 15th dynasty, the Hyksos occupied swathes of northern and central Egypt for the next century. Far to the south, however, parallel dynasties—the 16th and the 17th—were established, formed in part by the original rulers of that area, who saw themselves as the continuation of native Egyptian power.
The southern city of Thebes served as the base of the Egyptian challenge to the Hyksos. The city sat on the banks of the Nile, more than 400 miles south of the modern city of Cairo. The kings of the 16th dynasty survived as vassals of the Hyksos, but the 17th dynasty began to fight back with the help of three women, all queens of Thebes: Tetisheri, daughter Ahhotep, and granddaughter Ahmose Nefertari. (See these artifacts that honor Egypt's powerful queens.)
The contributions of these women are less well-known than the queens who follow, such as Queen Tiy (Amenhotep III’s wife) and Nefertiti. Because of these queens’ partnerships with their husbands and their ability to rule as regents, the Egyptians were able to strike back against the Hyksos and retake their cities in the north around 1521 B.C. After these three queens, a new kingdom would dawn, led by some of Egypt’s greatest pharaohs: Hatshepsut, Thutmose III, and Amenhotep III.
Yes, some accuracy for a change.
Making a matriarchy The Hyksos king Apophis I ruled the north from the city of Avaris in the Nile Delta. During this time, Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao II ruled in the southern, Theban lands. Seqenenre Tao launched a campaign to challenge the Hyksos rule and was backed by many, including his own mother, Queen Tetisheri.
The Stela of Ahmose from the Temple of Karnak depicts a king presenting offerings to his grandmother, Queen Tetisheri. Egyptian Museum, Cairo
A forthright, shrewd woman who wielded great influence over her son, Tetisheri was the matriarch of a great Egyptian family beginning with her son Seqenenre Tao and daughter Ahhotep, a woman whose long life was also destined to have a major impact on her nation. (Discover how ancient Egypt relied on female leadership in times of trouble.)
As was common royal practice for the time period, Ahhotep and Seqenenre Tao, sister and brother, married each other. Having inherited a decisive, tenacious spirit from Tetisheri, Ahhotep also supported her husband’s fight against the Hyksos occupation in the north. But his fight was to be short-lived. Seqenenre Tao died as a result of wounds received in battle with the Hyksos. Analysis of his mummy, found at Deir el Bahri in the 19th century and now held in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, shows that Seqenenre Tao’s skull bore signs of axe wounds in the neck and in the forehead as well as a shattered cheekbone. The impacts appeared to be have been inflicted by a narrow axe blade typical of the Hyksos. (Explore how priests and pracitioners made mummies in ancient Egypt.)
Despite the death of the king, the war against the Hyksos continued. The next king, Kamose—perhaps a son of Seqenenre Tao and Ahhotep—continued the rebellion against the Hyksos. Like his predecessor, Kamose would die on the battlefield just three short years after his accession.
Enter Queen Ahhotep His successor was Ahmose, the young son of Ahhotep and Seqenenre Tao II. Historians believe that Queen Ahhotep reigned as regent during this time since her son was too young to rule officially. Thebes needed strong leadership at this moment, and Ahhotep proved up to the challenge. Menaced by the Hyksos to the north, Ahhotep faced a threat from the south as well. Nubia had forged an alliance with Hyksos, creating a threat to Thebes on two sides. Already rattled by internal revolts, the queen was forced to reckon with problems on several fronts to defend the kingdom.
The details of Ahhotep’s regency are sketchy in places (and there is still considerable confusion over her and her son’s relationship with another queen named Ahhotep II). Evidence exists for the important role Ahhotep played in continuing with the anti-Hyksos campaign, even as Thebes faced dangers from the south. Military honors were found among her grave goods. A large stela in the temple at Karnak describes Queen Ahhotep’s significance:
"She governs vast numbers of people and cares for Egypt wisely; she has attended to its army; she has looked after it; she has forced its enemies to leave and united dissenters; she has pacified Upper and Lower Egypt and made the rebels submit."
The pharaoh also took the care to honor his grandmother Tetisheri by building a cenotaph to her in Abydos, the center of the cult of Osiris, the god of the afterlife.
By the time he was ruling as pharaoh, Ahmose was able to complete the campaigns started by his mother and others before her. Around 1521 B.C., he captured Memphis and the Hyksos stronghold of Avaris. With Ahhotep maintaining control in Thebes, Ahmose seized gold-rich territories in Nubia to the south, and then he returned north to drive the Hyksos from the Egyptian border, beyond the Sinai. After a century of turmoil, the first king of the 18th dynasty ruled, at last, over a reunited Egypt.
From queen to goddess Following tradition, Ahmose took his sister as his wife. Like the matriarchs preceding her, Queen Ahmose Nefertari was well prepared to rule because she had witnessed firsthand the hardships involved. As a young princess, she had witnessed her father’s death in the offensive against the Hyksos, her brother and husband’s ascension to the throne as a child, her mother’s regency, and her family’s victory over the foreign invaders.
This stela, which is now in the Egyptian Museum in Turin, Italy, belonged to the royal scribe Amenemope, and was found in his tomb at Deir el Medina. It depicts him and his son worshipping Deir el Medina’s deified patrons, Ahmose Nefertari and her son, Amenhotep I. It was created in the time of Ramses II, some two centuries after Amenhotep and Ahmose Nefertari’s deaths.
From her mother she inherited the strength and energy needed to rule as queen, supervising the transition to the period of peace and harmony from wartime. As an intimate counselor to her husband, Ahmose Nefertari played a leading political role in the building of a reunified Egypt during their son Amenhotep I’s reign, consolidating the family’s rise from a southern to a united dynasty. (Learn which other royal families practiced incest.)
Ahmose Nefertari came to play an important role in Egyptian religion. She was given the title “Wife of the God,” which reflected her privileged position among the priests of the god Amun in Thebes. Reflecting the rise in Theban influence, Amun—until then a regional deity—was becoming the most powerful god in the whole of Egypt. The bestowal of this title, confirming the queen’s political and religious power, is described on the so-called Donation Stela, which was erected in the Temple of Amun in Karnak.
The stela served as a legal document that established the role the queen was to play in the temple, together with a large donation of land and goods by Pharaoh Ahmose to the queen and her heirs. The function of the new title was priestly, which gave her high social standing and, more important, allowed her to participate in the lives of the gods, thus giving her divine protection against danger.
Ahmose Nefertari was also notably involved in monitoring and supervising construction. Her name is on texts recording the opening of mines and quarries, whose wealth would underwrite the achievements of the 18th dynasty. Together with her son Amenhotep I, she was traditionally regarded as the patron of what is today known as Deir el Medina, the village for craftsmen working on the construction of royal tombs in the Valley of the Kings.
In the course of her long life, she had witnessed the expulsion of the Hyksos and the reigns of many kings, including her grandson, Thutmose I. When she died, Egypt was plunged into a period of national mourning. Later, she was deified. She became the inspiration for later powerful women of the 18th dynasty, such as Hatshepsut, whose military exploits and cultural monuments mark one of the pinnacles in ancient Egypt’s long story.
Of course warrior queens and princesses are not uncommon in Africa; however, it's not exactly the Hollywood fantasy of "Woman King" or "Wakanda Forever" that some feminists wish it was. Women participated in warfare to what their capacity allowed. In terms of royal women particularly their role in warfare was one of command and strategy, and if or when they did enter the battlefield they accompanied men.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Different African cultures wore their hair in different ways, and sometimes hairstyles from one culture entered another. That shouldn't be a hard concept for you to grasp.
Multiple issues here and namely where is the proof of the influence coming from because all of the evidence is coming from the art of the dynastic era. There are no ancient art works or sculptures from other African kingdoms anywhere else on the Nile showing how they wore their hair at any point in the ancient dynastic era. So there is no absolute way of determining when and where a particular style of wearing African braids originated along the Nile by comparing the different artworks from different cultures and their art at different times to see when and where certain trends emerged.
Because the dynastic kingdom ALWAYS wore their hair in styles similar to other Africans because it is a common pattern of African culture along with the kilt/loincloth and sandals.
Case in point the statues of soldiers from the Tomb of Mesehti where you have both soldiers from the dynastic kingdom and others from farther south. They both wear similar costume and hair styles, with the hair of the Southerners looking no different than that seen in the art of the old kingdom. Both groups of soldiers have the exact same hairstyles and clothing, with the only difference being the coloring of the fabric and the coal black color of the Southerners. But more significant to this discussion is the simplistic way the dynastic artists portrayed the hair of both groups.
At issue here is that in many of these and other examples from the Old and Middle Kingdom, hair is often depicted as a generic "cap" on the head or, if they actually tried to show individual braids, generic blocks indicating braids or long thick strands coming out of the head or sometime simply etchings on the surface of the head to generally indicate the actual hair texture. This applies to all groups the same way. So because of that, you cannot really tell if those layers of braids as seen in the New Kingdom were worn because the artists never tried to portray hair in that level of detail, no matter who wore those hairstyles.
And ultimately this is why the issue is more of an evolution in how the artists of the dynastic era represented hair more than anything else. That is why I disagree with this simplistic line of thinking. The artists of the dynastic era always depicted the hair of both themselves and other Africans in a similar way and as they evolved their techniques you see a continuation of this pattern.
The evolution can seen earlier in the 18th dynasty under Amenhotep II and others, with no real proof of so-called "Nubian" origins.
A good example of this is the tomb of Sennefer and sculptures of him and his wife.
Sennefer in his tomb with his hair depicted as a generic blob similar to what is seen in other eras as part of the canon:
This is a very common pattern in the canon from the art that has survived from these eras.
And in the same tomb you also see examples of an attempt to actually portray individual braids as part of the generic portrayal of hair even if it still doesn't flow naturally across the shoulders. This is what I am calling a transitional style showing the generic outlines and shapes of prior eras, with more attempts to realistically depict individual braids or locs:
Another example of the generic style that was common where they used wavy lines to fill within the outline of the hair:
And finally we get to the full manifestation of the end result of this transition in canon in the tomb of Ramose in the later 18th dynasty during the reign of Amenhotep III and Akhenaton. The main thing to note here is the very detailed depictions of braids and the fact that the ends of the hair no longer disappear behind the shoulder and instead fall over the front.: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Reliefs_of_Tomb_of_Ramose#/media/File:Ramose-8d.jpg
And the larger issue is this idea that these so-called "Nubian" influences can be identified as isolated examples of African influence when the entire dynastic kingdom was African in origin to begin with. So all of these common patterns of African custom and tradition predate both KMT and so-called Nubia, especially things like hairstyles and other ubiquitous elements of culture.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lioness can you fix you pictures it's distorting the thread.
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That's an irrelevant straw doll. Wig styles are hairstyles; that is, they are based on styling of hair growing on person's heads.
Doug keeps talking about "braids" but many of the hair/wig styles including the 'Nubian' or lappet-wing are actually not braids at all but curls or twists.
To Brandon, your statement is obviously not just factual but common sense but strangely Doug is beyond reason, making arguments based on nothing.
That said, I would like to continue with the actual topic.
There's an excellent paper on Ashayet identity and her relation to the other priestesses.
Discerning Ancient Identity: The Case of Aashyet’s Sarcophagus (JE 47267) by Kate Liszka (2018) Abstract Aashyet’s sarcophagus (JE 47267) offers a unique case for understanding how the intersection of a person’s identities, such as ethnicity, gender, age, or religion, is portrayed on a funerary object within the historic and religious circumstances of a specific context. Aashyet’s sarcophagus portrays her as a wealthy, elite priestess, and the head-of-household, while being a Nubian who celebrated her non-Egyptian origins. The sarcophagus’s archaeological context also demonstrates the importance of Priestesses of Hathor within Montuhotep II’s funerary complex at Deir el-Bahri for the legitimation of his kingship before he unified Egypt, late in his reign.
It is a very interesting read as well as review on how identity is expressed in archaeology. I used to think Ashayet was Medjay based simply on the fact that her Nubian handmaids were Medjay as well as the fact that Medjay were close allies and supporters of the 11th dynasty, not to mention that Ashayet is common name in modern Beja women. However, Dr. Ashby makes a compelling case that Ashayet and the other Nubian wives who were Hathor priestesses were C-Group as shown in her paper below.
But that too is too broad a statement in the sense that there was a large number of different variations to that cattle complex across the Sahara, Sahel and Nile Valley. And specifically it is the predynastic traditions of Nabta Playa and earlier pastoral sites from the so-called "Nubian" region that likely gave rise to Hathor in the first place. But these people never say that because they focus on the later periods of history when the Dynastic culture imposed itself on the South during the Middle and New Kingdoms. These dancers didn't call themselves "Nubian" and neither did these middle kingdom queens, because Medjay, Kushites and other ethnic groups are different populations of Africans along the Nile and cannot be lumped together as one single group. Some fought as allies with the dynastic state and others fought against the dynastic state. What specific ethnic group is associated with these dancers from the ancient texts because that is a more significant factor in determining actual strategic and political relationships. And if those dancers aren't also Medjay why would a Medjay woman be closely associated to it as a so-called "Nubian"? This kind of piecemeal understanding is problematic and also shows the contradictory and inconsistent usage of the term "Nubia". Because if you really want to be consistent the entire 11th dynasty was of so-called "Nubian" origin, with Kings, Queens, priests, soldiers and priestesses. And that is before the rise of the 12 dynasty and the prophecy of Neferti that explicitly foretells of the rise of a Southern King from Ta Seti named Ameny, which would technically make that a "Nubian" dynasty. But these people are anything but consistent. So you got so called "Nubian" kings, queens, priestesses, dancers, soldiers and so forth and so on but they don't put 2+2 together and conclude the entire kingdom was therefore so-called "Nubian". Or in the cosmology of KMT the renewal of the Middle Kingdom was tied to the south in the people and traditions of the south from which the Kingdom arose to begin with.
In fact, there is a video below where they discuss the history of the Nile going back to the last wet phase and totally exclude the dynatic kingdom as having the same fundamental origins as so-called Nubia. They completely omit it all together and in fact claim that Hathor was basically an import over older local cow goddesses, totally and completely missing the point that Hathor is an African cow goddess originating in the same African cattle complex from the 8,000 years ago. It is impossible to talk about the history of the Nile going back 8,000 years and break it into Egypt vs so-called "Nubia". It doesn't make sense and here they are doing just that, which again proves the point that they are just following the pattern established by Reisner and others.
These dancers didn't call themselves "Nubian" and neither did these middle kingdom queens, because Medjay, Kushites and other ethnic groups are different populations of Africans along the Nile and cannot be lumped together as one single group. Some fought as allies with the dynastic state and others fought against the dynastic state. What specific ethnic group is associated with these dancers from the ancient texts because that is a more significant factor in determining actual strategic and political relationships. And if those dancers aren't also Medjay why would a Medjay woman be closely associated to it as a so-called "Nubian"? This kind of piecemeal understanding is problematic and also shows the contradictory and inconsistent usage of the term "Nubia". Because if you really want to be consistent the entire 11th dynasty was of so-called "Nubian" origin, with Kings, Queens, priests, soldiers and priestesses. And that is before the rise of the 12 dynasty and the prophecy of Neferti that explicitly foretells of the rise of a Southern King from Ta Seti named Ameny, which would technically make that a "Nubian" dynasty. But these people are anything but consistent. So you got so called "Nubian" kings, queens, priestesses, dancers, soldiers and so forth and so on but they don't put 2+2 together and conclude the entire kingdom was therefore so-called "Nubian". Or in the cosmology of KMT the renewal of the Middle Kingdom was tied to the south in the people and traditions of the south from which the Kingdom arose to begin with.
In fact, there is a video below where they discuss the history of the Nile going back to the last wet phase and totally exclude the dynatic kingdom as having the same fundamental origins as so-called Nubia. They completely omit it all together and in fact claim that Hathor was basically an import over older local cow goddesses, totally and completely missing the point that Hathor is an African cow goddess originating in the same African cattle complex from the 8,000 years ago. It is impossible to talk about the history of the Nile going back 8,000 years and break it into Egypt vs so-called "Nubia". It doesn't make sense and here they are doing just that, which again proves the point that they are just following the pattern established by Reisner and others.
@Djehuti
I notice that Doug uses the term "Africa". is that legit ?
Also "Egypt" is that legit?
what you could do, I think, is take a paragraph that has the word "Nubian" in it and see if a word can be replaced to satisfy Doug that would advance the discussion, proposing a solution, rather than going in circles
for example what would be a Doug approved description of the above several people in the scene?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Lioness, I'm not playing your silly petty game of pitting me against Doug, especially in something so inane as semantics.
Did the Egyptians have any concept of 'Africa' that is an entire continent?? If they did, I don't know what that word was.
As for 'Egypt' that is the name we use for their country though the term they used was Kmt.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: All of these traditions are connected as a result of the pastoral cattle complex that predates KMT and so called "Nubia".
But that too is too broad a statement in the sense that there was a large number of different variations to that cattle complex across the Sahara, Sahel and Nile Valley. And specifically it is the predynastic traditions of Nabta Playa and earlier pastoral sites from the so-called "Nubian" region that likely gave rise to Hathor in the first place. But these people never say that because they focus on the later periods of history when the Dynastic culture imposed itself on the South during the Middle and New Kingdoms. These dancers didn't call themselves "Nubian" and neither did these middle kingdom queens, because Medjay, Kushites and other ethnic groups are different populations of Africans along the Nile and cannot be lumped together as one single group. Some fought as allies with the dynastic state and others fought against the dynastic state. What specific ethnic group is associated with these dancers from the ancient texts because that is a more significant factor in determining actual strategic and political relationships. And if those dancers aren't also Medjay why would a Medjay woman be closely associated to it as a so-called "Nubian"? This kind of piecemeal understanding is problematic and also shows the contradictory and inconsistent usage of the term "Nubia". Because if you really want to be consistent the entire 11th dynasty was of so-called "Nubian" origin, with Kings, Queens, priests, soldiers and priestesses. And that is before the rise of the 12 dynasty and the prophecy of Neferti that explicitly foretells of the rise of a Southern King from Ta Seti named Ameny, which would technically make that a "Nubian" dynasty. But these people are anything but consistent. So you got so called "Nubian" kings, queens, priestesses, dancers, soldiers and so forth and so on but they don't put 2+2 together and conclude the entire kingdom was therefore so-called "Nubian". Or in the cosmology of KMT the renewal of the Middle Kingdom was tied to the south in the people and traditions of the south from which the Kingdom arose to begin with.
In fact, there is a video below where they discuss the history of the Nile going back to the last wet phase and totally exclude the dynatic kingdom as having the same fundamental origins as so-called Nubia. They completely omit it all together and in fact claim that Hathor was basically an import over older local cow goddesses, totally and completely missing the point that Hathor is an African cow goddess originating in the same African cattle complex from the 8,000 years ago. It is impossible to talk about the history of the Nile going back 8,000 years and break it into Egypt vs so-called "Nubia". It doesn't make sense and here they are doing just that, which again proves the point that they are just following the pattern established by Reisner and others.
Doug, most of what you say correct except again the concept of 'Nubia' did exist. Nubia was the name for a geographic region south of Egypt from the 1st cataract to the 5th or 6th. It wasn't a nation but a region comprised of various groups of peoples who were only unified under Kushite polities. Again, the name Egyptians used for Nubia as Ta-Nehesi and Nubians were Nehesu. The meaning of the term Nehes was discussed before and again, but the root word in the term is n'h which is hieroglyphically represented as a guinea fowl below.
We still don't know what exactly the word meant in context to the geographic areas or its peoples. But note that the label nehesi was often a prefix to the actual ethnic names listed as inhabitants there. As for the Nubian dancer-priestesses, I suggest you read Dr. Ashby's paper. She makes it clear that their tattoos and other items associated with the Hathor cult are found in C-Group culture NOT the Meday. The Medjay portrayed in Ashayet's sarcophagus were merely maidservants just like the Egyptian maidservants she had. But you are correct that there was indeed a cattle or cow cult in Nabta Playa west of Lower Nubian Nile Valley so that there was a shared tradition of a cow goddess is no surprise. As for the 11th dynasty being 'Nubian' too. Such an assumption is not too clear. What is known is that the 11th dynasty is Aswani from the Elephantine area. That area in particular is known to be inhabited by A-Group Nubians from predynastic times. So yes, in that sense they may very well have 'Nubian' ancestry but as Maria Gatto shows, the A-Group by the proto-dynastic times has been 'Egyptianized', although no doubt there were still relations going on with peoples south of the 1st cataract. Truth be told whatever 'Nubian' ancestry as recent as it may have been for the 11th dynasty king Senusworet, it didn't count for much when Nubians were trying to assassinate him, compelling him to fortify the southern border as well as checkpoints going into Nubia and making a decree that no Nehesi can cross the border except to do trade!
So in your desperate attempt to try to get rid of Eurocentric constructs or terminologies you seem to have forgotten that the Egyptians/Kmtwy had their own terms of ethnic and geographic distinctions.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just think Doug needs to supply us with terms that he approves of.
He shouldn't have a problem with "Kushites" so you could you that in addressing a Doug post or some other term when pertains, Medjay, etc.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: .
Did the Egyptians have any concept of 'Africa' that is an entire continent?? If they did, I don't know what that word was.
As for 'Egypt' that is the name we use for their country though the term they used was Kmt.
.
Did the Egyptians have any concept of an A-group or C-group? But you use 'em anyway.
They used Tawy and Ta mri much more than Kmt but you insist on Kmt exclusively.
posted
^ I don't insist on anything! I just use terms for convenience. If you notice more often than anything I just use the word 'Egyptian' as well as 'Nubian' simply out of habit. I don't pretend to be an Egyptian let alone an ancient one. If I knew the actual names of 'A-Group' and 'C-Group' I would use them. As far as A-Group or 'Qustul Culture' one probable name is Setiu as inhabitants of Ta-Seti (which ironically is the name of the 1st nome). As for C-Group, I don't have a clue unless you know of any.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic