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Originally posted by rasol:

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Tasmanians have been farther South than the Blombos Cave for much longer than 80,000 years.

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^

80 thousand years ago there were *no humans* living anywhere outside of Africa, and certainly not in Tasmania.

It has been established, through archaeological exploration, that Tasmania was first inhabited between 20000 and 30000 years ago - Tasmania and Victoria Australia By Michael Russell

Nice work. You've made a fool of yourself again.

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Originally posted by Supercar:
Better map than that from Mustafino...is this:



Better placement of tropic of Cancer, equator and tropic of Capricorn.

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Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                   

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

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Originally posted by rasol:

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Tasmanians have been farther South than the Blombos Cave for much longer than 80,000 years.

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^

80 thousand years ago there were *no humans* living anywhere outside of Africa, and certainly not in Tasmania.

It has been established, through archaeological exploration, that Tasmania was first inhabited between 20000 and 30000 years ago - Tasmania and Victoria Australia By Michael Russell

Nice work. You've made a fool of yourself again.

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Nice try. The first time you claim I made a mistake that I actually agree I wanted to say 40,000 according to what I had read. Still a hell of a long time, still farther south. And still not farhter away from the Equator than Carthage. But you latch on to that one mistake. Feel free to show when the earliest people arrived to North Africa. then tell me how light they are.

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Mustafino:

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Supercar:



Better placement of tropic of Cancer, equator and tropic of Capricorn.

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Not really same distances.

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The first time you claim I made a mistake that I actually agree

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I wanted to say 40,000

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Supercar writes: You do realize that the ancestors of contemporary Berbers in northwest Africa, came there fairly recently, ca. 2ky, they do however carry downstream paternal lineages of upper Paleolithic extraction.

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OH, i'm sure he understands every word of that....NOT.

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Take note that the "old Berber speaking" groups, like the Siwa, are actually heavily melanated, as are the Saharan groups. Coastal northwest African "Berber" groups, many of whom are swarthy looking, but nonetheless relatively paler than other groups below them, are an outlier, likely because of considerable Eurasian input...largely on the maternal side.

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Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Oh hogwash. I made one mistake,

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^ translation: you told another lie, and humiliated yourself again, so once again you reduce yourself to vulgarity which is your knee-jerk response to feelings of intellectual inadequacy.

too bad they don't make viagra for your soft head.

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You still haven't addressed the latitude similarity.

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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you made a mistake yourself

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i underestimated just how stupid you are.

we all did.

sorry, it won't happen again.

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Tasmanians have been farther South than the Blombos Cave for much longer than 80,000 years

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

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Supercar:

You do realize that the ancestors of contemporary Berbers in northwest Africa, came there fairly recently, ca. 2ky ago before present, and the oldest of these groups, are deemed to be amongst the Siwa group, ca. 5ky ago before present...don't you? Contemporary "Berber" groups carry few upper Paleolithic lineages [e.g. from the maternal side, the African U6 frequency is relatively low]; they do however carry downstream paternal lineages of upper Paleolithic extraction [i.e. E3b [E-M215] downstream lineages]. The ancestors of "Berber speaking" groups, are therefore apparently not the earliest people who arrived in North Africa.

Take note that the "old Berber speaking" groups, like the Siwa, are actually heavily melanated, as are the Saharan groups. Coastal northwest African "Berber" groups, many of whom are swarthy looking, but nonetheless relatively paler than other groups below them, are an outlier, likely because of considerable Eurasian input...largely on the maternal side.

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I was arguing that the distance was the same. According to Oppenheimer North Africa got populated at about the same time as Tasmania.

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Mustafino:

Feel free to show where in your map Tasmania is farther north than South Africa. Also feel free to show where Egypt is any closer to the Equator than Botswana.

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Posts: 5964 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mustafino:
What an internet chump. This must be your whole life.

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^ you're describing yourself, now go prove it by *photoshoping the evidence* of your - lack of a life - and then bring it back here and link us to it, so we can laugh at you some more...



^ Exactly how long did it take you to layer in those crooked lines and then paste in the mismatched photos, anyway?

Why don't you email your crap to Jablonski, so she can have a laugh too. haahaa...

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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You claimed it a straight line. Now you are claiming it a curve

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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^ JABLONSKI

From the reconstructions we have been able to do (using molecular and other
comparative data), darkly pigmented skin was the original state for all members
of the genus Homo (that is, for our lineage beginning about 2 million years
ago). It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably
much darker than a "medium hue" and **approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.**

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

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How does it help you that their color kept changing after they diverged? The question to you was where, in the statement you referenced above does Jablonski make a statement that the "common ancestor" was of "medium complexion"?

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Medium as in somewhere in between the two. As in both were changing and I doubt either change was drastically faster.

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This is descredited by Shriver: Note that we did not find many genes with signatures of natural selection on the West African branch and thus *no clear indication* that the West Africans have gotten darker since their separation from the East Asians and Europeans.

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Speculative, not a claim of fact, and he states that some where found, just not many, and still only addresses after OOA. Nor does it prove that all Africans were darker at the time.

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From the reconstructions we have been able to do (using molecular and other comparative data), darkly pigmented skin was the original state for all members of the genus Homo (that is, for our lineage beginning about 2 million years
ago). It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably much darker than a "medium hue" and approached those seen in equatorial Africa
today.

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Another possible interpretation:

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(1) When Jablonski wrote: "...positive selection to maximize the
melanin content of their skin since they diverged from Khoi San
stock," she was suggesting that the common ancestor's skin tone was between Bantu and Khoisan.

(2) When Jablonski wrote, "...much darker than a medium hue..." she was suggesting that they were much darker than Arabs, Berbers, or Afghanis (who are "medium hue" between Bantu and Norwegian). That is what most Europeans mean when they say "medium hue."

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I highly doubt that Djehuti told her that we were speaking medium between KhoiSan and Bantu. But either way, even if she did believe the common ancestor "approached" (Which is not the same as being the same color so still lighter) Bantu coloration, she has given no explanation that makes sense as to why the KhoiSan would have lightened so much. Going South?
The latitude is no farther away from the equator than Aborigines, dark skinned Dravidians in Bangladesh, or Dark skinned Oromo in Egypt. Let alone the Dark Tasmanians which were further south still. Neither has she shown evidence of any type that the Sandawe are a back migration from down South.

Even in the least solar exposure months, The Kalahari recieves more solar radiation than those other latitudes.



So much for the KhoiSan got significantly lighter because of lack of light exposure. Of course if we make that argument, we can also argue the original Egyptians were lighter as well. Same distance from the equator.

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There are many SAN who are already *darker* than the 'contrived medium' you propose.

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Sure, but not the one you showed. Who said all San had to be lighter than the medium?

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Does not change any of the FACTS presented about dark (brown) skin being the common color (range of color) among Africans and the original condition for all humanity.

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Agreed.

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This isn't quite true either.
Black is a social label that has everything to do with dark coloration of skin.

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Not really.

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As i've pointed out before - color is largely and illusion.

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Not an illusion. It is perception; the mind interpreting cues based on the wavelengths of light it receives.

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In physics there are only two general references to visible color - red and blue.
Reddish light has long wavelength.
Blueish light has short wavelength.

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Spectral colors

The familiar colors of the rainbow in the spectrum – named for the Latin word for appearance or apparition by Isaac Newton in 1671 – include all those colors that can be produced by visible light of a single wavelength only, the pure spectral or monochromatic colors. The color table at right shows approximate frequencies (in terahertz) and wavelengths (in nanometers) for various pure spectral colors. The wavelengths are measured in vacuum (see refraction).

The color table should not be interpreted as a definitive list – the pure spectral colors form a continuous spectrum, and how it is divided into distinct colors is a matter of culture, taste, and language. A common list identifies six main bands: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet. Newton's conception included a seventh color, indigo, between blue and violet – but most people do not distinguish it, and most color scientists do not recognize it as a separate color; it is sometimes designated as wavelengths of 420–440 nm. The chart shown here, however, does identify a seventh main color band: cyan, located between green and blue.

The intensity of a spectral color may alter its perception considerably; for example, a low-intensity orange-yellow is brown, and a low-intensity yellow-green is olive-green.

As discussed in the section on color vision, a light source need not actually be of one single wavelength to be perceived as a pure spectral color.

The color of an object depends both on physics and on perception. Physically, surfaces can be said to have the color of the light reflecting off them, which depends on the spectrum of the incident illumination and on the reflectance spectrum of the surface, as well as potentially on the lighting and viewing angles. However, a viewer's perception of the object color depends not only on the reflected light spectrum, but also on a host of contextual cues, such that an object's color tends to be perceived as relatively constant, that is, relatively independent of the lighting spectrum, viewing angle, etc. This effect is known as color constancy.

* Opaque objects that do not reflect specularly (which tend to have rough surfaces) have their color determined by which wavelengths of light they scatter more and which they scatter less (with the light that is not scattered being absorbed). If objects scatter all wavelengths, they appear white. If they absorb all wavelengths, they appear black.

* Opaque objects that specularly reflect light of different wavelengths with different efficiencies look like mirrors tinted with colors determined by those differences. An object that reflects some fraction of impinging light and absorbs the rest may look black but also be faintly reflective; examples are black objects coated with layers of enamel or lacquer.

The ability of the human eye to distinguish colors is based upon the varying sensitivity of different cells in the retina to light of different wavelengths. The retina contains three types of color receptor cells, or cones. One type, relatively distinct from the other two, is most responsive to light that we perceive as violet, with wavelengths around 420 nm. (Cones of this type are sometimes called short-wavelength cones, S cones, or, misleadingly, blue cones.) The other two types are closely related genetically and chemically. One of them (sometimes called long-wavelength cones, L cones, or, misleadingly, red cones) is most sensitive to light we perceive as yellowish-green, with wavelengths around 564 nm; the other type (sometimes called middle-wavelength cones, M cones, or misleadingly, green cones) is most sensitive to light perceived as green, with wavelengths around 534 nm.

Light, no matter how complex its composition of wavelengths, is reduced to three color components by the eye. For each location in the visual field, the three types of cones yield three signals based on the extent to which each is stimulated. These values are sometimes called tristimulus values.

Black is the shade of objects that do not reflect light in any part of the visible spectrum.

Scientifically black is not a hue (color); a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them, this is sometimes confused with black being called 'a mixture of all colors' but that is not the case. Sometimes black is described as an "achromatic color"; in practice black can be considered a color, e.g., the black cat or black paint.

Black can be defined as the visual impression experienced in directions from which no visible light reaches the eye. (This makes a contrast with whiteness, the impression of any combination of colors of light that equally stimulates all three types of color-sensitive visual receptors.)

Pigments that absorb light rather than reflect it back to the eye "look black". A black pigment can, however, result from a combination of several pigments that collectively absorb all colors. If appropriate proportions of three primary pigments are mixed, the result reflects so little light as to be called "black".

This provides two superficially opposite but actually complementary descriptions of black. Black is the lack of all colors of light, or an exhaustive combination of multiple colors of pigment.

Technically speaking, white is not a color at all, but rather the combination of all the colors of the visible light spectrum. It is sometimes described as an achromatic color, like black.

As a misnomer, however, white is the color of things that reflect light of all parts of the visible spectrum equally and are not dull .

The color has high brightness and has no hue. The impression of white light can be created by mixing, via a process called additive mixing, appropriate intensities of the primary color spectrum: red, green and blue, but it must be noted that the illumination provided by this technique has significant differences from that produced by incandescence.

Brown, when used as a general term, is a color which is a dark orange, red or rose, of very low intensity.

Some pale orange and yellow colors of lower saturation are called light browns.

Brown paint can be produced by adding black or their complementary colors to rose, red, orange, or yellow colored paint. As a color of low intensity it is a tertiary color in the original technical sense: a mix of the three subtractive primary colors is brown if the cyan content is low. Brown exists as a color perception only in the presence of a brighter color contrast: orange, red, or rose objects are still perceived as such if the general illumination level is low, despite reflecting the same amount of red or orange light as a brown object would in normal lighting conditions.
Brown Shades comparison chart

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Before physics it was also observed that if you took long wave length, short wave length and intermediate wave length light....you could create any colore illusion.

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Not an illusion. Just perception. The types of wavelengths and intensity the eye is receiving. Color is the interpretation of the object or space viewed and how it interacts with light.

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Note: Black and White are in this respect....not even colors at all.

Absolute black can be acheived into two ways:

1) when there is no photon [light] energy - there is pitch black. [note: not as simple as you think, because heat is a form of electromagnetic energy - and thus infrared light can be seen which means that and object giving off heat is not absorbing all light even it what we commonly call *pitch black* conditions]

2) when light energy is absorbed then there is blackness by degree. the more efficent the absorbtion the more 'black' the result. Technically you can only acheive absolute black by absorbing all light energy and no human pigment does that.

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You got that right.

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A final fact about: EuMelanin, which actually relates to why 'black' is a common ethnic term, and brown or yellow and red are not as common.

EuMelanin *is* a black pigment which is very common in nature. A ravens feathers have melanin. Melanin means black because Eu-melanin is *nearly* absolute black. [there is also a reddish phaeo-Melanin which plays a role in reddishness]

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Is it?

Just looks like very dark pigmentation. And then you have skin color itself without the melanin. See, your skin color is not just melanin, but melanin combined with its casing. Which skin tends to be of a pinkish rose color.

Now class, repeat after me "Brown, when used as a general term, is a color which is a dark orange, red or rose" Oh yeah a dark pinkish color. Oh wait. That is brown.

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Black Eu-Melanin does not vary in color. It only varies in amount.
The color that you achieve in skin, scales or feathers that have melanin depend upon how much melanin is present, and what else it is mixed with.

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And what material surrounds it.

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When we talk about people having brown or yellow or red skin, we are really discussing nearly white - semi translucent skin, with red blood tinting it from underneath the surface [which causes pinkish coloration], and black melanin pigment in variant degrees coating it.

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Class repeat after me "Brown can be produced by adding black or their complementary colors to rose, red, orange, or yellow."
Oh, wait, that pinkish skin becomes brown?

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Traditionally human cultures have not known how skin color works - but intuitively many cultures have understood that blackness exists and as darkening process that would approach though seldom acheive and absolute.

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More like intuitively, they understood, the variations of red between white to black (pink to brown)

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This is why many shades of darkness have come to be known as black.

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Hardly. They just are comparing darkness with darkness. But when something is not dark, they consider it brown.

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And it's why the word we use for skin color 'melanin' means black, and meant it even before anyone 'knew' how melanin worked.

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melanos meant both black or dark colored. Not just Black.
Furthermore

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Broadly, melanin is any of the polyacetylene, polyaniline, and polypyrrole "blacks" and "browns" or their mixed copolymers. The most common form of biological melanin is a polymer of either or both of two monomer molecules: indolequinone, and dihydroxyindole carboxylic acid. Melanin exists in the plant, animal and protista kingdoms, where it serves as a pigment. The presence of melanin in the archaea and bacteria kingdoms is an issue of ongoing debate amongst researchers in the field.

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In terms of human pigmentation there is little logical distinction between illusions of brown and black.

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Black, no hue. Brown, reds and yellows in the darker spectrum. One is on the money, the other is not.

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Whether you like it, or not, that is reflected in the reality of the general use of the term black to describe dark skinned peoples.
That's why the AE used the term that way - that's the way most cultures who have used the term black have used it throughout history.

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You have yet to show someone that was a lighter shade of brown calling themselve Black. The great Black Kemwer is depicted as Black. The lady Kemsit is depicted as Black. Where are your depictions of the medium Blacks being called Black?

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Yonis: Did you know that many AE dictionaries have no word for 'brown'?

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But they did for red and yellow. A dark red or yellow person would be brown. Now if they got so far as to almost show no hue, then they would be black.
By the way, many of the gods were depicted as yellow.

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This doesn't mean there isn't one - but brown was simply not very important to the AE.
They saw the world differently than you.

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And different than you as well.

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indeed

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Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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^ JABLONSKI

From the reconstructions we have been able to do (using molecular and other
comparative data), darkly pigmented skin was the original state for all members
of the genus Homo (that is, for our lineage beginning about 2 million years
ago). It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably
much darker than a "medium hue" and **approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.**

---

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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^ JABLONSKI

From the reconstructions we have been able to do (using molecular and other
comparative data), darkly pigmented skin was the original state for all members
of the genus Homo (that is, for our lineage beginning about 2 million years
ago). It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably
much darker than a "medium hue" and **approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.**

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^ If she can't educate you, then neither can we,

This means you're doomed to live out your life as and idiot who can't even draw a straight line with photoshop, much less understand anthropology or history. And so the case is closed. Sorry.

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Tell that to Loring Brace

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^ JABLONSKI

From the reconstructions we have been able to do (using molecular and other
comparative data), darkly pigmented skin was the original state for all members
of the genus Homo (that is, for our lineage beginning about 2 million years
ago). It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably
much darker than a "medium hue" and **approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.**

---

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

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Mustafo says:

What an internet chump. This must be your whole life.

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^ you're describing yourself, now go prove it by *photoshoping the evidence* of your - lack of a life - and then bring it back here and link us to it, so we can laugh at you some more...

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Of course, you noticed too Rasol. LOL

Mustafo's picture spamm:


The unsually light ones he 'thinks' are Sandawe!


^What he believes to be average color for Africans and the original color for the first humans!




Series of tropical latitudinal ranges, including a sloppy photo shop version-- the first one


Close up of actual Khoisan complexions(?)!


Melanin?


An albino and..?

It's official! Mustafo's silly negrophobic bias has become an obsession, one that has consumed him enough to make time to use photo shop to create these silly unintelligent picture spamms!

Is it me, or are his pictures strikingly similar to those of Marc Washington!!

Marc and Mustafo-- 2 idiots who who post silly pictures for their just as silly propagandas!

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

LMAO. Tell that to Loring Brace every time you argue about his conclusions. He is an expert as well. Rasol the hypocrite. Always so amusing.

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Mark Shriver is also an expert. In Genetics. And he stated that there was insufficient evidence right now to make a determination. Nice try though

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Of course, Jablonski said it herself: It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably much darker than a "medium hue" and **approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.**

And even Shriver agrees with that assessment. Unless you want me to email him too!

You have been debased enough.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by rasol:
Why, Brace does not disagree with Nina Jablonski on the history of skin color, and niether does Kittles nor Shriver.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
It's official! Mustafo's silly negrophobic bias has become an obsession, one that has consumed him enough to make time to use photo shop to create these silly unintelligent picture spamms!
Is it me, or are his pictures strikingly similar to those of Marc Washington!!
Marc and Mustafo-- 2 idiots who who post silly pictures for their just as silly propagandas!

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Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

LMAO. Tell that to Loring Brace every time you argue about his conclusions. He is an expert as well. Rasol the hypocrite. Always so amusing.

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Your "laugh" must be empty and a way to cope with your humiliation, as Rasol says it's not like Brace disagrees with Jablonski.

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Mark Shriver is also an expert. In Genetics. And he stated that there was insufficient evidence right now to make a determination. Nice try though

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Of course, Jablonski said it herself: It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably much darker than a "medium hue" and **approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.**

And even Shriver agrees with that assessment. Unless you want me to email him too!

You have been debased enough.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

Mustafo [salsassin] - "I'm and idiot. Someone slap me please!!!"


by...


Dr. Jablonski,...[sure, I'll slap you like you stole something]

and everyone else with intelligence on this thread

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Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

Nice try. Shriver didn't disagree, but he did say the evidence was inconclusive.

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And your rants about Brace are well known.

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Speak of your one stupidity hypocrite.

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Talk about projection!

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Nice try. My pictures speak for themselves.

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No racial claims.

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And I’m not the one posting 10 posts a day here for over 2 years.

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Feel free to email Shriver.

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Are you sure you want me to do that?! As I said, you have been debased and humiliated enough.

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Indeed, which is where folks like Jablonski come in.

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Unlike you, Rasol does no "rant" about anything. He merely pointed out the inconsistencies (inacuracies) in Brace's past claims. Brace makes these corrections in recent publications. Even one our resented posters emailed Brace about it and he acknowledged it. You my mixed-up friend are a long way from achieving such a thing! LOL

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Then their 'speech' is as intelligible and moronic as you.

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You must not certainly be referring to ME. As everyone else on this forum knows I do not post here that often and I haven't even posted here for months, let alone post silly pasted and edited pictures from photoshope! LMAO That's cuz unlike you, I have a life.

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Are you sure you want me to do that?! As I said, you have been debased and humiliated enough.

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Posts: 354 | From: Atlanta, GA | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mustafino:

Hardly. She stated an opinion, not a fact. But you would be to stupid to realize that. Go bitchslap yourself.

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ROTFL

I'm sorry, but I doubt her claims which are based on years of research and analysis could be called mere "opinion". As for the rest of your comments, I say you project too much. No need to bitchslap yourself when everyone else has already!

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Nice try. It is no different than me pointing out the parts I disagree with. And Brace has not changed his opinion on Egypt to say they all looked "Black." Try again.

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More like they were in your face and you couldn't address them.

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There is a reason why you only stick to this forum, You have your peanut gallery. You wouldn't survive on another.

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9.something post a day since you joined. Round it up. If you don't post by season it only means you post that much more when you come back on.

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And? At least what I post is logical and makes sense-- contributing to this forum, unlike you. And I don't make idiotic picture spams

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Only in you and your peanut gallery's minds.

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Go right ahead.

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You must be a glutton for punishment! LOL

Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Dark skin evolved pari passu with the loss of body hair and was the original state for the genus Homo. - Nina Jablonski. Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 33: 585-623

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Several tests of neutrality of the MC1R coding region in these and other African populations were significant, suggesting that purifying selection (functional constraint) had occurred at this gene locus in Africans. This demonstrates that although some nonsynonymous MC1R mutations are tolerated in individuals with dark skin, this gene has likely played a significant role in the maintenance of dark pigmentation in Africans. –Kittles and Jablonski

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We suggest that adaptive evolution for dark skin MC1R alleles ensued when humans first became hairless savannah-dwellers [1.2 million] years ago.
The level of neutral MC1R variation among African humans provides the lower bound for this event. Alan Rogers

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Jablonski later states:
It is important to distinguish between the skin color of the earliest members of the hominid lineage who lived about 6 myr ago, and the earliest members of the genus Homo who lived about 2 myr ago. The skin color of the former was relatively light, as in most other catarrhine primates, and covered with dark hair.

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When most body hair was lost, about 2 myr ago, strong positive selection for higher concentrations of protective melanin pigmentation brought about the evolution of darkly pigmented skin.

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The Khoi San of southern Africa and related Sandewe people of Tanzania originally evolved in southern Africa, under reduced UVR conditions (as compared to the equator) and have predictably lighter skin.

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There is some evidence to indicate that Bantu language group speakers living in equatorial latitudes have undergone continued positive selection to maximize the melanin content of their skin SINCE they diverged from Khoi San stock.

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The exact coloration of the common ancestor of these two main living lineages of African peoples is not certain, but is probably darker than the Khoi San.

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Thanks for your note. Frank has some good points. Clearly more work needs to be done on the variation within continents in particular Africa. We do have one recent paper that shines some light on these questions (see attached McEvoy, Beleza & Shriver, 2006). Note that we did not find many genes with signatures of natural selection on the West African branch and thus no clear indication that the West Africans have gotten darker since their separation from the East Asians and Europeans. This fact, although interesting in and of it's own, does not address the issue of the lighter skinned African populations. Good questions, clearly, but there is not data yet to even let us speculate intelligently.

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I don’t want to misconstrue you. You are stating that the ancestors of the Khoisan and the Bantu where somewhere in-between in complexion and the KhoiSan got lighter and the positive selection of the Bantu lead to even darker people. In other words both changed in opposite directions?

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Yes, the populations changed because of the regions in which they lived. Those living closer to the equator were subjected to more UVR, and evolved darker skin.

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Djehuti:
I am a student who has some interest in anthropology, and have emailed you in the past concerning human origins in Africa. I would like to know if that if humans originated from the tropics of Africa does that mean they were 'black'?
One reason why I ask is because an associate said they were not but of a "medium hue". Although he does not specify what that is, I am to assume that it would be similar to say Native Americans of the tropics (?). How true is this??

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Nice leading question. I never used the Native American example. Most American and Europeans think of Native Americans like this:

Hardly the medium complexion I spoke of. Nowhere near the median I described between say a KhoiSan and a Dinka. By Djehuti’s leading question it sounds like I said that they could only have been as dark as that native. Which is false. I just stated there is no proof they were all as dark as this:

To which Jablonski responds:

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From the reconstructions we have been able to do (using molecular and other comparative data), darkly pigmented skin was the original state for all members of the genus Homo (that is, for our lineage beginning about 2 million years ago).

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It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was, but it was probably much darker than a "medium hue" {Djehuti's strawman set up} and approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.

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Originally posted by legeonas:
Dark skin evolved pari passu with the loss of body hair and was the original state for the genus Homo. - Nina Jablonski. Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 33: 585-623

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One, Jablonski does not address that there are apes with body hair that have various ranges of skin color, from the Chimpanzee to the Orangutan to the Gorilla and the Bonobo (All tropical).

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Originally posted by legeonas:
Two, she states dark skin to which people? Relative to what? Her European complexion? You bet. Where they darker than your median African complexion? I don’t know. But neither do any of you. Nor dies the evidence give any definitive proof.

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Originally posted by rasol:
^ Your post is really redundant and only rehashes what we've already been thru, but since you're too lazy to read apparently...

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What about them? Why does she need to *address* your non-sequitor distractions?

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Originally posted by rasol:
The above hard-headedness is characteristic of trolls who don't like the answer....and so try to *argue* based on pretending not to hear it.

Jablonski has made the answer to the question of what she means by dark skin perfectly clear..... it approached those seen in equatorial Africa today.

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We suggest that adaptive evolution for dark skin MC1R alleles ensued when humans first became hairless savannah-dwellers [1.2 million] years ago.
The level of neutral MC1R variation among African humans provides the lower bound for this event. Alan Rogers

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legolas: One there is a dispute that hairiness meant light skin. Or that lack of it meant the darkest skin either.

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Jablonski later states:
It is important to distinguish between the skin color of the earliest members of the hominid lineage who lived about 6 myr ago, and the earliest members of the genus Homo who lived about 2 myr ago. The skin color of the former was relatively light, as in most other catarrhine primates, and covered with dark hair.

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legolas: Disputable. As seen by our closest relatives the higher apes.

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The Khoi San of southern Africa and related Sandewe people of Tanzania originally evolved in southern Africa, under reduced UVR conditions (as compared to the equator) and have predictably lighter skin.

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There is no evidence that the Sandawe evolved in southern Africa

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Sandawe are very dark compared to Southern African Khoisan skin, so what is your point.... (?)


Sandawe

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Originally posted by rasol:
Again you *completely miss the point* made by the geneticists, because you are so blindly opposed out of emotion to what the scientists are saying.

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Human beings have dark skin because we have gene that produces Melanin called M1CR - this gene evolved 1.2 million years ago in conjuction with the loss of body hair.

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When this gene is free of disabling mutations the result is dark skin.

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Europeans have recent mutations on this gene that impairs its melanin producing ability.
This is what *causes them* to have fair skin.

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This is why geneticist [ALL OF THEM] agree that dark skin was the original state of hominids, and pale skin is a recent development.

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You are not really engaging the geneticists findings [because you don't understand them?], you are just arguing in frustration and without

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Originally posted by rasol:
Another empty non-sequitur remark.

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Please present the work of and actual scientist who disputes Harding, Shriver, Kittles, Rogers, and Jablonski and not just your own unsubstantiated and scientifically illiterate claims please.

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Do not repeat the word *disputable* in another post until you establish a scholarly basis for disputation.

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Originally posted by rasol:
Sandawe are very dark compared to Southern African Khoisan skin, so what is your point.... (?)

Sandawe

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Originally posted by rasol:
Again you *completely miss the point* made by the geneticists, because you are so blindly opposed out of emotion to what the scientists are saying.

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legolas: False. stick to the evidence if you can.

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