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Author Topic: Black land or black people
mentu
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The argument is that kemet means 'black people' although euros maintain it means 'black land', however ancient kemetans used determinatives to indicate the exact meaning of words, and the word 'kemet' has no determinative of land,a drawing of a man and a woman is idicated.

For those who have a deeper knowledge of medu neter,where did euros get the land issue?

Is there any word in medu neter with indicating determinatives of land and people on the same word to indicate 'black people of the black land'.Hence euros clinging to this definition?

I will appreciate your input.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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no egyptologist that I have ever read maintains it means "black people." Perhaps you can point one out to us that does.
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Brada-Anansi
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Diop^^
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TheAmericanPatriot
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IF he said that he is in the minority.
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Brada-Anansi
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Minority or not he was an Egyptologist.Also in Hebrew Kham means black,in medu-ntr kem means black.
Ask Any of the language expert on campus and see what they say....ps don't try to lead them just ask them.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Shedden and the guys at the University of memphis say it is 'Black land." Also, just finished Tutankhamun's Armies (a good book, it's cheap on Amazon) and they say "Black Land" as well. Frankly I have always seen it referred to as black land until a few years ago when the radical afrocentrics came along.
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Whatbox
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Everyone knows "kem" = "black". A "kem" cat would be a "black" one.

The contention today's mainstream European 'egyptomania' has is what the name of the state Km.t "signified".

Km = black

Km.t = black

.t denotes femininity and/or plurality

Km.t [nwt] (the name for the state of Dynastic Keme) = black community/city

Rm = man

yw = people

Rm.t = men

When

Km.t rm.tyw is written it means "ancient egyptians" or black men of men

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TheAmericanPatriot
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really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.

Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.

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Ebony Allen
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Yet you clearly give much though to race yourself or you wouldn't be on here arguing with facts.
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TheAmericanPatriot
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I do not argue with facts when I am presented with them. Ebony, if you were objective you would look at the subject from both sides.
Why do people say it means "black soil?"

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Serpent Wizdom
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why would the ancient kemite use the words meaning "black" to indicate soil? was the soil actually black or what? why would they put people in the same reference to "black" in their hieroglypics? people who think they were talkin about black land, what are your sources to prove this?

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Occupation: TRUTH!!

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Serpent, why? maybe you are not asking the right questions? the point is this, most egyptologist say they meant black soil. If you email top egyptologists that is what they will tell you. Perhaps you should do so.
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Djehuti
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Mentu, to answer your question, the word for land is 'Ta' which I believe is indicated by a symbol for terrain. 'Kemet' of course has no determinative and instead shows people. As Whatbox correctly shows, the suffix 'et' is a feminine used for plurality of a people. Hence 'Rmt' means people in general but RtnaRmt means something like 'Men of men' (interestingly a title used by many African groups including in nearby Sudan) or 'Kmt' which means 'blacks' (black people).

People like the professor can talk about "land" or "soil" all they want but the Mdu-Neter is clear on the issue.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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well genius, black soil it will be. You and I both know that egyptologists see it that way.

You know Djehuti there is a reason why we have only a handful of scholars cited on this board. The top historians do not agree with you guys and these trips you take to Neptune and back.

We have thread after thread on ancinet greece but never have I heard the name of Donald Kagan mentioned? Why is that? I'll tell you why. You know that the top historians are not going to agree with this pseudo-political history you folks try to practice.

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Djehuti
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^ Obviously you either have poor reading comprehension OR as usual you ignored the valid linguisitic and scholarly FACT I just pointed out. There are actually many Egyptologists from like Shaw, Lesko, etc. etc. who acknowledge this basic FACT-- NO soil or land determinative used at all the symbols for Kmt are black coal for Kem and the symbol for people. Thus Kmt means black people or literally blacks. You or these vague Egyptologists you speak of cannot escape from the fact that there is no symbol or word for "soil" or land in the word Kmt. So really there is nothing for you to SPIN, 'professor' [Wink]
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Wally
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Catechism: "The Egyptians called their country Kemet or Black after the color of the soil."

Western Egyptology contrived this deception from Herodotus, “Egypt is a land of black soil…We know that Libya is a redder earth.” (Herodotus, The History, book 2:12); conveniently ignoring the fact that he also mentioned that the Egyptian people were black as well. So, to anyone not familiar with the Ancient Egyptian language, this "Kemet = black soil" may seem plausible. It is not.

Here's the Mdu Ntr - Understanding Kmt

Km (to be black) used as an adjective
km;kmem;kmom - black
kemu - black (m)
keme.t - black (f)
> hime.t keme.t - "black woman"
> himu.t keme.t - "black women"

Km used as a noun
keme.t - any black person, place, or thing
A determinative is used in order to be more specific
keme.t (woman) - "the Black woman"; ie, 'divine woman'
keme.t (cow) - "a Black cow" - ie, a 'sacred cow'
kem - a black one (m)
keme.t - a black one (f)
kemu - black ones (m)
kemu.t - black ones (f)
kemeti - two black ones

Used as Nationality (literally):
Sa Kemet - a man of Black (an Egyptian male)
Sa.t Kemet - a woman of Black (an Egyptian female)
Rome.t Kemet - the people of Black (Egyptians)
Kemetou - Blacks (ie, 'citizens')
Kememou - Black people of Black

Noun/Adjectives of Nationality
Kemetu - Black's peoples (Egyptian citizens)
Kmemu - Black people (the Egyptian people)
Resu - Southern people (Upper Egyptians)
Ret - The Men [Rot - men] - a shorthand writing - pronounced 'Rome'
Ret na Rome - We Men above mankind [Rome - men;mankind]
Rome n Keme - Men of Black ("Egyptians")
TaMeru - Land of the Inundation people (Egyptians)
Tawiu - The Two Lands people (Egyptian) [Ta;to - land]

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KING
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Wally

All these facts you post will go over the Head of Patriot who refuses to shake away his wrong views on Ancient Egypt.

Peace

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Wally

All these facts you post will go over the Head of Patriot who refuses to shake away his wrong views on Ancient Egypt.

Peace

Oh I know this [Smile]
I was responding to mentu's question and to newcomers to this forum who might find this information helpfull...Peace to you...

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mentu
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Whenever Kemet is written in mdu neter no determinative for land is given,a drawing for a man and a woman is always presented. I have also seen an expression for 'black cow' in which a determinitive for cow is drawn after the words,no euro has ever interprented this as 'black land'.

It seems that one has to bend over backwards for an interpretation of black land rather than black people.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Djehuti, After reading your post I did a quick run around the net. It appears that the reference to black land is correct. In fact one reference site noted that "black people" was an afrcentric view not shared by mainline scholars.
When you get sucked into these radical groups this is the kind of distortion that takes place.
You guys are wrong about almost everything. One faulty conclusion leads you two another.

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Sundjata
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^AP.. Instead of relying on false authority in Egyptologists (whatever primary qualifications that's supposed to bring you) who have nil training in linguistic analysis, why not actually present an argument that alludes to the use of the word land in Km.t. Simply tell us why people expound that view. Meanwhile, please tell what does Ta-seti and Ta netjer mean, what the significance of "Ta" is and why isn't such in the word Km't to determine what it signifies. Afrocentrism/Eurocentrism aside, do you ACTUALLY have evidence on your side? If so, where is it? If you are content with simply google searches then fine, at least present their evidence. If you can't, I'll just assume that there is none and that this is simply another case of Eurocentric dogma. I'd suggest people stop responding to your denials (denials, not rebuttals) until you can actually provide arguments to coincide with them.

I'm sure you haven't the faintest knowledge of linguistics given your consultation with google search engine instead of books.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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It is more then a simple google search. I just read YET another book about the Egyptian military in which the Egyptologist that wrote it refered to "Kemet-black land." You see it everywhere. I think the reference article is correct. radical afrocentrics have added this to their collection of historical myths. Trust me Sundjata, there are no linguistics experts on this board.
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Sundjata
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^I'm not appealing to authority. You're just telling me what some random historian writes with out telling me why he writes it. Try to understand AP. Why do you think a lot of "radical afrocentrists" exist? Probably because they'd been force fed lies, many of which go against common sense, for decades. Now you're asking a board full of critical thinkers (whether you refer to the lot sweepingly as "Afrocentrists" or not) to just accept a view that obviously goes against basic linguistic understanding (hence, you need not be a linguist expert, as also stated by Ehret in reference to the application as a whole). You have no evidence at all.

I don't think it's as simplistic as km.t merely meaning "Black people". See Wally's post above. It is clear that km means Black so what's important is context and what comes after or before. Where is there any mention of land in Km.t? If you can't answer, then fine. I'd rather go against the grain and be labeled "Afrocentric" for my non-acceptance of your views on this, rather than be a blind follower who is force fed mainstream garbage that makes no sense and simply belongs to the ad nauseum fallacy of argumentation, where if you repeat a lie long enough it becomes true.

Though at the end of the day, I'm confident that Eurocentrists such as yourself (not intended as a pejorative) will continue to be far behind the Afrocentrists in a debate format given the fallacious errors that commonly occur in Eurocentric discourse. Numbers are on their sides so they simply repeat lies in unison. That is neither proof nor science, it's dogma.

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AryanEgypt
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Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked, Arabnised east Africans aren't Semites. The Semites are a very ancient Afro-Asiatic people and they are not originally from Arabia or Mesopotamia but North Africa. The Ethiopians kings where Jews and Ethiopia acculturated a lot of Semitic elements. Nubia was situated in Sudan with about a quarter of its territory in what is now southern Egypt. The Nubian's where the Egyptians neighbours and they had their own kingdom. The Nubian's Pyramids small in size and sloppy build quality is archaeological evidence of ancient Negro workmanship.
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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by AryanEgypt:
[QB] Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked

Prime example AP. As long as this type of loon bin, racist Eurocentric fringe nonsense exists, so will the Afrocentrists or merely those who seek to challenge it.
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TheAmericanPatriot
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I am not saying that some random historian believes it is "black land" but rather that "black land" is the mainline view held by Egyptologists. Radical afrocentrics exist because of modern racial politics and for no other reason. Back in the 1970's on the wave of the civil rights movement we created African Studies and black studies programs in most of our universities. It seems like a good idea at the time but most of us know today it was a big mistake. Instead of expanding knowledge in these fields they were taken over by radical blacks who had a totally political agenda. this subject has been written on extensively. Since that time the academic community has responded and for the most part marginalized their impact BUT they literally RUIN the minds of young blacks who otherwise might have a good career in academics.

the guys on egyptsearch are lost in an academic wilderness and will never be accepted in mainstream academics. In fact, at some point the political climate will change, as it always does, and their positions in these marginalized academic departments will be eliminated.

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AryanEgypt
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:
Originally posted by AryanEgypt:
[QB] Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked

Prime example AP. As long as this type of loon bin, racist Eurocentric fringe nonsense exists, so will the Afrocentrists or merely those who seek to challenge it.
What are you talking about ? I did my research !
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AryanEgypt
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:
Originally posted by AryanEgypt:
[QB] Israel was part of the Kushite empire. The Ethiopian kings hail directly from the ethnic Jews royal lines and whilst the two cultures are distantly linked

Prime example AP. As long as this type of loon bin, racist Eurocentric fringe nonsense exists, so will the Afrocentrists or merely those who seek to challenge it.
Egyptianization.

Kush acculturated Egyptian forms only after it conquered Egypt. Show me early Egyptian Nubian artefacts i.e. 2000BC. I bet you can't because Egyptian civilisation developed independently from and did not evolve from Kush culture.

The Assyrian Mesopotamian (Semitic) conquest of Egypt did not alter it's ethnic make up any more than Kush empire.

England ruled over India for four hundred years. Which is longer than the three hundred years that Assyrian empire stood for. Are the Indians English? Do the English maintain that India was once a white country?

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lamin
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AryanEgypt,

You say that the pyramids in Kush are small and sloppily built.

Well, they are relatively small comapred to those of the AEs--but they are more in number. It often happens that 2 very closely related peoples may just do things a bit differently. Also, the relative smallness could just be a more economical way of building tombs.

Sloppily built? That's a joke. They are still standing after millenia and they outdo by a huge margin anything original ever done in Europe. Stone Henge? LOL. And after Stone Henge? Zero! Until the copy-cat Greeks began adopting Egyptian architecture. LOL

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Djehuti
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^ Ignoring the Arthur Kemp pseudohistorical nonsense posted by the idiot troll above and getting back to the topic at hand...

It still stands that the word Kmt has NO etymology or root word for 'land' or 'soil' at all. Non, nada! The root word in the term is Km meaning 'black' and the suffix indicating plurality, thus 'blacks'. The word for land or soil is Ta. The word Ta is either represented with a hieroglyph for terrain or a throwing stick if referring to a foreign land. Kmt is represented with neither, but is instead represented with burnt coal for 'black' and then a man and woman for 'people'. The script is quite clear and Pat is free to question his 'fellow' Egyptologists with this finding.

Of note, the common rebuttal the FACTS that Eurocents have is that it is nonsense for the Egyptians to 'racialize' themselves as a black people and call themselves black even if they were. However, what the Eurocents fail to realize is that 'black' in Africa is not about 'race' or just skin color but it is a sacred color which is totally unlike the European view of black being negative. In Africa because the color black is seen as sacred, there are many groups who sought to sanctify themselves by calling themselves black as they do their gods. All of this was discussed before!!

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TheAmericanPatriot
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If one understands the script, pardon me if I am suspicious. Everywhere I look I see egyptologists using it as black land. Now I am going to call the guys at Memphis and ask them what it means EVEN though I know what they are going to tell me before I make the call.
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akoben
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"call the guys at memphis" lmao!
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Djehuti
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^ Good. Be sure to ask them what word and corresponding hieroglyph means 'land' and if such a word is found in Kmt. <--- As you can see the word is not there is it?
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TheAmericanPatriot
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Djehuti, my guess is you guys have no clue what you are talking about, we'll see. You make so many terribe mistakes on the black Greek subject this one is probably screwed up as well.

It is what happens when we put ideology ahead of scholareship. You guys should have already been talking to these egyptologists. You might even find you are right now and then. At the very least you will learn something.

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Brada-Anansi
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HairyAnneggwipt says:The Ethiopians kings where Jews and Ethiopia acculturated a lot of Semitic elements. Nubia was situated in Sudan with about a quarter of its territory in what is now southern Egypt. The Nubian's where the Egyptians neighbours and they had their own kingdom.And Ocha really came from China,Coffee from Ethiopia,and Vodlka from Russia so how does that affects the price of Cous cous in Algeria?
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Djehuti
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^ Brada, don't even bother addressing or even acknowledging the idiotic troll 'Aryan'. It is even more stupid than 'patriot'!
quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

Djehuti, my guess is you guys have no clue what you are talking about, we'll see. You make so many terribe mistakes on the black Greek subject this one is probably screwed up as well.

Well then you guessed WRONG as usual. As if you know anything about the topic. Whatbox and I already gave you a basic explanation of the word Kmt. If you doubt us feel free to do a search on the internet on Egyptian language, or find books in the library on the matter. The 'black Greek' issue is a non-sequitor that has no bearing on this and we are right about that as well-- Greeks having neolithic ancestry from Africa as well as those in the Middle East.

quote:
It is what happens when we put ideology ahead of scholareship. You guys should have already been talking to these egyptologists. You might even find you are right now and then. At the very least you will learn something.
LOL Stop projecting professor. It is YOU who follows ideology-- particularly that of white supremacy, while WE follow scholarship!
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lamin
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AP,

You are not thinking properly at all. The fact that large numbers of people or members of some particular school of thought believe that "X is true" does not make it so at all. There are all kinds of beliefs once held by "experts" that have been discarded. Eg: the flat earth theory, the Ptolemaic theory of the universe, the "virgin birth" still firmly held by orthodox Christian theologians, etc.

A correct answer to the translation of what the AEs called themselves is easily found. Just translate the term what it says. Simple! And its a very simple Egytptian to translate. So what is the problem.

You should learn to think rationally, soberly and carefully--if you are interested in what actually obtains--i.e. "the truth". Or are you a "post-modern relativist" who believes that any belief can be justified and supported?

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alTakruri
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Haven't read any but the first day's posts to this
thread. Will only say its an old cannard we've
atomized.

I have already posted my documentation for KM.t
as it relates to people, ethnicity, and community
years ago in these forums and external search
engines will find it for you.


Crust of the bisquit:
  • primary documentaion exists for KM.t as a community,
    ethnonym, and as an adjective for body parts
  • no primary documentation exists connecting the word
    km.t and any AEL word for land/soil, to my knowledge.
Having issued this challenge years ago without it
ever being taken up I again request any layman or
professional
to produce any AE primary contextual
documentation where land/soil is next to the word
km.t

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
It is more then a simple google search. I just read YET another book about the Egyptian military in which the Egyptologist that wrote it refered to "Kemet-black land." You see it everywhere. I think the reference article is correct. radical afrocentrics have added this to their collection of historical myths. Trust me Sundjata, there are no linguistics experts on this board.

...Hey y'all, you know this guy sounds strikingly like ol' Horemhab who once was a regular poster here and who was also from Texas - the same negative, illogic and all - I mean, do you have to be a linguistic expert to know that "Oso Negro" in Spanish means "Black Bear" or that "Naku penda" in Swahili means "I love you" or that "Anok w Keme.t" in Mdu Ntr means "I am a Black(an "Egyptian")...sheesh [Roll Eyes]
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TheAmericanPatriot
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I think Wally, that you have to be a linguistics expert IF you plan on challenging mainstream views on the subject.

Takruri, The fact that 'You' have issued your ideas on the subject is not good enough. All of these top egyptology departments teach the Egyptian language as part of their degrees.
You guys are so fond of just making things up with crappy historical method it is my guess you are doing it on this issue as well.
I'll check these departments early in the week but you and I both know what I am going to find. Perhaps they'll change their minds if I tell them you have spoken.

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Wally
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
I think Wally, that you have to be a linguistics expert IF you plan on challenging mainstream views on the subject.

Takruri, The fact that 'You' have issued your ideas on the subject is not good enough. All of these top egyptology departments teach the Egyptian language as part of their degrees.
You guys are so fond of just making things up with crappy historical method it is my guess you are doing it on this issue as well.
I'll check these departments early in the week but you and I both know what I am going to find. Perhaps they'll change their minds if I tell them you have spoken.

Let's make your research easier:

1) go to the topic FYI: Notes on Some Essential Mdu Ntr words

2) scroll down to the view of the page from the Hieroglyphic Dictionary > "Kam"...

3) scroll down to find the glyph "Kammau" which Budge translates as "Egyptians"; note that the expression is usually written "Na Kammau" as Budge points out.

4) Ask your "Egyptological experts" to give you a *literal translation of the term "Na Kammau"

5) Find someone who is an 'expert' in Coptic (Sahidic) Egyptian and have them translate literally for you "Na Kmemou" (it's the same word as Kammau, ask your "Egyptological experts")

and please let us all know what you find...please

* literal translation: limited to the explicit meaning of a word or text

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TheAmericanPatriot
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I will do that. You may not know what you are doing Wally. They do not say it means land for no reason. Tenured professors do not just make things up, afro radicals often do.
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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by mentu:
The argument is that kemet means 'black people' although euros maintain it means 'black land', however ancient kemetans used determinatives to indicate the exact meaning of words, and the word 'kemet' has no determinative of land,a drawing of a man and a woman is idicated.

For those who have a deeper knowledge of medu neter,where did euros get the land issue?

Is there any word in medu neter with indicating determinatives of land and people on the same word to indicate 'black people of the black land'.Hence euros clinging to this definition?

I will appreciate your input.

I think it means Land but you must keep in mind it doesn't mean that the land (ground) was black it could mean 'land of the blacks' or black land. Land is usually refer to the people who occupy the land so I think your analysis could be right, but I don't think kemet is translated to "black people". It is no difference in the bilbe when you read "All the land of Ethiopia" or "All of Israel" this usually refer to the land and people.
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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by Whatbox:
Everyone knows "kem" = "black". A "kem" cat would be a "black" one.

The contention today's mainstream European 'egyptomania' has is what the name of the state Km.t "signified".

Km = black

Km.t = black

.t denotes femininity and/or plurality

Km.t [nwt] (the name for the state of Dynastic Keme) = black community/city

Rm = man

yw = people

Rm.t = men

When

Km.t rm.tyw is written it means "ancient egyptians" or black men of men

Eurocentrics are right about it meaning black land but they are wrong about the context. Eurocentrics make the meaning of black land mean a ground that is dark, but that is not the context of the word black land. I can say "Europe is a white land", that does not mean that the ground or soil of Europe is white.
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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
really does not whatbox. If the egyptians would have been black they would have had no real awareness of it. It is not impossible for a black man in 2009 to think in the same terms as a man living 3000 years ago. Modern blacks are obsessed with their blackness. No other race of people today sees their personal identity wrapped up in their pigment the way modern blacks are inclined to do. It is very unlikely that the Egyptians, Persians, Nubians etc gave much thought at all to pigment.

Most accounts say the reference is to black soil.

The Egyptians were very aware of color. They were smart enough to color themselves brown and color the people to the "south" black, and color others pale. You can find awareness of color in the bible. Other groups are not reminded of their color or the way they look so it shouldn't be suprising that black people are so conscious of color and the way they look. It is because they live everyday being reminded of it.
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Whatbox
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quote:
and please let us all know what you find...please
lmao [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]
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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
I do not argue with facts when I am presented with them. Ebony, if you were objective you would look at the subject from both sides.
Why do people say it means "black soil?"

That is the lie by Eurocentrics though they are right about the meaning of kemet meaning black land, but it is not the soil the context of those words mean. Egypt actually was quite green and lush. They are aware that black land means land of the black.
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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Mentu, to answer your question, the word for land is 'Ta' which I believe is indicated by a symbol for terrain. 'Kemet' of course has no determinative and instead shows people. As Whatbox correctly shows, the suffix 'et' is a feminine used for plurality of a people. Hence 'Rmt' means people in general but RtnaRmt means something like 'Men of men' (interestingly a title used by many African groups including in nearby Sudan) or 'Kmt' which means 'blacks' (black people).

People like the professor can talk about "land" or "soil" all they want but the Mdu-Neter is clear on the issue.

Thanks for explaining this, do you think the suffix 'et' means land as PEOPLE because in the bible the word land can refer to PEOPLE. I thought the suffix 'et' translate to land but the context means PEOPLE. In other words, to translate the word Kemet in English we would have to say 'Land of the Black' not black people. Does that make sense?
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Bettyboo
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
Djehuti, After reading your post I did a quick run around the net. It appears that the reference to black land is correct. In fact one reference site noted that "black people" was an afrcentric view not shared by mainline scholars.
When you get sucked into these radical groups this is the kind of distortion that takes place.
You guys are wrong about almost everything. One faulty conclusion leads you two another.

Actually "black people" is not the way it would be translated. I think it would be translated "land of blacks" or "the land of the blacks". The word people is not needed so that could be a afrocentric thing but they are on the right track.
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TheAmericanPatriot
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not according to the experts in the field Betty.

You cannot establish a point by calling the experts in the field liars. That is bizarre, almost to the point of being crazy. They have no reason to lie.

Further, if you cannot convince the leading egyptologists something is true your point will be lost to humanity.

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