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Well there's not much more for me to contribute on this that's not already at the links I provided. If one is to use Claudian as a proof one must know what Claudian meant. The people and their residencies are already given above but I may or may not broach a thread here with a chronological listing of peoples and places with maps to make things more precise and clear instead of blurred, general, and anachronistic.
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I would love to see you do that! I do prefer to see these kinds of discussions showing locations on a map.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Well there's not much more for me to contribute on this that's not already at the links I provided. If one is to use Claudian as a proof one must know what Claudian meant. The people and their residencies are already given above but I may or may not broach a thread here with a chronological listing of peoples and places with maps to make things more precise and clear instead of blurred, general, and anachronistic.
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The Woodabe/Bororo/Fulani just like the Tutsi are northern saharan stock. They come from the Ham stock but not what is called today as 'Cushitic' stock.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Well there's not much more for me to contribute on this that's not already at the links I provided. If one is to use Claudian as a proof one must know what Claudian meant. The people and their residencies are already given above but I may or may not broach a thread here with a chronological listing of peoples and places with maps to make things more precise and clear instead of blurred, general, and anachronistic.
Just to let you know I have contacted al-Takruri Dr. Williams at the Oriental Institute at Chicago about the Libyan ("Tehenou") painting from the Old Kingdom in which I consider Fulani-looking men appear. He said he will look into it, but that some of the N Davies Libyan paintings are at the Metropolitan in New York, perhaps in their archives.
The Barzu Fulitani mentioned by Julius Honorius in Mauretanie Caesaria (Juba's Kingdom in northern Algeria) were no doubt Warith Fellata. Garamantes also were used as soldiers by Juba I according to Lucan. These are two people both considered "Libyans " or "Berbers" and "Ethiopians" - along with the "Mazikes" or Mashek of Tripolitania - during Claudian's time period.
Gildo's (Gallidi or Aguellid among Tuareg means chief) brother's name Mascekzel is related to the name of the Tuareg clan name Amazegzel (Mashekh). They were of the Mazigh (Imoshagh or Mazikes stock. The latter is an ethnonym that has only recently (in the last 100 years) adopted by all Berbers. Nineteenth century colonial writers differentiate them as a separate tribe from the Kabyles and other Berber-speakers.
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^ Let's not forget that the Egyptians themselves are close relatives of the Tjehenu if not of direct Tjehenu descent. We know that Libyan influence and ancestry is prominent in the Delta and even farther up the Nile during predynastic times. Mainstream academia acknowledges that many important customs among the Egyptians, specifically mummification came from Libya as is shown by the so-called 'Black Mummy' Uan Muhuggiag of Libya.
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Of course some Egyptians, primarily delta ones, are of partial Tjehenu descent. I doubt Egyptians, as an absolute, are of "direct Tjehenu descent." What we know of the peopling of the lower Nile valley precludes that conclusion.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ Yes, along with many cultural characteristics. I say 'partial' in the sense that the ancient Egyptian populace was a result of the intermingling of Western desert Libyan/Tehenu folk with Sudanic Nile folk and probably even Red Sea hills folk.
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Okay, the close proximity presents a plausible case, but when one uses ethnonyms or possibly national-monikers like "Tehenu", one is giving an impression that these, as already established social entities, were the contributing source groups. Djehuti, can you share the "many cultural characteristics" we are supposed to be looking at here.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ Yes, I understand your point about using ethnic monikers to describe a relation that preceeds the existence of such ethnicities. As far as shared cultural characteristics, well for starters there is mummification as per Uan Muhuggiag as well as uniquely preserved miniature statuettes of animal-headed deities. There is also pottery and other materials that were discovered recently in the Western desert linking the predynastic Libyans to the Egyptians. A thread about these findings was discussed before. Too bad I can't find it now.
Posts: 26316 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Your pic looks more like the Round Head than the Bovidian.
Below, companion pics for the two white guys with cloaks and feathers pic?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This image is suppose to represent people with feathers dating to the bovidian period. Note the two feathers.
This picture probably does not date back to the bovidian period.
What is its source? Where was it published?
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wonderful rock art painting of everyday life were created 7000 to 10,000 years ago at Tassili-n-Ajjer, in the Sahara Desert of Algeria. Five periods of rock art are shown in this screensaver: the Balbalus (hunter or wild fauna) period, the Round Head period of Martian-like figures, the Bovidian cattle herder period, the Horse period, and the Camel period. 48 images.
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Written by Martin Love Photographs courtesy of Henri Lhote
In The Search for the Tassili Frescoes, (Hutchinson, London, 1959) Henri Lhote, a French expert on prehistoric cave art, says Algeria's Tassili-n-Ajjer, with its ancient "frescoes," constitutes "the greatest museum of prehistoric art in the whole world."
Actually, the "frescoes" are not frescoes at all; they're prehistoric paintings some 8,000 years old. But Tassili-n-Ajjeris without doubt the great "museum" that Lhote says it is: an assembly of 800 or more magnificent works of primitive art shelters in a virtually inaccessible region on the edge of the Sahara desert.
Today, Tassili-n-Ajjer is virtually empty of life—as is most of the Sahara. But this was not always the case; as various prehistoric campsites hundreds of miles from the Mediterranean littoral attest, the Sahara was once inhabited by man and beast and today the bones of wild creatures, humans and fish can still be found at the campsites—along with stone implements. Once, in fact, great rivers, rising in the mountain massifs of North linked to the Niger River, Lake Chad and other lakes—whose shrunken remains can still be seen in parts of southern Tunisia. And in the first century B.C., Strabo, the Greek geographer and historian, noted that horses were still common in the Sahara, and, according to the Elder Pliny, a little later, carnivorous beasts still existed in what he called "Libya"—the lands lying to the west of Egypt.
The first European to see the rock paintings and engravings on the sandstone of the Tassili-n-Ajjer was a French soldier named Lieutenant Brenans, who, in 1933, ventured into a deep canyon operation and noticed, on the walls of wadi cliffs, strange figures engraved in the stone: elephants, rhinoceroses, giraffes and, side by side, human figures.
Not long after, Brenans' discovery came to the attention of Henri Lhote, a pupil of the Abbe Breuil, the great expert on prehistoric cave art in France. In Algeria at the time, Lhote went right to Djanet, a town south of the Tassili plateau, met the lieutenant and, ultimately, examined the discoveries himself. He had, he wrote later, never seen anything "so extraordinary, so original, so beautiful."
Some 15 years later and again in 1956, Lhote led a team of painters and photographers to the plateau to copy and record the art work, under the aegis of the Museum of Man in Paris and with the financial support of the National Center of Scientific Research in France. Altogether, Lhote and his associates discovered some 800 paintings, many of which they carefully copied.
Exploring the Tassili, Lhote discovered that the prehistoric inhabitants of the region left paintings almost everywhere they found a favorable spot, particularly in their "homes": the caves and rock shelters in which they lived.
At a site called Tan Zoumiatak, for example, Lhote and his team, during their 16-month stay, found a large rock adorned with great, sometimes fanciful human figures painted with yellow ochre, and depictions of various animals that once roamed the region; the same was true of shelters at Tamrit, Timonzouzine, Jabbaren and Aouanrhet.
Most prehistoric art, as Lhote said, was probably inspired by religious beliefs, but the Tassili seemed different because the paintings could be found almost everywhere, often in places that did not appear to be religious sanctuaries. Most, moreover, seemed to have been done withoutany discernible order- suggesting a simple spontaneity.
In his book, Lhote said that the most ancient paintings—going back perhaps 8,000 years—consisted of small human figures with schematic bodies and round heads, all painted in violaceous ochre. This round-headed human type, he said, is a basic style found in many paintings of the Tassili, and later phases or periods of artistic development are derived to some extent from this phase. But he also found what he called an "evolved" period, characterized by the appearance of polychrome paintings or round-headed human figures, larger and with thickened limbs. At the end of this latter period, at an undetermined date, he said, a recognizable Egyptian influence crept into the art of the Tassili. In this period Tassili artists painted bodies in red ochre, and added stylized flowers similar to ancient Egyptian motifs. After the "evolved" period, artistic quality declined, the drawings became coarser, the forms heavier, and the details, if any, are carelessly executed. This "decadent" period marked the last attempts by the Tassili's early inhabitants to paint the round-headed figures.
Lhote postulates that the "decadent" period ended when cattle-tending herdsmen migrated to the Tassili and pushed out the indigenous population, a view he bases on the fact that Tassili rock shelters were ultimately covered with a new style of painting consisting of human and animal figures of relatively small size. He said that this new period—"Bovidian"—represents the "greatest naturalistic school" of pre historic art in the world, and pointed out that the animals probably occupied a place of great importance in the lives of the Bovidian herdsmen. Wild animals—the elephant, giraffe, ostrich, gazelle, antelope and lion—were treated no less skilfully by Bovidian artists and the abundance of animal depictions attests to the existence of a damp and rich pasture.
Lhote believed that the herdsmen of the Bovidian period came from the Nile valley, or at least had contact with the peoples of Egypt, and pointed out that some Tassili paintings show boats like the ones that could be seen cruising the Nile 5,000 to 6,000 years ago.
In recent years, Lhote's theories about the provenance has been challenged, in an amusing way, by Erich von Däniken, whose Chariots of the Gods proposed that astronauts from another planet had visited the earth sometime in the prehistoric past. As evidence, von Däniken included certain inexplicable facts concerning the 1513 Piri Reis map of the world (See Aramco World , January-February 1980) and the Tassili paintings, some of which, von Däniken believes, bear a striking resemblance to the space suits of today's astronauts (See page 14 and below).
But if the historical provenance of the Tassili paintings is uncertain, the artistic value is not. They are, quite simply, beautiful. Like many prehistoric cave paintings—Lascaux, for example, or Les Combarelles—the Tassili paintings have a freshness of color, an economy of line and a simplicity of treatment that are the envy of modern artists—and this is an additional reason to worry about their preservation. Because of their inaccessibility the Tassili paintings were once safe from man's often destructive curiosity. But since Lhote studied them, repeated wetting by tourists—to permit photography—has begun to erode them; and with the protective film of dust gone, the elements can now get at the colors.
Worse, perhaps, Tuareg entrepreneurs began, in 1968, to break off fragments of painted rock and sell them to tourists. The results, as one writer put it, are deterioration and destruction of man's most ancient artistic heritage.
Martin Love is a former assistant editor of Aramco World Magazine.
This article appeared on pages 6-15 of the January/February 1983 print edition of Saudi Aramco World.Posts: 447 | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: The single feather glyphs are reminiscent of Woodabe and of the rock art figures which also have the single feather -- but these rock art figures contrast (they are painted white) with figures in paintings said to present Fulani cultural traits.
I would like to know where the rock art image of the single feather-garbed people is from and when its dated to.
If it was Libyan it'd come as no cultural shock to me as its right next door to likely habitats of groups ancestral to modern West Sahelian folk.
quote:alTakruri: We have to face the issue of lighter skinned North Africans head on.
Of course.
Lighter skinned Africans exist in Mountainous regions, in Southern and Central regions, not to mention in North Africa 'proper' today.
Speaking of moderns, my educated guess is that they probably appear the way they do because of a combination of factors -- namely insitu evolution, demic diffusion and expansion [which likely occur sometime during and after the Dynastic era]. What makes things interesting is they are likely of Lower/Middle Nile Valley Origins and are paternally descendents of a marker that might be most common among Darfurians.
Some posts on the subject of the Tamahou, Fulani and rock art, from the aforementioned thread:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: It is the creamy colored TMHHW depicted in Seti I's tomb who are compared to Fulani not the dark THHNW. Those TMHHW do phenotypically resemble Zenaga iMazighen more than Bororo Fulani.
Points of phenotypical/physical similarity: * Facial profile - straight (orthognous) * Chin - tufted goatee beard * Hair - thick locks * Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge * Face - gaunt (narrow) * Body - slim wiry build
We could also examine the clothing of the TMHHW and the Bororo to unravel superficial resemblances. Note that Reynolds-Marniche didn't originate the idea of TMHHW-WoDaabe kinship. She should've closely compared the two on her own instead of repeating earlier pronouncements.
In any event Reynolds-Marniche doesn't support an Egyptian origin of the Fulani. She sees them as Gaitule descendants and thus of 'Libyan' antecedents. She point blank labels them black Berbers.
quote:Originally posted by Whatbox: Off topic but check out the head gear:
Are those feathers or what?
Tamahou?
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The fact remains that Saharan rock art distinguishes the cattle herders by phenotype as well as culture from the 'white' hunters and militants who are feathered. The art with Fulani cultural traits portray brown skinned folk who in no way resemble the TMHHW of the pharaohs' tomb paintings unlike these 'whites' who do.
Bororo distinguish themselves from Berbers and do acknowledge a one time subservient position to them. Bororo men shy from taking Berber wives and chide Bororo women who marry Berber men as reverting to the position in former times as being subservient to Berbers.
Today variants of Pulaar/Fulfulde is the Fulani vernacular. Fulani legends say the first Fulbe ancestors didn't speak Fulfulde. One of the first Fulani groups of historical mention were the Banu Warith, a clan of the Godalla taMazight speakers. Some linguist claim a taMazight substratum is in Fulfulde that's absent from the Serere and Wolof Atlantic languages.
Those TMHHW who were creamy colored, because all of them weren't creamy colored, got the cream in their coffee from northern Mediterraneans both before and after the events of the Trojan War and the 'Sea People' migrations.
Since descriptions of Latin Rome and thereafter don't recognize the Maurs as white skinned the white Riffians colour must come from the trade in white women instituted and well noted after the rise of Islam. If not, then it may be from prehistory when the 'Beaker' trade and other trade was ongoing between the western half of littoral North Africa, Spain, and Mediterranean islanders.
Very many contemporay littoral North Africans are partially descended from Spaniards, Italians, and Greeks. It's these misegenated iMazighen who cry the most against 'black' Africans and take pains to remove themselves from any connections to blacks or to non-'Berber' Africans.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: The Tamahou and Tehenu need not be confused with one another. The former were generally featured as light-toned characters sporting double-feathered gear on their heads; whereas the latter were darker-toned characters, and did not sport a feathered head gear. The former wore a cape-like garment, whereas the latter were more bare in their dressing, entailing distinctive straps crossing one another across the chest area, neck gear or laces, and sheaths covering their frontal ends.
The aforementioned "strapped-gear" may be reminiscent of those occasionally seen on Wodaabe/Bororo dancers, generally white in color; however, this is a far cry from identifying the Tehenu as the Bororo. For one, such garment is by no means relegated to the Bororo; Intore dancers for instance, feature such garment. As a matter of an example, a wall-relief displays the Tehenu without a feathered head gear. The Bororo dancers typically have single-feathered head gears, with the feather right above the forehead...interestingly, reminiscent of the "white" toned figures in the rock art picture above [reposted below]. At any rate, the dress of the "white" toned figures is distinct from that associated with the Bororo...
Hard to make it out with precision due to the fairly low resolution, but some of the characters below, appear to be wearing head-gears, reminiscent of those "conical"-looking hats worn by the Bororo...
The aforementioned Tehenu wall-relief also displays domesticated fauna, like cattle, goats, donkeys/asses and possibly sheep. The cattle depicted here though, are not morphologically those of the established Fulani-variants. In a few words, there is nothing about Tehenu figures that is particularly characteristic of just the contemporary Bororo or Fulas in general.
When I originally posted the image of the Mauritanian man above, I made the point that his hair reminded me strongly of the Beja, implying both are descended from an ancestral population that included Aboriginal berber speakers. Recent DNA studies of Tuaregs supports this, along with the ancient historical Egyptian contexts that put the Temehu in close proximity to the "C-Group Nubians" who lived in the same areas as the Beja today in Sudan and Egypt. This reflects the linguistic studies that also places the origin of Berber languages in East Africa most likely in and along the Nile Valley and into the Horn. So I only see evidences from multiple disciplines corroborating the same theory. The hairstyles of these peoples being strongly reminiscent of the Beja hairstyles is only one characteristic that supports this of course.
I believe that the populations in the Nile Valley were migratory cattle herders with wide ranging seasonal migratory patterns between the Nile Valley, East Africa and the Sahara. Those populations who eventually became sedentary and formed part of the early Nile Valley cultures including the Khartoum Mesolithic complex, Ta Seti and ultimately dynastic Egypt. After these settled populations formed nation states, it became harder for other very closely related populations of pastoral nomads to enter the Nile Valley in Egypt, which led to the early conflicts between the people of Kmt and the western and southern frontiers like the Temehu who were originally depicted almost exactly like the people of Kmt because of a common ancestral relationship.
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These points make a lot of sense to me, Doug. And to help prove them I wish to G_d I could find the early Eygptian painting that used to hang in the Oriental Museum in Chicago (dating from the Old Kingdom) of a group of Libyan men with dark brown complexions and "Libyan" hairstyles.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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I recall darker skinned libyan men on other artifacts as well, such as some of those from Tut's tomb. Of course, this was in old photo books from 20 or more years ago so I am not sure if I can ever locate those again. Of course they looked exactly like the Woodabe.
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^ And which is more fanatic? Those who discuss populations native to Africa being black or those who come up with some absurd notion that the Egyptians were descended from "European farmers". I think all rational and sane posters know the answer.
Getting back to the topic...
What about more pics of New Kingdom Libyans like these?
Posts: 26316 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ And which is more fanatic? Those who discuss populations native to Africa being black or those who come up with some absurd notion that the Egyptians were descended from "European farmers". I think all rational and sane posters know the answer.
Getting back to the topic...
What about more pics of New Kingdom Libyans like these?
I think you were right in your assessment that these could be ancestral Tuareg, Djehuti. It is obvious that when the paint was not faded away it probably waws meant to portray a dark copper brown people with black hair similar to those now living in southern Libya. I know that this hairstyle is still worn in southern Libya or northern Sudan by some tribes as I saw it one one of those TV specials here in America. However, I had though they might have been the Mossalama a Zwaya tribe or Fulani. Perhaps there is someone on this forum who knows which tribe still wears "the Libyan side lock" in that region.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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^ Yes, my point was despite many white scholars' emphasis on white individuals of these tribes, the majority of members still had to have been black. Again, I concur with Takruri that there very well have been whites present among these peoples, but it seems Western (white) scholars love to place too much emphasis on such individuals rather than the black majority. Not surprisingly despite the presence of blacks on the opposite side of the Mediterranean in Europe, such individuals are ignored entirely by western academia, yet only the loony Afrocentrics would suggest it mean that entire groups or rather all the native inhabitants of southern Europe were black!
Also, I think Wally may be on to something when he suggests that the Libyans the ancient Egyptians called 'Tjemehu' were ancestral to Tuareg since not only did the Egyptian word 'tjeme' meant 'bright' or 'brilliant' with specific reference to blue lapis-lazuli stone, but that Libyans such as the one in the above picture did wear blue colors reminiscent of the blue style clothing worn by modern Tuareg today. As for the side-lock braided style, I find it interesting such a style is still worn today though I've not had the luck of seeing it not even on TV.
Posts: 26316 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, my point was despite many white scholars' emphasis on white individuals of these tribes, the majority of members still had to have been black. Again, I concur with Takruri that there very well have been whites present among these peoples, but it seems Western (white) scholars love to place too much emphasis on such individuals rather than the black majority. Not surprisingly despite the presence of blacks on the opposite side of the Mediterranean in Europe, such individuals are ignored entirely by western academia, yet only the loony Afrocentrics would suggest it mean that entire groups or rather all the native inhabitants of southern Europe were black!
Also, I think Wally may be on to something when he suggests that the Libyans the ancient Egyptians called 'Tjemehu' were ancestral to Tuareg since not only did the Egyptian word 'tjeme' meant 'bright' or 'brilliant' with specific reference to blue lapis-lazuli stone, but that Libyans such as the one in the above picture did wear blue colors reminiscent of the blue style clothing worn by modern Tuareg today. As for the side-lock braided style, I find it interesting such a style is still worn today though I've not had the luck of seeing it not even on TV.
I agree since the earliest knwon Tjemehu, Tjehenu, Lebou, Imakuhek and Kuhek appear to have been originally the same people, although I'm not sure what is being said about the relationship of the word Lapis lazuli. That's interesting if its true.
It would be interesting to see if the originally area of the Tjemehu - in or around Kharga oasis the people wore such a color.
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