posted
I wasn't actually trying to argue that Zaghawa had the first kingdom or that they were "west Africans" I was trying to show how many accounts differ from Dana's account on Zaghawa. The irony is that these scholars seemed to believe Zaghawa were very ancient. If it said Zaghawa were from the moon it would have shown that not everyone agrees Zaghawa are connected to Yemen
quote:Originally posted by markellion: There are many other accounts (see previous post) that claim Zaghawa had the first kingdom of "western Sudan". Whither that is true I don't know but there are sources that make that claim, therefor we shouldn't be overly hasty to accept that they came from Arabia or wherever.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa.
The thing on long distance trade was to show that different communities were interacting with each other over long distances and probably long before Islam too. Although those accounts were greatly exaggerated
quote: The quote you keep referring to is likely claiming that Kanem Bornou was the first Islamic or Arabic civilization in that region west of modern Sudan. It certainly does not amount to any serious history of West Africa.
It was referring to a Pre-Islamic culture that was in the same region
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I don't think Dana is saying that the first Zaghawa are descended from Arabians. What Dana is saying is that later Islamic Kingdoms such as Kanem and Funj had intermarried with black Southern Arabians. Likewise, the aboriginal nomadic types of Sudan, Ethiopia and Upper Egypt are all related to the Aboriginal type of Arabia. I think you are misunderstanding what she is saying. Therefore the nomadic black populations that populated the Sahara and Sahel into west Africa are distant relatives of the nomadic African types that settled Arabia a long time ago. And indeed their probably has been some travel back and forth.
posted
I have never once said there were not migrations going back and forth. I am talking about her idea associating Zaghawa with Yemen and she is talking about pre-Islamic times.
Again I have never said migrations did not take place
I've posted this before but I'm going to post it again about large scale migrations. Also it talks about trade connections with Ghana which is significant because it links these places together:
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army
quote:We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution
quote:For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt
posted
One problem is associating desert life style to Arabia like when the author bellow says "Negro rule" and "law of guinea" as opposed to laws that desert people are supposed to have. And the author also ignores that Walata was under Malian rule. Many of these empires were extending and conquering northward but the colonial way of stressing that this city was no longer a part of Ghanah makes it seem like the "blacks" were losing territory. He doesn't ignore Malian rule for no reason it is all a part of the colonial propaganda
“Negroland of the Arabs Examined and Explained” 1841
quote: Of the laws and usages of Ghanah, such as were capable of enduring after subjection to a foreign power and conversion to the Mohammedan faith, but scanty notices have been transmitted to us. It deserves to be remarked, nevertheless, that the law of inheritance in Ghanah gave the preference to the sister's son, and that the same law remained in force in the fourteenth century in Walata, as well as in the Mandingo kingdom of Mali, where, however, its existence need not create surprise. But in Walata, on the border of the desert, with a population chiefly of Berber origin, the existence of a law so singular, so characteristic of Guinea, and so exactly coinciding with the law of Ghanah, strongly argues the influence of Negro rule, and favours the presumption arising out of what precedes, that Walata was comprised within the limits of Ghanah.
One of the customs of Ghanah, transiently mentioned by El Bekri, calls for some remark. In the presence of the king, the people prostrated themselves, and sprinkled their naked bodies with dust. This agrees exactly with what Ibn Batutah witnessed and justly reprobated at the court of Mali.Such slavish manners could never have originated on the border of the desert, nor where local circumstances give the least encouragement to the love of independence. They are the manners of Western Guinea, and cannot be supposed to have ever existed in Houssa, a hilly country, divided into petty states, each cherishing a rude spirit of liberty.....
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I wasn't actually trying to argue that Zaghawa had the first kingdom or that they were "west Africans" I was trying to show how many accounts differ from Dana's account on Zaghawa. The irony is that these scholars seemed to believe Zaghawa were very ancient. If it said Zaghawa were from the moon it would have shown that not everyone agrees Zaghawa are connected to Yemen
quote:Originally posted by markellion: There are many other accounts (see previous post) that claim Zaghawa had the first kingdom of "western Sudan". Whither that is true I don't know but there are sources that make that claim, therefor we shouldn't be overly hasty to accept that they came from Arabia or wherever.
Most peoples in the "Western Sudan" migrated from the Saharan area and from more eastern regions. That is also what Africans believe.
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: I have never once said there were not migrations going back and forth. I am talking about her idea associating Zaghawa with Yemen and she is talking about pre-Islamic times.
Again I have never said migrations did not take place
I've posted this before but I'm going to post it again about large scale migrations. Also it talks about trade connections with Ghana which is significant because it links these places together:
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army
quote:We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution
quote:For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt
It is not "my idea" to associate the Zaghawa or Zaghwe or any other group of Africans with the Yemen or Arabia. It is the African sources that do that. But, most importantly that is not what this blog is about.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I don't think Dana is saying that the first Zaghawa are descended from Arabians. What Dana is saying is that later Islamic Kingdoms such as Kanem and Funj had intermarried with black Southern Arabians. Likewise, the aboriginal nomadic types of Sudan, Ethiopia and Upper Egypt are all related to the Aboriginal type of Arabia. I think you are misunderstanding what she is saying. Therefore the nomadic black populations that populated the Sahara and Sahel into west Africa are distant relatives of the nomadic African types that settled Arabia a long time ago. And indeed their probably has been some travel back and forth.
Thanks for the explanation Doug. It's just what I'm trying to say. I guess I am not being all that "confusing" after all as you show some are able to understand what I have written.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: It is not "my idea" to associate the Zaghawa or Zaghwe or any other group of Africans with the Yemen or Arabia. It is the African sources that do that. But, most importantly that is not what this blog is about.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Could you show me these sources? Same thing with Oduduwa. Were you saying these people passed through Ethiopia because that would make it relevant
Again I'm not saying migrations from Yemen didn't happen I'm talking about cases like Oduduwa (who likely is associated with Benin) and Zaghawa. Plus I've given a great amount of information concerning long distance travel and interactions
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You said this in the other thread you've also said things here that indicate that Zaghawa were late comers in the region. This is why I pointed out the irony of what other scholars wrote. Maybe what you say is true but I'd like some specific information on it
"Has Anyone Read The Unknown Arabs by Tariq Berry?"
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The original Zaghawa are the same people as the Zaghwe Jews of Abyssinia and there is no reason to think that they didn't have some pre-Islamic roots in the area of Yemen as their own traditions say.
posted
Many people might misunderstand why I post all these sources my point is to show that migrations did occur. From these sources we might make these three conclusions
1. There were migrations occurring throughout Africa and also traveling over long distances and trade connections and other types of interactions
2. Zaghawa are ancient people and already had a kingdom since very early times
3. The Zaghawa were traveling in large numbers to enlist as soldiers in Muslim armies in the 9th century
Perhaps one of these points isn't true but if these are true, we could conclude that there might have been movements of Zaghawa into Yemen since pre-Islamic times because maybe this kind of movement was going on since before the 9th century.
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From my experience just about everything written has been mistranslated in one way or another so everything should be seen with skepticism because the translator can change the meaning of things just a little bit and it can give a distorted view of the original writings. However from what I can find the Zaghawa were very influential so mabye they had some influence in "West Africa" (places to the far west of them) in pre-Islamic times. There is a mention in this book about an Arab being part of the royal line of Kanim rulers but I don't have the book with me
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
He confirmed that during periods of strength Kanim expanded northward into the Sahara, rather than southward
page 44
From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan. God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him...
quote:Originally posted by Hammered: Djehuti, Interesting that nobody teaches the crap you and dana preach and it's the public library must be hiding it all from us.
Apparently not, since I mentioned that books I've read from the library years ago that are decades old including encyclopedic works state that the populations of Arabia have African ancestry.
How about you cite a book or any source that states otherwise. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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To Markellion and Dana, I believe there is some confusion as to what is meant by "Western Sudan". One definition entails a region of the modern nation of Sudan while another entails a Western region of the African continent.
As Doug has pointed out, before 'Sudan' became the name of a country it was used to designate an entire tract of Africa from the Red Sea coast of Eritrea to the Atlantic coast of Senegal.
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I was never claiming they were western Africa or whatever I was showing that many sources don't associate them with having come from Yemen. These sources just happened to mention them as "western Sudan" but I was showing these sources to show they didn't associate them with Yemen.
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The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Dana the Above is totally wrong Mande and Sonink are not mixed with Yemeni were do u get this information from
and Zaghawa has nothing to do with the Zagwa dynasty of ethiopian jewish kings who were not tigrean but of Qemant and Agaw that is were u get Zagwa or Zagaw people or Agaw people who were jews
The Zaghawa of Sudan are in Darfur amongst the Fur and Masalait tribes. The problem in Darfur is the Fur people vs Zaghawa and Masalait tribe over water and grazing land
Arabs have a history of claiming that Habashi meaning modern day Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia as being Arabs. If u ever read Tariq Al Habashi which is a Islamic arabic book mainly used in Al Azhar and Saudi Arabia and most of the Islamic instuitutions
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Zaghawa are not from Yemen
The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Dana the Above is totally wrong Mande and Sonink are not mixed with Yemeni were do u get this information from
and Zaghawa has nothing to do with the Zagwa dynasty of ethiopian jewish kings who were not tigrean but of Qemant and Agaw that is were u get Zagwa or Zagaw people or Agaw people who were jews
The Zaghawa of Sudan are in Darfur amongst the Fur and Masalait tribes. The problem in Darfur is the Fur people vs Zaghawa and Masalait tribe over water and grazing land
Arabs have a history of claiming that Habashi meaning modern day Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia as being Arabs. If u ever read Tariq Al Habashi which is a Islamic arabic book mainly used in Al Azhar and Saudi Arabia and most of the Islamic instuitutions
Like I said before I am trying to explain why zaghawa and certain Mande speakers have traditions of Yemenite origin. I never said the Zaghawa are from Yemen.
I have tried to explain why these traditions exist among African themselves. If you are not aware of the African traditions that say such then you should say so instead of suggesting that I made these claims.
The name Zaghwe means the Agaw (Cushitic speakers) whom LIKE ALL CUSHITIC SPEAKERS have traditions of coming from Arabia. I don't know for certain if the Zaghawa were directly related to Zagwe. That is something that was brought up by certain European colonial historians like Richmond Palmer and mainly due to the fact that the Zaghawa were called "Beriberi" like the Cushitic peoples further East THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE COME FROM.
I think you also need like Markellion to stop confusing the idea of modern Arabians coming into North Africa with the fact proven by archeologists and held in traditions of Cushitic and Tuareg people that came from Yemenites (Canaan).
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Markellion and Dana, I believe there is some confusion as to what is meant by "Western Sudan". One definition entails a region of the modern nation of Sudan while another entails a Western region of the African continent.
As Doug has pointed out, before 'Sudan' became the name of a country it was used to designate an entire tract of Africa from the Red Sea coast of Eritrea to the Atlantic coast of Senegal.
The phrase 'the Sudan', is in fact still used for that entire tract. If Markellion is not aware of this it is another reason why I should not corresponding with him on these matters.
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I am very much aware of this but if you gave any specific information about Zaghawa I would appreciate it if you point it out again because I must have missed it
In fact except for you nothing I've read has ever mentioned Zaghawa being related to Yemen
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Wow!!! Hats off to you Dana. A refreshing change to the air-heads that frequent this forum(not the vets). Really informative and new to me and many lurkers. Keep it up.
Sage . . I think you got some competition.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] WHEN ARABIA WAS “EASTERN ETHIOPIA” Part I By Dana Marniche
The Indigenous Populations of Arabia
In reality most dialects classified as Semitic are found in Ethiopia and these have been found to not deviate enough from the so called Cushitic language group to qualify as a separate linguistic group thus the terms Semitic and Hamitic have fallen into disfavour among modern linguists and other academics and the name AfroAsiatic has come to be used to comprise both language groups. In fact, the original culture of Abraham and early “Semitic” populations are widespread in Africa and even unmodified in some cases. Similarly deities that were venerated by Semitic speaking people of Asia, such as “the Aramaeans” and “the Akkadians” are still found among Ethiopians and other Africans.
The following quotes are from 19th and early 20th century Western historians, whom unlike today’s historians, understood the strong connection of the original Arabians with the Ethiopic peoples of Africa.
1869 “The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, are known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.” — The New Larned History for Ready Reference Reading and Research, 1922 citing F. Lenormant, Manual of Ancient History, bk. 7, ch. 2. published 1869.
1869 - “To the Cushite race belongs the oldest and purest Arabian blood, and also that great and very ancient civilization whose ruins abound in almost every district of the country….The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia. “ John Baldwin from Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity; Harpers 1869.
1881 “ A third body of the Cushites went to the north of the Egypt and founded, on the east of the Delta, the kingdom of the so-called Hyksos , whom tradition designated sometimes as Phoenicians sometimes as Arabians, and in both cases rightly…Lepsius has proved by excellent reasons the Cushite origins of the Hyksos statues from San (Tanis) now in the museum of Boulaq and has made more than merely probable the immigration of the Cushites into the region of the Delta…” p. 402 Heinrich Karl Brugsh in A History of Egypt Under the Pharaohs Derived Entirely from the Monuments, published by John Murray 1881, Vol 2, 2nd edition.
1872 - “Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.” Traditions, Superstitions and Folklore, Charles Hardwick , Manchester A. Ireland and Company, 1872
1891 - …the Cushite Arabians and the Chaldeans, the founders of the first historic civilization in Babylonia being certainly Hamitic, though early mixed with Semitic tribes, long before Assyrian rule. Charles William Hutson , The Beginnings of Civilization, The Columbian Publishing Co., New York. 1891.
1902 - “Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full, rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.” by Henry Field Anthropology, Memoirs Field Museum Press Anthropology, Memoirs Arabs of Central Iraq; Their History, Ethnology and Physical C haracters, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4,. . . . . [qb][quote]Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I've admired Dana for near two decades so I'd say a most welcome colleague, though not quite the same focus. Company beats competition any day when persuing a broad based multilevel view of Africana which is much prefered over myopic egoistic dogma.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sage . . I think you got some competition.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: I am very much aware of this but if you gave any specific information about Zaghawa I would appreciate it if you point it out again because I must have missed it
In fact except for you nothing I've read has ever mentioned Zaghawa being related to Yemen
Markellion - I just answered this question on the posting about Tariq Berry's book where u asked it.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Wow!!! Hats off to you Dana. A refreshing change to the air-heads that frequent this forum(not the vets). Really informative and new to me and many lurkers. Keep it up.
Sage . . I think you got some competition.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] WHEN ARABIA WAS “EASTERN ETHIOPIA” Part I By Dana Marniche
The Indigenous Populations of Arabia
In reality most dialects classified as Semitic are found in Ethiopia and these have been found to not deviate enough from the so called Cushitic language group to qualify as a separate linguistic group thus the terms Semitic and Hamitic have fallen into disfavour among modern linguists and other academics and the name AfroAsiatic has come to be used to comprise both language groups. In fact, the original culture of Abraham and early “Semitic” populations are widespread in Africa and even unmodified in some cases. Similarly deities that were venerated by Semitic speaking people of Asia, such as “the Aramaeans” and “the Akkadians” are still found among Ethiopians and other Africans.
The following quotes are from 19th and early 20th century Western historians, whom unlike today’s historians, understood the strong connection of the original Arabians with the Ethiopic peoples of Africa.
1869 “The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, are known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.” — The New Larned History for Ready Reference Reading and Research, 1922 citing F. Lenormant, Manual of Ancient History, bk. 7, ch. 2. published 1869.
1869 - “To the Cushite race belongs the oldest and purest Arabian blood, and also that great and very ancient civilization whose ruins abound in almost every district of the country….The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia. “ John Baldwin from Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity; Harpers 1869.
1881 “ A third body of the Cushites went to the north of the Egypt and founded, on the east of the Delta, the kingdom of the so-called Hyksos , whom tradition designated sometimes as Phoenicians sometimes as Arabians, and in both cases rightly…Lepsius has proved by excellent reasons the Cushite origins of the Hyksos statues from San (Tanis) now in the museum of Boulaq and has made more than merely probable the immigration of the Cushites into the region of the Delta…” p. 402 Heinrich Karl Brugsh in A History of Egypt Under the Pharaohs Derived Entirely from the Monuments, published by John Murray 1881, Vol 2, 2nd edition.
1872 - “Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.” Traditions, Superstitions and Folklore, Charles Hardwick , Manchester A. Ireland and Company, 1872
1891 - …the Cushite Arabians and the Chaldeans, the founders of the first historic civilization in Babylonia being certainly Hamitic, though early mixed with Semitic tribes, long before Assyrian rule. Charles William Hutson , The Beginnings of Civilization, The Columbian Publishing Co., New York. 1891.
1902 - “Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full, rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.” by Henry Field Anthropology, Memoirs Field Museum Press Anthropology, Memoirs Arabs of Central Iraq; Their History, Ethnology and Physical C haracters, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4,. . . . . [qb][quote]
Well -I definitely am not trying to compete with anyone but I appreciate ur response. If u like this please see the other postings on this site Yemenites in Spain and the Rasta site Fear of Blackness. As well as part 3 and 4 of When Arabia was Ethiopia. I had intended to make this part of a book I've been researching for the last 30 years but decided its better to get some of this information out as I write in case anything happened, and before the latest genetics theories distort the history of black populations as the "Mediterranean race" theory once did. I've lost information several times through computer malfunctions over decades.
The problem it turns out is that thru my research I have become convinced that most civilizations for thousands of years were "Ethiopic" before they were anything else. So the book will be several volumes long.
In other words, much more to come. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: djehuti, no studies support her claims or yours. You are the master of spin and distortion. Nobody in the academic community ever mentions the views you present. Anyone who wants to hear them has to come here and if they do they leave scratching their heads. What we have with you and dana is two frustrated negroes who want to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
You must be bald by now Hammer.
By the way I know u think ur the philosopher king but I don't think most people on here will appreciate ur Texan proverb. What - you don't think Negroes can sew.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Hi djehuti - just noticed these postings. I had past this before as well as Hammered's smartalicky commentary.
Actually I saw ur post below this one and have to say first I'm NOT Italian, nor do i look Italian. LOL. I'm a black American. Although people who come from other countries may not automatically know this I don't want to get any unnecessary rumors started. My surname may have thrown you off. Its Kabyle - from my ex.
Second, i did see the three links you posted which were very interesting. It appears people on this site were already aware of a lot of this stuff some years ago. What happened to Hikuptah I wonder. He or she and some of the others were making some good points. So did vidavida.
Also hope you have changed ur mind about Yonis since then. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If you want to see good examples of Old other Arabian types, check some of the British photo collections from the late 1800s to early 1900s.
I donb't know how I missed so many posts on the first page. I agree with Djehuti, Doug. These are great photos. I have seen other photos u have posted on other egyptsearch forum posts that are very inspiring as well.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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What is the distribution of these black Arabs? Are they found all over the Arabian region, or do they tend to be concentrated in a certain part of that region?
Also, is there any chance that the Prophet Muhammad was one of these black Arabs?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Al~Jahiz stopped short in reporting Muhammed among the blacks. He only wrote as much as Muhammed's grand father sired sons as black as the night leaving the rest to inference.
There is some kind of law or something in Islam that prescribes death for asserting Muhammed to be black. If it was in effect in al~Jahiz's time it would have gave him pause in outright declaring Muhammed black.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What is the distribution of these black Arabs? Are they found all over the Arabian region, or do they tend to be concentrated in a certain part of that region?
Also, is there any chance that the Prophet Muhammad was one of these black Arabs?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hi, I really don’t understand this obsession with Turks. Ancient Arabia is today what it was back then in the antiquity, a nation of mixed people. Take a look at some youtubes videos showing Pre-Islamic artifacts, they show all kind of faces.
There is some kind of law or something in Islam that prescribes death for asserting Muhammed to be black. If it was in effect in al~Jahiz's time it would have gave him pause in outright declaring Muhammed black.
Are you sure about that? All I know is that allot of the hadiths were mistranslated into English
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Do the research. I don't have time for your the-all-powerful-Euro-colonialist altered all Arabic texts displaying colour prejudice and Arabs couldn't have enslaved Africans without the-all-powerful-Euro-colonialist historical revisionism.
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A few months months ago someone here talked about hadiths and different translations. I would not have made that comment if it didn't sound as exotic as a death penalty for saying Mohamed was black.
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What is the distribution of these black Arabs? Are they found all over the Arabian region, or do they tend to be concentrated in a certain part of that region?
Also, is there any chance that the Prophet Muhammad was one of these black Arabs?
Yes - in fact they are. They are in they remote towns of Central Arabia and still in the Persian Gulf as well as along the coasts extending up to Sinai. They are basically the remnants of the Arabs that didn't mix with non-Arabs.
They range from dark brown to black in color. In the time of Muhammed due to their fights against the Iranians, Arabians developed what can be called a form of nationalism in which blackness was the ideal.
Thus, even close relatives of Muhammed are documented as boasting of their blackness. One is said to have wondered whether red (white) people should be exterminated. Muahhamed had to calm down the color problem that was going on.
The tribes Muhammed was descended from include the Quraysh, Sulaym, Kinda, Khazraj all described as "black" or "jet black" in one early Arabic text or another. Muhammed in one source is said to have been called Green which is the Arab word Akhdar used to describe someone near black in color.
Although I don't really consider the color of the Muslim prophet that important, one interesting statement by Al Rumi on the prophet's family was brought up either by Tariq Berry or Wesley Muhammed recently.
"'You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color.' "
Thus the question becomes what is the possibility that he had fair skin when the evidence in fact points to "very little".
It was generally recognized that the Arabians who were the real Arabs were black and near it in color "dark brown" in color, such people that were found in Iraq, Iran, and Syria and fiar-skinned were in reality a mixture of subject people with the original Arabs. Among such people of course blackness came to be looked down upon due to the entrance of the Zanj as slaves.
But Syrians, Iraqis and other non-Arab people, like the 9th century al-Mubarrad of Basra said that "Arabs took pride in their blackness" and looked down on people with fair skin.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
There is a Yemeni story about Bab al Mandeb the gate of tears it is called that because of the separation of the the two familys or the Ethiopians on both sides of the Mareb. It is well known in Arabian History that Habashi have been rulers of Arabia for 1000 years ending during the birth of the prophet Muhammed.
Yemen and Modern Day Eritrea,Tigray use to be one country.
I would like to know more information about Christian Nubia, and Christian Axum Who became Christian first my coptic friend claims that ethiopians and egyptian coptics are the same and are the oldest of the world.
Ancient Axum had many Nubians as well as Beja within there kingdoms as well as Baza. Because if u look at Bible scriptures when they speak of the Bronze ethiopians they cant be talking about Nubians but more about modern day ethiopia.
One thing that is universal among all arab scholars and islamic imams and scholars is that islamic revelation claims that the Habashi will destroy Mecca one day as they are destined to rule All of Arabia.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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Older than Egypt is Ethiopia From distant past to the dawn of Islam, Gamal Nkrumah looks at the history of this African nation
Ethiopia is old, even older than Egypt, but its antiquity is somewhat different. While Egypt was the world's first indisputable nation-state, unique in its complex politico-religious system augmented by magnificent material remains and a corpus of epic literature, in Ethiopia, the very cradle of mankind, the material evidence of its ancient civilisation alone attests to its former glory.
The Ancient Egyptians, from the earliest times, kept records of their kings and this chronology is central to the chronological structure of the early Aegean, Levantine and Mesopotamian civilisations. It is, however, of no import to Ancient Ethiopia. If the Ethiopians did keep records, these have either been lost for ever or not yet discovered. The attempts by unnamed writers to compile an Ethiopian king-list -- the Kebra Negast or Book of the Glory of Kings -- from the Queen of Sheba to the rise of the Zagwe dynasty, is believed to be a 13th-century creation; its aim seems to have been to establish the political credentials of the so-called Solomonic dynasty, an Ethiopian king-list that traces the rulers of Ancient Axum to Menelik I (originally Bin Ha Malik, The King's Son), the son of the "Israelite" King Solomon and the "Ethiopian" Queen Makeda, the Queen of Sheba.
Confusingly, the Queen of Sheba features prominently in the oral and written traditions of Ethiopia, Yemen and ancient Israel. The Yemenis saw her as a South Arabian queen, the Ethiopians as Axumite. In Arabic her name is Bilquis, in Ethiopia Makeda and in the biblical language of the Israelites she is known as the Queen of Sheba. To add to the confusion, historians suggest that King Solomon must have reigned around the 10th century BC. It is difficult to decipher fact from fiction, but archaeological evidence is indisputable and it reveals that Axum was founded a millennium later.
Click to view caption Ethiopia in pictures --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LUCY-DINKENESH: Ethiopia easily claims the longest archaeological record of any country in the world. It is in Ethiopia that the story of the evolution of mankind began. The remains of the earliest ancestral humans or hominids have been found there. But while sophisticated civilisations historically developed on the Ethiopian highlands, in many parts of the mountains and rugged country, many of its peoples retained a material existence not much different from the hunter-gathering lifestyles of our ancestral hominids.
Two Ethiopian regions stand out as preeminent sites favoured for habitation by the early hominids -- the Omo Valley in the southwestern part of the country, and the Afar or Danakil Depression. To this day, these remote and inhospitable regions remain largely cut off from the outside world. They form different parts of Africa's Great Rift Valley, which runs from central Africa, through the eastern part of the continent, dissecting the Horn of Africa, dividing Arabia from Africa, marking out the outlines of the Sinai Peninsula, and ending somewhat unobtrusively with the Gulf of Aqaba and the River Jordan Valley.
The Omo Valley and the Danakil Depression are markedly different in landscape and terrain. The latter is a desolate and dreary desert, 100 metres below sea level and one of the hottest places on earth, while the Omo Valley is a veritable Garden of Eden with a rich and luxuriant tropical flora and teaming with exotic fauna.
Remains of Australopithecus Afarensis, an early hominid dating as far back as four million years, have been found in an almost complete state in the Danakil Depression, which was not always the arid desert it is today. When the early hominids roamed the Afar region, it was a well-watered and wooded savanna country. In 1974 archaeologists excavating sites in the Awash River Valley discovered the skeletal remains of a female hominid whom they promptly named "Lucy" (apparently because they were listening to the song Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds by the Beetles). The diminutive three-and-half-feet tall Lucy -- known as Dinkenesh or "Thou art beautiful" in Amharic, Ethiopia's official language -- lived some 3.5 million years ago. Her skeletal remains are now deposited at the National Museum of Addis Ababa, which is also home to a host of other prehistoric remains.
THE ANTECEDENTS OF AXUM: The history of Ethiopia goes back a long way. The profusion of Stone Age tools and cave paintings hint at the industriousness and vibrancy of the lifestyles of the earliest Ethiopians and attests to the country's antiquity. During the Chalcolithic Age (6200-3000 BC) the inhabitants began cultivating grains and crops that are still much in use in Ethiopia today. Indigenous grasses and grains, such as teff, from which the national Ethiopian sour pancake-like moist bread is made, began to be extensively cultivated as a staple food. The ensete, a root crop known as the false banana because the plant resembles the banana tree but bears no edible fruit, was also grown in the southern and central parts of the Ethiopian Highlands. Sorghum, barley and buckwheat were also cultivated.
From late prehistoric times patterns of livelihood were established that were to become characteristic of Ethiopia down through the ages and right up to contemporary times. The Early Bronze Age (3000 BC) witnessed the domestication of cattle, a process which had started much earlier in neighbouring Sudan. At this stage of development, regular interaction between the indigenous peoples of Ethiopia and their neighbours first began.
The close proximity of the Ethiopian highlands to the Red Sea has always provided the main line of external communication. This stretch of water has, since time immemorial, provided a means of transport and the Ancient Egyptians recorded voyages to the Land of Punt -- God's Land. To them, Punt was the most ancient country, a sacred territory.
Queen Hatshepsut in the 18th dynasty (1540-1304 BC) dispatched a diplomatic and trading mission to Punt, beautifully depicted on her funerary temple at Deir Al-Bahri. Punt was also the source of a host of exotic goods such as gold, ivory, ostrich feathers, animal skins and hides.
Egyptian legends sometimes referred to Punt as a land ruled by serpent-kings. Interestingly enough, material and literary evidence suggest some form of serpent-worship before the advent of Christianity in Ethiopia. Could then, Ethiopia be the Punt of the Egyptians? To carry the argument further, the sturdy tankwas, or papyrus canoes, that ply Lake Tana -- the source of the Blue Nile -- are curiously reminiscent of the Ancient Egyptian reed boats.
The Hebrews, too, seem to have maintained links with Ancient Ethiopia. The marital union of the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon was not the first biblical reference to a Hebrew-Ethiopian marriage. According to the Bible Moses had an Ethiopian wife. "And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman," we read in the Book of Numbers.
Ethiopia appears in the King James Version 45 times. Most references to Ethiopia are cited in the Old Testament, not always in the most favourable light. Still, there appears to have been some familiarity with Ethiopian geography in the Levant with frequent biblical references to the rivers of Ethiopia, such as Gihon.
The centrality of the Solomonic link to the Ethiopian heritage is challenged by concrete archaeological evidence. "The Queen of Sheba is clearly recalled as a contemporary of King Solomon, whose reign must be placed around the 10th century BC. There is no archaeological evidence that the site of Axum was settled until one thousand years after this date," argues David W Phillipson in Ancient Ethiopia, published by British Museum Press, 1998.
AXUM: This most celebrated state of Ancient Ethiopia could, in its heyday, be compared in grandeur with the empires of Rome, Persia and Ancient China. Among the most imposing features of its material culture are monumental stelae that mark the burial catacombs of Axumite kings. Some 120 survive today -- many in a dilapidated state of disrepair. The largest is over 30 metres long, albeit no longer standing upright. It was the largest single stone ever quarried in the ancient world. The stelae of Axum are grave markers with which catacombs are invariably associated. Shafts, underground passages and chambers are always found nearby. Alas, most of the burial chambers were looted in antiquity, and only a few broken grave-goods were left by robbers
Byzantine Greek and Roman references to Axum -- a prosperous state which at its zenith stretched from Nubia to Yemen and Hejaz, and encompassed much of the Horn of Africa -- abound. The kingdom, in conjunction with the Nabateans and southern Arabians, apparently held a monopoly over the spice and incense trade.
Relations between Axum and some of its other neighbours remain unclear. We know that Axum's fabled King Ezana (who reigned from 325 to 360 AD) controlled Mero‘ (the once thriving Nubian kingdom) and Yemen as well as the Red Sea coast up to Suakin in Sudan. We know also that Ezana's armies overran Mero‘ when it was in its last throes. A trilingual inscription, vaguely reminiscent of the Rosetta Stone, was erected by Ezana recording his victories over the Nubians in three languages -- Sabaean, Ge'ez and Greek.
The Axumite empire's heartland was the highlands of northern Ethiopia and southern Eritrea. The most impressive ruins are to be found in the northern Ethiopian region of Tigray, and to a lesser extent in Eritrea. The capital, Axum, in northern Tigray still stands today -- a mere shadow of its former glory.
Axum's rulers assumed the title of Negust Nagast, King of Kings, and started minting coins that provide an interesting chronology of the rulers of Axum. No other kingdom in Africa south of the Sahara did this, and the study of the Axumite coinage system reveals much about the development of the political structure, religion and culture of the ancient empire. For example, the earliest Axumite coins bore the crescent and sun-disc, or crescent and star -- designs characteristic of the pagan religion where moon and sun worship was prevalent. Later, when Christianity was officially adopted as a state religion, the cross replaced the crescent and sun-disc as state emblems engraved on official Axumite coins. Many of the earliest coins also had Greek inscriptions but, as Axum grew in importance, the Greek inscriptions were replaced by Ge'ez inscriptions (see box).
Christianity was adopted as a state religion in Ethiopia in the fourth century AD. According to tradition, two Christian youths from Tyre, Aedesius and Frumentius, were shipwrecked on the Red Sea coast of what is today Eritrea. They were taken to Axum, became tutors of the future king, and later Frumentius left Ethiopia for Alexandria and asked the Coptic Patriarch of Egypt to send a bishop to head the nascent Ethiopian Church. Frumentius was consecrated. He assumed the name Abuna Salama, initiating a tradition, whereby the Archbishops of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church were consecrated by the Coptic Pope, which lasted until the early 1970s.
ETHIOPIA AND YEMEN: The history of Ancient Ethiopia cannot be separated from that of Ancient Yemen, whose recorded history stretches back over 3,000 years. Archaeological evidence shows that settled agricultural communities were established in the Yemeni highlands by the third millennium BC. Urban centres soon developed supported by the surrounding farming countryside. Masonry flourished and monumental sculptures and massive stone architecture were erected. Sophisticated irrigation works were also constructed which attest to a high degree of material sophistication. States like Hadhramaut, Saba, with it capital Ma'rib, and later Himyar thrived as industrious mercantile nations that monopolised the spice and incense trade of the ancient world.
Successive civilisations of Mineans, Sabaeans and Himyarites interacted closely with their counterparts in Ethiopia. The precise nature of the relationship between the people who inhabited Ancient Yemen and their contemporaries across the Red Sea in Ethiopia is unknown. What is clear, however, is that due to geographical proximity, strong cultural and trading links developed between the most celebrated of Ancient Yemeni civilisations, Saba, and the peoples of Ethiopia. Archaeological research based on the results of excavations and the study of extant monuments and artefacts by Western and Ethiopian scholars reveal growing cultural and trade contacts between them.
It is difficult to acertain how far Axum, the most glorious of Ethiopia's earliest civilisations, can be viewed as a direct heir to Saba. The mystification is deepened by the confusion between Sheba, a variation of Saba, and Ethiopia in the Bible and other mediaeval documents. Sheba, or the Kingdom of the South, could equally refer to either Yemen or Axum.
That controversy apart, there is no doubt that the cultures and histories of Saba and Ethiopia were inextricably intertwined. The Sabaeans were highly skilled masons and water engineers and, not many centuries after they constructed the Ma'rib Dam, walled cities and other architectural wonders, similar structures began to be erected in Ethiopia.
Scholars claim that some 2,500 years ago, successive waves of Semitic people from southern Arabia crossed the Red Sea into what is now Ethiopia, they brought with them their Semitic language and script. Around the fifth century BC, there is archaeological evidence to show that the Semitic influences intensified. Sabaean merchants and perhaps armies moved across the Red Sea into Ethiopia, as attested by the many Sabean inscriptions dating to that period. In time they produced a pre-Axumite culture which ripened into a proto-Axumite culture.
We know next to nothing of the pagan religion of the Axumites. In sharp contrast, much is known today about the Ancient Egyptian religious beliefs and practices. We know the names and attributes of Ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses, but little is known about the nature of worship in Ancient Ethiopia -- save perhaps that serpents were sacred creatures and maybe the sun, moon and stars were worshipped, as in Ancient Arabia. Archaeological evidence suggests that South Arabian gods and goddesses were worshipped in Ethiopia before the advent of Christianity. Nothing, though, is conclusive. Archaeological evidence points to the influx of settlers and cultural influences from Yemen, across the Red Sea, into Ethiopia at least about 800 BC, in all probability much earlier. The Red Sea proved no impediment to trade and cultural exchange. Yemen at the time was at the centre of a trading network that linked Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean world -- what is today Greece, Turkey and the Levant -- with Yemen and onwards to Oman, the Arabian Gulf, present day Iraq, Iran and India, perhaps even beyond. In Yemen, the Minaean Civilisation was absorbed or superseded by the celebrated Sabaean Civilisation about 1000 BC. Trade relations were revolutionised when the inhabitants of Arabia domesticated the dromedary, or one- humped camel, in the 11th century BC.
The domestication of the dromedary made it easier to transport goods over more desolate regions. The spice trade was the mainstay of the economy. The Sabaeans were great builders and the imposing dam they constructed near Ma'rib, their capital, stands testimony to their accomplished architectural skills. They lived in multistoried apartment blocks in walled cities with monumental gates. From the windows and door designs on the Axumite stelae, it appears that these particular Sabaean colonists probably settled in Ethiopia in much the same way as Europeans settled in America. Indeed, interaction between Yemen and Ethiopia in ancient times is sometimes compared with the historical relationship between Europe and America, with the Red Sea as substitute for the Atlantic Ocean.
The Sabaeans united southern Arabia into a single political entity by the third century BC. By the time of the birth of Jesus Christ, they had expanded their empire to include Ethiopian lands across the Red Sea. With Sabaean power waning in the fifth and sixth centuries AD, their empire was conquered by the Ethiopians in 525. The Sabaean civilisation endured for 14 centuries lasting from around 800 BC to 600 AD. And as Saba declined, Axum arose. The tables were soon turned and Ethiopia had the upper hand. For many centuries afterwards, Yemen remained under Axumite suzerainty.
Trade and cultural exchanges between Sabaean Yemen and Ancient pre-Axumite Ethiopia were strengthened. Artefacts and stone slabs bearing the Sabaean script of southern Arabia became more common in Ethiopia. Soon the monumental stone structures similar to those in Ancient Yemen began to appear in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia. The Temple of the Moon in Yeha is the largest surviving structure in East Africa.
With the rise of Islam in the seventh century AD, Axum lost Yemen and Hejaz, and the once flourishing empire shrunk back to its original core region of the northern Ethiopian highlands.
Ge'ez the sacred tongue LINGUISTIC affinities between Ethiopia and the Arab world are as strong today as they were in bygone days. Ge'ez, Amharic and Tigrinya are related to Arabic. There are some 80 different languages spoken in Ethiopia, but the country's official language is Amharinya, better known outside Ethiopia as Amharic. It is the language of higher education, most modern literature and government. Historical linguists generally hold that the languages spoken by a majority of the inhabitants of Ethiopia today, namely the Afro-Asian languages, have their roots in northeastern Africa. The area covered by speakers of the Afro- Asian linguistic group spans a huge swathe of territory from northwestern Africa, the Sahara, eastern and northeastern Africa, Arabia and southwestern Asia. The Afro-Asian group of languages is divided into Semitic, Cushitic and Omotic -- and speakers of all three groups are found in Ethiopia. Indeed, Ethiopia is the only country where all the three linguistic groups are currently in use.
Scholars also suggest that first Omotic and then Cushitic speaking peoples moved into the Ethiopian highlands about 7,000 BC. The Semitic-speaking peoples entered Ethiopia at a later date. Speakers of the Nilotic languages spanning a vast territory in Sudan and other East African countries such as Kenya and Tanzania inhabit in the southwestern extremities of Ethiopia, and it is not known if they previously inhabited other areas of the country. Of the Cushitic languages spoken in Ethiopia, the most widespread is Oromo followed by Somali and Sidamo. But the recorded history of Ethiopia has traditionally been the domain of the country's Semitic speakers.
The foremost of the Semitic languages of Ethiopia is Ge'ez, widely regarded as an offshoot of Sabaean, held in special esteem.
Ethiopia has one of the longest continuous literate traditions in Africa. It is a literary tradition where Ge'ez plays a central, all-important role. Ge'ez is to Ethiopia what Latin is to Europe. Ge'ez, the liturgical language of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the official court language of the Axumites, borrowed 24 symbols from the Sabaean writing system.
Amharic, the official language of contemporary Ethiopia, is derived from Ge'ez. Two other languages are closely related to it -- Tigre, spoken in Eritrea; and Tigrinya spoken in Tigray, northern Ethiopia, as well as in Eritrea. Both Amharic and Tigrinya use a modified version of the Ge'ez script.
The Axumites left behind a body of written records in Greek and Ge'ez. The Bible was translated into Ge'ez from Greek, and the Ge'ez alphabet bears an uncanny resemblance to both the Coptic and Greek scripts. Ge'ez , which ceased to be a spoken language in the 10th century, is still widely studied by academic scholars who specialise in Ancient Ethiopia.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Older than Egypt is Ethiopia From distant past to the dawn of Islam, Gamal Nkrumah looks at the history of this African nation
You can always make your own thread to post on rather than disrupting this one to which your post was not related.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: There is a Yemeni story about Bab al Mandeb the gate of tears it is called that because of the separation of the the two familys or the Ethiopians on both sides of the Mareb. It is well known in Arabian History that Habashi have been rulers of Arabia for 1000 years ending during the birth of the prophet Muhammed.
Yemen and Modern Day Eritrea,Tigray use to be one country.
I would like to know more information about Christian Nubia, and Christian Axum Who became Christian first my coptic friend claims that ethiopians and egyptian coptics are the same and are the oldest of the world.
Ancient Axum had many Nubians as well as Beja within there kingdoms as well as Baza. Because if u look at Bible scriptures when they speak of the Bronze ethiopians they cant be talking about Nubians but more about modern day ethiopia.
One thing that is universal among all arab scholars and islamic imams and scholars is that islamic revelation claims that the Habashi will destroy Mecca one day as they are destined to rule All of Arabia.
You are right in saying that the Tigrai Province and Yemen used to be one people. That connection began over 5,000 years ago and was one reason Arabia was called "Ethiopia".
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: There is a Yemeni story about Bab al Mandeb the gate of tears it is called that because of the separation of the the two familys or the Ethiopians on both sides of the Mareb. It is well known in Arabian History that Habashi have been rulers of Arabia for 1000 years ending during the birth of the prophet Muhammed.
Yemen and Modern Day Eritrea,Tigray use to be one country.
I would like to know more information about Christian Nubia, and Christian Axum Who became Christian first my coptic friend claims that ethiopians and egyptian coptics are the same and are the oldest of the world.
Ancient Axum had many Nubians as well as Beja within there kingdoms as well as Baza. Because if u look at Bible scriptures when they speak of the Bronze ethiopians they cant be talking about Nubians but more about modern day ethiopia.
One thing that is universal among all arab scholars and islamic imams and scholars is that islamic revelation claims that the Habashi will destroy Mecca one day as they are destined to rule All of Arabia.
You are right in saying that the Tigrai Province and Yemen used to be one people. That connection began over 5,000 years ago and was one reason Arabia was called "Ethiopia".
The oldest Christians according to ancient Jewish texts were the Meunim or Ma'in fishermen of the Tihama Asir. They influenced the early kinsmen Azdites, the Ghassan and Lakhmids or Bait Lahm who founded (Bethlehem)in Syria and lived in Hira. These people in Arabia were called Azdites many of whom were Jewish before they became Christian.
The related Baliyy or El Beliun of the Banu Kuda'a (Kuth) moved into Egypt's eastern deserts and Nubia and were the "Jacobite Christian" section of the Beja who otherwise were known as Magians.
They were called Balau or Balawi in Eritrea. The Beja then moved into the Tigrean province and Christianity spead through them to other Amhara related people.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Yes - in fact they are. They are in they remote towns of Central Arabia and still in the Persian Gulf as well as along the coasts extending up to Sinai. They are basically the remnants of the Arabs that didn't mix with non-Arabs.
They range from dark brown to black in color. In the time of Muhammed due to their fights against the Iranians, Arabians developed what can be called a form of nationalism in which blackness was the ideal.
Thus, even close relatives of Muhammed are documented as boasting of their blackness. One is said to have wondered whether red (white) people should be exterminated. Muahhamed had to calm down the color problem that was going on.
The tribes Muhammed was descended from include the Quraysh, Sulaym, Kinda, Khazraj all described as "black" or "jet black" in one early Arabic text or another. Muhammed in one source is said to have been called Green which is the Arab word Akhdar used to describe someone near black in color.
Although I don't really consider the color of the Muslim prophet that important, one interesting statement by Al Rumi on the prophet's family was brought up either by Tariq Berry or Wesley Muhammed recently.
"'You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color.' "
Thus the question becomes what is the possibility that he had fair skin when the evidence in fact points to "very little".
It was generally recognized that the Arabians who were the real Arabs were black and near it in color "dark brown" in color, such people that were found in Iraq, Iran, and Syria and fiar-skinned were in reality a mixture of subject people with the original Arabs. Among such people of course blackness came to be looked down upon due to the entrance of the Zanj as slaves.
But Syrians, Iraqis and other non-Arab people, like the 9th century al-Mubarrad of Basra said that "Arabs took pride in their blackness" and looked down on people with fair skin.
Not that I doubt the above, but how do you explain certain passages in the Quran or Hadith that making disparaging remarks about blacks??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not that I doubt the above, but how do you explain certain passages in the Quran or Hadith that making disparaging remarks about blacks??
I think it is because of mistranslations someone a few months ago talked about mistranslated hadiths and what the hadiths really meant. I hope people give some information to shine light on the matter:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
Well I had mentioned this previously. Many of the hadith were written by non-Arabs, especially Iranian Arabs or Arabs of Iranian descent who had settled in Yemen like Munabbih. Many of them appear to have been unfamiliar of Arabian culture and physical appearance writing about things like how they ate with their hands or that Muhammed said something about being respectful to a man "even if he had hair" was like raisins.
When even fair- skinned people today from modern southern Palestine to Jordan have kinky and even woolly hair it becomes obvious that the "even if he had hair on his head like raisins" descriptive addendum of some lank haired person in some non-Arab place like Iran or Syria.
This bedouin of Jordan reflects the appearance of many Jordanian and Hejaz clans. His appearance was probably typical of the most Arabians of Muhammed's time and much later if we are to believe Dhahabi 14th century Syrian.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
Well I had mentioned this previously. Many of the hadith were written by non-Arabs, especially Iranian Arabs or Arabs of Iranian descent who had settled in Yemen like Munabbih. Many of them appear to have been unfamiliar of Arabian culture and physical appearance writing about things like how they ate with their hands or that Muhammed said something about being respectful to a man "even if he had hair" was like raisins.
When even fair- skinned people today from modern southern Palestine to Jordan have kinky and even woolly hair it becomes obvious that the "even if he had hair on his head like raisins" descriptive addendum of some lank haired person in some non-Arab place like Iran or Syria.
This bedouin of Jordan reflects the appearance of many Jordanian and Hejaz clans. His appearance was probably typical of the most Arabians of Muhammed's time and much later if we are to believe Dhahabi 14th century Syrian.
I have a hard time believing people that looked like this which was probably considered white by Arabs were saying derogatory things about kinky haired people. Tabari, Isfehan, and many other Islamic commentarists were living in Iran where the myth of black and cursed Ham (Chamar), Daasa or Daae and Zanj had been centuries in full bloom.
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The oldest Christians according to ancient Jewish texts were the Meunim or Ma'in fishermen of the Tihama Asir. They influenced the early kinsmen Azdites, the Ghassan and Lakhmids or Bait Lahm who founded (Bethlehem)in Syria and lived in Hira. These people in Arabia were called Azdites many of whom were Jewish before they became Christian.
quote:
dana The related Baliyy or El Beliun of the Banu Kuda'a (Kuth) moved into Egypt's eastern deserts and Nubia and were the "Jacobite Christian" section of the Beja who otherwise were known as Magians.
They were called Balau or Balawi in Eritrea. The Beja then moved into the Tigrean province and Christianity spead through them to other Amhara related people
Dana where do u get this information from the BAnu Kuda who are related to the bani kindy they moved into the eastern desert of egypt but they did not bring christianity to the Beja u are right about the jacobite syrians but it came from abu Halawi i am of Beja origin and we have different traditions of how we entered middle egypt as well as places like ismaeliya and our connections with nubians as well as eritrea and axum.
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However racism (like in biological race) was never a big deal in these lands and all these scholars wrote positive things about African nations. On top of that there is also prejudice and down right hatred that isn't connected to color and there is also prejudice against fair skinned folk
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Many Muslims say that there is nothing racist about the "raisin head" hadith
Edit: moved the rest to the other thread
There is certainly nothing racist about it but it just shows how little the Arabs had to do with writing certain hadiths.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: The oldest Christians according to ancient Jewish texts were the Meunim or Ma'in fishermen of the Tihama Asir. They influenced the early kinsmen Azdites, the Ghassan and Lakhmids or Bait Lahm who founded (Bethlehem)in Syria and lived in Hira. These people in Arabia were called Azdites many of whom were Jewish before they became Christian.
quote:
dana The related Baliyy or El Beliun of the Banu Kuda'a (Kuth) moved into Egypt's eastern deserts and Nubia and were the "Jacobite Christian" section of the Beja who otherwise were known as Magians.
They were called Balau or Balawi in Eritrea. The Beja then moved into the Tigrean province and Christianity spead through them to other Amhara related people
Dana where do u get this information from the BAnu Kuda who are related to the bani kindy they moved into the eastern desert of egypt but they did not bring christianity to the Beja u are right about the jacobite syrians but it came from abu Halawi i am of Beja origin and we have different traditions of how we entered middle egypt as well as places like ismaeliya and our connections with nubians as well as eritrea and axum.
Actually, the Balau or Bellawi are thought to be of t1he Banu Kuda'a (Himyarites) and are the same people as the Hadareb Beja who came in the 6th century supposedly and were not the Jacobites. My mistake. The Jacob Christians came earlier and were the related to the Blemmyes thought to be a different Beja group. I do not know of any tradition saying they were Syrian unless you are talking about the Farasan Christians of the Banu Taghlib who were the "black Christians" forced from Syria and settling along the African coasts across from the Farasan Islands next to the Axumites.
The information I have on the black Syrians or Farasan Christians comes from the book Axum by Yuri Korbischanov and on the Blemmyes from Richmond Palmer's, 'Bornu Sahara and Sudan.
I never heard of an Abu Halawi. Is he a Copt and which Beja people are you from?.
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