'Fake' means to make a copy of something with the intent to deceive, whereas to 'recreate' something while at the same time explaining that this is in fact a copy of something are two different distinctions:
You can get recreations of the 'Mona Lisa' for free on the Internet but you can also be duped into paying millions of dollars for a fake 'Mona Lisa' that is purported to be the 'real thing!'
--unlike the fake Nefertiti bust or the insane notion that there were blond and red haired Europeans in pre-dynastic Egypt; along with the earth being flat, this sculpture which you proposed as a 'fake' is not, it is merely a recreation, which it clearly states...
ANCIENT SCULPTURE GALLERY Recreating and delivering the best of antiquity
quote:Originally posted by Spiralman: The Nefertiti bust is not fake. CT scans have proven its authenticity.
Is this Nefertiti – or a 100-year-old fake? * Kate Connolly in Berlin * guardian.co.uk, Thursday 7 May 2009 19.24 BST
Nefertiti bust on display at Berlin’s Kulturforum A visitor photographs the Nefertiti bust on display at Berlin’s Kulturforum in 2005. Photograph: Michael Kappeler/AFP/Getty Images
Her elegant and chiselled features held proud and high on a swanlike neck, she has been smiling serenely for 3,400 years. At least that has long been the popular and scientific belief that draws half a million tourists to see her in Berlin every year.
But now doubt has been thrown on the authenticity of the painted limestone and plaster bust of the 18th dynasty Egyptian queen Nefertiti by two authors who claim she is a fake.
According to a Swiss art historian, the bust is less than 100 years old. Henri Stierlin has said the stunning work that will later this year be the showpiece of the city's reborn Neues Museum was created by an artist commissioned by Ludwig Borchardt, the German archaeologist credited with digging Nefertiti out of the sands of the ancient settlement of Amarna, 90 miles south of Cairo, in 1912.
In his book, Le Buste de Nefertiti – une Imposture de l'Egyptologie? (The Bust of Nefertiti – an Egyptology Fraud?), Stierlin has claimed that the bust was created to test ancient pigments. But after it was admired by a Prussian prince, Johann Georg, who was beguiled by Nefertiti's beauty, Borchardt, said Stierlin, "didn't have the nerve to make his guest look stupid" and pretended it was genuine.
Berlin author and historian Edrogan Ercivan has added his weight to the row with his book Missing Link in Archaeology, published last week, in which he has also called Nefertiti a fake, modelled by an artist on Borchardt's statuesque wife.
Public and political enthusiasm about the find at the time gave the artefact its "own dynamic" and led to Borchardt ensuring it was kept out of the public gaze until 1924, the authors have argued.
He kept it in his living room for the next 11 years before handing it over to a Berlin museum, since when it has been one of the city's main tourist attractions.
The statue was famously admired by Adolf Hitler, who referred to it as "a unique masterpiece, an ornament, a true treasure".
Recent radiological tests carried out on the statue by Berlin's Charite hospital supposedly proved that the bust is indeed more than 3,000 years old. The tests uncovered a hidden face carved into the statue's limestone core. But Stierlin has argued that while it is possible to carbon date the pigments, which appear to be ancient Egyptian, it is impossible to accurately date the bust because it is made of stone covered in plaster.
Other aspects of the find, which he has claimed support his theory, are the facts that the bust has no left eye, which the ancient Egyptians would have considered a sign of disrespect towards their much-loved queen, and that the first scientific reports on the discovery were not written up for 11 years.
Borchardt's diary entries remain the main written account of the find. He wrote: "Suddenly we had in our hands the most alive Egyptian artwork. You cannot describe it with words. You must see it."
But Dietrich Wildung, the director of Berlin's Egyptian Museum, where Nefertiti is currently housed, has fiercely dismissed the allegations as an attempt to exploit the bust's popularity. "A beautiful woman and a putative scandal," he said. "That always sells."
He said the claims could easily be dismissed because of the detailed computer tomography and material analyses that had been carried out on Nefertiti.
In October, the bust is due to be moved back into the Neues Museum, which has been reconstructed from its war-torn remains by British architect David Chipperfield, and where Nefertiti was last on display 70 years ago. She is to hold court over a long gallery in the north cupola, where she will be set on a specially constructed pedestal.
Over the decades Germany has rejected repeated requests from Egypt for her return.
...During the Nazi years, Luftwaffe chief Hermann Goering planned to give it back to Egypt, but Adolf Hitler said the bust would have pride of place in a museum for Germania, the expanded Berlin that was due to be the capital of his Thousand Year Reich.
Scans of the 'Berlin' bust
Nefertiti's 'Inner Statue' Reveiled - The Queen's Real Face? Submitted by Sean Williams on Mon, 11/09/2009 - 19:06 An Italian duo have revealed what they claim is the 'real' face of Queen Nefertiti. Ethnologist Franco Crevatin, from the University of Trieste, and cosmetics expert Stefano Anselmo, started with a recent CAT scan of the famous queen's bust, held in Berlin's newly-reopened Neues Museum. The scan of 'Nonofret' as she's known in Germany, appeared to show a second face, made of stone, buried beneath the stucco top layer the world has come to adore. Using computer imaging, Crevatin and Anselmo have made what they feel is a faithful reproduction of the hidden face. And though differences are subtle - shallower eye sockets, lines around the mouth and a tiny bump on the bridge of the nose - the duo claim their version is closer to the real Nefertiti.
Could this be the profile of a queen? By Tim Friend, USA TODAY Is this Nefertiti? Two months ago, a team of Egyptologists led by British scientist Joann Fletcher of the University of York announced that a neglected mummy collecting dust in a nondescript tomb was actually that of ancient Egypt's most famous female ruler.
This image shows a computer reconstruction of what is believed to be the face of Nefertiti. Discovery Channel handout
In an effort to confirm her identity, two British experts have applied their forensic skills to digital X-rays of the skull. (Related graphic: Reconstructing Nefertiti)
Neither Damian Schofield of Nottingham University nor Martin Evison of Sheffield University knew in advance the identity of their "victim." They specialize in reconstructing human faces from skulls for murder cases in which the victim is unknown.
Schofield and Evison created a 3-D computer mesh of the skull, then placed a series of markers to designate where tissue would be added. Next, they added facial muscles to give the face its full depth and contour. Finally, a graphic artist added skin texture, eye color, lips and the crown.
Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Lookin like Kate is trying to make a legacy for herself in this politically correct era. There sure seems more than enough consumers willing to buy into it.lol
Posts: 676 | From: the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2010
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Funny how when Whites loose an argument that was stupid in the first place, they attribute it to political correctness, Or throwing the "Others" a bone? Instead of correctly attributing it to debunking White lies.
Does not even the Albino mind, have the ability to understand that if the one, is much more different than the many, chances are that one is bogus?
Yes, such a determination does require the release of White hopes and fantasy. But long term, isn't it healthy for Whites to finally accept their TRUE place; in history and as humans.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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...and Nefertiti would not have stood out as "She brings beauty" amongst her sister contemporaries such as the Amhara, Somali, Oromos, in the same neighborhood, who are, objectively, some of the most beautiful women on the planet...
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: (responding to A Simple Girl) "Politically Correct"????
Funny how when Whites loose an argument that was stupid in the first place, they attribute it to political correctness, Or throwing the "Others" a bone? Instead of correctly attributing it to debunking White lies.
Does not even the Albino mind, have the ability to understand that if the one, is much more different than the many, chances are that one is bogus?
Yes, such a determination does require the release of White hopes and fantasy. But long term, isn't it healthy for Whites to finally accept their TRUE place; in history and as humans.
The bust is authentic. CT scans have proven without a doubt that it is authentic.
Nefertiti's 'hidden face' proves Berlin bust is not Hitler's fake
"Using 21st Century medical computer technology, German researchers have unveiled the "hidden face" below the surface facial features of the famed 3,300-year-old bust of 18th Dynasty Queen Nefertiti ? dispelling once and for all nagging rumors that the bust might be a duplicate made at the orders of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s, and that the genuine bust might have been lost in the chaos following World War II."
If Nefertiti doesn't look like a black woman to you Afrocentrics then i can't help any of you there. Calling it a forgery doesn't mean it has to be considered a forgery.
Posts: 175 | From: Who knows? | Registered: Jan 2009
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^ The whole Nefertiti bust issue was discussed all too many times before in this forum.
As I have stated many times before, The features of the bust are actually no different from other black women of northeast Africa. The only thing peculiar really is the complexion and judging by photos I've seen in certain lighting, the paint is definitely faded (like so many Egyptian portraits). Faded paint is not proof of 'whites'. Sorry but we can't help you spiralbrains.
Posts: 26353 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I mean no disrespect but i doubt that you will find many people to share your view of the Nefertiti bust looking like a black woman, especially among the Afrocentrist THEMSELVES LIKE WALLY who have been quick to seize on the concept of the bust being a forgery.
And wally et al, if the bust is a copy or forgery then why would the outer facade be retouched with ancient paint, and retouched imperfectly so that the ears are still broken? The theory of forgery of tampering with the Nefertiti bust makes no sense to me. As for her skin color being faded, you maniacs always make that same old tired excuse despite the fact that the presence of lighter colored female figures and depiction gives a true picture to their skin color, for the females who spent less time in the sun are lighter than the males who spent more time in the sun.
Posts: 175 | From: Who knows? | Registered: Jan 2009
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^ The theory of alteration or tampering is not new nor is it unique to 'Afrocentrics'. Actually the very first people to postulate forgery were the very peers of Ludwig Borchardt (its discoverer) who were also European archaeologists.
Again, the features of the bust are no different from that of other east African women who because of such were themselves classified as "caca-soid" or "caca-soid-mixed".
^ The elongated neck, oval face, the prominent cheekbones, the round tipped nose etc.
As for her coloring, your presumptions about Egyptian women's color is wrong. Egyptian women were traditionally painted in yellow as a symbolic convention. It has nothing to do with staying indoors as even women working in the fields were portrayed the same way. Even the yellow symbolism is not absolute as there are many examples exceptions to that rule and women were portrayed in the same mahogany to chocolate complexions as men. In fact Amarna carvings portray Nefertiti with a complexion much darker than the traditional yellow.
There is nothing maniacal about it. There are all too many examples of artwork where the original dark paint is faded off.
Take for example the seated scribe you and your ilk love to tout as proof of white Egyptians.
If you look closely under certain lighting, you can still just barely make out traces of original dark paint on the bust.
Not surprisingly, I have seen much older photos where the remnants were more prominent.
Posts: 26353 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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There is no african world history to distort. these people are all screwballs. Putting this afrocrap on here is a waste of cyber space. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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Again, the features of the bust are no different from that of other east African women who because of such were themselves classified as "caca-soid" or "caca-soid-mixed".
^ The elongated neck, oval face, the prominent cheekbones, the round tipped nose etc.
As for her coloring, your presumptions about Egyptian women's color is wrong. Egyptian women were traditionally painted in yellow as a symbolic convention. It has nothing to do with staying indoors as even women working in the fields were portrayed the same way. Even the yellow symbolism is not absolute as there are many examples exceptions to that rule and women were portrayed in the same mahogany to chocolate complexions as men. In fact Amarna carvings portray Nefertiti with a complexion much darker than the traditional yellow.
There is nothing maniacal about it. There are all too many examples of artwork where the original dark paint is faded off.
Take for example the seated scribe you and your ilk love to tout as proof of white Egyptians.
If you look closely under certain lighting, you can still just barely make out traces of original dark paint on the bust.
Not surprisingly, I have seen much older photos where the remnants were more prominent. [/QB]
Wally,
Djehuti who is very black mentally says that none of the above statues are fake and that they just have some paint fading or in the case of Nefertiti, a symbolic approach to the coloring.
What do you say to this?
Would you consider reversing your opinion based on young Djehuti's revelations?
Posts: 43007 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Wally, Djehuti who is very black mentally says that none of the above statues are fake and that they just have some paint fading or in the case of Nefertiti, a symbolic approach to the coloring. What do you say to this? Would you consider reversing your opinion based on young Djehuti's revelations?
I agree with Djehuti on his analysis of the controversial Berlin bust of Nefertiti. The anomaly however, that exists with this bust is its coloration which is totally inconsistent with the Amarna art movement: women were equal to men and were no longer to be portrayed as weak (yellow) but as strong (brown). The repainting of Nefertiti took place in Germany where it was probably reasoned that "who knows anything about Ikhnaten's revolution..."
Amarna art
I can foresee a problem for the Arab Republic of Egypt when the reality of this alteration of its most widely disseminated 'relic' hits the fan, and it will...Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: [QB] [b]The "good ol' boys" at National Geographic would try and convince the masses that
This
is an accurate portrayal of
Khufu
Not nit picking Wally, but I've always been under the impression that this particular bust represents a figure from the 1rst Dynasty, speculated by some to be of Narmer himself. Quite sure that this isn't a bust of Khufu though as it predates him.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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And wally et al, if the bust is a copy or forgery then why would the outer facade be retouched with ancient paint
The fact that it WAS retouched renders it unauthentic, namely the outer facade. The facial features are not out of character for an ancient Egyptian/NE African female, however, the skin complexion is and this has nothing to do with "females being traditionally lighter because they stayed out of the sun". Say that out loud and listen to it. It sounds stupid and makes no sense unless you assume that AE men tanned more than other populations, and year round/24/7 (that they had a default tan that expressed its self every single time they painted each other). Who'd deny the darker shade of brown as their 'natural' skin color which when not idealized would be no different than women, as shown in most of Armana art depicting males and females as the same (equal; no symbolism or idealism).
The differences between men and women portrayed in some of the scenes are so exaggerated one would be nothing short of an idiot to take them at face value (hopefully I'm not talking about you).
Btw, I am not in here arguing that it was a forgery either (just not original) as that kind of thing to me, with all due respect to Wally et al, is a futile exercise and in my opinion, simply not an important area of research.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Btw, I am not in here arguing that it was a forgery either (just not original) as that kind of thing to me, with all due respect to Wally et al, is a futile exercise and in my opinion, simply not an important area of research.
Discovered Artifacts and Texts, are the ONLY means of uncovering, piecing-together, cataloging, and understanding history.
Like many who don't respect artifacts, you obviously believe that historians have other means; like maybe a great historian in the sky, who provides them with history books and such. But here I am just guessing, so would you mind telling me what those non-artifact sources for uncovering history are?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hammered: There is no african world history to distort. these people are all screwballs. Putting this afrocrap on here is a waste of cyber space.
LOL Keep repeating your nonsense if it makes you feel better "professor", but it is a known FACT that Egypt which is located in Africa is the product of indigenous i.e. black Africans and is very much African, and that Euronuts like you with a desire to promulgate the lie of black inferiority and white supremacy have distorted Egypt's history even if it means contradicting their own European documentation of Egyptians being black since ancient times as well as the Bible!
quote: nothing about Nefertiti looks african to anyone except you king.
Then again, you said the same thing about Tut's bust. So it's not like your word means anything.
Posts: 26353 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the desperate, pleading lyingass: Wally,
Djehuti who is very black mentally says that none of the above statues are fake and that they just have some paint fading or in the case of Nefertiti, a symbolic approach to the coloring.
What do you say to this?
Would you consider reversing your opinion based on young Djehuti's revelations?
LOL So now I'm "black mentally". I suppose Truthcentric and King are also, even though they're white! You on the other hand are pretending to be a black African having the avatar of a black woman yet we all know you're a crazy anti-black, anti-African, white chick who doesn't know a thing about Africa or its peoples! What does that make YOU mentally? I say very disturbed.
In the case of the Nefertiti bust, I never said the coloring was of the yellow symbolism since such symbolism is NOT shown on painted bust portraiture, but rather paint that has faded! The fact that color doesn't match up to reality can be found in the very fact that even Egyptologists suspected forgery when it was first discovered.
Posts: 26353 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: I agree with Djehuti on his analysis of the controversial Berlin bust of Nefertiti. The anomaly however, that exists with this bust is its coloration which is totally inconsistent with the Amarna art movement: women were equal to men and were no longer to be portrayed as weak (yellow) but as strong (brown). The repainting of Nefertiti took place in Germany where it was probably reasoned that "who knows anything about Ikhnaten's revolution..."
I disagree with your notion of the color symbolism. I believe the symbolic yellow in women may represent something else than 'weakness', perhaps even a religious or spiritual connotation that is feminine as I've read in a couple of books years ago. Regardless, I seriously doubt the bust was repainted at all. Such a defacement could easily be detected by analyzing the new paint. It is more likely the original dark paint was faded off (either naturally with time or intentionally by human hands). I do find it peculiar that paint on the headdress and eye brows etc. are not faded at all but the skin is. Again, I have seen photos of the bust in certain lighting showing traces of darker paint. Older photos from decades ago show this more so than recent ones.
The traces of paint on the bust remind me of that on wall paintings of Nefertari wife of Ramses.
^ The traces are seen around the cheek neck and nose. Similarly, the traces I've seen on the bust are on the eyelids, ears, and a few streaks here and there on the face.
I don't know if the equal brown portrayal of women has anything to do with the Amarna period since women not depicted in symbolic yellow has been around long before in earlier periods of the 18th dynasty and even before that. I believe it is just the convention that when a painted bust is made of a royal, then that royals true complexion has to be portrayed as well, no symbolism.
Amarna art
quote:I can foresee a problem for the Arab Republic of Egypt when the reality of this alteration of its most widely disseminated 'relic' hits the fan, and it will...
LOL I already see a problem with some nutty whites here in America. I wonder what the lyingass, nonproven, simpleton, or hammered will say about all these images above that so obviously portray black Africans.
Posts: 26353 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: [qb] Btw, I am not in here arguing that it was a forgery either (just not original) as that kind of thing to me, with all due respect to Wally et al, is a futile exercise and in my opinion, simply not an important area of research.
Discovered Artifacts and Texts, are the ONLY means of uncovering, piecing-together, cataloging, and understanding history.
Straw man. I'm talking about scanning such artifacts in an attempt to establish which ones are fake, frauds, etc.. Proof of that sort will remain elusive and all opinions to that effect remain highly subjective. Have no idea why you felt the need to go on a tangent, and indeed, "texts" and "artifacts" are no where near the "ONLY" data required for a proper understanding of history (especially African history). At least be more on point with your criticism.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Straw man. I'm talking about scanning such artifacts in an attempt to establish which ones are fake, frauds, etc.. Proof of that sort will remain elusive and all opinions to that effect remain highly subjective. Have no idea why you felt the need to go on a tangent, and indeed, "text" and "artifacts" are no where near the "ONLY" this require for a proper understanding of history. At least be more on point with your criticism.
I think that you might want to think a little longer before you respond.
Logically, if an artifact is a fraud, or has been changed, then it has no historical meaning, therefore it is worthless.
You say that text" and "artifacts" are no where near the "ONLY" way to piece together history. Yet once again, you fail to say what else there is. Do you properly understand the question?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: I think that you might want to think a little longer before you respond.
Logically, if an artifact is a fraud, or has been changed, then it has no historical meaning, therefore it is worthless.
Mike, that isn't the point. If searching for "fakes", which are few and far between, was such an "important" area of research then why is only such an examination carried out to the end of racial polemics? Never is there a systematic analysis done to establish which Egyptian artifacts are fake because it isn't a big deal out side of some paranoid circles. This is why Keita doesn't deal with sculpture at all.
quote:You say that text" and "artifacts" are no where near the "ONLY" way to piece together history. Yet once again, you fail to say what else there is.
If you were educated to any degree in modern research methods I wouldn't need to.
I know the brother is trying, but the first is kind of stupid. I mean if there are no artifacts, then how is Archaeology gonna help?
Archaeology, or archeology, is the study of past human societies, primarily through the recovery and analysis of the material culture and environmental data which they have left behind, which includes artifacts, architecture, biofacts and cultural landscapes.
historical linguistics - If you live in America, then chances are you speak English, what does that tell you about ancient America?
oral traditions - Same as above.
Ethnobotany - is the scientific study of the relationships that exist between people and plants.
Really? This is going to tell history?
Sundjata - My point is that neither you nor Mr. Philips are sufficiently prepared, for discussions regarding what is and is not of value in gathering and compiling history. You might want to listen more, and talk less.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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^Oh please. Your amateurish attempt at saving face is disgusting. Your criticism of the research methods of not just Philips, but of the various contributors (who just happen to be the modern heavy weights of African research, a.k.a., Keita, Ehret, Hunwick, Mcintosh, etc) is equivalent to a possum trying to fight his way out of a corner agianst a pack of ninjas. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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As you can see, Sundjata and her type, are stuck in sub-Sahara culture, still trying to figure out if the White man is a God or not.
Meanwhile, he is inundating the rest of the world with his fake artifacts and history, so as to assert his superiority and dominance.
To those like Sundjata, who don't understand complicated things, it has no meaning. But we know that it is important, so keep it up, and pay them no mind, they wouldn't understand anyway. So just pass them by.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the desperate, pleading lyingass: Wally,
Djehuti who is very black mentally says that none of the above statues are fake and that they just have some paint fading or in the case of Nefertiti, a symbolic approach to the coloring.
What do you say to this?
Would you consider reversing your opinion based on young Djehuti's revelations?
LOL So now I'm "black mentally". I suppose Truthcentric and King are also, even though they're white! You on the other hand are pretending to be a black African having the avatar of a black woman yet we all know you're a crazy anti-black, anti-African, white chick who doesn't know a thing about Africa or its peoples! What does that make YOU mentally? I say very disturbed.
In the case of the Nefertiti bust, I never said the coloring was of the yellow symbolism since such symbolism is NOT shown on painted bust portraiture, but rather paint that has faded! The fact that color doesn't match up to reality can be found in the very fact that even Egyptologists suspected forgery when it was first discovered.
Djehuti, you Truthcentric and King are honorary black people. You are more black than Truthcentic I would say you are honorary Nubian and Truthcentric is honorary Fulani. Anyway:
What is your opinion of the below sculpture?
1) real
2) fake
3) real but tampered with on modern times
.
I'm asking Djehuti all you other negroes fall back until he answers
Posts: 43007 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^If he said that a Martian made it, to reflect a Martian family, it would make no difference. You still wouldn't be able to argue anything factual or logical to the contrary - you're a troll!
Trolls don't know sh1t, they just post whatever nonsense that comes into their empty heads. So though your dare sounds brave, it has no meaning.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^If he said that a Martian made it, to reflect a Martian family, it would make no difference. You still wouldn't be able to argue anything factual or logical to the contrary - you're a troll!
Trolls don't know sh1t, they just post whatever nonsense that comes into their empty heads. So though your dare sounds brave, it has no meaning.
Don't worry It's Djehuti is going to tell us what the deal is with this statue, he's better than you.
Posts: 43007 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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And wally et al, if the bust is a copy or forgery then why would the outer facade be retouched with ancient paint
The fact that it WAS retouched renders it unauthentic, namely the outer facade. The facial features are not out of character for an ancient Egyptian/NE African female, however, the skin complexion is and this has nothing to do with "females being traditionally lighter because they stayed out of the sun". Say that out loud and listen to it. It sounds stupid and makes no sense unless you assume that AE men tanned more than other populations, and year round/24/7 (that they had a default tan that expressed its self every single time they painted each other). Who'd deny the darker shade of brown as their 'natural' skin color which when not idealized would be no different than women, as shown in most of Armana art depicting males and females as the same (equal; no symbolism or idealism).
The differences between men and women portrayed in some of the scenes are so exaggerated one would be nothing short of an idiot to take them at face value (hopefully I'm not talking about you).
Btw, I am not in here arguing that it was a forgery either (just not original) as that kind of thing to me, with all due respect to Wally et al, is a futile exercise and in my opinion, simply not an important area of research.
Who claims the outer facade was retouched?
Why was it retouched with paint and retouched imperfectly
If it's retouched then they must have done a very good job with the paint but a poor job with the restoration of the ears, eyes & other parts of the bust. If it went under some kind of restoration process then why wasn't it fully restored?
@ Wally,
quote:Amarna art movement: women were equal to men and were no longer to be portrayed as weak (yellow) but as strong (brown)
Nefertiti and her daughters are conventionally portrayed as yellow while their male counterparts are portrayed as red.
I still believe women being portrayed as lighter than their darker male counterparts provides a true picture as to their skin color.
I believe the skin color of the Nefertiti bust is accurate.
What i don't believe is that the bust was retouched. And assuming it was retouched i believe it was retouched by none other than by the Ancients themselves.
quote: The facial features are not out of character for an ancient Egyptian/NE African female
I have never seen an East African woman or a black woman for that matter bear any resemblance to the Nefertiti bust, not even wally's selection of East African woman bears any striking resemblance.
you Afrocentrics at first denounced it claiming it was a Caucasian and fake along with the Swiss historian and now that the CT Scans prove its authenticity you cry the bust is retouched.
Posts: 175 | From: Who knows? | Registered: Jan 2009
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If it's retouched then they must have done a very good job with the paint but a poor job with the restoration of the ears, eyes & other parts of the bust. If it went under some kind of restoration process then why wasn't it fully restored?
If they made it look new, then even you would have smelled a Rat.
Nefertiti and her daughters are conventionally portrayed as yellow while their male counterparts are portrayed as red.
I still believe women being portrayed as lighter than their darker male counterparts provides a true picture as to their skin color.
Yes of course, that is why White men are a different color than White women. Ditto Mongols. How silly of us Black people not to know that.
I believe the skin color of the Nefertiti bust is accurate.
Yes of course you do: like all Albinos in denial, any proposition that will save you from Albinism is believable.
What i don't believe is that the bust was retouched. And assuming it was retouched i believe it was retouched by none other than by the Ancients themselves.
Yes, Black artists always try to make Black females look like White females. Now doesn't THAT make you feel good? (I have learned that it is best to humor White boys Dreaming)
I have never seen an East African woman or a black woman for that matter bear any resemblance to the Nefertiti bust, not even wally's selection of East African woman bears any striking resemblance.
Ah, I think the whole point of modifying the bust, was so that it WOULDN'T look like a Black woman.
you Afrocentrics at first denounced it claiming it was a Caucasian and fake along with the Swiss historian and now that the CT Scans prove its authenticity you cry the bust is retouched.
Ohhh, even for a White boy in denial and Dreaming, that's a good one. Even Lioness would have a hard time matching that - WOW. In one fell swoop, you managed to completely twist the facts beyond recognition - WOW!
Anyway, real SLOOOW; The CAT scan proves that the REAL Nefertiti bust, is UNDER the FAKE, White woman looking facade placed OVER it (the real bust), by lying, faking, pathetic, White people.
posted
A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception...incomplete information, "incorrect" dogma, stupidity, apperception, illusion, or other effects of perception.
Here's an example:
quote:Originally posted by Spiralman:
@ Wally,
quote:Amarna art movement: women were equal to men and were no longer to be portrayed as weak (yellow) but as strong (brown)
According to who, you pontificating Afrocentrics? http://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/4128218406/ From the tomb of Amarna Tomb of Meryre. Nefertiti and her daughters are conventionally portrayed as yellow while their male counterparts are portrayed as red. I still believe women being portrayed as lighter than their darker male counterparts provides a true picture as to their skin color.
...here's the referenced image...all the individuals are brown, and I see no yellow or red figures... and here's Tut and his queen (Amarna art)...
quote:I have never seen an East African woman or a black woman for that matter bear any resemblance to the Nefertiti bust, not even wally's selection of East African woman bears any striking resemblance.
that's funny, 'cause I thought everybody 'on the planet' has seen Michael Jackson's "Remember the Time" with Iman's dead-on resemblance to Nefertiti... TO WHICH NEFERET HAS AMPLY RESPONDED TO ABOVE
...and more pop culture: French film images of Ikhnaton and Nefertiti and family Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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Look a these two busts you posted at the top of this post. You say they are authentic. But Wally, they are similar to the more familiar Nefertiti bust in the graphic below entitled "Just who is is this chick Nefertiti?" The text says "she doesn't look Egyptian". Wally she looks similar and I'm not talking about the paint. I'm talking about the form. So this "she doesn't look Egyptian" remark could be applied to the firts two heads (left to right) at the top of this post
If you don't think they look similar to the famous one you must state why because they do look quite similar.
In fact Wally, the first two busts up here, top of this post, the ones you posted look more similar to the famous one below more than they do to the reconstruction.
In fact the computer graphic reconstruction with the big earrings looks less similar to the first busts you posted because the lower lip is wider and less curved on the bottom and the nose points down more. I think you will agree.
The reconstruction only looks more similar to the third bust and that third bust looks clearly different than the first two.
So some your own evidence is actually working against the it's fake theory, see what I mean?
Posts: 43007 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I seriously doubt that even you know what you mean.
This is fake sh|t...
These are real representations of Nefertiti, her husband, her offspring, and relatives of the royal Eighteenth dynastic family...
...and one of our resident loonies would pontificate that these east African ladies bear no resemblence to this ancient royal family! Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The fake Nazi sh|t is all you got junior - show another bust of Nefertiti with this coloration! I'll bet you a nickle and a cookie that you can't... I mean, even Zahi Hawass can't...
This is fake sh|t!
These are real representations of Nefertiti, her husband, her offspring, and relatives of the royal Eighteenth dynastic family...
...and one of our other resident loonies would pontificate that these east African ladies bear no resemblance to this ancient royal family!
...but let us not even leave Egypt; isn't this a clear proof of the race/ethnicity/phenotype ( the Raison d'ętre for Lioness, Spiralman, etc., being here to refute) of the Ancient Egyptian nationality... Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception...incomplete information, "incorrect" dogma, stupidity, apperception, illusion, or other effects of perception...........
"The anomaly however, that exists with this bust is its coloration which is totally inconsistent with the Amarna art movement: women were equal to men and were no longer to be portrayed as weak (yellow) but as strong (brown)"
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ...here's the referenced image...all the individuals are brown, and I see no yellow or red figures...
I was wrong to say they were Red figures.
Wally, Why are there Yellow figures being portrayed during this Amarna Art Movement?
Posts: 175 | From: Who knows? | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
^ LOL It's the New Year and you guys are still arguing over this sh|t?
First of all to Spiral, you are correct that the Amarna period does NOT mean women were no longer depicted yellow and the converse is true for Wally, even periods earlier than Amarna does not mean they were not depicted brown. And let's be real. The shade used to depict men is brown NOT 'red' and it is usually a mahogany to chocolate type brown.
I will say, that all BUST type portraiture shows no such yellow color symbolism. By the way, I find it funny Spiral that you consider the yellow color to be the "true" complexion of Egyptians yet not the brown.
To Wally, that bust has been studied for decades and while there is a more realistic depiction of Nefertiti within the visible bust, that does NOT mean the outside is a fraud. As Spiral has pointed out, there is no evidence whatsoever of paint being added. On the contrary, there is way more evidence of paint loss which again explains my theory of the color being faded.
Both of you guys (Wally & Spiral) are letting your biases get the best of you!
By the way Wally, you really need to update your website.
The reconstruction of the Younger Lady above is NOT Nefertiti but through recent DNA evidence is found to be not only the mother of Tutankhamun but the SISTER of Akhenaten.
Posts: 26353 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Somebody with compassion, please toss this guy Spiralman a lifebuoy or a lifeboat to all of his other historically challenged friends.
...does anyone here with visual acuity see anything other than Black folks represented here...see any 'Mediterranean Caucasoids' or 'European farmers' or quite simply White people?
== I mean where da White folks at, and where's another Nefertiti image which matches the Nazi version in coloration?
The fake Nazi sh|t is all you got junior - show another bust of Nefertiti with this coloration! I'll bet you a nickle and a cookie that you can't... I mean, even Zahi Hawass can't...
This is fake sh|t! Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way Wally, you really need to update your website. The reconstruction of the Younger Lady above is NOT Nefertiti but through recent DNA evidence is found to be not only the mother of Tutankhamun but the SISTER of Akhenaten.
Djehuti, You need to read carefully and not just skim... Here's what I also said on my website:
"Irrelevant Skepticism
This discovery has engendered the inevitable debate as to whether or not it is actually the remains of Queen Nefertiti. Whether or not it is the mummy of the celebrity queen or not is irrelevant. It is an Egyptian Royal mummy. This is what Ancient Egyptian royalty looked like. And that, quite simply, is the more important point."
...and stick around and it will be revealed that, like 'Tetisheri', etc., etc., that
This is fake sh|t! Posts: 3344 | From: Berkeley | Registered: Oct 2003
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