AND Why some "scholars" just can't be trusted is displayed below...
Hoggar Tuareg man (Algeria). Also called Hawara and anciently the Levathes or Ilagwaten "Mauri" of Tripolitania and the Pentapolis.
Libyan of the Ramessid era
The photo above direct from the museum web-site has been photoshop bleached out and posted all over the web for obvious reasons. This Libyan is the same complexion of Ramses and probably represents an ancient Tuareg.
Maure from the El Bardo Museum of Tunisia(Thank you for posting it).
The Mauri "curled their hair with hot irons" said the ancients.
These Algerian, Tunisian and Libyan "Berbers" Garawa or Jawara "Berbers" also known as Zaghawa, Azuagha, or Zuwagha, Bardaei or Berdoa and as Borgou or Barghu occupied Mzab, Syrtica, Wargla, Touggourt, Fezzan, Ghadames and the Aures, and were originally the same people Wangara (Soghai, Songhai or Zaghai/Zaghawa) traders of the Sudan. They carried the name Garama, Jerma, Germa and Garawan wherever they settled. There city of Jenne was said to have existed since the days of the Pharaohs.
Some scholars feel the Berghwata are the ancient Mauri Bacquates of Mauritania Tangintana, while the Bafur or Baffour are the "Mauri Bavares" or Babors.
They made up the majority of the Zenata Berbers, the Zaghawa portion of the Sanhaja and a considerable part of the ORIGINAL Masmuda (Barghuwata, Haskura, etc). They have been of course completely written out of history due to the European academic neglect of the "white slave trade".
Songhai chief
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb]- the origination of the Jerma Songhai/Garama i.e., Garawa, Wangara/Zaghai traders in salt and gold explains why Ptolemy the 2nd couldn't tell whether the Garamantes were Ethiopians or Libyans. They were great agriculturalists, and to a certain extent pastoral. They made stone bowls similar to culture of the ancient southeastern Sahara and were settled by the Tifinagh using Tuareg who still for the most part look down upon people who plough or agriculturalists.
The physical type found in the Garamantian area were similar to those of Nubians between the so'called Hamite or "Eurafrican" a name in Sergi's books for the Watusi, Tuareg and BaHima etc. and so- called "Negroids".
The Garamantes (Jerma) also built Meroitic type pyramids. (A. Ham Libya 2007, p. 30.)
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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You were gone for too long. This forum needs your ideas about Africans and Arabs to shine a light on who was regarded as Black or not.
Also Libya is home to many Berbers especially in the south. I even hear that Southern Libya is Majority Black if that is true, you only hope they don't support the racist rebels.
Keep up the Good work
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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You were gone for too long. This forum needs your ideas about Africans and Arabs to shine a light on who was regarded as Black or not.
Also Libya is home to many Berbers especially in the south. I even hear that Southern Libya is Majority Black if that is true, you only hope they don't support the racist rebels.
Keep up the Good work
Peace
King thanks. I'll be back for a while but have to finish work on my web-site celebrating the great Africanists whom I admire and am in the process of interviewing now.
Yes many of the people of the south of the modern Libya were once related to the peoples of Syrtica and the Tripolitanian area. In the south they are a mixture of the ancient Garawan and Teda/Tibbu and Tuareg. In the north most of these people were overrun and pushed southward by Europeans (a large number being of Roman and Syrian descent) and have mixed with Europeans. In the south there has been mixture with Iklan or black slaves coming from Meroe and other areas.
During the period of the Ramessids and Seti some of the Libyans appear to have mixed with peoples of the Sea. They retained their crossbands, kirtles and and other attire found anciently on pottery of C-group Nubia/ and Libyan peoples as in Kerma, the Wadi Howar and Gilf Kebir.
Their earliest names were Temhiu and Tehenu both of which became names for westerners in ancient Egypt by the intermediate period. I believe the northern people were the Fulani based on certain paintings I've seen while at the University of Chicago.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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The photo above direct from the museum web-site has been photoshop bleached out
how do you know?
Hi snake, I didn't say this one. Girl do you know how to twist things. Of course we don't know what you did to it though - now do we.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
North African roundup Originally posted by dana Marinche:
quote: King thanks. I'll be back for a while but have to finish work on my web-site celebrating the great Africanists whom I admire and am in the process of interviewing now.
^^What's your site? Also below is a North African roundup. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nubian, and Maghreb groups ( Aflaou, Taforalt) cluster together
"The African Epipaleolithic (Mesolithic) sample, comprising material from Nubia (Jebel Sahaba-sites 117 and 8905 and Wadi Haifa) and the Magreb (Afalou-bou-Rhummel and Taforalt), is quite homogenous both morphologically and metrically. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 96
Ancient "Asselar Man" from 'North Africa' - Mali, shows some resemblances to nearby Africans
"The bones are those of a man of late middle age, tall (1.70 metres or about 5 ft. 7 in.), distinctly Homo sapiens but not of 'Mediterranean' type. From the shape of the nasal and long bones it is clear that Asselar Man was some sort of negroid. The skull is dolichocephalic and has a high vault, whereas the rather short face is broad. There is marked alveolar-dental prognathism, ansd the mental eminence is well marked. The teeth are large and the third molar well developed. There was avulsion (i.e. 'knocking out') of the upper incisors, an ancient practice. The nearest living type to Asselar Man would seen to be that of the southern African Bantu-speaking peoples." -- Alan Houghton Brodrick. Man and his ancestors (1971)
----------------------------------
Data on ancient Indigenous North Africans
"The Caspian population, as known from skeletal remains from the burials in middens are less robust, and more gracile than the Mechta-Afalou peoples though they are undoubtedly descended from the.. Not a litte body mutilation is to he seen. This takes the form of incisor tooth extraction (also a feature of the Iberomaurusian), skulls that were modified after death by sawing, cutting and drilling, in one instance to form a kind of mask or 'trophy skull';" --History of humanity, Volume 6 By Sigfried J. de Laet, 1994
"Almost the entire region may have been depopulated as a result of extreme aridity. The first sign of people returning dates to around 18,000 t0 20,000 years ago, Mode 5 Epiplaeolithic industries that continue into the Holocene without any abrupt change. In relation to the origins of behavioral modernity and the symbolism question, there is not a lot of direct evidence. If there was a sudden change in behavior toward the end of the Middle Palaeolithic, it corresponds with the complete disappearance of people. On the other hand, the technological norms associated with the Aterian undoubtedly point to the emergence of an ethnic identity that could be expressed in material culture. It was the first true North African "culture" in the full range of its anthropological definition."
--P. Willoughby. 2006. The evolution of modern humans in Africa
Aterian shows some similarities with "sub Saharan" cultures
"Some researchers such as Debenath (1994) argue that the Aterian extends along the coast if Algeria and Morocco with sites decreasing in density farther inland. But Kleindienst suggests that this might be a product of the fact that most research has been done in the Maghreb. for her, there could be a link between the Aterian and the Lupemban industry of central and West Africa, where bifaces and occasional tanged pieces are present in other wise Middle Stone Age contests (Kleindienst 2001:6.9 Hawkins and Kleindienst 2002)."
--P. Willoughby. 2006. The evolution of modern humans in Africa
and
"The Aterian appeares to be a facies of the North African Middle Paleolithic and is characterized by tanged points and oter tools; bifacial points are known from some Aterian sites, notably in the eastern and southern areas, such as Bir Tarfawi in Egypt and Adrar Bous in Niger." -- Encyclopedia of human evolution and prehistory. 1999. Eric Delson, Ian Tattersall, John A. Van Couvering.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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The photo above direct from the museum web-site has been photoshop bleached out
how do you know?
Hi snake, I didn't say this one. Girl do you know how to twist things. Of course we don't know what you did to it though - now do we.
I will say the lyinass snake has somewhat of a point. Where did you get the info that the reddish foe in the middle is a Libyan instead of an Asiatic which most sources I read on the image say??
The not only the hook shape but the large size stereotypes the Asiatic in the middle whereas the ebony black foe in the left is Kushite, by method of elimination it is often said that the foe in the right is the Libyan.
The profile of the Tuareg man above reminds me of Ramses.
quote:Also Libya is home to many Berbers especially in the south. I even hear that Southern Libya is Majority Black if that is true, you only hope they don't support the racist rebels.
qadhaafi's son straightens this issue out. by the way most of the southern regions of the maghreban and egyptian countries are like this. watch from 8:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFigOpOBpxo
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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Straight from the horses mouth. Libyans are 50% black said Saif.
Thanks for this video It opens my eyes even more and shows that the rebels are that much racist against their own people.
You hope Unity wins out but we know that nato is afraid of allowing Gaddafi to run in elections because they know he would win. Sad really.
Peace
The whole thing about black mercenaries has always been an attempt to portray Libya as purely white Arab. Yes, there are black immigrants from other parts of Africa...but to deny that there are native black Libyans really exposes not only these so-called "rebels" but also al-Jazeera which seems to be pushing that little piece of psyops. There has always been an attempt to portray North Africa as not having any Blacks...we all know this. It's good to finally hear a number given. Half of Libya being black is a pretty big statement!!
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
^ Indeed this is all part of the silly age old propaganda to keep North Africa non-black as if blacks have never inhabited the region or still don't! It is absurd to say the least.
quote:Originally posted by alurubenson: qadhaafi's son straightens this issue out. by the way most of the southern regions of the maghreban and egyptian countries are like this. watch from 8:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFigOpOBpxo
I'm not surprised by Saif's comments. Qadaffi is defintely a tyrant but he and his family are obviously more honest about their intentions and honest in general than the Islamists that want to take over. Indeed Qadaffi as for all his evils was not a racist and openly acknowledge the black heritage of his country and all of North Africa.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The photo above direct from the museum web-site has been photoshop bleached out
how do you know?
Hi snake, I didn't say this one. Girl do you know how to twist things. Of course we don't know what you did to it though - now do we.
which photo are you saying is bleached out?
The photos i usually see are similar to the one posted by Djehuti above. The Abaza character posted one that was even more orange-red than mine and Djehutis. Mine came directly from a museum web-site so unlesss they have repainted it, the others are very much false depictions.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Hey, Dana. Long time, no see.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Libyan of the Ramessid era
The photo above direct from the museum web-site has been photoshop bleached out
how do you know?
Hi snake, I didn't say this one. Girl do you know how to twist things. Of course we don't know what you did to it though - now do we.
I will say the lyinass snake has somewhat of a point. Where did you get the info that the reddish foe in the middle is a Libyan instead of an Asiatic which most sources I read on the image say??
[/URL]
hey Djehuti - i will have to answer you fully tomorrow however will say the painting you have posted does not in my view look anything like the one I did. Especially in the nose. If you take my photo taken direct from a museum you can blow it up and see the complete fabrication that took place. Their is absolutely nothing in the nose of the Tuareg that is not in the nose of this "Libyan" or "Asiatic's". There is no hook on the Asiatic's nose. That in itself should have given away as you simply don't see that in the Egyptian art.
Blow it up and zoom into the picture and you will see that although the paint is missing below the nose someone deliberately has altered it. You will also see the imprint of the museum copyright. The head you posted looks almost cartoonish to me, and I would not put it past the owner of the site to have deliberately done something to it. Why is your post so much lighter than the one from the museum and a different color. One must be very careful of the kinds of sites one visits to post these pictures.
Lyin_ss likes to do this sort of thing - to retrieve her so called Libyans from laymen and most Euronut sites especially the ones that look like painted cartoons for the most part unlike the original wall art.
If the man is an Asiatic one can certainly not tell from his face. and since the Egyptians called the Medjayu and other people East of the Nile in Asia or peoples in Arabia "Aamu" It only adds credence to my view that Hyksos, Tuareg, Lubiyatta and the Arabians or Yemenites had some ethnic connection in the 2nd millenium B.C. Whatever the man is - he is in my opinion an ancestral Tuareg.
Alterations have been done with other "Libyans" posted on Egyptsearch and the Euronut sites that are sometimes or variously considered "Israelites" or "Hittites".
Ramses profile to me looks very much Fulani and Amharic or even Ababda. Not to play eyeball anthropologist but I think Coon was right when he said Ramses represented the Amhara type. I don't see the Tuareg similarity as much.
As for the thread - it looks very interesting and I will have to check it out this weekend. I will say I had written in Egypt Chiled of Africa about teh findings of certain scholars that the Mechta Afalou were directly related to Jebel Sahaba Nubians who later evolved into more gracile groups. I will have to locate the info.
The knowledge I think was based on genetically- determined traits of crania and dentition.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: North African roundup Originally posted by dana Marinche:
quote: King thanks. I'll be back for a while but have to finish work on my web-site celebrating the great Africanists whom I admire and am in the process of interviewing now.
^^What's your site? Also below is a North African roundup. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nubian, and Maghreb groups ( Aflaou, Taforalt) cluster together
"The African Epipaleolithic (Mesolithic) sample, comprising material from Nubia (Jebel Sahaba-sites 117 and 8905 and Wadi Haifa) and the Magreb (Afalou-bou-Rhummel and Taforalt), is quite homogenous both morphologically and metrically. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 96
Ancient "Asselar Man" from 'North Africa' - Mali, shows some resemblances to nearby Africans
"The bones are those of a man of late middle age, tall (1.70 metres or about 5 ft. 7 in.), distinctly Homo sapiens but not of 'Mediterranean' type. From the shape of the nasal and long bones it is clear that Asselar Man was some sort of negroid. The skull is dolichocephalic and has a high vault, whereas the rather short face is broad. There is marked alveolar-dental prognathism, ansd the mental eminence is well marked. The teeth are large and the third molar well developed. There was avulsion (i.e. 'knocking out') of the upper incisors, an ancient practice. The nearest living type to Asselar Man would seen to be that of the southern African Bantu-speaking peoples." -- Alan Houghton Brodrick. Man and his ancestors (1971)
----------------------------------
Data on ancient Indigenous North Africans
"The Caspian population, as known from skeletal remains from the burials in middens are less robust, and more gracile than the Mechta-Afalou peoples though they are undoubtedly descended from the.. Not a litte body mutilation is to he seen. This takes the form of incisor tooth extraction (also a feature of the Iberomaurusian), skulls that were modified after death by sawing, cutting and drilling, in one instance to form a kind of mask or 'trophy skull';" --History of humanity, Volume 6 By Sigfried J. de Laet, 1994
"Almost the entire region may have been depopulated as a result of extreme aridity. The first sign of people returning dates to around 18,000 t0 20,000 years ago, Mode 5 Epiplaeolithic industries that continue into the Holocene without any abrupt change. In relation to the origins of behavioral modernity and the symbolism question, there is not a lot of direct evidence. If there was a sudden change in behavior toward the end of the Middle Palaeolithic, it corresponds with the complete disappearance of people. On the other hand, the technological norms associated with the Aterian undoubtedly point to the emergence of an ethnic identity that could be expressed in material culture. It was the first true North African "culture" in the full range of its anthropological definition."
--P. Willoughby. 2006. The evolution of modern humans in Africa
Aterian shows some similarities with "sub Saharan" cultures
"Some researchers such as Debenath (1994) argue that the Aterian extends along the coast if Algeria and Morocco with sites decreasing in density farther inland. But Kleindienst suggests that this might be a product of the fact that most research has been done in the Maghreb. for her, there could be a link between the Aterian and the Lupemban industry of central and West Africa, where bifaces and occasional tanged pieces are present in other wise Middle Stone Age contests (Kleindienst 2001:6.9 Hawkins and Kleindienst 2002)."
--P. Willoughby. 2006. The evolution of modern humans in Africa
and
"The Aterian appeares to be a facies of the North African Middle Paleolithic and is characterized by tanged points and oter tools; bifacial points are known from some Aterian sites, notably in the eastern and southern areas, such as Bir Tarfawi in Egypt and Adrar Bous in Niger." -- Encyclopedia of human evolution and prehistory. 1999. Eric Delson, Ian Tattersall, John A. Van Couvering.
Hi Zarahan - i don't have the African history stuff up on my site yet. I am using my old site that I had for my magazine though. i will probably have some of it up there by the end of the summer.
I have been guiding people to your site though and hope to link with it when I get mine together.
Thanks for this great info on the connection between Capsians, Nubians, Mechtoids etc. It is more updated then what I have and shows the direct affiliation to paleolithic and early historic Nilotic people in Nubia and East Africa.
I just perused your info. and will need to read through it tomorrow thoroughly as the references you have are very necessary and as usual are indispensable. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: North African roundup Originally posted by dana Marinche:
quote: King thanks. I'll be back for a while but have to finish work on my web-site celebrating the great Africanists whom I admire and am in the process of interviewing now.
^^What's your site? Also below is a North African roundup. /5948/northafricadefinition.jpg[/IMG] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nubian, and Maghreb groups ( Aflaou, Taforalt) cluster together
"The African Epipaleolithic (Mesolithic) sample, comprising material from Nubia (Jebel Sahaba-sites 117 and 8905 and Wadi Haifa) and the Magreb (Afalou-bou-Rhummel and Taforalt), is quite homogenous both morphologically and metrically. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 96
This however flies in the face of more Eurocentric analyses being done by peoples like Maca Meyer, who as i am sure you are aware still look upon such people of Mechta Afalou as proto-Caucasoids of Iberian affinity.
It just shows that modern scholarship by Europeans is also controversial. The main focus has been on trying to relate haplotype U6 to ancient Caucasoids in north Africa and East Africa.
"U6 traces the first detectable Paleolithic return to Africa of ancient Caucasoid lineages. It has been mostly found in Northwest Africa, with a global estimated age of 47,000 years reflecting an old human continuity in that rather isolated area. The fact that in Europe it has only been detected in the Iberian Peninsula rules out a possible European route, unless a total lineage extinction in all the path is invoked. On the other hand, its presence in Northeast Africa [30], albeit in low frequencies, reinforces its way through North Africa.... Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times...... U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important ... The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib [see "Maghreb" ] returning to the east in Paleolithic times. "
Someone on this forum posted some retort to her hypotheses about U6 which I will have to locate and make a copy of. I myself question why there are such low frequencies of U6 among these obviously european related populations in North Africa. The samples she takes are from some of the well -known localities of the white slave trade such as Ifren in Meknes where thousands were brought in from France.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: If you take my photo taken direct from a museum you can blow it up and see the complete fabrication that took place.
how do you know it's a fabrication? Is this based on you blowing up stuff on the internet and scratching your head or do you have evidence?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
Not to play eyeball anthropologist but I think
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
If the man is an Asiatic one can certainly not tell from his face.
why not?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
There is no hook on the Asiatic's nose.
dana stop it
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
and since the Egyptians called the Medjayu and other people East of the Nile in Asia or peoples in Arabia "Aamu" It only adds credence to my view that Hyksos, Tuareg, Lubiyatta and the Arabians or Yemenites had some ethnic connection in the 2nd millenium B.C.
what do you mean by "ethnic connection" ?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Blow it up and zoom in
enough already
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
lioness likes to do this sort of thing - to retrieve her so called Libyans from laymen and most Euronut sites
Djehuti you messed up that Ramesses pic was too Euro, they lightened that whole shyt up
dana, quote a link to a thread post in which I used photos which are inaccurate.
posted
^ Lyinass dummy, pray tell where did I say the image of Ramses looked "Euro" or that "they lightened it up"??
Where or where is Dana a real female of intelligence instead of lyingass retards??
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: This however flies in the face of more Eurocentric analyses being done by peoples like Maca Meyer, who as i am sure you are aware still look upon such people of Mechta Afalou as proto-Caucasoids of Iberian affinity.
It just shows that modern scholarship by Europeans is also controversial. The main focus has been on trying to relate haplotype U6 to ancient Caucasoids in north Africa and East Africa.
"U6 traces the first detectable Paleolithic return to Africa of ancient Caucasoid lineages. It has been mostly found in Northwest Africa, with a global estimated age of 47,000 years reflecting an old human continuity in that rather isolated area. The fact that in Europe it has only been detected in the Iberian Peninsula rules out a possible European route, unless a total lineage extinction in all the path is invoked. On the other hand, its presence in Northeast Africa [30], albeit in low frequencies, reinforces its way through North Africa.... Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times...... U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important ... The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib [see "Maghreb" ] returning to the east in Paleolithic times. "
Someone on this forum posted some retort to her hypotheses about U6 which I will have to locate and make a copy of. I myself question why there are such low frequencies of U6 among these obviously european related populations in North Africa. The samples she takes are from some of the well -known localities of the white slave trade such as Ifren in Meknes where thousands were brought in from France.
Indeed. The same silly games Eurocentrics played with analyses of physical remains is now being played with genetics. I can't tell you how many times in my research on early or proto-Berbers I have stumbled across the outdated Cavilli-Sforza claims of proto-Berbers and even proto-Afrasian speakers of Africa having more relation to Southwest Asians and Europeans than to Sub-Saharans even though Sub-Saharans possess the greatest diversity of Afrasian languages. Not to mention the archaeological connections between Capsian and sub-Saharan East Africa. The whole Eurasian claims behind E1b1b paternal lineage were already exploded but now the Eurocentrics desperately cling to U6. Even though most estimates on the age of U6 coincide with the first humans settling Europe in the first place not to mention the fact that U6 in Southwest Asia is at very low frequency and diversity compared North Africa where it likely originated.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Lyinass dummy, pray tell where did I say the image of Ramses looked "Euro" or that "they lightened it up"??
Where or where is Dana a real female of intelligence instead of lyingass retards??
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: This however flies in the face of more Eurocentric analyses being done by peoples like Maca Meyer, who as i am sure you are aware still look upon such people of Mechta Afalou as proto-Caucasoids of Iberian affinity.
It just shows that modern scholarship by Europeans is also controversial. The main focus has been on trying to relate haplotype U6 to ancient Caucasoids in north Africa and East Africa.
"U6 traces the first detectable Paleolithic return to Africa of ancient Caucasoid lineages. It has been mostly found in Northwest Africa, with a global estimated age of 47,000 years reflecting an old human continuity in that rather isolated area. The fact that in Europe it has only been detected in the Iberian Peninsula rules out a possible European route, unless a total lineage extinction in all the path is invoked. On the other hand, its presence in Northeast Africa [30], albeit in low frequencies, reinforces its way through North Africa.... Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times...... U6, a maternal haplotype which originated in western Asia some 30,000 ago is very important ... The most probable origin of the proto-U6 lineage was the Near East. Around 30,000 years ago it spread to North Africa where it represents a signature of regional continuity. Subgroup U6a reflects the first African expansion from the Maghrib [see "Maghreb" ] returning to the east in Paleolithic times. "
Someone on this forum posted some retort to her hypotheses about U6 which I will have to locate and make a copy of. I myself question why there are such low frequencies of U6 among these obviously european related populations in North Africa. The samples she takes are from some of the well -known localities of the white slave trade such as Ifren in Meknes where thousands were brought in from France.
Indeed. The same silly games Eurocentrics played with analyses of physical remains is now being played with genetics. I can't tell you how many times in my research on early or proto-Berbers I have stumbled across the outdated Cavilli-Sforza claims of proto-Berbers and even proto-Afrasian speakers of Africa having more relation to Southwest Asians and Europeans than to Sub-Saharans even though Sub-Saharans possess the greatest diversity of Afrasian languages. Not to mention the archaeological connections between Capsian and sub-Saharan East Africa. The whole Eurasian claims behind E1b1b paternal lineage were already exploded but now the Eurocentrics desperately cling to U6. Even though most estimates on the age of U6 coincide with the first humans settling Europe in the first place not to mention the fact that U6 in Southwest Asia is at very low frequency and diversity compared North Africa where it likely originated.
"Clinging" is an understatement. lol!. I think people don't understand the first peoples to settle in Europe and the first true phenotypic and biological ancestors of modern Europeans were two different things. of course everyone comes Africa but there still seems to be acceptance of polygenetic theory by Euronuts and Afrocentrics brainwashed by them.
I'm not sure why academic people have such a hard time believing modern Europeans belong to one of many groups that once occupied Eurasia in the late Paleolithic, the bulk of them being Africoid or "Austric"-looking - so to speak. Maca Meyer is a good example of such thinking.
It is not impossible that one or more of these still tropical appearing groups came back into North Africa between the late Paleolithic and neolithic periods.
Most important Brace and others' studies is the fact that neolithic North Africans showed direct relationship to modern east Africans much more than they do southern Europeans or European-related people of the coastal North African area. They also found the neolithic North African to be more related to Mechtoids and related people in paleothic Europe.
The psychological block people have against the increasingly overwhelming evidence of these facts is bewildering to say the least.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ Any relation to southern Europeans is simply due to the fact that such southern Europeans themselves possess North African ancestry! At least in this regard that part of Sergei's Mediterranean "brown race" thesis is correct. This is further supported by genetics showing African genes etc. in southern Europeans.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Any relation to southern Europeans is simply due to the fact that such southern Europeans themselves possess North African ancestry! At least in this regard that part of Sergei's Mediterranean "brown race" thesis is correct. This is further supported by genetics showing African genes etc. in southern Europeans.
That's a fact and simply put statement but as we know certain people want to make what is plain truth into a complex lie - wasting everybody's time in attempts to confuse the issue. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lady of doom: Does anybody think that the Berbers in Egypt could be the true Berbers?
If you are talking about the Barbara of Nubia in modern Egypt, they are just one of them. But I don't know which ones you are talking about.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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If you are talking about the Barbara of Nubia in modern Egypt, they are just one of them. But I don't know which ones you are talking about. [QUOTE] [QUOTE] [QUOTE]
Yea I was talking about the Siwi.
Posts: 78 | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote: Originally posted by KoKaKoLa They are not berbers, genetically speaking. they dont carry the E-M81 marker, common to Berbers. [QUOTE]
Actually they are, they carry M78..
M81 arose in Northwest Africa I believe, M78 arouse between the Sudan and Egypt.
M81 is nothing but a mutation to M78 not only that the Siwi speak protoBeber thus making them 1 of the original Berbers that spread the Berber language from East to west.
Posts: 78 | Registered: Aug 2011
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: I dont understand why Dana is always trying to give a "black" apparence to everybody. From the arabs to the berbers.
this is how the berbers have been represented during the XIX dynasty
I don't believe in cartoon renditions by Europeans.
YOU LOSE!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ The problem with ignoramuses Koo-koo kola nuts is they don't know the difference between inaccurate renditions and authentic ancient artwork.
Here is an actual photo of a whole group of Libyans from the XIX dynasty!
As you can see from the traces of paint they weren't exactly as pale as she believes! Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The problem with ignoramuses Koo-koo kola nuts is they don't know the difference between inaccurate renditions and authentic ancient artwork.
Here is an actual photo of a whole group of Libyans from the XIX dynasty!
As you can see from the traces of paint they weren't exactly as pale as she believes!
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The problem with ignoramuses Koo-koo kola nuts is they don't know the difference between inaccurate renditions and authentic ancient artwork.
Here is an actual photo of a whole group of Libyans from the XIX dynasty!
As you can see from the traces of paint they weren't exactly as pale as she believes!
Are they Rebu Libyan?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The problem with ignoramuses Koo-koo kola nuts is they don't know the difference between inaccurate renditions and authentic ancient artwork.
Here is an actual photo of a whole group of Libyans from the XIX dynasty!
As you can see from the traces of paint they weren't exactly as pale as she believes!
Better yet here is some more additional artwork from Sahures pyramid complex from the old kingdom depicting darker skinned Tehenu Libyan.
They aren't depicted as pale as the Temehu and Meshwesh are depicted from the New Kingdom.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
More importantly, How do we know the Libyans depicted to the east of the Nile or at the coast are linguistically-ethnically Berber and not a different wandering group indigenous to the Sahara?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Great find, the Tehenu photo from Sahure! Only have seen etchings up to now! This no doubt is one of the color images behind Bates' declaration "the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun,". More please.
According to Bates the few ethnic names surviving from Old Kingdom to classical time make Berber an unknown until then. He did however draw up a list of just 18 primitive Berber root words paralleled in Egyptian. We need a currently composed comparative vocabulary list for certainty about borrowings or even words shared throughout their parent super-phylum.
This map from Kay Williams' article Western African Languages in Historical Perspective doesn't propose Berber in Tehenu Libya until ~2000 BCE and calls it North Temehu Berber.
So no positive evidence for pre-dynastic western delta and adjacent populations nor Old and Middle Kingdom Tehenu speaking Berber until overrun by Meshwesh in the 19th Dynasty.
The Temehu may be a different story if they indeed are the people implied by Harkhuf's "land of Temeh." Otherwise Tamehu arise later in the New Kingdom. I have come to doubt Tamahu being a specific ethny and think it a New Kingdom generic for any and all Libyan peoples from 20th Dynasty times onward.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The problem with ignoramuses Koo-koo kola nuts is they don't know the difference between inaccurate renditions and authentic ancient artwork.
Here is an actual photo of a whole group of Libyans from the XIX dynasty!
As you can see from the traces of paint they weren't exactly as pale as she believes!
Nice try, but you obviously missed my point that the paint is FADED and was originally much darker. You can even see darker hues on the faces, dummy. LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't know. I thought Rebu or Libu was a generic name for all Libyans at that time. All I know is that the painting comes from the XIX dynasty which is the period commonly cited as the era of the fair-skinned Berbers.
quote: Better yet here is some more additional artwork from Sahures pyramid complex from the old kingdom depicting darker skinned Tehenu Libyan.
They aren't depicted as pale as the Temehu and Meshwesh are depicted from the New Kingdom.
There is reason to believe the Old Kingdom Libyans were not the same as the New Kingdom ones. And while there may very well have been pale types among the Meshwesh and Temehu I don't think they were as prominent as many scholars have lead us to believe. More and more I am seeing pictures of New Kingdom Libyans with remnants of darker paint. This makes me question the existence of fair types among them altogether! I have even noticed that depictions of the Sea Peoples likely had darker complexions than many believe.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Great find, the Tehenu photo from Sahure! Only have seen etchings up to now! This no doubt is one of the color images behind Bates' declaration "the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun,". More please.
According to Bates the few ethnic names surviving from Old Kingdom to classical time make Berber an unknown until then. He did however draw up a list of just 18 primitive Berber root words paralleled in Egyptian. We need a currently composed comparative vocabulary list for certainty about borrowings or even words shared throughout their parent super-phylum.
This map from Kay Williams' article Western African Languages in Historical Perspective doesn't propose Berber in Tehenu Libya until ~2000 BCE and calls it North Temehu Berber.
So no positive evidence for pre-dynastic western delta and adjacent populations nor Old and Middle Kingdom Tehenu speaking Berber until overrun by Meshwesh in the 19th Dynasty.
The Temehu may be a different story if they indeed are the people implied by Harkhuf's "land of Temeh." Otherwise Tamehu arise later in the New Kingdom. I have come to doubt Tamahu being a specific ethny and think it a New Kingdom generic for any and all Libyan peoples from 20th Dynasty times onward.
Is not the name 'Temehu' of Berber origin? I have noticed that the word 'Tama' is a common prefix among names of Amazigh (Berber) peoples; for example the Kel Tamashek of the Tuareg.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Actually Tamasheq breaks down as ta masheq where masheq is the equivalent of Mazigh/Mazices derived supposedly from Meshwesh and if so lends credit to Meshwesh spreading Berber eastward to the Tehenu and possibly the Ammonians/Siwa going by that map.
But I have no idea if the word Temehu is of Berber origin. The commonly accepted speculation is that it derives from an Egyptian word for a certain land/stone t-m-hh/t-m-hh-y.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ Thanks for the info. So does 'Ta' have the same meaning for land like in Egyptian or does it specify something else?
Also judging by Williams' map, the early Tehenu Libyans must have spoken some other language than Berber. If that is so, do you think this language has something to do with the Egyptian subfamily?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't know. I thought Rebu or Libu was a generic name for all Libyans at that time. All I know is that the painting comes from the XIX dynasty which is the period commonly cited as the era of the fair-skinned Berbers.
quote: Better yet here is some more additional artwork from Sahures pyramid complex from the old kingdom depicting darker skinned Tehenu Libyan.
They aren't depicted as pale as the Temehu and Meshwesh are depicted from the New Kingdom.
There is reason to believe the Old Kingdom Libyans were not the same as the New Kingdom ones. And while there may very well have been pale types among the Meshwesh and Temehu I don't think they were as prominent as many scholars have lead us to believe. More and more I am seeing pictures of New Kingdom Libyans with remnants of darker paint. This makes me question the existence of fair types among them altogether! I have even noticed that depictions of the Sea Peoples likely had darker complexions than many believe.
Actually I've been thinking the same thing Djehuti. lol! Thank you for this later bas relief I have never seen it before.
There is an Old Kingdom painting that I've seen however that were much browner and with aquiline Fulani or Woodabe type profiles and hair. still looking for it. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Great find, the Tehenu photo from Sahure! Only have seen etchings up to now! This no doubt is one of the color images behind Bates' declaration "the Libyan in earlier Egyptian art is regularly a brun,". More please.
According to Bates the few ethnic names surviving from Old Kingdom to classical time make Berber an unknown until then. He did however draw up a list of just 18 primitive Berber root words paralleled in Egyptian. We need a currently composed comparative vocabulary list for certainty about borrowings or even words shared throughout their parent super-phylum.
This map from Kay Williams' article Western African Languages in Historical Perspective doesn't propose Berber in Tehenu Libya until ~2000 BCE and calls it North Temehu Berber.
So no positive evidence for pre-dynastic western delta and adjacent populations nor Old and Middle Kingdom Tehenu speaking Berber until overrun by Meshwesh in the 19th Dynasty.
The Temehu may be a different story if they indeed are the people implied by Harkhuf's "land of Temeh." Otherwise Tamehu arise later in the New Kingdom. I have come to doubt Tamahu being a specific ethny and think it a New Kingdom generic for any and all Libyan peoples from 20th Dynasty times onward.
Is not the name 'Temehu' of Berber origin? I have noticed that the word 'Tama' is a common prefix among names of Amazigh (Berber) peoples; for example the Kel Tamashek of the Tuareg.
Yes - Tamashek is related to the word Mashek or Mazikes of the Roman era a name originally for one of the Berber branches. It has been adopted by other Berber-speaking peoples in the last 100 years; since the colonial era.
Maazawazaou (or Meshwesh) sounds like a modern Tuareg first name though.
I found this little interested tidbit below with the Karrayu Oromo warriors of Ethiopia wearing the Temehu hairstyle with feathers. Thought it was just Beja that did this.
Notice at 1:50, 3:03 in the video the Temehou look with Libyan feathers.
Here is the Libyan supposed to be represented by the cartoonish rendition Lyin A__ continuously posts.
artists rendition of Temehou wall relief
As a little diddy for kids goes here in the U.S.
"one of these things is not like the other one of these things just doesn't belong can you tell which one is not like the other before I finish my ..."
Another photo the lyin a__ posts which she thinks is proof Libyans were more like hairsute Middle Easterners.
Faded painting probably meant to be a full blooded Fulani with his distinctly Fulani (i.e. Libyan) hairstyle
A European copyist's rendition of ancient Temehou wearing tiny cornrow plaits no where to be found in Egyptian painting?
But since they want to be picky and go there... Tuareg mulatto who could be a descendant of the directly above.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Also Libya is home to many Berbers especially in the south. I even hear that Southern Libya is Majority Black if that is true, you only hope they don't support the racist rebels.
qadhaafi's son straightens this issue out. by the way most of the southern regions of the maghreban and egyptian countries are like this. watch from 8:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFigOpOBpxo
Thanks alu - and I think you meant 9:44. where he says half of our population is black.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Islam, Peace, and Greetings to all on the thread. I am here as a fan of Mrs. Marniche's works and seeking to open up a dialog with her generally but particularly on a point mentioned in my research about the Musullamii. I did not understand the reason for the rendition of the name in Golden Age of the Moor and therefore, I do question such in my note. I will introduce myself here with my own elementary research on the Berbers:
“Strabo mentions the Nubians as a great race west of the Nile. They came originally from Kordofan, whence they emigrated two thousand years ago. They have rejected the name Nubas as it has become synonymous with slave. They call themselves Barabra, their ancient race name. Sanskrit historians call the Old Race of the Upper Nile Barabra. These Nubians have become slightly modified but are still plainly Negroid. They look like the Wawa on the Egyptian monuments.” [27]
“Baedecker describes them as strong, muscular, agricultural and more warlike and energetic than Egyptians. Keane says the Nubians excel in moral qualities. They are by his description obviously Negroid, very dark with full lips and dreamy eyes. They have the narrow heads which are the cranial formation of Ethiopia. Race may be told by shape of the skull far better than by color or feature, which are modified by climate. The members of the Tartar race have perfectly rounded skulls. The head of the Ethiopian races is very elongated. Europeans have an intermediate skull. The cranial formation of unmixed races never changes. Keane concludes by saying, "All Barbara have wooly hair with scant beards like the figures of Negroes on the walls of the Egyptian temples." The race of the Old Empire approached closely to this type.”[28]
"In the oldest recorded traditions, Cushite colonies were established in the valley of the Nile, Barabra and Chaldea. This beginning must have been not later than 7000 or 8000 B. C. or perhaps earlier. They brought to development astronomy and the other sciences, which have come down to us. The vast commercial system by which they joined together the "ends of the earth" was created and manufacturing skill established. The great period of Cushite control had closed many ages prior to Homer, although separate communities remained not only in Egypt but in southern Arabia, Phoenicia and elsewhere."[29]
“According to Dr. Pritchard, it is probable that the Barabra may be an offshoot from the original stock that first peopled Egypt and Nubia. It was the Old Race of the higher civilization that ruled Egypt in the pre-dynastic ages. It was from this nation went forth the colonies that spread civilization. This old race of the Upper Nile, the Agu or Anu of the ancient traditions, spread their arts from Egypt to the Ægean, from Sicily to Italy and Spain. Mosso Angelo says that the characteristic decorations on the pottery of the Mediterranean race of prehistoric times is identical with that of pre-dynastic Egypt. Reisner in 1899 examined 1200 tombs in the Nile valley. He found the remains of a distinct race who buried their dead with legs doubled up against abdomen and thorax. This was an old Ethiopian form of burial, which preceeded embalming and may be traced through ancient Cushite lands.” [30]
Barabra is an old ethnographical term for the Nubian peoples of Sudan and southern Egypt. The word is variously derived from Berberi, i.e. Berber people, or described as identical with Barabara, figuring in the inscription on a gateway of Tethmosis I, as the name of one of the 113 tribes conquered by him. In a later inscription of Rameses II at Karnak (1300 B.C.), Beraberata is given as the name of a southern conquered people. Thus it is suggested that Barabra is a real ethnical name, confused later with Greek and Roman barbarus, and revived in its proper meaning subsequent to the Moslem conquest. A tribe living on the banks of the Nile between Wadi Haifa and Assuan are called Barabra.” [31] This negates Wayne B. Chandler's, Chancellor Williams, and many others, and their meaning of Berber and those who equate it with the Roman word for Barbarian. Berber is an original name just passed down to us in the form we pronounce it today. This writer offers a challenge to refute any of the above.
27 Ibid, Houston, pg. 34 28 Ibid, Houston, pg. 34 29 Baldwin, pp. 95-96 30 Ibid, Houston, pg. 49 31 Chisholm, Hugh, ed (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (Eleventh ed.). Cambridge
The above is taken from note entitled OLD MAN CUSH, HIS FATHER HAM, AND THE ANCIENT LAND OF CANAAN, AN EXEGESIS By Lord Abba El
I look forward to a reply from the group.Love and Peace.
Posts: 6 | From: Georgia | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
Here is the link to that note which is an exegetical interpretation of what is my religious text, namely the HOLY KORAN OF THE MOORISH SCIENCE TEMPLE OF AMERICA which is distinct from the Koran of Mohammad. Peace
-------------------- "Moors, you are home, it is the European who is 3000 miles from home and he is going to have to take some water." ~ Prophet Noble Drew Ali (PBUH) Posts: 6 | From: Georgia | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by MOORISH AMERICAN: Islam, Peace, and Greetings to all on the thread. I am here as a fan of Mrs. Marniche's works and seeking to open up a dialog with her generally but particularly on a point mentioned in my research about the Musullamii. I did not understand the reason for the rendition of the name in Golden Age of the Moor and therefore, I do question such in my note. I will introduce myself here with my own elementary research on the Berbers:
“Strabo mentions the Nubians as a great race west of the Nile. They came originally from Kordofan, whence they emigrated two thousand years ago. They have rejected the name Nubas as it has become synonymous with slave. They call themselves Barabra, their ancient race name. Sanskrit historians call the Old Race of the Upper Nile Barabra. These Nubians have become slightly modified but are still plainly Negroid. They look like the Wawa on the Egyptian monuments.” [27]
“Baedecker describes them as strong, muscular, agricultural and more warlike and energetic than Egyptians. Keane says the Nubians excel in moral qualities. They are by his description obviously Negroid, very dark with full lips and dreamy eyes. They have the narrow heads which are the cranial formation of Ethiopia. Race may be told by shape of the skull far better than by color or feature, which are modified by climate. The members of the Tartar race have perfectly rounded skulls. The head of the Ethiopian races is very elongated. Europeans have an intermediate skull. The cranial formation of unmixed races never changes. Keane concludes by saying, "All Barbara have wooly hair with scant beards like the figures of Negroes on the walls of the Egyptian temples." The race of the Old Empire approached closely to this type.”[28]
"In the oldest recorded traditions, Cushite colonies were established in the valley of the Nile, Barabra and Chaldea. This beginning must have been not later than 7000 or 8000 B. C. or perhaps earlier. They brought to development astronomy and the other sciences, which have come down to us. The vast commercial system by which they joined together the "ends of the earth" was created and manufacturing skill established. The great period of Cushite control had closed many ages prior to Homer, although separate communities remained not only in Egypt but in southern Arabia, Phoenicia and elsewhere."[29]
“According to Dr. Pritchard, it is probable that the Barabra may be an offshoot from the original stock that first peopled Egypt and Nubia. It was the Old Race of the higher civilization that ruled Egypt in the pre-dynastic ages. It was from this nation went forth the colonies that spread civilization. This old race of the Upper Nile, the Agu or Anu of the ancient traditions, spread their arts from Egypt to the Ægean, from Sicily to Italy and Spain. Mosso Angelo says that the characteristic decorations on the pottery of the Mediterranean race of prehistoric times is identical with that of pre-dynastic Egypt. Reisner in 1899 examined 1200 tombs in the Nile valley. He found the remains of a distinct race who buried their dead with legs doubled up against abdomen and thorax. This was an old Ethiopian form of burial, which preceeded embalming and may be traced through ancient Cushite lands.” [30]
Barabra is an old ethnographical term for the Nubian peoples of Sudan and southern Egypt. The word is variously derived from Berberi, i.e. Berber people, or described as identical with Barabara, figuring in the inscription on a gateway of Tethmosis I, as the name of one of the 113 tribes conquered by him. In a later inscription of Rameses II at Karnak (1300 B.C.), Beraberata is given as the name of a southern conquered people. Thus it is suggested that Barabra is a real ethnical name, confused later with Greek and Roman barbarus, and revived in its proper meaning subsequent to the Moslem conquest. A tribe living on the banks of the Nile between Wadi Haifa and Assuan are called Barabra.” [31] This negates Wayne B. Chandler's, Chancellor Williams, and many others, and their meaning of Berber and those who equate it with the Roman word for Barbarian. Berber is an original name just passed down to us in the form we pronounce it today. This writer offers a challenge to refute any of the above.
27 Ibid, Houston, pg. 34 28 Ibid, Houston, pg. 34 29 Baldwin, pp. 95-96 30 Ibid, Houston, pg. 49 31 Chisholm, Hugh, ed (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (Eleventh ed.). Cambridge
The above is taken from note entitled OLD MAN CUSH, HIS FATHER HAM, AND THE ANCIENT LAND OF CANAAN, AN EXEGESIS By Lord Abba El
I look forward to a reply from the group.Love and Peace.
Hi there - sorry I haven't been bag to this posting. in any case i wasn't sure exactly what u were asking with regard to the Musulami or Massyles. I only remember that some scholars suspect ancient Romans like Pliny used the name Musulami and Mussulini of Numidia for those people that were otherwise called Massyles (mentioned by the Greek Strabo, Silius Italicus) in ancient North Africa or Numidia.
As for the rest of what you said I agree the name "Nubian" as used by Strabo and the Greeks refers to the Noba or Nobatae (Anoubades) a group in present day Sudan - not to be confused with modern Nuba though.
Also Baribari (Berber or Berabir) or Bari is well known as a name for African ethnics and a dialect (such as Bideyat or Zaghawa) since ancient times that has nothing to do with the Greek term of "Barbarian" meaning to speak an unknown dialect. The words are spelled differently. This has been pointed out by Western scholars. The term Berber, is first used in the periplus of the Erythraean Sea for peoples in the area of the Afar/Danakil, and Somali regions.
Next time if I don't answer you can always leave a private message.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Thanks for the info. So does 'Ta' have the same meaning for land like in Egyptian or does it specify something else?
Also judging by Williams' map, the early Tehenu Libyans must have spoken some other language than Berber. If that is so, do you think this language has something to do with the Egyptian subfamily?
Ta is used to prefix areas as in early Nilotic region Ta Setiu, Ta mery. The prefix can be seen as similar to that in Tamashek or Tuareg dialects. Ta nit(belonging to Neith, Ti-finagh (belonging to Pheonicians) Ta Mashek is the name of the Tuareg dialect and means belonging to the Mashek or Mazikh people.
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