posted
This thread is about Lazaridis et al.'s actual study http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6639 revised 2 Apr 2014 (version, v2) for ESers' comments, original analyses, and critiques.
This thread is not for the DNAtribes version which's had ample airing in several threads since December.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
p.143 (SI p.102) We conclude that (i) gene flow into the Karitiana originated from a basal West Eurasian population and (ii) Neolithic farmers such as Stuttgart had admixture from a Basal Eurasian population is consistent with the evidence. ... We should caution that this population is termed “Basal Eurasian” on account of its phylogenetic position in the model (basal to all Eurasian groups and contributing only to Stuttgart), but its geographical distribution in the past is unknown. Fitted parameters, however, indicate that Basal Eurasians share with other Eurasians most of the (Mbuti->non_African) genetic drift associated with “Out-of-Africa” populations.
Note that Basal Eurasian and a few other names are "ghost" i.e., statistic derived, hypothetical, i.e., model populations.
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Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup N in India, Based on Complete Sequencing: Implications for the Peopling of South Asia Malliya gounder Palanichamy*, Chang Sun*, Suraksha Agrawal, Hans-Jürgen Bandelt, Qing-Peng Kong, Faisal Khan, Cheng-Ye Wang, Tapas Kumar Chaudhuri, Venkatramana Palla, Ya-Ping Zhang *These authors contributed equally to this article.
2004
Subcontinental ancestry of the most basal Eurasian/Oceanian branches of the mtDNA phylogeny. South Asian and western Eurasian haplogroups are defined as described in the present study; for East Asian haplogroups, see Kong et al. (2003); for haplogroup P, see Forster et al. (2001); O and S are newly defined here on the basis of the data from Ingman and Gyllensten (2003). Potential coalescences based only on a single highly variable site are disregarded.
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Molecular phylogeography of Palearctic and Nearctic ciscoes DV Politov, JW Bickham, JC Patton - Annales Zoologici Fennici,
The A-group and its central haplotype AU12239 dominate all American populations by frequency. The basal haplotype of this lineage (AU12239) is separated from the basal Eurasian haplotype (AU1) by a distance of 6 pairwise difference
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Human Mitochondrial DNA and the Evolution of Homo sapiens By Hans-Jürgen Bandelt, Martin Richards, Vincent Macaulay
posted
Nice find. I need to read myself but based upon what you posted, the key points are:
Quote: 1. Alternatively, evidence for gene flow between the Near East and Africa 32, and African morphology in pre-farming Natufians 33 from Israel, may also be consistent with the population representing a LATER movement of humans out of Africa and into the Near East.****(later movement = Saharans)****
Seem like I am not the only one that have a problem with the label BASAL EURASIAN.
Quote 2. We should caution that this population is termed “Basal Eurasian” on account of its phylogenetic position in the model
Quote 3. Finally, it could reflect continuing more recent gene flows between the Near East and nearby Africa after the initial out-of-Africa dispersal, perhaps associated with the spread of Y-chromosome haplogroup E subclades from eastern Africa(This what DNATribe speculated)
In the first version. Basal Eurasian is closer to Yoruba.
Quote 4. Basal Eurasians share with other Eurasians most of the (Mbuti->non_African).
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posted
So Basal Eurasian could be y-DNA hg-E as evidenced by Natufians
They already speculated that Yoruba has closer connection to Basal Eurasian throug the Bedoiun Proxy. (not)MButi...and San who is an older population.
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posted
Many readers do NOT realize some of these models are hypothetical and based upon statistical models.
TreeMix and other software can determine "direction" but it is rarely used.
At first glance it does NOT look like there is any new revelations.
Spin- Why call it "basal Eurasian" if it is East Afrian Farmers genetic material.
== Quote: Note that Basal Eurasian and a few other names are "ghost" i.e., statistic derived, hypothetical, i.e., model populations.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] They are trying to JUSTIFY the label "Basal Eurasian". Don't you get that?
do I have to go into the other threads to quote your infatuation with the Basal Eurasian concept ?
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Just finished reading it. First Pass. Nothing really much different to the first version.
It looks like Lazaridis is reading my post and taking notes also, LOL! He is backing off the label “Baaal Eurasian”. Really?! Why call it “basal Eurasian”. It represent recent "African" genetic material plus it is not "Basal". WHG/ENE entered Europe first. That should be labeled “basal”.
1. As I said TREEMIX is the tool used to determine “direction”. But, ADMIXTURE is best used to determine relatedness or clustering. That is why “related” is a better word than admixed or “ancestry “ SNP. The layman reads the word "ancestry" and assumes it means eg North Africans are admixed with Europeans. Yes they do have some similar SNP make-up to Europeans but they are indigenous Africans because of their Haplogroups.
2. Of Europeans, Sardinians are closest to these older populations.
Why is that Beyoku? Tic! Toc!
==== Quotes from the study.
As suggested previously for Basal Eurasians, we caution against a too literal reading of terminology, as the spatial and temporal distribution of the populations associated with the nodes of the model are still incompletely known
Conclusion The TreeMix analyses on genotype and sequence data agree with each other and with ADMIXTUREGRAPH (SI14) and MixMapper (SI15) in inferring the major events discussed in this paper (Basal Eurasian admixture into early farmers, MA1 admixture into Native Americans, and Ancient North Eurasian admixture into Motala). The TreeMix analysis also raises additional possibilities about further gene flows. These should be possible to investigate further as UDG-treated data become available from southern European samples related to LaBrana and the Iceman.
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We used the TreeMix1 software to develop models of population relationships that also allow for multiple admixture events. TreeMix takes as input SNP genotype data from any number of populations, and then identifies a phylogenetic tree incorporating a specified number of admixture events that minimizes the difference between the observed and predicted f-statistics.
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We used the TreeMix1 software to develop models of population relationships that also allow for multiple admixture events. TreeMix takes as input SNP genotype data from any number of populations, and then identifies a phylogenetic tree incorporating a specified number of admixture events that minimizes the difference between the observed and predicted f-statistics. A limitation of TreeMix—along with the MixMapper method (SI15)—is that it does not allow users to explicitly specify models of population relationships and formally test the goodness of their fit to data. An advantage of TreeMix and MixMapper is that they are unsupervised procedures, and hence are ***less vulnerable*** to the concern that the **prior expectations about human history*** of the researchers using them will **bias** the results. Unsupervised methods can also be used to infer models of relationships for more populations than ADMIXTUREGRAPH, as ADMIXTUREGRAPH requires manual exploration of model space (SI14). Here we apply TreeMix both to Human Origins genotype data and to whole genome sequence data2.
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No present-day West Eurasians form a clade with either Loschbour or Stuttgart {/b] We attempted to fit each individual West Eurasian population in turn as [b]simple clades with Loschbour or Stuttgart. We did not expect this to be possible on the basis of Fig. 1B which shows that none of them cluster with the ancient samples, except possibly Sardinians. However f3-statistics indicate widespread admixture appear in nearly all West Eurasians (SI11) and we show in SI12 that at least 3 source populations are needed for present-day Europeans. Consistent with this evidence, we find that no West Eurasian populations form clades with either Loschbour or Stuttgart, suggesting that these ancient individuals belonged to populations that no longer exist in unadmixed form.
====
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posted
I have been all over this from the beginning. The label "basal Eurasian+ was deliberately chosen to mis-lead readers. I said it from the start. The genetic material is recent African.
Basal Eurasian=Saharans maybe Luhya. West of the Nile.
The authors did NOT want to use an African affliliated label. So they came up with "basal Eurasian".
They may be liberal scientist but they still harbor some racist beliefs. Still want to make it seem Europeans are important.
End of Story.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] They are trying to JUSTIFY the label "Basal Eurasian". Don't you get that?
do I have to go into the other threads to quote your infatuation with the Basal Eurasian concept ?
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posted
Anyone who have read it. Checkout the supplemenatls with the TreeMix charts. Notice they used MButi as the base African group and NOT Yoruba as you would expect them to. Mbuti has a >50K year seperation from Yoruba.
However they were still surprised. Even the Mbuti shows genetic input to Stuttgart woman meaning...ancestry to "basal Eurasian". The Yoruban would showed markedly more input to basal Eurasian. LOL!
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posted
At K3 is the “West Eurasian” component but ALL Africans carry it. Are these researchers idiots or just blind racist. Do you now understand the color code Beyoku?
Quote: For our main analyses, we identified a set of West Eurasian (European and Near Eastern) populations as those that had maximum membership of the West Eurasian ancestral population at K=3 (Fig. S9.4). Restricting to the 59 present-day populations (“simple” naming scheme), this is 777 individuals. This count differs from the 781 West Eurasian individuals reported in Table S9.3, as some populations that are geographically African (North African Jewish groups) cluster with West Eurasians in ADMIXTURE analysis, while some groups that are geographically West Eurasian have substantial African (e.g., Yemen) or East Eurasian (e.g., Nogai) ancestry. The list of 64 populations that are classified as West Eurasian in this way (include 5 ancient samples indicated in italics) is as follows:
Yeah. Yoruban have “West Eurasian” ancestry. LOL! Quote: Eliminating populations with any West Eurasian admixture whatsoever is DIFFICULT in view of recent results that even Sub-Saharan Africans6 possess a trace of such ancestry.
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posted
Here is a thought! - if essentially ALL AFRICANs carry the genetic material then it is NOT Eurasian. LOL!
To those who are missing the salient point. Lazaridis just agreed with DNATribes.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Here is a thought! - if essentially ALL AFRICANs carry the genetic material then it is NOT Eurasian. LOL!
To those who are missing the salient point. Lazaridis just agreed with DNATribes.
Orrrrrrr, all Africans are Eurasian.
It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
It's not amazing at all, it's pretty common, especially in recent time (with ease of transportation, population expansion due to agriculture, foreign conquests and colonisation) for neighboring regions to exhibit traces of bi-directional gene-flows between the different regions. The contrary would be surprising.
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posted
You like the simple things in life? Don't you? I can tell. A meat and potatoes kind of guy.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
It's not amazing at all, it's pretty common, especially in recent time (with ease of transportation, population expansion due to agriculture, foreign conquests and colonisation) for neighboring regions to exhibit traces of bi-directional gene-flows between the different regions. The contrary would be surprising.
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posted
Yeah. Yoruban have “West Eurasian” ancestry. LOL! Maybe AMRTU should follow-up on reference #6
== Quote from the study:
Eliminating populations with any West Eurasian admixture whatsoever is DIFFICULT in view of recent results that even Sub-Saharan Africans6 possess a trace of such ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Here is a thought! - if essentially ALL AFRICANs carry the genetic material then it is NOT Eurasian. LOL!
To those who are missing the salient point. Lazaridis just agreed with DNATribes.
Orrrrrrr, all Africans are Eurasian.
It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
FYI- LOL! .This recent study now proposes that Sub-Saharans/Yorubans now have Neanderthal Admixture. BTW other researchers conclude it is NOT Neanderthal admixture but internal African sub-structure.
So. Sorry. No buses, trains and railcars giving Europeans men access into inner Africa to copulate with the women. He! He! ------- 6. Prufer, K. et al. The complete genome sequence of a Neanderthal from the Altai Mountains. Nature 505, 43-49, (2014).
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You like the simple things in life? Don't you? I can tell. A meat and potatoes kind of guy.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
It's not amazing at all, it's pretty common, especially in recent time (with ease of transportation, population expansion due to agriculture, foreign conquests and colonisation) for neighboring regions to exhibit traces of bi-directional gene-flows between the different regions. The contrary would be surprising.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
It's not amazing at all, it's pretty common, especially in recent time (with ease of transportation, population expansion due to agriculture, foreign conquests and colonisation) for neighboring regions to exhibit traces of bi-directional gene-flows between the different regions. The contrary would be surprising.
I was being sarcastic, because in all actuality it's BS.
And Africans are limited to Hg E and Hg L, right?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
It's not amazing at all, it's pretty common, especially in recent time (with ease of transportation, population expansion due to agriculture, foreign conquests and colonisation) for neighboring regions to exhibit traces of bi-directional gene-flows between the different regions. The contrary would be surprising.
I was being sarcastic, because in all actuality it's BS.
And Africans are limited to Hg E and Hg L, right?
If you were being sarcastic then are you are being ignorant and stupid. Denying what is evident for everybody else is ridiculous.
African haplogroups are A, B and E for Y-DNA and L for MtDNA. It doesn't mean African populations are not admixed at various degree with other non-African populations (and haplogroups) like any population in the world. Haplogroups are just a mean to trace and follow those migrations path through time.
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
It's not amazing at all, it's pretty common, especially in recent time (with ease of transportation, population expansion due to agriculture, foreign conquests and colonisation) for neighboring regions to exhibit traces of bi-directional gene-flows between the different regions. The contrary would be surprising.
I was being sarcastic, because in all actuality it's BS.
And Africans are limited to Hg E and Hg L, right?
If you were being sarcastic then are you are being ignorant and stupid. Denying what is evident for everybody else is ridiculous.
African haplogroups are A, B and E for Y-DNA and L for MtDNA. It doesn't mean African populations are not admixed at various degree with other non-African populations (and haplogroups) like any population in the world. Haplogroups are just a mean to trace and follow those migrations path through time.
Really?
So explain how it's possible the African component remained Hg L solely? And never went beyond the mutation of L?
And so it's for Hg E. And why for example isn't Y-DNA Hg R African?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Trollkillah's right. If hunter gatherers left Africa and later wanted to return home it would be impossbile to find their way back to Africa. They would need compasses or some type of navigational gear
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah's right. If hunter gatherers left Africa and later wanted to return home it would be impossbile to find their way back to Africa. They would need compasses or some type of navigational gear
And this is just one group, the actual claims are that multiple groups have "returned to Africa". And these "returnees" spread all over Africa, quickly too, yet it took native Africans tens and thousands of years in the multi-regional concept, to move from one place to another within Africa itself.
I urge people to do a dropping test, in the middle of Africa, without modern day tools, and navigate from one place to another. Let's say from central Africa to the South, the North, East or West. No modern tools etc... allowed. Strictly hunter gatherers tools and way.
In fact I urge these "scientists" who claim all these "back migrations" to do this dropping test as described above, in the previous column. To see if their BtA concept is approved.
Thus far, I have always see them travel with local people, who give them guidance. Yet, they have the never to write this shyt behind their desks. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah's right. If hunter gatherers left Africa and later wanted to return home it would be impossbile to find their way back to Africa. They would need compasses or some type of navigational gear
And this is just one group, the actual claims are that multiple groups have "returned to Africa". And these "returnees" spread all over Africa, quickly too, yet it took native Africans tens and thousands of years in the multi-regional concept, to move from one place to another within Africa itself.
I urge people to do a dropping test, in the middle of Africa, without modern day tools, and navigate from one place to another. Let's say from central Africa to the South, the North, East or West. No modern tools etc... allowed. Strictly hunter gatherers tools and way.
In fact I urge these "scientists" who claim all these "back migrations" to do this dropping test as described above, in the previous column. To see if their BtA concept is approved.
Thus far, I have always see them travel with local people, who give them guidance. Yet, they have the never to write this shyt behind their desks.
Nice Ish Gebor.
Always laugh when I see these documentaries about countries or the desert, and these braniacs are talking about the desert and people travelling all around Africa blah blah blah, yet they have guides and trucks yet if the guides left them...they would be as lost as a Farmer in the middle of Manhattan.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: FYI- LOL! .This recent study now proposes that Sub-Saharans/Yorubans now have Neanderthal Admixture. BTW other researchers conclude it is NOT Neanderthal admixture but internal African sub-structure.
So. Sorry. No buses, trains and railcars giving Europeans men access into inner Africa to copulate with the women. He! He! ------- 6. Prufer, K. et al. The complete genome sequence of a Neanderthal from the Altai Mountains. Nature 505, 43-49, (2014).
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You like the simple things in life? Don't you? I can tell. A meat and potatoes kind of guy.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: It's amazing how everybody in Africa has Eurasian mixture.
It's not amazing at all, it's pretty common, especially in recent time (with ease of transportation, population expansion due to agriculture, foreign conquests and colonisation) for neighboring regions to exhibit traces of bi-directional gene-flows between the different regions. The contrary would be surprising.
The story is deeper than you think,
British Anthropologist Jeremy Keenan on The Dark Sahara America's War on Terror in Africa
posted
What is really fascinating is that the Sandawe and Hadza carry more "non-African" genetic material than AFRAMS!!!! Which proves even further that ALL these genetic material is African origin.
DNATribes got the African origin correct but the population may not be the Nilo-Saharans. The Hadza and Sandawe and far south.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: What is really fascinating is that the Sandawe and Hadza carry more "non-African" genetic material than AFRAMS!!!! Which proves even further that ALL these genetic material is African origin.
DNATribes got the African origin correct but the population may not be the Nilo-Saharans. The Hadza and Sandawe and far south.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah's right. If hunter gatherers left Africa and later wanted to return home it would be impossbile to find their way back to Africa. They would need compasses or some type of navigational gear
LOL. Its not that they would need navigation tools so much as a reason to return to Africa., i.e., did the weather/climate change? Was there am invasion?
No matter the cause of the back migration, it would be supported by archaeological evidence for changes in the material culture of a hunter gather population. This change would involve bringing some of the new tools and minerals used to make the tools, arrows etc., of European manufacture back to Africa with them.
We just have archaeological evidence of tools being taken out of Africa into Europe, not the other way around. We see people exiting Africa to find new places to settle in Europe, and can make the inference that genes that appear in Europe today, may have expanded across Africa before the various OoA exits.
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posted
Thanks TP. Always on the ball. I was looking for this table. To see where the Hadza and Sandwe fit into all of this. They are suppose to be one of the most ancient and isolated East African groups.
I wanted to compare their mtDNA Haplogroup with the "basal Eurasian" SNP genetic material.
It is really astonishing that they carry such higher frequency than AFRAM.
The picture that is unfolding is becoming clearer. It is imdeed African substructure.
What is also surprising is that the dreaded West African Yoruba Bantus are part of the Sub-structure that "left" Africa.
Anyone has anything on the Taa and Ju Huang groups of Africa???? They seem to be the few African groups WITHOUT "Basal Eurasian" AND "East Asian" genetic material. Who are they people?
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: What is really fascinating is that the Sandawe and Hadza carry more "non-African" genetic material than AFRAMS!!!! Which proves even further that ALL these genetic material is African origin.
DNATribes got the African origin correct but the population may not be the Nilo-Saharans. The Hadza and Sandawe and far south.
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posted
Additionally. To those who understand this stuff - on the sub-structure hypothesis. @ K3 There are some far East Asian groups which carry “trace” amounts African genetic material. Even the Melanesian groups. This observation will imply ‘drift’ rather than “sub-structure”. On the other hand the Taa and similar groups carry no East Asian genetic material. Even at K2 a similar observation is made.
Of course no Chinese person took a train, plane or railcar into inner Africa mixing with the Hazda, Bantus etc (wink @ AMRTU)
What do you guys think? Is it sub-structure or drift.?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
@TP. You holding out on me babe? LOL! Looking at the Table you posted. Hadza II has a high frequency of ALL the major clades of the mtDNA African phyloTree!!!
Also ALL the sub-clades of L3 the unique L4g plus M and N. Wow!! The Turu carry a similar pattern. Wow! Wait up! Turus, Hadza II, Nigerians and Guineans carry a similar pattern. I am trying to correlate the “basal Eurasian” and “non-African” genetic material with the mtDNA haplogroups. These targeted groups carry “deep clades” AND “OOA” clades.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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But I am not familiar with these diffrent names of African ethnic groups.
But is the !kung , !Xun/Khwe, the same as Taa and Ju Huang ??? They have limited mtDNA HG variability and carry hg-L0* ONLY
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah's right. If hunter gatherers left Africa and later wanted to return home it would be impossbile to find their way back to Africa. They would need compasses or some type of navigational gear
And this is just one group, the actual claims are that multiple groups have "returned to Africa". And these "returnees" spread all over Africa, quickly too, yet it took native Africans tens and thousands of years in the multi-regional concept, to move from one place to another within Africa itself.
I urge people to do a dropping test, in the middle of Africa, without modern day tools, and navigate from one place to another. Let's say from central Africa to the South, the North, East or West. No modern tools etc... allowed. Strictly hunter gatherers tools and way.
In fact I urge these "scientists" who claim all these "back migrations" to do this dropping test as described above, in the previous column. To see if their BtA concept is approved.
Thus far, I have always see them travel with local people, who give them guidance. Yet, they have the never to write this shyt behind their desks.
If you simply follow the Mediterranean coastline it takes you out of Africa and then following it back takes you back into Africa
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Anyone has anything on the Taa and Ju Huang groups of Africa???? They seem to be the few African groups WITHOUT "Basal Eurasian" AND "East Asian" genetic material. Who are they people?
There is no material on Ju Huang groups of Africa because Ju Huang is a Chinese politican rather than an African tribe and he doesn't appear on the chart.
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posted
What sticks out from the table combined with the clustering at K2 and K3 is that the Sandwe and Hazda are although Khoisan groups are genetically very different to the Ju Huang and Taa. Any guesses on why? Tic! Toc! It all makes sense now.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah's right. If hunter gatherers left Africa and later wanted to return home it would be impossbile to find their way back to Africa. They would need compasses or some type of navigational gear
LOL. Its not that they would need navigation tools so much as a reason to return to Africa., i.e., did the weather/climate change? Was there am invasion?
No matter the cause of the back migration, it would be supported by archaeological evidence for changes in the material culture of a hunter gather population. This change would involve bringing some of the new tools and minerals used to make the tools, arrows etc., of European manufacture back to Africa with them.
We just have archaeological evidence of tools being taken out of Africa into Europe, not the other way around. We see people exiting Africa to find new places to settle in Europe, and can make the inference that genes that appear in Europe today, may have expanded across Africa before the various OoA exits.
The insertion on navigation is merely on one deployment. Of course other influences make people migrate as well, as you've listed. But the suggestion by several geneticists is multiple back migrations, so sarcastically I mentioned navigation. And as you have stated, tools of industries and cultures have been taken outside of Africa, not the other way around. I have posted a sum of these studies as well.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Trollkillah's right. If hunter gatherers left Africa and later wanted to return home it would be impossbile to find their way back to Africa. They would need compasses or some type of navigational gear
And this is just one group, the actual claims are that multiple groups have "returned to Africa". And these "returnees" spread all over Africa, quickly too, yet it took native Africans tens and thousands of years in the multi-regional concept, to move from one place to another within Africa itself.
I urge people to do a dropping test, in the middle of Africa, without modern day tools, and navigate from one place to another. Let's say from central Africa to the South, the North, East or West. No modern tools etc... allowed. Strictly hunter gatherers tools and way.
In fact I urge these "scientists" who claim all these "back migrations" to do this dropping test as described above, in the previous column. To see if their BtA concept is approved.
Thus far, I have always see them travel with local people, who give them guidance. Yet, they have the never to write this shyt behind their desks.
If you simply follow the Mediterranean coastline it takes you out of Africa and then following it back takes you back into Africa
Yes, that's the simplistic way of reasoning.
But, to some degree true. Thus making coastal North Africans carry more admixture. As we have always stated of the site.
However, archeological and anthropological evidence shows outgoing not incoming industries. Which brings us back to the multiple back migrations claim. During a time, when these Hg had small populations sets.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Use the Cluster chart above. It is clear the Taa, Ju Huoan and Naro has no "basal Eurasian". ALL other African groups carry "basal Eurasian" including Yorubas. Obviously the basal Eurasian "split" occured amounts the Khoisan click speakers. Their mtDNA lineage is L0*. It seems like the Sandawe related groups is ancestral to ALL AMH groups that carry "basal Eurasian" including indigenous Africans.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ........ Khoisan click speakers. Their mtDNA lineage is L0*. It seems like the
Source?
I have to thank TP for giving me the clue to crack the code. That Table she/he put up broke it wide open for me. I saw that table before. I remembered Dr. Winters and I discussed it when looking at mtDNA hg-M in Nigerians. That Sarah Tishkoff chart sealed the deal. Case closed. I always speculated the source for “non-African/Basal Eurasian” was NOT that far North on the Nile as DNATribes put it. Now it is clear to see that the source may be “a “ Khoisan near the Great Lakes.of Africa. Both the AIM and the haplogroup lineage confirms that.. They both align and corroborate each other. In case you did not get it Beyoku. Look at the chart TP posted with the Khoisan group. “My” Chart shows the division/grouping of the Khoisan groups. Only ONE group of Khoisan carry the “non-African/Basal Eurasian” AIM. Get it! got it!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Don’t get it. Lazaridis and his crew know fully well the “non-African-basal Eurasian” is the incorrect label since the AIM has an African(Great Lakes) origin. That is why he is trying to BS his way into justify the use of the label in version 2. He knew the label is wrong. If I can figure it out, they know it also.
DNATrbies flow chart is correct. “Nom-African” = “Basal Eurasian” OOA. All occurred WITHIN Africa. The location is NOT the Horn but further inland. At least that population now lives at the Great Lakes in Africa. This also aligns with the Amarna’s /Rameses III and DNA Tribis related regions of Great Lakes, South Africans(San) and West Africans. It also aligns with Sergi’s Great Lakes orgin for the EurAfrican and the Neolithics.
My guess, if I am a betting man, is, the Amarnas tested AIM profile, if published, will be very similar to Nama group and Rameses will be closer to the Sandwe/Hadza. See K2/K3 in Lazaridis et al This only means there were SIGNIFICANT population shifts over the last 5000years WITHIN AAfrica….also.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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