There are several old (mid-holocene?) R1b clades in coastal northwest Africa. We've already discussed that paper here.
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QUOTE "There are several old (mid-holocene?) R1b clades in coastal northwest Africa. We've already discussed that paper here."
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Swenet. Are you making shyte up again young man? lol!
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Fabricating what? Just read the Bekada paper, gramps. That way you don't have to be befuddled by R1b in coastal North African DNA again.
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As far as xyyman's question in the OP of this thread, the relevant part of the Bekada paper is fig 1. The coastal northwest Africans have low freq and patchy R1b lineages besides R-V88.
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Now you are catching on. You see even a blind squirrel find a nut. Lol! "Besides V88". So . .....in my OP, are they talking R1b V88 or something else ? ? You do have flashes of brilliance .lol!
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The relevant part of the paper is fig 1. The coastal northwest Africans have low freq and patchy R1b lineages besides R-V88.
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 as in the OP screenshot, you're more likely to detect them.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them.
what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first?
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them.
what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first?
Most likely scenario we have as far as where modern day North Africans get most or all of their R-V88 from:
"As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene."
Note that I said "modern day North Africans" and "MOST or ALL". I don't believe the V88 allele necessarily has to emerge in West/Central Africa. It is found in Iberia already dating to 5000BC. This early date (very close to its estimated age) kinda makes it seem unlikely that West/Central Africa was involved with this Iberian sample. Much more likely that he's an early North African R-V88 branch that never went south.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them.
what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first?
Most likely scenario we have as far as where North Africans get most or all of their R-V88 from:
"As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene."
The Siwa, I don't have the source, seem to carry it at much higher levels than Maghrebis. And this corresponds to their B-M109. It is strange how if that came from Cameroon then why it would not be a West to East gradient with Central Africans carrying more than Siwa. The coalescence date is serval thousand years whereas R1 is much older, supposedly. This before it even split into a, b and c. I think there is not enough information about this recently discovered V88 to be resolved
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quote: "I think there is not enough information about this recently discovered V88 to be resolved"
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Gradients can be diluted or disappear entirely by later population movements. In this case we know the Sahara dried up so there is no reason to expect much of a clean gradient in between the Siwa and West/Central Africa.
The isolated Dead Sea Jordanians also have elevated R-V88. So if they're a part of this gradient (as opposed to some other source of V88 that stayed in North Africa), the Siwa are just one place along this gradient, not the end point. And in that case, the gradient in between the Dead Sea Jordan population and Africans is also gone because they're a R-V88 'enclave' in the middle of populations with little to no R-V88.
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I am beginning to like you young man...... showing some smarts finally
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Gradients can be diluted or disappear entirely by later population movements. In this case we know the Sahara dried up so there is no reason to expect much of a clean gradient in between the Siwa and West/Central Africa.
The isolated Dead Sea Jordanians also have elevated R-V88. So if they're a part of this gradient (as opposed to some other source of V88 that stayed in North Africa), the Siwa are just one place along this gradient, not the end point.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Gradients can be diluted or disappear entirely by later population movements. In this case we know the Sahara dried up so there is no reason to expect much of a clean gradient in between the Siwa and West/Central Africa.
The isolated Dead Sea Jordanians also have elevated R-V88. So if they're a part of this gradient (as opposed to some other source of V88 that stayed in North Africa), the Siwa are just one place along this gradient, not the end point.
Swenet, populations in the Sahara / Sahel always knew the way up north and down south. With and without the drying of the Sahara region. No problem, it was never a problem. It has been like that for thousands of years.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them.
what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first?
Most likely scenario we have as far as where North Africans get most or all of their R-V88 from:
"As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene."
The Siwa, I don't have the source, seem to carry it at much higher levels than Maghrebis. And this corresponds to their B-M109. It is strange how if that came from Cameroon then why it would not be a West to East gradient with Central Africans carrying more than Siwa. The coalescence date is serval thousand years whereas R1 is much older, supposedly. This before it even split into a, b and c. I think there is not enough information about this recently discovered V88 to be resolved
As I said, you need to go back to the drawing table.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Can anyone help me out here?
Southern Libya has several ethnic groups who roam the region of Chad, Niger and Libya. And have been doing so for thousands of years. You should have looked at the references.
quote: Individual ancestry and population substructure were detectable with very high resolution. The relationship between haplotype heterozygosity and geography was consistent with the hypothesis of a serial founder effect with a single origin in sub-Saharan Africa. In addition, we observed a pattern of ancestral allele frequency distributions that reflects variation in population dynamics among geographic regions. This data set allows the most comprehensive characterization to date of human genetic variation.
--Li JZ1
Science. 2008 Feb 22;319(5866):1100-4. doi: 10.1126/science.1153717. Worldwide human relationships inferred from genome-wide patterns of variation.
posted
^The drying Sahara forced people out of the region with the gradient is what I'm saying. I didn't say any other subsequent migrations were impossible.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am beginning to like you young man......
I got this! Sources cited! Lol.
Yes. I love how I break it down, too. But did you READ the Bekada paper? You can't be out here looking befuddled every time you find a North African sample with R1b.
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What? you fugking with me young man. "befuddled". Anyways.
In the Bekada 2013 paper - I have to admit sometimes it is a good idea to rehash these old subjects. Taking another look at the data , can anyone correct me? Are these Native American LINEAGE I am seeing throughout North Africa? Why Am I asking? The new paper on pre-colonial Canary Islanders or was it on Cape Verde also showed Native American ancestry lineage. What does it all mean? Tic! Tic! Toc!
I remember the author made up a story about the person who carried the Native American Ancestry had fore-parents that came from the Americas....supposedly. Now a lot of Americans migrated back-to-Africa. Lol!
But seriously. Implications? Hint. Are we back to land bridges this time across the Atlantic or Africans sailing across the Atlantic or OOA occurring much later than we are told and NOT along the same path as we are led to believe.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: In the Bekada 2013 paper - I have to admit sometimes it is a good idea to rehash these old subjects. Taking another look at the data , can anyone correct me? Are these Native American LINEAGE I am seeing throughout North Africa? Why Am I asking? The new paper on pre-colonial Canary Islanders or was it on Cape Verde also showed Native American ancestry lineage. What does it all mean? Tic! Tic! Toc!
I remember the author made up a story about the person who carried the Native American Ancestry had fore-parents that came from the Americas....supposedly. Now a lot of Americans migrated back-to-Africa. Lol!
But seriously. Implications? Hint. Are we back to land bridges this time across the Atlantic or Africans sailing across the Atlantic or OOA occurring much later than we are told and NOT along the same path as we are led to believe.
Well, that could indicate two things. That during the Trans Atlantic slave trade Native Americans indeed made a turn to Africa. As mixed or unmixed with freed Africans.
Or that, prior to the Trans Atlantic slave trade indeed Africans had contact with Amerindians. Depending on the founder?
The second will never be accepted if so.
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But did you READ the Bekada paper? You can't be out here looking befuddled every time you find a North African sample with R1b.
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